Passage West
The leaders of the United Irishmen Rebellion, but only one Catholic amongst them – Dr William James MacNevin, sitting centre with scroll in his hand; perhaps it was the statement he was required to make in exchange for his life.
In a sane world, there must be a limit to what a person would sacrifice for their country – witness the poll taken at a recent Ard Fheis when a poll was taken of committed Sinn Fein supporters on the subject of a United Ireland. Predictably, 96% of delegates were in favour of it but that dropped to a surprising 66% if they thought they had to pay for it viz, have a drop in their living standards, what with thecollapse of the Celtic Tiger
Here is the beginnings of a template for the Duffy’s Cut project for ready reference, mostly spaces at present which will soon be filled.
HOT NEWS
If you like the content of this site, treat yourself to the ebook ‘The Sea is Wide – New Celts from Old Horizons’ which is now available at no cost as a fundraising effort for a Derry-based but world-wide children’s charity (£2.00 minimum donation to Children in Crossfire would be most welcome).
http://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/75880/120/the-sea-is-wide-new-celts-from-old-horizons
Eileen Breen
June 17, 2013 at 12:04 pm
Did everyone see President Obama at the Pre Economic G8 Summit in Belfast encouraging to keep peace in Northern Ireland? He seemed to be warmly received by the students.
Waxwing
June 18, 2013 at 6:06 am
It was indeed a very inspirational oration, described by local NI commentators as almost evangelical. His warm-up act, Michele, wasn’t half-bad either. Reading between the lines, Obama believes he has not been able to galvanise back home in the US the level of joint effort from opposing forces that he praised so highly as forces for good in NI? A prophet in his own country etc?
Reading also some of the political columns from Washington, Obama is not as good at reaching out to people at a personal level and through networking as he is with his speechifying? Maybe he has something to learn after all from the likes of Martin McGuinness. Certainly, Obama’s snubbing of Gordon Brown when he was PM and visited Washington did not go unnoticed. Brown was rattling around for several days before Obama would meet with him and Obama’s manner was distinctly cool when they finally met. Also, the customary sharing of gifts was quite naff and bizarre – a box of CDs?
I was also very curious about the somewhat sanitised and potted history lesson Obama included in his speech. And also in what exactly the likes of McGuinness and Adams in the audience would take out of it – peacebuilders, were they? So, start a civil war, then do a U-turn and that makes you look like Mandela? As they say in NI, ‘Give my head peace’. Those kids’ history teachers will have their work cut out explaining it all afterwards.
Eileen Breen
June 18, 2013 at 2:53 pm
Obama’s speech: I did find it a bit odd he felt he needed to give NI a pat on the back and keep up the good work even though the US human rights record is poor in other countries around the world at best. There is still a lot of racism in our country and he could use some lessons from NI on how to deal with it. Why did he snub Gordon Brown PM? I’m still fascinated at the peace process.
Waxwing
June 18, 2013 at 6:04 pm
The ‘official’ reason for the snub was the British decision to release the Lockerbie bomber. In truth, Brown was a bit of a grouch anyway and not the most charming company.
Eileen Breen
June 16, 2013 at 12:27 pm
In Ontario in 1832 there was a 60.6% increase in Irish emigrants to Ontario. The government took notice and the Irish question was in the forefront. Other concerns was the Orange Order, Mechanics Order, Oddfellows and the Pandemic.
Eileen Breen
June 16, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Perhaps the passage to Canada was much cheaper than the fare to Philadelphia. Also the Masons encouraged apprentices that their fair would be paid if they worked on a farm or cleared forests in Canada. As Mary said the Ship Passenger Act also made traveling to US more expensive in order to curb the poor and destitute Irish emigrants from traveling to US unless they had money to travel and become established. Still millions of the destitute ended up on the Gulf OF St Lawrence in dire conditions and millions perished. The Victoria Bridge has a memorial to the 10,000 people who died and were buried in mass graves at the bridge.
Waxwing
June 16, 2013 at 2:50 pm
According to the piece that Mary found on the New Emigrant Bill, an increased tarriff was being imposed on direct sailings to Canada, whereas a passage to New York and thence to Quebec was to work out cheaper but this was not in place in time for the 1832 season.
maccarleo
June 16, 2013 at 6:09 pm
According to this editorial, nearly half of those coming into Canada headed south into the States; though there was an opposite flow from the States into Canada, those numbers were not nearly as many as those immigrants coming into the States from Canada.
http://www.theshipslist.com/Forms/emigration1830.shtml
maccarleo
June 16, 2013 at 6:29 pm
St. Lawrence Steamship Co. Passenger Records-
In 1831 and 1832, the John Molson carried an incredible numbers of passengers into the States. There is one voyage carrying over 1000 passengers. Utterly amazing that it did not capsize. After a close call, they dropped the number of passengers to 600, but, of course, then raised fares.
maccarleo
June 16, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Forgot to add-
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/passengerlists/1819_36stlawrence.shtml
Eileen Breen
June 16, 2013 at 12:22 pm
I looked again at McPhilemy and Leitch families. The names appear in PA and Ontario. There are a lot of choices for some of the names. I couldn’t find the families together.
Eileen Breen
June 16, 2013 at 12:19 pm
The ships that Corscaden, Munn and a few others owned ships that went from Derry to St John’s New Brunswick. One was the Royal William. Under Corscaden’s profie on Ancestry the ships they owned are listed. I learned this from family members researching Corscaden. McCorkle’s ships did the cross channel from Derry to England and from Derry to Philadelphia.
Eileen Breen
June 15, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Perhaps we can check our waxwings in Toronto and Quebec and see if we get anything.
Waxwing
June 15, 2013 at 3:37 pm
If you have the Canadian Ancestry as well that would be great. Perhaps if you limit yourself to super-waxwing names I posted yesterday in the first instance?
Eileen Breen
June 15, 2013 at 8:21 pm
I wonder why they chose to travel to Ontario or Toronto by land instead of going to St John New Brunswick by boat which would have been much shorter. It would have been very similar to Derry. Or if Toronto was the intended destination why not travel to NY or Boston then up to Canada? This was at least a 3 month journey by land. Perhaps Canada actively recruited in Philadelphia. The Pandemic also occurred in Canada but probably less in Ontario and Toronto as it was away from the coast.
Waxwing
June 15, 2013 at 10:38 pm
I don’t know if there was any traffic from PA to Toronto – it is only conjecture on my part. Again it’s back to reliability of sources. The Irish Times website gives details of ships that left Ireland but it has none shown going from Derry to anywhere other than New York, Wilmington and Philadelphia. My gut tells me this cannot be right as most of the McCorkell ships were built in New Brunswick so why were there no recorded sailings to there? Sailings to Quebec for Toronto, I guess, do make better sense as they avoided an overland trail in favour of a sailing down the St Lawrence River. A case in point being from Ballyshannon in Donegal in April 1832
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/passengerlists/danoconnell1832.shtml
Once I get a chance to look at the local papers of the period I will make a note of all the ships that left from Ulster for North America in 1832.
maccarleo
June 16, 2013 at 5:21 am
Arrivals at the Port of Quebec-1832
Eileen and I have previously gone over these lists. From May to November, there were a large number of settlers arriving in Quebec from Ireland. They departed from nearly every port in Ireland and Northern Ireland.
There is also an article on the New Emigrant Bill that may have affected immigration to Canada, but it seems that immigration into Quebec seems to be on par with Philadelphia.
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/Arrivals/1832a.shtml
Waxwing
June 16, 2013 at 7:45 am
According to Prof Akenson, Canada was twice as popular as the US as a destination during the period in question. He also scotches the suggestion (but without evidence, therefore it is only his opinion) that Protestant Irish preferred Canada as it was a British colony, Catholic Irish preferred the US for the same reason. Our waxwings were 60% Protestant which supports Akenson’s point.
So what drew Irish emigrants to the US when Canada was all the rage in 1832?
Looking at your article, the ships from Ulster (Belfast and Newry mostly) to Quebec were:
Catherine – 157 settlers (note, not passengers or emigrants)
Earl of Aberdeen – 270
Quintin Leitch – 396
Bolivar – 279
Mary – 205
Clyde – 280
Betsy Miller -124
Sophia – 300 (from Derry)
Mary Anne – 252 (from Derry)
Greenhow – 179
Constitution – 106
Altogether that was around 3.5 thousand ‘settlers’ sailed from Ulster for Quebec during the first two weeks of April 1832 – our waxwings were a drop in the bucket compared to that. So there must have been some specific reason that drew the waxwings to PA. Also, this Canadian Ships List may appear to knock on the head my speculation that they were en route to Canada.
So full circle? These waxwings did not appear in the US records but, despite the rarity of these names, the same names turning up in Canadian records are different people? Or perhaps not. They may have become disillusioned with the US, they knew their compatriots had settled in droves in Canada, they did not wish to head back against the flow to Ireland, and they headed to New York to catch a ship to Quebec?
Waxwing
June 16, 2013 at 10:30 am
Ships from Derry to Delaware 1831-32
Interestingly, there were many ships, referred to oddly as Famine Ships although it was during the pre-Famine period, that left from Ulster for Wilmington DE in 1831-32, some from Derry.
Many of the waxwing names travelled on these ships and they disembarked just short of Philadelphia at Wilmington. Here are just a sample (numbers in brackets), and so it goes on.
Allison (3)
Arthur (5)
Barber (1)
Barton (2)
Bole (1)
Brisland (2)
Carrigan (1)
Creighton (3)
Culbertson (3)
Diamond (3)
Doak (7)
The rest of the waxwing names landing in Wilmington within the same period can be found at:
http://www.lalley.com/
This broadens the sample of waxwing names that can be searched for in Ancestry or wherever to test the Watson hypothesis that ‘absence of evidence means evidence of absence’. The possibilities are never-ending.
Eileen Breen
June 11, 2013 at 12:03 pm
Thanks Mary, interesting breakdown of males VS females on all the ships. Seems like when males were sent to Australia, the men went first then the woman followed. Perhaps the parent came to Philadelphia first then sent for the children or perhaps children were taken from workhouses. Although the workhouses were only 25% filled at this time.
Eileen Breen
June 11, 2013 at 12:11 pm
Woman at this time didn’t have the right to own property, work, own a business, inherit her husband’s estate or have custody of her own children. So men had the means to establish himself and send for the family later.
Eileen Breen
June 14, 2013 at 12:37 am
John Stamp had only three ‘Spinsters’. In the 1500s the only job an unmarried woman could legally get was as a spinner. Women were spinners,hence the name spinsters. The term later came to mean an unmarried woman who was past their prime and their age took them out of the marriage range.
Sarah Long, Tyrone (24), Jane Long, Tyrone (21) and Eliza Diven (Diver), Donegal (20) were all spinsters and travelled with a male. Maybe the term single or married was more politically correct but the manifest appears to be written by the same person.
Students included Bernard O’Neill, Tyrone, (25), Daniel O’Neill, Tyrone (18) and William Anderson, Tyrone (22). Widows included Catherine B (SP), Tyrone (29), Catherine Craig, Tyrone (60), Catherine McAnemy (SP), Tyrone (60) and Madge McClauson (SP), Tyrone (50). Single men were two in number, aged 18 and 22 yrs; single women were eight in number, from Donegal, Tyrone and Derry (one woman was aged 52 yr; six women were in their twenties).
The males were listed by their occupation, if any, and not by their relationship status. Two women were listed as weavers (spinners was the more appropriate term)Mand they were attached to a male weaver – Mary Campbell from Derry (20) and Hester McCrory from Tyrone (18). Weavers included 24 males. The males (ages 16-55) were from Monaghan (1) and the rest from Tyrone and Derry. Unmarried were two males and 21 females (ages 14-26). Married (from Donegal, Tyrone and Derry) were females aged 17-56.
Woman classified: Single, widow, unmarried, spinster, weaver regardless of age and rarely had an occupation listed except for two women.
http://www.billmacafee.com/1860griffiths/derrygriffiths.pdf
men were classified as single, married or unmarried students and their occupations were; laborers, weavers, shoemaker, blacksmith and farmer. Children were thirteen in number, from: Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh and Leitrim, aged 1-11.
Eileen Breen
June 6, 2013 at 11:47 am
I tried a few times to look up the name Knox. It seems like a popular name. I don’t think the one I found is correct. On the manifest for the Asia: Knox family: ? Sarah or Susan? and her husband (can’t read it), Children: Hugh,, Sarah, John and Margaret. I tried to see if anyone is looking for them but I haven’t found them yet. I didn’t get a chance to look into other states. One another tree we have we have someone w/ the first name Knox. This name doesn’t sound Irish? The children’s names sound British?
Waxwing
June 6, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Anytime, either of you feels like adding info you have found on any of the waxwings, feel free to cut and paste any of it under the waxwings’ names in the new website.
The way the website pages are set up is by ship as you can see. If you double-click or firmly tick a ship, all the waxwing names for that ship will appear on a list.
If you then go to the search window, which I have discovered is very efficient in this particular website, and punch in the selected name it will pop up as a separate reply window (just like that!).
In essence, what will then emerge is a uniform database rather than random postings such as we have had up till now. It will not be able to do statistics but it will be handy for easy reference. If you follow the format that I have set out for Catherine Allison, tbat will be better still.
Eileen Breen
June 6, 2013 at 9:28 pm
If you want to save anything on ancestry you have to download it to a CD or a memory stick. They only save everything for a few months after you stop subscribing. The posts you make may be out there forever. Also if someone else copies your info it may also be out there for a while. They do have charts and books you can make.
Eileen Breen
June 9, 2013 at 12:37 pm
I tried to look up the waxwing children from John Stamp and Asia again. From the Find-a-Grave PA, John and Margaret Donaghy are listed in the same plot; in the Philadelphia section there is a # 1087. There also a Robert H. and John in the Washington section # 178. The name Robert H. Donaghy doesn’t seem to match.
If on the Find-a-Grave site you click on the cemetery name you can see how many people are making a photo request for a certain person. You can also type in a name to search.
FFT: we should be looking at at least three other sites for each name and compare it to Sncestry.com before we say Ancestry is not working? There are a lot of people with the same same: Hugh Knox, Christy (both male and female) Crawford, Donaghy, Riddle, Isabella Johnston and Hannah McGuire.
Waxwing
June 10, 2013 at 6:21 am
It occurs to me that we don’t need to have certainty about the identity of those being searched for. All that is needed is a statistical difference between the ‘John Stamp’ subjects and the non-JS subjects. If the search narrowed down subjects but did not not definitively identify them, that is fine – the completion is for any interested parties, such as living relatives, to do.
To expand on this further; if the ratio of identified subject to possibly identified (‘other choices’) – given that they must satisfy the search criteria and Ancestry is quite sloppy in this regard – between the two groups is the same, that says something about the speculative nature of the Watson conclusions. If the ratios are different, that gives some evidence for the Watsons. Either way, it takes pressure off us having to look for needles in haystacks, given the unreliability or inaccessibility of the sources of information. If the subjects are broken down by waxwingness (expressed in percentages) and the ratios are comparable across the groups (or not as the case may be), that refines the test further.
What it boils down to is this. If the waxwing names are comparable with regards to distinctiveness in both groups but cannot be located in the JS group and can be located in the other group with some order of probability even if not certainty – that favours the Watson camp. So, we are dealing with odds rather than certainties.
We should call off searches for the present till I get the Exel sheet ready. I will then complete the above exercise for a test-sample of subjects, entering the values (with explanations) into the spreadsheet to demonstrate what I mean. If we definitely find some people that is a bonus but not a necessity.
Clear as mud?
Waxwing
June 14, 2013 at 7:04 pm
Super-waxwing names of all four ships were
Leitch
McPhelimy – Arrival data only on US records. For a waxwing name, it became very plentiful in North America (US and Canada) due to chain migration from Londonderry.
Peoples – Arrival data only
McClay
Elder
Gilfillan – Arrival data only on US records.
Brigham – Arrival data only on US records.
Boal – Recorded as the Bole variant. Chain migration, mostly to Ontario, Canada.
Patchill – Arrival only.
Risk – Arrival only.
McGhee
McGettigan – Arrival only.
Doak – Arrival only.
Ewing – Death certificate of a sea captain of the same name.
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=PAChurchTownRecords&h=6297929&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=2535
Ballantine – discovered by Eileen and recorded in Family Tree
Sterling – Arrival data only
Snodgrass – Arrival data only
Menagh – Arrival data only
McNutt – Arrival data only
Edgar – Arrival data only
McIlwaine – Arrival data only
Fergey – Getting off to a good start, Ancestry.com has located Andrew (Rew) Fergey who married Margret, a New Yorker, who was fourteen years younger and they settled as small-time farmers in Franklin, New York (just North of Scranton PA) where they had a son, Grant, and a grandson, Fred.
1. Fergey Census Record
2. Fergey Land Record
Waxwing
June 14, 2013 at 8:13 pm
Snodgrass
Perhaps not the same James Snodgrass as two years younger (?) but almost certainly related as there were only twenty Snodgrass households in Ireland and they were all in North-West Ulster.
James Snodgrass Civil War Record
Waxwing
June 15, 2013 at 8:51 am
Perhaps a flight of fancy, but I am getting an impression that the true destination of a percentage of these waxwings was Toronto in Canada and that they were simply flights of passage through Philadelphia. Toronto to Philly is about the same distance as Derry to Cork in Ireland so that distance would not be offputting if it was a well-trodden path. Likewise, PA to Toronto would appear to be a shorter distance than Boston or Quebec (the alternative ports of arrival) to Toronto.
I don’t have the international version of Ancestry so I can’t currently check as I have only trawled US records up till now. Ancestry has no relevance to Ireland as I can chase down Irish records anyway without its ‘help’. I have another suspicion that Toronto was not the ultimate destination either and it was simply a stopping-off point for Ontario. Ontario has 16% of its population as of Irish descent, superceded only by the Canadian Maritime Provinces which has 25%.
Waxwing
June 15, 2013 at 2:39 pm
Interesting Immigration Figures for 1832
1832 was a peak year for emigration to North America from the British Isles, with twice as many going to Canada (over 66 thousand – a x5 increase from the 1820s) as to the US (over thirty thousand – a x2 increase from the 1820s). Half of the Canadian migrations came from Irish ports (mostly Irish emigrants) and one-eighth of the US emigrants came from Irish ports, ergo Canada was by far the preferred destination. By 1842, a third of the Canadian population was from the British Isles with half of that number being Irish.
Canada was clearly the magnet in 1832 for Irish emigrants, not the US, so the question is – did a percentage of those travel through Philadelphia rather than Quebec or Boston, especially as Philly is a shorter distance to Toronto than the other two? If so, it is conceivable that a goodly percentage of our waxwings became Canadians.
maccarleo
June 10, 2013 at 3:54 pm
I agree. I had the same thought last night. If we are simply looking for possibilities, we are covering the same ground over again. We have already found this information. If we are not looking for definite identification, it would seem that most of the work has already been done. Once Don’s spreadsheet is finished, we will be able to ascertain the dynamics of the information we have already found.
My feeling right now is that there is a slight difference between the John Stamp and the other ships, but only by a very small degree. This could be explained by the overall makeup of the ship as compared to the others. Maybe our next task should be to dissect the passengers into their different components and compare the ships. Are there more unmarried, more children, more families?
My guess right now is that the JS will have more single and unattached,both male and female. And as Don has pointed out earlier, they would be more mobile. Women are difficult to trace because of marriage name changes and our lack of success at finding the female waxwings is actually greater than the lack of success in finding the men of the JS. Should we conclude that all of the women died in the cholera outbreak? I hope not.
Your Eliza may be lost forever, Don.
maccarleo
June 11, 2013 at 5:32 am
A rough breakdown, allowing for a blurring among families and unmarried.
John Stamp- 160 passengers
Single males- 45%
Single females- 22%
[others - 33%]
Asia- 195 passengers
Single males- 35%
Single females- 15%
[others - 50%]
Ontario- 117 passengers
Single males- 50%
Single females- 27%
[others - 23%]
Prudence- 110 passengers
Single males- 37%
Single females- 16%
[others - 57%]
Asia has the most families and married couples
Ontario has the most unattached women.
Does not seem to be a large variance in numbers, but a bit of a surprise that the Asia had the least amount of single men, percentage wise. We also have not proved or disproved that there were married men at the cut.
Our mud is getting murkier.
Waxwing
June 11, 2013 at 6:36 am
The Asia and the Prudence are virtually identical with the same percentages of attached passengers. One would imagine that males with families would not just dump their dependents once arrived in the US. The exception to that would be if others of the same extended family had settled in the US already – ‘chain migration’. All ships had at least a third of their complement as unattached males, therefore rich pickings for Duffy?
Another oddity is the numbers of unescorted (?) children and family units with one parent only. Asia – Donaghys (5), Riddles (6), McFeat (7), Sterling (4), Blackwell (5), Cook (5). All told 15%; Prudence – Leitch (8), Thompson (6), McPhilemy (6). All told 18%; John Stamp – McLaughlin (2), Diver (3), Crawford (3), Risk (2), Speer (1), Reilly (3). Total 9%; Ontario – Ryan (7), Aiken (12), Crawford (4). Total 20%.
maccarleo
June 11, 2013 at 7:13 am
It does become more ominous and sinister if Duffy was only hiring single, unattached males who were alone in this country. I am sure the sons in the arriving family units were also capable of working the cut. Were they considered for hire? Did they turn down Duffy? Surely, not all of them would have ignored a chance to make money; especially right off the ship. Just what was Duffy’s agenda?
Eileen Breen
June 10, 2013 at 5:28 am
Ellen “Eleanor” McNutt found in severla census’ in Pittsburg, PA
Eileen Breen
June 11, 2013 at 12:19 pm
One article that I read said that during this time females used their maiden names in business and legal matters and that many didn’t take their husbands’ names. So perhaps the person taking the children on the ship who had a different last name was really their mother. FFT: My GG Grandmother who was on a ship with her family used her maiden name but her children had the father’s last name.
Waxwing
June 12, 2013 at 7:40 pm
Very true except that the women on our ships who did not carry a husband’s name were described as spinsters?
However, I am not at all sure what other scenarios there are. I can’t easily believe that widowed men whose children were coping with loss of a parent would take their children on such an arduous journey. Neither can I believe that their wives would travel separately, whether before or after, either way being separated from their children.
maccarleo
June 12, 2013 at 9:45 pm
I did notice that on at least one of the ships, the unmarried women were listed as either unmarried, single or spinster. So there must be some sort of differentiation between the terms?
Eileen Breen
June 14, 2013 at 10:08 pm
The James Snodgrass military record shows he was a carpenter. Our James Snodgrass was a farmer. There is a widowed, Presbyterian farmer named James Snodgrass in New Brunswick, Canada. Although this seems far away from Philadelphia. The other Snodgrass choices are born in US.
Eileen Breen
June 4, 2013 at 6:06 pm
If there is something specific we need from a local Philadelphia library I would consider going this summer.
Waxwing
June 5, 2013 at 4:50 am
I don’t know much about this, sounds like Mary knows more, but I guess there is no need to go to Philly (though a very generous offer, thank you).
Nara is in Boston also:
http://www.archives.gov/boston/public/genealogy-resources.html#census
As far as specific queries, that is why I was querying what these numbers on Ancestry referred to. Is there additional info on the microfiche films that there is not on-line and, if so, why – has Ancestry been selling its customers short with partial information?
The example I gave was for the 11 year old Hugh Knox. Why is there only a record on-line of his arrival in PA and that’s it!? Perhaps an idea would be to look at juveniles only as an exercise and see whether there are records for them. They would not have been murdered (sic) and the names of parents would also be known, plus they would appear in later censuses, perhaps get married etc.
Ship Asia
Donaghy Juveniles – Catherine (11) and John (12). Parent – Robert or Anna (?).
Knox Juveniles – Hugh (11) and Sarah (8). Parent – William.
Riddle Juveniles – Anne (11), William (8), Mary (4), Robert (3), Christopher (2). Parent William (40) or Jane (35).
McFeat Juveniles – Mary (11) and James (8). Parent Joseph (50).
Sterling Juveniles – Sarah (3) and Margaret (2). Parent Elizabeth (50) or Isabelle (24).
Blackwell Juveniles – Eliza (4) and Sam (1). Parents Dan (36) or Martha (30).
Cook Juveniles – May(4) and Eliza (infant). Parents William (32) or Isabella (34).
Note: The odd thing about all but one of these family units is that the children were not accompanied by a married mother.
Waxwing
June 5, 2013 at 5:29 am
Ship John Stamp Juveniles
Shaw Juvenile – James (1), parents Samuel and Mary (both 20).
Johnston Juvenile – David (1), parent Isabella? (20).
Crawford Juveniles – Christy (7) and William (3), parent Mary (30).
McGuire Juvenile – Thomas (5), parent Hannah (27).
Reilly Juveniles – Catherine (3) and Edward (1), parent Oney(?) aged 24.
Comment: Most of these children were accompanied by one (married) parent only, the mother. where was the father? A number of other children had no married parent with them – Margaret McLaughlin (6), Letitia Risk (8), Margaret Speer (8).
Waxwing
June 5, 2013 at 5:39 am
Ship Prudence Juveniles
Leitch Juveniles – Malcolm (11), Charles (8), Mary Anne (6); parent James (55).
McPhilemy Juveniles – Elizabeth (11), Jane (8), Thomas (6), James (4), Martha (2); parent William (44).
Barr Juveniles – Margaret (7), Jane (5) and Eliza Anne (3); parents Thomas and Rachel (both 32).
Comment: Two of these families had only a father in attendance.
Waxwing
June 5, 2013 at 5:47 am
Ship Ontario Juveniles
Ryan Juveniles – Eleanor (11), Fanny (9), Nancy (7), Mary (5) and Christopher (1); Christopher (36) and May (32).
Aiken Juveniles – Sarah (9) William John (3) and Hannah (infant); parent James?(51)
Crawford Juveniles – Eliza (8) and Jane (6); parent John (30) or Anne (26)
Comment: Two of these family units had only one married parent in attendance.
Waxwing
June 5, 2013 at 5:52 am
Juvenile Search
There are 44 juveniles all told in this search. If it transpires that none of these juveniles turn up on Ancestry.com other (as I suspect) than in Arrival Records, I will stick to my reservations that Ancestry.com is hit and miss, more miss.
maccarleo
June 6, 2013 at 3:57 am
I don’t think it is exactly ‘partial’ information. In the passenger lists, there is no association given for each name. What the search engine shows is solely based on the information provided, nothing more. So in effect, you must know the names in order to find them.
I took the John Stamp children and I used Ancestry’s sister site, Family Search, for the search (I did not renew Ancestry registration). I assumed information would be transferred over from Ancestry for the specific areas that Family Search provides information for eg. passenger lists, censuses.
Even though all of the children were on the John Stamp, I only received results for the Reilly children and their father. I needed a separate, individual search for each and they were all listed as being on the ship, John Stamp. It is a bit of a puzzle as to why the other children did not show up in a search. I would assume that all of the transcribed information concerning the John Stamp, even transcription errors, would be available. The search engine leaves a lot to be desired.
Eileen may have gotten better results using Ancestry but my subscription to Ancestry will remain expired.
Waxwing
June 6, 2013 at 7:02 am
I haven’t entirely given up on Ancestry but to say that I am underwhelmed by it would be putting it mildly. I checked the Hugh Knox whose grave Eileen found in Urey PA but, when I refined the search by specifying Hugh’s father as William, that Hugh Knox no longer fitted. Going back to the identified Hugh Knox, what is on file is a whole list of stuff
http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/48313156/person/12890708631
Is this the right Hugh Knox – not so if Hugh’s Father is also listed as Hugh (not William), but great if it is. I see that this Hugh is connected with the ship Asia (with Eileen’s name attached). Also this Hugh is listed as having a child (Susan) just one year after arriving on the Asia, when he was twelve? The rest of his children start thirty years later. All very confusing but if true, just the sort of thing we would have been looking for. Somebody’s life for sure, but whose?
maccarleo
June 6, 2013 at 1:56 pm
Slight correction- You corrected John Hamp to John Stamp. The children are listed as having arrived on the John Hamp, not Stamp. There seems to be consistent errors that would definitely alter a search finding.
All of the children did have a reference back to Eileen’s postings. If Ancestry heavily relies on submitted posts, that would put some of the findings into question as to there veracity. It could be the correct Hugh Knox, but with errors that place doubt as to whether or not the right person has been found.
Eileen Breen
June 7, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Maybe this reflects the high mortality rate of mothers after childbirth. Having multiple children in rapid succession?
Eileen Breen
June 8, 2013 at 11:45 am
The Shaws:
I think this is the only waxwing we found.
Eileen Breen
June 2, 2013 at 12:24 pm
Sounds like a plan!
Waxwing
June 2, 2013 at 4:55 pm
I have made a prototype which currently just has a frontpage but I will be moving much of our brainstormed material across so as to give it a sharper focus:
http://waxwings1832.wordpress.com
maccarleo
June 2, 2013 at 10:49 pm
Went to the page, love it. Really imaginative idea. The layout is great and will be easy to follow. The approach is a fun way to go and uses Eileen’s inductive brain process. The visual on the page works well, too. Glad to see you are loosening up, Don.
Waxwing
June 4, 2013 at 7:49 am
I have most of the names now entered into the new website. So it is simply a matter of: a) collating and transferring info we have on them already b) testing each name against an agreed search algorithm c) entering the data into the spreadsheet d) analysing the data e) summarising the findings. In other words, it is basically using customary audit methods.
Out of that, I expect to show the deficiencies of the tools that are currently available to family researchers. I expect then to be able to challenge the Watsons over their certainties and ask them to come up with what magical methods they are keeping to themselves (?) that allow them to speak with such certainty (sic)!
In short, I expect to come up with the finding tnat a fair number of these young fellas could have just made their way back home having quickly had a sickener, not of cholera, but of Duffy! Duffy was such a shady character, who had bitten off more than he could chew. I wouldn’t put it it past him to have concocted a cock-and-bull story to cover his losses! Mysterious vigilante horsemen indeed!
Waxwing
June 4, 2013 at 8:14 am
Request for Information
When Ancestry.com can only come up with one entry for a person but lists serial numbers in an archive, is there more information to be had by manually searching those archives?
Case taken at random:
Hugh Knox (11), farmer, arrived in PA with other family members on board the ship ‘Asia’ in 1832 from Londonderry.
That’s it, but also listed are – National Archives Series Number 425, Microfilm 47, List Number 102. What do these numbers mean?
Eileen Breen
June 4, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Some names we found that I didn’t see on the spreadsheet – not Waxwings?:
Prudence: William H. Thompson family. J.S.: Diamond/McQuillin/ Stinsons. Pollock/Ballantine. Campbells and Diven/Diver.
Ontario: Cunney, William Anderson
Asia: James F. Rae family.
maccarleo
June 4, 2013 at 2:42 pm
Those numbers are where they found the information in the National Archives. It is the repository of billions of pieces of information. Most of this information can only be viewed from specific locations. There is a website nara.gov. that has a searchable database, but has a limited scope. Sometimes you can input the numbers into the search line and retrieve information. More often than not, the information is only available at a nara location. It is a fascinating site to browse.
Waxwing
June 4, 2013 at 5:55 pm
Which maybe is where the Watsons’ team has the edge? They are not limited to whatever can be found on-line?
Waxwing
June 7, 2013 at 6:47 am
I have summarised our initial premise on the Waxwing project. This is to be found in the Archives section of the new website and it is simply posts that have been copied across from FTT.
Waxwing
June 7, 2013 at 8:25 am
Stop Press
I have found a way of discovering the genuine waxwings (more on that later). I will supply a very much trimmed down list later today to pre-empt any more wild goose chases.
Waxwing
June 8, 2013 at 8:25 am
I have finished with the ship Asia headcount.
The waxwings which promise least room by far for confusion or misidentification are:
McNutt
Menagh
Snodgrass
A concerted effort to track them down for starters should make clear how feasible or unfeasible this exercise of sleuthing is. I have had a quick look at Ancestry.com in relation to these names and of course it has thrown up next to nothing, and nothing that wasn’t known already.
I also noticed that with James Snodgrass it was completely misleading. It offered the real Snodgrass up as a less likely candidate despite the specifier of birth in Ireland etc being met, unlike the names it highlighted which did not meet the basic requirement for birth in Ireland.
This first glance would appear to suggest that there is no basis whatever to the Watsons’ assertion that disappearance or non-appearance in later records means death. It simply means that record-keeping was mostly non-existent or extremely random or patchy at best.
My overall impression is, rightly or wrongly, that the content of Ancestry.com comes mostly from armchair enthusiasts rather than from official records. It is in that respect just like Wikipedia – interesting but unreliable.
Waxwing
June 9, 2013 at 5:29 am
Ship John Stamp
The waxwings with most promise from this ship are:
McGettigan
Patchell
Risk
McGhee
Doak
Speer
Eileen Breen
May 26, 2013 at 1:17 pm
How is it that the taxpayers in England aren’t outraged by the Queen and her family profiting off the backs of the average Joe? It’s outrageous! It’s time they went to work like everyone else. The London merchants seem like a close knit group who probably inherited their way into the group. I don’t think those who had to work their way to the top went to the exclusive coffee houses.
Eileen Breen
June 1, 2013 at 9:47 pm
Hy-Brazil could be an interesting project. Ireland may have had five provinces I read from another researcher. Could Hy-Brazil be one of them? So who is going SCUBA diving to find it? (in the records or the ocean!)
Eileen Breen
June 1, 2013 at 10:17 pm
I have decided you and Mary can find Hy-Brasil in the Atlantic. I haven’t been in the ocean since I saw the movie – Jaws!
Waxwing
June 2, 2013 at 11:48 am
Pass!
I still would be mainly interested in seeing through our Waxwings project. My English adventure is now over with but I have been lined up for two jobs in Northern Ireland, starting this week. That should give me scope, time-wise, to trawl the 1832 papers and see what that turns up. There is enough material in what we have gathered to put together a book – or website perhaps in the first instance – that will be more respectful to the Duffy’s Cut Boys than what the Watsons have been doing. I don’t think we need any more angles as the brainstorming has thrown up plenty to think about.
Back to basics for me then?
Eileen Breen
May 25, 2013 at 6:16 pm
The London Merchants in 1788 gathered in London coffee houses to discuss, if they had a fire on one of their ships or business, how they wouldn’t lose everything they owned or be out-maneuvered by another merchant. They started the London Fire Assurance Company and two others. Several merchants and ship owners participated in this venture.
The Merchants in London started up the financial ladder first by becoming a London merchant. Later, they purchased stocks in a ship. Later again, this money quadrupled and they could lend the money to other merchants and make more money. As they became more successful they were able to purchase a ship. Some of these merchants also became wealthy bankers. This sounds like the Londonderry Merchants.
maccarleo
May 26, 2013 at 4:19 am
This appears to be a very closed group with a few names consistently present. Meeting at coffee houses does not sound like there was a large presence of merchants. Those who were wealthy enough to be allowed into the group, were probably not quite as equal as the others. ‘New’ members had family ties to current members. Even with money, I would think that it would have been very difficult to join. They protected their interests to the point of owning the assurance companies. The money they put up simply stayed in their own pockets. Nice racket.
Waxwing
May 26, 2013 at 5:45 am
In today’s terms, it is a bit like the Crown (represented mainly by the Queen) appointing the ‘City of London’ (the Stock Exchange) to invade, for example, the South-West of England and to monopolise any wealth that is produced by its citizens. In actual fact, Prince Charles is titled the ‘Duke of Cornwall’ and his ‘purse’ comes from taxes in Cornwall and Devon that go directly into his coffers without him having to do anything in return. Daylight robbery?
Eileen Breen
May 25, 2013 at 1:05 am
Thank you both for your kind words. Mary, I’m sorry to hear about your father-in-law. He must have been a brave man. It must have been difficult for him to have endured such a tragedy and then having to remember it and pay homage to the men who died. Depending on our situations in life, we look to our past and those around us who have triumphed over a difficult situation to inspire us.
Eileen Breen
May 24, 2013 at 12:26 pm
My mom passed away this week. Remembering someone’s life is important. In the case of history, remembering one’s life may prevent us from repeating the past. People’s lives can have a profound impact on so many lives. At my mom’s wake so many friends told us she was their best friend. The survivor’s story helps us to brave a difficult situation in our lives.
Waxwing
May 24, 2013 at 10:02 pm
Sorry for your loss, I hadn’t realised just how unwell your mother was. Words are inadequate but I will be thinking of you.
Eileen Breen
May 12, 2013 at 2:22 pm
The duPonts, Astors, Rothchilds, Molsons as well as the Masons from England; the Beresfords, Abercorns (Hamiltons), Corscaddens, Carys and Powers(de la Poer) have all created powerful dynasties. They intermarried within families to keep the ‘bloodline’. The Skull and Bones Society was also a powerful occult club that many US Presidents belonged to. The Masons and the illuminati are also entwined with these families which all had plans for emigrants going to Philadelphia and other port cities.
Eileen Breen
May 13, 2013 at 12:34 pm
I saw an entry for Philadelphia,1745, where the Mayor hired a few hundred apprentices and then it listed the indentured contracts. I didn’t find any contracts after this. This was probably near the end of the indentured service near 1829. They may have continued the same tradition as the Londonderry Masons who used the Apprentice Boys to work in their businesses.
The apprentices needed two Justices of the Peace to make the contract legal. Perhaps the approval for all the contracts and work (laborers, farmers, mill work or one of their many businesses) went through the City Hall via the mayors office in Philadelphia and the Guildhall for the Corporation? The two cities were set up in a similar fashion. Early on they didn’t allow the apprentices to work on any of their products (quality control) but later on they may have needed them to keep up with the pace of the Industrial Revolution.
Waxwing
May 14, 2013 at 5:56 pm
Plenty FTT there, Eileen. I will keep all these possible insights in mind when I am trawling through the contemporary newspapers.
Also, I am fully aware that you are carrying this project on your shoulders, virtually single-handedly right now, and I am very appreciative of your efforts, Eileen. I have been very absentee of late but I promise to pull my weight quite soon.
Eileen Breen
May 14, 2013 at 11:54 pm
I think you, Mary, Patrick and Vic have put in a great effort on this project. I have learned a lot from everyone. I like that everyone has a different view on things and have come up with some awesome topics and research articles. Thanks everyone for keeping this project going. I think it’s fine if we all do this at our own pace and do what you enjoy doing.
I thought the last article that Mary put up was interesting. The Masons looked like they were surveyors. They made a connection between the top of the city hall to the bottom and to the point to where one stands as you look at it it. This is a vector. I believe they are also mystical properties in them as it pertained to mythology and the astrology they believed in.
Waxwing
May 15, 2013 at 6:34 am
Vic would probably call a vector an azimuth, or at least he would say that an azimuth is one kind of vector tnat enables you to travel in the direction you would like to go in. In other words, it is a direction-finder. In both cases we have here, they use planetary objects as their reference point – in the case of the Masons, that might be the stars; in Vic’s example, tnat would be the sun. In the Masonic case, a vector might be granted by a believer some mystical power; in Vic’s azimuth, it is simply a tool to be used that keeps the person on track. I like Vic’s azimuth better and I think we have still to find it.
Eileen Breen
May 23, 2013 at 12:22 pm
I’m hoping to get to the Irish Famine Museum in CT this summer. It’s sad that Staten Istand story come to light, A lot of cemeteries didn’t keep good records or were more willing to resell the land to a golf course. There was a park in CT where bodies were discovered after a hurricane dugg them up.
Waxwing
May 23, 2013 at 11:17 pm
I think the Famine was the major interest of Christine Kinealy. As a topic, it has never interested me, callous though that may sound, as in the words of JC, “Let the dead bury their dead’. I am more interested in survivors.
Mary Cornell
May 3, 2013 at 4:59 am
‘The Rural Economy’ (book)
Following up on Patrick’s idea, the hiring fairs in Letterkenny were held in May and November. If our John Stamp laborers were recruited, it would have been a rush to the ship since it left that May,1832. They may have been recruited in November, but would Duffy have been recruiting that early for the Cut?
Eileen Breen
April 30, 2013 at 12:24 pm
I think the men from the John Stamp were Mason recruits/ apprentices earning their way up the Mason ladder.
Mary Cornell
May 1, 2013 at 1:57 am
How do we know that? Are we talking about the Catholic laborers or the Protestant laborers? In all of the information that we have found, I don’t see any Masonic ties to the John Stamp passengers. The merchants in Derry have Masonic members, but I do not think we have enough information to make the leap and say that the men on the John Stamp were Mason recruits. More research is needed that definitively links the men to the Masons on both sides of the ocean.
Waxwing
May 1, 2013 at 6:42 am
I struggle with the idea too, intriguing though it may be. In fact, I wish it were true as it puts quite an exciting, almost Da Vinci Code, spin on it. I suppose like all brotherhoods, the Masons can sup with the Devil when it suits. So passing work to a non-Mason like Duffy (him being Catholic) is not out of the question but it is still quite a leap?
Eileen Breen
May 1, 2013 at 12:49 pm
Everything about the Masons is methodical and planned. From the decorations on their buildings, planned cities, rituals and sending ships to all the major ports and all corners of the globe. Any town that has a major river could theoretically have a planned Masonic city. My own city is one of them. Looking at buildings in the “lodge area” I found many buildings and symbols of the Masons and they all yield back to the Masons beliefs. I find it hard to believe that they would select people at random and let them just leave the ships without having a plan. Apprenticeships are a major element in the Masons from 1500s to 1800s. I have been trying to research apprenticeships in Philadelphia. I realize that we don’t have that one key piece of evidence yet but I think we may find it. Check out James Corscaden’s profile on Ancestry. I put some Masonic imagery on his profile.
Patrick
May 1, 2013 at 7:16 pm
Lets look at that from another slant. The transporting of these people was not a charitable act. I think, and with that in mind, both Masons’ and non-Masons’ fares would expect to be paid. So if there were not enough passengers of a Masonic ilk to justify the ship sailing I think they would have no qualms in taking non-Masonic passengers, provided they knew the fares would be paid.
Also on the question of how and where the recruiting was done. Perhaps the recruiting was done at the hiring fairs which I believe ran from the early 1800s into the early 1900s. And as I think the most of the Donegal recruits came from aroung Carndonagh perhaps even the timing of each ship’s arrival may have been important. Perhaps the hiring fair was in Carndonagh or even in Derry then, in say mid-May then than batch would be on a boat soon after early June. And let’s say there was a fair in Letterkenny at the end of May, then that batch would leave at the end of June. A cranky idea I know but perhaps worth looking at.
Waxwing
May 1, 2013 at 11:03 pm
Not so cranky. On the face of it, the concept seems to have merit. Given that the ships leaving Derry went in clusters and given the DuPont link, weavers could have gone to their mills and the labourers ended up somewhere else eg Duffy’s Cut. The fly in the ointment is the illegibility of the DuPont inventory of passengers. Perhaps the Transcribers’ Guild could try their hand at rseeing how many, if any, of the millworkers came from North West Ulster.
Eileen Breen
May 2, 2013 at 1:23 am
A ring around a pentagram – a 5 pointed star – is to protect the workers as they build a Masonic Temple. The Masons valued their workers. Everything I read about Masons is that they mean to show equality and good conduct towards others. They can get thrown out of the lodge if they don’t adhere to the strict conduct standards of the Masons. The shipping business was to colonize cities that would later promote the Masons’ principles. There were capitalists whonwere Masons like the DuPonts who invested in Philadelphia.
Eileen Breen
May 2, 2013 at 1:25 am
The 5 pointed star also represented the Masons’ respect for humanity and nature.
Eileen Breen
May 2, 2013 at 8:30 am
On Patrick’s point we did find the article that showed travel agents in sixteen townlands. One agent was a relative of James Corscaden. I can’t seem to find out if men were just recruited for their labor in Ireland to work in US and Canada but recruited for the Masons in U.S? How selective were they? Did any of the laborers from Ireland become a Mason after arriving in US?
Eileen Breen
May 3, 2013 at 1:19 pm
The Peggy McKendrick letter to duPont was in November of 1832
Eileen Breen
May 6, 2013 at 1:25 am
The Masons in Londonderry used astrological signs on their architecture on the Londonderry Walls. Londonderry is known as the Maiden City. The maiden is Virgo and Virgo is often seen with a cornucopia. The cornucopia represents ‘wealth, time, prosperity, redemption and organization after a period of war’ – see the attached article.
On the Shipquay Gate on the Londonderry Walls behind a cornucopia there looks like the letter M scrolled, the sign for Virgo the Maiden. Virgo is the earth sign, Mercury is the planet. The wall is a paradigm and a photo of this Gate is on James Corscaden’s profile on Ancestry.
Eileen Breen
May 11, 2013 at 11:33 pm
Thanks Mary for the film from the PBS series: The Secrets Of the Dead “Death On The Railroad.”
Eileen Breen
April 25, 2013 at 2:51 pm
Thanks Mary for the Philadelphia information. The streets that the Friendly Sons Of St Patrick lived and the city government seem to be centered in a grid pattern around Independence Hall that was a Mason meeting Hall. The Photos from the Philadelphia article show the three Mason meeting houses near Independence Hall and the Blockley Almshouse.
Mary Cornell
April 26, 2013 at 1:22 am
Everything seemed to eminate out from the center on the grid. And it looked like the more important were closer to the center. William Penn supposedly was the main architect for the original part of Philadelphia. I think Washington DC was also built around the same idea of a central point.
Eileen Breen
April 26, 2013 at 12:35 pm
The Journal Of American Irish Historical Society had a name that was similar in Donegal: Hamilton (Duke Of Abercorn- not sure if they are related) Also the name Conyngham from Donegal. In the Friendly Sons of St Patrick I also saw the name Cary, not the same first names as ours in the H.I.S. Perhaps the H.I.S. used different Irish Societies as a fraternity like the Mason’s, Irish Historical Society, Hibernian’s, First City Troop, Hibernian Fire Company,- Relief Of Emigrant’s Friendly Sons of St Patrick and the Committee Merchant’s Of Philadelphia.
So far I didn’t find Philip Duffy, Robert Taylor or the 8 ship builders from Derry. I think the Taylor I saw before may have been Tyler. There is a presence of citizen’s of Ireland in these organizations who were recommended by relatives, friends or members of these organizations for membership.
I didn’t know if we should look at the ships that the H.I.S. ship builders used to see if we can spot any trends. I noticed in The Friendly Sons of St Patrick there were merchant’s who became ship builders. perhaps looking at these folks would be helpful in establishing a link between Derry and Philadelphia Port.
Waxwing
April 29, 2013 at 8:44 pm
I was wondering whether we are looking up the wrong end of a telescope and that, mixing metaphors, once Occam’s Razor has been put to work perhaps what is being tested are implicit assumptions or hypotheses that:
There were as many sinister forces at play in Ireland, whoever or whatever they were, before the waxwings set sail?
These forces were no respecters of religion – Catholics and Protestants if not well-heeled were equally expendable – as material advancement and money was the God?
There was a well-oiled mechanism at play in Ireland and the US that could readily locate and recruit unsuspecting Irish bumpkins with false promises?
Maybe it’s time to put a skeleton together of a book to see how it all hangs together. In other words, time for deductive as well as inductive reasoning to lick this all into shape?
Eileen Breen
April 27, 2013 at 12:34 pm
I find it interesting that when we speak of the Boston Marathon incident the news-people use the terrorists’ first-names. I think people find it difficult to say that two young pleasant-looking people would be terrorists. They humanize them. I wish they wouldn’t use their first names to personalize them. They’re just mass murders.
On another subject, I think the H.I.S. controlled the flow of commerce to gain control of a country’s finances and resources. By tightening the reins over crops, exports and imports of a country they could introduce war, famine and mass exodus as a means of being able to effectively establish power and influence the citizens to choose the government that would “improve their lives.” Once they crushed the government of a country they invaded they could crush the country and exert control over them.
Mary Cornell
April 29, 2013 at 10:36 pm
So coming back to Duffys Cut, take what we can reasonably and logically assume and see what lies? I don’t believe there are as many grand schemes as we have come up with, but a possibility of a small scheme to get a few uneducated workers for as little cost as possible.
Eileen Breen
April 30, 2013 at 12:23 am
I’m concerned that you said the emigrants were unsuspecting and were led by false promises. The Masons didn’t recruit anyone they didn’t feel would be good candidates for the Masons. They wanted the men to become masons and the woman also had a supporting lodge. They wanted to maintain quality workers who depicted the Masons in the best image. You got in by inheritance, earning your way or as an honorary member.
I think the emigrants became Masons after they agreed to work a term of months or years on a project in a property owned by a Mason (like the Apprentice Boys of Derry) I think the emigrants knew what they were getting into as far as the work goes. Perhaps they heard about the pandemic but decided the money was good and they would take the risk. I don’t think they saw how fear of contagion would turn a group of people into a vigilante mob.
Fear may have played on the mythical history of the Irish. The Masons were big into mythical beliefs. Were the Irish who were experienced in dealing with racial prejudice as experienced in dealing with the fear and how people reacted to it? They were taken by surprise and had no time to react.
Waxwing
April 30, 2013 at 6:25 am
So, can we take from that:
No Masonic apprentices worked for Duffy?
No Masonic apprentices were on the John Stamp?
Eileen Breen
May 8, 2013 at 2:08 pm
Another place to look at is the forty ships that went from Londonderry to Wilmington. DuPont hired these ships and he also had another shipping business in Guatemala. Perhaps the fairs that Patrick wrote about could correspond with these ships. I was curious if the fairs in these cities recruited for such as just laborers, farmers or skilled workers. There were a few ships that had gentlemen as passengers. Could they have been shipping agents that took the journey with them and recruited the people on the trip to the farms and factories.
Waxwing
May 9, 2013 at 6:31 am
My reading of it is that the Wilmington DE ships were actually bound for Philadelphia and they used Wilmington as a stop-off point. That was over a ten-year period. After that there was no further mention on the manifests of Wilmington as the destination but the ships may have continued to stop there as before? I think these Wilmington-bound ships were not peculiar to DuPont but I may be wrong.
I really need to get myself along to a library and start reading the local newspapers of the period to see how the different conjectures that have been raised stack up; see which are runners and which aren’t. There is nothing to beat contemporary accounts rather than retroscopes. I am still working in England (but not for much longer) during the week and by the weekend I flake out so I have been resting on my oars too much.
Waxwing
May 12, 2013 at 8:35 am
Fritz Springmeier
This man (from Oregon) heavily researched the links between the DuPonts, Jefferson, Franklin and the Freemasons/Illuminati
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bloodlines/dupont.htm
He seems to have overstepped the mark however and he did eight years in a federal penitentiary for armed robbery. Since his release in 2011 he seems to have gone very quiet!
Eileen Breen
April 22, 2013 at 12:46 am
I think I would have been more impressed with the article if the author had applied how other faiths would suggest how to resolve trust issues and/or also have someone’s stance that wasn’t religious put another view on it. I don’t think that just saying a few prayers will resolve their issues.
Perhaps learning how to forgive others may lessen one’s anger, thus decreasing cardiac symptoms and stress. Being in a group may also help and discussing your situation with friends or a professional. For some, faith may also give them comfort. I think there are many factors that bring on these stressful trust issues and it’s not just one approach that will ease them.
Eileen Breen
April 23, 2013 at 12:17 am
One of the Molsons married a Sarah I. Vaughn whose uncle was the GGGGG-Great Grandfather of Princess Diana and whose cousin was the Duke of Atholl. The Molsons, Beresfords, Hamiltons (Duke Of Abercorn), Corscadens, Blairs and Carys were all related by marriage. Molson’s mother was born in Philadelphia, Corscaden was a diplomat in Philadelphia and Beresford fought against duPont in Wilmington, DE near the Port of Philadelphia.
Eileen Breen
April 23, 2013 at 11:14 pm
FFT: Two shipping lines in the 1800s, one from Liverpool to Philadelphia was the Thomas Cope Line and the other, the McCorkell line, went from Londonderry to Philadelphia. Edward Smith headed a parliamentary investigation concerning the emigration of Irish citizens to Philadelphia. There were thirteen ships from londonderry, compared to four from liverpool, as the fares for Liverpool were higher than Londonderry. On the McCorkell line, the cost was offset by the returning balast of Indian corn. Perhaps the H.I.S. also had their hands in making a profit from the famine?
Eileen Breen
April 24, 2013 at 1:18 pm
Mary: Great find on the Hibernian Society. I just quickly glanced at it. I’ll have to look at it more closely tonight. Robert Taylor is Treasurer in 1833. I also noticed some of the members lived on Walnut St and Delaware St. Duffy lived on Walnut and Delaware/3rd St.
I’m curious if there is a Philadelphia Directory listing the city government. Maybe the H.I.S. are also members of the city government in Philadelphia and live in the surrounding neighborhood around Independence Hall which is one of the oldest mason meeting houses 1/3 in Philadelphia.
I would be even more curious if Philadelphia is laid out like Londonderry, reflecting the Mason’s principles. Independence Hall also had a clock tower. If so, they are modeling the same concept as London and Londonderry where the Mason/Guildhall is the focal point – the (clock tower)- and the surrounding neighborhood is where all the city officials live.
Mary Cornell
April 21, 2013 at 4:54 pm
Press release for the PBS show on Duffys Cut, ‘Death on the Railroad’-
http://www.thirteen.org/13pressroom/press-release/secrets-of-the-dead-death-on-the-railroad/
Mary Cornell
April 21, 2013 at 5:18 pm
A little bit of activity on the Watson’s facebook site-
http://www.reverbnation.com/kilmainesaints/song/14559194-57-drunken-redemption
Eileen Breen
April 20, 2013 at 11:55 am
The oldest brother was being watched by another country who alerted the US. It amazing how quickly law enforcement solved this case. I still think there is something going on with the family of the two brothers. Right now there seems to be more questions than answers. I think there are still more people involved.
Mary Cornell
April 21, 2013 at 4:33 pm
Luckily, I scored low on the checklist. I shouldn’t be going postal anytime soon.
The article states that a weak spiritual life is a component, but can the same be said of fanatical beliefs. In other words, do the same experiences lead to a ‘step off the cliff’ into fanaticism? Fanaticism can also be seen as a way to control and dominate. Is there a common denominator of low self esteem? Are these fanatical believers trying to dominate or eradicate non-believers? In their minds, I do not think that a convert can be trusted. Better to rid the world of non-believers.
I think the spouses in these relationships have also experienced the same, but their response is toward submissiveness.
Waxwing
April 21, 2013 at 5:51 pm
I agree. Totally in character as the deeply cynical person that I am I did not score low on the checklist. i also disregarded the Faith part of the checklist, incidentally one of the authors is an Associate Dean of Immaculata University (shock/horror) where Bill Watson is. I was always a bit suspicious for example of the Alcoholics Anonymous stance and their Twelve Steps that require a person in ‘recovery’ to transfer their dependence on a substance to a dependence on a so-called Higher Power.
Mary Cornell
April 21, 2013 at 7:22 pm
I wonder what showing a distrust of the checklist means?!
Eileen Breen
April 15, 2013 at 12:32 pm
The RC church was never helpful in aiding the Irish people who were social outcasts during the 1800s in Ireland or the Jewish families in the 1930-40s in Europe trying to escape persecution. They could have saved millions but chose not not get involved just to keep their political and social standing.
Waxwing
April 15, 2013 at 5:50 pm
Famine Relief Measures
Nothing new in this clip, just an overview, or ‘The Famine for Slow Learners’ you could say.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Aimbgso7LVo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DAimbgso7LVo
Rather more helpful is the research carried out by Prof Christine Kinealy:
http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Private_Responses_to_the_Famine3344361812
From that it is clear how impressive the multi-agency cooperation was in providing famine relief, crossing all religious boundaries and operating to fill the moral vacuum left by Government. As usual, Americans (mostly in Boston) – and Jews – played their full part in lending a helping hand. If similar effort was put into aiding emigration, the likes of the waxwings would have had no difficulty in accessing a passage to America.
Notable amongst those who helped was ‘Count’ Sir Pawel (Paul) de Strzelecki, a Polish national from Posnan who also discovered Gippsland in Australia, a region to which he later arranged for the immigration of many Irish victims of the Famine. Sir Paul is largely forgotten, although at the time he earned the gratitude and adulation of the British public for the services he rendered to the famine-stricken populace of Sligo and Mayo. He was in charge of the relief programme which had at its disposal the vast sum in these days of £600,000 that was raised by voluntary subscription. For services rendered, de Strzelecki received his first knighthood.
http://www.mtkosciuszko.org.au/english/chronology.htm
Whether de Strzelecki was actually the first to discover Gippsland (modern-day Victoria) has always been a bone of contention. There is the counter-story that he has been falsely accredited an honour that rightly belongs to Angus MacMillan, an explorer from the Isle of Skye in Scotland. Which of these two men was more star-crossed is a moot point – despite his honours and international successes, de Strzelecki died a bachelor and he never got to marry his beloved Adyna:
http://www.zrobtosam.com/PulsPol/Puls3/index.php?sekcja=1&arty_id=6724
An extract from one of his letters to Adyna reads:
“I do not tell you to love me or think of me – you will do it as I do by habit”.
Sadly for Adnya, Strzelecki’s ardour waned over the next forty years and when they finally met forty years later, he found himself looking down on what he found to be her tittle-tattle and he wrote “how much she has lost in comparison with such women as Jane Franklin and Florence Nightingale who gained for themselves a place in history”. Obviously, this from him was the height of disrespect and arrogance and portrays Strzelecki in a very poor light notwithstanding his sterling efforts in Ireland. It also takes no account of Adnya’s own contibutions for the Polish Resistance, all quietly done at home when her supposed paramour was out and about ‘saving the world’.
MacMillan, who in de Strzelecki’s eyes stole from him the official recognition for discovering Gippsland, died a pauper underneath a fallen pack-horse and MacMillan is a hate-figure to this day amongst Aborigines.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcmillan-angus-2416
Waxwing
April 17, 2013 at 6:59 am
Black Powder, White Lace
I have taken delivery now of this book on the DuPont Irish by Meg Mulrooney. I have not read it yet but at first glance there appears to be nothing in it pertaining to Derry (surprising considering the strong connection). Also there is nothing about all the various issues and queries about the DuPonts that have been raised on this page on this blog. The book is a digest of her PhD thesis and it is interesting enough in its own right and well-written. I may ask her for a further-distilled version of it for ‘The Sea is Wide’ but otherwise it is not likely to be of any use to us.
Eileen Breen
April 17, 2013 at 11:55 pm
On the Emigration of Protestants to America
The author seems to have a racist view that Protestants were undercut by native Irish when bidding for land on newly acquired planted [appropriated] lands. He believed an Irish RC only considered whether he could pay the rent, in contrast to Protestant English [or Scots] who would calculate a multitude of factors before deciding if he afford to rent land.
The author was also appalled by the facts that more RCs were living on land as a result of legislation that didn’t protect the Protestant tenant and it forced the Protestants to emigrate – early 94,500 Protestants in 4 years. He was also irritated that an Irish RC eldest son could remain on the land because he felt he should inherit the land from an ancient relative.
Waxwing
April 18, 2013 at 1:11 pm
Weird!
Irrespective of religion, emigrants were taking a massive leap into the unknown and they should have been standing shoulder-to-shoulder. Times was hard enough already?
Eileen Breen
April 16, 2013 at 12:01 pm
Sad day in Boston. It will be somber for a long time.
Waxwing
April 16, 2013 at 1:20 pm
Shocking news. And only a year too since the massacre in Mary’s neck of the woods.
Eileen Breen
April 17, 2013 at 12:40 pm
I read that many of these tragic events such as Columbine have happened in April in different years but they occurred in the middle of the month.
On another subject, Megan Mulrooney’s book may be of interest if we look at the emigrants who lived in DuPont housing. Also compare it to ship manifests to see if they came off H.I.S. Ships.
In just starting the ship builder’s trees it seems that although the H.I.S. worked together to give each other loans or get supplies for the ships they also had their own shipping companies. DuPont used over forty ships and McCorkell and Corscaden also purchased several ships.
The H.I.S. also had the Aberdeen port locked up and the relatives of the Derry Port merchants and ship owners seem to have been at the Aberdeen Port. They had many connections to other ports in England, Scotland and Derry. Molson also had many ships for the St Lawrence port and the Trans-atlantic trade.
Eileen Breen
April 19, 2013 at 11:53 am
We can leave the DuPonts alone for a while.
Breaking news in the Boston Marathon case. The police and federal agents solving this crime against humanity are amazing and brave as they try to solve this case. One brother was killed by police, the other is still at large. My niece’s friend was severely hurt in the blast and two other people we know narrowly escaped being injured within 1-2 minutes of the blast, as well as a local college student who had just passed the finish line. Next year many more runners will run in this race.
Waxwing
April 19, 2013 at 8:55 pm
Very bizarre and unfathomable motivation behind this carnage. The brothers spent their early formative years in Chechnya but the US never had any involvement there. Nor were there any Islamist extremists using Chechnya or Kyrgyzstan as a stomping ground. Granted the Chechnyans had a track record but that was directed at Mother Russia, not the US, as evidenced in the Moscow Underground bombing. Perhaps the first name of one of the bombers, Tamerlan, was a bit of a giveaway. Tamerlane was infamous for his cruelty as a warlord and he was born on the border of Kyrgyzstan – definitely not someone to name a child after.
Waxwing
April 20, 2013 at 7:10 am
Islamic Radicalism in Kyrgyzstan
I was wrong as it would seem there has been a hotbed of radicalism in Southern Kyrgyzstan, especially amongst ethnic Uzbeks, which this fellow Tamerlan would have been. See Chapter Seven.
http://mercury.ethz.ch/serviceengine/Files/ISN/140659/ipublicationdocument_singledocument/a312bd8d-05d5-4f24-a94a-8e6b760e7880/en/Pages%2520from%2520Central_Asia_21st_Century-2.pdf
It would also appear that the US has had a presence in Kyrgyzstan in providing training and support to the Kyrgyz government in its fight against incursions from the IMU (Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan) – Chapter 21.
Quite apart from any radical movement at work, the President of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov, has had a terrible human rights record but nonetheless has had a dubious relationship with the US in the past. Any followers, or indeed opponents, of Karimov might have had an axe to grind.
Adding all these things together, it seems most likely to me that these brothers were not acting on their own.
Mary Cornell
April 19, 2013 at 9:23 pm
A government expert on terrorism was saying that terrorism has ‘diversified’ in that with the use of the Internet, Islamic extremists use websites to indoctrinate individuals into the radicalism they espouse. These individuals have no previous radical ideas or ties to any specific group like Al Queda, but become puppets solely from the websites that provide a terrorism-how-to. This makes it nearly impossible to pick up by the terrorism experts. Crazy world we live in.
Mary Cornell
April 20, 2013 at 3:54 pm
After reading some of the articles that have been written, it seems the mother of these two young men was the one one who was first indoctrinated through the Internet. She was quoted as saying her sons were being framed. If my two sons were shooting policeman,carjacking vehicles, and most importantly, throwing grenades at police, my first thought would not be that they were being framed. It appears there is a disconnect from reality on the mother’s part. Something more than just denial. We tend to forget the influence the women have over the men inside the home, especially sons. The father, from all accounts, sounds like he may have been dominated by his wife.
My question is that if there were others involved, why were the bombs crudely made low tech devices that, even though three people died and scores were injured, did very little damage. Even with today’s tighter security, a much more powerful device could have been made with help. If there were others involved, this may have been a diversion for some other purpose. In time, we may have answers to why.
Waxwing
April 21, 2013 at 2:02 pm
Peace to the World
Here is an interesting little Mistrust Checklist I stumbled across during the course of preparing an educational session for coronary incident survivors in the North West of Ireland. I have been asked by the regional Coronary Intervention Service to take charge of educating these survivors of heart attacks into how to change their mindsets and their lifestyles to prevent recurrences.
Try out the checklist and see how you do.
http://www.maritalhealing.com/conflicts/controllingspouse.php
Mary Cornell
April 14, 2013 at 3:31 pm
I was thinking about something Patrick had said earlier about an orderly recruitment. If the Watsons assertion that all of the men were RC is correct, the recruiting might have been taking place in the churches or by the priests. Word was sent to a specific person, who then sent it out to various parishes or priests? It would be the easiest way to recruit a large number of men for a work force. And the priest would be trusted more than an outsider who came to recruit. The problem with this idea is that we should see the men coming from a closer proximity to each other.
Eileen Breen
April 14, 2013 at 8:00 pm
If our story came before the Catholic Emancipation why would the RCs trust the Protestants? If the church idea is correct then maybe the men were more Protestant than Catholic? Unless the landlords/employers were Protestant/H.I.S. and they proposed the idea of emigration. It seems like the recruiters had the major townlands covered. An article Don put up also said there were four shipbrokers but it didn’t say who they were. It would be interesting to see how many ship builders also had a Philadelphia connection. So far Moleson, Corscaden and duPont and Cunard did and all were Masons.
The Masons were established in Philadelphia before the American Revolution. I was also thinking, with the waves of emigration to Philadelphia when the Scotch-Irish came first, perhaps many of them were Masons. The film on the Masons showed two lodges that were very early in Philadelphia prior to the one built in 1880s. One of the Masonic lodges was in Independence Hall. One Mason lodge was burned by anti-Mason’s in the 1860s. The two earliest lodges still exist. I think there is a link between the Londonderry, Canadian and Philadelphia ship builders and the Masons.
Eileen Breen
April 14, 2013 at 9:24 pm
From LPHC History Of Derry Port:
In the 17th-18th century, in a city dominated by merchants, shopkeepers and craftsman, only Freemen (Masons) of the city were entitled to conduct business, own property, and receive protection within the walled city. Freemen consisted of two classes – the first were entitled by birth, apprenticeship, marriage or purchase. The second were those granted it by favor. The minute books record frequent complaints of freemen about ‘strangers and foreigners exercising their trade’ in Derry’. In the minutes the freeman levied a tax on all foreigners’ goods or imports in or out of the city of Derry.
In 1767, sixty seven ships were owned by the merchants of Derry. In 1838, Derry was linked to sixteen ports in Ireland and fifty three ports in England. From 1834-1850, fifty four ships were bought by Derry merchants, twenty eight of these were bought in Canada. In 1833, there were forty one sailing ships owned by Derry merchants, fifteen were involved in the North America emigrant trade, three were steamships. Canada was an economic necessity for Londonderry in order to keep the supply of timber for their ship building business.
Eileen Breen
April 14, 2013 at 9:31 pm
The Alexanders (S. and J.) were Derry shipbuilders. I only saw this name from the article Don put up. Still need to confirm they are the ship builder Alexanders. The family tree for Youngs of Culdaff and Inishowen shows Youngs and Alexanders. Master John Young of the John Stamp and Corscaden may be related to the Alexanders. I had asked this person who owns the tree if he knew about the connection but he didn’t have any information. The history of the Alexanders shows them in Donegal in Inishowen near Patrick. The history shows that in the 1700s at the time of the Plantation. We need more information to confirm their story. They also have a Philadelphia connection. I sent everyone their story and it’s on the ship builders’ tree.
Mary Cornell
April 15, 2013 at 4:31 am
The Catholics would have been very wary of any Protestant recruiting. Philip Duffy, being Catholic, would have used Catholic recruiters, possibly family members, to recruit. They would have gone to the priests who would then recruit in the church. The only Protestant presence would be the shipping agents who had to be used anyway. Remember, this is assuming the Watsons’ assertion that all of the men were Catholic is true.
Waxwing
April 15, 2013 at 11:03 am
This raises a moot point. What exactly did the Catholic Church do to help their flock in any shape or form, not just encourage possibly emigration as a means of social relief? Did the Church help in any significant way with Famine relief – all we hear about is the bad, Protestant, land-owning clergy extorting rents, Bishops Whately and Alexander and their likes. On the other side, we hear about the RC Bishop McCloskey from Dungiven who organised massive social relief in New York for newly-arrived emigrants. That’s about it.
In other words, if the RC Church was not proactive in providing social relief, I can’t see them being very active as unofficial emigration agents either.
Eileen Breen
April 17, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Would you and Mary be interested in doing a tree on emigrants to DuPont’s factories and housing?
Waxwing
April 17, 2013 at 7:53 pm
I had a quick scan at the Hagley inventory of emigrants and I find the quality of digital reproduction is not great and leaves the lists difficult to read?
For the moment, I have acquired two books which I intend to study over the next few weeks so as to get a better feel for what was happening this side of the Atlantic during the period in question:
1. ‘The Catholic Question in Ireland and England 1798 to 1822 – The Papers of Denys Scully’. From memory, I think he was a so-called ‘Castle Catholic’ or Uncle Tom I guess he would be called States-side.
2. ‘An Atlas of Irish History’ by Ruth Dudley Edwards.
Eileen Breen
April 12, 2013 at 1:43 pm
Mary found a John Munn, mayor of Londonderry in 1829. There are two Munns listed a John Munn esq., MD and a John Munn Jr., both lessors. Mary also found a John Munn in Canada (Jennie Johnson article) and the date is later than the first John Munn so it may be his son.
Eileen Breen
April 13, 2013 at 12:10 pm
The Alexander Munn article from Mary has interesting points: Alexander may be the son of John Munn Esq., MD and brother to John Munn Jr. Alexander had a son John. They had a connection to Molson Brewing Company in Quebec where John Jr was Mayor. I think this company is on the St Lawrence River. I remember seeing it when I went to Quebec. The article also said that for the St Johns New Brunswick colony you needed a political connection to belong. Perhaps in Derry you needed to be political as well. The article also referred to “freedom of the city” which is also mentioned in the Mason’s philosophy.
Waxwing
April 6, 2013 at 10:28 pm
Ghosts and New Beginnings
Totally for no reason other than being a special treat, I thought to post this aria from Ann Sofie Otter by a lesser-known German composer. As it turns out it has a wider, if very indirect, significance to the Duffys Cut episode.
Ann Sofie’s Dad, Goran von Otter, was Swedish ambassador to Berlin during Kristallnacht when he met by chance the tragic Kurt Gerstein. Gerstein unloaded himself to von Otter to share the terrible sights he had seen, and did likewise to the Catholic hierarchy despite himself being a devout Protestant, but he was ignored as a scaremongerer. Thomas Kenneally took up the story as a follow-on to Schindler’s Ark but it did not achieve the same commercial success.
http://www.gerstein.dk/
The story otherwise remains largely untold but can be found on Wikipedia and it demonstrates the consequences of being complicit in keeping dreadful secrets. The aria itself clearly resonates with Ann Sofie while singing it and tells of loss, hauntings by ghosts of deceased persons, and the possibility of new beginnings.
Don MacFarlane
April 8, 2013 at 7:16 am
Free Agents
This from the Strabane Morning Post illustrates that folks were able to make their own way to PA unencumbered by any obligations to DuPont or their likes, as long as they had the means.
http://ied.dippam.ac.uk/records/53196
‘NOW IN PORT FOR PHILADELPHIA, The Beautiful, First-class, ONTARIO.
Burthen 700 tons: JOHN CONNELL, Master. To Sail positively the 21st March next.
The ONTARIO is a superior fast-sailing vessel, fitted up in a most comfortable manner for Passengers, and will be despatched at the above date, or, if the wind be unfavourable, she will be towed down by a steamer.
Captain Connell’s kindness to passengers is so well known as to require no comment. Persons intending to emigrate this season should immediately secure berths in this superior conveyance, as her complement will also be engaged.
For passage please apply to Mr. Samuel Morton, Mr. Leslie Sault, or Mr. Thomas Hamilton, Strabane; Mr. Lavens Mathewson, Mr. Stewart, Mr. William McCreery, Omagh; Mr. James Doughorty, Limavady; Mr. Robert Clegg, Enniskillen; Mr. Robert Laird or Mr. John Toner, Ballbofey; Mr. John Green, Ballyshannon; Mr. Gallagher, Letterkenny; Mr. William Henderson, Castlederg; Mr. James Sherrard, Fintona; Mr. John Sweeney, Filleton; as the Sub. souber, who will put on board an abundance of Fuel and Waters for the voyage.
DANIEL BAIRD
FOYLE STREET, DERRY Feb. 18,1832
Elegant accommodation for Cabin Passengers.’
Comment:
Clearly there was no shortage of emigration agents. Also, notwithstanding the Ontario being such a ‘fine ship’, it is even so very likely that it would make itself available to ragamuffin passengers of the labouring variety. There would have been less salubrious compartments in the hold which would be jam-packed with the lower-class who became a human ballast. The above advertisement is clearly for cabin passengers only.
It is also noteworthy that the ship was berthed for a full month before sailing, so it wold have been common knowledge that there was an emigration ship in port. No need then for more sinister press-ganging arrangements to solicit passengers for the US.
Waxwing
April 8, 2013 at 7:50 am
Other Emigration Agents
http://www.londonderryport.com/images/Derry%20emigration%20overview.pdf
http://www.bogstown.com/2010/09/04/1830s-life-in-londonderry/
‘By 1833 seven merchants in the city – Daniel Baird, James Corscaden, John Kelso, William McCorkell, James McCrea, John Munn and Joseph Young – owned fifteen vessels, all engaged in the North American emigrant trade’.
From Four Courts Press comes
Atlantic Gateway: The port and city of Londonderry since 1700
Robert Gavin, William P Kelly and Dolores O‟Reilly (Four Courts Press, Dublin, 2009).
This is the reference work for the academic or serious general reader who wishes to research the history of Derry port and its relationship with its hinterland.
Waxwing
April 8, 2013 at 9:43 am
Captain William Coppin
‘Captain William Coppin was the remarkable and innovative sailor and engineer who established Derry’s 19th century shipbuilding industry – at one time the largest in Ireland.
Born in Kinsale, Co Cork, he trained as a shipwright and at 17 went to the Canadian port of St John, New Brunswick to work for a relation who owned a shipbuilding firm. That port was where most of Derry’s fleet was built and a “St John ship” was a guarantee of top class workmanship. So Coppin was in the best place to learn quality in design and construction.
Skilled in navigation, he commanded many ships to the Carribbean where he met Derry merchants. One of these, John Kelso, ordered a ship for the timber trade. This was the “Edward Reid” which Coppin built and sailed to Derry in a speedy 19 day voyage across the Atlantic in 1831.
This led to Coppin being offered the command of the “Prudence”, a passenger ship between Derry and Philadelphia which he captained for three years. In 1839 he bought Skipton’s shipyard at Strand Road and went back to building ships.
In 1840 he opened a foundry and engineering works to make engines and boilers and enlarged the slipway to take ships of up to 700 tons. With 500 employees it was the largest shipyard in Ireland at the time. In 1840 he built the “Barbara” for local businessman Daniel Baird & Co to serve the sugar trade from Mauritius and Puerto Rico.
In 1841, ten thousand people gathered to watch the launch of the “Maiden City” at Strand Road. But Coppin’s most famous vessel was to be the next, the “Great Northern” launched in July 1942 – at 1,750 tons, 220 feet long and with a 370-horsepower engine, the largest screw-propelled steamship in the world’.
Eileen Breen
April 8, 2013 at 1:07 pm
The shipbuilders must have had rock-star status with 10,000 people seeing a ship off. It’s an amazing period of history, emigration and invention.
Eileen Breen
April 9, 2013 at 6:11 pm
From Belfast Commercial Chronicle dated 28 July 1832:
http://ied.dippam.ac.uk/records
For the ship Royal William (owned by Corscaden, Munn, Malcolmson and Bell) that sailed 8 Aug 1832 from Londonderry to NY for the passenger trade. A few cabins were for wealthier passengers. The advertisement listed sixteen agents from: Omagh, Newtonstewart, Castlederg, Strabane, Ballybofey, Donegal, Mount Charles, Enniskillen, Irvinestown, Ballyshannon, Letterkenny, Cookstown, Maghera, Coleraine, Newtonlimavady (Newtown Limavady), and Londonderry. A Richard Corscaden was the agent for Donegal and James Corscaden and Company was agent in Londonderry. The ad listed their agents.
Waxwing
April 10, 2013 at 7:33 pm
So I guess some queries with the network of emigration agents being so well-established are:
Did any of these agents handle the waxwings’ emigrations?
Did the railroad or Duffy, much as DuPont did, make contact with any of these agents to recruit for them?
Did the waxwings just apply for places on ships as ordinary-paying passengers?
Did they just take pot-luck and arrive jobless and/or were they pressganged by Duffy on the quayside?
Waxwing
April 2, 2013 at 7:45 am
Matthew 7:16 ‘By their fruits shall ye know them’.
The DuPonts had just narrowly escaped the holocaust of the French Revolution that erupted at the tail-end of the so-called Age of Enlightenment. This Age brought about not only the French Revolution but the American Revolutionary War and, amongst other things, it would have made kindred spirits of the DuPonts and Jefferson, American ambassador to France at the time.
Jefferson, a supporter of the French Revolution, was presumably aghast when it went horribly wrong but both the duPonts and Jefferson were followers of Rousseau who is ‘credited’ with being the inspiration behind the French Revolution. Rousseau is also thought to have inspired the Illuminati of the time to which the duPonts are alleged to have also belonged:
http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/Illuminati-Jesuits(1521499).htm
http://www.orderofilluminati.com/index_files/illuminati_history_page2.htm
Take your pick, Kant or Rousseau, the duPonts most likely had some twisted world-philosophy which regarded individual human life expendable in the name of the ‘common good’, much as the Jacobins believed. Why the DuPonts were supporting the King of France, who was direct descendant of the king who was guilty of the genocide of the Huguenots, is anybody’s guess for now. Either way, the ‘DuPonts’ had it coming to them – ‘if you sup with the Devil you need a long spoon’. The death of three score Irishmen at Duffy’s Cut would not have unduly bothered them. As Meg Mulrooney casually points out – the DuPonts selected Catholics for the dangerous jobs in the powder mills and they sent the Protestants to the safer number, the textile mills.
Waxwing
April 2, 2013 at 8:37 am
Quotes from a Favourite Philosopher (Voltaire)
‘I never made but one prayer – “Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous” – and He granted it!’
On his deathbed and on being asked by a priest to renounce Satan and all his works – “Now is not the time to be making new enemies!”
‘Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers’.
‘I do not agree with much of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’.
Waxwing
April 2, 2013 at 9:24 am
‘I’m Done with Bonaparte’
If there is one nation I despise more than the Welsh it is the French!
Sorry about the quality of the Chieftains video as they back Mark Knopfler better so a Berlin concert is thrown in for good measure.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=ICQidMNcGJk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DICQidMNcGJk
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=SHF6kpeOFSI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DSHF6kpeOFSI
Eileen Breen
April 2, 2013 at 11:44 pm
The Catholics were known to have the most dangerous jobs. If the emigration was voluntary then the Irish chose to take these jobs. The duPonts offered incentives for people to work there. How many jobs today offer incentives to maintain their employees?
From the article that Mary sent on rents in Donagh in Inishowen, there were a Michael and William Doherty who owed rents to the Carys. These two names appear on the John Stamp manifest. The other names in these letters don’t match any of our ships. Daniel Doherty was the rent-collector for the Cary family who seemed hard up for money when none one is paying their rent. The rent collector was dismissed for not getting their money. This Robert Cary may be a grandson to Robert Cary b. 1635. The letters were dated about Jan 6 1827-8 and Churchtown was also mentioned.
Waxwing
April 3, 2013 at 1:42 am
I was once for a brief period a family doctor in Inishowen and it was like getting blood out of a stone to get paid!
Eileen Breen
April 3, 2013 at 12:51 pm
The man on Ancestry who had the Beresford, Young, Watt and Carey tree wrote back but he didn’t have any answers. I do think they are all related in addition to Corscaden and MacClelland and that the duPonts are related to the Astors.
Eileen Breen
April 4, 2013 at 12:32 pm
The PBS film on Duffy’s, one of a series, is out, ‘Secrets Of The Dead’. Also, on the Duffy’s Cut homepage on Facebook they have the replica of the John Stamp.
Eileen Breen
April 5, 2013 at 7:24 pm
The George Cary Family owned a lot of land in 1848 in Donegal – Bredagh Glen, Craignahorn, Ballyargus, Creehennan (Moville), Neenalaeavin, Whitecastle and Redcastle.
Waxwing
April 6, 2013 at 8:47 am
Although substantial, not as much as you might think. These places are all in the top north-east corner of the Inishowen peninsula and would add up to a few thousand acres (three miles each direction let’s say). I cycled round them in about an hour. As far as I know, but I may be wrong, none of our waxwings were from there.
George Carey and Tristram Beresford were two of the initial Planters in Donegal, who were part of Sir Henry Docwra’s retinue and they are recorded as having ‘taken’ Tirhugh (Ballyshannon) in 1654. As part of the Docwra expedition they would have had a base in Derry/Donegal and the Carey-Beresford connection has been there for four hundred years or more.
Some Careys are reported as having come from Guernsey in the Channel Islands but for the most part they were from Devon in England:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rlylebrown/biocary.html
Tristram Beresford, an earlier one (?) was born in 1574 and was Manager of the London Corporation. He was grandson of Humphrey Beresford, Sheriff of Nottingham in England. Their ancestor was a John Beresford who died in 1475. All and more of the above are recorded in Burke’s Peerage.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p38600.htm#i386000
I’m still not at all clear how the DuPonts fit into this. They appear not to have had a physical presence in Derry (?) and yet somehow came to know nonetheless that Derry was a good place to go looking for labourers, rather than almost anywhere else in Ireland?
BTW Although the Watsons are continuing to look for much public exposure, it may be that their project has not made much of an impression on the academic community. Professor Meg Mulrooney, not so very far away in Virginia, had never heard of Duffy’s Cut. She has now though and she is very intrigued with our project.
Patrick
April 14, 2013 at 7:46 pm
This is on Lindel Buckley’s great web site
It seems that the lands originally were bequeathed to Tristram Cary, son of Edward Cary of Dungiven, and Sarah Brazier, widow of Paul Brazier, daughter of Sir Tristram Beresford.
“To my 3rd son Tristram Cary the two towns which I have in the Parish of Bovevy being parte of the lands which I hould from the Bishop of Derry and also the three quaterlands of Doneugh lying in the Barony of Enighowen”
George Cary was Tristram Cary’s son by ? and he probably inherited these three quarterlands of Donagh and established the branch of the Cary family, based at Tiernaleague. One of his sons was Micah Cary who married Mary Anne Hamilton, widow of Tristram Cary (possibly a second cousin) and died in 1789. He died intestate and so the lands held by lease under the Bishop of Derry were divided – 1/3 to the widow and 2/3 equally to the 8 children, 4 boys & 4 girls. Each child therefore received a 1/12. The eldest daughter, Mary Anne Cary, married Charles Hamilton; Martha Cary married William Rankin, Frances Cary married Samuel Rankin (not a brother but almost certainly a cousin of some kind to William) and Jane Hamilton Cary married Thomas Levet Metcalfe. The eldest son was George Cary who left, probably having reached a settlement with his youngest brother Robert of an annuity in exchange for his 1/12 share – this is mentioned in Robert Cary’s will. William Cary died prior to 1813. Tristram Cary married but little is known about him, although various family letters refer to him. Robert Cary the youngest did not marry, but did have an illegitimate son, Matthew Cary, to whom he left property in his will and who is also referred to in some of the family letters as having gone to sea. When Mary Anne Cary (mother) died abt 1813 she left her 1/3 share to Robert Cary, this must have caused a certain amount of family friction because advice was sought from Counsel as to whether she had the right to will her one-third share in this way.
Robert Cary took over the management of the estate for the rest of the family but clearly from the letters, this caused yet more aggravation and by 1820s he was getting thoroughly fed up. There appears to have been some division of the holding within the family, such that some of them were collecting rents etc on their own behalf. The initial agent, as far as Martha Rankin nee Cary and her son Samuel Rankin were concerned, was Robert Moore, however he clearly had a falling out with Robert Cary and is dismissed as agent. Robert Cary then appointed Dan Doherty as agent, possibly for the whole estate but certainly for himself and his sister. Dan Doherty seems from the letters to be a less educated man than Robert Moore.
Eileen Breen
April 8, 2013 at 12:22 am
Thanks, Mary, for all the Beresford family peerage information and the 1812 article. It’s interesting that Captain John Beresford was sent by the British to fight in Delaware in the War of 1812. E.I. duPont and his brother Victor were very industrious and profitable selling gunpowder and uniforms for the War. It’s interesting that duPont and Beresford were Masons and that their goal was imperialism, promoting the Masons and the Crown. Also, did duPont chose to side with the US did he just make a profit?
Eileen Breen
April 9, 2013 at 4:05 pm
The DuPonts were Huguenots. It’s interesting that he would choose to go against his own people. In the War of 1812 he and his brother had created their own militia, not to protect the US but to protect their own interests. The DuPonts seem not to fit the Masonic or Imperialist viewpoint. They seem to stand apart from the rest of the H.I.S.(Honourable Irish Society).
Waxwing
April 9, 2013 at 5:28 pm
A Query I sent off to Prof Dolores O’Reilly (author of ‘Atlantic Gateway’).
‘Some quick queries please, as you are one of the authorities on Derry as an early emigration port.
Did the duPonts have any hands-on dealings with Derry shipping agents or were they just one of the regular users of the facility?
Were the Derry emigration agents, such as Daniel Baird, Cary McClelland and others, complicit in securing young fit males from the Derry hinterland to build the Pennsylvania railway?
Did the HIS (Honourable Irish Society) or Freemasonry have any vested interests in the emigration trade in Derry’?
Not holding my breath for a reply!
Eileen Breen
April 1, 2013 at 11:27 pm
The duPont’s were very involved in their church, perhaps also in Londonderry. Was there a St John The Baptist Church (Protestant) in Donagh? There also was the manor of St John The Baptist, a H.I.S. Company and lands, above the Grocers land in Donegal.
Eileen Breen
April 1, 2013 at 11:13 pm
Thanks Patrick: Perhaps you’re right about Cary, Young and McCorriston. I haven’t seen the third name before. Perhaps he’s part of the Beresfords or H.I.S. I’ll put this up on Ancestry and see if anything else comes of it. This could also be our Donegal connection.
Eileen Breen
April 2, 2013 at 12:55 am
The name Tristram has appeared several times in the Beresford tree. Tristram Cary, born in 1646 in Inishowen, was Lieutenant of Coleraine and he died 1726. His father was George Cary of Redcastle and his mother was Jane Beresford. His spouse was Eliza Mokton b.1650 and his siblings were Frances, George, Elizabeth, Lettice, Capt Edward Cary, Henry, Ann, Mary and Edward. There was a reference to a will in Dublin but I could only see the reference number and no details for Tristram and a few others in the family.
On Ancestry on the UK site there was someone researching Youngs of Culdaff and Inishowen. They had in their tree, Young, Watt, Beresford and Cary. MacClelland and Corscaden were not in this tree. They had several John Youngs but one was born in 1761 in Liberia and died in 1834 in Bath, Somerset, England. We found the John Stamp with a John Young, Master and Cosignatory with R. McClelland in 1835.
So this is probably not him but maybe one of the other John Youngs in the family might be ours. I wrote to see if he knows anything. I saw a Watt family researching the Beresford tree. I found the Tithe Applotment that Patrick said for 1828 for Donagh, Donegal.
Still trying to find church records for Tristram Cary as Carey may be related to MacClelland. I noticed one of the main faiths was Methodist and one of the societies the duPonts belonged to was a Methodist society: The Holy Brotherhood.
Waxwing
April 1, 2013 at 6:04 pm
Prompt and Helpful Reply from Prof Meg Mulrooney
“Well, I had to do a bit of online sleuthing to learn what Duffy’s Cut meant, but I can see that you have a fascinating project!
Unfortunately, I can’t help you much. It is indeed possible (perhaps probable) that the du Ponts supplied powder to the railroad. They were the dominant supplier of black powder in the US after the war of 1812. Ledgers of all sorts survive at the Hagley archives in Delaware and the staff there might be able to point you to online aids that reference the PCR.
In my research, I read closely the many records documenting chain migration from Northern Ireland, especially around Derry. The du Pont company’s system of assisted migration applied only to itself; it did not ever partner with other firms unless they were its own subsidiaries and these were textile mills. The details are in chapter two of my book.
Finally, no, the du Ponts were not Freemasons. They were either radical freethinkers or evangelical Episcopalians. I did find some evidence of Protestant Irish employees belonging to Masonic orders, but very little because while most of the powder workers were from Ulster, they were mostly Catholic. The Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Methodist Irish worked in the textile mills, in the machine shops, as waggoners etc”.
In Reply to Query from Waxwing:
Happy Easter
Several of us have been researching Duffy’s Cut from a different angle to that of the Watson brothers – more from an Irish perspective. We would be keen to know if:
The DuPonts supplied black powder to the PCR railroad during the time of land clearing in Lancaster County PA?
They had any formal arrangement with the shipping lines in Derry (Cooke Line and McCorkell Line) for the transport of workers from North West Ulster to lay the tracks of the railway?
They had any association with Freemasonry?
Eileen Breen
April 1, 2013 at 8:44 pm
One of the records that the earliest duPont family had was of a membership in a Lodge in New York where Pierre Samuel was of the Illuminati. Another record states that they were in the Holy Brotherhood which was a Methodist group of two brothers at Wesleyan University. Numerous family members said that the duPonts wee Masons. They were affiliated with building a children’s hospital and they were in St John The Baptist Church in Wilmington which were Mason charities. E.I. duPont, from his ledgers, gave to the church on numerous occasions and one son was an Episcopalian. In Indiana, Cornelius was a slave-owner and he had involvement in the railroad in duPont, Indiana, starting in the 1850s.
The reason the duPonts in 1800 may have been held at sea on the American ship, Eagle, for 105 days might have been because of the quasi-war from 1800-1809. France had a shortage of grain and a war with England and allowed French ships to take cargo from any English ships. Napoleon also wanted to destroy the English economy by funding duPont’s equipment for the munitions factory and Holland’s Land Purchase scheme. I haven’t found the manifest yet. One account said the ship came from Holland to Rhode Island. I also added more to E.I.’s profile on Ancestry.
Waxwing
April 1, 2013 at 11:05 pm
Yes, I thought Meg’s reply was a bit perfunctory.
I think mega-stars in any sphere, including business, would have a natural flair for practising the dark arts. They would know what to with-hold from public scrutiny and what to declare so as to create an illusion of transparency. My gut feeling tells me my conspiracy theory about the duPonts still holds water, despite Meg’s assertions. In short, I think the DuPonta were ‘up to their necks in it’, whatever that was.
Question: were these Illinois DuPonts of the same tribe as the Delaware ones?
Eileen Breen
April 1, 2013 at 11:24 pm
I think the Illinois duPont’s and the Delaware ones are the same. I saw in the duPont’s tree they had the name Cornelius duPont. The name of the town in Illinois was duPont. Perhaps the Delaware group did the sail-ships (cargo and passenger) that did the trans-Atlantic crossing and the Pennsylvania canal ships (Christiana and E.I. duPont).
The town the duPont’s lived in was Christiana. Also I saw an ad for a new ship that was launched for the canal system in 1831 called the E.I. duPont. The Indiana group must have been into using trains for transporting cargo in 1850s. They were also slave owners in Indiana and I also saw slave plantation records in Caribbean. I have to go back and look at it again but the owner was a duPont.
Eileen Breen
April 1, 2013 at 1:21 pm
In the duPont letters they spoke about the agents and they listed that Londonderry only sold 750 pounds. The other agents sold much more. The McKendrick letter went to Robert Taylor agent in Philadelphia, then to E.I. duPont. Charles Victor duPont took over the business in 1834. There was a mill in Londonderry prior to 1832.
Eileen Breen
April 1, 2013 at 1:57 pm
The Honourable Irish Society managed the Londonderry Port and represented Government. Their offices for the Harbour Commisission were on Shipquay Street, near James Corscaden’s office. The Londonderry Port transported passengers and supplies owned by Londonderry merchants who were of the H.I.S. DuPont had his munitions factor in Londonderry and there is a current DuPont company in Maydown outside Derry and near Lisahally port.
E.I. duPont died in 1834 and his brother Victor died in 1827. E.I. duPont’s son, Charles Victor duPont, took over the company in 1834 but he probably worked at the company during 1832. There were several agents for the cannonball munitions and the Londonderry Port was least profitable. The Londonderry Port is also where the Cooke and McCorkell ships came out of.
Eileen Breen
March 31, 2013 at 1:24 pm
I think the letter Mary found from the petite ledger from the duPont collection is part of the other two letters from Robert Taylor to E.I. dePont for payment. The first two letters were dated 24 Feb 1832. I’m not sure it’s our Bernard and Biddy McIlhenny. The other names on the list I looked up were also not on our other three ships. In a Wilmington, DE (Philadelphia) Directory there were a Bernard, a Biddy and another McIlhenny. The forth (Mary) listed in the letters was not found with this family but in an asylum.
I was looking at an earlier post made in November about major land owners and it listed a Tristram Cary. The Beresfords have three family members with this first name and someone in their tree has a middle name with the name Carey. Tristram Cary is maybe in the Beresford tree. Also there is a Cary MacClelland is in the H.I.S.
The DuPonts have some interesting pictures. One is a painting where the grandmother of E.I. duPont is giving E.I. duPont the recipe for the powder at age of fourteen. The second is a drawing of Pierre Samuel duPont and two of the three sons, Eleuthere (E.I.) and Victor; the third son died in infancy.
Victor headed up the Derry operation and immigrated on 1st January 1800 to Rhode Island after the French Revolution. The Derry mill was the least successful. Other articles suggest they were all Masons and Protestant. The grandmother was a mystic and three three were in the highest degrees of the Masons. E.I’s son Alfred was an Episcopalian. I think the H.I.S. knew about their practices.
If the father Pierre Samuel was at a level of nobility then he would have inherited into the Masons. They also said Samuel was in the secret society,’The Holy Brother’s Club’. There is a photo of this club under Pierre Samuel duPont de Nemours. There are about thirty DuPonts researching them and another researcher is a Watt. I’m not sure if Master John Watt (of the ‘Creole’ and related to James Corscaden) was married or related to the DuPonts.
A question from yesterday was why they only chose to give munitions to the Union army. One of E.I. DuPont’s sons was in the Union army. They had a long history of being in the service in France and US. One of them went to Andover, a military college near Boston.
Happy Easter Everyone
Waxwing
March 31, 2013 at 7:58 pm
Victor DuPont died in 1827 so he could not have had anything to do with the 1832 sailings out of Derry?
Unless there are other McIlhennys who sailed from Ireland to PA in 1832 they have to be ours?
I guess the DuPonts would have stayed on the same side as Jefferson. They owed him favours, irrespective of any pseudo-patriotic feelings they might have had. They had also already tied their colours to the mast by enabling the Lousiana Purchase on behalf of Jefferson.
The more you study these people you think they must subscribe to the Marx philosophy – Groucho, not Karl -’These are my principles, take them or leave them – but, then again, I have others ….”
Mary Cornell
April 1, 2013 at 2:58 am
I have not found any DuPonts in Derry in 1832. My thought on the McIlhennys is that it would be unlikely that there would be two Bernard and Biddy McIlhennys traveling together to America, in 1832.
BTW.
The McIlhenny family founded the Tabasco Company in Louisiana. Louisiana was a French territory before the DuPonts brokered the sale. I still wonder about the phrase ‘sent for’ in the DuPont letter. Were the McIlhennys summoned to America or was it simply an acknowledgement of payment for passage?
Trivia:
The terms right wing and left wing began in the French Assembly. If you were conservative and a status quo believer, you would sit on the right-hand side of the assembly. The liberal and change-minded would sit on the left hand side of the Assembly. If you could not make up your mind, you sat in the middle.
During the Revolution, especially under Robespierre, those members on the left slowly worked their way to the right and then out the door to the executioner. New left members thought themselves safe from Robespierre until one day they realized they were on the right side. I guess you could say that the exit was to the right. I wonder how long it would have taken the DuPonts to move around the room were they in the Assembly.
Waxwing
April 1, 2013 at 9:59 am
I agree but can’t be absolutely sure just yet. I think there was no physical DuPont presence in Derry either by Victor or anyone else. If not, it begs the question as to how the DuPont link-up came about in the first place and how it was kept going. Also, what was the package that was being offered and how was news of it being broadcast? Was any such package being offered only to people in the North West of Ireland (not, for example in Tipperary where Duffy came from)?
Then there is the peculiar comparative cessation of shipping out of Derry during a lengthy number of years post-1832. Why did it dry up and did something happen to cause that? What was the connection if any with the Famines or other change of social pressures and circumstances in the 1800s? If there was, why should that be, as DuPont was a business and not a Benevolent Society?
More questions than answers?
Patrick
April 1, 2013 at 4:23 pm
Going through the Tithe Applotment for the parish of Donagh there is a Tristram Cary, a John Young and a H(?) McCorriston, who have small pockets of land about 1.5 acres in size. If these are the same men who seem to be a wealthy lot why these small pockets of land, a holiday home of some sorts perhaps. It’s also worth noting the names of their neighbours and while it may be a wrong suggestion perhaps the recruiting for the John Stamp was done from here. I also wonder if the other ships’ passengers were recruited from other parishes in a similar way in some sort of orderly fashion i.e. one ship filled with folk from one parish then the next ship from another.
Mary Cornell
April 1, 2013 at 9:02 pm
I think you might have something, Patrick. Maybe a certain number of men recruited at specific times to fill specific requests from across the ocean. Less noticeable than a large recruitment and parishes would not be completely depleted.
Eileen Breen
March 30, 2013 at 1:21 pm
I tried to find out if duPont owned a railroad. The only thing that came up was his shipping business , a ship he launched in 1831 called the E.I. duPont that used the waterway canal system and about the waterway system. It may have been how the P&C RR received it’s goods at Duffy’s Cut.
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 3:55 pm
DuPont Expendables
‘Black powder, as gunpowder was called then, was used for much more than just hunting. Mining and railroad companies used it for blasting away rock, and farmers used it to clear land. Making gunpowder was a very dangerous business. There were 288 explosions at the DuPont mills resulting in 228 deaths. Often, local people were afraid to work in the mills, so the company brought many workers from Ireland and Italy’.
from http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/hagley-a-place-in-time.pdf and
http://www2.dupont.com/Phoenix_Heritage/en_US/1804_a_detail.html
Eileen Breen
March 31, 2013 at 12:28 am
DuPont Letters
Alfred duPont in 1848 in his accounts purchased beer for the powdermen and coffins. Prior to this entry there were lettere relating to several explosions settling estates of two people. In April1847, there was an explosion where eighteen men died. In Alfred’s later records they referred to business with the BrandywineRR and a few others. I didn’t see the P&C. I think the Philadelphia RRs were first followed by the P&C. I did see another article that suggested the duPonts sold munitions to railroad entrepreneurs.
E.I. duPont and his father fought in the French Revolution and his father was raised to the level of nobility. After the revolution nobility were seen as people who could restart a revolution so they were politically exiled. Perhaps that’s why they chose Ireland first to emigrate to because it was close to home. They later emigrated to Rhode Island in 1800, NY and Wilmington, DE. I just read he helped negotiate for land in West Florida. The Beresfords had a large estate in Florida on the St John’s River. I also read E.I’s father was a Mason.
Waxwing
March 31, 2013 at 9:02 am
The Plot Thickens
I think we are going to have to name ourselves The Hardy Boys Club as my alternative conspiracy theory isn’t so weird and wonderful after all! Even as it stands, this could have been grist to the mill for Mary’s chapter but I wouldn’t want us all to be sued by the great DuPonts! Maybe Julian Assange could run with it?
A few corrections to the DuPont narrative that Eileen has proposed for them while in France which helps to show what conniving, slivering or double-dealing b……s they were. I use that intemperate language to underline that this is where the real story is, not with vanishing horsemen!
1. The Huguenots were the victims of ethnic cleansing in France, much like the Pol Pot massacres in Cambodia. As a result, the Protestant religion in France was wiped out, with deaths and exiles being almost on a scale with the Great Famine in Ireland. This was all done under the authority of the French monarch.
2. There was a significant presence of Huguenots who fought in Ireland for William of Orange. Some were already living there and others may have stayed behind, having been granted favours for services rendered.
3. These DuPonts not only escaped all of this but ccsied up to Louis XVI of France, a direct descendant of Louis XIV who wiped out their co-religionists and fellow countrymen.
4. Seen as being favourites of the king, these Duponts somehow managed to stay in France and were targets of Robespierre before they narrowly escaped the guillotine.
5. The Jacobins who guillotined the French monarchy wanted to invade Ireland in 1798 but the United Irishmen would not go for it. There was a lot of unrest in Ireland and fear of a French invasion. Uncomfortable times for all Huguenots in Ireland.
It is easy to spot the family traits in this potted earlier history that probably served them well in the US as well. Not nice people! The image of buying beer and coffins for slaughtered powdermen but continuing to ship over replacements from Ireland makes the skin crawl! The question is how much the HIS knew about all of this?
Heaps other questions as well but that will do for now.
BTW
Prof Margaret Mulrooney’s next edition of her book on the DuPonts,’Black Powder, White Lace’ will have to be renamed ‘Black Powder, Black Soul’?
As Mary said, Happy Easter.
Mary Cornell
March 30, 2013 at 4:25 am
I concede that duPont was probably the more powerful, but there does not seem to be any ill-will between the power players and Duffy died a wealthy man. The question that came to mind while thinking about this was ‘why the Irish’? Why were the Irish of Northern Ireland recipients of the supposed philanthropy of duPont, the French nobleman? Were there not those in France that would have also benefited from duPont paying for their passage especially in the years after the French Revolution? Weren’t there those in France who would have crossed the seas for a job in a duPont factory? Why the Irish in the duPont factories in America?
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 9:36 am
The affinity of duPont for all things Derry continues to this day and it was the largest single employer in Derry throughout the Troubles
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/dupont-factory-50-years-in-the-making-28576316.html
The bond between Derry folk and duPont remains very strong. I remember once trying to educate my six year old nephew into how rubber was made and I said “Did you know that rubber comes from trees?” His Dad worked in duPonts and he looked at me as if I had two heads before quickly retorting “Not round here it doesn’t. It comes from duPonts!”
BTW The duPonts were Protestant (French Huguenots) so the connection may have had something to do with that. Ireland had been a place of sanctuary for exiled Huguenots for centuries following the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre – the Patchills being a case in point – and the duPonts likely knew that.
From a more hard-nosed point of view, it may not have mattered much to duPont whether Irishmen or Chinamen built the PPR railroad – it was mainly Irish who built the bit that started at the east, the Chinese built the bit that started at the west. Be that as it may, there seems to have been a patchwork of motivations at play here?
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r009.html
The book by Margaret Mulrooney, ‘Black Powder and White Soul’, may shed more light on it but one possible angle might be:
The Duffy’s Cut episode had nothing to do with Famine or forced eviction in Ireland (the pattern of emigration was too patchy)?
It may have had little to do with Orangeism or Freemasonry (why select your own kith and kin to put them in harm’s way)? Although Huguenots were big into Freemasonry.
http://tamrin.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=religions&action=print&thread=1336
The Watsons were right about the John Stamp (the mix of passengers on that ship was too slanted towards young fit men and not towards family units)? The other ships that Summer were just ordinary emigration ships.
Duffy and duPont were co-dependent. There was big money to be made, more so by duPont than by Duffy for whom it was a one-off project (duPont’s explosives were no use in clearing land unless the rubble was cleared by the rabble)?
It was dangerous work and in difficult terrain for inexperienced young men totally unused to explosives. This was no mass murder but a tragic and avoidable accident?
The disaster would have meant ruin for duPont and he was the villain of the piece and architect of the cover-up as muh as Duffy?
Any cholera victims would have been no more than the customary 15%, probably less as they had a source of clean running water in the stream?
Deaths by a blast that went wrong would have been easily covered up and caused no remark amongst survivors?
There are not fifty bodies under railway sleepers still to be dug up as the remainder of the work crew went home to Ireland as they had had enough?
The weavers on the John Stamp went to the duPont linen mills in PA?
DuPont and his descendants knew the true story and felt a burden of guilt over the whole tragic affair but could not be touched?
It is easier to blame mysterious vanishing horsemen than Big Business and pillars of society?
How’s that for a conspiracy theory? It might be at least as credible as Hibernophobic native Americans and mysterious vigilante horsemen?
Mary Cornell
March 30, 2013 at 3:36 pm
Your theory works as well as any others, in fact better than some. It hinges on one assumption being true and that is that these accidental deaths would have been the ruin of duPont. I don’t think so. These were harsh times with ruthless men at the helm. What’s a few deaths along the way? I doubt duPont or Duffy gave it a second thought. Bury the men and get on with it.
This does beg the question. How were these men replaced? Was another ship in the harbor two months later with fresh young faces? The cut was finished on schedule or close to it. The time lost during this summer seems to be insignificant.
Why weren’t there more Huguenots in the mix?
Why were all of the men Catholic per the Watson’s assumption? More expendable in everyone’s mind?
Were the wealthy elite ‘cleaning house’ in the north?
Vigilante horsemen brings to mind the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 4:18 pm
Half the crew were Protestant by my reckoning so religion wasn’t a factor.
Other Trivia (recapping Eileen’s earlier post)
The DuPonts were big buddies of President Jefferson.
The DuPonts helped to secure the Louisiana Purchase.
Native Americans were shy of being slaughtered in their hundreds, on railroads and in mills, by DuPont and his black powder.
DuPont on more than one occasion sent to Ireland for more cannon fodder to replace his slaughtered workers.
He always played his card right. Not a bit squeamish about his workers being killed by his powder, he refused to sell it to Confederates, posing all the while as an arch-patriot.
He was the main supplier of gunpowder to the American government.
Puzzle
Not at all clear if DuPont had any direct association with Derry or was his name just on a billhead.
Mary Cornell
March 30, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Clarification. The men who died at Duffys Cut were said to be all Catholic by the Watsons. The ship did carry equal numbers of Protestant and Catholic. So why only Catholic to the cut? Is the Watsons contention of Catholic-only wrong?
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 5:23 pm
I asked Bill Watson that question and his feeble reply was that he had friends and colleagues with Protestant-sounding names who were Catholic, and he named two for good measure! I guess he did his usual and made two and two into five just because those emigrants were mostly from Donegal – what would you do with him!?
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 8:09 pm
So who grants the peerage titles? The original Beresford’s lands were given to them by the Queen. Do they get these titles for service to the Crown?
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 10:12 pm
Any honour such as a knighthood, baronetcy or peerage is awarded by the reigning monarch of the day.
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 7:54 pm
We need to come at this from several sources.
I couldn’t find just one source of who owned the land. I disagree with you that McAfee’s site is not useful. It’s just one small part of the puzzle. Bill McAfee’s maps showed where all the clans were on native land, on church lands and on Crown land prior to the Plantation.
He also lists the lands where H.I.S. estates are in County Derry listed by their individual livery companies. You also have to look at how the land was divided during the Plantation and what their requirements were: English vs. Scottish; Principal Land Owners (called Undertakers).
Private investors were the Scottish Undertakers and businessmen who invested in the Plantation and who were English. The Scottish land owners had under three thousand acres and the English had four thousand acres. Other interest groups, Scottish and English, were Servitors, Livery Companies and the Church Of Ireland. The map of the Scottish Planters and Servitors also showed who had large estates of two thousand acres, 1500 acres and one thousand acres or less.
That’s why I started the Beresfords tree because we also need to see where the Crown lands were. The McAfree map also shows some of the Crown lands. Tithe books would probably assist in finding native land owners who were given land if they pledged their loyalty to the Crown. Those that didn’t may have rented and I’m not sure of that source.
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 8:00 pm
We also have to look at each individual county to see who owns what. I was just curious if we could figure it out but now I read that the H.I.S. and the Royal Family didn’t use evictions to clear the land. The emigration could be better explained by discussing other factors.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 10:54 pm
NY Times article: I think they may have been referring to that Duffy’s Cut was about 2 miles in length and perhaps they figured it would take about 120 men to work an area that large. I think this is in the book. I think it’s still 57 in the ground according to the book.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 11:28 pm
I started a Beresford tree on Ancestry as there are a lot of people researching them.
1861-2 Griffith’s Valuation: William Beresford, Dongore, Antrim; James Beresford, Rathbeg, Dongore, Antrim; Isabella Beresford, Tobergill, Dongore, Antrim.
PRONI 10/3/1898 : James Beresford, aged 60, widow, Dongore. A Tombstone of 1810 listed a John Beresford and brother, Andrew, at St. John’s Church, Dongore, Antrim. Some of our names could be from here.
Of the other ships we are looking at, one I think had place names. I remember Limavady, New Buildings and townlands around there. These are H.I.S. lands. How did the Crown get freeholds? I understand Native freeholds were there before the Plantation but the Crown was there after it?
Waxwing
March 28, 2013 at 12:14 pm
My understanding is that the Crown took by force whatever land they wanted and then granted that land out as Freehold (free of charge) to Worshipful Companies or for services rendered or on lease. The length of the lease for Protestants was usually for three generations, which was as good as being Freehold. Catholics, if they were lucky, had the lease for one life and more commonly for 21 years which left them vulnerable to rackrenting.
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 2:28 pm
There is a good article from the NY Times on the Beresfords. They were to be found on both sides of the ‘Irish Question’. They were respectful of the Irish and Catholics on their estates and employed them at a time when no other Loyalists would. In recent times they also employed Catholics. The article interviews a current member of the Beresford family during the Troubles and also discusses past issues in Londonderry, thevPlantation, Allies of England, the london Companies and current events from the perspective of the Beresford’s participation during these events. Beresfords had many titles, including the Marquess Of Waterford, Baronet of Coleraine and Earl of Tyrone. Their land at Ashbrook, Derry, has been their home for four hundred years.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 6:02 pm
So that would mean different sections of that two mile track being simultaneously worked upon, perhaps from either end (60 men for each) and meeting in the middle? Either that or the death rate was a maximumof 57 out of 120 viz. around 40% and a massive conspiracy of silence amongst the workmen?
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 6:26 pm
I wonder what happened to the other 60% of the workman? Who were they?
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Interesting point, was Duffy anti-Masonic? If Duffy didn’t see the Irish in a good light he may have used his business to exploit the Irish. The Masons may have believed they were sending to the colonies the best choices of passengers to preserve the Masonic and Crown interests. They may on the other hand have had a mix of elite, middle class and the poorest classes of Masons sent over and also may have helped those in need.
The poorest classes could benefit from the Masonic Order if they earned it through work. It gave people a way to immigrate and to work up the ladder. In Ireland the Irish had no other way to improve except to emigrate but at the same time the Government didn’t give them any opportunity in Ireland to improve their social standing.
Masons could also be seen as exploitive of the Irish. From the Labor article, it was interesting that the trades that were held in such high standards in Londonderry rapidly deteriorated in the U.S. Trades that were once obtained through fully trained apprenticeship into highly skilled tradesman with a respectable salary and a career dissolved to mechanization and unskilled cheap labor. Why did the Masons loose their effectiveness in maintaining a skilled workforce in America?
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 7:33 pm
Next week I will put together a set of hypotheses and corollaries, much as one would do with any serious-minded research project. These will be based on the wide-ranging discussion we have had so far and all will be subject to some degree of proof-testing. Anything that is flimsy, speculative or incapable of being put to the test will be put down the pecking order of priority for further scrutiny. Once that is drawn up, I will link it to the site as a PDF document, much as I did with the Eagla na Galru document.
Mary Cornell
March 29, 2013 at 8:25 pm
It would seem more economical if the shanty town were in the middle of the two crews, serving them both at the same time. That does still come back to the question of the silence of the remaining workers.
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 6:14 pm
I was thinking about duPont. He was probably a Mason who supported the English trades who promoted and preserved the Crown through self-serving Masonic interests. It also seems like the Masons wanted to keep Northern Ireland as it’s own entity and to govern themselves but to support the English government. As a Mason duPont seemed to favour Anglo-French alliance and perhaps feared that Spain would invade. He probably supported the 1798 Act Of Union.
When duPont lived in Philadelphia he favoured Irish and French tradesman, In America, tradesman they wanted protection from the English government and many employers were Federalists who became very coercive. They interfered with ‘natural operations of a free market’.
Employers opposed increase of wages, right to strike, unions and journeymen’s societies. It would be interesting to see if E.I. duPont’s views continued with imperialism, using Masonic philosophies to promote his business, maintaining alliances (he was a French diplomat) and promoted the Crown’s ideals, or did he shift to a more Federalist view that favored Irish workers?
The Watsons contend he was coercive but he hired the Irish and gave them incentives, housing and paid them cost of travel for their families at at time when most employers didn’t. The Beresfords who were an upper-echelon family in Ireland also hired Catholics and they were fair to them on their estates.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 6:26 pm
All of this implies that Duffy, in manipulating and maltreating his Irish workers, could have been making a formidable enemy out of the Masonic Order and people such as duPont and the rest if the truth of what happened ever came to light?
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 7:31 pm
If the Beresfords were the Royal family they may have been Masons so Clearances were not part of their beliefs. The migration seems voluntary but there’s an undertone component though of imperialism. Nationalism, freemasonry and capitalism were the driving forces behind emigration, compounded by two famines and a high unemployment rate in Ireland.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 7:41 pm
As far as I know, the Beresfords came from nobility but were certainly not related to the Royal Family. They were obviously high-bred and moved in the right circles but that is about it. Their lineage can be found in Burke’s Peerage:
http://www.thepeerage.com/p2684.htm#i26833
As far as I can see, the Corscadens and McClellands did not make it into Burke’s Peerage.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 8:48 pm
Beresford Lineage (Burke’s Peerage)
John Bereford d.1475 m.Elizabeth Basset, Staffordshire, England.
Thomas Beresford d. 1473
Humphrey Beresford m. Margery Bardesley
George Beresford m. Eleanor Greene. he was Steward of Nottingham, England.
Michael Beresford d.1574 m. Rose Knevitt
Tristram Beresford b. 1574. Manager for Corporation of London. Lived in Coleraine.
Sir Tristram Beresford d.1673. Member of Parliament for Londonderry, Donegal and Tyrone 1656-66.
Sir Randal Beresford MP for Coleraine d.1681 m. Catherine Annesley
Sir Tristram Beresford MP for Londonderry, attainted by King James II (for being Protestant), m. Nicola Hamilton, d. 1701
Marcus Beresford, 1st Earl of Tyrone, MP for Londonderry, b. 1694 d.1763 m. Catherine Power (Baroness de Paor).
Rt Hon John dePaor Beresford, b.1737, m. Barbara Montgomery
Henry Barre Beresford, b.1784 m. Elizabeth Baily, d. 1837
John Barre Beresford,
George Beresford, b. 1826 m. Anne Conyers
Tristram Beresford b. 1851.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p2684.htm#i26833
http://www.parkvillage.co/index.php/learmount/learmount-castle/
The general impression of the Beresfords is of a family that has been in decline for the past two hundred years.
Mary Cornell
March 29, 2013 at 8:11 pm
To Don’s post on Duffy running afoul of duPont – Duffy had the railroad company behind him. At the time, they were more powerful than duPont and duPont was dependent on the trains for his shipments. duPont had more to fear from Duffy than the other way round.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 1:02 pm
E.I. duPont de Nemours and Co. were the financial overseers making decisions as to how many went on the ship according to the tonnage of the ship. They also set the price for adults, children and provisions if provided. Robert Taylor forwarded the payments to E.I. duPont and had to go through them for everything financial to do with ships.
James Corscaden was the shipping agent in Derry, although I have seen records of him in Philadelphia also. E.I. duPont and James Corscaden were diplomats with connections to Londonderry and Philadelphia. Thanks Mary for the letters – I didn’t see them. It gives further evidence as to how their business worked and who they were. I believe Corscaden and E.I. duPont were Masons.
I would like to find out how they selected passengers. Although the migration was voluntary and there was a famine (as Patrick said) in 1831, and a high unemployment rate I think members of the H.I.S. may have done some recruiting off their lands, namely R. McClelland. On the Bill McCafree site he has few properties leased to him during this time. Beresford also was manager for several properties. Corscaden had connections to Beresford through marriage and the Grocers’ land and a connection to McCorkle. There are about forty ships that E.I. duPont used in passenger and Cargo shipping trade. Perhaps looking at these ships will more information.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 5:03 pm
I found some Seamen’s Certificates for a John Beresford Young, Master of the John Stamp and related to Corscaden. Corscadens and Beresfords were also related by marriage so Young must also have been related to the Beresfords. John Watt, Master of the Creole, may also been related to Corscaden. The Watts were grocers, wine merchants and distillers in the 1829 directory.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 5:28 pm
The Beresfords and Hamiltons managed the Fishmongers’ Estate in the Manor Of Walworth. Barre Beresford made improvements and the land was taken back by the Fishmongers Company in 1820.
Tristim Beresford was Agent for the Harberdashers’ Estate in the Manor Of Freemore and Randell Beresford controlled it. R. McClelland brought people from Scotland to settle this estate. The Merchant Tailors owned the Manor Of St John The Baptist and the Agent was Michael Beresford.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 6:32 pm
I think the estates we need to look at are those managed by the Beresford Family. James Corscaden is related by marriage and the name Canning is from 1614 on the Ironmongers’ estate. Canning and Corscaden are related by marriage. The H.I.S. intermarried to keep everything in the family, from Ship masters to connections in business. The estates are the Marquis of Waterford’s Estate, the Ironmonger’s Estate in Castleagivey, the Merchant Taylor’s Estate, the Manor of St John the Baptist. R.McClelland leased lands on the Clothworkers’ estate in Articlave and the Haberdashers’ Estate in Ballykelly. I put up the map from Bill’s site on James Corscaden’s profile on Ancestry.
Waxwing
March 27, 2013 at 10:11 pm
I haven’t had a chance to assimilate all the Estate material as I am in Norfolk in England still during the week. My access to the internet is limited but I look forward to doing so.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 7:21 pm
Check out the various Passenger Acts from 1809 onwards which restricted the cramping and overcharging of passengers. But ship owners did continue to try to wangle their way round the terms of passage. In other words, shipowners did not monopolise the terms of passage but they did try to put their spoke in.
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 10:06 pm
I think E.I. duPont was more powerful than the U.S. rail roads (P&C RR). The rail roads in U.S. didn’t start until about 1829 and they were being planned and built. E.I. duPont was well established and still building his company. The duPont’s came from a long line of duPonts in France, Ireland and U.S. E.I.
duPont Nemours was a diplomat with many influential politicians, U.S. presidents and business contacts in his arsenal. He had a huge shipping company for munitions and passengers for the Trans-Atlantic trade and in S. America. I think he may also been involved in the canal waterway system prior to the onset of the rail roads in the Philadelphia and Delaware area. He died 2 years after Duffy’s Cut. In 1834, his company was worth 15 million dollars. He also had numerous government (US navy) and personal business contracts and was influential in US policies and negotiated the Louisiana Purchase. His sons and heirs were even more wealthy. The company is work 38 billion dollars today.
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 12:23 am
Not to mention that duPont’s business was explosives which would have been crucial to landclearing. He made his fortune in explosive production. Alfred Nobel, the inventor of dynamite was not born till the year after Duffys Cut so I would say fatal accidents and calamities would have been commn enough. The kind of terraon that was Duffys Cut would almost certainly have required explosives and in the wrong hands ….
I have never been convinced by the murder theory. I believe the same injuries could have been caused by a shard of rock travelling at speed. So, all in all, I think there would have been a co-dependency between the railroad and duPont and with Irish innocents possibly caught in the middle.
Eileen Breen
March 25, 2013 at 12:09 am
The Masons had the group that was wealthy, just as Patrick said, and the Lodges were for the middle classes as they had different ‘interests’. They had their benevolent component as they had an obligation to those who were downtrodden whom they would assist with paying the passage to Canada or another British colony if they were willing to work. It was all about making connections, furthering their careers, imperialism and making themselves and the Crown richer.
There was a woman’s group of masons that supported the men’s charities. Not everyone liked the Masons and some were in fear of them and the secret societies that intertwined with them. In America there were a few governors elected on the anti-Mason ticket. President Andrew Jackson, president during the 1830s and who encouraged Irish immigration and Irish owning land, was a Democrat and a Mason. I think there have been about fourteen US Presidents who were Masons and several who were in the Yale secret society.
Eileen Breen
March 25, 2013 at 1:37 am
Victor duPont had a long history of encouraging emigration to Wilmington, Delaware. He gave money to families to bring everyone over, offering free housing and gardens so they would owe their loyalty to him and his munitions and chemicals factories. duPont was Protestant. He built a children’s hospital and he supported St. John the Baptist church, both are signs he may have been a Mason.
Masons supported children’s charities and their patron saint was St. John the Baptist. The Masons’ or H.I.S. lands, the manor of St John’s, were above the Grocers’ lands on the east coast of Inishowen. The name Worshipful seen on Tithe Applottment Books meant honorable for H.I.S.
I think we need to look at Wilmington, Delaware for our John Stamp folks. FFT: If Peggy McKendrick paid for Samuel Doherty, how come they didn’t go back to Victor or Charles I. duPont when George Doherty from Donegal went missing?
Eileen Breen
March 26, 2013 at 11:53 am
Dutch capitalists loaned large amounts of money to the American Revolution and purchased four million acres in N.Y. and PA as payment towards their debt as part of what they called the Holland Land Company.
E.I. duPont, his two sons, son-in-law and French investors wished to take part in this scheme. They planned to set up a banking export business in N.Y. and the family purchased 214 shares of land with French investors: Lafayette, Beaumarchais, Duquesnoy, Rouseau, Portales and La Tour Mabourg.
They experienced difficulties in travelling from France to NY when their ship was held by the British for three months. Long delays in transatlantic communications between their company in NY and France caused them to loose vital time in being able to purchase the land for their ammunitions business.
The French government and investors were unable to pay for their portion of the investment, thus leaving duPont cash poor, and unable to pay off the equipment for the factories. They needed to be citizens of the U.S. for five years before they could purchase land. By this time the investments were taken.
During this time there was a war between England and Spain and Mexico was still a colony of Spain until 1821. In 1801 a treaty was drawn up between Spain and France. In America the American Revolution was recently completed and the war of 1812 was in the horizon.
President Jefferson asked duPont de Nemours to assist the minister to negotiate the Louisiana Purchase. The duPonts had established two companies and raised two-thirds of the capital to start the munitions business in Wilmington, Delaware. They also were established in Philadelphia and ports close to Washington, D.C. They had contracts with the French and U.S. Governments for their munition but even though they made a superior gunpowder they had difficulties in paying their debts as their investors were paying on credit.
A miscalculation of start-up costs of the munitions factory and two explosions in their mills in Derry put the duPont company into more difficulty as they tried to pay off their investment costs. The duPonts moved to the Philadelphia Port in Wilmington, Delaware because that is where they could acquire land. The upshot of all of this was that E.I. duPont and the financial end of the family business was the most successful. Victor DuPont didn’t seem to be as successful.
From the duPont letters E.I. duPont was also involved in the emigration business as he needed the Irish to work in his mills. At first the men emigrated but they had to have someone watch over their families at home. duPont encouraged further emigration by assisting woman and children of the men to move from Derry to Wilmington, DE a suburb of Philadelphia. In his letters he was asked by Robert Taylor if the fares could be reduced for children under ten years of age. This was seen in the Peggy McKendrick letter in Nov 1831 and the Travers family letter in 1830.
Waxwing
March 26, 2013 at 12:22 pm
Fascinating stuff. This is the kind of detailed knowledge the Watsons would be completely clueless about. Like I say, Eileen, you are a born historian. I would recommend that you have a card or other system to keep track of all this wealth of information you are coming up with – something I regret I didn’t do when I was doing my PhD.
Eileen Breen
March 26, 2013 at 3:16 pm
A duPont letter dated 24 Feb 1832 links James Corscaden with a Robert Taylor (shipping agent in Philadelphia), E.I. duPont of Wilmington, DE and two of the John Stamp passengers: Bernard McIlhenny aged 23 from Donegal (listed on the memorial in PA as one of the missing) and Biddy McIlhenny. There were two other names in this letter that I did not find on the John Stamp, Asia, Ontario or Prudence. The Peggy McKendrick letter had a Samuel Doherty listed with her. George Doherty also was from Donegal. There was a list of other letters from the duPont collection in 1831-32 but I didn’t see these names listed on any of our ships.
Eileen Breen
March 26, 2013 at 4:16 pm
The 1860 and 1870 censuses for Wilmington, DE came up with Bernard, Amelia and Daniel, but no Mary. On the John Stamp there were only a Bernard and Bedelia “Biddy”, no Daniel or Mary, so this may be another Bernard and Mary whom the duPonts are talking about.
In the 1880 census for Wilmington, Philadelphia there is a Mary in an asylum. I think the first letter were about our Bernard and Biddy. The second letter I’m not so sure of. I had trouble downloading the second letter to Ancestry. I put the first letter under Biddy and Bernard’s profile and James Corscaden’s.
Mary Cornell
March 26, 2013 at 4:16 pm
I noticed that most of the correspondence between Taylor and duPont that included James Corscaden were in 1832. Corscaden possibly the recruiter for duPont in 1832?
Waxwing
March 25, 2013 at 7:58 am
The Mason’s Apron
Perhaps the most famous ever Irish (or Scottish) fiddle (or flute) tune in the repertoire, played by the master and virtuoso himself, Sean McGuire from Belfast. McGuire, a classically trained musician and forerunner of Sir James Galway, took hold of what was a traditional but simple tune and he turned it into the ultimate test for an aspiring fiddle player. He starts off in an unfamiliar low key but he soon gets into his stride with the tune as we have all come to know it.
The title is said to be in reference to stonemasons (not Freemasons) as it has been said that until you’ve knocked enough skin off your knuckles with your mallet to make a whole apron, you’re not fit to be called a mason – hence the name!
Some prefer the Chieftain’s version of it, also on Youtube, played by their flute player, Matt Malloy. BTW James Galway started off his career as a junior member of an Orange band. He should go back and teach them how to play Rimsky-Korsakov’s ‘Flight of the Bumblebee’! That should learn them, as the saying goes.
Eileen Breen
March 25, 2013 at 1:11 pm
Mary, the two articles were great. It would be interesting to understand under what conditions the Masons acquired their land.
I heard of the tune the Mason’s Apron but I never knew the history. I’ll have to listen to both versions.
Mary Cornell
March 25, 2013 at 4:37 pm
Not to take away from the mastery of the flute playing, the song sounds much better on the fiddle. The nuances are more apparent.
A few years ago, I saw an interview that James Galway gave in which he said that even though he grew up in Belfast, the strife between the Protestants and Catholics was not really a part of his life. If he was a member of an Orange band, there were some leanings present in his life.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 4:16 pm
In the 1600s county lands in Derry, allocated to the Church and some native families, were called Native Freeholds. Four that are listed were O’Cahan’s, in Tirkeeran, Keenaught, Coleraine; O’Mullan’s, in Tirkeeran and Keenaught;McGilligan’s, in Ballycarton in Magilligan and Boveedy near Kilrea; and McCowell’s in Boveedy. There were no Native Freeholds in Loughinsholin belonging to the O’Neills. All these properties were in the old county of Coleraine.
In the 1654 Civil Survey only a few of these Native Freeholders remained and the land was sold to spectators. One of these was Beresford who was connected to James Corscaden by marriage. He was one of the most successful managers of several properties and he is mentioned in H.I.S. minute meetings in 1829-32.
Two private estates were owned by Sir Thomas Phillips, a servitor in Limavady and Mayola. Later this land was bought by the Connollys. The Connollys also purchased a Vintner estate in Bellaghy and Mayola. This property was later owned by Dawsons who named the area Castledawson.
I was thinking we could use this map and information from the Bill McAfee Treasury site and put in the names from the ships according to these lands owned by H.I.S. Companies.
On another subject, H.I.S. Corporation Minute books from 1829-32 refer to Stamp Fees. Freemasons were named in the minutes and they were required to pay a Stamp Fee to make it legal and to enter themselves as members of the Freemason Lodge. The minutes also invited Beresford to participate in the meeting. John Mitchell McClelland, son of Carey McClelland, was recommended for membership as a Freemason. Also mentioned is someone completing their term as an apprentice and recommending him to be a freemason. A McCorkell was also mentioned in the minutes. A note on the bottom of the page speaks about ‘Those admitted as Freemen of the city’.
The committee asked for the names to be entered in order of those who received The Freedom. They were to be admitted in order, admitted by birth, service, marriage or ‘established by Grace’. In order to enter as a Freemason, you could inherit it, be given an honorary membership like Winston Churchill or if you were an Apprentice to the H.I.S. you could work to earn the membership.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 6:04 pm
Bill McAfee’s site covers the mid-Ulster part of Derry only, no other counties, therefore of little value to this project?
Patrick
March 28, 2013 at 12:25 am
I don’t know if this is of any help but there was a Census done in Ireland in 1659. It gives the names of the land owners, the number of people in each parish, townland, Barony and who were English or Scottish.
Patrick
March 28, 2013 at 12:28 am
I should have added ‘Principal Irish Names’
Eileen Breen
March 28, 2013 at 1:27 pm
Thanks, Patrick I’ll check it out.
If all four ships we’re looking into turn out to have been connected to Leitrim, Fermanagh, Londonderry, Donegal, Antrim and Tyrone, these are areas where the Beresfords had their estates. I didn’t see anything about records in Donegal but Corscaden was from Muff and he was intermarried into this family.
I read the H.I.S. never had Clearances on their lands but we’ll have to see if the Beresfords did. Even though there was a Famine and a high unemployment rate in 1831 I read that half of Ulster left Ireland pre-and post-Famine I find it hard to believe that this many people left voluntarily. Perhaps they were encouraged by duPont and his housing, jobs and other incentives like paying the family to go to America. Mary’s article did bring up good social factors for immigration and they need to be considered when evaluating.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 10:38 am
I haven’t had a chance yet to digest all the recent material that has been flagged up but a thought occurs that would be as well to keep in mind?
There were very few of these particular emigrants who came from Derry. Does this mean the HIS, the Masons etc and such like were very poor recruiters? Albeit that they were Derry-centric, seemed to have the shipping trade pretty much sewn up, and had estates that should have been able to furnish enough people suitable for recruitment.
Why did they have to dredge Tyrone and Donegal instead? It doesn’t seem to me that they did and they either subcontracted the recruiting out or they had nothing to do with it? Or maybe it was a case of wheels within wheels, all those people being connected through marriage etc? If so, the McLellands had the boats but could not supply the people and vice versa for the Abercorns? Also, need to track back to see again who owned the linen mills in PA and whether the weaver emigrants on these ships were therefore all already fixed up with jobs before leaving Derry?
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 5:52 pm
FFT
With the possible exception of a select few parishes in Donegal, there did not appear amongst our Waxwings to have been a mass exodus from any particular parish. It was all very patchy. Neither was there any obvious correlation with evicting landlords nor rackrenting. This will have to be explored further to be certain. Also, Eileen has already listed the Freemason principles and any ‘forced’ emigration, in other words Clearance, would have run counter to those values.
Also, the reason why the Summer of 1832 should have presented itself as a golden opportunity to Duffy is a bit obscure. If memory serves, Duffy had been in the US in excess of twenty years by then, he was already middle-aged, he was not wealthy or otherwise why would he have had to lodge eleven labourers in his house and his credentials to carry out such a critical project were really quite questionable?
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 2:06 pm
Eileen forwarded the updated Duffy s Cut page on the funeral in Ardara. There is something prominently missing – the Watsons referred to it as the burial of the man from Duffys Cut. No mention whatsoever of the name John Ruddy in the headers. Hmmmmmm…..
Eileen Breen
March 25, 2013 at 1:42 pm
I think we need to look at H.I.S. lands and who the leasers were, then see if they appeared on any ship manifests as cosignitories, like R. McClelland. There may be connections from Sir Robert McClelland to C.I. duPont in Willmington, DE.
Patrick
March 26, 2013 at 12:42 pm
Printed in Yesterday’s New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/us/secrets-of-duffys-cut-yield-to-shovel-and-science.html?smid=fb-share
Mary Cornell
March 27, 2013 at 3:04 pm
NY Times even!
What I noticed is that the numbers are always changing and now it was 120 men. If that number is true, there were a lot of men who walked away knowing the secret. No mention of DNA, only the dental anomaly. It looks like the unproven assumptions are still being touted as fact. What I see here is sloppy detective work still.
Waxwing
March 27, 2013 at 3:42 pm
If you tell a lie often enough you start to believe it.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 6:04 pm
Totally agree!
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Agents:
Tristam, Thomas and Michael Beresford, Nicholas Elcock, Paul and George Canning, David Babington.
Some very prominent people leased this land and the small farmers were also part of these estates. McCorkell had the cross channel trade with his seven ships from Derry to England. Maybe the small farmers from his estates went to England to pick the harvest every year for seasonal work. Like migrant farmers they would follow the harvest and in the winter returned home. In 1832 there was a famine so maybe there was nothing to pick that year so they decided to go on the ships owned by H.I.S. and their landlords.
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 4:40 pm
The migrant workers could have been hired by H.I.S. to work their estates in and around Londonderry. A few of these estates were near each other outside Limavady and in Muff. When my mom was fourteen she and her brothers worked tobacco. A truck came to the city and all the kids met the truck. Then they went up north to the tobacco fields.
Corscaden was a grain manufacturer in Muff. The clothworkers and haberdashers had their estates in Artikelly and Articlave. Perhaps flax was grown there. In one of the directories I saw someone who was in flax. The John Stamp went down with raw cotton. So perhaps the younger workers worked locally and didn’t have to cross the Channel. If the middle aged ones did then maybe the H.I.S. paid the 2lb a head and hired a boat so workers could work H.I.S. lands in London.
The eldest workers worked the land on the estate or were weavers or farmers. It was four pounds to go to St John’s – the Manor of St John the Baptist, an H.I.S. colony then. It was seven pounds to go to America. So maybe a younger person contributed to his parent’s rent but didn’t have to pay the whole amount. Then after a few years money that was saved paid for a passage. If he worked in America the emigrant could get enough to send for the rest of the family. Are there any farm records for Muff etc?
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 5:59 pm
I think the reason H.I.S. had so many jobs was that they were each working the seven basic principles of Freemasonry.nEach person seems to have about seven jobs. We would need to map this out. I think they had to show they were working on the principles like the 12 step AA program. They probably had to say an oath which was their stamp to their allegiance to the King or to the masons to show how they were doing the steps. The seven principles may also apply to how they managed their estates. Need to find information on it. I read there are about fifty principles in freemasonry so maybe this is where the number fifty comes from.
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 6:09 am
So would these men consider themselves Freemasons first and Orange Order second? Were there different factions of the Londonderry Freemasons? Those who were good and those who were bad. The presence of the Freemasons is obvious, but the power seems to be held by the men who were more Orange than Free; as seen by their actions that went against all of the beliefs of the Masons. I think the Freemasons played a major role in the creation of Londonderry, but lost much of their influence to either the Orange Order or their own greed. The accumulation of wealth by any means was the order of the day.
Waxwing
March 23, 2013 at 7:46 am
This website seems to be fairly knowledgeable on the links between Freemasonry and the Orange Order
http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/orange.htm
I haven’t studied it properly yet but three riddles already spring to mind:
If supposedly both ‘fellowships’ are bound by the same principles, why is one so bound to secrecy and the other so vociferous?
How many, if any, of the Donegal evicting landlords belonged to the Orange Order and/or Freemasonry?
What was the connection between the landlords, Freemasonry, the Orange Order, HIS and the Established Church? A case in point is the Marquess of Conyngham in Donegal excusing his tenants from paying the customary tithes to the Church of Ireland in lieu of services rendered.
Some of the snippets I picked up from this e-pamphlet, things I already knew but not so widely known, are:
It makes reference to the support from the Pope for the Williamite Invasion.
Adherents believe they belong to a tribe of Israel known as Levites. [If so, at least half of Orangemen should belong to the DNA-haplogroup R1a1a (R-M17)]. Any takers??
Orangemen believe the 1641 Irish Civil War led to the massace of a hundred thousand Protestants [Mary's ancestors seemingly had some part to play in that War, although not in massacring presumably - see the front page of this website]
Orange prancing around on the Twelfth could be likened to the Maori haka. Historians put the figure around four thousand Protestants massacred. A further eight thousand died from exposure and hunger on being expelled from their homes. Oliver Cromwell repaid that crime in part through the Drogheda Massacre of around three thousand people. There was also the later massacre of Protestants in Wexford around the time of the Vinegar Hill rebellion.
londonderry
March 23, 2013 at 2:14 pm
I found this website quite interesting. Deep in the pages are some interesting historical things that I have not seen before – like the origin of ‘undertaker’. I am enjoying the research of all three of you. BTW, I have always wondered if my 6Grandfather, John Barnett was a Derry Boy. He was born in 1678 in Derry so he might have been on the young side e.g. 12-13. Keep up the research on your project. There may be more than one book here! When do you guys sleep?
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Hi, Vic
Its the different time zones. Gives the impression that we never sleep. We actually sleep in shifts so someone is awake at all times. 
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 3:14 pm
I have not finished reading the article yet, but the Orange Order seems to be picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are ‘correct’ and using them to advance their way of thinking. Those beliefs spew hatred and intolerance toward anything not of their liking. Even though the earlier Orange spoke of never showing impolite behavior toward Catholic brethren, the tenets of the Order would seem to make that an impossible task.
They are similar to the American evangelical Christians. Neither one bears any resemblance to the teachings of Christ.
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 8:37 pm
I am not exactly sure where my ancestors would have been in all of this. In the States they were Methodist Episcopal from the early 1800s forward. I do not know what they would have been in seventeenth century Ireland. Certainly not Methodist as it was before John Wesley. Coming from England, Episcopal maybe, or Church of England/Ireland. Or were they all one and the same?
Quick insights into my ancestors – my great grandfather once tried to start a church so that he would not have to pay taxes. It was called something like the Free Libertarians. My great-great-grandfather dropped the W in Cornwell in order to avoid the draft during the Civil War. His brother went to jail for being a horse thief. During the uprisings, they were most likely selling poteen on the road to or from the battle.
Waxwing
March 23, 2013 at 10:58 pm
Just to recap the main points of Mary’s earlier research as it related to her ancestors in the late 1600s into the 1700s (dangerous times indeed) in Northern Ireland:
A Cornwall was attainted by King James II and Parliament in 1689. The family most likely came earlier than that from Hertfordshire in England and they came to Ireland where they built or were otherwise associated with the Blackwater Fort in Armagh/Tyrone in 1575. It was there that articles of peace were signed with Turlough O’Neil, one of the main chieftains of Ireland. Through the line of Edward Cornwall who died before 6 March 1676 (named in the Hearth Money Roll of 1664) and Mary Mitchell of Annagry in Donegal, their four children included:
1. John Cornwall, of Cornwalls Grove in Newmills, three miles outside Dungannon, who married Barbara Lindsay (daughter of Dr. Alex Lindsay – second son of Robert Lindsay of Loughrey in Armagh – killed in the Siege of Derry).
2. Barbara, born 1674, buried 13 February 1747, of Newmills and probably Presbyterian.
3. John, born 1666, died 22 March 1731, who had eight children.
The impression is that the Cornells (Cornwells) moved in high circles. Like most courtiers, they may have fallen foul of the ruling elite at the time. If they owned Blackwater Fort, they were skating on very thin ice indeed.
Mary Cornell
March 24, 2013 at 5:36 am
I had forgotten about Blackwater Fort. I remember that we decided that the word was probably attainded, not attained. And that John Cornwall was sent to Ireland as punishment. John Cornwall was Constable of the fort during the 1570s. He was in charge of a very small guard. He was also a very bad caretaker of the fort. His removal was requested because of the deplorable condition of Blackwater. He remained for several more years until it is noted that there was a new Constable in place in 1583. Edward Cornwall later became Constable and was arrested for turning Blackwater over to the enemy. It was brought forward in his defense that he could not be held entirely responsible due to the condition of the fort.
I do not know if they were moving among the elite, but they surely seemed to fall foul both in England and in Ireland.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iR4OAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA104&lpg=RA1-PA114&ots=aHZmohuSgp&dq=John+Cornwall,+Blackwater+Fort&output=html_text
Waxwing
March 24, 2013 at 7:56 am
It all hinges on the word ‘attainder’.
A thorough definition and explanation of the legal term can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attainder
Anyone to whom the term applies has to have moved in high circles and in this case he came to the attention of the ruling monarch. That coupled with the Blackwater Fort connection clinches it for me.
The name Cornell (a variation of Cornwall) is from the South West of England. Cornish people are P-Celts, just like their Welsh and Breton cousins across the Channels, and linked to the Q-Celt Irish and Scots. According to Oppenheimer, all Atlantic Celts came from the the Pyreness after the Ice Age but the P-Celts didn’t make it across the Irish Sea. There were strong sympathies for the Jacobite cause in Cornwall and minor uprisings there as well. Who knows what side of the fence these early Cornells sat on?
As an aside, the hated Sir Charles Trevelyan who is usually held directly responsible for the millions of deaths of Irish people in the Great Famine, also was from Cornwall and appears to have had little sympathy for the plight of his fellow Celts. It’s a wonder that native Irish don’t burn his effigy, much as so-called Loyalists do with Lundy.
Eileen Breen
March 23, 2013 at 12:36 pm
I think there are different groups of Masons and many degrees. Some were in the Orange Order.
The wall:
If you draw a line from the Guildhall to each of the arches this is how the setting sun’s rays appear. The Diamond or center is the setting sun, the seven arches face the Guildhall.
Patrick
March 24, 2013 at 12:00 pm
I just wonder if the Freemasons of Ireland and Scotland developed a different set of principles from their English/American brothers and used the members of the Orange Order as foot soldiers if or when the Catholic natives should get out of hand.
Another version of class divide, if rich you can become a Mason but, if poor, well join the Lodge and keep us in power. A poor explanation I know but I hope you see what I mean.
Mary Cornell
March 24, 2013 at 4:17 pm
I am wondering if maybe the Orange Order hid behind the Freemason in order to disguise their true intentions. The class division would be continued into the lodge or the wealthy would not be members, right?
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 7:15 pm
The Masons believed you could choose two paths, one good and one bad. Adam and Eve came from the bad side, representing man. If you died they believed they would go to Heaven. If you choose either path you would be reincarnated. They didn’t believe in Jesus or the Christian faith. If you chose the bad path you could chose to lead a good path in your next life and be saved. I think this may be why they chose to colonize.
They were the “stewards of the land”, a phrase from a Masonic website. The land was a gift from their God. The Arch was their seven principles that they worked through each day and their jobs were how they worked through the principles. The land was a gift from their God and perhaps the people on it served another purpose other than choosing a path to live.
Perhaps the H.I.S. was the father-figure watching over the children. As a father he was protective of them and wanted them to lead a good life, just like the estates of Scotland had the father figure who watched over the people. In the film ‘Downton Abbey’, the talk was about the estates in England and how the father of the family felt responsible for the people and farmers on the estate. They may have hoped that by sending passengers to their colonies they could put them on the path to model a good life. They were modeling London by their example in Londonderry and they may have hoped to continue this tradition in the new colonies. By being stewards of the land they could select those that would lead by example. I need to find out more about the Masons as stewards.
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 7:25 pm
The Mason’s and H.I.S. seemed like they were very careful who they leased their land to. Bill McAfee on his site site talks about lands owned by twelve Livery Companies and at times another livery company asked to lease it and they refused. It seemed like each livery company kept the land with the individual company, perhaps because they held the same ideals.
From the Mason’s site I sent, some members of the Mason’s were also in the Orange order. Catholics were excluded. In the Masons there are 33 degrees. In the Scottish site there are additional degrees (perhaps McCorkell, Sir Robert McClelland from the 1700s and his sons were from this. From the Mason’s site, the Mason’s main headquarters in London is right next door to St James Palace. I think they shot the movie the King’s Speech from there where the King signs his first wartime speech.
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 10:07 pm
St John the estate, ship and the colony were most likely named for St John The Baptist. St John The Baptist for the Mason’s performed baptisms that absolved the original sin that Adam and Eve made (for the Mason’s the sign of the bad). The goat in Don’s movie was also a sign of the bad. The Masons believed you could choose two paths, one good and one bad as said before.
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 10:16 pm
Ironically the Masons who were stewards sent their people on their estates to a Mason Utopia to be saved and to go on the right path. Unfortunately for those in Duffy’s Cut suspicion and fear intervened with their great plan to create a Mason plantation called the “City Of Brotherly Love.” AKA Philadelphia.
Eileen Breen
March 23, 2013 at 10:24 pm
June 24th is St John The Baptist Day
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 11:21 pm
The number five was a mystical number to the Masons in addition to others. They have a symbol of a star with five points. They have the star chamber for all their business. Perhaps this is why they picked the number fifty livery companies. Currently there are 108 companies in London.
Eileen Breen
March 23, 2013 at 12:19 pm
When we talked about the indentured servant that was willed to Carey McClelland’s daughter I realized that in the 1600s during the Plantation Apprentice Boys of Derry closed the gates on the wall of Derry to prevent James I from entering.
Apprentices were mandatory in London in the 1500s to the 1800s. They didn’t have formal schooling until the late 1800s. The more prominent your parents were, and if they had the money to pay for an apprenticeship, the better off your outcome in life would be. the richest parents found and paid for apprenticeships for their children with lawyers, physicians and pharmacists. So I think Gwynn was an apprentice.
Children as young as four years old were chimney sweeps if they were poor. They even mandated a payment plan for parents to pay for the apprenticeship. I’m curious why the word apprenticeship was changed to Indentured servant in the southern U.S. I wonder if the Masters owned I.S. in the southern US, especially Philadelphia, if they were Masons.
The will of Indian Peter’s master and others in Philadelphia that I read seems very similar in wording to Cary McClelland’s will. That’s why I thought Peter was indentured because he used the words that Gwynn had in his will until his term was up. He was willed as property. I saw the name Gwynn on the Bill McAfee site and I think I emailed it to you. He was on one of the H.I.S. estates as leasing the land. Perhaps this is his father who may have been able to pay for an apprenticeship.
The wall:
I was thinking the blue sky was the symbol of their lodge but now that I think about this I think it is the night sky over the paradigm. That represents their lodge. In one of the articles I sent it talks about this. If you draw lines through the five points you see a star. It represents a mythical number for the Masons. So looking up at the sky at night all the millions of stars represent the paradigm (No. 5 and Mason’s symbol). They also brought the concept inside and a blue ceiling with stars represents their lodge.
Eileen Breen
March 24, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Londonderry Port was the preferred port, then Belfast, Newry, Sligo, Larne and Killybegs. Until 1800 the majority of Ulster emigration came through the Delaware ports of Philadelpha, Newcastle and Wilmington. Maybe that’s why we saw a Delaware address for duPont, from Robert Taylor shipping agent in Philadelphia, for the payment from Peggy McKendrick and Samuel Doherty.
There is a book, ‘Builders Of The Empire: Freemason’s and British Imperialism’, which looks into the subject in detail that we have been looking at. Freemasons encouraged the emigration of men, with the best choice of destination for being men Canada.
Imperial Lodges assisted needy Freemasons and their dependents. It drew colonists in closer connection with and empathic with Imperial matters. Freemasonry assist in the forming of those ytbonds of indisoluble attachment. Queen Victoria had many relatives who were Masons and she was honored to support them. She stated, “the society of Freemasons increases in numbers and prosperity in proportion as the wealth and civilization of my empire increases”. She also said of the Freemasons, “They have faith in God, a philanthropic spirit, fidelity to the constitution and patriotism. There is a reciprocal relationship between masonry and the Empire”.
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 6:13 pm
As far as I am aware, there was very little if any emigration from ports on the west coast other than Derry, such as Kilybegs or Sligo, nor from Belfast, Larne or Newry? Warrenpoint had a bit of traffic but not during this particular period. One would have expected much more traffic from these other ports to take in emigrants from places like Leitrim or Antrim but so far I have seen no trace of that and this is a puzzle. If we can put together a number of coherent and challenging questions, I can put these to someone like Dr Brian Lambkin in the Centre for Migration Studies in Omagh (forget Paddy Fitzgerald – a waste of time there). Perish the thought but I might even enrol for an MA under him when I have more time, just to get to the bottom of all this. I have little or no interest in acquiring another degree but if needs must ….
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 3:09 pm
Perhaps our farmers went across the channel to work for the harvest for a season or two before getting the money to make the transatlantic passage. On the estates of the Livery companies they were managed by various agents of the H.I.S. It wasn’t until the Wyndam Act Of 1903 that those farmers living on those estates were allowed to purchase their farms.One of the most successful agents was the Beresford family. He managed a few of the H.I.S. estates. On Bill McAfree’s site he has an in depth article on who managed the estates and who the agents were as well as the rents. I sent you a copy.
Beresford’s, Tristam (agent) and Randall Controlled the estate: (Haberdasher’s (Manor of Freemore). James Corscaden was connected by marriage. Corscaden’s daughter married Sir Robert Maxwell. Early on Sir Robert McClelland leased the estate and later the Marquis of Waterford the estate ranged over various parts of Ireland. Sir Robert McClelland from Scotland had a Ballycastle at Aghanloo and John Cooke of the shipping co leased property in 5 townlands. (One our names we looked up from J.S. came from Aghanloo. I think the J.S. passengers came off these estate’s)
Ironmonger’s (Manor Of Lizard) in 1842 12,686 acres. in 1614 George Canning was an agent at Castleagivey. Beresfords ran the estate. Paul Canning also leased the estate and others. Corscaden’s son’s middle name was Canning. Wyndam Passage act allowed tenants to purchase their farms in 1903.
Mercer’s (Manor Of mercer’s 1740 they talked about the effects of emigration on their estate. Leased by: Wilson, Hill, Marquess of Londonderry and Viscount Castlereagh. Wyndam Passage act 1903 allowed these tenants to purchased their land in 1903.
Merchant Taylors (Manor of St John Baptist): Michael Beresford agent. There are a few trees on ancestry I linked to that are doing the Beresford genealogy). Maybe they ended up in St John’s New Brunswick, canada one of the H.I.S. Colonies?
Draper’s (Manor Of Drapers): In Moneymore and Draperstown. Tenants bought farms in 1903 as result of the Wyndam Land Purchase Act.
Fishmonger’s (Manor Of Walworth): Also managed by Hamilton, Beresford families. Barre Beresford made improvements. Co. of Fishmongers repossessed the estate in 1820. The portion of the estate in Ballykelly also was improved. Agents: Sampson and Gage. Tenants bought their farms in 1903 by the Wyndam Land Purchase Act.
Goldsmith’s (Manor Of Goldsmith’s Hall): 1850 the estate was sold in the Encumbered Estate’s Court. The Alexander’s John and Alexander had this estate heavy in debt.
Manor of Grocer’s (Grocer’s) 1805 David Babington was Lawyer and agent tried to lease it but failed to get control of the land in 1822. The land was improved in Muff later renamed Elington. The rents were decreased 20-25%. In 1838 it was the best managed estates of the H.I.S. The Templemoyle Agricultural School now is on the property. In 1870 they tried to dispose of the land. In 20th century the farmers own their land and pay a fixed annuity yearly to the Land Commission instead of rent. I think Corscaden is associated w/ this estate. He came from Muff and he and his father were grocer’s / distiller’s).
Clothworker’s (Manor Of Clothworker’s: Agent Nicholas Elcock. Sir Robert McClelland in 1618 held the lease 51 years from the Clothworker’s. (I think R. McClelland is our Robert McClelland from this (estate and Haberdasher’s estate.) The estate was in Articlave. It bordered the Habadasher’s estate in Artikelly. McClelland brought people over from his Scotland estates to settle here. Early 1800′s the Jackson family had the estate. (This estate is near Antrim (President Andrew Jackson and the McQuillin family are supposed to be connected and from this area perhaps this is where they came from.) In 1840 surveyed and improved the land. in 1871 Sir Hervey Bruce and later Sir Fredrick Hervey, Bishop of Derry had this estate. The estate is part of the Downhill Estate. You can see photos of it on line. I think I also sent a photo. You can visit the estate. I have seen postcards of this estate.
Waxwing
March 22, 2013 at 3:54 pm
Toast for John Ruddy
As possibly the only Gaelic speaker at Duffy’s Cut.
Don’t be misled by the singer, Liam Devally. As well as being a powerful singer and connoisseur of Guinness, he was a well-known compere and TV presenter. A barrister in his day job, as well as being a judge and preserver of orderly society, his choice of song is interesting. An Poc Ar Buile (The Mad Puck Goat) is a rebel song in disguise that praises a mad, ferocious goat for tearing the lining from the backside of a village constable’s trousers.
Waxwing
March 22, 2013 at 5:19 pm
An alternative version of An Poc ar Buile for Slow Learners!
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 6:04 pm
ROFL!!
Mary Cornell
March 21, 2013 at 4:31 pm
I agree Eileen that we have amassed a lot of new info and we need to narrow down our focus to the information that pertains to the John Stamp or the other ships. We should probably take a good look at what we have and set aside the items that may be supposition or assumption on our part. At least until we can prove them true.
What we do have is a fairly good idea of how things worked in Londonderry. Everything that came and went into the city was completely controlled by the ‘corporation’. Shades of George Orwell? More questions than answers when it comes to the summer of 32. The article on the emigration from Derry said three things that stick out in my mind- most of those who made the voyage could afford to pay and those who could not were sent money from relatives already in America. And the poorest usually could only afford passage to England. Begs the question, how did our dirt poor laborers afford passage. Duffy? He does not seem the type to outlay any of his own money to pay for 27+ fares.
BTW. I remember reading in the article Don sent on whiskey that it only takes three ingredients to distill whiskey or rock gut alcohol….corn mash, sugar and water. At least two of our gentlemen could have made a great deal of money in the poteen trade.
Waxwing
March 22, 2013 at 9:12 am
What I struggle with at times is knowing when to put the focus on analytical (deductive) thinking rather than upon divergent or creative (inductive) thinking. Sometimes inductive thinking or reasoning (otherwise perhaps known by de Bono as lateral thinking), or perhaps known as hunches or gut reactions, can lead one down surprising new paths or on the other hand down blind alleys.
On the other hand, other people such as Karl Popper would say that it is only through lateral thinking, or paradigm shifts, that changes in direction in new learning can come about. I think Eileen has a particular strength in lateral thinking which is why I just stand back and look to see what she comes up with.
This material on HIS could be a complete red herring or she could have struck gold. I have no idea which. Trying to encourage my inductive side to come out, my gut reaction for the moment is to be intrigued but sceptical. Some questions that spring to mind are:
What could the interface look like between the HIS and ordinary populace that fell for the dirty tricks that are being implied here.
Yes, the HIS could have had Derry wrapped up, and that was the plan after all, but who was complicit who were not part of the inner circle, who were agents, and were the ordinary populace putty in their hands?
Did they ever, as a supposedly charitable but secret organisation (at least the Freemason side), ever have crises of conscience when they saw the fruits of their labour – mass emigration and starvation?
What, if any, was the relationship between the HIS/Freemasons and the Orange Order?
Why were the Derry shipowners insuring their own ships instead of doing it through Lloyds, the customary ship insurer?
What, if the key people in HIS were into shipping and had such links with PA, is the reason why ships to PA out of Derry were so sporadic:
1828 – one (Asia)
1832 – five (John Stamp, Asia, Prudence – owner Joseph Kelso; Ontario; Vernon – owners Smith and Titcomb, Kennebunk)
1833 – none
1834 – eleven
1835 – none
Thereafter, they petered out. Did the HIS get wind of Duffy’s Cut or were their ships all wrecked by then?
That is just for starters. I still have to get round to completing the Excel spreadsheet (an analytical task) but I am starting to think Eileen’s approach might be a better one. Maybe the two approaches can join up in the middle, we’ll see. In the meantime, Eileen, more power to your elbow!
Eileen Breen
March 23, 2013 at 12:28 pm
In June 1835 the John Stamp sailed from Derry to St Johns and R McClelland was the cosignatory. The ship came out of London. There were about thirty ships that sailed from Derry to Philadelphia in the 1840s. The name duPont was on McKendrick’s payment. C.J. duPont collected the money from the agent in Philadelphia, Robert Taylor. I think there’s more to the duPont’s than the cannonball munitions being shipped from Derry to Philadelphia that their letters to McCorkell show. There are a lot of emigration letters from duPont on that site and I think we need to check the letters and payments for passage against the John Stamp manifest. Maybe duPont had his own fleet of emigration ships, although I didn’t see his name as a shipper on the 1839, 1852 directories. I think there is more to this story.
Waxwing
March 23, 2013 at 10:21 am
In keeping with Vic’s Azimuth, I had collated all the themes of Duffy’s Cut on January 9th in the Archives page and labelled them Duffys Cut Protocol #1-#15. I have to update this with the more recent HIS/Freemasonry/Orange themes which I will do. A look at these items as itemised should give some clues as to which are connected and suggest how they could be prioritised for further research. You will immediately see that there is more than enough material there already for a book. I may draft a skeleton outline next week.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Thanks for the tip!
1848 Tithe Applottment
Clooney, Clondermot, East Ward, Parish Of templemore (Londonderry). Business: Cary McClelland – I think R. McClelland is a typo. It’s C. McClelland (Cosignitory John Stamp). He and two family members are also in H.I.S. Minutes. Property is listed as: store, offices and yard. The Lessor was John Mehan H.I.S. Nearby to this property is Distillery Rd, Coleraine Railroad and another neighbor selling grain.
James Corscaden sold grain and his father and cousins (Youngs and Watts also were distillers, grocers and spirit dealers). The grain was shipped on Coleraine Railroad to the distillery for making alcohol for their business. Young(John Stamp) and Watts (Creole) were masters and cousins of James Corscaden on the two ships. James Corscaden was from Muff and there was a Joseph McClelland in Muff (Grocer) but not sure if he was related.
I put the 1848 Tithe record under Cary McClelland in the John Stamp tree and I’m thinking we should start a tree for Known Associates:J.S.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 9:51 pm
Maybe they’re making the Poteen!
Patrick
March 21, 2013 at 12:50 am
Re Poteen it seems that the Meedens of Muff were infamous for making Poteen, second only to Glenagannon in Donagh(Carndonagh)
Waxwing
March 21, 2013 at 7:40 am
Maybe the little smiley face has had his fill of poitin?
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 12:47 am
The 1852 Provincial Directory lists the Government of Londonderry. The syndicate lists the fifty Livery Companies that made up the Honourable Irish Society. (Police, insurance, shipping, municipal government, courts and ecclesiastical commoners representing the church) and the hierarchy.
If should be possible from the 1852 directory to try to find out what for each livery company what each person’s occupation was. Sometimes the people came from towns around Londonderry. Do you guys want to work on a Honorable Irish Society Family Tree instead of known associates?
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 1:05 am
One name popped out for the Ironmongers Estate – Canning – which was the middle name of one of the McCorkells.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 3:16 am
Oops! Canning was James Corscaden’s son’s middle name. I don’t think any one living in Londonderry in 1800′s was not related to the members of the H.I.S. They were a self-sustaining city. The Ironmonger’s estate was the Seckham family which married James Corscaden’s eldest son William.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 3:23 am
When the Plantation occurred, each of the fifty livery companies were asked by the King to invest in land and each Company had it’s own estate. To keep their estates they all married into one another’s family, including Corscaden. The estates are still being handed down. In some cases the land was divided for tenant farms. This is interesting and it is getting really complicated. We need to talk about our focus and what everyone would like to research.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 3:39 am
Patrick: were any of your relatives members of the Honorable Irish Society/London Companies/Londonderry Government/Corporation: I’m thinking that the John Stamp was owned by the Honorable Irish Society (they held the loan) and that they recruited their family members from the surrounding countryside of Derry, Donegal and Tyrone where they held lands, possibly their tenant farmers or those living on their lands, to go to Philadelphia where they had regular established trade routes.
They also had funded three Virginia Colonies in the 1600s including Jamestown. They also used these ships to transport their commodities made in Londonderry and surrounding towns to Boston and Philadelphia. Their connection to Philadelphia was that duPont, McCorkle, Corscaden all regularly transported their goods there. duPont lived on Pine St, near Philip Duffy and Blockly Hospital and the Sisters of Charity also worked at this hospital.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 3:10 am
The 1839 Londonderry Directory was organized by trades.
Corscaden: US Consul, ship owner, window and glass importer.
Hugh Corscaden 1830 Tithe: Clooney, Donegal
James Corscaden; Gortaward, Donegal
I saw the name Bersford on the estates of the Honorable Irish Society. Isabel Witherington Seckham married James Corscaden’s son William. She is part of this estate. That listing of the estates goes back to the Plantation in the H.I.S.
James Mehan, who was the lessor for James Corscaden in Clooney in the 1839 New Directory City of londonderry owned: Clooney Mills, was a Brewer. Corscaden was the grain dealer and Mehan (Ecclesiastical Commoner, H.I.S.) made the alcohol.
Anthony and Margaret Doak, Society St, Millners. Perhaps the H.I.S. recruited relatives of the H.I.S. to go to Philadelphia as the H.I.S. had business in both places and regularly went to Philadelphia. A lot of last names that are on the manifest for the John Stamp are also on this directory and 1852 directory. Maybe they cut the relatives a good deal!
Ewing, the Mayor in 1852, was a card maker (Also a H.I.S. co) for wool and tow.
John Munn, ship owner and part of the ones that bought Marcus Hill, was a grain merchant and flax spinner.
Sam Baird, also part of the group, was a grocer.
Rebecca Watt (cousin?) Corscaden was a millner in Butcher Street.
John Cooke, ship owner and Timber merchant in 1852 with brother Joseph, was an iron founder of John Cooke and Co. and also a Copper and Tin Smith (without his brother). who also bought Marcus Hill.
James McCrea Law on Foyle Street (part of the syndicate) “Corporation” bought Marcus Hill.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 4:33 am
The H.I.S. had several Assurance Companies which was their pledge and loyalty to the crown. The Stamp Act of 1694, 1712, 1765 showed loyalty to the King. It met with public outcry in England and America, “No taxation without representation”.
England tried to rule as an absentee landlord, taking the English colony in America but they all signed their assurance to the king. In England and Ireland those that needed paperwork to be presented in the courts, newspapers and playing cards were required to pay a tax. Once the tax was paid, the paperwork, newspaper and playing cards were made legal. Newspapers, playing cards and paperwork (lawyers/ merchants/ traders) were all in the livery companies.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 2:06 pm
Mary: Thanks for all the great articles! The Ordnance Survey and why people immigrated from Derry was very insightful. I’m glad the H.I.S. didn’t get involved in paying the passage to get people off their land. The South East was the poorest community but it also seemed most reluctant to give up their ancient way of life. The North was better off financially and it seemed to want to improve lives but people left even though improvements were being made on the land.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm
I read the H.I.S. were Masons. There’s a lot of numerology and symbolism. I think they have seven basic principles. They designed Londonderry to be a symbol of London. The Guildhall is the symbol of the Masons: A setting sun with seven rays coming from it representing the seven principles. There are seven gates radiating from the Wall Of Derry that they built with seven streets. Each street houses all fifty Livery Companies. the Livery Companies drew a lot during the Plantation to which estates they would receive. Each of the fifty estates represents a livery company.
The main goals of the H.I.S. was to live by the code or seven principles of the Masons. One of them is benevolence. They aided children’s charities, the poor and built schools and charities. The Ecclesiastical Commoners may represent the Anglican Church but also the Masons. You said the McCorkells were probably not members of the church but they could have been Masons. duPont is a name that sticks out from the rest and it. doesn’t seem to fit in but he may have been a Mason. The H.I.S. worked with the Hibernians, perhaps this was part of their charity work. Perhaps Duffy, duPont, McCorkle and Corscaden met in Philadelphia through the Masons. They may have also been Hibernians and there was a local chapter in Philadelphia.
They heard about Duffy’s Cut and they vowed to remember them. The symbol on Londonderry’s crest is a skeleton. The secret society that most of the U.S. Presidents belonged to was the Bones Club, a secret society from Yale University. Many US Presidents went to Yale. The main goal of the H.I.S. was to colonize and create a self-sustaining city in the image of the Masons and the H.I.S. and London. They colonized Jamestown, VA, and two other VA colonies, Boston, MA, Philadelphia and St John’s New Brunswick, Canada.
I bet their cities were set up with the capital being the sun and seven streets representing the seven Mason principles. Washington,D.C is also set up this way. The Statue Of Liberty has multiple Mason symbols, our dollar bill also. US has fifty states and H.I.S. has fifty estates. I’m not sure what fifty means to the Masons. The “stamp” is the Assurance of their allegiance of the H.I.S. to the King Of England. The stamp is the legalization of any paperwork to go before the “Corporation” through the court system, thus the King. Once they charged a tax (allegiance/assurance to the King) and the fee was paid the documents became legal in the eyes of the King. Since there is no separation between Church and State the H.I.S. was also equally represented in Church and State matters and I’m assuming the Masons. Need to find evidence to support this.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 8:30 pm
The Honourable Irish Society and the Freemasons:
Three principles that are the foundation of the Freemasons: 1. Brotherly Love (Philadelphia is the City Of Brotherly Love.) Its members show compassion, understanding and respect the opinions of others. 2. Relief: Charity towards others. 3. Truth: They have high Moral Standards.
The seven Principles Of Freemasonry:
The Guild hall is the setting sun and the seven streets radiating from it are a symbol of the Freemasons. Each street represents the seven principles: 1. High Moral code: Decency, Conviction, charity. 2. Charity: Welfare and Happiness. 3. Education 4. Religious not Religion: to have faith is a basic principle of all religions. Religion not discussed. 5. Social responsibility:Truth/Justice, fraternity, philanthropy, orderly and civil, religious and intellectual liberty, loyal to the Government. 6.Non-Political 7. Equality Among Members. From the book: Principles of Freemasons For Dummies.
The Royal Arches
From the Royal Arch Degree: The Boundaries of Freemasonry: a quote from Deuteronomy 19:14 about not moving landmarks set by their ancestors and their heritage of receiving the land that their God gave to them. The landmarks may be the Wall of Londonderry and the land they inherited is the land from the Plantation which the fifty livery companies each have an estate.
Under Home Rule 1898:
The path of order was debated. The RC in Ireland (Hibernians) who wanted Home Rule thus the separation of church and state and the Protestants who were Unionists (Freemasons and H.I.S.) wanted the Anglican Church and Government to rule Ireland and to keep Ireland, Scotland and England under the control of the Crown. The Unionists feared the RC pope and its politics would have its influence over Ireland.
Freemason’s of London, England. Debate In The House Of Commons
The H.I.S. worked with the Hibernians in their charity work. In the debate the Government feared these two groups could be secret and sectarian and they forbade its police force from participating in any secret society except the Freemasons.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 12:10 pm
Just another observation the Honorable Irish Society seems to have used both the bartering system of the clans and the money-based system of the English.
Eileen Breen
March 19, 2013 at 8:22 pm
I didn’t think about that, that they could insure the ships then wreck them. I read another article, not about these men, that the ships going down the Foyle were at risk for piracy. On account the master had to hold the pirate with a gun so he wouldn’t wreck the ship. There was always someone on the shore to pick up the loot.
Eileen Breen
March 19, 2013 at 11:16 pm
I believe that the twelve Great Livery Companies/Honorable Irish Society/London Companies of which our men were members funded the John Stamp. From the 1832 minutes, Robert McClelland and two family members were in the minutes. R. McClelland whom Mary found was a cosignatory.
Also the Grocers were from Muff, including James Corscaden. The Youngs were probably related and all listed in the 1852 Londonderry Provincial Directory. Joseph Young was not not found but the Youngs were e general merchants, grocers and spirit dealers (vintners). John Young, master, was also not found but he may have been related. Also Jamestown and two other settlements were funded by the Honorable Irish Society. It’s the 400th year Anniversary of their society.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 2:04 am
From 1852 Provincial Directory for Londonderry
Cary McClelland: Grain Merchant, Bleacher on Foyle St.
James McClelland Grocer, Oil And Colour Merchant (paint), Diamond.
Matthew McClelland Builder, architect Garnkirk Coal Co., Orchard St.
The three McClellands appeared in the Honorable Irish Society’s minutes. They didn’t hold offices in the town government in 1852. None of these were R. McClelland but maybe he belongs to them.
I was thinking the John Stamp might have been a J. and J. Cooke ship. The Cookes were in the H.I.S. I wonder if John comes from John Cooke and ‘Stamp’ comes from their job. Justice Of the Peace or, if they represented the Salters, they were responsible for Weights and Measures – making sure scales were correct, collecting licences, munitions (duPont had many ships carried munitions to PA). Were the ships duPont used from J. and J. Shipping Lines?
The Honorable Irish Society was the town government for Derry and it represented fifty livery companies. Our syndicate represented the top twelve Liver Companies and the Mayor was Joseph Ewing M.D. HIS had Members of the Court, a Governor, a Deputy Governor, an Immediate Parting Governor, a Recorder, Aldermen (5) and Commoners (18). Aldermen and councillors represented North ward, East ward and South ward; Other offices were under this.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 2:55 am
This is just an observation:
The Honourable Irish Society (Protestant) on orders from London were to build a new city in the North of Ireland and call it London. Later the name was changed to Londonderry after the oak groves that once stood there. They built the wall of Londonderry with seven gates. They paid homage to themselves and they built the Guildhall. It represented the fifty Londonderry Companies called Honorable Irish Society. They were the government and when they needed more space they opened up more office space down the seven streets off the wall. Their homes were in the periphery near the Foyle so they could look at their ships. The Catholics and others lived in surrounding communities such as Donegal and outer County Derry. When the famine came in 1831 a slow trickle of emigration started. By the Great Famine the emigration trail to Londonderry City was a major emigration route to the shipping agents who were building, buying, selling ships, transporting commodities and selling tickets to the New World ships.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 12:18 pm
I was thinking if the Honorable Irish Society was the Government, were they also the Church of Ireland in Londonderry?
Waxwing
March 20, 2013 at 1:38 pm
You could check the Tithe Applotment Records. Also, with such Scots names as McClelland and McCorkell, they were unlikely to be Church of Ireland. That is to say, unless they converted to Church of Ireland to be part of the Establishment.
Waxwing
March 20, 2013 at 7:33 am
I started to get a bit suspicious when on the website on shipwrecks off the Irish coast I went down the list of ships. There were so many of them, at points dotted around the coast not near harbours, and most often there was grain but no passengers on board.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 12:15 pm
It would be interesting to see who owned the ships. Grain was probably a cheap commodity if it had to go down.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 2:31 pm
I have a photo of the sign before her car in the parade and the article if Christine is interested
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 3:17 pm
In the 1600s, of three brothers from the McCorkell family, one went to Philadelphia, PA, one went to Londonderry (The shipping McCorkells) and one they lost sight of. The McCorkells settled and named the towns in PA: Raphoe, Derry, Donegal and others. They considered themselves Irish according to the the article ‘Some Prominent Friends Of Pennsylvania’. They had Donegal roots as well. On the John Stamp ad just above it is an ad for the ship ‘Clansman’. McCorkell Company and a Richard Corscaden are named as James Corscaden and Co.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 9:09 pm
1852 Provincial Directory, the Who’s Who of the McCorkell and Corscaden Associates in County Londonderry: Londonderry, Lisburn, Charlemont and Lurgan.
Barry McCorkell inherited the McCorkell Shipping Line from his father and he owned two ships and J. and J. Shipping Lines and Businessman John Kelso owned five ships. These were passenger ships that used sail. The McCorkells tried to stay current and when J. and J. went out of business they owned eight ships: Village Bell (1863-1888), Lady Emily Peel (1864-67), Stadagona (1863-1875), Minehaha (1860-1895) and the Mohongo (1851-1872).
There was a syndicate of merchant owners who bought the ship Marcus Hill. This led the way for these owners to establish shipping business on their own. J.J. owned five, McCorkell owned two and the associates owned the rest. In the Provincial Directory you can see where they were located on Williams St, Shipquay St, Queen St, Foyle St and Main St. The associates were involved in the shipping business, held government offices, insurance companies for the ships, were of nobility and gentry and were in the spirit dealing, grocery and distillery business.
I think Master Young from the John Stamp was from this family. It said that on the Creole (from another source), the Master was Watt. In Londonderry the Watts were distillers: Watt and Company, Spirit Store, Shipquay St, Distillary, Abby St. I think Watt and Robert Corscaden may be related? Robert Corscaden was James Corscaden’s father. He was a Spirit Dealer on Shipquay St.
I’ll try to make a list of what and who was on Shipquay St later. There was a W. and L. Young that were spirit dealers and grocers on Market Square, also listed in Lisburn under the Traders’ section. There was a Francis Young, a grocer in Charlemont, S. and W. Young who were publicans and grocers on Main St. Young is listed in Lurgan so maybe Robert Corscaden, Watt family and Young family were businessman who were related in some way.
Two McClellands are listed, a James and a Matthew, but I couldn’t find a Robert McClelland. James was a merchant at the Diamond and Matthew was a builder and Architect General Garnkirk Coal Co on Orchard St. More later about the others.
Waxwing
March 18, 2013 at 10:46 pm
Eileen, you are a constant source of amazement to me. I always think I am a tenacious son of a dog but I can’t hold a candle to you! Seriously, you have to give some thought to pursuing historical research in earnest. You are a natural – take some advice from Christine Kinealy and say I sent you!
Mary Cornell
March 18, 2013 at 10:56 pm
I agree Don!!! When Eileen gets going it is best to step back and let her lap us, as we can’t keep up.
I saw where there was a Corscadden who was a grain merchant. He would have been able to make more profit sending his product across the sea.
Eileen Breen
March 19, 2013 at 12:54 pm
You both also find awesome articles and present a lot of great ideas!
When I looked at the 1852 Londonderry Directory I was puzzled why a bunch of ship owners would want a pharmacist. I thought he couldn’t make so much money to buy a ship. Then this theory came to me:
The Syndicate of known associates that bought the ship Marcus Hill all represent one of the top twelve Livery Companies that are in the Honorable Irish Society that comprised land owners and merchants in Derry who donated money for charities? There may have been one member of the group who was the syndicate’s leader, probably the company that was the most successful financially which would have been McCorkell? Many of the associates had offices on Shipquay St, Queen St, Williams St and Strand St – all in the same area (see Ancestry google map).
Some of the top companies were the Mercers which were traders in textiles called Mercery and the John Stamp was transporting raw cotton when it sank in 1839. James Corscaden, if he was the shipping agent, could have been a head of this company.
The Worshipful Company Of Salters promoted the use of salt in the preparation of food and chemicals. The Vintners Company originally setled in Derry in the 1700s to sell wine without a license and they wanted a monopoly to import wine. Corscaden and his father were spirit dealers.The Grocers Company regulated the rarity of spices, setting the weights and measurement to pharmacist (Dr Kelso). Pharmacies also bought saltpetre for medicinal use.
Two other choices perhaps for head of the association could have been duPont, who owned a munitions factory that made cannonballs and that sold saltpetre to local stores in Philadelphia, and who also had a huge fleet of ships transporting gunpowder from Derry to Boston and Philadelphia; or Dr John Kelso who was the surgeon and apothecary.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 11:46 pm
From 1852 Provincial Directory
Associates who purchased the ship, Marcus Hill (the first ship that was made, provisioned and sailed out of Derry in many years), were James Corscaden, Barry McCorkle, James McCrea, Daniel Baird, John Munn, William Buchanan, Joseph Young and Dr John Kelso. Their occupations were ship owners, spirit dealers, grocers, publicans, assurance agents, shipping agents, masters of ships, lawyers, gentlemen, physician, government official, court magistrates and secretary of the library.
These guys had it all figured out!
James Corscadden b. 1808 in Muff, Donegal married ‘Fanny’ Francis Gallagher b Ballyarnet, Donegal near Burtonport, Donegal. They had five sons and two daughters. He was a grain merchant on Shipquay Street after the emigration trade decreased, so he and Barry McCorkell began importing grain. Also known as an associate was Stuart Christie, brother-in-law, who with Munn owned the Royal William. They sold it and purchased the Charlotte Douglas, Creole, Erin and Sarah Sands. The master was a cousin, Captain Thompson.
Also from the 1852 Directory:
The Northern Fire and Life and the Caledonian Life Assurance offices were located on Shipquay Place, Londonderry, the next street over. Also, he was Consul for Foreign Affairs to the U.S. in Londonderry in 1854-56, 1857-8 and 1861-2 and Town Councillor for North Ward, Londonderry. His son Robert married Annette “Minnie” McCorkell (1857-1895) – the family married into the McCorkell family a few times.
Barry McCorkle inherited the McCorkell shipping Line from his father. Of the seven ships he owned, five were lost to shipwreck. Between 1864-1871 there were thirty sailings; between 1863-1874 there were 45 sailings; and there were multiple sailings between 1873-1889. The glory days of the shipping business ended in 1895 with the loss of emigration and the wrecks of five of the seven ships he owned.
McCorkells were also associated with Victor duPont who manufactured Eagle cannon munitions which they shipped regularly to Boston and Philadelphia. Munitions were transported on a number of McCorkell Ships with various masters. The duPont factory in Londonderry had two fires that injured a few workers and nearly destroyed their munitions business. There was also a fire on one of the boats that was carry supplies that spilt on board the ship and almost set the munitions on fire.
On-line there are duPont letters and a book about the duPont family. I sent you all the link to the book. Many members of their business in U.S. helped the duPont family immigrate to U.S. after the two explosions in their munitions factory. They also talked about the ships that would come down their river in Philadelphia. So they may have owned land in Philadelphia and they had an office on Pine St, Philadelphia. Phillip Duffy also lived on Pine St.
J. and J. Shipping was owned by Joseph and John Cooke who were also Timber Merchants in Strand St, Londonderry. They wned five ships during this time but they also had many more – for a listing, go under the Ships of the J. and J. Shipping Line . They were the leading shipping industry until the McCorkell shipping line began. They may have owned some of them with Dr John Kelso who according to the 1852 Provincial Directory of Derry was a surgeon and apothecary. he is listed under the Nobility and Gentry Section of the Directory and he was located in the Market Square section of the city. Dr Kelso was a member of the literary Society and he held the position as Secretary.
J. and J. Shipping Lines had multiple Atlantic Crossings from Londonderry to Philadelphia,U.S., St John’s, New Brunswick, Canada and Louisiana. U.S. records on-line can be found from 1836, 1847-1855. Ships that left Ireland to Philadelphia were Envoy (1849,1850), Superior (1847, 1850, 1853), Sarah Schaffe (1836), Hartford (1847), Heshell (1847), Montpeliar (1847), Alleghany (1847), Mary Stewart 91847), Garland (1848), 1849), Barbara (1850) and multiple other ships. 25 Crossings are listed.
Other Parties were:
James McCrea: General Merchant, Foyle St
Daniel Baird: General Merchant, Ship Owner, Court Magistrate.
John Munn: City Spinning Mills, Queen St, Agent Steam Packets, Londonderry.
William Buchanan: Borough Magistrate, Londonderry.
Charles Young: General merchant, Foyle St
Thomas Young: Coach Factory on Foyle St
Waxwing
March 19, 2013 at 10:07 am
You wonder how these guys had time for any work?
Also, if they had everything so well sewn up it would not have been beyond them to hoover up as many emigrants as they wanted. Shades of my great-grandfather here, Malcom MacNiven – whisky purveyor and emigration agent – but he was an amateur compared to these boys. I particularly liked the Insurance Twist. Insure your own ships then wreck them. Nothing like it!
Waxwing
March 17, 2013 at 7:13 am
From Mary, a look at Irish Social Attitudes
http://mothersofmodernireland.com/
Eileen Breen
March 16, 2013 at 11:33 am
I saw a George Corscaden when I was looking at records. I’ll have to look at it again. In newer records from the 1900s I saw the Corscadens on Shankhill Road in Belfast attached to a name from a family tree. We saw that road on the trip on the way into the center of Belfast when the driver pointed it out. I also saw in thebphone book page several Corscadens in Belfast. Perhaps John Young and R. MacClelland worked for Corscadden and Co., the McCorkell Line or maybe were embers of the Honorable Irish Society.
Eileen Breen
March 16, 2013 at 12:36 pm
I sent all McCorkell family trees from another site, not Ancestry. I wrote to him to see if we can get access to his tree and to see what he knows. Patrick: It’s under Shipping McCorkells if you search the web. I put under James Corscaden’s profile some photos of the McCorkell family. Bartholomew McCorkell was brother-in-law and executor of James Corscaden’s will. I also found photo Fanny Gallagher who was James Corscaden’s wife.
http://shippingmccorkells.tribalpages.com/family-tree/shippingmccorkells/221/193/James-Corscaden-Family
Waxwing
March 16, 2013 at 12:51 pm
I am only half-guessing here but I think that all Corscadens, including Tony Blair, are connected; likewise with the McCorkells. My reason for saying so is that both names are botched up versions of other names that were already rare before being botched up, those being Garscadden (hence Corscaden) – a district in Glasgow that I passed by often, and MacCorquodale (sometimes McCorkindale) that is a Highland name from the West Coast of the Scottish Highlands. It is quite common for Ulster Planter names in Ulster to have been botched up.
Waxwing
March 16, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Some Weird Mc (Mac) Names from Ulster
McAtamney
McAusland
McBrierty
McCammon
McClurg
McConnellogue
McElhatton
McElwee
McFetridge
McGarrigle
McGucken
McIlhagga
McKendrick
McQuiston
Lots more where that came from.
Eileen Breen
March 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm
I put up an advertisement on Ancestry under James Corscaden and a notice from the Belfast Newsletter that the John Stamp arrived and noted that it wrecked. I saw the notice in the Belfast Newsletter but I couldn’t find the ad for the J.S. leaving. Ancestry only put up four pages and I looked through the month of March and I couldn’t find it. The ad came from the Facebook page for Duffy’s Cut. Title Films had found it. If the Belfast Newsletter reporting it I wonder if Corscaden also used the Belfast port. I saw the ship the Erin in Belfast Port – Corscaden has this name as one of his ships – but maybe another shipping line used the name. I didn’t see any of his other ships in the advertisements.
Mary Cornell
March 16, 2013 at 5:09 am
What about Karl Marx? He surely can’t be left out of discussions of a socialist nature. Here are Marx’s view of Ireland in the 1800′s. Contains some interesting figures.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867/12/16.htm
Waxwing
March 16, 2013 at 8:27 am
I thought you were about to say Karl Marx was from Donegal!
Seriously, though, Marx’s paper seems a very astute analysis. In reading it, Ireland comes across to me to be very reminiscent of Romania under the Ceausescu regime, except much worse. He paints the picture, although in the style of crammed notes, much more succinctly than Terence McDonough
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Was_Ireland_a_colony.html?id=e5VnAAAAMAAJ
Eileen Breen
March 15, 2013 at 12:17 pm
In Massachusetts the RC Church in my city and the next two towns own a lot of property. I bet they are one of the largest landowners in the state. So I don’t think the clergy in Donegal buying large amounts of property is anything new. I would like to know what they were doing. In Dungiven there were a lot of church properties and the clans helped fund their priories for a little political clout as with the O’Cahan clan of the Derry area.
Eileen Breen
March 16, 2013 at 3:26 am
In the Corscadden family there were seven children – five sons and two daughters. The first and last sons were Esq. (lawyers?). The first son had 56,000 pounds in probate. His wife has a a fairly large family tree. The person who put up this tree seems to have some high brow pictures although I only found one photo of a distant family member of that family so far. Many of this family lived in England so the Tony Blair theory might not be far off. This family was well versed in Inishowen as the wife was from west coast and he was from east coast of Inishowen just below where Patrick lives. I haven’t heard from anyone I wrote to yet.
Waxwing
March 16, 2013 at 8:25 am
Tony Blair’s mum was Hazel Corscadden from Ballyshannon which is in South West Donegal
http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/blairs-proud-of-ballyshannon-roots-as-councillor-renews-invitation-1-1996086
Eileen Breen
March 13, 2013 at 8:46 pm
Robert MacClellan(d) was a cosignatory of a loan to stock the John Stamp from Londonderry to Quebec. I read it took $3000 to fund the cost of a ship. MacClelland was part of the Harberdashers, one of the twelve London Companies that funded the Plantation Of Ulster. He and his sons were in the Harberdashers and Clothing Manufacturer’s Companies in 1800s. They had a thread and cotton manufacturing company in Banbridge. The Harberdasher’s and Cotton Manufacturer’s are still in existence. I wrote to them to see if they know anything but I haven’t heard yet or if we have the correct person. As Mary said his name was on several ships: Barque John Stamp, Brig John, Victoria, England and Jupiter. The Master was John Young who probably received fifty acres of land in Philadelphia for each head brought to Philadelphia. After he collected a sizable sum he sold the land for money then was off to his new adventure and the passengers were off serving 7-14 years as an indentured servant. Although 1832 was late for the period Indentured Service still may have existed. Philadelphia was first to abandon it for the paid workers and looked to the fresh new class of workers from Europe that funded their own passage to North America. Or families in America sent money to Ireland to help fund the passage. If we can find John Young as land owner in Philadelphia or surrounding farmland that would be a good find. I would like to find the agent and the ship owner of the John Stamp. I also would like to find which London Companies owned land in Derry and Donegal and maybe match them to cosignatories on the ships leaving the Derry Port to Philadelphia or elsewhere.
Eileen Breen
March 14, 2013 at 7:31 pm
The John Stamp, a 401 ton Newcastle barque was according to the Watson’s book owned by James Corscaden and Company. Passengers wanting passage on thebJ.S. were asked to apply to him between April 7- April 13, 1832 at 26 Shipquay St, Londonderry, Ireland.
Shipquay St. is near Guild Hall where all offices representing the trades and the London Companies were to be found. Corscadden was as a shipping agent who owned several ships himself. He married into the McCorkell family of the McCorkell Line that ran from Ireland to Englandnwho were major ship owners. He had several joint ventures with J and J Cooke and John Munn, ship owners. On 2/21/ 1834 he was U.S. Consul under U.S. President Jackson. In 1850 and 1854 he was a appointed as consular agent.
Eileen Breen
March 14, 2013 at 9:32 pm
Patrick
I emailed a Mary Herbert, a relative of the shipping agent James Corscaden, for more information. Corscadden owned ships, Creole, Fanny, Royal William, Charlotte Douglas, Erin and Sarah Sands.
I also put up a profile for him on Ancestry.com. I found several entries for him under Griffiths Valuation – for Templemore, James St and Queen St. He was a lessor for a William Doherty on Williams St. and owned several properties and businesses in the Shipquay St area.
The J.S. master was John Young. On the ship Crole, Barry McCorkell was the Principal. We have R. McClellan as the Co-signatory. Maybe the McCorkells of the McCorkell Line were also a co-signatory or principal to the John Stamp. Corscadden and McCorkell were connected by marriage and business.
I found a passenger record for Corscadden to Philadelphia in 1850s. Also near the entries to Corscadden’s company the McCorkell business were listed as multiple entries. The Honorable Irish Society (Londonderry Company of the Plantation Of Ulster) were also listed as lessors to other businesses near Corscaden and McCorkell properties.
Eileen Breen
March 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm
We have our Donegal connection. James Corscaden, ship owner, merchant and shipping agent, connected to the McCorkells was born in Muff, Donegal. Five families researched the name plus large family tree on another site. He owned 156 acres in Ballyarnet, Muff, Donegal in 1876. His wife was also from Donegal and they were married there. There is a photo of house where the eldest son lived but I think the house may have been in England.
Waxwing
March 14, 2013 at 10:43 pm
Excellent work, Eileen, keep digging!
Patrick
March 15, 2013 at 1:17 am
In Griffiths Valuation there is a Robert McClelland who owns a little land in Donagh parish. At a later point there is a Rev Thomas McClelland who owned land in the parish of Muff. I would not like to say Robert is the same one as that of 1832 but it may be worth looking into. I don’t know any more about Rev Thomas but being in the same parish as the Corscaddens he may be related to them in some way or another.
Waxwing
March 15, 2013 at 7:39 am
Sticking with the Laggan and Inishowen, the more substantial landowners there who could have conspired to evacuate tenants were:
The Alexanders
Baptist Barton
Thomas Batt
The Careys (Cary)
Church Temporalities
Thomas Colquhoun
Endowed Schools
Marquess of Conyngham
Rev Delap
The Dixons
Richard Doherty
William Fenwick
Samuel Gililland
The Hamiltons
The Hartes (Harts)
The Harveys
Lord George Hill
JK Humphries
The Johnstons
The Earl of Leitrim
The Leslies
Viscount Lifford
Rev McClelland
The McDevitts
The McSheffreys
The Musgraves
Thomas Norman
Robert Stevenson
The Stewarts
William Style
George Young
It would not surprise me if these hoi-pollois did the rounds of each other’s houses and castles. They certainly would not mix with riff-raff. Over the dinner table, a main piece of conversation would be how to squeeze more out of tenants and how best to get rid of any troublesome ones who could not keep up with rent. “What would you do, Earl of Leitrim?”
Then you would get the other lot, posing as do-gooders, funnelling people in droves to the poorhouses. What were the clergy and the headteachers doing by owning large chunks of Donegal? The whole thing stinks!
Waxwing
March 15, 2013 at 9:00 am
Conynghams of Donegal
Dr. William Conyngham, Bishop of Argyle, Scotland, of the family of the Earls of Glencairn In 1616 had a letter of denization for Ireland and he was the first Protestant minister of Inver and Kellymard, Co Donegal. He succeeded to the Deanery of Raphoe in 1630 and settled at Mount Charles. Part of his estate was held by lease from the Earl of Annandale.
King Charles I gave Conyngham 320 acres of land in Dromlogheran, Corcama and Portlagh which then came to be called the Manor of Rosse Conyngham. Part of his estate he acquired by marriage to Marian Murray, daughter of John Murray of Wigtownshire in Scotland who owned all of Boylagh and Banagh, County Donegal.
Alexander Conyngham, Dean of Raphoe, is credited by Burke with having had 27 sons and dausghters, four of these sons reaching adulthood. By 1721 the lands were in possession of Captain David Conyngham of Ballyherrin and Letterkenny, County Donegal, son of Alexander Conyngham of Rosguil. Alexander Conyngham of Rosguil, County Donegal, had among his 10 children
1. Rev. William Conyngham, Rector of Letterkenny, co Donegal, d. 1782.
2. Capt. David Conyngham of Ballyherrin and Letterkenny, original member and founder of the shipping house of Conyngham and Nesbitt of Philadelphia.
3. Adam Conyngham of Cranford, d. 1729,
4. Gustavus Conyngham of Rosguil, father of Capt Gustavus Conyngham, American Royal Navy.
In 1740, Redmond Conyngham came to Philadelphia where he was a shipping merchant and by 1748 he was in business with Theophilus Gardner. Among the apprentices who entered Mr. Conyngham’s counting room, were John Maxwell Nesbitt, his partner, and his brothers Alexander and Jonathan Nesbitt, all connected with his own family in Ireland.
Walter Stewart, another kinsman, apprenticed to him in 1772, later became distinguished as Colonel in the Pennsylvania Line, brevet Brigadier General 1783, and Major General, Pennsylvania Militia 1794. Gustavus Conyngham, his first cousin, the son of his uncle Gustavus, came to Philadelphia 1763, and his exploits as Captain in the U. S. Navy 1775-1783 are well known.
In 1746 the Conynghams registered their first ship “Hamilton Galley,” 100 tons, built in Philadelphia, owned by himself and William Hamilton of Londonderry, Ireland, to whom she was consigned.
13 Apr 1748 the next ship reg was the “Prince William” of 90 tons, owned by himself and Messrs. Gamble and William Hamilton, Londonderry.
21 Nov 1750 the ship “Culloden,” 100 tons, owned by Conyngham & Gardner and the consignees, Alexander and Francis Knox, Londonderry.
1750-51 “Isabella,” 60 tons, by Conyngham & Gardner.
1752 “Alexander,” 70 tons, by Conyngham and Alex. Knox, Londonderry.
1756 “Hayfield,” 100 tons, by Conyngham and J. M. Nesbitt.
1759 “Hannah,” 55 tons, by “Conyngham & Nesbitt.
1760 brigantine “Polly,” a prize taken by the Privateer, “Polly’s Revenge,” sailed under Conyngham and Nesbitt.
14 Dec 1761 “New Culloden,” 150 tons, by Conyngham and Nesbitt and John and Robert Knox of Londonderry; the brig “Hayfield,” 80 tons, mainly by Conyngham and Nesbitt
1765 The ship “Rainbow,” 100 tons, mainly by Conyngham and Nesbitt; Oct 1765 ship”Hayfield,” 80 tons, Oct 1765 ship “John and Mary,” 100 tons.
These vessels, all but two built in Philadelphia, formed part of the shipping fleet of the house from 1746 to 1766, when Conyngham sailed in the “Hayfield” for Ireland. “Charming Peggy,” which, in 1775, Captain Gustavus Conyngham commanded, and in which Mr. D. H. Conyngham sailed to Ireland, was doubtless the Privateer of that name commissioned as a Letter of Marque December 5, 1758.
in 1776 the Council of Safety granted a commission to Thomas Bell, commander of the ship “Speedwell,” navigated by 25 men, 10 carriage guns, owned by John Maxwell Nesbitt & Co. “Nesbitt,” the “Shillalah,” and the “Renette,” may have been other ships owned by Conyngham.
Mr Conynghams’s house in Philadelphia was peculiarly beautiful; it had stone steps, descending into the Dock Creek. In 1765 Mr. Conyngham was a signer of the Non-Importation Agreement, as a protest against the Stamp Act by the Philadelphia merchants. Mr. Conyngham died possessed of a large landed estate both in Ireland and Pennsylvania, entailed on his son David Hayfield Conyngham, with reversion,should the law of attainder debar the latter, to his grandson David Ross, on assuming the Conyngham name. However, David Ross died before the grandfather.
The attainder was removed through the influence of Lord *Plunket, and the estate was enjoyed by D. H. Conyngham until the entail was broken by him. His will names among others the Irish estates of the Ballyboes of Scott Glencairn and Windy Hall,Auchallatty, Gortnabrade and Largyreagh.
Waxwing
March 15, 2013 at 9:47 am
The point of that lengthy history of the Conynghams is to illustrate, amongst other things:
The strong links between Donegal and Pennsylvania
The role of Donegal men in the American War of Independence.
The extent of entrepeneurship, shipping development and slave-trading (otherwise known as indenturing), all orchestrated by Donegal men.
The implication of the clergy in all of this empire building.
A suggestion of buccaneering in the middle of all of this.
The mortality rate for children even amongst the rich.
The schizoid relationship between Ulster Planters and Native Irish.
There are various other insights which can also be gleaned from this snapshot of a notable Donegal family.
Oops, I think my Socialist slip is showing!
Waxwing
March 15, 2013 at 5:19 pm
Quote from Lord George Hill, Owner of Gweedore
“The Irish people have profited much by the Famine, the lesson was severe; but so were they rooted in old prejudices and old ways, that no teacher could have induced them to make the changes which this Visitation of Divine Providence has brought about, both in their habits of life and in their mode of agriculture.”
Eileen Breen
March 16, 2013 at 5:52 am
Robert Corscadden b abt 1790 (James’ father) also was a merchant, grocer and spirit dealer on Shipquay St. When James who married into the McCorkell family died his probate was 912 pounds. The family became wealthier as time went on. Two of James’ sons were lawyers and gentlemen. Another family member married Annette “Minnie” McCorkell. Two of the women in the family also married well. On Ancestry, I put up a few photos of Shipquay St, very close to number 26 Shipquay St where passengers of the John Stamp went to purchase their tickets for the voyage. Also a photo of Shipquay Gate and the Guildhall. James Corscadden Sr b 1808 lost a grandson in World War I in France in 1917.
Eileen Breen
March 13, 2013 at 12:41 pm
In Pennsylvania indentured servitude lasted until 1829. Possibly a few years after this. Ship owners and agents made an agreement. If the agent could persuade someone to take the voyage he got a fee for selling someone into white slavery. People would go on the ships and coerced people into making such an agreement. They would go to the Justice Of The Peace to make the contract legal. The ship’s master would receive 50 acres of land. The master would save the certificates until he had a sizable number of acres. He would then sell the land at a profit.
Waxwing
March 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Also from Eileen
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Inishowen/
http://www.donegalcoco.ie/NR/rdonlyres/5481D609-5702-4DCD-BDEB-250E1BA5B8D9/0/ArchiveCollectionTeachersGuide.pdf
There were certain conditions that were applied to assess how distressed or needy a family was to qualify for State Relief and admission to a Poorhouse. The highly eccentric Dr Whatley, Archbishop of Dublin (mentioned extensively on this website in earlier posts) was in charge of the Poor Law Commission so what chance did the inmates have?
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Ireland/
Waxwing
March 12, 2013 at 8:29 am
The McCorkell line was the best known and was local to Derry.
http://www.mccorkellline.com/ships.htm
There was also J&J Cooke but I think they came a bit later.
I don’t think either of these companies owned any of our four ships.
Many of the ships came from Liverpool and stopped off in Derry en route, others may have been chartered.
http://liverpolitan.im/main/ships/ships_j.htm
The John Stamp. as far as I can see, foundered off the County Down coast in 1939 while carrying cotton from Bombay to Liverpool
http://www.irishwrecksonline.net/Lists/DownSouthListC.htm
Eileen Breen
March 12, 2013 at 8:47 pm
Mary found a name, Robert MacClellan, who owned the John Stamp in 1835 that sailed from Derry to Quebec from 25 April – 17 June 1835. Ship master was John Young who also mastered J.S. June 1832 to Philadelphia from Derry. MacClellan also owned the barque Jupiter that sailed Apr 9- May 15 1835 from Liverpool; Brig John that sailed 26 April- 19 June 1835 from Dublin: and the Victoria and England. In 1832, 455 vessels arrived in Quebec from Derry, carrying 28,016 passengers.
The Derry merchants in Derry Port became owners of the shipping lines and steamships but Robert MacClellan was not on the list. The Derry merchants also positioned themselves close to rail lines in Strabane and Enniskillin. The major landowners involved in trade of commodities in the Derry/ Donegal area in the 1830s were Marquis Of Abercorn and London Fishmongers Co. John Adair (Derryveagh) was one of the first six people to own a car in Donegal and he listed the reason for its use was for trade.
Innishowen didn’t receive a rail line until 1888 but the Derry area had a few rail lines: the Coleraine Line and the Enniskillin Line. Some of the steamship owners, import merchants and distillers who promoted the Enniskillin Line were shareholders in the Londonderry / Coleraine Company. Anther name involved in trade was the North West Steam Packet Company. The Corporation managed the city of Derry.
The use of steam by the railroads and shipping companies made transportation of people, cattle, produce and goods an inexpensive way to get commodities to the market and facilitated emigration to US, Australia, England, Scotland and Canada.
Eileen Breen
March 11, 2013 at 1:49 am
27 July 1829: Ship: Dumfries. Joseph Harvey Of Baltimore, Master. Ship owned : Thomas Adair and John Adair Owners. (Is this Glenveagh Clearances: John Adair?) 126 passengers. Londonderry to Philadelphia.
13 July 1830 Ship: Asia. Willard, Master of Londonderry. To Philadelphia
26 June 1830 Brig Symmetry. Alexander Dall of Londonderry for Philadelphia. Listed crew, many were from Derry. 190 passengers. Listed many towns where the passengers were from. Many from Derry, Donegal, Omagh. I have the list of the towns : over 30 listed
7 Aug 1830. Ship: Eagle. Henry B. Rose, Master. of Alexandria, from Derry to Philadelphia. Owed by Walter Smith, Georgetown, D.C. and H.B. Rose (Master / owner). 1/3 page listed: mechanics, farmers, laborers.
13 July 1830. Ship: Minstrel Boy. John Whelan, Master from Derry to Philadelphia.
4 Aug 1830 Ship: Haleyon. William Patterson, Master. from Derry to Philadelphia. Owners hard to read: Bryan Janes?, K, Lan?, Lee Daser?. Lists laborers and 2 citizens of US.
13 June 1828 Ship: Wyoming. Joseph Coulon, Master, from Derry. Owned by John Welsh of Philadelphia. From Derry to Philadelphia.
I was thinking these are some of the ships 1828-1830 (June-Aug). Perhaps Phillip Duffy’s housemates on the 1830 census came from one of these ships. Also it would be interesting to see if the ships and owners ring a bell with landlords in Donegal as Patrick suggested. I found a list of Donegal landowners but it only gives townland and how many acres. The Symmetry was the only one that listed the townlands. The Eagle had one full page each of mechanics, laborers and farmers. I’ll check out if there were any ships for 1831-34.
Patrick, I don’t know if you’re interested but on Ancestry we have the passengers from the four ships in 1832 put up as a family tree. If you want to be a contributor you can give Don your email and he can send you the link and make you a contributor to the site. John Ruddy is on the John Stamp family tree.
Londonderry
March 10, 2013 at 12:43 pm
I agree that their ‘certainty’ smells. After reading the book, I think the Watsons have fallen victim to the feeling of power from the attention and control of the project. I felt the proofs used circular logic, often using newspapers whose authors were searching for a story, RR docs conveniently available or lost and the need to publish…..arrrgh… a big malady in the academic world, especially from a small college Prof.
This thing grew like a piece of tough meat from the publicity. As for the proof (I say in jest) I recall that when you told me after reviewing my drafts for my chapter that “when you say ‘I believe’ it doesn’t get by the publishers, hence you must be certain and make a declarative more factual statement”. It appears to me that the Watsons took a subject nearby that no one was especially following and made hay out of it albeit with weak research. Now they are international and want to control it!
Waxwing
March 10, 2013 at 1:00 pm
Hi Vic
If my memory serves me right, I can’t take credit for correcting the ‘I believe’ statement. I think that was passed on second-hand by me from Prof Christine Kinealy whom I enlisted as an associate editor. Nonetheless, the point is well made. I would like to say that Drew University in Madison NJ where she is a full professor is a cut above Immaculata. Neither is in the league of top-ranked Universities in North America.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking/region/north-america
However, Drew University’s ranking in the 2013 edition of Best National Liberal Arts Colleges is 100th whereas Immaculata University’s ranking is in Tier 2. The subscription to Drew per annum is over $100 million; that to Immaculata is one-tenth of Drew’s.
So that just leaves how do they compare as Professors as rated by their students.
Bill Watson
Bill gets an overall rating of 3.9 out of five which isn’t bad but he gets no marks for hotness!
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=244287
One remark for him goes:
“This teacher is a mess. His lectures are boring and unorganized. I had such an interest in this subject prior to the class and I feel I learned nothing”.
That remark is untypical as most feedback is positive and other descriptions of him are, “nutty, crazy, hilarious, easy, confused, amazing, brilliant, funny, painless, helpful, eccentric, amazing, compulsive, unsure, captivating, maniacal”. With all that, how did he lose out on hotness!
Overall, the impression of Bill Watson seems to be that he is the archetypal Nutty (but endearing) Professor.
Christine Kinealy
Christine gets an overall rating of 4.9 out of 5 and she also gets no marks or hotness:
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1175189
One comment goes “Incomparable professor…she is the best I have ever, ever experienced in all my undergraduate and graduate years! She is so knowledgeable, approachable, and encouraging. Her enthusiasm for Irish history is contagious. My academic life has been enhanced in such a positive way due to her high standards and exceptional teaching style”.
Descriptions of her include,’humorous, empathic,knowledgeable, engaging”.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 1:04 am
Christine Kinealy was our 2013 Ambassador Award Winner for our St Patrick’s Day parade. She also got a nice article in our local paper about her accomplishments. She’s going to be a professor at Quinnipiac College in CT. They have the first Famine Memorial in the U.S. and the largest library on Irish history in the U.S.
Waxwing
March 18, 2013 at 7:46 am
Well done, Christine! I must congratulate her once I know what’s happening with ‘The Sea is Wide’. I’ll leave it till then as otherwise she will be asking. Incidentally, I wasn’t that impressed with her chapter as I know she can write much better.
Quinnipiac University statistics where Christine went make interesting reading.
The student intake of 2011 (similar to that of 2013) was 5,500 of 12,000 applicants (47%). Two-thirds of the intake were female and ninety per cent of them were in the top half of their high school class; half ranked in the top quarter; a quarter ranked in the top tenth. Most students hailed from the American Northeast: New York (29%), Connecticut (21%), New Jersey (19%), and Massachusetts (18%). Three quarters received financial aid and over ninety per cent were white.
Go figure!
Eileen Breen
March 10, 2013 at 12:33 pm
We need to keep trying to figure this out. It’s what floats our boat and keeps us calm! If we sit by and do nothing the Team in PA will move onto the six other sites where the Irish were wronged and do the same thing. I agree it’s a lot of publicity. Dr Monge doesn’t seem to get in on it. She seems to like her research. She did do the talk on Duffy’s Cut but she seemed to direct it more to her students. She seems more credible than the others.
Eileen Breen
March 10, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Patrick
That’s a good point about the Scottish Clearances and the landlords who paid to hire the ships. If we can find information on the landowners in Donegal and look at ships that left Derry to Philadelphia from 1828-1834 maybe something will come up. Perhaps Duffy only ‘hired’ Captain John Young from the John Stamp one time but the real boss as you say was the landlord in Donegal. Perhaps the landowner trying to clear the land did the hiring.
Eileen Breen
March 10, 2013 at 12:26 pm
Tipperary (where Duffy was from) lost 24% of its population and Donegal lost 14% post-famine. That surprised me because I read Donegal had struggled so much during the Famine.
Patrick
March 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Regarding Captain John Young, I think it would be safe to assume that the folk on the John Stamp, or the labourers at least, were indentured servants. I was looking into something a while ago that suggested that the ship captain could well be the owner of the contracts and he would sell these to whoever when the ship arrived in port. I just wonder if these captains paid someone for the contracts before leaving port then sold them on for a profit on arrival. Just guessing of course but perhaps this was a way of paying for the crossing and perhaps to pick up cargo in the US.
Mary Cornell
March 13, 2013 at 12:21 pm
Hello Patrick
I believe the punishment for running off was more time added to the indentured servant’s contract if they were caught and returned. The amount of time would depend on the good or bad nature of the contract owner. Some may have never been free of their contract before they died. Looking at early newspaper ads, there were quite a few indentured servants who took it on the lam judging by the ads from owners wanting their return.
Eileen Breen
March 9, 2013 at 1:30 pm
Does this site only list head of household and not everyone in the home. For example, Doak had a different first name, not John.
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 2:11 pm
The landowner was listed as the defendant so whoever was taking the legal action, I guess, would be the lead tenant and head of household. Certainly not a junior member of the household?
Snippets on these landlords:
Reverend Irwin
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/irwin-frederick-chidley-2263
Reverend Knox
http://knoxsociety.org/Knox%20of%20Raphoe%20-%20Part%20One.pdf
Alexander Stewart
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/member/stewart-alexander-1795-1850
Marquis Conyngham
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=1899
Samuel Hamilton
http://www.ulsterancestry.com/1876_Landowners_Co-Donegal.html
Earl of Clancarty
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/ballinasloe-town-and-pari/the-earls-of-clancarty/
Earl of Leitrim
http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/mss%20lists/leitrim.pdf
Humphrey Babington
http://clanmaclochlainn.com/donega12.htm
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 3:45 pm
Tyrone Landlords
Duke of Abercorn
Robert Alexander
Mervyn Archdale
Captain Thomas Auchinleck
Earl of Belmore
Thomas Browne
Jhn Burges
Earl of Caledon
Earl of Castlestuart
Louisa deBille
Lord Dorchester
John Eccles
Francis Gervais
Arthur Cole-Hamilton
Thomas Hope
Sir William MacMahon
Rev Moutray
Claud Ogilby
Viscount Powerecourt
Earl of Ranfurly
Sir John Stewart
Sir James Stronge
Sir William Verner
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 5:46 pm
Population Decline 1831-51 from All Causes
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1841.htm
Donegal Population
1831 – 298100; 1841 – 296450 ; 1851 – 255150
Tyrone Population
1831 – 303000 ; 1841 – 313000 ; 1851 – 255600
Derry Populatin
1831 – 222550; 1841 – 222250; 1851 – 192000
From those figures, there was only a trickle of emigration from all counties during the period 1831-1841, the real rush came later as expected with the Great Famine. In other words, landlords did not cause the great exodus but they may have done precious little to prevent it.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 11:50 pm
Thank you, Patrick, for all the information you have given us. I find it interesting that many who were recruited may have been neighbors. A lot of land must have been sold at this time. It seems unusual that a whole neighborhood would decide to leave at the same time. It will be interesting to discover the circumstances under which they left.
As Vic pointed out the recruiter alluded to greener pastures in new lands but there must be more to this story. Is it more likely in a community that 1-2 families would experience hard times than for eleven families at the same time? I wonder who owned or purchased the land before and after the migration. Some family may have stayed behind.
Our problem is we don’t know the truth because we don’t have copies of the dental records, findings of the coroner, findings of the anthropologist. We only have access to published articles from second hand sources. Do the anthropologist and coroner have to make the records public?
Mary Cornell
March 9, 2013 at 12:36 am
I think Patrick’s family knowledge just gave us one of our most important clues to those passengers on the John Stamp. I do not think that the presence of those nine names on the passenger list are a coincidence. If we were mapping right now, all ten pins would be in the same spot. Also,the disappearance of so many men from one area would have to have had some kind of newspaper article. It would not have gone unnoticed.
If we can place the other names in the same vicinity, it would show that recruiting was taking place. And I do agree with Eileen and Vic that something was transpiring to cause what is almost a leaving en masse from this area. A promise of greener pastures, you say. How wrong that turned out to be.
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 12:42 am
I take the point of why should it be that the odd person should leave a townland rather than a wholesale exodus. I think this has been touched on before that there must have been a tacit agreement that a junior member of a family would leave when a critical number of family members within a household had been reached. Migration has been described elsewhere as a ‘safety valve’. Also, the gender mix within a household may have ome into it. For a household that made its living from cottage production of linen, three daughters spinning, a male weaving and several males cultivating the flax could just about sustain that household.
Eileen Breen
March 9, 2013 at 1:35 am
On the Tithe Applottement 1829 in Carramore, Donagh lists William Ewing and a John Ewing. Both are not on the J.S. Are Robert Ewing b. 1814 18 years old and John Ewing b. 1816 16 years old one is a weaver and one is a laborer as Patrick said. Are William and/ or John the father (s) of the 2 young men?
Patrick, Are we just looking at Carrowmore? I don’t see as many listings for Donagh, Carndonagh as I see Carrowmore and Carrowreagh, Maghredrummin
Eileen Breen
March 9, 2013 at 1:40 am
I like the idea that the migration was a pressure valve. It would be interesting to see if other communities lost as many to America and elsewhere at the rate Donegal did. It must have been sad to see so many of your neighbors leave at the same time. As we talked about before, the young ones all left leaving just the older folks who may have not been able to do the work or create new jobs.
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 9:30 am
Great Find from Mary !
‘I started thinking about why a large portion of the Donegal population would leave. Completely randomly I came back to the Civil Bill Ejectments for Donegal, 1827-1833. Scanning down the list, there seems to be a large proportion of names that are also on our list and many appear to make the ‘loop’ that we came up with circling Donegal. These families would be perfect fodder for recruitment to America’.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/civilbillejctments.htm
Most but not all of these names were evicted in Donegal and many appear on our list of waxwings, exactly as Mary says. It looks like whole communities were evicted for no reason whatever other than that their lease had run out. Most were listed as ‘Overholding’ and they had no debt through unpaid rent.
The landowners, mostly AngloIrish aristocracy but also some clergy (Reverends James Irwin, William Knox, Joseph Stopworth, John Torrens, Dr McGettigan, John Magee, Charles Nesbitt, John Leslie, Thomas Courne, Anthony Hastings, George Homan, Robert Henderson, Robert Jacob, John Torrins, Richard Allott, William Harvey, Michael O’Doherty, Robert Alexander, William Foster, Robert Thomas and Bishop of Raphoe) were being brought to Court for the Houses of Parliament to intervene to stop those people from being ejected rather than to attempt to mediate or process where necessary through a local Court.
They simply wanted these people out, presumably to hike up the rents. Dr Martin Dowling could offer more insights into all of this as this was the subject matter of his PhD. The evictions do not appear to have been sectarian as it is noticeable that many of these names were probably Presbyterian and ministers were not exempt from eviction. Lord Bishop of Aberdeen evicted Rev Nathan Rogers.Alexander Stewart evicted Rev David Irvin.
The people mainly came from Kilmacrennan, Raphoe and Inishowen (much as I suspected, see earlier posts) but with a smattering from Boylagh, Banagh and Tirhugh (other Ruddy territory). I smell a rat here! Duffy got wise to these mass evictions in North West Ulster and the appearance of the four boats in Derry that Summer was no coincidence.
The names I can recognise are as follows and those suffixed with an S came on the John Stamp, O on the Ontario, P on the Prudence, A on the Asia. Don is Donegal, Der is Derry and Tyr is Tyrone. That just leaves the Barony which is Raph for Raphoe, Hugh for Tirhugh, Kil for Kilmacrenan, Owen for Inishowen, Boylagh and Banagh.
It should be possible to detect patterns between ships, bearing in mind the earlier comment that the age-profiles and occupations varied a lot between ships.
Slevin [Eilis 24] ODonHugh (Rev Irwin)
McElhenny [Bridget 20] SDonRaph
Carland [Patrick 22] ODonRaph (Rev William Knox)
Cochrane [Joseph 25] SDerKil
McGurley [Brian 20] SDonKil (Alexander Stewart)
McGhee [Eliza 24] SDon (Marquis Conyngham)
McSwine – Boylagh (Alexander Stewart)
McDevitt
Allison [Catherine 19] SX
Doak [John 19] SDonKil (Samuel Hamilton)
Hunter [John 16] SDonKil (Robert Ramsey)
McClay [James 20] ODonHugh (Earl of Clancarty)
Diver [William 21] SDonKil (Marquis Conyngham)
McIlwaine [Alex 18] SDonKil (Earl of Leitrim)
Peoples [David 25] PDonKil/Owen (Earl of Leitrim)
Long [John 19] STyr
Gilfillan [John 25] PDer
McNutt [Ellen] AX (Alexander Stewart)
Lecky [James 19] PDonRaph (Rev John Leslie)
McGettigan [Eleanor 20] SDonKil (Robert Alexander, Humphrey Babbington, Francis Boyle)
Hastings [William 20] SDonKil (Earl of Leitrim)
Shiels [William 21] AX (Humphrey Babington)
McMenamin [Margaret 26] ODonKil (Earl of Leitrim)
Gregory [Andrew 17] ODerRaph (Sir Robert Ferguson)
Elder [Alexander 20] ODonRaph (John Hornley et al)
McKinney [Samuel 18] STyr
Elliott [William 15] SDonBoyl (Alexander Murray)
Craig [John 15] SDonBoyl (George Hamilton)
Deyermot [Peter 20] ADonBoyl (Marquis Conyngham)
Sproule [James 22] ODonTyrhugh (Charles Leslie)
Fleming [William 22] AX
Davis [Stewart 22] PDer
Divenny [James 26] STyr
McMichael [James 17] STyr
McCaughill [Daniel 25] SDonBanagh
Stevenson [Johnston 22] PDer
McCanny [Patrick 30] STyr
McGonigle [Nancy 26] STyr
McBreaty [Timothy 24] ODonBanagh (Mary Nesbit)
Speer [Margaret 8] Styr
Donaghy [James 21] Styr
Arthurs [Robert 21] AX
Gibbons [Charles 20] ODonKil (Robert McClintock)
Higgins [John 23] AX
Risk [James 14] SDonRaph (John Loyd)
Putting it a different way, the evicting landowners in Donegal by Barony were:
Raphoe – Rev William Knox, Rev John Leslie, Sir Robert Ferguson, John Hornley, John Loyd.
Kilmacrenan – Alexander Stewart, Samuel Hamilton, Robert Ramsey, Marquis Conyngham, Earl of Leitrim.
There appears to be no particular pattern and the landlords were all at it.
Mary Cornell
March 9, 2013 at 5:57 pm
How Philip Duffy knew what was going on could be as simple as a letter to America from family. I noticed that there were several Duffy families on the list.
As for a pattern, it could also be as simple as getting rid of the small cottage industries in order to increase their acreage of the most arable and pastureable land for the purpose of larger agricultural profit. Don and Patrick, you know the area well, what type of land is being repossessed?
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 6:38 pm
What intrigues me is the coincidental overlap of
1. So many eviction notices but yet so few emigrations (comparatively speaking) from the North West during the period 1831-41.
2. Duffy scouring around the North West of Ireland for scrapings when the biggest numerical shift of population was in the South West during that period. There was no loss of population from any county during that period but a sudden increase of available young folk of the right age in Antrim (+37k), Clare (+28k), Cork (+44k), Kerry (+29k), Limerick (+30k), Tipperary (+35k).
3. Only two peaks of ship departures from the port of Derry – 1832 and 1850. If Duffy had missed the boat (pun) that Summer from Derry he would have had to wait 18 years for the next rush.
4. All of this coinciding with an urgent need to find Irish or Chinese labour to construct the PA railway.
It all smacks too much of organisation rather than random good luck for Duffy. At a time when there was a surge of population over ten years with an increase of 0.5 million, Duffy was simply looking in the wrong place. He would have been far better looking in his home county of Tipperary (if that was where he was from) but he struck it lucky – or he had inside knowledge?
Mary Cornell
March 9, 2013 at 6:52 pm
And too, the rush of 1832 only lasted about four months. There was very little activity before and after.
Eileen Breen
March 9, 2013 at 11:25 pm
Philip Duffy only hired 1 ship: J.S.
Waxwing
March 17, 2013 at 7:29 am
Was this just the Watsons saying so in their book or is this definite?
BTW I went to see Brian Friel’s play last night, ‘Translations’, set in Inishowen in 1833. He had the natives speaking Greek and Latin as well as Irish but refusing in most cases to learn English. I have from a different source, John Edwards’ book ‘Minority Languages and Group Identity’, the snippet that the 1851 Irish Census recorded only 23% of the population as speaking Irish. I don’t know where he got this from as he doesn’t give a reference and I thought there was no extant 1851 Census, hence the importance of Griffiths Valuation, the Census Substitute.
My own view of the play is that Brian Friel was playing fast and loose with the facts and the stereotypes, much as the Watsons have been doing but perhaps a playwright can have that poetic license? The new cardinal-to-be for Ireland, Eamonn Martin, was sitting next to me but he wasn’t in my company, so I don’t know what he made of it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21079648
Eileen Breen
March 17, 2013 at 12:39 pm
Advertisement from the londonderry Sentinel, March 1832
‘The Story of Duffy’s Cut’ #26, also read citations no 27-31 on p.189 in the book.
Advertisement in the Belfast Newsletter, Tuesday, July 24, 1832 and citation no 32 in the book and p 190 listed the John Stamp as being wrecked. p 69 in the book.
These were the only references to the ship I saw. I tried to find them without success in Ancestry. They said Tile Films found the advertisements. Maybe PRONI had it.
I have written to three Corscaden families on Ancestry and Joe McCorkell to ask about the John Stamp but I have received no answer. The only time I saw records on Ancestry for the John Stamp was in the ship manifest. I don’t think we will find it on line. I may have said it incorrectly that he only hired this ship as I never found any other.
Mary Cornell
March 17, 2013 at 11:07 pm
I have been unable to find any sources that can verify if the JS was under hire from anyone other than McClellan. I believe the Watson’s book only said that Duffy hired the men off the ship, it does not say that he specifically hired the JS for the purpose of transporting laborers from NI. And all of the other sources that I can find, seem to be secondary sources quoting the Watsons. All saying thay Duffy met the ship at the dock and hired the workers from there.
Your playwright could have a bit of truth in his language depiction, but probably several centuries off, certainly not in 1833.
Waxwing
March 18, 2013 at 7:43 am
Hi Mary
Thanks for the link on Derry Port
http://ied.dippam.ac.uk/records/35772
It brings some memories back as my Dad was a merchant seaman. He sailed with various shipping lines out of Belfast, possibly also Derry, and he reminisced about the Anchor and Laird Lines, amongst others. I must have absorbed some of this and I dreamt of becoming a ship’s officer but I put that idea out of my head when I discovered I was colour- blind! Not being able to tell between starboard and port on oncoming vessels could have been a bit of a problem! As it was, the British merchant fleet had virtually disappeared by the time I came of age and I had no interest in the Royal Navy.
Patrick
March 9, 2013 at 12:45 pm
The reasons for a number of people leaving from the same area could be down to other factors at the time. There was a famine in Ireland in 1832 also. I don’t know if it was potatoes only that failed or an almost total crop failure similar to the Famine of 1898. I also think that it was about this time that the Rundale Holdings were being torn apart and this could well have lead to families being displaced or finding themselves with less or no land to support themselves.
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 12:54 pm
Not to mention the swingeing increases on whiskey taxation around those times. Whisky distillation was a major source of income for Inishowen and the reputation of its whisky/poitin/moonshine was known far and wide.
http://www.movilleinishowen.com/history/moville_heritage/moville_heritage_htm/illicit_distillation_in_inishowen.htm
For those who fancy trying their hand at making their own whiskey at home, here is a cookbook:
http://curezone.com/upload/Members/ChazTheMeatHe/Books/Survival/6_21_10/Alcohol/Making_Pure_Corn_Whiskey_A_Professional_Guide_for_Amateur_Distillers.pdf
Don’t forgot to invite me to the party!
Patrick
March 10, 2013 at 12:17 am
I don’t know if this will help but perhaps the “recruiting” was done by the landlords or their agents if it was recruiting. I seem to recall when reading into the Scottish Highland Clearances of the landlords “Clan Chief?” arranging and paying passage for some the the people during that time and if memory serves me well some people were given little choice but to accept the “kind” offer
Eileen Breen
March 10, 2013 at 2:53 am
The Morton Skull Project at Penn is interesting as it highlights racial bias in studying human remains. The scientist Gould felt Morton was biased in his research but it was Gould that was. Monge stated did the “end justify the means” when Gould attempted to discredit Morton. In this case it didn’t because it showed Gould as the one who was more racist. My concern for our project is that if we discredit the Watsons’ theory, what do we want to happen as a result? The Watsons have put a few of their racial biases into the mix. Perhaps this is why William and his family want to let sleeping dogs lie? (pun).
The full interview with Janet Monge who also worked on the Duffy’s Cut project shows her to be very knowledgeable. Why did she not intervene when the Ruddys told them that these teeth were pulled not missing. I would also like to know how they can tell if a tooth was just missing or could have been pulled. It should have sent a red flag that if several members of the family had teeth pulled then perhaps John did too.
In 1830 mercury fillings were available in US. Not sure about Ireland. So why was the tooth not fixed? Also teeth were pulled from healthy people and sold for money for making dentures. I saw an interview that said some of the gum and tendons were present on the teeth they found. I’m not so convinced. I couldn’t find any papers presented by Monge or Patterson who spoke in Ireland to dentists on two occasions about the anomaly.
Waxwing
March 10, 2013 at 8:03 am
The thing that bugs me about the Watsons is that they don’t have theories, they only have certainties. Then, if they don’t know something, without even applying any burden of reasonable proof, they make it up. Then to top it up, they seem to be in love with publicity and to have a need to grandstand.
I can’t for one second understand their motivations. Part of me thinks it is something about putting the record straight by bringing into the public domain these papers that their relative colluded in keeping secret. Perhaps it has been left a bit too late and one is left to ponder whether the American or Irish public would have been outraged had the secret come out earlier. I have no way of knowing. Nowadays the reaction appears to be one of some vague interest, and mild curiosity, but not outrage. As you say, is it better to ‘let sleeping dogs lie’ and just let the Watsons continue to spin their yarns if that is what turns them on?
I don’t subscribe to that and, just as soon as Mary has her chapter ready, I will send it to Liz Rushen to gee Liz up with her chapter. Then ‘The Sea is Wide’ will shortly after be ready for publication. Liz has indicated that her publishing house, Anchor Books of Australia, would be interested. To hit the North American market, my plan would be to have International Book Services Limited handle that rather than Amazon but I will leave that to Liz to decide. Once that is out of the way, that would just be a taster for a more substantial book to set the record straight on Duffy’s Cut.
Mary Cornell
March 10, 2013 at 12:51 pm
We have nothing to gain EXCEPT to put the record straight. Wouldn’t our ‘letting sleeping dogs lie’ make us just as duplicitous and culpable in the falsehoods and misrepresentations put forth by the Watsons? I am of the opinion that the truth is the truth and a belief in ‘pure’ history, history that is unencumbered with conjecture, misrepresentation, falsehoods and deception. Right now I see the Watsons as being the worst kind of historians as their work is shoddy and full of unproven conjecture and should not be allowed to stand as historical fact.
The recent events, particularly the revelations by Patrick, have me reworking sections of the chapter with a much harsher pen. The records, if they are false, should be made right, even if we are only pointing out that some ‘facts’ are mere conjecture and should be taken with a grain of salt. Our knowledge of the past should not be obscured by our vision of the past.
Waxwing
March 10, 2013 at 12:53 pm
Cholera in Haiti
In a reasonable approximation to however bad conditions were in Duffy’s Cut, hundreds of thousands of Haitians today live in tents in camps which have sewage in the drinking and bathing water. Cholera has made about 650,000 sick but has killed ‘only’ 8000. That would be about 0.12% of victims, not the 60% of Duffy’s Cut. At a rate of 100 new cases per day, treatment consists simply of rehydration and they are let out the same day.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 9:06 pm
I agree with you that it looks like the Watson’s thesis is false. I was just reading too much into what the Watsons might say: The modern Ruddys also had teeth extracted and it’s a possibility that John did too so maybe we could go with that theory too.
I was looking at the “hotlist” for the Ruddys and there were only a few from Inishowen: McGonigle, Nicholl, McKendrick, Weir, Gibson, Quigley, McKnight and McIlwain. Not seeing Clonmany.
Don’t work too hard in England!
Londonderry
March 8, 2013 at 8:38 pm
Greetings to all! I have been quiet on the net lately, yet have enjoyed the evolving “discovery” phase. Having visited Donegal with my wife several years ago and witnessing some of the parks there which describe the poor times in that area over the years, I suspect that even any promise of something better likely would have drawn these boys to the Duffy’s work. It’s a lot like young men going to war, e.g. WWI, where things look far rosier than they actually are. Especially, when the promoter markets the benefits and conveniently forgets the hardships in their pitch.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:09 pm
FFT: Is the DNA we are talking about present in all teeth or just in the missing one? Do they have to test teeth, blood or just a buccal swab? Also how do we know the tooth is missing from birth or just knocked out when the the alleged violence happened to the men?
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:13 pm
Also it would be interesting to note how many in the current Ruddy family still have the missing front molar. Would this indicate how strong the genetic link still is or the prevalence of the genetic link to the Ruddy family VS those still in Ireland.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:48 am
I guess that would be so.
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 2:31 pm
Patrick: Do you know if any of the Ruddys who married into your family also had the missing first pre molar?
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 8:56 pm
Patrick: On UTUBE I saw a few videos on Donegal. One said Quigley’s Point was also known as Carrowkeel. In the 1911 and 1901 Census of Ireland I didn’t find any Ruddys. I did see the name in a few places. Did the Ruddy family come from Portnoo or Quigley’s Point originally?
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 11:23 pm
There is as you say a lesser-known Carrowkeel just outside Quigley’s Point and the better-known one is in the next peninsula along, Fanad Peninsula, just north of Milford.
According to Griffiths, there were three small pockets of Ruddys in Donegal – in Portnoo, Inishowen and Ballyshannon. By 1901 they were almost exclusive to Clonmany and Culdaff in Inishowen.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 12:50 am
Ruddys weren’t Flaxgrowers nor did they sign the Act of Union. They may be under the name Roddy. I saw in the 1901 and 1911 census the Clonmany and Inishowen groups. Griffiths may be our only clue for the time period we are looking into with the different groups you pointed out.
Patrick
March 8, 2013 at 1:35 am
A few things need cleared up.
Firstly no member of the Ruddy family ever claimed to have a missing first molar. I will use the comment Liam made in the Inishowen Annual to explain what he actually said, ‘Scottish born Liam Ruddy takes up the story: ” I decided to contact the team because of two strange coincidences – the name Ruddy and the genetic tooth defect. At the age of seventeen I had a molar removed from my top left set of teeth because it was impacting on the rest of the teeth in that area. I can remember my dentist telling me I had too many teeth for the size of my gums – our Ruddy line have a narrow jawline. I found this a bit coincidental but subsequently found it is a family trait as my two sisters are also missing certain top and bottom molars for the same reason”.
Secondly, the William Ruddy who was said to have travelled to the USA to give DNA samples when he heard of the project is a myth. What really happened was Liam was in New York on holiday and because we were interested in the project he decided to go to PA on a day trip and visit the site and hopefully talk to the Watsons which he managed to do. How this got turned round into the myth we do not know but we can only think some press person embellished the story.
The problem of the narrow jawline does run through our family group (my daughter included) but for me this is different from a missing moler and indeed explains the dentist (Matt Patterson?) being far from happy with this.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 7:49 am
That was extremely helpful, Patrick, and thanks for that.
The bones in Ardara then belong to any of the following?
John Stamp
John Ruddy, William Doherty, John Long, Hugh Foster, Samuel Bell, William Boyle, Samuel McKenny, William Mahon, John Hunter, William Barber, John Campbell, James Cooke, Samuel Johnston, James Baird, William Ward, James McCrory, Edward McCrory, Donal McFadden, Alex McIlwaine, William Elliott, Robert Ewing, John Craig, William McCormick, George Taylor, William McMichael, Robert McMichael.
Asia
Samuel Scott, Robert Scott, William Campbell, John Fowler, James McFeat.
Prudence
James Steel, James Thompson, William Thompson, David Cowan, James Lecky, Samuel Kyle.
Ontario
Samuel Quinn, Francis Kelly, Andrew Gregory, James McGuire, Peter Neilson, Daniel Doherty.
Four things seem to be clearer to me from Patrick’s insight and from compiling this list:
1. It probably but not certainly was the men off the John Stamp who ended up in Duffy’s Cut, exactly as the Watsons have said all along.
2. The age profile of those on the John Stamp was very unusual as it had too many unattached young men who had not completed puberty. This was no coincidence and some sinister forces were at play to rob their families of these young men.
3. The chances of the bones in Ardara being John Ruddy are 1:26 rather than the chances of it not being him being one in a million as the Watsons have claimed all along.
4. As a rider to the first point, if perchance we are missing something and a congenitally missing tooth is not a red herring, any cousins are most likely to be amongst the John Stamp tranche of boys.
Commentary
When Patrick says that these things need to be cleared up, some thought needs to be given to how exactly to go about doing that. It seems to me by doing nothing this leaves the way clear for the Watsons to keep on building their house of straw, especially now that they have been granted the official recognition of being the Institute that investigates at least six other sites in the US.
The scientific watchdog in the US might need to know especially if a) taxpayer money is likely to be appropriated b) people are submitting DNA material under false pretences c) some other worthier scientific project is losing out through diversion of funds d) to say nothing about the maintaining of standards of seeking out scientific truth.
It seems to me that the Watsons are way out of their depth and that they should have handed this project over to some other team. None of this takes away from the fact that they brought this story into the public domain and that does them enormous credit. It is what has happened since that bothers. However, the amount of hype that has been generated has not necessarily been a bad thing. It has raised the profile of the Duffy’s Cut tragedy and the story would otherwise have just ended up a footnote in some dry history textbook.
The other thing that becomes clear to me is that I should have no further contact with the Watsons. Patrick knows the truth, the Watsons know the truth, but still the Watsons play their silly games. I don’t want any further part of that. Are you listening, Bill?
Footnote: I have run all these John Stamp names through Ancestry.com and they are all recorded on an Immigration Passenger List and then nothing.
Further Footnote: We have enough angles and material to keep us busy for the next two years and to publish a book. All four of us should be part of that project and we can keep our powder dry until then if we so wish? That is not pie in the sky as almost five hundred copies of my book ‘The Sea is Wide’ have shifted already.
Mary Cornell
March 8, 2013 at 1:25 pm
As to what we can surmise, if we take all 26 unaccounted men from the John Stamp and put them at Duffy’s Cut, we are still short 30 men. Do we make the leap and say that another twenty or so also came from the John Stamp? That puts us back to our original hypothesis that all of the men did not come from the John Stamp. We know that Philip Duffy usually housed ten to twelve men so these men would already be in place at the cut. I do not see any way to identify them unless there is railroad documentation somewhere.
This last week the Irish History Foundation gave me 100 free lookups for their database and I have been using them to try and find J Ruddy in their Donegal records. So far no luck in the birth and baptismal records. The Ruddy name seems to make a surge after 1850, but before that there are very few Ruddys documented. Like Eileen, I found more Roddy surnames than Ruddy.
It may be helpful if we went back to Don’s spreadsheet and see if the 26 names are clustered in the same region where we believe John Ruddy lived.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:53 pm
I would also wish to find where the men from the Duffy’s boarding house in 1830 census ended up. Unfortunately we have no names. We can use google map on ancestry to tag the places.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:36 pm
Thank You Patrick for sharing your history and concerns with us. I think it was the Smithsonian article that said Liam came to PA to give the sample. I don’t think the Watson’s have received any funding for their research but maybe for additional projects they may. Patrick’s information breaks this story wide open. I feel a little disappointed that we are going to sit back and wait for the house of cards to fall. Can anyone put a challenge to Ireland’s coroner that the man buried in Ardara is not John Ruddy. As Mary said in an earlier post maybe someone else’s family is looking for their loved one. I hope Patrick you will continue to work with us.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 3:50 pm
Patrick might feel a bit compromised that he has already been put in a very invidious position by insisting on the truth as that may put him in disfavour with anyone in the Ruddy clan who has bought the Watson story? Given that it is his contribution so far that could ‘blow this thing wide open’ I am more inclined to let him decide what is the best way to proceed at this particular juncture.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:55 pm
I agree Don, I don’t want to upset the Ruddy family. I hope we can work along with them. Thank you again Patrick.
Patrick
March 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm
Within our family group there is varying opinions from “Don’t get involved…” to “well maybe it is possible that this is John Ruddy’s remains”. My opinion is and will remain that these remains cannot be deemed to be John Ruddy until proof is supplied and that this can only be done through DNA testing. The rest of the family know my position on this and do not seem to have any problem with me on this. There is no paper-trail to help us prove where John Ruddy came from in Donegal, if indeed he came from Donegal in the first place. It may just have been the last place he lived in before leaving for PA.
In spite of eveything, there is something on the Ships List that may be an indicator that John Ruddy is related to our family group but it is so slim I’M loathe to mention. But it may be better than anything the Watsons have came up with to this point so here goes.
In the Tithe Applotment 1829/1837 in the parish of Donagh(Carndonagh) there is a man called William Ruddy who I believe is related to me (but unsure as yet how) who shared a piece of land with a William Ewing and if you go to the Ships List there are John and Robert Ewing. one a labourer and the other a weaver. After William Ewing’s death his wife remained in the townland and she was a neighbour of my g-grandmothers brother (great-granduncle) until her death. This couple with other names on the list – Doherty, Long, McKenny(McKinney), McLaughlin, Diver, McIlheaney, Quigley, Farren and Campbell – were names that were borne by neighbours of the Ewings and the Ruddys and make me think that perhaps the recruiting of labour was done in Carndonagh perhaps.
All that however does not change my stance as to who’s remains were buried in Ardara.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 10:51 pm
You definitely could be onto something here. Listed in Griffiths Valuation for Donagh were:
Dever (Diver)
Doherty
Gibbens
Herald
McDonagh
McIlhenny
McKenny
Nelson
Missing from Griffiths Valuation are Ewing and Ruddy but they turn up in later censuses. This is a case in point of how different censuses fail to pick up on names that should overlap – for example a name from a long-established name in a parish should crop up successively in Tithe Applotment, Giffiths and Cenuses 1901/11 in that order but often don’t.
Patrick
March 8, 2013 at 11:33 pm
As far as I can see on the cancelled Land Books when Margaret Ewing died (I must check that) the farm she lived on became the property of a family called McLucas and the surname Ruddy changed to Reddy. Later on it changed to Ruddy.
Re what happened to John Ruddy in PA there is a great quote in Charles McGlinchy’s book ‘Last of the Name’ (also used by the Inishowen Annual. “After the wars were over in 1815, lots of ones went off to America. It was all sailing boats at that time. One of the Grants of Clochfin went to America and it took him three months. On the way over he got so seasick that the crew were for throwing him overboard because he was about dead, but some Malin men interfered and woundn’t let them throw him overboard as long as there was life in him. He lasted out the voyage and reached Philadelphia. Instead of taking work he got a pack and soon made the price of a house, and before he died he had a street of houses.”
I think this shows that the Irish knew what to expect when they reached USA and were well prepared to take off as soon as they landed or shortly after that. I just wonder (and hope) if John and some others did likewise. I have been trying for some time to get some information re a John Ruddy, wife, sons and brothers living in Philadelphia mentioned on the 1880 census who was born about the time of the JS John Ruddy but no luck so far. A long shot I know but you never know.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:49 pm
Patrick: What does Liam and Sadie and your brothers think of all this. Are they as uncertain about the findings as you rightly are?
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 4:29 pm
I’m still unclear why Duffy would send to Ireland for fresh young 18 year olds than to use the thousands of young men who may have been more physically fit that were already in Pennsylvania. It reminds me of when young men in World Wars were recruited first. There is a lyric to an Irish song “In 1826, plenty of young men in their 20′s said goodbye.” I think they wanted to use them like pack mules in the mines.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Fair Point. For some reason, it is believed that Irish built the Union Pacific Railway, Chinese built the Central Pacific, they joined up in the middle, and Americans had very little to do with the building of either.
Mary Cornell
March 8, 2013 at 5:57 pm
I think the reason was that the pay was nearly non-existent and the conditions were horrendous. Those who had been here awhile may have already figured out what the game was about or maybe actually worked for the rr and refused to do so again. The men already here would have realized that there were better jobs elsewhere. The rrs would not have a labor force available as the ones here would refuse to work as near-slaves.
Maybe that is why Duffy kept his workers so close, to keep them away from the knowledge of a better life away from the rr.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 7:01 pm
An Irish navvy earned $35 dollar a month building a railway in 1840 in the US. The same navvy earned the equivalent of $25 a month building a railway in England. That is to say 25% less and he was expected to shift in either place up to 20 tons of earth per day but almost certainly the terrain in the US was much more difficult and the conditions much more hazardous.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 7:15 pm
Mary spoke about marking out the areas that those on the J.S. came from. We only have a few from all the ships for whom we have an exact townland name – Aiken family and Ruddy family. All the others are from counties. I think we need to work on pinpointing them to a townland, not just a county. Don had put up possible choices based on corrected names/ transcription errors from the manifests. This info needs to be put on the ancestry pages too.
We only know Duffy was from Tipperary but we don’t know why Donegal was chosen, although it seems ease of travel may have been a factor as the ships went from the Atlantic to the Foyle. On the Donegal website it said if you wanted to travel on a ship you lit a lamp on a hill near the Foyle River and signalled the ship that you were coming. Families said goodbye on the Bridge of Tears before they departed.
The counties we looked at were Donegal to the west, Derry to the East, Tyrone to the South and Leitrim was to the South-West. It just looks like they picked Derry because it was an easy and safe port to bring the ship in to, then they picked townlands North, South, East and West from there. Perhaps Duffy hired the ship and selected these areas because he knew he could fill the ship if he did a little recruiting. Maybe the roads to the Derry port were not that difficult. I saw that the train was not established in the North Donegal area area until 1888. So either walking or horse was their option.
The Watsons may not be too far off with the missing tooth theory, even if it’s not the rare missing molar. Maybe, as Patrick stated, in modern times the overcrowding of the teeth needs a certain treatment to make way for new teeth or, as Mary said, in U.S. it’s common practice to remove teeth to push back teeth into a straighter alignment for braces. Another possibility is that in the 1800s if maybe there was an injury to the tooth, or if it was missing in the first place or if there was an infection or a cavity, the common practice was to pull it. Perhaps John Ruddy couldn’t afford the treatment so the tooth was pulled. Early on the barber was the dentist so perhaps there wasn’t concern to save a tooth.
If we are unable to prove the tooth issue is there any other way to prove John Ruddy is who they say he is? Was he where they said he was, or ere there any letters or family discussions that remember John wanting to go to Pennsylvania? Did he let anyone know his intentions or where he was staying or did he just pick a ship that was going to America and take his chances that he would find housing and a job? Was he planning to send money home or help pay for other family to come?
Patrick said Liam came to New York. Are there other family members who came to NY during this time in theb1830s? Can we try to find this family? How is John related to the Liam Ruddy family?
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 8:28 pm
Have to disagree with you here, Eileen, and that is a pretty rare occurrence. Patrick’s information on the Ruddy narrow-jaw anomaly knocks the Watson tooth-theory completely out of court and points towards it being a complete falsehood. The difference is that a congenital anomaly will not have a cavity in the jawbone where a tooth should have been; an extraction due to whatever cause will still have the cavity in the jawbone.
The rest of the geographical points will be covered in the Excel database when I get round to it (that will be in the next few weeks). The sorts of associations that you refer to will be amenable to proximity measurements of some sort or other. This is where my knowledge of statistics will come into play and it should hopefully become clear.
Nonetheless, I believe your underlying thesis is correct – that Duffy (whether he was from Tipperary or somewhere else) targeted North-West Ulster or he had an agent do that on his behalf. I don’t think he could have done it on his own. I also hope to trawl through the local papers for 1832 and see what I can come up with. I am in England so much these days that will take a bit longer.
Overall, I think today has been a red-letter day, mainly because of Patrick’s input on this occasion, and it brings Vic’s azimuth into play.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 11:16 pm
McKenny from J.S. was 18 years old.
Mary Cornell
March 8, 2013 at 12:20 pm
The Watsons seem to have been always ‘playing at it,’ as noted by Eileen’s comment that they never want to ‘pay the piper’. Any true scholarly endeavor would not be hindered by a lack of funds as the Duffy’s Cut project has been. I am in complete agreement that they are out of their depth; they lacked that investigative determination to get to the truth. I suppose it can be said that they lack the ‘fire in their belly’ that is necessary to complete the task. The lights of fame seem to have been the goal.
It is obvious now why it was important to them to have Patrick seen in a bad light; he knows the truth. As a team, we owe him a huge debt of gratitude for his insights. Thank you Patrick.
BTW I too have a narrow jaw and actually had four teeth pulled (two on top, two on bottom) at the age of 12 when I had braces put on to correct the crowding of my teeth. Might want to inform the Watsons of a possible Ruddy relative!
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:34 pm
On the Duffy’s Cut Facebook page some asked why they buried him in Ardara not Inishowen. Bill Watson said: We had hoped to bury him in Inishowen but the only unencumbered offer was to bury him in Ardara. Meaning the site was donated for free. I wonder if The Watson’s have a thing about money. Either do the right thing (bury him in Inishowen and do the DNA) and “pay the piper” (not sorry for the pun) or not do this incorrectly as they have.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:49 am
Pay the Piper. I love it!
Mary Cornell
March 7, 2013 at 2:39 pm
Remember, they are the pipers, bagpipes. Lol
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:47 am
I think they would have to extract material from the dental pulp, always supposing that there were any teeth left or that were testable. With a congenitally missing tooth there would be no socket present, hence they would know the tooth was never there.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:03 pm
They prefer to test the X chromosome so they can go back as many generations as they can. But if they are looking for the Y chromosome link they may also have to test the Y chromosome. Perhaps Ancestry could help with particulars. When I was interested in doing my DNA I wrote to them about the testing and they answered my questions.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:43 am
It’s a while since I looked at this but my understanding of DNA testing is that Y-DNA testing (the male side) can track more recent mutations within about ten generations or longer, whereas mitochondrial DNA (the female side) tracks further back than that again.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 9:55 pm
If Ancestry can find out through DNA testing if someone’s linked to Niall Of The Nine Hostages or Thomas Jefferson surly the Watson’s can pay under $300.00 to see if the Ruddy family is linked to “AKA John Ruddy.” If we are going to try to see if cousins came over w/ John, then we will need Patrick’s assistance with relatives’ last names. Also prior to burying a missing person in Ireland don’t they need a positive ID? Did the Coroner in Ireland need proof before putting the bones into the ground? Can we find out through Coroner Records in Ireland. Can Patrick request such a record?
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 9:58 pm
Patrick: Can we map out your family tree? We could use a private tree on Ancestry. I thought if we could find some names to search we could see if there others on the ship manifest that might be connected. Thanks
Patrick
March 7, 2013 at 12:18 pm
Eileen
Mapping out a family tree in the time frame of 1832 is a Big Ask. The best I could do is make a guess as trying to find information re family links at this point in time is difficult to say the least. Something worth noting is that when you look at the ships manifest family groups seem to be indicated by bracketing names together. If I applied modern information re names on the family tree I could well be related to a number of names on the manifest. To muddy the waters somewhat we have (unrelated) Ruddys on both sides of our family. My great grandmother on my mothers side was a Ruddy also but from a different parish. Leave this with me and I will see what I can come up with.
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 1:20 pm
Thank you Patrick for your time and effort. This seems to be getting interesting.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:48 pm
Excellent Quote! So true!;)
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:32 pm
I can’t believe Bill Watson wrote to you! That was amazing! Maybe we can ask him about the DNA in a round about way. Ask him about the the DNA information you found maybe this could open the door?
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 1:46 pm
‘Keep your friends close and your enemies closer’
Niccolo Macchiavelli
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 3:44 pm
Logically, the Smithsonian has no reason to lie about the DNA results. On the other hand, if the DNA results were not what the Watsons expected, they would be back to square one and would lose a lot of their credibility. Being that the Watsons were the ones who opened up their work to the public and the press, right to privacy is no longer valid. The Watsons have placed themselves on a slippery slope and don’t know how to get off.
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 1:42 am
The Watsons may not have the right to privacy but Liam Ruddy does. HIPPA laws and all. So maybe if Liam could write to the Watsons to ask what’s up? Then we might have a leg to stand on. Perhaps we could have Patrick look at the ship manifest for J.S. to see if any last names ring a bell with cousins they might have had.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:54 am
You have a good point there. It sounds distinctly dodgy, ethically speaking, to take biological material from a ‘consenting’ and living subject for a specific and agreed purpose and to withhold the results. Liam could have personal information held on him without his knowledge which for all I know could conceivably be used against him if being kept on some database or in a file. Habeas Corpus might apply? In any case, if they are not going to do the test the Smithsonian should destroy the material and erase Liam’s name from their database.
Mary Cornell
March 7, 2013 at 2:52 pm
There is a possibility the Liam has been given the results. He seems to be absent from view in this whole thing.
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 3:57 pm
I just realized something from Eileen’s post. We have never checked into the possibility that John Ruddy may have been traveling with cousins. If the dental anomaly is carried on the x chromosome, sisters would inherit the gene. Married sisters would have different surnames. Difficult task, but something to look into with the younger passengers on the JS. Young cousins may have traveled together.
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 4:15 pm
Another thought on the dental anomaly. If it is carried on the x chromosome,then its occurrence in present day Ruddys may have no correlation to Ruddys in the past. As you stated,the anomaly may be present through a male Ruddy marriage to a female with the gene. This would make identification impossible through the anomaly. Too many outside factors present. So we are back again to DNA being the only definitive answer.
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 8:03 pm
I need to double-check and triple-check before I could be more definitive but from what I have read so far the following appear to be true:
Solitary non-syndromal congenital hypodontia, the kind they found in the Duffy’s Cut, is more likely to be X-linked than the other kinds.
Whether X-linked or not, the chromosome would have to be recessive and it would give way to any more dominant gene. This accounts for the rarity of the physical expression of the gene in the form of in this case the missing tooth.
It the anomaly were peculiar to Ruddys it would not be X-linked and it would have to be incestuous or the effects would wear off or become more dispersed with each generation.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:23 pm
I tried to quickly find records in Donegal for Sadie, and James and Bernard (first cousins). This might be interesting to discover if not only John Ruddy but cousins were on the John Stamp. If Liam Ruddy gave DNA did he have a missing tooth or did Sadie? On Ancestry they ask for the male DNA and I think you learn more about the DNA from the male that is the oldest with a particular last name.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:13 pm
Hi Patrick: Thanks for the information. About two months ago I found an old article about Duffy’s Cut in the Smithsonian Magazine. I wrote to the editor of the magazine and asked about the DNA results and they said we had to ask the Duffy’s Cut project. It’s interesting if the Smithsonian volunteered to do the project for free we should have seen results. Mary saw a post on their Facebook page where someone asked what were the results of the DNA tests that Liam Ruddy volunteered for. It did not get a reply. A new book and a TV movie are soon to come out maybe we will get some answers. Do you know the Ruddy family perhaps we could ask them?
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 1:33 pm
Patrick is a brother of James and Bernard.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Hi Patrick: Are Sadie and Liam 1st cousins?
Eileen Breen
March 5, 2013 at 2:23 pm
DNA samples of Liam Ruddy were taken by the Smithsonian. The same folks who did the film The Ghosts Of Duffy’s Cut. I wrote to the Smithsonian but they said we had to contact the Watsons. Perhaps the Watsons never paid the Smithsonian to do the DNA on the material they took. The DNA testing they do on Ancestry seems reasonable. I don’t understand why it wasn’t done.
Patrick
March 6, 2013 at 12:28 am
This reply was sent to someone I know who asked if there had been any progress re the DNA result. It was dated 16/11/12
Hello ****** –alas, we are at the mercy of the Smithsonian Institution, where it is being done
for us without charge. We are awaiting word.
Thanks!
Cordially,
Dr. William Watson, Immaculata University
http://duffyscut.immaculata.edu
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 8:31 am
Without charge, interesting! Whereas before, the official line was that it was too costly? Also there seems to be a case of smoke and mirrors going on around the missing William Ruddy (presumably a cousin) who is said to have gone walkabout in Australia?
On a slightly different tack, the issue of the missing tooth has been gnawing away at me (sorry about the pun)! The whole Watson case on John Ruddy is built on this dental anomaly rather than the missing DNA. It is true that a missing first premolar tooth is one of the rarer dental anomalies but I started to wonder about the effects of living in a closed community such as Donegal (especially Inishowen) and marrying between way-out cousins.
Recent research appears to show that the chromosomal glitch that is the cause of singular (one-tooth) congenital (born that way) nonsyndromal (nothing else wrong, such as cleft palate, stunted growth or missing nails) hypodontia (too few teeth) is highly likely to be linked to the X-chromosome. That means it could be running down the female line, not the male, although expressing itself in males. In turn, that means you don’t have to be a Ruddy to be missing a tooth, you could just be born to someone who married a female Ruddy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21091672
http://www.unc.edu/courses/2008ss2/obio/720/001/2008_Readings/072208_toothagenesis_reveiw_JDR2008.pdf
I don’t know enough about genetics to say much more than that at this point in time but I mean to find out more. What all that boils down to is that John Ruddy may not be buried in Ardara, it could be a cousin!
In this particular instance, could either of these boys on the John Stamp be a cousin of John Ruddy:
William Ward 17
Donal McFadden 18
There is another whole heap of 18 year old labourers from the John Stamp that I haven’t listed as their surnames are probably Protestant (though that doesn’t necessarily rule out) or they were from neighbouring counties (ditto). Neither have I mentioned a tranche of 18 year olds that came on the other three boats with passengers who could have ended up in Duffy’s Cut.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 8:50 am
This link comes from Mary
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.pennsylvania.counties.chester/9049/mb.ashx
Unless Bill Watson has got himself tied up in knots, this is even curiouser. He talks about an upper missing front molar. There is no such thing as a front molar, but perhaps he means first molar as opposed to third molar. Molar teeth are at the back of the mouth and the rarest tooth that can be missing is the first premolar.
Eileen Breen
March 5, 2013 at 2:19 pm
So if Duffy was from Tipperary he didn’t speak Gaelic? So would recruiting in Ardara be difficult or not if 30% of the area spoke Gaelic. He may also have been illiterate if he only signed with his mark and not his name.
Eileen Breen
March 5, 2013 at 2:14 pm
We had a few people from Prehen. Maybe we would try to look up. On my Facebook page, there is a photo of the town.
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 3:04 pm
Earlier, both Eileen and I had found a few tidbits on Philip Duffy. He can be found in the 1830 census in a house with several male laborers. I do not remember the name of the town, but it was in the general vicinity of Malvern. He is also in the 1870 Census living in a wealthy suburb of Philadelphia. He is also buried in one of the Catholic cemeteries in Philadelphia. The actual location of the grave is not known, but is believed to be in a section that now has a building on top of it. I have been trying to locate where I had seen his birthplace as being Tipperary. I believe it was in one of the earliest articles on the dig. Will keep looking.
Hmmm …The Watsons blocking of Patrick on their sites is very interesting. Patrick may be pointing out exactly what the Watsons do not want investigated more closely. Yesterday, Eileen sent me some of the photos that are posted on the Duffys Cut, immaculata site and what caught my eye is the fact they blurred the image of the purported railroad letter. Why would they feel that was necessary? I suppose that if they blur and block any more info, their web site will be empty.
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 6:13 pm
Duffy surname research
,http://www.selectsurnames2.com/zselectsurnames2/duffy2.html
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 6:37 pm
More-
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/IRL-TIPPERARY/2004-07/1089624303
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:35 am
I don’t think it was intended to block the information, they put photos of the file in their book. A little hard to read but if you use a magnifying glass you can. The file is in the center of the book, no page number.
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 2:19 pm
On the John Stamp tree I tried to look up census records for Philip Duffy. I only found one and a few snippets on his son. It was strange he only appeared in an 1830 census with the ten Irish workers who were not listed by name. I would like to see if any of the woman on the John Stamp took over employees of the P&C RR. Thanks for the email. Now we know Ruddy may have been From Portnoo, Inishowen or near Quigley’s Point and we have 3 relative names James, Bernard and Sadie. Can Patrick give us any updates? Also the article said Slieve Tooey was the last place John would have seen before he left Ireland.
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 3:18 pm
Liam Ruddy is the one who gave DNA to the Smithsonian when he came to the US.
Mary Cornell
March 5, 2013 at 1:11 pm
Now that John Ruddy is buried, are there any DNA samples available?! Or have the Watsons made it so that any samples would only be available from them?
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 9:13 pm
I sent you and Mary the slide show from the funeral. My Guess photo #51 is Sadie Ruddy (Portnoo, Donegal), and her first cousins James Ruddy and Bernard Ruddy (Quigley’s Point). The article said John Ruddy’s hometown was Inishowen. Looking at the slideshow: In the very beginning a man in a turtleneck and khakis took the casket out of the hearse (maybe he’s from the Watson’s team?). After him were the men in black who I’m assuming were undertakers as one of them lowered the casket into the ground. The lady in blue and two men were next in line. Not sure if Liam was there. There also was a photo of an older gentleman in the center with two ladies, perhaps daughters, who looked like they were from the same family? Maybe, Liam Ruddy and his daughters. The others are photographed in larger groups like they were bystanders. I guess we will have to wait for the TV movie and book.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 11:35 am
I believe the guy in the turtle neck is Earl Schandelmeier, one-time student of Bill Watson and adjunct Professor at Immaculata. Not surprisingly, I heard a few of the people there speaking in Gaelic, even the younger ones in their twenties, which was quite pleasing to me.
Mary Cornell
March 5, 2013 at 1:34 pm
My thought was that the woman in blue was Sadie based only on her presence in several of the photos and she and two men were first in the procession. I don’t think Liam was there, but the duffer in the hat is still interesting.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 1:49 pm
I have the answer to that but it would be better coming from Patrick who has been in touch with me by email to give me the lowdown. Here is my reply to him:
“Sorry you couldn’t make it to Ardara. I was very much in two minds about it and the trip wasn’t really worth it, other than being able to look Bill Watson in the eye, and my wife got some nice new purchases in McElhinneys in Ballybofey on the way past!
I am glad you made contact as a kindred spirit. I sense I am persona non grata with them but no way is that going to put me off. Feel free to continue to add your tuppenceworth and you will categorically never be bumped off my website! Also, you will find in Mary Cornell and Eileen Breen two good new buddies”.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 1:51 pm
I don’t understand how the Smithsonian works. I would have thought they have a duty to inform and educate the public without strings attached?
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:43 am
My guess since the Duffy’s Cut project initiated and would be funding the DNA analysis they have their right to privacy of the results. The film they were making in Ardara is for TV. The first film was done by the Smithsonian. Maybe they mentioned the DNA in the film we didn’t get to see. I keep looking for it to come out on the Smithsonian website but so far it hasn’t happened. I’m envious you got to go shopping! My favorite pastime!
Mary Cornell
March 5, 2013 at 2:17 pm
Don, feel free to give Patrick my e- mail address if he is more comfortable not using a public forum for all of his insights.
I told you you would owe your wife big time.
Looking Bill Watson in the eye and making him squirm, to me, was worth the trip.
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 8:51 am
BTW I got an email from Bill Watson saying it was great meeting me (!) and giving me a whole spiel on his Donnelly ancestors. As usual, he avoided my suggestion that I put to him that, never mind the Ruddys, Donnellys shouldn’t have been too hard to find in Donegal. It is a comparatively rare name there, at least as rare as Ruddy.
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 3:00 pm
My suspicious mind is at work. Certain actions by Bill and Frank at certain times makes me wonder if they are following our comments on this page. Deflecting again? Bill may also want to keep his enemies close. I was always rather fond of Machiavelli.
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm
I would be surprised if they weren’t following it. If you Google my name alongside Duffy’s Cut half of the entries on the first page refer to me.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 9:05 am
I think there was a little bit of poetic license when Fr. Laverty said that Ardara/Portnoo would be the last place the emigrants saw when they left Ireland. That would more likely be the Fanad Peninsula or the Inishowen peninsula which includes Malin Head. Otherwise the ship would have had to turn a corner and hug the Donegal shoreline, instead of heading straight across to America.
Eileen Breen
March 2, 2013 at 11:00 pm
Prior to our hiatus, we talked about the Passenger Act that affected Irish immigrants and indentured servants. I saw an article on NBC News about the Cruise Vessel Safety And Security Act. The Carnival Ship Triumph had made the news on 15 Feb 2013 when it lost all four engines and passengers and had to endure several days on the ocean before they were towed to a New Orleans port. The passengers originally embarked in Texas.
The issue was that even though passengers embarked in the US the ship was registered in the Bahamas. The passengers had to read the fine print and signed an agreement to abide by their (Carnival Cruise Line) terms. Often passengers don’t realize ships are registered in foreign ports. By signing the passenger agreement, Carnival Triumph passengers gave up their rights to compensation. Those travelling on ships are not as protected as those who travel on planes. The passengers of the Triumph had no rights to receive compensation for the psychological effects when this event occurred. This was stated on their passenger agreement that they signed prior to their voyage.
When the engines on the ship failed the passengers and crew were stranded on the open ocean. As a result, they had no fresh-running water or fresh air, sewage was seeping all over the ship, there was lack of food and a prolonged period of time enduring these conditions before they were rescued. Sounds familiar? In comparison, planes offer stiff fines if passengers are left on the tarmac for more than 3 hours, if they don’t provide for safety measures, food and water etc. Knowledge is power. It pays to read the fine print.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Prior to our break we had a lot of questions to be answered. Looking back on the Fear Of Contagion article (Well written Don!) and the comments below that we still have a lot to do! Where does that leave us?
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 5:02 pm
Personally, I don’t think we need to bring anything more to the table. I think we have enough material, as summarised by me in the Archives page. I plan to focus on completing the Excel spreadsheet and to see what leads come from any patterns that emerge from that. I also plan at the correct juncture to make a renewed contact with the Donegal Democrat to get them to follow through on the Ardara angle which could be a launching pad for a fresh initiative. I think between us we could decide what criteria to apply to the Ancestry searches and include the findings of all our waxwings in the database. Then we might be getting somewhere. I punched John Doak DOB 1813 born in Ireland in for starters and I came up with someone who appeared as a teamster in the 1871 Canadian Census.
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 2:34 pm
There are several John Doaks but I couldn’t find Amelia. I wasn’t sure if the one in Canada was correct. I was thinking he may have worked in a mill as he was a weaver. But it could be possible he ended up in Canada and worked a a farmer/ weaver as he got older. I didn’t see any records that he travelled from Philadelphia to Canada. I saw in Philadelphia there was a Doak textile/rug store but I couldn’t find out anything on the company. Just a lot of possibilities. Sometimes going to Philadelphia and looking through the books in the library might be more useful than trying to do this on line.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 8:56 am
I saw that there was a whole clan of Doaks that left from Donegal for the US in the late 1700s so our John was probably the latest in a whole line of them so he will not be discoverable.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 3:04 pm
The Watson’s last letter was very informative. He seems to disagree with us that John Ruddy was English speaking and may have been more educated that the Watsons believe. Also he assumes that the Irish just want to fight with one another over their religion. They were trying to get away from their problems, not trying to keep the old issues from hindering them. They wanted a better life. Perhaps they were trying to get along with everyone despite sentiments at home and abroad.
Mary Cornell
March 3, 2013 at 4:51 pm
That last letter by Bill Watson had a distinct ‘attitude’ that bothered me. He was basically saying that these findings are true because I say they are. He simply spit back what was said in his first book. He also seemed to think that by saying everything would be discussed in the second book made the suppositions true. He sees our questioning of his conclusions as a personal attack on him rather than an attempt to get the facts straight.
The way I see it, he is the one who has called his own integrity into question. I also have a problem with Janet Monge’s scientific process. Except for the actual head wounds, everything else is conjecture. She herself said early on that it was impossible to tell if any of the remains had cholera as there was no tissue left. And as Eileen pointed out, you cannot judge stature by a skull and jawbone.
Bill’s actions yesterday clearly had the arrogance of someone who does not take kindly to anyone questioning his findings. I personally thought it to be completely disrespectful to ignore Don’s presence yesterday. I fear all he is done is ‘awaken the sleeping giant’. We all seem more determined than ever to find the truth and set the record straight.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 11:27 pm
I was looking at the John Stamp (immigrants came from Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh, Donegal, Leitrim and Monaghan); the Ontario (N.W. Ireland); the Prudence (Tyrone and Derry) and Asia (“Ireland”- no townlands listed). It looked like the North West of Ireland was recruited on three of the ships.
When I searched why the North West of Ireland was recruited in 1832, a story popped up about the DuPont Irish who owned a gunpowder factory in the eighteenth century. Multiple members of several generations were recruited from N.W. Ireland and it wasn’t only the family that sponsored other families to come over but shop owners, and other workers employed in the town where the DuPont’s lived as well as their employees. One employee sponsored thirty four members of the DuPont family.
I was thinking about our saga and maybe Duffy didn’t act alone. Maybe workers and owners of the railroad and merchants also recruited the Irish laborers, weavers and farmers. The book Black Powder And White Lace also suggested that woman also assisted in bringing the family over. When you put some of the towns on the Ancestry google map you can see how they travelled recruiting workers. So all three ships carried workers who were from the North West of Ireland and with but a few exceptions, being Leitrim, Laois and Antrim.
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 12:03 am
That is true and it is even more concentrated than that – 80% of the immigrants came from within a fifteen mile radius of Lifford in Donegal and Ardstraw in Tyrone. Hardly any came from Derry and hardly any came from Gaelic-speaking places. From that alone, it would appear that Duffy was not acting alone.
That is to say, unless Duffy came from round these parts himself? If Duffy came from Donegal, it is highly likely judging by his surname that he was a Gaelic speaker. Likewise, judging by his surname, he was five times as likely to have come from Donegal as Tyrone. If he did come from Donegal, he had little success recruiting from the part of Donegal that he most likely came from.
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 12:48 pm
Didn’t the Watsons state somewhere that Duffy was from Tipperary? Quite a ways from the recruiting area to say the least and, if he were from Tipperary, was he Gaelic-speaking?
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 2:22 pm
I discovered Prehen is in Derry right on the Foyle. It looks like it would have been their first stop to recruit people. If you google it it has an interesting history of the town.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 9:02 am
Prehen is not actually a town as it is little more than a tiny suburb of Derry, no more than a few fields.
Eileen Breen
March 2, 2013 at 1:37 pm
It’s probably best to not go to the service. I do think the Watsons have the best intentions. If the book was written more objectively I think the Watsons would have got farther with me. I think Frank Watson likes a good story with folklore and all. The only time I saw negative postings on their site was recently. They brought this on themselves with all the publicity. Perhaps if they had made the service private and invited just the Ruddys then it would be less sensational.
I do think the Watsons are respected by the students and the Pennsylvania community. I wish they would reach out to Patrick Ruddy to answer his questions. I don’t think researchers usually invite the press at every finding and publicize it with articles and a film. I watched a Special on The Titanic and it was told in a objective manner by the researchers who showed compassion for those who were lost as well as the Belfast workers and families of those who built the ship. The Watsons can save the ‘I caught the big fish story’ for the classroom but when discussing their findings leave out the tall tales.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 6:11 pm
Too late.
I went to Ardara and I dragged my wife along with me. We had a cup of tea in the parochial hall where the Watsons played the bagpipes. I did not go to the service as it didn’t sit right with me and I arrived just as the interment had been completed. I went up to Bill Watson and I introduced myself but by the look on his face I don’t think he was particularly pleased to see me. In fact he seemed lost for words (unusually for him). In Northern Ireland they have a word for it – gobsmacked. I tried to get a word with Frank but he was too busy speaking to a journalist and I slipped away. I intend to have no further contact with the Watsons unless they have contact with me first. I will post some of my photos later on the website. I am not discouraged by Bill’s lack of interest or lack of welcoming of my attendance and, having looked him in the eye, I am more determined than ever to put some of the falsehoods and fabrications straight.
Mary Cornell
March 2, 2013 at 7:01 pm
You owe your wife big time for this one.
Whether it was a good idea or not, I think it was important to meet the Watsons in person. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall after you left. It seems to have been awkward for Bill, like a child caught in a lie who hopes nothing is said about it. A gentlemanly or scholarly reaction would have been to engage in a conversation, no matter how short, about the differing views.
Your opinion of the man after having met him?
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 7:14 pm
Having my wife there was a good idea as I would otherwise have been like a lost soul, sitting in the hall as a complete stranger and wondering what I was doing there. She thought it odd, to say the least, that Bill did not seek me out in that small hall which only had a smattering of people in it and put some kind of a face on things. For all he knew I could have gone to some considerable trouble to get there – a five hour car journey I suppose was trouble enough. Also, I was probably one of the few people there who had some informed and genuine interest in the occasion. Enough said!
Eileen Breen
March 2, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Thank you, Don, and to your wife for taking the time and compassion to set the record straight. I tried to check out Dee Campbell from Facebook who claims to be a relative of William Diver b. 1811 (laborer), Elizabeth Diver (spinster) and her son, John Diver age 1.
I put the name Diver as an alternate under their names. The John Stamp manifest has the name listed as Diven from Donegal. Tithe books have five William Divers in 1828 from townlands of: Aughalalty, Mevagh, Donegal; Dallylosky, Donagh, Donegal; Dually, Clonmany, Donegal; Dromore, Donaghmore, Donegal; Letter, Clonmany, Donegal. Spelling for towns from Ancestry. Letter, could it be Letterkenny?
There are Campbells on the John Stamp but they are from Tyrone. I don’t know if we want to ask Dee how she’s related to the Divers? I couldn’t find anything definitive on Ancestry or in Ancestry family trees for this name.
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 8:02 am
Dee seems quite a character and her Facebook is a hoot. She is into cosmetology and she has been married six or seven times, she says she has lost count!
Patrick
March 2, 2013 at 7:39 pm
Hi Waxwing
Now that the remains of whoever this person was have been laid to rest, I hope that you will continue to try to expose some of the falsehoods and fabrications you believe are attached to this project. The Watsons continual claim that these are the remains of John Ruddy, or anyone else for that matter, are in my eyes disgraceful to say the least. Clearly they cannot prove this and if you step back and look at this it brings the rest of their “work” into question. If they have been found to tell one lie how many more have they told. As far as I am concerned these remains are those of John Ruddy simply because the Watsons want them to be.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 8:05 pm
Hi Patrick
Thank you for this input as Eileen, Mary and myself from the Waxwing Project crew have all been asking about you recently. You have been very much the lone soldier for so long and you are very welcome to jump on board.
I have taken some photos from the Ardara carnival and they head up the new Duffys Cut page on this website.
All the best
Don
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 10:41 pm
According to the article, one body buried separately was that of John Ruddy. The rail road records show only one man was 18 years old. One body found was that of a man who was 18 yrs of age. The other bodies of men in their 20′s couldn’t be identified because of “too many possibilities.” I think their research has too many possibilities!
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 11:21 pm
The Duffy’s Cut project on Facebook has more comments recently. I emailed Mary that I saw two comments, one from Margaret McLaughlin that Inishowen is far from Ardara and a comment by Patrick Ruddy. Someone said that they saw Patrick Ruddy’s comment and made a nasty remark about it – that he should say he’s sorry for insulting the Watsons (which he didn’t)! He just said he didn’t think the remains they found could be John Ruddy’s with so little evidence – that it was a lie! The other person said he should put up his evidence or take down the comment. I had seen his comment this AM but now it’s nowhere to be found. Perhaps Patrick took it down, which is too bad. Can we contact him to let him know we are still trying to find out what happened?
Mary Cornell
March 2, 2013 at 1:00 am
I don’t think Patrick took it down. When I was reading the comments I noticed a question about the DNA tests and why was it taking do long. That question went unanswered while questions that appeared later were answered. Frank seems to be very good at deflecting by using flattery to not answer a question. I have to disagree about there not being an agenda. Or more to the point, the Watsons look like they are trying to hide the fact they just don’t know and get their backs up when someone appears to be criticizing.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 7:51 am
I put together some time ago a short feature article, ‘Eagla na Galru’ (The Fear of Contagion), which I sent to the Donegal Democrat and the Donegal News, the same papers that are giving this circus in Ardara so much column space. I never received an acknowledgment, let alone a reply, so clearly anything that could be seen to possibly spoil a good story does not go down well.
The article can be seen at the top of the Food for Thought page under DraftEagla if clicked upon. I sent a copy to the Watsons as well and Bill came back with a sharp retort, accusing me of having spoken to the forensic dentist, Matt Patterson, who fell out with them. This dentist was allegedly going about pouring cold water on the more sensationalist parts of the story. He sounds a good person to link up with?
I very well may not make it to Ardara today. My wife is thoroughly disapproving of the idea as she thinks the whole caper is a sham and that it is disrespectful to the Ruddys and the other unidentified deceased.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 8:25 am
UPenn Article on Duffys Cut
I came across this feature article from UPenn which covers the ground (sorry about the pun) in a balanced and considered way:
http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1110/feature1_6.html
It portrays William Watson as a kind of Indiana Jones character who is way out of his depth and who is like a bull in a china shop. Watson is seen as someone who stumbles across the truth because of his blind enthusiasm, and despite his undoubted flaws and lack of critical faculty. The article also describes that certain members of Watson’s team, notably Earl Schandelmeier, have tried to rein Watson in without success but they stick with him because he is the driving force behind the Duffys Cut project. His steamroller approach, although unscientific, can be quite contagious.
I think I’m starting to like this guy!
Mary Cornell
March 2, 2013 at 8:36 am
Of course it is a sham, but shouldn’t there be at least one person there who is there to honestly honor the memory of those lads who crossed the ocean and never returned? The Ruddy family must certainly feel used by the circus this seems to have become and their absence is understandable. I am not sure if I would go if the opportunity was mine. Your wife is right, but….
The question I would ask the forensic dentist would be – how prevalent was the dental anomaly in Northern Ireland, not just in the Ruddy family.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Every time they get asked a question about DNA the article either says they’re still waiting for results, haven’t got the results or need the funds to do it. One of the first articles done by Smithsonian Magazine which also produced the movie that’s on the Smithsonian HD Channel this month said the Smithsonian did the DNA. I wrote to the Smithsonian who said we would have to write to the Watsons for the results. I think they have the results but they’re inconclusive but they went ahead with the service, 1 year memorial in PA on Mar 9, 2013 and the film crew from the Smithsonian that was at the funeral service yesterday. I don’t think they will make the results known or they know they will be challenged.
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 6:00 pm
Intriguing! The Smithsonian are not disclaiming all knowledge so must have more than a passing acquaintance of the sample. They are being very coy about sharing information, which is in marked contrast to the Watsons whose line is that the test was too costly to carry out. Who and what to believe?
Patrick
March 3, 2013 at 5:48 pm
My comments were removed from the Duffy’s Cut Facebook page by their team while they left their own. But they in turn were removed after I e-mailed them with a long reply, pointing out the folly of what they posted. I pointed out that there was more than one labourer on the John Stamp age about 18 years old. There were in fact sixteen labourers in the age group of 11 years old to 18 years old and some others aged 19 who may well could be brought into the equation.
The Facebook page in the first instance denied this, then tried to deflect from this by pointing out how many labourers there were on the John Stamp but they were still not willing to point out I was in fact correct. As things stand at the moment they have blocked me from making further comment on the page. Looks like they do not want to be taken to task any more. I wonder why?
It is also worth noting that as I look at it, it seems that because they were contacted by members of the Ruddy family that means that these remains must be John Ruddy. Where is the science in that? They have made a quantum leap from a name on a ship’s list to remains in a grave. I also think that the DNA results will never be known as it may cause problems for the Watsons at a later date.
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm
Thanks for that input, Patrick, which adds grist to the mill. Well spotted also about the number of 18 year olds on the John Stamp. It may be of interest for you to know that Bill Watson warned me against being taken in by Dr Matt Patterson, their erstwhile forensic dentist. It was Dr Patterson who flagged up the one solid piece of evidence tnat the Watsons have and that they play upon, namely the anomalous missing upper premolar. Apparently Dr Patterson has fallen out with the Watsons over this and refused to hold the line on the official Watson version. As I understand it, it is the combination of unsealed cranial fissures (indicating an 18 year old) and missing premolar that has convinced the Watsons the remains have to be those of John Ruddy, not just the age alone. Not an unreasonable stance to take but not watertight either, hence the need for the DNA.
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 7:48 am
Mary has forwarded the article from the Donegal News which has a few interesting additional snippets:
http://donegalnews.com/2013/03/donegal-man-killed-building-america-finally-get-proper-burial/
The article reports that three Ruddys were in attendance, Sadie (from Portnoo, which is just round the corner from Portnoo) and James and Bernard from Quigley’s Point in Inishowen. None of them gave quotes to the paper, all of them had the same dental anomaly, and their attendance might imply they gave their blessing to the proceedings.
It begs the question why they agreed to have John Ruddy buried in a stranger’s grave, rather than find space for him in a family plot, but perhaps they will speak on the documentary. The officiating priest remarked,” In a strange way it’s appropriate that his [Duffy's] remains are laid to rest in his native country”, but he likewise did not comment on the appropriateness of a strange grave to serve that end. At least he got the ‘strange way’ part of it all right.
The article also reports that Bill Watson’s department is to house an Institute that will explore at least six other mass graves in PA and neighbouring states. This whole thing is certainly gathering a lot of momentum, where will it all end?
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 9:01 am
BTW
Anyone thought of trying to find any details on Philip Duffy himself? There must be some trace of him in the form of an obituary at least? If he can’t be traced, what hope of finding any of the railroad workers? He’s not even listed in the PA censuses as far as I can see.
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 9:26 am
Matthew 8:22: ‘And Jesus said, let the dead bury their dead’.
http://www.masscosh.org/files/Workers%20Memorial%20Day%20Report%202009.pdf
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 12:02 am
My gut tells me that much of the way the findings are being presented is counterfactual, hyperbolic and a house of cards. I think the only way to counter this is to come back with incontrovertible material that has a solid evidence base and that is not simply speculative. Whenever I nicely challenge the Watsons with a contrary or questioning proposition, all I get from them is ‘hmm, we will feed this back to The Team’. This has happened on a few occasions now but The Team never comes back with a reply, considered or otherwise.
I don’t think posts on Facebook is the answer as that just leaves it open to nutters to fire off angry and empty headed ripostes. Patrick Ruddy was once a fan of the Watsons but he appears now to be totally disillusioned with them. I think also it was very mean of the Watsons to take a sample for DNA testing but never to carry out the test, on the basis of cost they say, but they can somehow find the price of three airtickets this weekend. Also they claim to have tried to make fresh contact with those Ruddy relatives again but without success. It remains to be seen whether any Ruddys will turn up at the interment?
Waxwing
March 1, 2013 at 8:58 am
The Latest on Duffys Cut
In advance of the reinterment on Saturday coming of John Ruddys bones in Ardara in Donegal, the Donegal Democrat has a piece which offers up the current thinking of the Watson Team on the ‘mystery’:
http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/a-tragic-180-year-old-mystery-1-4789843
They seem to have come away from the position that there was mass slaughter and are more inclined to think that all but seven died from cholera rather than that they were murdered. They are categorical that the seven were murdered but this is still a toned down version of some earlier versions of the story.
As is clear from the Donegal Democrat piece, some probable mistruths or dissimulations are still being fed to the press:
‘Twenty one of the group [of 57] were from Donegal, the rest were from Derry and Tyrone’
‘Seven people fled but were forced to return’.
‘The seven bodies were buried by people who did not know they were burying murder victims’.
‘[They were despatched] because they were Irish Catholics. End of Story’.
There is no agenda or motivation at play in these misrepresentations from the Watsons, it is more a case of loss of objectivity through so close an involvement with the project. To use a pun, it is more a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees and a more objective account of the gaps of knowledge of the Duffy’s Cut saga can be found in the Archives section of this website.
Waxwing
March 1, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Dealing with the first proposition that 21 were from Donegal:
John Stamp
George Doherty
John Ruddy
William Patchill*
John Hunter*
James Doherty
William Hasting*
William Diven
William Ward
John Creighton*
Donal McFadden
Alex McIlwaine*
John Long
Daniel McCahill
Brian McGourley
William Elliott*
David Patchill*
John Ewing*
Robert Skelton*
Thomas Skelton*
Raymond McElhinney
George Quigley
There were enough young male labourers on the John Stamp to make up the number of 21, exactly as the Watsons say. However, they do not explain their insistence that the work squad came off that particular ship rather than the other ships that arrived from Derry within the same time-frame – the Asia, Prudence or Ontario. Also, what is clear is that about half of the crew (asterisked) were not Gaelic-speaking Irishmen at all, despite the Watsons’ insistence.
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 1:58 pm
I’m confused by this “list of 21 from Donegal”: The book ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’ p. 68-9 lists those from Donegal asGeorge Doherty,age 28; John Ruddy, age 18; William Putetill, age 20; Daniel McCahill,age25; Bernie McGarty, age 2o; David Patchetill, age 20; Robert Skelton, age 20; Bernard McIllheaney, age 23; George Quigly, age 22. This totals 10. From the book ‘The John Stamp’ we have “21 of the laborers were in their twenties.” 15 of the laborers were in their teens. From Tyrone were James Deveney, Robert McAnamy and Samuel Forbes; from Derry were John McGlone, age 25 and John McClannon, age 24.
Waxwing
March 1, 2013 at 5:28 pm
An insight into the Ruddy Ardara Interment March 2nd 2013
From Daily News, Delaware County PA
‘Researchers are going ahead with Ruddy’s burial this weekend because of a looming deadline for a documentary film crew that has been following the Duffy’s Cut project. Ruddy’s relatives, who could not be reached for comment, are expected to attend, as are other community members’
‘Ruddy’s jaw also had a genetic dental abnormality — a missing molar. It’s a trait that still runs in his family, according to Watson, who said modern-day Ruddys in Ireland contacted him after reading about the discovery. One Ruddy donated a DNA sample to confirm the identification in 2010, but researchers have not had the time nor the money to complete the analysis yet. However, it’s unlikely another body with that bone size and “super-rare” tooth anomaly would be found at the site, said University of Pennsylvania anthropologist Janet Monge, who works with the all-volunteer team’.
http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/02/28/life/doc512f8594103d5516374364.txt?viewmode=fullstory
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 10:30 pm
If the box of bones they are showing in the latest articles are of John Ruddy this is amazing. How do they know he is of small stature when they don’t have the whole skeleton? They have less than a shoebox full. It looks like a partial skull and jawbone. Also they never ran the DNA after all this time! They made over $50,000 on the book. Where did the money go? If John Ruddy wanted to go to Philadelphia willingly, how do they know if he would have wanted to go home to Ireland. He’s not even in the right town. As someone said Inishowen is a good distance from Ardara. On their facebook page: Imaculata University/ Duffy’s Cut is where I saw Patrick Ruddy’s statement saying he thinks this is a lie, although he was trying to say it a little nicer. Can’t wait to see what tomorrow brings!
Eileen Breen
January 16, 2013 at 1:46 pm
Thank’s for the link to The Belfast Newsletter. I briefly looked at this site when we were talking about Cholera in Ireland. I found a few articles on Cholera. I liked the site. I’ll have to check it out to see what ships sailed out of there and if they made it to their destination. I found a few articles on ships sailing out of the Derry Ports and what happened to them.I think we have enough evidence to write about the Passenger act and the American passenger act, I was thinking the protection and carriages act protect all except the Africa and lowest income levels.
Eileen Breen
January 15, 2013 at 3:28 pm
FFT: I found info on cost of service industry in Ireland, England and Philadelphia.
A. Apprenticeships (education in a trade) in England and Ireland: a precursor to indentured service.
B. Passenger Acts in England and US. This could outline an article for us. (The need to protect passengers).
C. 600 children kidnapped from Abererdeen and a story of one child who returned to sue his captors.
D. The Year Of Coffin Ships that sailed to Montreal and Quebec in Canada. On Ancestry I found a registry for RC and Anglican parishes that adopted the children.
E. Several Ships from Derry port where the passengers arrived ill or died. I found ships manifests on Ancestry. Also the Derry Port and the Linen industry and how linen was used in the slave trade in southern US.
F. Cost of Slavery and indentured service in US
G. Service industry in Philadelphia after 1829
H. Current issues and costs of slavery in US and around the world. 27 million in human trafficking, exploitative labor.
I’ll put up some stats on the Ancestry:Ireland timeline. I’ll look at Ancestry to see if there are ships manifests for slaves. I think I saw there were some. I’ll save the information for after we come back but I just wanted to see if I was on the right track or not.
Waxwing
January 15, 2013 at 11:09 pm
Belfast Newsletter
I went for the first time to the Tyrone Local History Society group which meets in Omagh. It is quite a small group but the folks are old hands, very welcoming and friendly. I will continue to attend their monthly meeting but in the meantime I picked up a few snippets.
You probably knew already but you can read the Belfast Newsletter on-line on Ancestry. So it seems it was right under my nose all along but I begrudge the extra cost entailed as the Ancestry system has me down as an American so my subscription only covers the US. All the local libraries let you view Ancestry free of charge so I will just arrange my weekly schedule to suit.
Meanwhile, here is the link
http://search.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=2193
Eileen Breen
January 10, 2013 at 3:04 pm
Clonmany, Donegal Tithe: 1827: John Ruddy p. 9. Widow Ruddy p 18. 2 Roddy’s and a widow p 38. Edward Ruddy p 48: Ballinaroe. William, Nogher and Bryan Ruddy p 53 in Boherna. p 54: Owen, edward, Neal, Edward, Michael Ruddy. Also lot’s of Duffy’s, Doherty: majority of the landowners, Gonnigle, Kelly, Devlin, Cahill, 1 Barr.
Mary Cornell
January 6, 2013 at 5:07 am
Quick question- We have the name Diven as one of our waxwings. The last couple of weeks of going back over our sources, I keep coming across the name Diver in County Donegal. Is there a possibility that this is the name of our waxwing?
Don MacFarlane
January 6, 2013 at 9:17 am
According to Griffiths Valuation, there is only one instance of the name Diven in Ireland and that belonged to a single lady in Maghera in County Derry. Diver on the other hand was a reasonably common name, mainly to be found in Donegal, around Kilmacrenan, Tullyfern or Killygarvan. These are adjoining parishes on the outskirts of Letterkenny. From my point of view, Diver works but Diven doesn’t.
Mary Cornell
January 4, 2013 at 8:26 pm
Don, you make me laugh. It seems that you are chomping at the bit for a chapter or at least the glimpse of one. I picture you sitting at your desk with your editing fingers at the ready poised above the keyboard, your sweatband on your head and a water bottle close by, waiting for the whistle to blow.
Run-on sentences not withstanding, never fear, a chapter is being crafted. With this particular writing, my modus is to write a section at a time in no particular order or more precisely, in the order that I have the best feeling for the information. Several of the sections have been rewritten several times. You and Eileen refused to stop finding new info.
Because of the amount of information we have, it is difficult to know what to exclude. I am also trying to remember where the information was found for citing purposes. I think a month away will allow our typing fingers to rest, but you do realize that even though we are not posting, all of us will probably be still looking. There will surely be an e-mail here and there.
Londonderry
January 4, 2013 at 4:04 pm
I think he meant Wilmington Delaware, down river from Philly.
Eileen Breen
January 4, 2013 at 2:14 pm
I don’t see the names Houston or McGourley on the memorial. Bernie McGarty was listed on the memorial. I believe we changed his name and the change is on ancestry. List for the memorial is on page 69 in the book. When do you want to take a break? We can work on summerizing the info and start back in Feb?
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 3:11 pm
Starting back in February sounds good to me. I may be heading off to England on business for a few weeks anyhow so mid-February sounds about right to me. Maybe Mary will have been able to bash out a first draft of her chapter as well by then.
My sense of it all is that we have done a serious amount of headbanging over this project for what is almost six months now and that we deserve a rest! We have come at it from a wide variety of angles, so we have covered the ground very well. Often times (as you say in the US) we have come up with more questions than answers but that is exactly how it should be. If this were a piece of research, which it is suspiciously like at times, this would be the time to come up with a list of hypotheses to be tested so as to sharpen the thinking. In my mind’s eye, we are not quite but almost half-way there with the project but it is definitely time for a breather. Over the next few weeks I will draft something for you all to look over.
Don MacFarlane
January 10, 2013 at 9:37 am
While taking some time out to clear my head and readjust my azimuth (Vic’s metaphor which I rather like) I came across this quote in the Irish Times from Bill Watson. He reported to them that John Ruddy never grew an upper right first molar, a rare genetic defect, and that when the find was reported in Ireland, two dozen members of the Ruddy family contacted Watson. One of them, William Ruddy, travelled to Pennsylvania to give a DNA sample.
“The body we excavated had a one in a million anomaly,” says Watson. “There are not a million Ruddys and there are not a million people in Donegal, and here’s a Ruddy and he has it and two of his aunts have it and they also have a story in the family of a guy coming over to the US in the 1830s, working on the railroad and vanishing. What are the odds of that? How could it not be him?”
I am not a mathematician but, just for the sake of the math alone, this dental anomaly occurs in one in three thousand people. Neither am I a philosopher but I think this kind of logical gymnastics or sleight of hand (which usually ends with the performer falling flat on his face) is called tautological.
In the meantime, I have found a PhD thesis by Dr Pekka Niemenin on the molecular genetics of hypodontia whch I will scan through. The limited amount of reading I had done before now has the PAX9 gene mutation as the cause of asymptomatic singular hypodontia and this has also been connected to a predisposition to lung cancer. Once I have read the thesis I might have found something that can pin this possible red herring down better.
Don MacFarlane
January 10, 2013 at 9:48 am
http://irishphiladelphia.com/2012/11/the-ghosts-of-duffys-cut-brought-to-life/
‘Maybe, by then John Ruddy will be in his final resting place in Donegal. If it turns out that the bones don’t belong to Ruddy, he’ll still rest in peace in the land where he was born. Irish Center President Vincent Gallagher has donated a gravesite in his family plot in Ardara, County Donegal’.
“He’ll be right next to my grandparents,” said Gallagher.
Don MacFarlane
January 10, 2013 at 8:47 pm
Research has shown that the prevalence of a missing adult maxillary first molar tooth is of the order of 20 in every 50,000 people. This converts to roughly 40 people with that anomaly in the present-day adult population of Donegal. One can reasonably presume if those people came forward they would not all be Ruddys. As the population of Ireland fell by a third between 1832 and today a reasonable projection would be that 60 people in Donegal at the time of Duffy’s Cut had that anomaly. Therefore the chance of the Duffy Cut body being John Ruddy could be as much as 1 in 30 of the male population, not that the chance of it not being Ruddy is 1 in a million as the Watsons portray.
Don MacFarlane
January 11, 2013 at 9:33 am
Thinking it through again, I am more convinced by William Watson’s logic of the coincidence of a) being a young immature male b) on board one of those four ships c) with that particular dental anomaly and d) with a modern-day counterpart relative. On other occasions Watson has got himself tied up in knots with manufactured odds of one-in-a million for the dental anomaly alone but by doing that he has just caused confusion. If he had stuck with his initial argument I think it has a much sounder basis and it is very nearly but still not quite water-tight as there are at least 25 young males on the John Stamp alone that fit that profile except that noone else has come forward.
On balance, I am probably prepared to give it to Watson – that has to be John Ruddy? But I have no idea how it would stack up in a modern court of law. Even with the best expert on probability theory, would that coincidence be enough to send an alleged perpetrator to the electric chair? Either way, I wish Watson would hurry up and have the ‘Ruddy’ bones repatriated but not in Messr Gallagher’s family grave in Ardara. It seems to me that Mr Gallagher, who is in no way connected to the Ruddys, is cashing in on the reflected publicity – when does it ever stop? If the Ruddys are claiming the bones why don’t they take responsibility to have them buried. It sounds a bit like, ‘Hold on, I am missing a tooth too, can I have a freebie trip to the US?”.
It’s too bad about the other sets of bones, however, which now have little or no chance of being repatriated? The lot of them could have been sent to Ireland as a job lot to be buried in Derry City which was their point of departure. That would have been even more poignant? As it is, do the souls belonging to the bones think they are any better off being buried in West Chester where they were allegedly murdered?
Mary Cornell
January 11, 2013 at 5:54 pm
I do not disagree with Professor Watson that the remains are, in all probability, the remains of John Ruddy. What I question is how he arrived at that conclusion. When the dental anomaly was found and the requests came from Ruddys in Northern Ireland, the only thing that was required for positive identification was DNA testing. I would also have given credence to the family story of a relative who came to America in 1832, never to be heard from again. Once again, DNA to prove or discount. Was there effort made to see if the dental anomaly was also a possibility in any of the other workers on the passenger list in order to rule out the others? Saying that it is one-in-a-million and proving it are two different things.
Mary Cornell
January 11, 2013 at 4:58 am
http://malvern.patch.com/articles/more-bones-turn-up-as-researchers-dig-at-duffys-cut
More proof of murder?! There were 141 nails in the coffin, not the usual 50 nails. With each article, the Watson’ s seem to have different ‘ proof’ of murder. At the start of the search, the men died from cholera, then it became murder and then progressed to every find pointing to murder. Chronologically speaking,with each article on the excavations, the plot becomes more sinister. It does not seem to be evidence-based , but based more on imagination than anything else.
As to the nails, more logically, they were afraid of getting cholera.
londonderry
January 4, 2013 at 10:11 am
This is great Mary! This is how I feel myself.
I am continuously amazed why more people don’t feel this way. Our forefathers and mothers were truly remarkable people. Sometimes I feel that we could never live up to their grit, determination and commitment.
My grandfather was a teacher and when I compare the subjects they took against the subjects our kids take today, there is no comparison…..and no one made straight As.
Thanks!!! Happy New Year to all!!!
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 12:36 pm
From ‘It’s Not About the Bike’ by Lance Armstrong.
‘Definition of being human: a characteristic of people as opposed to God or animals or machines is that they are susceptible to weakness and thereby show qualities of being a man [or woman]. Athletes cultivate an aura of invincibility but they can be fearful, weak, defenseless, vulnerable or fallible [like everyone else]‘.
Comment
Lance Armstrong is a hero of mine till someone tells me different.
Waxwing
January 13, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Yes, I spotted that but I don’t think we get Oprah anymore. I have just finished Lance Armstrong’s book, ‘It’s Not About the Bike’ from ten years ago, before any of these doping allegations came to life. The bottom line for me is that if there is any truth to the allegations, Armstrong must have been seriously wrong-headed and fixated on winning, at the expense of all else including threat to his life, and was at a point just short of being mentally ill. Yes, he was given EPO (erythropoietin) as part of his treatment for a life-threatening cancer but it is altogether a different matter for him to take the drug after his cancer treatment was finished. He was seriously scared of his cancer returning and EPO is known to cause cancer cells to accelerate their growth in anyone who is not on anti-cancer treatment. For me it doesn’t add up.
BTW If I have been somewhat AWOL it is partly because an impacted wisdom tooth has pulled me up short. I have also just had an invitation to present in Nice, France, at the EPA (European Psychiatric Association) Conference in April on my favourite work-related topic at present, ‘Self-Identity and Holistic Recovery from Critical Cardiac Events’. I have to get a jazzed-up Powerpoint prepared so I will be flitting in and out.
Mary Cornell
January 4, 2013 at 8:08 am
Songs, Stories, We are Called!
In each family there is one who seems called to find the ancestors. To put flesh on their bones and make them live again, to tell the family story and to feel that somehow they know and approve.
Doing genealogy is not a cold gathering of facts, but instead breathing life into all who have gone before.
We are the storytellers of the tribe. All tribes have one. We have been called as it were, by our genes.
Those who have gone before cry out to us; “Tell our Story!”
So, we do. In finding them, we somehow find ourselves.
How many graves have I stood before now and wept? I have lost count.
How many times have I told the ancestors; “You have a wonderful family. You would be proud of us”?
How many times have I walked up to a grave and felt, somehow, there was love there for me? I cannot say.
It goes beyond just documenting facts.
It goes to who I am, and why do I do the things I do.
It goes to seeing a cemetery about to be lost forever to weeds and indifference and saying; “I can’t let this happen”.
The bones here, are bones of my bones and flesh of my flesh.
It goes to doing something about it.
It goes to pride in what our ancestors were able to accomplish, how they contributed to what we are today.
It goes to respecting their hardships and losses, joy and grief, their never giving in, or giving up,
their resoluteness to go on and build a life for their family.
It goes to deep pride that the fathers fought and some died to make and keep us a nation.
It goes to a deep and immense understanding that they were doing it for us.
It is of equal pride and love that our mothers struggled to give us birth.
Without them, we could not exist and so, we love each one, as far back as we can reach,
that we might be born who we are, that we might remember them.
So we do, with love and caring and scribing each fact of their existence,
because we are they and they are the sum of who we are.
So, as a scribe called, I tell the story of my family.
It is up to that one called in the next generation, to answer the call,
and take my place in the long line of family storytellers.
– Tom Dunn
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 9:51 am
Carleo
“I am constantly finding new information on this site. I started going through some of it tonight because of your e- mail and found this. There are a lot of familiar names, even those that we thought were wrong on the manifests. It cannot be a coincidence that so many of these names that were being ejected from their land also appear on the ships’ manifests. They could no longer earn a living in Ireland whether they were farmers or weavers”.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/civilbillejctments.htm
Donmac
‘Good find and there is plenty meat in that. My reading of the list is that as many of those who were being evicted were Protestant as were Catholics. Ditto, they were being evicted as often for overholding as for non-payment. I was curious how so many of these leases became due for renewal at the same time but I think I found the answer in the Hansard report below*.
I wonder also how many of the court actions arose from agrarian unrest and dissatisfaction with the landlord; how many of the court actions for overholding were successful; how many of the landlords had political aspirations and needed votes; how many of the estates were threatened with being encumbered; how many of the actions were the result of rackrenting? Once I have studied it a bit more, I will run this past Martin Dowling’.
* The Hansard report in 1847 on a Houses of Parliament debate on the subject.
In the late 1820s, an extension was brought in that without a by-your-leave the right to evict was bumped up in Ireland from property valued at £20 per annum rent to more than double at £50 per annum.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1847/jun/16/tenants-ireland-bill-adjourned-debate
Celticknot
“I didn’t know if this could be a resource for County Donegal”.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/kilmacfreeholders.htm.
Donmac
Thanks for that. I think I have come across it before and most likely it would not apply to our waxwings but I will double check. It was a duplicitous ploy by the new post-1800 British Government to deny to the less well-off, which included most Catholics, the right to vote. With the relaxation of the penal laws that year (1829) they did not want a flood of Catholics voting so they bumped up by five times the value of the land owned that qualified a person to vote.
From all of that and if I understand the situation correctly, by dint of political manoeuvring in London and sleight of hand, a situation was evolving in Ireland precisely at the same time that the bottom was falling out of the linen industry – sitting on land in Ireland that was valued at £10 per year rent entitled you to vote; sitting on land of up to £50 per year rent entitled you to be evicted.
Vic would have certain thoughts on this. A near facsimile of the situation had happened with his ancestors 150 years earlier – clearly little in Human Rights had changed for the better in Ireland in the meantime.
Eileen Breen
January 4, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Almost all of 797 people in County Donegal that were listed on the site you put up were on the list for overholding. It was either pay up or get out for these folks.
Timeline:
1813: Catholic relief Bill introduced by Grattan was defeated.
1816: Failure of the potato crop causes famine. Typhus epidemic Aug – Oct
1817-1819 Typhus epidemic kills 50,000 people in Ireland.
1820: Grattan dies.
1821: Potato crop fails Sept – Nov
1822: Fever follows famine in the west of Ireland June -Dec
1826: Act providing for uniform valuation of lands and tenements for the purpose of local taxation. Richard Griffith appointed commissioner of valuation.
1826: Fever epidemic and collapse of the linen industry in Dublin, Belfast, Cork and other towns.
1829: Relief Act: Allows Catholics to enter parliament, belong to any corporation and hold higher offices in state. Catholic Emancipation. Act raising county franchise from 40s. to 10 pound freehold
1831: Tithe War begins
1832: Asiatic Cholera appears in Belfast and Dublin and spread throughout Ireland. Lasts until 1833.
From: The Course Of Irish History
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 6:05 pm
That looks like a pretty ‘neat’ timeline to me and it provides a nice skeleton to work around. Can you slot in some extra dates as well to do with introduction of industrialisation of the linen industry, introduction of the Passenger Act that quartered the cost of travel, encumbering of estates and anything of significance on the US side of things such as the reduction of the price of land in Ohio, any change to indenturing and the slave trade or anything else you can think of? I would also start the timeline in 1796.
Eileen Breen
January 5, 2013 at 1:55 am
The timeline I put up was just for background for what information that was put up on 1/4/13 about the Donegal page you put up. I can look at what you asked and put up a timeline for this. I put a lot up on the Ireland Timeline Family tree on Ancestry but I can try to add more US info.
Don MacFarlane
January 5, 2013 at 9:39 am
M Carleo
I also found this last night. It is a list of renters of Lord Abercorn from 1789. I am not sure how to read the table on annual rent. Does the first column show the present rent and the next column the new rents of the new leases? If it does, some of the rents have tripled.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/abercornrent.htm
Editorial Comment
Some thoughts spring to mind when reading this list:
There would be some connection between not signing a 21 year lease due for renewal and being called to Court for overholding if you still continued to sit on your rented property?
Rents would not be hiked up once every twenty years, they would be the equivalent of index-linked?
The rental would be proportionate to the value of the property and higher for good-quality arable land that a living could be made from?
For the better-quality land, it would be a poor gesture for a young able-bodied son to hike off to America if he were needed at home?
For the poorer-quality land, there would be no living to be made from it and a son might have to emigrate for all to subsist?
If a son disappeared to the likes of Duffy’s Cut (if he came from a poor family) and never was heard of again, that land-tenant might well appear in Court soon after for failure to pay rent?
This kind of table could usefully be cross-checked against other lists for landowners of one acre or more. I think I might have to buy a fresh copy of Martin Dowling’s book.
Don MacFarlane
January 5, 2013 at 9:49 am
Excellent Find from Celticknot
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/things/4280/child_labor/478193
Editorial Comment:
These records beg the question why emigrants would travel to PA from Ireland and other European countries to end up in doorways in Philadelphia. Presumably these were not indentured labourers or they would have had roofs over their heads? Presumably also they would not be recorded in censuses or street directories as they had no address?
Mary Cornell
January 5, 2013 at 6:52 pm
If you cross index the names on the Ejected list with the 1789 and1794 renters lists for the Abercorn estate, the recurring names were:
Armour, Colhoun, Gallagher, Gamble, Lowry, Moore and Park
And if rent was based on the value of the land, Colhoun and Lowry rented the more valuable land sections. All of the enactment petitions for Abercorn were for overholding.
Eileen Breen
January 2, 2013 at 9:44 pm
I’m trying to put in the changes you put in on Duffy Temp site. I’m up to McHenry
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 10:07 pm
I have got a replacement laptop now and I intend to update the spreadsheet soon. If you have made any changes already on it, could you send me any updated version of the spreadsheet so I don’t inadvertently spoil any other work that is not my own.
Don MacFarlane
January 3, 2013 at 1:17 am
Taking a step back from what we have been doing of late, we don’t need to locate the waxwings to prove the Watsons wrong. ‘Too many possibilities’ does the job just as well. I think we have ‘planted the bait’ for whoever wants to respond on Ancestry or wherever, thereby giving the personal angle with accounts such as the McQuillan/Diamond story, plus we have ‘nailed’ various myths, assumptions and misconceptions. All we need to do now is to sit back, consolidate what we have, run some basic statistics from the spreadsheet, and write something up after a suitable lapse of time.
Some basic results that (off the top of my head) we have so far include the ‘discoveries’ that:
Most of our waxwings are Ulster-Scots
Most signed up to the Act of Union
Few were registered on Tithe Applotment
Few were from Derry
Most of the Donegal and Tyrone ones came from within a 15 mile radius of Camus in Tyrone and the Laggan area of Donegal.
Few were to be found in the Philadelphia street directory
A good percentage were possibly to be found in rural PA and OH.
There is some evidence of chains of migration, firstly through Wilmington NC.
Few came from the Linen Triangle.
There is a lot more to come out yet and that is just for starters.
In short, we can afford to take a breather and assimilate what we have found already.
Even with what we have already, there is enough material there for a book.
If Mary tidies up a chapter for ‘The Sea is Wide’ we can start to look to the next phase.
In other words, a month’s break would be in order? This suggestion should not be taken as a sign that the project is wearing thin on me, anything but.
Mary Cornell
January 2, 2013 at 4:08 pm
http://www.infowanted.bc.edu
This is a database of over 40,000+ names of lost Irish immigrants in ads placed in the Boston Pilot by relatives and friends. Only up to the D’ s. None of our waxwings, so far, but the list does throw up a lot of hints to where some of our names might possibly be from originally. Many of the names are quite detailed as to birthplace. There are surnames that match our list that give a birthplace; possible links to our waxwings. The list is also very helpful in seeing migrations by family and county. From the few samplings, emigration from Counties Donegal, Tyrone and Derry occurred earlier than those in the south, as we already knew. The migrations of families out of Ireland can also be seen and some of the relatives knew where their missing relatives traveled to within the States once they arrived. Ex: Philadelphia>Ohio>Wisconsin.
BTW . There are a lot of missing Breens on the list, Eileen.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 4:58 pm
Thanks for that but there may be a typo (?) as the link does not work – at least for me it doesn’t.
Eileen Breen
January 2, 2013 at 5:38 pm
On the Boston College site there were a lot of resources. I think you can type in Boston College and Irish studies you may find it. When I looked at their ancestry class I saw the link Mary put up. I’ll have to check it out for missing Breen’s.
Mary Cornell
January 2, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Did you try typing the URL in the address bar?
One more time-
http://infowanted.bc.edu/
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 6:51 pm
Thanks, it worked this time.
Mary Cornell
January 2, 2013 at 4:00 am
All roads seem to come back to John Ruddy. I found another article on the Watson’ s investigation. This time when the female remains were found, WW said that the remains were most likely those of either Catherine Burns or Elizabeth Devine. According to Watson , this is based on the ‘ disappearance’ of these women and the fact they were on the John Stamp. Mind you, the remains were only recently exhumed at the time and there had been no forensic test conclusions presented. What also bothers me is the comments section at the bottom where a P. Ruddy asks if the remains were definitively those of John Ruddy. Someone answered that yes, it is definitive based on the dental anomaly present in Liam Ruddy, from Inoshowen, who had initiated the Ruddy request, and the same dental anomaly present in the remains. Pretty much a done deal, so they say.
http://www.irishecho.com/?p=63998
No doubt, this is your Patrick Ruddy who is just as amazed as we are that definitives are thrown about without any verifiable proof given. Where is the DNA? There should be DNA results by now. I would have expected that when dealing with an actual family member more care would be taken in giving answers.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 11:23 am
I must ask Patrick Ruddy is he missing his maxillary first molar tooth. If so, that could be as indicative for him as DNA findings. The Watsons have somewhat exagggerated the rarity of such an event as they put it as one in millions, except if running in families, which is nonsense. The true percentage is more like one in 3,000 of the population, which is still highly significant. I don’t begrudge the Watsons making that leap but to go further and conclude the labourers were all off the John Stamp is for me a step too far.
Mary Cornell
January 3, 2013 at 6:32 pm
Googling Ruddy/Templecrone, I found this site. Someone had researched Ruddy. I am not sure of the accuracy as there weren’t any citations as to sources, but for our purposes, here is the list.
DONEGAL
Bryan Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
Daniel Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
*Ellen Ruddy . Templecrone, Rutland Island or Inishmacadurn
James Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
James Ruddy . Clonmany, Urrismenagh
*Patrick Ruddy . Templecrone, Rutland Island or Inishmacadurn
William Ruddy . Inishmacsaint
Here is the site. It has Ruddy’ s in Ireland and the main concentration seems to be in County Mayo. http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/r/a/Steven-Grall/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0058.html
No waxing hits yet on the Boston College site.
Mary Cornell
January 1, 2013 at 6:43 am
HAPPY NEW YEAR, EVERYONE!
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 9:26 am
And to start the New Year off, I have just been contacted by a Pstrick Ruddy (a presumed contender for relative of John Ruddy) who is highly dubious of the Watsons and their agenda, whatever that might be!
He also attached what I presume to be a festive greetings
http://webapp.doctors.org.uk/Session/589163-63ggSHIacaSK8SWpq0xN-aokxazj/MIME/semnet/2816-01-02-B/montagne.jpg
He asked me whether I could confirm that John Ruddy came from Templecrone, presumably where the Watsons have placed him, and according to Griffiths that would be Rutland Island off the West coast of deepest and Gaelic-speaking Donegal.
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 12:59 pm
Off on the Best Foot
A quick summary of where I think we have come from and where we could be going in 2013.
The most significant events of 2013 have been:
The Derry site had been dormant for a long time and almost extinct. Although visitor activity continued apace, very few visitors posted comments and that left me that I was losing interest in the site to such a degree that I was ready to jack it in.
Then Eileen and Mary came along, Eileen with her amazing enthusiasm and Mary with her attention to detail and objectivity. The two of them sparked off each other to such an extent that my own flagging interest in Irish social history of the period began to revive.
After fishing around a wide range of topics the one that stuck was Duffy’s Cut, dug up by Mary although known to me from before, and the rest is history.
Three new pages were add to the site but the FTT page is the one that has lit the torchpaper, with over a thousand posts over six months – most of them from Eileen and no outside interest seemingly apparent but the visits to the site are double that of last year.
I am content to have the Derry site mosey along as a bog-standard genealogy site, which is what by far the most of the visitors are seeking from it. There is a new person about, Debbie Lapeyrouse from Mississippi, who reminds me of Eileen with her enthusiasm and she could very well come on board. We will wait and see as her focus of interest for now is primarily the Scottish Highland that is on my sister-site, http://westernisles.wordpress.com. However, she has other intriguing branches on her family tree, the Blakeneys of Mount Blakeney in Galway, who were central to the colonisation of Ulster at the time of Oliver Cromwell.
We appear regrettably to have lost Winnie Woodhall due to some petty misunderstanding on her part and she could have been a very valuable resource. Ah well. The most recent addition is Vic Barnett, who actually with his PA Leslie inspired and constructed the prototype for this site. I am gratified that Vic sees value in the Duffy’s Cut Inquest which will remain the primary focus of this site in 2013.
As far as the direction the research will take in 2013, for that is what it is, I think we will need Vic’s azimuth to see the project through. Much of the time it seems like a polar expedition in a snowstorm. I have a hope that enough will have been achieved by 2014 to enrich my planned visit to Lancaster County and to the Watsons if I have not fallen out with them by then!
Eileen Breen
January 1, 2013 at 1:02 pm
Awesome! How did you find him? This area seems to be remote area for someone to be recruited from. Why not places closer to the Foyle River? Why did the Watsons feel he was from Templecrone, Rutland Island? Also wouldn’t the language barrier pose a problem for working in US?
Happy New Year Everyone!
Eileen Breen
January 1, 2013 at 1:26 pm
The 1901 and 1911 censuses for Templecrone, Rutland Island, Donegal have no Ruddys listed. There is a Boyle family. I think I read that someone with the last name Boyle came to the service for the Duffy’s Cut memorial. There is a researcher with an email address for Rutland Island listed on the Rutland Island site. You had put him in Malin, Ballyshannon, Donegal. I put both these places under his name on Ancestry. I quickly tried to do a search for Ruddy on Ancestry with residence Rutland Island but so far nothing has come up. There was one listing for a Ruddy in Donegal but not Rutland Island and several in Philadelphia.
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 1:46 pm
Rutland Island is really just a piece of rock, almost a stone’s throw reach from Burtonport and it was finally evacuated of people about fifty years ago. The further-out island, Arranmore, has people still living on it and a ferry goes there (it takes about ten minutes) from Burtonport. I suspect these particular Ruddys all moved away from Rutland Island long ago, perhaps ending up in Arranmore Island, Burtonport or Glenties if they stayed local.
Patrick Ruddy posted a message on my celtdomain.org site which supports the ‘Sea is Wide’ book. I hope to keep up a correspondence with him and winkle more information from him. I suspect he was the person who originally contacted the Watsons and that set the memorial thing going. He expressed disillusionment with the Watsons as there had been talk of a DNA project (he might even have given a sample) as he has heard nothing further from them for two years and he thinks it has all died a death. It was Patrick that mentioned Templecrone, the parish Rutland Island is in, and I presume the name was banded about between them. Watch this space!
Eileen Breen
January 1, 2013 at 2:16 pm
I found a Tithe record for John Ruddy 1828 in Cleaghbeg, Donegal. The map puts it near Glenties. Did you want to write to the researcher for Rutland Island? I can send you her email address or you can find it under the Rutland 1901 and 1911 census?
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 2:23 pm
I think I’ll wait till I hear back from Patrick Ruddy first to see what else he has got but do feel free, if you want, to chase up the Glenties or Rutland end in the meantime. The name was so scarce in Donegal I have to think they were all connected in some way anyhow.
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 3:40 pm
I have checked these censuses and note that almost all the Ruddys are from the Inishowen peninsula, nowhere near Templecrone/Rutland/Glenties.
Eileen Breen
January 3, 2013 at 1:37 pm
On Find-a-Grave:
Someone put up a memorial to John Ruddy and says that the body was returned to Donegal. If Patrick Ruddy writes again can you ask if the body is buried in Templecrone, Rutland Island or somewhere else in Donegal. I’m not sure if they made a memorial to all the laborers at Duffy’s Cut. I haven’t had a chance to look it up yet.
Eileen Breen
January 2, 2013 at 2:24 pm
The article Mary put up doesn’t mention Templecrone. I tried to see if Patrick or Liam Ruddy were on Ancestry and I don’t see their trees under their names. There are a lot of people researching the Ruddy name. Two trees have links to PA but in the 1890s.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Extant Donegal Baptism Records
The only baptismal records for CofI (I) and Presbyterian (P) relevant to our waxwings are from dates as listed below.
CofI
Clondavaddog 1794 – on; Donegal 1808 – on; Drumhome 1719 – on; Fahan Upper 1762 – on; Inver 1805 – on; Killygarvan 1706 – on; Raphoe 1771 – on; Tullyaughnish 1798 – on.
Presbyterian
Donaghmore 1803 – on; Ramelton 1806 – on.
RC
Records are generally unavailable for this period.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 7:01 pm
Extant Tyrone Baptismal Records
The only baptism records available for our waxwings are:
RC
Moy (Clonfeacle) 1814 – on; Clonoe 1810 – on; Camus 1773 – on.
londonderry
December 29, 2012 at 3:20 pm
This is all most interesting to me…..as an aside I don’t know if I’ve ever seen such a group of
Type A personalities. Don’t you folks take a break during the holidays?
One of the mysteries in my Barnett family was John Barnett’s (born 1678 in Derry) occupation. I am pretty sure his father was a wool manufacturer, read weaver, when he moved to Ulster from lowland Scotland. When he emigrated in 1729 with his family he bought a farm in Tinglestown just east of Harrisburg. Your post indicates that it was common for weaver’s to also farm and vice versa. That explains a lot. He probably did both farm and weave. Another mystery is that his oldest son, my GGGGGrandfather moved to Amherst County, Va leaving the Pa farm. This has always puzzled me since he should have been the first in line to inherit the farm. I suspect, without proof, that he didn’t want the tough life that his family had and wanted to strike out on his own. It also could have been a disagreement. It is an example of a family not staying together as they did in Scotland and Ulster. My theory is the chance to own land was too attractive to a land constraint Ulster environment.
I am half way through Duffy’s Cut and enjoying it. Never suspected the many positive and negative facets of the congruence of religions. Seems to me that the Ulster crucible has been one of the world’s greatest examples of turmoil sparked by injustice and insensitivity. I don’t think my Presbyterian /Methodist family experienced the environment confronting the waxwings. I also don’t think they ever disparaged the Catholics albeit they didn’t like the religion. Playing Notre Dame in football was like fighting the Kremlin. On the book, I’m still reserving judgment.
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 12:40 am
The Gender Division Of Labor In The Production Of Textiles in The 18th Century in PA: This was an article about weavers and spinners in Chester County PA in 18th century.
In New England, rural woman were the core of the linen industry. In South Eastern PA the men were at the center of the industry. Male weavers in Chester County, PA retained control over their looms and weaving. They maintained a home based textile industry well into the 18th century. They maintained a balance between skilled craftsmanship and farming. They exported flax seed to Ireland which depended on American flax for its linen production. Ireland used the mature flax seed they produced for fine linen products and the new seed for other linen production needs. The men and woman from one family would work together. Woman worked as spinners and the men wove and finished the cloth. The work was done in the cities rather than the countryside as it was done in New England. Philadelphia was known for it’s fancy goods.
Weavers of fine cloth were also active in agriculture. This established an international need for its products. Weaving was done by hand until water powered mills came into use. In Europe woman were excluded from weaving and finishing in cloth production. This policy continued in Pennsylvania. In early America women in rural communities were responsible for cloth production for commercial and home use. By the 18th century there was a division of labor within the linen industry.
In Pennsylvania, men were artisans who combined their craft with farming. They experienced a lifestyle similar to Europeans. They worked with an extended labor force that utilized free labor, apprentices and paid workers. Records for the weavers are located in Probate records, tax lists that included loom owners, books, newspapers and court records. In Pennsylvania, English, Scots Irish and German immigrants were involved in weaving and the linen industry. The majority of households in PA that owned looms also were involved in farming.
A woman was trained to operate the spinning wheel. She may have purchased her own or inherited the spinning wheel. In turn, she would hand down the spinning wheel to her daughter. This was observed in probate records. Woman did the spinning for commercial needs and for her family. A woman may have her daughter earn the trade of spinning by becoming an indentured servant. In the early 1700s thirty per cent of households had a spinning wheel. By the late 1800s 65% of homes did. Wealthier woman hired free and hired labor to do the spinning in her home then would hire the men to weave and finish the cloth. The woman spent their income on personal items.
The weavers accounted for 13-20% of the taxable income in Chester County, PA. Men outnumbered women in the 17th to 18th centuries in PA. Males spent 50% of their income on personal needs and the rest was used to purchase land. The weavers started out as apprentices with no land or family. His production of cloth was at its highest. By midlife he had a family and he was able to purchase land. He then had to hire an assistant to help with the work. He maintained a supervisory role in the industry. By the end of his career his status increased as he has earned enough to establish his own woollen business with multiple workers. His wife might also have worked with him as a spinner. The majority (40%) of weavers were single, 25% were married without children.
Maybe our weavers are in probate records and wills in Chester County, PA?
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 11:11 am
Great stuff, all of it. Great minds think alike as I have only yesterday purchased ‘The Impact of the Domestic Linen Industry in Ulster’ by W.H. Crawford who did his PhD on this subject. I have it in my hand as I write but I have not got stuck into it yet. Just glancing at a table in the book, the change in the Size of Holdings in the Brownlow Estate in Central Ulster during the latter half of the 1700s went from an even spread in the size of holdings, there was a gradual chopping up of the largest holdings of 100 acres so that by 1800 most holdings were 5-10 acres (30%) and 10-20 acres (20%). There were 400 holdings in total, most of them on leases of at least thirty years.
http://www.craigavonhistoricalsociety.org.uk/rev/clendinningbrownlowfamily.html
Crawford goes on to describe the ‘Linen Triangle’, a name given to the area of Ulster south of Lough Neagh where the finest linens were produced. He includes in that a part of Tyrone which would take in some of our waxwings – the townlands of Clonfeacle or Moy (725,40%), Killyman (204,40%), Clonoe (72,16%), Donaghenry or Stewartstown (268,80%), Tullyniskan (114,50%), Drumglass (76,40%), Donaghmore (540,40%) and Dungannon (160,80%). The first figure in brackets refers to the census number of the religion of the household and the second refers to what percentage of the population of that townland was Protestant. I reckon that not all of our waxwings were Protestant, but about three-quarters were.
Looking at our own demographic breakdown, our waxwing weavers who said they were from Tyrone were – Aiken, Donaghey, Foster, Livingstone, McRory, Potter and Rice. Of these, listed in Griffiths for Clonfeacle were Aiken and McRory; for Killyman were Donaghy and Rice; for Clonoe were Donaghy and McRory; for Donaghenry were Donaghy and McRory; for Tullyniskan was McRory; for Drumglass were Donaghy and McRory; for Donaghmore were Donaghy and McRory; and for Dungannon is part of Drumglass. The inference that comes from all of that is that there were few if any weaver emigrants from parishes in the Linen Triangle. A cross-check of Clinfeacle shows a 40/60 split so that theory will require further testing down the line – mainly because most of the waxwings who were possibly from Clonfeacle were in fact from Donegal or went on the Asia, which did not list county, or were women and juveniles so numbers for testing were insufficient.
However, on balance the picture has face validity at least – weaving families from the Linen Triangle parishes held on tightly to their source of income and did not welcome outsiders to share their largesse. Those not fortunate enough to be born into weaving families with at least five acres had to look abroad. The weavers from Donegal may be similar but Crawford’s book does not cover that county. However, the same intuitive logic would still apply -if the waxwing did not come from the Laggan area of Donegal adjoining Letterkenny he or she would have been kept out. There were few waxwings from Derry which is another puzzle.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 12:55 pm
Donegal Weavers Listed on Spinning Wheel Entitlement.
Only two waxwing names from Donegal were listed as weavers.
Doack – Tully, Claughboyne, Clondavaddog, Raphoe.
Ewing – Donaghmore, Templemore, Inch, Rye, Fahan, Moville, Conwal.
This tends to confirm that the only weavers amongst the emigrants of Summer 1832 were from poorer parts of counties Tyrone and Donegal.
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 1:29 pm
In Ireland did the weavers receive money from the government to maintain their weaving business. In PA they were taxed on their income.
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 1:48 pm
You said that the linen triangle produced the finest linens. The Farmers in PA sent American flax to Ireland not for the finest grade of linen but one step down from that. So maybe poorer weavers who were edged out of the finest linen trade could still weave other grades of linen. It probably was a competitive business.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Yes. I read in one of my recent sources that the poorer types of fabric made in Ireland were sent back to the US to make clothes for the slaves on the plantations. I think there were hierarchies of weavers and some made more money than others. It still doesn’t take away from the emerging fact, if it is the case, that those weavers in the Linen Triangle did not by and large emigrate to the US. It will require some more digging to verify what could prove to be a novel and as yet unpublished finding.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 3:01 pm
I don’t know the ins and outs of the economics yet but it has been extensively looked at by Marilyn Cohen in her book, ‘The Dynamics of Capitalism in the Irish Linen Industry’ (2003). It is rather an expensive volume so for now I will have to be content with what I have, coupled with
http://www.academia.edu/1583733/The_Irish_Scottish_and_Flemish_Linen_Industries_During_the_Long_Eighteenth_Century
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 12:59 pm
That’s interesting our waxwing’s were not from the linen triangle. I forgot to put in that The researcher who did the article about weavers in Philadelphia found that the weavers in their younger years said they were weavers but later in life after their families had grown and they established their own woolen business they called themselves farmers. In their later years they did less weaving and hired young men to work for him. It would be interesting to see if the farmers were also weavers in their early lives and to see if they grew flax. The Presbyterians wanted smaller land holdings. A few of the records showed their property was worth $800.00 in early years and%1500.00 in their later years. This may fit that they were weavers who depended on farming and their income improved as they established their business.
Eileen Breen
December 31, 2012 at 10:40 pm
From: Enterprising Elite And The Boston Associates And The World They Made: (mills in New England) The farmers daughters would come to the cities to work for the mills that the Boston Associates owned. They were required to have high moral statndards and to go to church each week. They lived in boarding houses and matron would supervise them in the house. They were paid better than most professions for woman and the work was consistent throughout the year unlike teaching and domestic service. The position provided them with a better status than domestic service and they were paid in cash which was a relatively new way of paying employees. Woman were required to save their money to help pay for expenses at home, save for a dowry or a brother’s education. They worked 12 hours per day, six days per week in poor conditions. Breaks were rigid and supervised. The loud sounds of the machinery was constant. Workers would be watched for signs that they were not able to keep up with the production and would be let go thus no longer be able to earn a living. Mill owners actively recruited woman a s a source of cheap labor for the mills. Woman were seen as a temporary employees that would stay until they save enough money then would leave. Waiting lists were long. Woman were seen as part of the machinery of the mill. The coarser lesser grades of cloth was more desirable than fancy linens. Mill owners at first could not sell an improved higher grade of cloth. They sold it to an auctioneer who sold it at 30 cents per yard and the mill owner earned a one percent commission from the sale for each yard sold. Mill owners recruited whole families from farming communities with several small children to work in the mills. They would be paid on store credit in the mills. In order to keep peace in the mills the mill owners knew they had to start to pay woman a higher rate or they would find opportunities elsewhere or go to work in southern states where the wages were higher.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 4:09 pm
What a Lazy Lot?
‘Weaver households had a higher preference for leisure and with the arrival of the linen trade they were able to meet their consumption needs with less effort. Their surplus earnings also meant they could enter marriages which they must otherwise have postponed and which led to population growth. They had low education and narrow horizons as they had already reached their ‘upper bound’. Others contributed the population growth, not to earlier marriage, but to absence of push factors compelling migration’ and a decline in infant mortality’.
Strangely, this quote from Jane Gray’s book on the linen industry refers not to Irish folk but to their competitors in Flanders in Belgium. Whether lazy and primitive or not, something the Irish and the Belgians were alleged to have in common, both places produced the finest linen, streets ahead of anywhere else.
Don MacFarlane
December 30, 2012 at 12:40 am
Further quotes from Jane Gray
‘A shortfall of female labour at the end of the eighteenth century led to quicker industrialization in Ireland’.
‘Despite wages that were amongst the lowest in Europe, the process of industrialization in Ireland was confined to a small enclave’.
‘Mokyr noted that Ireland was the only country in Europe to experience large-scale outmigration in the first half of the nineteenth century’.
‘During the first half of the eighteenth century, Irish linen increasingly substituted for European imports on the English market’.
‘Potato cultivation led to narrower birth intervals because women spent less time breast – feeding’.
‘Women and children were unemployed and they occupied themselves in poorly remunerated tasks because they had nothing better to do’.
‘The wage-gap between skilled and unskilled labour was markedly smaller in Scotland than it was in Ireland where it increased even further in the early nineteenth century’.
‘Linen weavers’ wages were much lower than for other skilled craftsmen. Irish weavers earned 66% of other craftsmen whereas Scottish weavers earned 80%’.
‘Irish weavers earnes 1s 5d per day for fine linen and 1s 2d for course linen in the 1770s, compared to 1s 9d for masons and carpenters. Thirty years later, weavers earned little more although they could earn up to 2s 6d per day when trade was brisk’.
‘During the last quarter of the eighteenth century, increase in demand for coarser linens drew men into the business with less training. Duing this period, outlying markets had a greater share of growth in input than the Linen Triangle’.
‘In the linen industry, because of the technological bottleneck, men were outnumbered by women [who earned less than half as much] by a factor of four to one’.
‘A weaving household of four adult women to spin and one adult male to weave earned less than two unskilled labourers’.
Table 2 (page 50)
In the same fifty year period spanning the second half of the eighteenth century, in Scotland and Flanders the population increased by 50%. In Ireland it doubled, producing a surplus population of 2 million people.
Conclusion
The arithmetic on page 25 of the paper by Prof Jane Gray of Maynooth University draws one to a shocking conclusion. Women spinners (spinsters) in Ireland were little better than slave labour who worked for nothing in a cottage industry that kept the Irish Linen industry afloat. The exploitation was compounded and perpetuated by the Spinning Wheel Premiums which entitled a weaving family to have four spinning wheels and a loom.
This offer was a mirage of hope for families living on a potato-line (instead of a breadline) as merchants before long refused to ‘put out’ their flax for spinning as it robbed them of profit, hence a drive towards emigration for young unmarried women. Meanwhile, women who were already married became burdened with small families as working in the potato fields was not conducive to the natural contraceptive that was breastfeeding.
Commentary: This Professor Gray could be a very useful resource to call upon as she knows her stuff and could be a kindred spirit as she comes from Indiana.
Don MacFarlane
December 30, 2012 at 4:47 pm
Weaver Families
Ship John Stamp
Donegal
Doak – John (19) and Amelia (17).
Ewing – Robert (18) and John (16).
Skelton – Thomas (22) and Robert (20).
Tyrone
McRory – James (18), Heather (18), Edward (17).
Anderson – Mary (22) and Miriam (21).
Derry
Laughlin – Joseph (24) and Jane (24)
McConnell – William (21) and Robert (18).
Ship Asia
Henderson – David (30), Mary (26) and Jane.
Gallagher – William (30), Mary (30) and Eliza.
Culbertson – Letitia (21) and John (20).
Shields – William (21) and Mary (21).
Bradley – Michael (25), Peter (22) and Patrick (21).
Ship Ontario
Aiken family.
Ship Prudence
None
Commentary.
There are very few sibling couples or large family units listed as weavers who travelled to PA that summer but plenty of young weaver bachelors. Unless some of the young females registered as spinsters are from weaver families, there is no indication of poverty traps in weaving families having been the reason for emigration.
Eileen Breen
December 30, 2012 at 11:43 pm
It’s sad to think the weavers and spinners worked hard but got nothing in return. Perhaps that’s why they weren’t motivated to produce more. I had a GG grandfather from Alsace that came here to work as a weaver. I always thought he had a skill. Someone decided that weavers and spinners were unskilled to keep the costs of labor down and to boost their profits. When we went to Donegal we saw the weaver in the shop working. It definitely took skill to produce the fabric he made.
Don MacFarlane
December 31, 2012 at 12:12 am
Statistical Notes from Bandon in County Cork 1844
There were 126 schools with almost five thousand pupils for a population of 80-odd thousand. One in six people could read and write, three times as many could neither read nor write, and the rest could read only, meaning that half the people could read.
One family in three lived in mud cabins of one room; one in three lived in mud cottages of more than one room and with a window; one quarter of families lived in farm houses of solid construction; and the rest (1 in 30) lived in a superior class of house.
One in 50 were farmers who had more than five acres; 60 per cent of adult males were labourers; and one in three adults of working age had stable employment.
Don MacFarlane
December 31, 2012 at 12:17 am
Kindred Spirits
‘A well remembered donation to famine relief was that made by the Choctaw tribe of American Indians who in 1847 sent a donation of $710, the equivalent of more than $100,000 today. They had a special affinity with the hungry and those who had lost their homes, since it was only 16 years since their tribe had been made homeless and walked the “Trail of Tears” from Oklahoma to Mississippi, along which many of them died.
This extraordinary gift from a people who were themselves impoverished has never been forgotten. In 1997, the 150th anniversary of that generous gesture, a group of Irish people walked alongside members of the Chokraw Nation along the 500 mile Trail of Tears in reverse, back to the Choctaw homeland’
http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/food-history/the-irish-potato-famine-1846-1850/
Eileen Breen
December 30, 2012 at 2:00 pm
Perhaps producing the finest linen they could get a high wage for it. So those receiving larger wages didn’t need to work as much large wages as they produced smaller amounts of higher quality qoods. I don’t think they were lazy. I think they produced what they needed to maintain their life style, to establish a business plan for their children’s future and to enjoy the good life!
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Tied to the Spinning Wheel
According to Almquist and others, hand-spinning of linen was correlated with getting married younger and having larger families. Horrible thought, but most of these young women on these ships were already past the age of getting married? Their ages were 25, 22, 26, 22, 22, 26, 20, 22, 20, 24, 26, 20, 26, 20, 20, 26, 24, 22,18, 20, 22, 20, 24, 18, 24, 18, 21.
Eileen Breen
December 31, 2012 at 12:56 pm
I’m still trying to locate probate and land records for our weavers / farmers. I couldn’t find it on Ancestry. Perhaps Pennsylvania.gov. BTW: The comment reply box is not at the end of this page as it usually is
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 5:32 am
I looked at family groups from the Ontario. I may have found the Ryan family.
Christopher b 1896 and Mary b 1800 from Rossgier, Donegal and their children: Eleanor “Ellen”, b 1821 Fanny “Frances” b 1823, Nancy b 1825, Mary b 1827 and Christopher H. b 1831.
1860 census: Urbana, Champaign, OH lists: Christopher, Mary, Fanny, Christopher (sailor). 1850 census lists just Mary and Christopher (Parents). Family is not listed in 1870 or 1880 census in OH. 1840 census doesn’t list people’s names except for Christopher Ryan: 1 male: age 10-14, 1 male: 40-49, 1 female: 15-19, 1 female 30-39 and 1 female; 50-59. There is a 86 yr old Fanny Ryan listed with Ryans on one of the censuses. Don’t know the relationship.
Fanny “Francis” Married a George Ketchum. Her obit from Find a Grave Ohio (Urbana Newspaper Abstract 3 Apr 1890) says the parents are Mary and Christopher Ryan who came to Urbana, Champaign, OH from Londonderry, Ireland. Frances died at her sister’s home in NY, her sister being “Ellen”, or Eleanor Columba Anderson, who was married to William Marshall Anderson (there is a profile on him from family trees that’s interesting). Her children are listed under her profile.
Sister, Anna Ryan, married Admiral Febiger (he has a profile from family trees and he was prominent in the Civil War). She’s not on the Ontario* I can’t find anything on sister: Nancy Ryan
Christopher H. Ryan was a sailor in 1860 census. I found a few Civil war records but I’m not sure if they belong to him. Next of kin is William Ryan. The only William we have is William Marshall Anderson.
The tree is on Ancestry under the Ontario.
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 5:39 am
I looked at families A-R so far on the Ontario. I went through family groups on the John Stamp and Prudence 2x and the updates are already listed. Mary and you did all the ships as well. So after the Ontario is done I think we have all been through all the ships’ names a few times. I didn’t get to put up all the changes for the place names from 2 weeks ago.
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 9:51 am
Well done with that. Maybe it was worthwhile going to the trouble to find out what Prossgear really meant?
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 10:34 am
BTW There is no Ryan household listed in Griffiths for Rossgeir which is in the Parish of Clonleigh but there is one Ryan household, head of household called Patrick, in Birdstown next door, also in Clonleigh. So why would they say Rossgeir? Maybe their house was tumbled but I would say it is the same lot of folks and Patrick was left behind.
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Maybe Rossgier is the next largest townland. maybe if they said a smaller townland the person taking the names down wouldn’t know where it was. When we tell someone what city I’m from they may not know it but if I say the largest city near me then they may know about where it is! We can keep checking the hints on the trees maybe something else will pop up.
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 3:35 pm
FFT: From 50 States.com When states received their statehood
1787-1796: 16 states: DE, *PA, NJ, GA, CT, MA, MD, SC, NH, VA, *NY (1 record), NC, RI, VT, KY, TN
1803-1896: *OH, LA, IN, MI, *IL, AL, ME, AK, MI, FL, TX, Iowa, WV, CA, MN, *Missouri, OR, KN, NV, NE, CO, ND, SD, MT, WA, WY, UT
1907-1959: OK, NM, AZ, AL, Hawaii
* states are were we have records for our families on the manifests.
I read the rail roads by 1840′s were in 11 states. The story for the Pennsylvania Port may be that people moved at least twice by covered wagon. and by 1880′s by immigrant train or rail car. Also the choice seems to be a personal one- economics: (jobs, land) and maybe to stay w/ their church. Prior to 1780′s the emigration seems to be for religious reasons: (5 waves of emigration and the Presbyterian church that also expanded west.)
In PA our people seem to spread west for the land for farming. Cheaper land and land grants were made land available in western states in 1800′s. Maybe our story could group together some of our farmers, their move from PA to OH, Illinois, Missouri (temporarily during Civil War) and Wisconsin. Later generations moved to: Texas, Colorado and Wyoming, California and Nevada.
We have records for Presbyterian, RC faiths in 18th and 19th centuries.
The records for the laborers seem to have too many variables. Single names still seem to be more difficult to find. Family groups seem to be easier to find. The farmers appear in census records seem to be easier to find. The weavers also have been difficult to find ( I don’t think we found any weavers or laborers). Perhaps weavers and laborers rented instead of owned. They should have been in census records. It would be interesting to see if laborers and weavers were more likely to be single or married and if they owned or rented property.
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 10:02 pm
From the lists of names per parish for Tyrone and Donegal, the names that appear infrequently or not at all are: Brisland (Donegal – Innishkeel, Clonmany or Killybegs), Dermott (Donegal), Diver (Donegal), Doak (Donegal – Clondavaddog, Taughboyne or Raphoe), Fergie (Belfast), Carland (Donegal – Clonleigh), Gilfillan (Derry – Clondermot or Faughanvale), Harold (Donegal – Conwal or Raphoe), Hastings (Donegal), Hay (Tyrone – Urney or Bodoney Upper), McAnaney (Tyrone – Ardstraw, Bodoney Upper or Capagh), McDonagh (Donegal), McHenry (Antrim), McMichael (Tyrone – Aghaloo or Bodoney), Menagh (Down or Derry), Nee (Donegal – Leck), Potter (Tyrone), Risk (Derry – Clondermot), Ruddy (Donegal), Scallan (Tyrone – Donacavey, Termonmaguirk or Drumragh), Sherwood (Derry – Templemore), Sterling (Antrim).
That adds up to just 22 names or about 15% of the total and these are super-waxwings. These names if spotted are much more likely to be the real deal and not cases of mistaken identity. The downside is that because they are rarer they are less likely to be spotted. Where only county is mentioned that means that nonetheless the name is sufficiently rare for that to be enough. I mean to concentrate my efforts on these two dozen names only for the time being.
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 11:42 pm
Dermott Genealogy Forum
http://genforum.genealogy.com/dermott/
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 11:45 pm
Diver Genealogy Forum
http://genforum.genealogy.com/divers/index.html#1
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 11:57 pm
Gilfillans of Derry
http://www.gilfillanfamily.com/gilfill1.htm
londonderry
December 29, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Dermott—-this is especially interesting to me. My grandfather and his family lived in Dermott Arkansas in Chicot County. The county furthest South East next to the Mississippi River, and on a railline. When I researched the name Dermott, I found that the town was named for a farmer named McDermott who bought a plantation in the rich river bottom. This brought me to a site to research how Scottish names were generated and I found that a Gaelic tradition ofth used was to add a Mc in front to indicate, “son of”. So McDonald indicates the son of Donald. There are many other protocols on this site but I have this question. Was there a norm when the Mc was dropped or not. Was it in America, Ulster, when leaving Scotland or random? Pardon the rulebased preciseness and neatness that us engineers always look for in the world. But it does raise the question, could any of the waxwings have similar name changes?
The very interesting site is: http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?560
I am learning a lot from this voyage that you guys are taking!!!!!
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 12:21 am
What It’s All About
A lovely couple from Oklahoma City seeking their Ulster-Scots Ancestors
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LlY1T7RmutA&feature=relmfu#/watch?v=LlY1T7RmutA&feature=relmfu
Mary Cornell
December 29, 2012 at 8:17 am
Response to your super waxwings-
Super Super Waxwings in the US Census 1860-1920
Male or female from Ireland w/following names-
Fergie (1)
Brisland (24)
McAnaney (37)
Menagh (40)
Risk (67)
The name McMichael is listed 252 times, but 50% are in Philadelphia.
Doak is listed 208 times.
Most numerous is Hastings (1245)
Mary Cornell
December 29, 2012 at 6:18 am
Have my computer working well enough to use. Finally able to post a comment on the Thompsons. I found another Isabella Thompson along with her husband, Bery(?) and children who came to Philadelphia in 1830 on the Margaret Miller. She also had children named John and Alexander. Could these be the ones that you were finding? I found it odd that there were two Isabella Thompsons. The ages are completely different so they appear to be two different women.
I will make a couple more passes on the Ontario to see if anything else shows up.
I found several very interesting works by Dennis Clark who spent 30+ years writing on the Irish in Philadelphia and is considered a foremost expert on the subject. Much like Don, he was also an expert in social and urban dynamics and how they are affected by a culture. He spent many years in urban development in Philadelphia and he was a strong believer in knowledge and understanding of one’s culture and how it plays out in the urban sphere.
None of his writings are available online, but you can read several excerpts through Google/Amazon books. I was a little disappointed in his earlier writings as I was expecting much more researched and detailed writings, but the later works seem to make up for that. Sadly, he died several years ago. He would have been an excellent source for some of our unanswered questions.
maccarleo
December 26, 2012 at 5:49 pm
Computor is down. Don’s computor is a bad influence. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas.
maccarleo
December 26, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Computer is down. Don’s computer is a bad influence. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas.
Don MacFarlane
December 26, 2012 at 10:06 am
Hi Vic. If you mean what photo was that on the Header, I haven’t a clue. It was just chosen at random from the WordPress gallery of themes. Sorry to disappoint. I thought it was time to give a fresh look to the site and I coldn’t access my own Ulster photo gallery as my computer is broken. However, I have reverted to an earlier frontispiece for the site as it has restored certain functionalities that the more experimental themes could not deliver.
A review of the activity for 2012 on the site shows:
Over 26,000 ‘hits’, which is double that of last year and four times as much as when the site was set up five years ago. That translates to roughly nine thousand visitors.
The site still retains its name for now of Genweb but in fact more than 90 per cent of the activity comes from Google searches.
A pie chart per country would show – 50% of visitors are from the US; 20% are from the UK; 10% are from British Commonwealth countries; 3% are from Ireland; and the rest are random.
Favourite clicks are for: billmacafee.com; familysearch.org; and census.nationalarchives.ie. This suggests that the majority of visitors are armchair genealogists and that they have much less interest in the social commentary and social history themes that have been picked up by FTT this year. Either that or they are satisfied with the pages which have enough meat in them, without any need to explore further. This is somewhat at odds with the poll results that show that over 56% of visitors to the site claim to be interested in history as well as ancestry.
Irrespective of all of the above, I am really pleased that our small team have formed and that they have begun to drill down into the social issues of the period which impacted upon ancestors in Ireland around the times of the Famines. Living in the place, it has opened my eyes and I look around me with a fresh pair of eyes at places that I barely noticed before.
Eileen Breen
December 24, 2012 at 1:09 am
I’m looking at the Prudence. So far nothings coming up for names A-L. The Leitch family has a tree I saw but I can’t access it. When I googled Leitch family, Tyrone: there was a tree from Ardstraw, Tyrone. I was wondering if this is the one you found?
Don MacFarlane
December 24, 2012 at 4:38 am
Unless I am mistaken, the only Tyrone waxwings that could have travelled on the Prudence were Barr (NOT Clogher or Aghaloo), Birney (NOT Clogher), Crawford (Donacavey), Deery, Hay (Urney or Bodoney), Keys (Donaghedy or Donacavey), Leitch (NOT Ardstraw) or Patrick (Ardstraw). The parishes they are most likely not from are in the brackets if it says NOT, otherwise the parish is correct. I say this because the website AskaboutIreland lists these surnames from those parishes as landlords if I have put NOT, so unlikely to be travelling as labourers or farmhands. I have used the Failtromhat website most for Griffiths but I have recently discovered this other website which has the advantage of listing sitting tenants as well as heads of household. Failteromhat has the advantage of listing ‘all’ names within a parish but is not exhaustive as it does not include non-householders as far as I know. Hence Askabout more closely resembles a census.
Tenants listed for these landlords were:
Barr – various, including McCann, McNally etc.
Birney – over 20 in number at various addresses, including Wilsons, Cosgrave, Stewart etc.
Leitch – 15 in number in Carncorran Glebe (Castlederg), perhaps all farmhands and servants, including Gallon, McSorley, Corcoran etc.
This Askabout site puts a rather different perspective on things. Clearly, there are tiers of prosperity at work here with some folks able to employ significant numbers of others as helps and farmhands. It may be on closer scrutiny that my suspicions will prove correct, that our ‘farmer’ waxwings were really farmhands and will be listed on this site as such. In any event, I feel I am closing in on these waxwings bit by bit, at least as far as their parishes of origin in Ireland. I have a bit to go yet with the ‘triangulation’ method but I am getting there.
Eileen Breen
December 24, 2012 at 9:18 pm
I think I found the Thompson family from the Prudence. Two brothers lived in Wisconsin and there are several trees on Ancestry, including:jamiemorrison 1974. The two brothers in Wisconsin, William Henry and John, were farmers and owned land in Wrightstown, Brown, Wisconsin. another brother, Alexander, lived in Ontario, Canada.
I am still working out the details. They were RC. Brother John died in Morristown, Brown, WI, and there is a tombstone photo with documents (some are upside down – just as they were on Ancestry)
Eileen Breen
December 25, 2012 at 4:30 am
Some things seem ok with this family [some not]. The Philadelphia part on the ship matches with the Wisconsin census but there are two questions so far. Several family members have Isabella as having a husband, Edward, but there is no Edward Thompson on the Prudence. Maybe he came over earlier. Also, two sons lived in WI but Isabella is listed as a spinster on the ship with several children. I can’t find a death date for Isabella. Isabella had a son or nephew called Alexander and several people have him living in Canada. Edward Thompson lived in Canada but the kids’ names don’t match the ship manifest or the Wisconsin census. On his death certificate Edward is Presbyterian but his brother William H. Thompson is RC. Also on the ship William is a laborer but on the Wisconsin census he is a farmer. If this turns out to be correct we will need to cross-check all our laborers as farmers. I think this suggestion was proposed by Mary and Don.
Don MacFarlane
December 25, 2012 at 8:15 am
This case throws up several issues, quite apart from the two raised so far which are a) how to link up spouses that may have travelled separately b) how to square different religions within the same family. Normally those two things alone, if not satisfactorily accounted for, would disqualify the family under scrutiny from further consideration. However, if other things add up (whatever these ‘other things’ might be) then the family might not be so easy to dismiss. But there would be a need to specify what these ‘other things’ could be that can compensate for what seems to be an obvious mismatch (duly weighted as well probably, as well as specified).
Bigger issues, in the sense that they are about the groups as a whole rather than individual cases, have to do with the method of sampling. Quota sampling is problematic and if it is to be done it would have to be done without bias. If a name is to be discarded in favour of a name for which information has come to light, the discarded name would have to be recorded to ensure ‘like for like’. Secondly, if we are keeping to the waxwing method then the Thompsons do not qualify as the name is very common, as well as very dispersed throughout Tyrone where this family came from, and the potential for misidentification is correspondingly greater. Otherwise, there is no way of ‘disproving’ the Watson theory about Duffys Cut?
In a nutshell, if we have on the one hand sixty of the Watson names that are untraceable, and on the other hand our sixty names that are traceable but are substituted for sixty of ours that were untraceable, then that proves nothing and it bolsters the Watson case rather than weakens it. Ideally, if we had a position of trust with the Watsons, we would be keeping in mind the search protocol that they used. Then, using it as well as our own methods, for us to be drawing blanks (in whatever number of cases) would be perfectly OK. That is called replication and it is a cornerstone of research.
As far as the first issues that have been raised, and if this family is correctly identified as coming off the Prudence, I would assume that the matriarch of the family is RC. Otherwise why would the patriarch change religion from Presbyterian to RC? The travelling ahead assumption, which does make sense, is reasonable as the patriarch would probably wish to check out the lie of the land before sending for his family. The hope for us would then be that the patriarch would have appeared in an earlier shipping list on Ancestry?
I’m away now to baste that turkey!
Don MacFarlane
December 25, 2012 at 9:37 am
‘Elusive Dreams’, Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood.
Thinking of the Thompsons who travelled a thousand miles from Philadelphia to Wisconsin:
I followed you to Texas
I followed you to Utah
We didn’t find it there
So we moved on
To a small farm in Nebraska
To a gold mine in Alaska
We didn’t find it there
So we moved on
And now we’ve left Alaska
Because there was no goldmine
But this time only two of us move on
And now we just have each other
And a little memory to cling to
And still you won’t let me go on alone
I know you’re tired of following
My elusive dreams and schemes
For they’re only fleeting things
My elusive dreams
Eileen Breen
December 26, 2012 at 1:05 pm
From the Prudence on the Thompson family:
Isabella Thompson is the matriarch even though the ship manifest says she is a spinster. Perhaps her husband died or her husband came before her as you suggested and Iam Still looking for death records for her. I’m not sure who the father is of James (1814), John (1820), Rebecca (1818), Alexander (1822) and William (1816). There is a Matilda (1815) listed on the family tree but not on the manifest.
The eldest son William Henry Thompson (1813) d 22 Feb 1890 and is buried in St Paul’s RC Cemetery. His wife Frances was from France and is buried in St Mary’s RC Cemetery. Their children, Mary and Samuel, are buried in St Paul’s and I am still working on finding records for their other children.
William Henry and John were living next to each other and had farms in Morrison, Brown, WI. William farm was worth $800.00 and John’s farm was worth $1000.00. There are a few pictures and records. Isabella’s family matches several family trees on Ancestry and the ship manifest from the Prudence. The only records that I’m not sure are correct are the Canadian records.
Eileen Breen
December 27, 2012 at 2:11 am
The Thompson tree is growing. I don’t see a story here except one part of the family traveled from Wisconsin to Wyoming in a covered wagon for 1 month. Then another part of the family took an immigrant train to Wyoming and then the rest of the family came on a passenger train. William Thompson was a traveling salesman who had a cart pulled by donkeys. He sold Ward products, spices, and household products door to door. I think the family is catholic. I think there’s a few errors in other people’s trees. They have 2 sons (Alexander and John) emigrating to Canada but I found records for John in Wisconsin (if this is the correct family). All the trees seem to have the same names. I think it’s time to move on…
Eileen Breen
December 27, 2012 at 10:20 pm
“The opposite of history is not myth. The opposite of history is forgetfulness”
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 9:40 am
Yes, and I had a complete blind spot with regards to history when I was at school. I couldn’t see the point of it and I wanted to do Geography instead! I ended up doing neither and when my Mum would not allow me to do technical subjects I did scientific subjects instead. There must be a moral in there somewhere?
BTW I have been missing this last few days as I have been helping a lady from Mississippi to find her Scottish Highland ancestors. We are still following that trail but I have found out something she did not know in the meanwhile. Three men on the other side of her family tree were colonels in Oliver Cromwell’s army in Ireland. Not does she not have the Irish blood in her family that she took some pride in, her ancestral family were colonists and land-robbers. Be careful what you look for, you may find it?
I will get back on track with the Waxwings project but I feel a bit hamstrung by my computer having broken down. I can do Google and other searches but that is the height of it. I would like to enter what we have on the spreadsheet and start analysing but that has to be on hold. I have almost finished with listing per parish the names of the waxwings in each. That should mean for one thing not continuously having to visit Griffiths and should make any triangulation easier.
maccarleo
December 27, 2012 at 4:48 am
I have been wondering about the word spinster. Could it simply mean woman or female? Could some of these women been with their husbands, not their brothers as we have assumed?
Don MacFarlane
December 27, 2012 at 8:37 am
I wondered the same thing, only I thought it might just mean the female equivalent of weaver. The woman of the house spun the flax on her spinning wheel (hence spinster) and the man as weaver wove it on his loom if he had one, otherwise the product of the woman’s labours got sent off to the bleach green. That was my theory.
Eileen Breen
December 27, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Spinster usually means an unmarried woman or maybe unchaparoned. I once saw it in a medical record and was appalled! I thought no one better call me that! In the case of the Thompson’s: Isabelle was older than this group of children. I thought she may be an aunt who was unmarried or the mother who was widowed or who was meeting her husband. I never found the husband in Philadelphia or Wisconsin. Several trees had an Edward Thompson and two sons living in Canada but this didn’t make sense. I found records for one son they said lived in Canada but records said he was in Wisconsin. Also the records had the wrong place of birth for the son. I’m still trying to figure out the sons in the family.
Eileen Breen
December 23, 2012 at 1:53 am
The Irish Times site has a great interactive program on emigration, ‘Irish Emigration: Welcome Emigration Isle. 200 Years Of Irish Emigrants Through The Lives Of Real Emigrants’. It covers the Who, What, When, Where and Why of emigration and the sights and sounds of emigration from the 1800s to the present day.
From the site: In 1841-51, 34% were literate but the Registrar General who recorded literacy rates during the census years in Ireland recorded a higher rate for males in 1841 at 67.7%.
87% of emigrants had families of more than eight children. The average age of emigration was 17-29. Emigrants were mostly farmers. in Munster, 290,970 people emigrated; in Leinster, 332,936; in Ulster, 171,287; and in Connaught, 245,624.
In 1788, transportation to Australia was for mostly minor crimes. A boy aged 12 was sent there for stealing a silver spoon. Woman were transported for stealing petty items. The average stay in Australia was 62 years. Over 60,000 emigrated to North America to participate in the American Revolution.
Famine in 1841 killed 400,000 in Ireland. Gold was found in Australia and the Irish in Australia encouraged relatives in Ireland to emigrate. As a result of over-population in western rural Ireland, the Poor Irish Law Boards funded 100,000 people to go to Australia as long as they were good workers. Prior to this the 10-15 pound ticket to Australia was cost-prohibitive.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 6:02 am
One wonders about the accuracy of these statistics. If you add them together, they claim that almost ninety percent of the emigrants had eight children before they were thirty years old? If these figures are correct you begin to understand why the likes of the infamous Trevelyan blamed the Irish for their own troubles by bringing such large families into the world when life was so precarious. Angus MacMillan, who contributed to ‘The Sea is Wide’, put it quite neatly about the Scottish Highlands) where circumstances were similar but on a lesser scale):
” As for the emigrants, even now and knowing the hardships and tragedies to which they were exposed, it is not possible to judge where advantage may have lain between an island where one family could lose ten of eleven children in childhood, or in risking all and paying the price”.
Eileen Breen
December 23, 2012 at 9:19 pm
I’m not sure I understand the large family concept except that I think that when they lost a child they felt a strong need to replace that loss with another child. Also to carry on the family name. It could have also been the custom in which clans had large families and shared their children with other members of the clan. That way the work on the farms could be done more easily. My own G-G grandmother had 10 children in 10 years. 6 died before adulthood. The RC Church played a major role in encouraging large families to continue spreading Catholicism all over the globe. I don’t think they thought about the implications of having a family they couldn’t provide for.
Eileen Breen
December 22, 2012 at 10:37 am
The question put forth by the Watson’s that the laborers were not educated bothered me.
The English Government in the early 1800s became concerned over the rise in Catholicism in Ireland. During the 1800s, education was seen as social emancipation for the Irish people during a time of political and social unrest in Ireland. Irish Catholics were subjected to Penal Laws which made education for the Irish Catholics illegal. Education was seen by the English Government as an agent for social control. The Establishment used censorship, taxation and had complete control over the printing and approval of which subjects were taught in the schools.
Education was seen as “raising expectations” and made one “receptive to radical subversive literature.” The Government felt that providing simple education would allow the English Government to have control over Ireland socially. Further it was seen as a cost-control measure to reduce crime and the cost of rehabilitation of adults and children in workhouses. The Church Of England used education to win over the Irish working class by limiting the use of the Irish language, taking away its customs and by controlling the subjects that were taught. This did not settle well with the majority of the Irish people. Hedge schools were opened.
Prior to hedge schools being established, the Government provided money for educational materials and school buildings. Private education during the Penal Law period was supported by the Irish chiefs until they were driven out of Ireland in the 17th century. Education for Catholics were illegal. School masters could be transported to Barbados if caught teaching Catholic children. Schools flourished during periods when the laws against Catholics were relaxed and closed during the height of the restrictions against Catholics. In 1812, the “Irish wanted an education for their children and were prepared to pay, even more than they could afford. The desire for education was a constant factor and universally held.” Further, Wakefield states “the people of Ireland are universally educated. I do not know of any part of Ireland so wild that its inhabitants are not anxious for the education for their children.”
In 1810 William Reed on his tour of Ireland speaks about Hedge Schools and the desire of Irish parents to educate their children, “A desire for education manifests itself, and very generally, among the lower orders of the people. I found several very humble seminaries called hedge schools. There are teachers, who become inmates of a cabin for several weeks, receive temporary lodging and a few potatoes to instruct juvenile inhabitants.” Teachers who were male received about 9 pounds per year and female teachers were paid 4 pounds per year. There were several accounts of people with little or no means who had an extra building on their property who would loan the instructor use of a building for the hedge school. The Government also tried to keep control of the educational system and would provide grants for education and provide school buildings.
In 1805, males received an average of 2.3 years of education. From 1846-51 males earned an average of 5 years of education and by 1867 the average education for males rose to 6.6 years. By 1830 there was a drive towards mass literacy. Private education brought education outside of the state and church run schools. About a quarter of the children of the working class were educated in this way. Over 6,000 teachers sought to become certified by 1849 as the Government sought to standardize the educational system. Churches continued to influence the subjects to be taught and the control over texts and reading materials for the masses.
The Registrar General who recorded literacy rates during census years concluded that in 1841 males were 67.3% literate and females were 51.1%. In 1851 the literacy rate increased to 69% for males and 54.8% for females. In 1861 males obtained a rating of 75.4% and for woman was 73.2%. Some factors that affected literacy rates were living in the rural areas in Northern Ireland where schools were not available. Often students were living more than ten miles from a school. The major factor was that Irish parents wanted their children not to learn just from books as the English did but to learn about all aspects of every day living. When subjects in daily living were introduced, the popularity of education flourished. By 1870 education was seen as a means to create an industrialized society. Laborers saw for the first time possibilities opened to them and new products and information were made available. In 1900, Ireland’s literacy rate reached 100%.
The drive towards literacy and the importance of education for Ireland’s children was influenced by the English Government’s greed for imperialism and social control over Ireland that attempted to devoid the Irish people of its history, customs and ability to govern its people. For Irish parents living in poverty in rural Northern Ireland in the early 1800s education was perceived as a means to social emancipation. Private citizens, teachers and parents risked their lives to raise expectations and opportunities for their “children”, ensuring that education would be provided to all children despite religious or financial background.
Don MacFarlane
December 22, 2012 at 11:21 am
The Catholic Church were not entirely blameless in perpetuating ignorance amongst the masses either. Witness Archbishop Troy, primate of Ireland, who condemned his flock and the many rebel priests for free-thinking at the time of the Act of Union. I would give a quote but my computer has crashed and I can’t access.
Eileen Breen
December 22, 2012 at 4:11 pm
The articles I read hinted that the churches had their hand in swaying opinions without actually pinpointing what the Catholic and Church of England said about education. I’ll have to check it out. It must have been difficult to stand up for what you believed in back then especially if you were a free thinking rebel clergy member. They felt for the common man but at the same time got heat from their churches and the Government.
BTW: I found several articles quickly on education in Northern Ireland and statistics proving the Irish Catholics had a high literacy rate despite all their hardships and they didn’t come to the US as illiterate men and woman. The Watson’s never researched this before putting their biases in their book. The book might have been more interesting and accurate if they had.
Londonderry
December 21, 2012 at 10:40 am
Don, I think the Watson interface might be interesting and educational. It might be that we learn from any pushback in particular areas……e.g. “the “professor” protesteth too much me thinks” from Lady Gertrude in Hamlet. I applaud your approach to gently engage and suggest you continue, if he responds.
Eileen Breen
December 18, 2012 at 9:43 pm
I found an interesting book on Ancestry. If you go to search bar and type in Pennsylvania; “Personal Reminiscences Of The Old Main Line”. It’s the original line of the Pennsylvania RR. It discusses all the social history of Philadelphia and PRR. It doesn’t mention Philip Duffy or the Cut as it takes place 1860-1879 but it was interesting to read the history.
From the book on the subject of ancestry: p 96-99: “We are indeed a melting pot’s product like a thick vegetable soup, in which the stock is Anglo-Saxon- the strength of the soup; but the rest of it is in the mixture that we see, taste and chew on.” From the Columbus dispatch: 33 million immigrants came to America. 1/4 (24.7%) of the immigrants came from the United Kingdom.
I put up a profile on Philip Duffy ( info from the book) and only 1 record I could find on Ancestry for the 1830 census in which the Duffy’s Philip, his wife, son Francis Xavier and daughter lived w/ 24 men and a child age 10-14 yr. Listed on the census: 1 male: age 5-9 (Duffy’s son), 1 male: age 10-14. Of the 24 men: 3 males in household age: 30-39. 1 female under age 5 (Duffy’s Dtr), 1 female age 20-29 ( Duffy’s wife) and 3 children under age of 20 ( Duffy’s 2 children and 1 other child), 24 free white men in total (10 of these are aliens, foreigner’s not naturalized).
Eileen Breen
December 20, 2012 at 2:03 pm
FFT: OnTwitter they have a set up where if a person is missing they can use Twitter and their social network to find missing people For ex they have siver alert for and elderly person and amber alert for children. I think there are different degrees of severity. I was thinking why couldn’t genealogy research clubs all over the world find the missing. Obviously we are looking for people that have died so it’s like a cold case. Maybe genealogical groups would be willing to help us do research for these folks. Who better that people who are interested in genealogy and would like to help others figure out theit questions. The difference between just writing on one site at a time like starting a thread on Ancestry or Roots is time consuming. I don’t think people look at these threads often. Also you have to go through a lot of threads and as Don said the quality of the information wasn’t there. We could put out invitations to genealogy groups asking for their assistance about who we are looking for and asking them to respond to us on Twitter. It may be faster and more wide spread and more instant gratification.
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm
Sounds good to me. I suppose Facebook is similar but allows more space, has a photo gallery etc? The wordpress that services this website can connect up to Facebook but I suspect it can’t differentiate between one page on the website and another. The idea of the waxwings page was for it to be tighter and less random, specialising in DuffysCut etc issues. My brother links up his wordpress site to Facebook and Twitter and gets several thousand hits per day compared to my several hundred at best. They rarely talk to him however so I’m not sure how worthwhile that is.
Eileen Breen
December 21, 2012 at 1:50 am
I suppose it doesn’t do any good if they won’t talk to us. Frncis Davis. Only a few choices for this name but I’m not sure if I have the same person. On the UK side later census records have Davis families near Letterkenny and Stranolar. In Philadelphia I found 1 in Philadelphia in 1850 in ward 3, not sure of the profession. He’s a farmer in Ireland so I don’t think he would be living in the city. The neighborhood is near Kensington and N. Liberties. 1880 there’s a Francis Davis in the poor house: Paralysis, in Philadelphia.
I’m not finding anything definitive for Samuel Adams, Robert Allen, William Balantine, Barr family and Brisland family. I’m trying to go through the family groups on the Prudence.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 8:45 am
I have been through the PA and OH censuses and have come up with these surnames (all with correct first names) and these surnames alone from our waxwings. These lists comprise therefore roughly half of our names which means the other names are not in the PA or OH censuses and may be further afield.
Mostly, there have been single results, several means two and where I have said ‘various’ that refers to no more than four possibles. There are no multiples of more than four viz ‘too many choices’. I have not studied this list yet but my immediate impression is that few if any of these townships are in Philadelphia. That would mean the City Directories would be of limited use, except that I have not tracked the census results.
The male names from the John Stamp are asterisked and if even one of these names is correct the Watson story, which depends on no survivors, falls apart. The names in asterisks belong to females who may well have changed names if they married. The logical next step for me is to bombard Google with these combos and see what comes up.
Pennsylvania Censuses
Aikin – East Whiteland
Balentine* – Brandywine
Barber* – Tredyffrin
Barr – Willistown or West Fallowfield
Bryan – Sadsbury
Buchanan – Honeybrook
Caldwell – East Bradford
Childs – Maria, N. Coventry
Cochrane – Highland
Cook – E Bradford or New Garden
Cowan – E Nottingham or Sadsbury
Craig – Kennett
Elliott* – Newlin
Ewing* – Warwick or East Nantmeal
Fleming – Lower Oxford or West Fallowfield
Forbes* – West Brandywine
Gilfillan – West Fallowfield
Greer – Highland or West Pikeland
Griffin – Phoenixville
Hastings – West Bradford
Henderson – West Chester
Higgins – Phoenixville
Hunter* – several
McConnell – West Nottingham
McCormick*- West Chester or West Whiteland
McGlone* – Phoenixville
McMichael – Schuylkill and Honeybrook
Patchell* – London Grove and Penn
Potter*- Easttown
Shields – West Chester and Westtown
Snodgrass – West Fallowfield
Woods – Penn
Ohio Censuses
Arthur – Greenfield
Barton – various
Bryan – various
Burns – W Cincinnati
Childs – Bayview, Jefferson or W Dayton
Creighton*- Pleasant, Hale or Portage
Culbertson – W Cincinnati, Madison or Troy
Cully* – W Cincinnati
Diven* – Cincinnati
Ellis – various
Fowler – Harrison
Gregory – Madison
Hastings* – various
Keys – Waynesville
Kyle – Sugarcreek or Henia
McGuire – various
Mahon* – Wyandot
Montgomery – W Cincinnati and Fremont
McBride – Crosby
McClay – Piqua
McConnell – various
McCormick* – various
McHenry – Xenia or Cincinnati
McMichael – Pleasant
McQuigg – Claridon
Neely – Hillsborough and Springfield
Nelson – Oxford and Cincinnati
Noble – various
Owens – various
Patchell*- Onelick
Peoples – various
Potter*- Trumbull
Riddle – Clermont
Ritchie – Cincinnati
Russell – various
Shaw – various
Sherwood – Oxford
Snodgrass – several
Southwell – Millcreek
Wilkinson – Madison
Woods – various
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 11:27 am
Higgins of Phoenixville PA
Here is an early capture from Google. I have no idea if it is the right Higgins family tree till I study it but it is not the original John Higgins. I only post it to illustrate the good work that is being done ‘out there’ in the ether.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mjhiggins/pa.htm
Eileen Breen
December 21, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Do you want to run these names w/ just Ohio residences and skip Philadelphia? I agree I wasn’t getting much for Philadelphia.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 5:13 pm
I think they just passed through Philly for other parts of PA, OH and beyond. ‘Farmers’ I can understand heading for where land coud be got, weavers I think would be more inclined to hang around PA?
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 9:20 am
I said in my mail to Frank Watson that I was merely keeping him posted – I ostensibly did not expect a reply as it was merely an update rather than anything else. This disclaimer was merely a camouflage on my part to cover any embarassment or defensiveness he might feel at being confronted. I specifically challenged him on two points only and I said there were no other points of divergence (not quite true). These points were about their suppositions that the workers were native Irish and poor at English speaking. Given that Lancaster County and its surrounds were largely founded by Ulster- Scots I stated that I doubted there was the degree of racism implied by them that would require such a hush-hush coverup. I also asked why there were only two Ulster-Scots names on the memorial.
My mailtracker records that the mail has not been opened yet, only that it has been delivered. I presume Frank has not read it yet or has binned it unopened. If he has opened it, he will know now that we may have in mind to publish our efforts at some point and that may put the cat amongst the pigeons in relation to their own book coming out next year I think.
Eileen Breen
December 17, 2012 at 2:05 am
I put in place names for Woods, Lecky, W. Doherty and Wilkinson
James Lecky: 1828: Tithe: 1828 Gortnamuck, Donegal, Donaghmore
Woods: Farmer, in Mt Washington, Virginia. Also in Pittsburg, PA in the 32nd Ward in 1872.
*I didn’t find James Lecky or William Doherty in Pittsburg but the last names were present in Pittsburg, PA.
1831: Donegal, Townland: Ballymacarry, Parish: Fahan Lower
Elizabeth Wilkinson: Associated W/ Henry McCauley. There’s a Mary and a Hannah McCauley also on the J.S. I wasn’t able to find the family yet. Wilkinson found 3 death dates in PA in West Philadelphia, age 79, age 28 in Philadelphia and married to a John Wilkinson in Petersburg, PA (She was a spinster on J.S.) so this last one seems unlikely.
Dolly McFadden: Listed as a laborer? I think when they entered Henry McCauley having his 2 boxes he brought his occupation was put on the next line on Dolly McFadden’s name. He could be listed as unmarried but there are 2 other McCauly’s listed. So I think Dolly McFadden is unmarried. Elizabeth Wilkinson is a spinster and Henry McFadden is a laborer w/ 2 children? Mary and Hannah.
Henry McCauley: City Directories in Philadelphia have a few Henry McCauley’s listed w/ 4 professions.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 7:53 pm
Name Census BMD Military Immigration Newspapers Stories
Alexander Barber 2,643 5,000 3,062 321 5,000+ 2,438
John Burns 2,781 5,000 5,000 1,666 5,000 5,000
John Craig 5,000 5,000 5,000 1,898 5,000 5,000
John Creighton 172 1,854 1,139 122 5,000 1,533
James Crilly 11 95 58 15 5,000 76
James Deviney 75 318 197 67 5,000 169
These numbers are using filters: Name, Year Of Birth, Place Of Birth, Death 1832 Malvern, PA, USA and Placed Lived: Philadelphia, PA, USA (All Search).
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 10:59 pm
I forgot to say: each page has 10 items per page for each category. The searches give alternate spellings. I think you can place an * on the first or last name or use a ( ) on a name for more specific searches if you have a Mac. I haven’t tried it yet. I read it in an Ancestry book. Just can’t use numbers near a name the filters don’t work. I’ll try to do more searches in the AM.
Don MacFarlane
December 14, 2012 at 9:06 am
In the course of completing the biogs for the ‘Country Folks’ page, I came across a number of Ancestry.com forums for a number of the names. I am not impressed with these forums, either because of the sparsity of responses in some instances or because they are too dispersed to be of much use. Hence, I remain a very committed non-fan of Ancestry for that and other reasons we have talked about.
I will not be directing any of my efforts towards Ancestry as I think they have made a bollocks of the whole thing (sorry, an Irish expression). I know you have come up with really good material already from that source but I think that particular well is dry now. I also commend your efforts which have been really original and imaginative in trying to force Ancestry to work. However, I think our small tight group can do much better through our individual efforts and I have some plans up my sleeve which I will pass on soon once they are more definite and crystallised.
In the meantime, continue with Ancestry if you please but count me out. I will not be renewing my subscription and I think their whole set-up is a sham and a shambles. I would not give them the light of day if they came to me for business – in a previous existence I commissioned client information systems so I know what to expect. I can tell you a story about two set-ups, who do remind me of Ancestry actually, who did come touting for business but got short shrift from me in particular!
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 6:57 am
I had the map in mind to do of where waxwings came from by townland and county and I was in the process of doing so when my computer crashed. It is still crashed and I will have to decide what to do about that as it is unlikely to be fixed (too old) or replaced, if at all, till after Christmas. I continue to post onto FTT with my ipad which is mostly what I have been doing up till now but it has its limitations. It doesn’t have Word or Excel as it is an Apple product.
When I get up and running again I will tackle a spreadsheet, not the existing DuffyTemp one but an existing one which I have had in storage for a long while based on Griffiths. I will add to it new material from the ship lists to PA from Derry for the period 1830-1834. From that I will analyse the patterns of evacuation from Townlands. My impression so far is that there is no pattern of evacuation from the townlands in general, it is all very patchy and sporadic, apart from these – Derry (Maghera, Faughanvale and Macosquin), with very little from East or South Derry; Tyrone (Castlederg and Strabane), with very little from East or South Tyrone; Donegal (Letterkenny, Muff and Lifford), with very little from West or South Donegal. In other words, the further you get away from the port of Derry, the less immigration there has been, it seems to be a local phenomenon. If I take a wider sample of ships the picture could build up more but I don’t intend to trouble the team with that search as that is something I will do on the side.
BTW Sorry if I have caused confusion but could we continue to use FTT for normal posting and reserve the Waxwings page for reference purposes only as that was what that page was set up to do.
I posted the Ferguson link as an example of a very systematic piece of research and to show the range of sources that was used but it has limited value for what we are doing. It is a tour-de-force of all the Fergusons in Ireland but that was the precise reason I left Ferguson off the list of waxwings – the name is all too common to be of use for our purposes. I had spotted Hunter Ferguson and I had contemplated using him, but mainly because of his first name which was very unusual. He might still be a good candidate for that reason.
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 7:24 am
Other Trends
American Civil War
Most of the Irish soldiers who fought in the war came from Gaelic-speaking counties. So much for the prejudice that Americans supposedly had against Gaelic-speaking Irishmen. They didn’t mind fighting alongside them?
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 7:41 am
Plantation of Ireland
It is clear from this map, as if we didn’t know that already, that the majority of our waxwings were of Ulster-Scots (Scotch-Irish) descent.
Eileen Breen
December 20, 2012 at 1:23 pm
Could Hunter be a family name? Maybe his mother’s maiden name? In the Civil War there were over 38 regiments on both sides that had the word Irish in it. It may be interesting If we looked up some of the regiments to see where they came from? The 69th NY was one of the most noted. The work your doing on the trends for migration is very interesting. I think it adds another dimension to the story as well as everyone’s research contributions. Good luck w/ the computer. I had one crashed last year. I’m going to try to work at adding the information from the waxwing page to their profiles on Ancestry. If there is anything you need to add to your spreadsheets and can’t because your using the ipod let me know.
Eileen Breen
December 16, 2012 at 12:31 am
Check out on ancestry: Irish History Timeline Family Tree. I made you all contributors. We can add pictures, stories etc on the timeline. Feel free to add anything.
Eileen Breen
December 16, 2012 at 1:09 pm
I saw the names of the towns you added to the DuffyTemp page. I can add these to their profiles, maybe we’ll get a hit off these. I was thinking we should expand our search from Philadelphia outward. If many of those who were on the ships were Presbyterian perhaps they followed the church. I read they wanted small farms so the Pittsburg, PA area and Ohio countryside may be be places to look. Pittsburg is the second place the church expanded to after Philadelphia. I’ll try to look up the churches and maybe there are records to be found.
Don MacFarlane
December 16, 2012 at 1:35 pm
I am going to have a look at what ships left with Irish passengers from the North West of England, Scotland and Southern Ireland for the period 1830-1834 to see if I can pick up on more possible chains of emigration.
Don MacFarlane
December 19, 2012 at 9:37 am
Derry Census 1831
The following names have direct hits on the census
Gregory – Meeting House Lane in Coleraine or Gills in Macosquin
McGlone – Lissan
Sherwood – East Wall in Derry City
The following are mainly from Faughanvale and Cumber – Cowan, Davis, Gilfillan, Owens
The following are mainly from Loughinsholin – Diamond, McQuillan, Hemphill
The following are not on the census – Brisland, Brigham
The following are not on but have names that are similar
Carrigan (Carrican from Muff Village, otherwise known as Eglinton) but the name is common in other counties including Donegal.
Childs (Chilles)
McClannon (McClainan from Ballyleagry in Balteagh)
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 1:29 pm
I think I have a different angle to test which Parishes lost the most emigrants during tnat summer of 1832. So starting with Tyrone, waxwing names prevalent (50% of total names) there were:
Ardstraw – Aiken, Arthur, Baird, Barber, Barton, Bredin, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochran, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Devany, Doak, Donaghy, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Gregory, Grier, Hemphill, Henderson, Hunter, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leitch, Lemon, Levingston, Long, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McConamy, McCormick, McFadden, McHugh, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McKenny, McKnight, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhillimy, McQuade, McRory, McSwine, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Patrick, Polock, Porter, Quigley, Read, Russell, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Sproule, Woods.
I will check the rest of the parishes but I kind of know already none will come anywhere close.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 1:44 pm
Conwal Parish in Donegal
Waxwing Surnames (40% of Total)
Aikin, Baird, Barr, Boal, Buchanan, Byrnes, Craig, Davis, Deery, Dermod, Devanney, Diven, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Herold, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, Long, Magee, McClay, McConnell, McCormack, McElhiney, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHenry, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McRory, McSwine, McIlwaine, Neally, Nee, Nelson, Owen, Peoples, Porter, Read, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheil, Speer, Sproule, Teas, Wilkinson, Wood.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 11:17 pm
Clonleigh (Donegal) Waxwing Surnames (20%)
Allison, Bryan, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Henderson, Hood, Keys, Lecky, Leech, McAleer, McBride, McBrierty, McClay, McFadden, McGettigan, McGourley, McHugh, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Shiels, Slevin, Weir, Wilkie.
Don MacFarlane
December 22, 2012 at 10:22 am
Remaining Donegal Parishes
The percentages after the parishes refer to the percentage of the waxwing names which were to be found in that parish. Conwal with 40% has the biggest percentage of waxwing names, followed by Aughnish with 25%.
Names which have spilt over to Donegal from Tyrone or Derry and which from the ship manifests are not Donegal but Tyrone or Derry waxwings are: Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barr, Birney, Brisland, Brigham, Burns, Byrnes, Carrigan, Cowan, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Deanny, Diamond, Donaghy, Ellis, Forbes, Gilfillan, Gregory, Griffin, Hay, Hemphill, Keys, Livingstone, Leitch, Long, Maguire, McConnell, McGonigle, McKenny, McRory, Owens, Patrick, Shaw, Speer.
From that, the percentages of waxwing names indigenous in Donegal should be adjusted upwards by a third. In the case of Aughnish for example the percentage of possible waxwing names in that parish will be closer to 35%, not 25%, and a similar adjustment can be made for the rest of the parishes. This inclusion of non-Donegal names might seem to be causing unnecessary confusion but it is presented this way to give some feel for the internal migration that took place in Ulster which was quite apart from the emigration to places abroad.
Donegal names off the John Stamp were – Allison, Craig, Creighton, Diver, Doak, Elliott, Fullerton, Hastings, Hunter, Montgomery, McCahill, McGettigan, McGhee, McGourley, McIlhenny, McKinney, Patchill, Quigley, Rush, Ruddy, Shannon.
1. Aghanunshin (10%) – Baird, Berny, Buchanan, Davis, Elliott, Greer, Hood, McGettigan, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Noble, Reid, Russell, Speer, Wood, Wylie.
2. All Saints (20%) – Allison, Arthur (A), Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell (A), Cochrane (A), Cooke (A), Craig, Darmond, Deary, Divanny, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Griffin, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Kerrigan, Long, Magee, Maguire, McBride, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McNaught, McQuaid, McCormack, Noble, Peoples, Shannon, Sheil, Woods
3. Aughnish (25%) – Aiken, Allison, Birney, Brien (A), Buchanan, Caldwell, Cooke, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Fleming, Fullerton, Gibbons, Griffin, Hay, Henderson, Hunter, Kyle, Lackie, McBride, McConnell, McCormick, McFadden, McFate, McGettigan, McGhee, McIlwaine, McKenny, McMenamin, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheils, Sproule, Tays, Wood
4. Burt (15%) – Bredin, Byrne, Cochran, Dermott, Elder, Fleming, Hay, Hunter, Long, Magee, McBride, McConnell, McConomy, McCormick, McGonigle, McKenny, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McNutt, McSwine, Nealy, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Shiel, Wilkinson, Wyley.
5. Clonca (10%) – Baird, Davis, Dearmod (A), Deery, Devanny, Diver, Elder, Elliott, Fleming, McGonigle, McGuire, McIlhenny, McRory, Nelson, Quigley, Ruddy, Shiels.
6. Clondahorky (15%) – Baird, Barr, Grier, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Hunter, Mahon, McBride, McFadden, McGee, McIlhenny, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Shiels, Weir, Wilkinson, Woods.
7. Clondavaddog (10%) – Brien, Buchanan, Culbertson (A), Dermod, Gibbons, Griffin, Hay, Magee, McBride, McElhinny, McGettigan, McIlwaine, McSwine, Peoples, Reid, Sheil.
8. Clonleigh (20%) – Allison, Bryan, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Henderson, Hood, Keys, Lecky, Leech, McAleer, McBride, McBrierty, McClay, McFadden, McGettigan, McGourley, McHugh, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Shiels, Slevin, Weir, Wilkie.
9.Clonmany (7%) – Brisland, Diver, Herald, Hood, Magrory, McGonigle, McIlhenny, McKenny, Montgomery, Nelso, Quigley, Sheil.
10. Convoy (20%) – Byrne, Caldwell, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Devany, Ellison, Ewing, Grier, Henderson, Kerrigan, Knee, Leckey, Levingston, McBride, McCormack, McFadden, McGee, McGuire, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Neely, Reid, Russell, Shiels, Slevin, Snodgrass, Spear, Sproule, Woods.
11. Conwal (40%) – Aikin, Baird, Barr, Boal, Buchanan, Byrnes, Craig, Davis, Deery, Dermod, Devanney, Diven, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Herold, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, Long, Magee, McClay, McConnell, McCormack, McElhiney, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHenry, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McRory, McSwine, McIlwaine, Neally, Nee, Nelson, Owen, Peoples, Porter, Read, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheil, Speer, Sproule, Teas, Wilkinson, Wood.
12. Culdaff (10%) – Barr, Caldwell, Craig, Crawford, Diarmod, Fleming, Henderson, Long, Mahon, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, McKenny, McQuade, Nelson, Quigley, Sheils, Woods.
13. Desertegney (2%) – Barr, Fullerton, Magrory, McKenny.
14. Donagh (7%) – Barr, Bresland, Elder, Ferguson, Gibbins, Herald, McDonagh, McGonigle, McIlhenny, McKenny, McRory, Nelson, Shiels.
15. Donaghmore (30%) – Barr, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlin, Cochran, Crawford, Davis, Deveny, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Gibbons, Gregory, Grier, Griffith, Henderson, Hunter, Leckey, Maguire, McBride, McCormack, McFadden, McGee, McHugh, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McNaught, McSwine, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Russell, Shiels, Slevin, Snodgrass, Sproule, Woods.
16. Donegal (20%) – Brigham, Buchanan, Byrne, Cowen, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Elliott, Greer, Gregory, Griffith, Henderson, Higgins, Mahon, McCormack, McFadden, McGettigan, McHugh, McIlhenny, McNamee, McQuaid, McSwine, Montgomery, Quigley, Richie, Shiels, Slevin, Weir (JS 6).
17. Drumhome (20%) – Barber, Bredin, Buchanan, Byrne, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Devany, Diver, Edgar, Elliott, Ellis, Gibbons, Gregory, Griffith, Henderson, Kerrigan, Magee, Maguire, McBride, McClay, McCormack, McFadden, McIlhenny, McQuaid, McRory, Montgomery, Nelson, Reid.
18. Fahan Lower (10%) – Barr, Breesland, Cochrane, Cooke, Donaghy, Elliott, Fullerton, Hunter, Keays, Levingston, McFadden, McGonigle, McGrory, McKenny, Nelson, Quigley
19. Fahan Upper (10%) – Barr, Cochran, Davis, Devanny, Elder, Ferguson, Henderson, McClea, McCormack, McIlhenny, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Nicholl, Quigley, Ruddy, Shaw, Sheil, Wyley.
20. Gartan (5%) – Fleming, McCormack, McIlhenny, Nee, Neely, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Skipton.
21. Glencolumbkille (7%) – Buchanan, Byrne, Craig, Crawford, Diver, Griffith, Higgins, McBrierty, McGonagle, McGuire, McHugh, McNelis
22. Inch (5%)- Craig, Dermott, Ewing, Fleming, Griffin, McCormack, McGrory, McSwyne
23. Innishkeel (15%) – Aril, Byrne, Brisland, Carlon, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Devany, Devir, Elliott, Griffin, Long, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McGee, McGuire, McHugh, McIlhenny, McManamin, McNalis, McSwine, Quigley, Richey, Sproule.
24. Innishmacsaint (15%) – Brien, Brislane, Byrne, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyles, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCormack, McGonigle, McGuire, McKenny, Montgomery, Noble, Reid, Ruddy, Shaw, Shiel, Slevin.
25. Inver (20%) – Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Cowan, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Elliott, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Kerrigan, Kyle, Long, Maguire, McBrierty, McCahill, McCormick, McDonagh, McFadden, McGettigan, McGrory, McHugh, McMonigle, Montgomery, Reid, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Slevin (JS 6)
26. Kilbarron (20%) – Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Culbertson, Davis, Deery, Devanny, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Gibbons, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Kerrigan, Keys, Maguire, McBrerety, McBride, McCormack, McGettigan, McGhee, McGonigle, McMenamin, McNelis, Montgomery, Nelson, Patchell, Quigley, Shiels, Slevin.
27. Kilcar (5%) – Byrne, Mahon, McBrearty, McBride, McFadden, McGonigle, McBride, McHugh, Ryan.
28. Killaghtee (15%) – Barr, Buchanan, Byrne, Cooke, Crawford, Deery, Ellison, Ewing, Gibbons, Griffin, Hastings, Henderson, Higgins, Long, Maglone, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCahill, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHugh, Richey, Shannon, Shaw.
29. Killea (12%) – Arthur, Baird, Buchanan, Byrne, Craig, Elliott, Ferguson, Gilfellan, Hunter, Kernahan, Lecky, McBrearty, McDonagh, McIlwaine, McNutt, Montgomery, Rankin, Woods.
30. Killybegs Lower (8%) – Bresland, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Elliott, Griffin, Hunter, Long, McBride, McConnell, McGuire, McHugh, Quigley, Richey.
31. Killybegs Upper (10%) – Bresland, Byrne, Crawford, Davis, Devanny, Long, McBrearty, McCahill, McCormack, McFadden, McGonigle, McGuire, McHugh, McIlwaine, McRory, Shannon.
32. Killygarvan (10%) – Bryan, Cochran, Gibbons, Grier, Griffin, Henderson, Kyle, McBride, McGhee, McGonigle, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nelson, Quigley.
33. Killymard (10%) – Brigham, Byrne, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Dermott, Ellis, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Long, McGee, McGettigan, McGrory, McHugh, Montgomery, Richey, Slevin.
34. Kilmacrenan (20%) – Bresland, Brien, Buchanan, Crawford, Devany, Elder, Elliott, Gibbons, Hastings, Hay, Higgins, Hood, Kyle, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McDonagh, McElhinny, McElwain, McFadden, McFate, McGhee, McGettigan, McHugh, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nelson, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Sheil.
35. Kilteevogue (10%) – Byrne, Devany, Ferguson, Henderson, McBrerety, McBride, McCahill, McCormack, McHugh, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McSwyne, Slevin.
36. Leck (20%) – Allison, Baird, Boale, Davis, Devany, Elliott, Ewing, Gregg, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, McConnell, McCormack, McFadden, McGuire, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nee, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Wilkinson, Wyley.
37. Lettermacaward (8%) – Brislan, Byrne, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, McBride, McGee, McGettigan, McGuire, McHugh, McIlhenny, Russell.
38. Mevagh (15%) – Barr, Barton (A), Brislane, Crawford, Devanny, Devir, Greer, Hay, Hunter, McBride, McConnell, McFadden, McGettigan, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNutt, McFadden, McBride, Peoples, Sheil, Speer, Wilkinson.
39. Mintiaghs of Inch – Barr, Bresland
40. Moville Lower (15%) – Baird, Barr, Carlan, Cooke, Crawford, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Ellis, Hastings, Hemphill, Henderson, Herold, Kerrigan, McConnell, McCormack, McDonagh, McGee, McGonigle, McHenry, McKenny, McSwine, Montgomery, Peebles, Sproule.
41. Moville Upper (15%) – Alleson, Baird, Barr, Bredin, Brislan, Burns, Carlin, Cochran, Cooke, Crawford, Dermott, Ewin, Ferguson, Hay, Hemphill, Henderson, Kerrigan, McDonagh, McGee, McGonigle, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Peebles, Quigley, Shiels, woods.
42. Muff (15%) – Allison, Barber, Barr, Bresland, Cochrane, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Elder, Ewing, Ferguson, Gibbons, Gilfillan, Greer, Long, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Quigley, Sheils, Wylie.
43. Raphoe (8%) – Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Henderson, McBride, McCormack, McMenamin, McNaught, Nelis, Noble, Russell.
44. Raymoghy (18%) – Allison, Arthur, Barr, Bresland, Crawford, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Gilfillan, Henderson, Hood, Hunter, Lecky, Mahon, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McFadden, McHugh, McIlwaine, Montgomery, Peoples, Quigley, Shannon, Shiels.
45. Raymunterdoney – Ferguson, Greer, Mahon, McBride, McFadden, McGee.
46. Taughboyne (10%) – Arthur, Cochrane, Cowan, Craig, Devanny, Donaghy, Elliott, Greer, McNaught, Neilly, Nicholl, Porter, Rusk, Speer, Woods.
47. Templecarn (15%) – Aikens, Caldwell, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Elliott, Ellis, Henderson, Kyle, Magrory, Maguire, McIlwaine, McHugh, McMenamin, McRory, Nelson, Noble,
Owens, Peebles, Reid, Woods.
48. Templecrone (8%) – Crawford, Devanny, Ellis, McBride, McCormick, McFadden, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, McMenamin, McNelis, Quigley, Slevin, Sproule.
49. Tullaghobegley – Davis, Devir
50. Tullyfern (25%) – Aikin, Birney, Buchanan, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Elliott, Ellis, Ewing, Ferguson, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Hay, Hunter, Kerrigan, Kyle, McBride, McClay, McConnell, McElhinny, McFadden, McGettigan, McGrory, McIlwain, McNutt, McSwyne, Montgomery, Peoples, Quigley, Reid, Richey, Russell, Reid, Shannon, Snodgrass, Sproule.
51. Tullyfern (12%) – Barr, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Grier, Griffin, Henderson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leech, McCormack, McHugh, McNaught, Nelson, Sproule, Rush.
52. Urney – Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leech, McCormack, McHugh, McNaught, Nelson, Rush, Russell, Sproule.
Commentary:
A definite picture may emerge which, coupled with triangulation and mapping, might provide evidence of local recruiting activity prior to the sailing. An initial eyeball test, however, and subject to later statistical analysis, does not suggest any prior recruiting in Ireland of the John Stamp crew.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 11:11 am
Donegal Recruitment for Ship Prudence?
Names – Buchanan, Greer, Kernahan, Davis, Kyle, Lecky, McDonagh, Peoples, Weir, Woods, Barr, Kernaghan
Barr – very spread out.
Buchanan – 1 2 3 7 8 11 15 16 17 25 26 28 30 34 43 50 51 52
Greer – 1 6 8 10 11 15 16 32 38 42 46 50 51 52
Kernahan – 29
Lecky – 15 36 43 44 52
Peoples – 2 6 11 20 34 36 38 44 49 50
Davis – very spread out
Kyle – 3 25 47
Weir – 16 24 33
Woods – 2 6 10 12 15 41 43 46 47
McDonagh – 14 25 34 40 41 43
Numbers are codes for ‘Remaining Donegal Parishes’, (see post on 22nd Dec 2012). The clusters do not on the surface indicate wholesale recruitment by the Prudence for these names. Reference to ship’s manifest indicates that the Greers and Barrs travelled as a family or couple and the Buchanans and Kernahans came as siblings so they can all be removed from the list. Woods and Lecky travelled together and both may have come from Donaghmore (15) or Raphoe (43). Or they may have come from Killea along with McDonagh. All of these places are in East Raphoe barony and a short distance from each other adjoining Tyrone.
More work needs to be done yet to explore these origins and this is ongoing. These details would ordinarily be on the DuffyTemp Excel spreadsheet but my computer has broken down and forbearance is required.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Tyrone Parishes of Waxwings
Tyrone Waxwings: Baird (S), Ballantine (S), Barber (S), Barr (P), Birney (P), Burns (S), Byrnes (S), Crawford (P), Cully (S), Deery (P), Devanny (S), Donaghy (S), Forbes (S), Foster (S), Hay (P), Keys (P), Livingstone (S), Leitch (P), Lemon (S), Long (S), Maguire (S), McAdam (S), McAnaney (S), McCanny (S), McConnell (S), McRory (S), McGlashan (S), McGonigle (S), McKinney (S), McMichael (S), Patrick (P), Potter (S), Rice (S), Scallin (S), Shaw (S), Speer (S), McAnamy.
John Stamp (S); Prudence (P); Asia (A); Ontario (O)
1. Aghaloo (20%) – Barber, Barr, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Donaghey, Ellis, Ferguson, Fleming, Foster, Henderson, Higgins, Keys, Kyle, Levingston, McAdam, McConnell, McGee, McGlone, McHugh, McKenny, McMichael, McQuade, Montgomery, Nelis, Nelson, Potter, Reid, Shannon, Sheils, Slevin, Stringer, Woods, Wyley. Possible waxwings = 11.
2. Aghalurcher – Birney, Caldwell, Cowan, McGuire, McRory, Montgomery, Noble, Woods.
3. Arboe (15%)- Ballantine, Burns, Cowan, Creighton, Donaghy, Eldher, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Lemmon, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, Meenagh, Reid, Rice, Ryan, Shaw, Sheals, Taylor, Wyley. Possible waxwings – 10.
4. Ardstraw (50%) – Aiken, Arthur, Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barton, Bredin, Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlan, Carrigan, Cochran, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Devany, Doake, Donaghy, Ellison, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Gregory, Grier, Hemphill, Henderson, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Keys, Kyle, Leitch, Lemon, Levingston, Long, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCanny, McConnell, McCormick, McFadden, McHugh, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhelimy, McQuaid, McRory, McSwine, McAnaney, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Patrick, Quigley, Reid, Riddall, Rush, Russell, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Sproule, Stevenson, Taylor, Woods. Possible waxwings = 24
5. Artrea (6%) – Burns, Caldwell, Cooke, Crawford, Ferguson, Foster, Greer, McDonagh, Spears, Weir.
6. Ballinderry – Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Greer, Potter, Ryan.
7. Ballyclog (12%) – Brien, Buchanan, Byrne, Davis, Donaghy, Elder, Ellison, Ferguson, Henderson, Hunter, Levingston, McBride, McConnell, McFadden, McMenamin, McRory, Nelson, Nicholl, Russell, Wyley.
8. Bodoney Lower (20%) – Ballantine, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Crawford, Culberton, Davis, Deery, Donaghy, Ellis, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hunter, Leech, Mahon, McAleer, McAneny, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McHugh, McIlwaine, McMenamin, McMichael, McNamee, McPhilimy, McRory, Montgomery, Neally, Nicholl, Spear, Wilkinson.
9. Bodoney Upper (15%) – Ballantine, Barton, Byrne, Crawford, Ferguson, Fullerton, Griffin, Hay, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McElwain, McEneny, McNamee, McQuade, Nels, Noble, Patrick, Reid, Woods.
10. Camus (30%) – Aiken, Baird, Barber, Barr, Beirne, Bredin, Buchanan, Burns, Carlin, Cowan, Craig, Culbertson, Davis, Dearmod, Devany, Elliott, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Leech, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McConnamee, McCormack, McIlhenny, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McRory, McSwyne, Nelson, Nicholl, Noble, Quigley, Read, Riddall, Shiel, Snodgrass, Sproule.
11. Cappagh (10%) – Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Donaghy, Edgar, Ellis, Fleming, Greer, Hunter, Livingstone, Mcleer, McBride, McRmack, McKenny, McNamee, McQuade, Reid, Sheils.
12. Carnteel (20%) – Aiken, Ballantine, Buchanan, Caldwell, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Fleming, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Kernihan, Kyle, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McIlwaine, McNamee, McQuade, Montgomery, Neilly, Nelson, Potter, Reid, Riddall, Russell, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Taylor.
13. Clogher (33%) – Aikens, Arthur, Barr, Barton, Birney, Blair, Bredin, Bryan, Buchanan, Caldwell, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Donaghy, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Henderson, Hunter, Kernahan, Keys, Kyle, Long, McNamee, McRory, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McConnell, McCormack, McGlone, McKenny, McNelis, McQuade, Montgomery, Neilly, Nelson, Nicholl, Owens, Reid, Rice, Richey, Rush, Russell, Shannon, Shiels, Skelton, Slevin, Taylor, Weir, Woods.
14. Clogherny (20%) – Ballantine, Barr, Barton, Bredin, Byrne, Cochrane, Cooke, Crawford, Culbertson, Donaghy, Ellison, Forbes, Greer, Kyle, Macrory, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCormack, McHugh, McNamee, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Neally, Nicholl, Noble, Owens, Patrick, Read, Rice, Ritchie, Rush, Shiels, Sproule, Stevenson.
15. Clonfeacle (25%) – Aiken, Barber, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Long, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McConnell, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McQuade, Meenagh, Nelson, Patrick, Peebles, Reid, Ryan, Shannon, Sheil, Skelton, Sterling, Stevenson, Stringer, Taylor, Weir, Wiley, Wilkinson, Woods.
16. Clonoe (8%) – Arthur, Burns, Donaghy, Gibbons, Higgins, Hunter, Magrory, Magee, McConomy, McCormack, McQuade, McCrory, Montgomery, Nicholl, Reid, Russell, Ryan, Woods.
17. Derryloran (25%) – Ballantine, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Fleming, Greer, Griffin, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Lecky, Leitch, McRory, McGee, McAleer, McBride, McConamy, McConnell, McCormack, McElwain, McFadden, McGlone, McGourley, McNamee, McQuade, Nelson, Owens, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Ridell, Russell, Shaw, Stirling, Taylor, Weir.
18. Desertcreat – Baird, Ballantine, Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Burns, Craig, Devanney, Donaghy, Ferguson, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Magee, Maguire, McAdam, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McConomy, McCormack, McGlone, McQuaid, McRory, McShane, Reid, Russell, Woods.
19. Donacavey – Arthur, Baird, Barr, Bredin, Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Cooke, Crawford, Culbertson, Donaghy, Elliott, Ewing, Fleming, Griffin, Henderson, Maguire, McAleer, McCormack, McCrory, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhilemy, Nelis, Noble, Owens, Potter, Reid, Sheils, Skelton, Slavin, Sproule, Taylor, Weir.
20. Donaghedy – Aiken, Baird, Barr, Bresland, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Devanny, Diarmod, Donaghy, Edgar, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Forbes, Griffin, Hennderson, Hunter, Kerrigan, Leech, Levingston, Long, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McConamy, McConnell, McGettigan, McGonigle, McKenny, McMenamin, McPhelimy, McRory, McShane, Neely, Nelson, Patrick, Quigley, Rice, Richey, Shaw, Shiels, Slevin.
21. Donaghenry – Birney, Byrne, Caldwell, Crawford, Davis, Donaghy, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ferguson, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Keys, Lemon, Maguire, McAdam, McBride, McConammee, McConnell, McElwaine, McGee, McQuade, McRory, McGlone, McShane, Nicholl, Noble, Reed, Riddle, Rush, Riddle, Shields, Speer, Weir.
22. Donaghmore – Arthur, Barton, Birney, Byrne, Caldwell, Craig, Creighton, Davis, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Fullerton, Higgins, Hood, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McCormack, McGlone, McHugh, McMamee, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Reid, Richie, Rush, Shaw, Sheil, Taylor, Wylie, Woods.
23. Dromore – Arthur, Buchanan, Crawford, Edgar, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Fleming, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCanny, McConnell, McCormick, McDonagh, McEnaney, McFadden, McGee, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McQuade, Noble, Owens, Reed, Russell, Shannon, Slevin, Sproule, Wiley, Woods.
24. Drumglass – Arthur, Barton, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Davis, Divenny, Donaghy, Ellis, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Henderson, Hood, Leckey, McQuade, MacRory, McShane, Magee, Mahon, McBride, McConnell, McGlone, Maguire, McHugh, Montgomery, Nelis, Nelaon, Noble, Peebles, Slevin, Speer, Taylor, Wyley.
25. Drumragh – Aiken, Allison, Arthur, Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barton, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlan, Cochran, Cooke, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Delany, Doak, Donaghy, Elliott, Ellis, Fergey, Ferguson, Fleming, Forbes, Fullerton, Gibbons, Greer, Henderson, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Kyle, Lemmon, McRory, McGee, Mahon, McAdam, McAleer, McAnally, McAnaney, McBride, McClay, McConnell, McCormick, McDonagh, McFadden, McRory, McHugh, McKenny, McNaught, McPhilemy, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Nelson, Nicholl, Patrick, Rice, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils,
Slevin, Sproule, Taylor.
26. Errigal Keerogue – Buchanan, Burns, Cochrane, Crawford, Deery, Donaghy, Ewing, Ferguson, Greer, Gregory, Henderson, Higgins, Kyle, Macrory, McNelis, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McIlhenny, McGlone, McNamee, McQuaid, Montgomery, Neally, Reade, Rice, Riddall, Rice, Ryan, Sheil, Slevin, Spear, Stringer, Woods.
27. Errigal Trough – Fleming, Kyles, McQuade.
28. Kildress – Arthur, Burns, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Fullerton, Greer, McAleer, McBride, McCormack, McNamee, Montgomery, Potter, Reid, Taylor.
29. Killeeshill – Caldwell, Culbert, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Griffin, Henderson, McBride, McConnell, McElhinney, McGee, Macrory, MacNamee, McQuaid, Montgomery, Potter, Reid, Ryan, Shannon, Shiells, Woods.
30. Killyman – Cochran, Cowan, Creighton, Donaghy, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Henderson, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McGlone, McNamee, McQuade, McShane, Montgpmery, Nelson, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Russell, Ryan, Shaw, Skelton, Wiley, Woods.
31. Kilskeery – Cowan, Hunter, Maguire, Magee, McCormick, McQuaid, Montgomery, Reed.
32. Learmount – Donaghy
33. Leckpatrick – Arthur, Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Burns, Caldwell, Carlin, Cochrane, Davis, Devenny, Elliott, Ells, Ewing, Forbes, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Magee, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCormick, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, Mcguire, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McShane, Nicholl, Slevin, Weir, Woods.
34. Lissan – Ballantine, Brien, Donaghy, Fleming, Henderson, McAleer, McBride, McCrory, McGlone, McKenny, McNamee, Patrick, Reid, Weir, Wiley, Wilkinson.
35. Longfield East – Allison, Barr, Barton, Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Donaghy, Davis, Livingston, Magee, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McGuire, McHugh, McPhelimy, McQuade, McRory, quigley, Reid, Russell, Sproule, Woods.
36. Longfield West – Barr, Barton, Breslan, Buchana, Caldwell, Cook, Crawford, Creighton, Devanny, Hemphill, Higgins, Hunter, Keys, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McCormack, McMenamin, McPhelimy, McQuaid, Montgomery, Nelson, Quigley, Reid, Rush, Russell, Scallin, Shannon, Speers, Sproule, Woods.
37. Pomeroy – Aikin, Arthur, Barber, Buchanan, Ellis, Fleming, Foster, Magee, McAleer, McRory, McMenamin,McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Noble, Potter, Reid, Ruddy, Sheils, Wiley, Wilkinson, Woods.
38. Tamlaght – Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Ferguson, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Lamon, Leech, Long, Magee, McShane, Montgomer, Owens, Reid, Shaw, Spears, Weir, Wilkinson.
39. Termanomongan – Breslan, Byrne, caldwell, Carlin, Craig, Crawford, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Foster, Gibbons, Hemphill, Zhenderson, Hunter, Kyle, Lecky, Levingston, Magee, McCormack, McHugh, McIlhenny, McRory, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhilimy,
Rush, Heils, Snodgrass, Spears, Dproule.
40. Termonmaguirk – Buchanan, Cochran, Crawford, Avis, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Higgins, Kle, Levingston, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McDonagh, McGlone, McGuire, McNamee, McQuillan,McRory, Minagh, Nelson, Owens, Patrick, Ryan, Shiels, Taylor, Woods.
41. Tullyniskan – Bryan, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Elliott, Greer, Henderson, McConomy, McGlone, McGuire, McMenamin, McRory, Montgomery, Reid, Ruddy, Sheil, Skelton, Taylor, Weir, Woods.
42. Urney – Arthur, Baird, Barr, Beirne, Buchanan, Burns, Caldwell, Carland, Cowan, Craig, Deery, Donaghy, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Gibbin, Hay, Hemphill, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Long, Magee, McAdam, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McCormack, McGonigle, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhelimy, McRory, McShane, McSwine, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Owens, Quigley, Reid, Rush, Russell, Shaonnon, Speer, Sproule, Taylor, Woods.
Commentary So Far
Almost all of the Ardstraw emigrants that Summer, whatever number that there were, left on the John Stamp. The few that did not may have left on the Prudence. From these lists, the names that appear infrequently or not at all are: Barber, Birney, Blackwell, Boal, Brisland, Brigham, Childs, Culbertson, Cully, Diermott, Diven, Doak, Fergie, Foster, Fowler, Carland, Gilfillan, Gregory, Harold, Hastings, Hay, McAnaney, McDonagh, McFeat, McHenry, McMichael, McQuigg, Menagh, Nee, Potter, Risk, Ruddy, Scallin, Sherwood, Skelton, Sterling. That adds up to just over 20% of the total and these are super-waxwings. These names if spotted are much more likely to be the real deal and not cases of mistaken identity. The downside is that because they are rarer they are less likely to be spotted.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Donegal Waxwings by Ship
Allison (S), Buchanan (P), Carlin (O), Craig (S), Creighton (S), Diven (S), Doak (S), Elliott (S), Ewing (S), Ferguson (O), Fullerton (S), Gibbons (O), Greer (P), Harrold (O), Hastings (O), Hunter (S), Kernahan (P), Kyle (P), Lecky (P), Montgomery (S), McBrearty (O), McBride (O), McCahill (S), McClay (O), McDonagh (P), McGettigan (S), McGhee (S), McGourley (S), McIlhenny (S), McIlwaine (S), McMenamin (O), McPhelimy (P), McShane (O), Nee (O), Nelson (O), Patchell (S), Peoples (P), Quigley (S), Rush (S), Ruddy (S), Ryan (O), Shannon (S), Skilton (S), Slavin (O), Sproule (O), Taylor (S), Weir (P), Wilkinson (S), Woods (P).
Commentary
Tyrone waxwings invariably travelled on the John Stamp and never on the other ships, Prudence or Ontario, that travelled to PA in the Summer of 1832. Donegal waxwings travelled on all three ships. Unfortunately, the parishes or counties of origin were not recorded on the manifest of the Asia so that discovery will require a bit more digging to find out the answer. In other words, recruitment for the John Stamp appears to have happened at county level but not for the other ships.
Don MacFarlane
December 24, 2012 at 7:29 am
Passenger Groupings on Asia 1832
Barr/Wilson – Clogher, County Tyrone
Snodgrass/Bryan/Rich/Morrison/Nelson – Rich is probably in error, otherwise Ballymoney, County Antrim.
Arthur/Hunter/Diermott/Carland/Barton – Diermott is odd man out; otherwise Tyrone.
Southwell/McFadden/McAleer/McKenny – Southwell is the odd man out; otherwise Tyrone
McNamee/Conway/Cochrane – Derryloran, County Tyrone.
Patton/Graham/McCoy – North Antrim Coast viz Ballintoy or Cushendall.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 3:20 pm
On listing the choices: how many pages may be difficult since they tell you number of choices first and you have to scroll page after page until you hope you find the end. For ex: William Barber has 491,307 choices for all searches and 11,845 choices for US federal census. 1 family tree but it wasn’t matching his profile. Would it be better to say look at 5 pages and put down the number for best possible choices. It seems after the 1st 2 pages the choices on most people gets “unlikely”. In fact ancestry will put up “best choices for your ancestor”, then will list “unlikely choices”.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Yes. If it looks like if after the first two pages all you get is ‘unlikely’ then I would just put 2pp+ against the name. I think there might also be an ‘exact name’ option as well, to filter out the ‘and others’ category? Most of our waxwings only have one or two reasonable spellings. Hence, the names (within the confines above) I would give some latitude to would be such as:
Aiken (Eakin)
Allison (Alleson)
Ballantine (Balentine)
Barber (Barbour)
Boal (Bole)
Bryan (Brien)
Byrnes (Byrne)
Carlin (Carlan or Carland)
Carrigan (Kerrigan)
Cochrane (Cochran)
Cooke (Cook)
Davis (Davies)
Deery (Deary)
Devaney (Devany)
Diamond (Dimond or Dymond)
Diermott (Dermott or Dyermond)
Doak (Doack or Doach)
Donaghey (Donaghy)
Fergie (Fergy)
Fullerton (Fullarton)
Gibbons (Gibbens or Gibbon)
Gilfillan (Gilfillen or Gilfilland)
Greer (Grier)
Griffin (Griffen)
Harrold (Harrol or Arrol)
Hastings (Hasting)
Lecky (Leckey)
I will place a full inventory on the spreadsheet but you get the gist. I will also put a column for ‘Extras’ for the purpose.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 6:12 pm
On Ancestry,if you do an all-search on the left side of the page it breaks down twenty places where this name could be: Such as census and voter lists, BMD index, immigration, etc. For example, for Alexander Barber, there are Census records: 2,643, BMD: 5,000, immigration: 321. If you search census by year: 1840:4 pages, 1850:12 pages, 1860:14 pages, 1870:6 pages. Every time you narrow something down you get better results as long as you put in quality information. We’re going to get similar results for our single men.
John Burns: 1840:1,752, 1 in Ohio, 18 in NY, all-search 5,949
John Craig: all a 7,264
John Creighton: all – 127,737, 1840: 32 choices (10 results per page), 1850: 538, 1 in Philadelphia, 1860: 2 pages 15 results,
James Crilly all-7,976, 1840:none,1850 1 in NY, 1860 1 in Philadelphia, 1870 none
Do you want it broken down by census? Way too many possibilities and combinations!
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 8:43 pm
The interesting thing is the Watsons have to account for all of the labourers of the Ontario and John Stamp to make up their quota of fifty seven. They can’t afford to lose any, either that or they have to filch numbers from elsewhere which destroys their argument that the Irish labourers all came off a boat or boats from Derry that Summer. There is no room for error in their numbers if they hold to that position and that does not square with ‘any number of possibilities’ once you start going down the list on Ancestry?
Another thing, if you put Ireland as place of origin does that still churn out the same number of answers? I don’t believe for example that there were 538 John Creightons from Ireland in the US in 1850 with the same year of birth. We need to figure what is going on with Ancestry before we turn ourselves inside out?
Eileen Breen
December 16, 2012 at 12:13 am
All that means is that there are 538 versions of the name. Unless you put in US records only you will get choices from other places. The better the information you put in the more accurate the information is. Our issue is that we only have a name, birth year, and a place of origin that may or not be correct. Also the big thing is we know that they went to Philadelphia on the day they landed but what happened after this is unknown, thus many possibilities will also come up.
Don MacFarlane
December 16, 2012 at 5:43 am
Just ignore my blowing off steam about my frustration over Ancestry. I will nonetheless be directing my own efforts and energies in other ways, not to do with Ancestry, but I am glad they have one fan. You have turned up some nuggets of information and I suspect no-one else has ever used Ancestry in the innovative way that you have done so you may have started something.
I have started pulling together in the new Waxwings page the strands of the work that we have done so far. This page will be a dedicated research page and it holds duplicates of those posts which point towards ideas, lines of enquiry and directions that the research could take. I think we have enough of all of those to be getting on with and you will recognise a good number of these posts as being your own. In the course of cutting and pasting the stuff across, WordPress failed to cut the author’s name as well so I hope the explanatory acknowledgment at the top of the Wacwings page will suffice and meanwhile the original post remains on the FTT page.
I have attached to each post, wherever appropriate, a comment called a Corollary. A corollary is a proposition that follows on from a point or suggestion that has already been made, usually in the form of a testable or provable hypothesis. Feel free to add replies to the numerous questions that the Corollaries raise or reiterate. I am working my way slowly through and disentangling my thoughts as I go along so this exercise will take some time.
londonderry
December 11, 2012 at 10:34 am
I found move patterns in my research. I call them move patterns because they continued after the “emigration” move. They tended to be family, villages and churches on the first order, then trades and work related patterns. You definitely see this from the old country to America where they came in families, often around popular preachers like Craighill and settled in towns that they named after towns in the old country. But in America they moved again in families, not so much churches, because the farms, in my case couldn’t support the big families and they didn’t want to divide up the land. Why should they when there was land and a lot of it, just over the hill or just past the Ohio River. Just a theory and not proved, I think this continued until the communication patterns became active and mature. The people became more independent and self reliant. I am thinking Boone, railroads, rivers, wars and new territory deals. On my wife’s side we found that whole towns moved west to Iowa and Illinois at one time because of the offers of land for settlers/farmers in new state. In my mind this was a major motivator for the land locked and imperial driven family of Europe. I also think the Scotch component of most of these people…..adventuresome, risk taking, challenging, power weary, etc. is apparent. I am still sorting the Ulster component.
londonderry
December 10, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Great work Eileen, you are amazing. Do you ever sleep? My research and reading is consistent with yours albeit not as extensive. And it is consistent with my family who, as you may recall, moved from Derry in 1729 landing in Dover/Wilmington and bought a farm in Tinglestown just east of Harrisburg. I would add that Franklins folks, the Quakers, were very anxious to have these folks settle ever westward in Pa to hold off the Indians. Also, Virginia was more populated and than Pa and add in the P churches and “walla” you have settlements and streams of folks coming into the 1800s. These folks settled the mountains and were loyal to no one. The loyalists settled in the tidewaters. Another thing I noted in my research and visiting Donegal was that the famines as most of would cite for the emigration was caused in many cases by the British merchants in London dictating what the Ulsterites could grow and what they couldn’t. With diversity in crops, if one year there was a blight, then probably a different crop would make it. When the crops are limited, there is a reduced chance of this. My research also showed that the documentation of ships (and their passengers) PRIOR to the Revolution is very limited. So if you are finding ships in the early 1700s, I would be very interested. BTW Don, this may be the record for blog space on the internet!!!!!!!!
Mary Cornell
December 11, 2012 at 6:52 am
Terrific job on the timelines, Eileen. And Vic’s suggestions on how to incorporate them into the spreadsheets was great. My personal preference has always been the linear timeline (left to right read), but I like the color-coding idea for various events in the time line. It makes it easy to see simultaneous or overlapping events that are happening.
There was a footnote on the Aiken tree about Joseph Aiken.. Apparently, he is the brother who left for the States first in 1829. After he had established himself, he sent for the family who then followed in 1832. I wonder if this is the reason why the family’s place of origin is out of place with the others on the ship. And are there others whose place of origin is also out of place with the other passengers? Would they also have had a ‘scout’ who went ahead of the others to set up camp, so to speak, before the others arrived? I think it would be easier to pick out families than it would be to pick out the lone passenger, then backtrack to see if the name appears in earlier ships.
Commentary- Don, you have pinpointed the reason why I do not like Ancestry. It is the “locking up’ of records for financial gain. When I began my family research, most of the sites that are now on Ancestry were free to view on their individual sites. The owners of the sites are certainly within their rights to sell their information to Ancestry, but I see it as ‘selling out’ to the highest bidder. Public records, even those, indexed and researched by others, should not be hidden in a private depository, to be accessed only by those who are willing to pay the ransom. Ancestry looks like they are trying to do the same in the UK, but there are still outside sites that you can go to in order to find the information. Maybe this is why you do not have that to- and- fro feeling as much. You may go to a site and at some point reach a destination where you can page through without the constant returning to the search page and plugging in yet another name to search. There is also the difference of what has been placed behind money doors. A good example of this is Ulster Ancestry site which is a $ site, but the readily available information on the freepages is free to all and is information that can be extremely helpful in a search. This information would be behind the $ door at Ancestry. Greed is an ugly truth.
BTW Yes, Don I am diligently working away on the chapter for the book. The amount of information we have accumulated is monumental. Deciding what to put in and what to leave out is difficult. I have been constantly adding and subtracting, sometimes the same material. I have to keep in mind that the subject of the chapter is Duffy’s Cut and the Watson’s investigation. It is also difficult as we have not yet reached a definitive conclusion on the Watson investigation. Or more aptly put, we have not yet reached proof of a shoddy and reckless investigation put forth by a preening Dr. Watson and his brother. You may have to tone down my conclusion, Don. LOL
Don MacFarlane
December 11, 2012 at 8:14 am
I have just finished looking at ships from the year before and after 1832 to see if I could detect any chains of migration within families. I have to start taking a closer look at what I have now but some things jump out of the pages at me.
The quality of transcription of the names beggars disbelief at how shoddy it is. This in turn would become GIGO fodder for Ancestry – Garbage In / Garbage Out.
Around 40% of the waxwing names reappear in subsequent or previous voyages the year before or after, notably five new Patchells – none of them are picked up by Ancestry as immigrants into the US.
As a rule, I try to steer clear of politics but it should be noted that the majority of the waxwings forced to emigrate to survive were Protestants. Famine, oppression and persecution was never confined to one religion.
There is a peculiar pattern of families of five children or so below teenage years accompanied by father and spinster sister – otma mother in site.
There is a pattern of whole families emigrating in one fell swoopmand across three generations often.
There is a pattern of villages losing groups of young people in their late teens and early twenties of both sexes in bunches of 6-10 at a time, all different names, therefore presumably unrelated for the most part. One of these was Tory Island, a Gaelic speaking island (still) well off the coast of Donegal. One of the modern-day residents does paintings and I have posted one on the Townland page as a header. This Tory exodus was one of the few departures for PA from the wilder, more remote and truly Celtic parts of Donegal or anywhere else.
Eileen Breen
December 12, 2012 at 12:14 am
I remember reading that women in Ireland were not as valued as the men. They were a burden on a large family because women didn’t have jobs or professions early on and their families would pay for the passage to America. Maybe this was similar with children. Maybe they sent them to America with an aunt who may have been coming for herself. Children, both boys and girls, as well as woman probably were indentured. They had to stay on the ship until someone agreed to negotiate a contract for their labor. The longer they remained on the ship without a contract the more likely they would be indentured. The Master would pay for their passage and negotiate a contract for their labor. Woman cost $70.00, Children were $60.00 and men were $80.00 depending on skill level. In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the indentured system continued to 1829. In other parts of Pennsylvania it may have lasted much longer. In the mid 1800s a family member who came first assisted their relatives to come over, slowly dissolving the free labor system for immigrants. For the African slaves the free labor system would be a part of the South much longer.
If you get some townland that you think might fit for some of our single people I can add it to the profile and maybe it will spark something.
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 9:48 am
Perhaps we can concentrate for now on the names that offer the best short-term prospects to build up a better picture. I suggest for names A-C:
Aikens
Baird
Ballantines
William Barber
Brislands
Byrnes
Cooks
Craig
Cully
The Faughanvale Contingent
Creightons
Culbertsons
I will go back to your earlier instructions how to add material to trees in Ancestry, which I have not attempted yet, and I will do it in batches starting with the names above. The names that will be left out for now from this exercise will then form a reserve list which will be put to one side. In the case of surnames A-C, the names that will be given no further FFT for the time being are – Arthur, Allison, Barr, Barton, Birney, Blackwell, Boal, Brigham, Buchanan, Burns, Bradley, Caldwell, Carlin, Carrigan, Childs, Cole, Cochrane, Conway, Cowan, Crawford, Cussen.
If the same sampling quota holds for the rest of the names, this exercise should end up with about 60 names which should be much more manageable. All of the labourers from the John Stamp will be on the main list as of right.
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 3:42 pm
I have only just noticed but I think that Mary made some reference to this before, some of these people (on the John Stamp only unfortunately) are bracketed together by their baggage which points to who travelled together. Family units, obviously, but also as follows:
Hugh Foster/Robert Livingstone
John McAdam/Barney Rice
Rosannah McQuillen/Adam Diamond
Ewings/Robert Skilton
William McCormick/Richard Kane
George Quigley/Michael Farren
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 11:23 pm
Google Searches
I have started doing Google searches to find any people that have been on-line already, even going back a number of years, looking for our waxwings. I have placed weblinks on the Country Folks page and will syatematically work throught the names from the Duffytemp database. I have merely posted what could be promising links but I have no studied them yet. If I find items of interest in any of the links I will also place the links on the Family Trees of Ancestry.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 1:21 am
Livingstone/ Foster: Too many choices for each, not listed together anywhere. Robert M. Livingstone: Joiner, listed as a carpenter in Johnstown, PA. Several Livingstone’s live near him. Several entries for a Robert Livingstone: box maker in Philadelphia. Few other professions that don’t match.
Hugh Foster: weaver. 1896: upholsterer in Philadelphia but he would be 83 yr. In a ancestry tree living in NY. There’s a death in 1885 in Chicago, Ill., death in Pittsburg, PA in 1890. Hugh Foster death in Ballyshannon, Ireland in 1880. Hugh Foster in army dies in 1835 in Coraopolis, PA.
i put on their profile that they came together.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 2:08 am
John McAleer (McAdam b 1812) d. 6 Sept 1896 Delaware County, PA- Methodist. Barney Rice 1860 watertown, Jefferson, NY laborer (ours is a weaver). Multiple entries for each in military. Nothing promising.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 7:53 am
In general it would be important to keep a record of the ‘Too Many Choices’, not the details of the choices, just the message. That way, we could compare how often that message occurs for the Duffys Cut folk, or more generally for all males. Then we would have a fair good indication if the Duffys Cut candidates never presented with too many choices and were untraceable therefore possibly murdered as inferred by the Watsons. In other cases, meaning not John Stamp males but non-John Stamp females, we don’t need to expend effort on tracing all of these people, just the ones that we are interested in because they throw light on some aspect of the times they were living in.
In this recent example, the subjects are of interest and are worth looking into further despite the ‘Too Many Choices’ scenario because Foster, McAleer, Ewings and Creighton were all Duffys Cut fodder. The reason I got prematurely excited over the ‘discovery’ that some of these people shared chests – premature because I then discovered that the John Stamp was the only ship that recorded shared baggage? – was because that discovery would allow me to be even surer how reliable was my triangulation method of locating parishes and townlands of origin. On the limited info I got, my triangulation method would indeed appear to be relatively sound.
Going back to something Mary said, where did Duffy get all his 57 from, not just from the John Stamp. I should put an extra column into the Excel spreadsheet to signify Too Many Choices and colour code them. From what you have found already, Eileen, could you send me a list of the Too Many Choices you have found already, indicating preferably (not the headcount) just the number of pages that Ancestry threw up. If that is a chore, just the names will do. It occurs to me that if we address the too many choices issue, we could through that method nail the Watsons pretty quickly.
Just to recap where I am with all of this:
a) I have just about completed tracing or at least narrowing down probable townlands of origin. I will insert these into the spreadsheet, colour code for degree of certainty and send you a refreshed copy.
b) I have started putting comments into Ancestry.com for all of the people in the trees for whom I have some extra details and that includes townland of origin.
c) I have started trawling the internet by Google searching with keywords. Computer-literate armchair genealogists may have put stuff on-line already on waxwing names and this is proving to be quite productive already. I have not sifted though the material I have collated (posted on on the Country Folk page) yet as I am still gathering.
d) Feel free to insert in the spreadsheet any info from the US side as per the column headings, or in any other columns you wish to insert.
e) I intend to contact when we are ready the Philadelphia Donegal Association at
http://www.philadonegal.com/
I have a hunch that once all that is completed it will be a case of sitting back to see who takes the bait, just like the pond analogy, and the bait will have to be periodically refreshed. Like I said before, this is a formidable task and I have in my head a five-year timeframe. It should have gathered up enough steam by Fall 2014 to be of use to Eileen if at that point she wants to have discussions with BU about research.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 12:43 pm
Only two ships had laborers: John Stamp and Ontario. Only one other ship,the Prudence, had a laborer and the Asia had none. When you add the number of the laborers from the two ships I believe the number was around 56-57. Also all the people on the memorial are from the John Stamp sixteen in totl 16 laborers.
On page 68-69 from the book there were two pairings: William Devine with a sister Elizabeth and her son John. William Putehill and David Patchill from Donegal (spelling from the book). 11 from Donegal, 3 from Tyrone, 2 Derry. 1 woman and 1 child.
FFT: Should we do a triangulation method of where people may have settled in Pennsylvania? – People with a similar name settling around Philadelphia. There is an article called: From Rostrevor to Raphoe: An Overview of Ulster Names In Pennsylvania 1700-1820 By Peter Gilmore
I’ll check out the ‘too many choices list’mand get back. It’s maybe easier to put up who we found because most of the single men had too many choices except one where we found a family tree on Ancestry. It’s been easier to find a grouping of a family.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 2:15 pm
The more I read, the more I get hot under the collar over the stuff that the Watsons have written about the Irish in their book ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’. As Mary has said, their work has been lazy, slapdash and sensationalist, not to mention very misrepresentative and disrespectful of the Northern Irish. I do not use the term Scots-Irish (a recent invention anyway) or Ulster-Scots because our waxwings were not all of that ethnic and cultural background.
It will take me quite a while to plough through all of it but even what I have posted of linked material so far on the ‘Country Folks’ page – and I am not even halfway there – makes it clear that these people were far from being the yokels they were made out to be. Or to paraphrase Ralph Waldo Emerson when he wrote:
‘What was behind them and what was in front of them was nowhere near comparable to what was within them’.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Medals of Honour to Irishmen
Indian Campaigns
http://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/citations3.html#M
Letter B
Richard Barrett
James Bell
Edward Branagan
James Brogan
James Brophy
James Brown
Patrick Burke
Richard Burke
Edmond Butler
Dennis Byrne
And the list goes on. For those with surnames with the letter B alone the Irish were awarded a quarter of the medals. I’m not Irish and it makes even me proud! A similar story can be told for the Crimean War where a disproportionate number of Irishmen were awarded the Victoria Cross. Supposedly, according to the Watsons, immigrant Irish were looked down on by US citizens. Excuse me??
Also note from the surnames that none of these gallant men were Scots-Irish.
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 12:40 pm
I will be tidying up the FTT page very soon as it has got a bit top-heavy right enough. There are several thousand posts on that page compared to the other pages that are very much more modest. The FTT page has really also turned into a Duffys Cut page but I have no problems with that as it has got a clear sense of purpose now rather than just being a talkshop. I feel that the chapter that Mary is working on will complete the ‘Sea is Wide’ and you chapter ‘John 1678′ amongst others will see the light of day very soon now. As soon as I get receipt of Mary’s chapter I will contact Liz Rushen for her chapter and to push ahead with publication. I figure the other side of Easter now to wrap it all up. It has been a long time coming but worth the wait as the US side of things will now get a good airing and that was missing. Mary, I forgot to mention that the other chapters are 12,000- 20,000 words long!
londonderry
December 10, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Don, when I worked on the timelines before, I tried to put myself in the environment which impacted the people I was researching. I did this because I wanted to “feel” what they were experiencing and why they might have made certain decisions. This has a macro (historical) and a micro (day to day conditions) dimensions. I’m sure from your background will get a sniff here and there of the “Skinnerian” approaches. I say this because the title timeline seems too inanimate. BTW, I am hoping that you guys select the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s. The great migration was in the 1700s but the periods before shaped the migration and the post period continued the movement. I would love to get my hands on the model Mary says her brother uses. I like to use models in my consulting to make sure I think completely through the problems. I would use a Xcel spreadsheet with several pages at this point but there may be a better way to do it digitally.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Great timelines Vic! Thanks for this!. I do sleep occasionally. The timeline I got from Roots. I think I Googled: Timelines of immigration from Ireland to PA w/ a few additions to it from an article I found on Ancestry on the five waves of immigration.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 1:32 am
Timeline: What time period do we want to cover? There is great history for the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s and 1900s, for Ireland, the US and Pennsylvania that could be useful when writing our social timeline.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 7:08 am
Perish the thought but is this where the Watsons as historians have advantage over us? Bill Watson is a History professor who gives nothing away. When asked politely but obliquely, he chooses to shed no light on how he knows that the Duffy’s Cut crew were murdered en-masse or died of cholera. Has he got some historical trick up his sleeve that us amateurs are just starting to tumble to?
The idea for the book, ‘The Sea is Wide’, was that historians and family historians could come together within the covers of a book and show two sides of a coin. Historians paint with a broad brush. Unless they are biographers, they write about individual people to illustrate the period of history they cover. Family historians rarely but if at all write about history and then only in a very cursory way as a backcloth to the family tree being researched. Even programmess such as ‘Who Do You Think You Are’ give the nod and little else to history. Certainly, the family researcher touches base with historians in these programmes but the key and starting point every single time seems to be the snippets of information held within the family that allows the programme to ‘Pass Go’.
If I understand you right, you suggest that an in-depth knowledge of the history of the lifetime of the waxwings will find the historical records that could locate them? Or one could become in effect a historian of the period and be no further forward? I guess if you decide to contact BU these are questions that you will have to address head on. If you do a SMARTER exercise right now it might help to answer them. For now, my impressions for what they are worth are that the US BDM records are too dispersed and are too full of holes. The whole caboodle has been taken over lock, stock and barrel for the purposes of financial gain by Ancestry.com who have made a complete hotch-potch of them. By comparison, if I decided to locate emigrants to Australia, provided they were not convicts as their records were thrown into Sydney Harbour, I would find it a very simple exercise.
In short, I will do an analysis or exposure of the inadequacies of the Ancestry system. It claims to be the repository of BDM details of all immigrants to the US. I will carry out that exercise once I have finished dredging what I can out of the Irish sources. This is why I prepared the Excel spreadsheet. Between the spreadsheet and the vignettes there should be no need for the ‘back-and-forwards’ that Mary mentions. It certainly works for me but I have not started on the US sheet so it would not be of benefit to Mary or yourself yet. In the meantime, I believe you can download a template from Ancestry that cuts out the to-ing and fro-ing?
The concept of using historical insights has merit and it may well prove to be the finish-up to all of this. But it is for later, not for now. I also believe we have enough material, thanks to your own good work in Ancestry, to write a chapter for ‘The Sea is Wide’. I think Mary is tackling that as we speak? BTW I place a greater belief in Google than I do in Ancestry which is why I am drilling down to find as many keywords for Google searches for people ‘out there’. My Derry site has never been successful in getting these people in any numbers to post their queries and that is a nut I have still to crack. Loads of searches, certainly – over 24,000 this year, but hardly anyone leaves a message. If these things could be joined up we might get somewhere.
In brief, I think we need to keep in mind the size and the difficulty of this project which has almost 200 subjects being traced. I doubt whether any such kind of genealogical exercise has been carried out before. The beauty of it is that the snags and pitfalls that we come across with the large numbers of people can be identified and recorded and be valuable information for any family researcher looking for just a handful of people. I also try to keep in mind that a family researcher typically has been working on their project for at least 25 years. This is why I believe they deserve the admiration of professional historians. Luckily the historians in my book had the good sense to appreciate that the marriage of minds could be worthwhile.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 12:12 pm
On Ancestry they also have a large catalog of historical information, not just BMD records. I still think it could be interesting to weave different time lines of Ireland and US as well as Pennsylvania.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 1:38 pm
So do you want us to stop looking at the ship manifests and trying to find people. Are we done w/ it?
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 1:41 pm
I will plug away a bit longer with them to triangulate the names.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Other Ships to PA from Derry circa 1827-37
Asia 1828
Vernon 1832
Adam Lodge 1834
Ann 1834
Dorothy 1834
Edmond 1834
Ellergill 1834
Garland 1834
Jessie 1834 (Belfast)
Kinkella 1834
Macedonia 1834
Phoenix 1834
Courage 1836
Emmanuel 1836
Derry to Wilmington
Lady of the Lake 1831
Leander 1831
Inez 1831
Cupid 1833
Mary Cummings 1833
Cruikston Castle 1833
Lady of the Lake 1833
PA held its own as a port during the early 1830s, peaked in 1834, then it all fizzled out when other destinations replaced it viz NYC and Boston. Prior to 1832 and concurrently, Wilmington NC was very popular (it is 500 miles from PA) but it fizzled out as well. What was that all about? NYC was worse hit with cholera than PA so it wasn’t that which put people off. In other words there was a stampede into PA and then that became a wide berth.
Summary of Voyages Derry to US
1803 to 1812 – PA 10; NYC 15; Baltimore 3.
1813 to 1822 – NYC 1.
1823 to 1832 – PA 5; NYC 2; Wilmington 3
1833 to 1842 – PA 12; Wilmington 6
1843 to 1852 – PA 3; NYC 4
The peak year of sailings to PA was 1834 when they doubled compared to year before and after. Thereafter sailings from NI (Derry and Belfast) fizzled out. 3-4 sailings per year was the average apart from 1834, the boom year. Tnere were no sailings to PA in 1833 for a year after the cholera outbreak. Any relatives seeking to join up with Ulster emigrants would have had to sail to Wilmington and perhaps not bothered to trail back to PA.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm
5 waves of immigration to PA:
1717-1719: 5,000 Ulster men from NI immigrated in 12-13 ships. In 1717, the Marquis Of Donegal leased on his lands in Antrim expire. Those unable to pay the high rents were evicted. Between 1717-1719, 100 vessels sailed from NI with over 25,000 of them being Presbyterian.
1725-1729: Poverty was the dominant theme. In Ireland there were not enough crops harvested. Lack of jobs meant no money to purchase food or supplies. High taxes and landlords raised rents. Those not able to pay their rent were evicted. Those out of work were at risk for starvation.
1740-1741: Saw the first signs of emigration of the Scotch-Irish in America to Virginia, North Carolina and S. Carolina. Irish in south-east PA started to have political influence. 1740, famine in Ireland when over 400,000 people died. 1740-1750, there was a large exodus from Ireland to America.
1728: 1 in 10 people from Ulster paid their own passage. The Irish valued owning their own land, religious and political freedom and obtaining social prominence were factors that attracted residents from NI to America.
1775: 2,000 NI residents immigrated to America. The choice where to immigrate to was influenced by geography. Virginia and the North and South Carolina were not a choice for the Irish as these states had large plantations and slavery. Maryland was set up to be a home for Roman Catholics. Presbyterians wanted small farms. The middle colonies and New England were the best choices. Gov. William Penn encouraged the Irish to settle in Pennsylvania. An invitation to the Irish people from the Secretary also attracted them to Pennsylvania. The Delaware River was the entry point to Pennsylvania and to the Frontier and migration to the West. It is said an Irishman is not comfortable until he has moved at least twice. The first counties to be settled by the Irish were Chester, Philadelphia and New Castle. Emigration continued north of Maryland, establishing the counties of York, Cumberland and Bedford by 1775.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 1:01 pm
The story that was found where a family was looking for their family in Ireland could be a human interest story: Finding Miss McGhee. From our first impressions of her by looking at the spelling of her name, to where she may have come from. Occupations she may have had, reasons why she might have decided to immigrate using a historical time line in US and Ireland to the pitfalls of using BMD records, map software, and family member trees. Identifying the pitfalls of not being able to find her. Maybe identifying other avenues to pursue if you still want to look.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 1:39 pm
BTW The method I used to identify the places of origin from the ship manifests was as follows:
Sticking to one ship at a time, I looked at clusters of people, with these clusters being defined and demarcated by family units alongside them. Assuming that it was an anxiety-provoking time, quite apart from the natural sociability of the Irish, I looked at lone passengers and who they may have hung out with, even if they had just met them. More likely I assumed that clusters would have known each other from their own townlands as well. So, for example, if you had a cluster of three young males, bounded on each side by family units, I assumed that they were in each other’s company. This turned out to be the case more often than not and with this method I garnered sixty odd names that I was able to locate and I am still not finished. This was done simply with Griffiths Valuation by a triangulation method. If I found three passengers with waxwing names that had only one parish in common, out of perhaps six possibles, I assumed they came from that parish. It is not fool-proof I know but it is a fairly good bet.
Eileen Breen
December 20, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Should we put there relationships on ancestry? I was trying to put up known associates on their profile but this doesn’t seem to see this filter just the jobs. When I look for the person I try to see if they are neighbors on the census records. I put up some of the information you put up on the profile page on ancestry. I want to get through each ship at least 1x.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm
The idea of the timeline is starting grow on me as it may provide some clues. I will take that on with regards to the Irish end of things, basing it upon contemporaneous accounts in the Press viz Belfast Newsletter, Derry Journal and Strabane Morning News. Once I have that all gathered together I will send it to Vic as he is a dab hand at converting data into timelines. I have no ambitions to be a historian so I will keep whatever I find at a factual reporting level. As I said before it will probably require a good bit of sifting as much of the material in the old papers was political and imperialistic propaganda – not much has changed there then!
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 6:30 pm
Timelines 1600′s to Present: 1.Historic Events: Irish History, US History, PA History, Irish Leaders, US leaders, PA leaders,
2. Irish literature, speeches Timeline in US, Literary History in PA, as it pertains to Rights and Freedom for the Irish, Immigration, Irish in America United Irishman, Public opinion in Ireland, US and PA concerning the Irish
3. Presidential or Political Parties in Ireland, US and PA as they relate to Irish immigrant and rights of Irish to join in politics and own land and the Democratic party in particular,
4. Wars, Conflicts, Uprisings, Legislation in Ireland/ US/ PA affecting Irish,
5. Waves Of immigration, 6.The occupations, How they got to US, Indenture, Irish funding the passage, slavery in Ireland and US,
7. Religion as it pertains to some churches being dis-established and others are started and emigration: the expansion to the Frontier and ultimately the West.
8.Transportation timelines especially Canals, RR and our men of Duffy’s Cut.
9. Diseases. Yellow Fever (Under the yellow flag and the Lazaretta. Cholera- 3 waves of it etc how disease, poverty, decreased economy affected the Irish and public opinion.
10. Present day Irish in US, PA and Ireland on the issue of education, politics, immigration back to Ireland until banks failed. Still the need for immigration. Irish Times has a website helping those who want to immigrate. Our stories we found from ancestry can be plugged into the timeline as well as technology that is used to locate them.
1603: Accession Of James I in England. England Enforces laws against the Irish.
1606: Lands in six counties in Ulster confiscated by the British.
1607: Flight Of Earls O’Donnell and O’Neill To Spain.
1608: Plantation Of Derry
1640-1659: England is engaged in a Civil War. Oliver Cromwell defeats Royalist King Charles I and
the Parliamentary Army. Cromwell rules England when England becomes a
commonwealth and a Protectorate
1641: Great Catholic Rebellion led by Rory O’Moore. Return of confiscated lands and the British
are driven out of Northern Ireland. Catholics hold 59% of the land in Ireland.
1646: Massachusetts approves a law that religious heresy is punishable by death.
1649: Cromwell kills 2,000 men in Dublin and confiscates lands in Munster, Leinster and Ulster.
1650: Catholic landowners exiled to Connaught.
1652: Rhode Island declares slavery is illegal.
1656: 600,000 Irish Catholics are forced into slavery in Barbados and the Carribean as a result of
British rule in the colony.
1658: Cromwell dies. Population of Ireland decreases by 2/3 under his reign. from 1.5 million
inhabitants to 500,000.
1660: England approves the Navigation Act limiting goods being imported and exported from it’s
colonies. Only British ships can be used to transport goods. Charles II ascends the English
throne.
1663: King Charles II establishes a colony in the Carolina’s.
1664: New york becomes a British colony. Legislation passes that stipulates lifelong servitude for
slaves in US.
1672: 6,000Irish boys and woman sold as slaves in the British colony of Jamaica.
1688: James II defeated in England. Gates of Derry closed as James’ troops attempt to enter Derry.
1689: Siege and Relief of Derry.
1690: King William’s War hostilities between England and France spread to NY. Royal African Trade Co. looses monopoly over slavery.
1690: William Of Orange defeats James II at The Battle Of The Boyne.
1692-1829: Exclusion of Catholics from Parliament and Government.
1695: Anti-Catholic Penal laws introduced. Irish Rc hold 14% of the land in Ireland.
1698: 1st pamphlet written against England making laws for Ireland.
1702: Queen Anne ascends the throne: “Queen Anne’s war in the American colonies lasts
for 11 years and ends in 1713.
1714: Irish Catholics hold 7 of the land in Ireland.
1740: The forgotten Famine.
1775: Henry Grattan is leader of the Patriot Party in Ireland. Irish leader Daniel O’Connell is born.
1782: Irish Parliament won legislative independence.
1798: Revolution 1798. Irish leader Daniel O’Connell becomes an attorney.
1800: Act Of Union. Goes into effect 1 Jan, 1801.
1803: Robert Emmett’s conviction, trial and execution.
1829: Catholic Emancipation. Tithe wars begin.
1830: Last King Of Ireland dies in Dublin Castle
1837: Accession of Queen Victoria
1840: Daniel O’Connell’s Repeal Association is formed.
1842: “The Nation” newspaper is founded in Ireland.
1843: Daniel O’Connell holds meetings for Repeal Of Union.
1845-1849: The Great Famine. Charles Trevelyan, Head Of the Treasury and Sir Robert Peel,
imports Indian corn
1846: In April depots are opened to sell the corn by summer they are closed. Repeal Of The
Corn Laws.
1846: Failure of the potato harvest in August. by October, 1st deaths from starvation.
1848-1849: Worst Years Of The Famine: Trevelyan: Soup Kitchen Act. Trevelyan writes a book
on The Famine.
1848: Irish population is decreased by 2 million from death or immigration.
1858: Fenian Brotherhood founded in the US and and the Irish Republican Brotherhood is
established in Ireland.
1865: End of the American Civil War
1867: Fenian Rising
1869: PM Gladstone dis-establishes the Protestant Church in Ireland.
1870: Gladstone’s 1st Land Act
1875: Charles Stewart Parnell elected MP in County Meath
1879: Threat of a famine. Evictions. establishment of the Irish National League
1879-1882: Land war
1881: Gladstone’s 2nd Land Act
1882: Kilmainham “Treaty”, Parnell is released from prison.
1886: 1st Home Rule Bill
1891: Parnell loses 3 by-elections in Ireland and dies in October.
1893: 2nd Home Rule Bill
1903: Land Purchase Act
1906: Liberals win the election
1912: 3rd Home Rule Bill
1914: WWI
1916: Easter Rising in Dublin. May 3-12 executions.
1917: De Valera wins in East Clare
1918: End WWI
1919-1921: Anglo-Irish Treaty. Irish War Of Independence
1922: Civil War between Free State Army and the IRA
1923: End of the Civil war
1926: De Valera founded the Fianna Fail
1932: Fianna Fail wins the general election
1937: Constitution Of Eire: claims 32 counties
1939: WWII: Ireland is neutral
Just some Ireland topics we covered. if we could weave some of the other timelines it might be interesting.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 9:33 pm
typo: 1714: Should say: Irish Catholics own 7% of the land in Ireland.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Railroad Timeline:
1804: “Golden Age of railroads” also known as the “age of the iron Horse” begins. Richard Trevithick hitches a steam engine to a coal wagon over 9 miles of track in England.
1824: George Stevenson builds first public railroad in England.
1825: Stockton and Darlington Railroad is established in England linking 2 towns 20 miles apart.
1825: Directors of the Hudson Canal Company sent 2 engineers to investigate the steam locomotive. They order 4 locomotives at a cost of $12, 515.58. One of them was the Stourbridge Lion . It was the first locomotive to run in America. Canal boats on the Eire Canal was a vital transportation system.
1827: A survey is initiated to plan the track location for the Columbia and Pennsylvania Railroad.
1829: Stourbridge Lion runs on 16 miles of track in Pennsylvania. It was used to pull coal from the mines from Carbondale to Honesdale. The 7 ton locomotive was deemed to heavy.
1830: The steam locomotive: The Best Friend Of Charleston was built in NY and the South Carolina Canal and Railroad Company built a 127 mile track from Charleston to Hamburg, Georgia. It’s first run was 25 Dec 1830. It could pull 50 passengers in a half-dozen cars at 20 miles per hour.
1831: In Pennsylvania the Pennsylvania Railroad made a contract to build a railroad track on mile 59.
1850: 11 states had granted railroad charters. Over 1,000 miles of track were used.
1860′s during the American Civil war both the confederate and the Union armies realized that the railroad’s were vital to their supplying and transporting their troops.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 2:05 pm
From the updated name list the other day:
Elizabeth McKnight: There are a few trees with this name. From the Census: Reading, Berks, PA; Washington, Jefferson, PA; Allegheny, PA; Delaware, Juanita, PA.
James Nance: Found nothing in PA. I saw a few states with that name: Ill, NC, Indiana, but nothing looked promising.
Peter Diermott: Nothing coming up at all for him.
John Carland: Nothing for him. Civ War marker in NH, a few family trees but nothing promising.
James McKinney: d. 1878 in Philadelphia ward 26; also a McCanney tree with similar birth year, perhaps a misspelling of the name.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 8:17 pm
From the Asia: Eliza McNamee
Lots of McNamees in Philadelphia, only one Elizabeth married to a James. The last name is probably her married name. She’s a spinster on the ship’s list. One in OH, one in NY.
William Hill: Farmer. Only listed as a weaver in two censuses. He came with a brother James Hill. Can’t find them together. In 1860 W. Hill is a plasterer. Other censuses for James in Philadelphia birth dates don’t match for the occupation.
Sterling Family: I tried lots of combinations for them but I can’t find any census that has them all in it. James aged 30 might be the father of Mary Ann aged 2 and Sarah Jane aged 3. Isabelle may be his sister aged 24. I tried Isabelle as the mother too. Mary aged 50 is a spinster so she may be an Aunt to James and Isabelle.
Alice McSwine: There are McSwines in Philadelphia and in surrounding PA but no Alice. Note: McSwine’s Gun: Located in Donegal: A cavern. Photo of a drawing of this place and a description of it. It can be googled also. Maybe the name is from Donegal. Ship manifest says she is from Ireland, no townland or county given.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Mary and Andrew Morrison: too many choices.
William Balentine: William R. married Andrews in Philadelphia, no date with the record. No good choices.
Samuel Adams: 1850 death date in Philadelphia: Cholera. Kensington Methodist Church.
Mary Black: too many choices.
Didn’t find anyone today
Eileen Breen
December 9, 2012 at 1:04 am
FFT: I saw a book online about managing a genealogy research project. A few ideas came up:
To do a journal of negative results, do a correspondence log. If a book or periodical was used, reference it (Ancestry has a place for it), and do a research journal. This might be helpful if Mary does the story on pitfalls and success with using the mapping software on ancestry. I’m still working out the details for the class etc.. There is supposed to be a numbering system for each ancestor depending on status in the family. On Ancestry we can put in relationships so I’m not sure we need it.
Mary Cornell
December 9, 2012 at 8:15 am
Did the first run through of the Asia and have come to the conclusion that most of the passengers were put into the witness protection program when they landed in Philadelphia. Not very many leads, but did find two different possibilities for the Bradley brothers. Possibility they went to New Jersey, but then it looks like they returned to Pennsylvania. Or these are different Bradleys altogether.
The most interesting family that I found was the McFate family who seem to be in Sugar Creek, Venango County, PA. I found a Letitia McFate married to a John Culbertson who are on the ship with the McFate family. In the 1850 census, there is a Jane and Sara McFate living with John Culbertson in Sugar Creek. Several other McFates are living in the same general vicinity of each other in Sugar Creek.
If you want to see how not to do research, you need to check out the Rootsweb family trees that have been put up for the McFate family. It is not just one contributor, but they all have put together a jumbled mess of family members. So either they were copying off someone who hadn’t a clue about