Passage West
The leaders of the United Irishmen Rebellion, but only one Catholic amongst them – Dr William James MacNevin, sitting centre with scroll in his hand; perhaps it was the statement he was required to make in exchange for his life.
VISITORS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT THIS IS NO LONGER A FULLY INTERACTIVE WEBSITE BUT FEEL FREE TO BROWSE AND COMMENT.
In a sane world, there must be a limit to what a person would sacrifice for their country – witness the poll taken at a recent Ard Fheis when a poll was taken of committed Sinn Fein supporters on the subject of a United Ireland. Predictably, 96% of delegates were in favour of it but that dropped to a surprising 66% if they thought they had to pay for it viz, have a drop in their living standards, what with the collapse of the Celtic Tiger
Here is the beginnings of a template for the Duffy’s Cut project for ready reference, mostly spaces at present which will soon be filled.
HOT NEWS
If you like the content of this site, treat yourself to the ebook ‘The Sea is Wide – New Celts from Old Horizons’ which is now available at no cost as a fundraising effort for a Derry-based but world-wide children’s charity (£2.00 minimum donation to Children in Crossfire would be most welcome).
http://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/75880/120/the-sea-is-wide-new-celts-from-old-horizons
Derryweb 2014 
celticknot226
January 24, 2014 at 9:34 pm
Robert Taylor (Robert Taylor and Co) was from Baltimore, MD. A letter in the Hegley Archives from Lommott duPont dated 1819 to E.I. duPont asked his bosses advice to recommend Robert Taylor as agent for duPont’s munitions. The letter stated Robert Taylor was of good character and was worth $200,000-$300,000. His father William H. Taylor (William H. Taylor and Company) was the principal in the firm. Robert Taylor had an office on Eutaw and Lombard Streets near Baltimore Port. They also had offices on Market Street, Philadelphia near the Philadelphia Port.
I was wondering if any of our searches should look at Baltimore. Perhaps some of the emigration schemes included Baltimore, MD. The three ports, Philadelphia PA, Baltimore MD and Wilmington DE don’t seem very far from each other.
Eileen Breen
January 4, 2014 at 9:55 pm
Hi Patrick:
The LDS info seems promising. I’m glad you’re still in the loop. I was just thinking about you. Keep us in touch if you find something.
We have been talking about Robert Taylor, agent and relation to James Corscaden. Simon Elliot, a relative to Robert Taylor, contacted Don. I might have found a manifest going to Quebec. An Isabella McCorkle was on it and the ship master was a Young who may also be related to Corscaden. Corscaden married into the McCorkles.
Eileen Breen
January 4, 2014 at 9:59 pm
FFT: Mary and I put up a ‘History of Ireland’ page on Facebook. We’re up to about the 1800s.
Eileen Breen
January 5, 2014 at 3:18 am
FFT: I was thinking about John Ruddy and others: Perhaps the laborers were registered as day laborers, fisherman, farmers or other household tasks. Perhaps laborers was not their only job if they had to register in a town hall in order to be placed into different groups who then met transportation to a job site and did a job for a day or seasonal tasks.
maccarleo
June 30, 2013 at 6:27 pm
It is odd that Don cannot find anything on Ancestry and Eileen finds a few items. Is the Ancestry search engine completely unreliable? If there is a secret formula to its usage, how are you going to know if you have reached a true dead-end? Possibility this was the Watsons’ Achilles Heel??
Eileen Breen
July 1, 2013 at 12:28 pm
At first I didn’t find anything on Lappin. I went back to the emails someone wrote on Ancestry. I had to do a lot of searches before I found anything. A lot of what was in his emails were guesses such as immigrating in 1847 (I’m not sure from where he came. I tried Liverpool and Londonderry), He also talked about Thomas Lappin living in other states. I don’t think that’s true. I couldn’t find the Naturalization record. Perhaps I have the wrong state.
Also with regards to the names of the children, I haven’t found a document that listed all of them together. The mothers name may be Mary Lucille, Mary Louise, Louisa (also translated as Lucia) in a St Anne’s record which I haven’t seen yet. Their daughter Catherine “Katy” may have been married with the name Ganhagan? or Gattivan? There were other Thomas Lappins and other Mary Lappins which may have been where he got confused. So I’m not sure that what we have is correct.
PATRICK Ruddy
January 1, 2014 at 2:55 am
Hi
Been a while since I heard from you. Not had much to say on this but I have found on LDS website two John Ruddy/Roddys living in PA re 1850 census who could well fit the profile of John in the Duffy’s Cut project. One was born in 1814 and the other in 1812, both were born in Ireland but so far I have not got any further with that.
Waxwing
June 30, 2013 at 6:04 am
Mary has unearthed a Thomas Lappan from a Family Forum in Ancestry.
http://genforum.genealogy.com/lappan/messages/10.html
The only connection with our project is that he was sponsored by Philip Duffy. Interestingly, even with all the detail entered and even though Lappan is already in their system, an Ancestry search can’t find him! Enough said?
maccarleo
June 16, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Forgot to add-
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/passengerlists/1819_36stlawrence.shtml
Eileen Breen
June 16, 2013 at 12:22 pm
I looked again at McPhilemy and Leitch families. The names appear in PA and Ontario. There are a lot of choices for some of the names. I couldn’t find the families together.
Eileen Breen
June 15, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Perhaps we can check our waxwings in Toronto and Quebec and see if we get anything.
Waxwing
June 15, 2013 at 3:37 pm
If you have the Canadian Ancestry as well that would be great. Perhaps if you limit yourself to super-waxwing names I posted yesterday in the first instance?
Waxwing
June 24, 2013 at 6:59 am
My wife tells me she is going off for a month to Australia, which leaves me with time on my hands!
During that month I will spend some time going through 1832 local papers at my leisure.
I’ve lost track of my azimuth or sense of direction as to where we are with our research.
Have we decided Ancestry is a ‘beaten docket’ and that, short of checking papers in Archives, we have no way of proving or disproving the survival of the waxwings post-Duffy’s Cut?
Eileen Breen
June 24, 2013 at 2:25 pm
Mary and I can help you get your azimuth back! If you have time the newspaper archives might prove worthwhile! Ancestry only had limited issues so your trip to the archives could be worth the trip. Perhaps you’ll find something we didn’t on line. If they had newspapers from Donegal it might be interesting to see if they have any ads for weavers or if they mentioned anything about who hired them.
maccarleo
June 26, 2013 at 2:38 am
I have also felt a little lost at sea, or rather like I am spinning my wheels and getting nowhere. I set aside the chapter because I began to feel frustrated with it and thought I needed to refocus on the objective and then return to it. My feeling right now is that we have accumulated so much information that needs to be sorted out first before we can move forward.
I don’t think we have lost the azimuth, but have lost how to get there. Oddly enough, the off-topic articles that Eileen and I find seem to help me focus on the waxwings. So maybe we need to alternate between the wide angle lens and the microscope.
Waxwing
June 26, 2013 at 7:18 am
I have already collated the best bits of what we have gathered, although I need to update it, and they are in the Waxwings to Philadelphia page.
Waxwing
June 26, 2013 at 6:53 pm
Selected Counterpoints to the Watsons
Extracted from Waxwing Page
1. Great majority of passengers on the four ships were Protestant (50-70%).
2. Many of the waxwings were poor cousins of Scottish nobility.
3. Land in PA and neighbouring states was being sold off at peppercorn rates.
4. Most waxwings came from the Laggan Estuary in Donegal and Tyrone.
5. Indentured labour for this group is conjectural.
6. Amount of information on ships’ manifests was erratic.
7. Transcription errors were the norm.
8. Clustering of passengers on ships provide hints to kinship and place of origin.
9. Weavers may have been snapped up by DuPont.
10. Ancestry searches should concentrate on PA, OH and DE.
11. Philly Street Directory gave few results, suggesting waxwings did not linger.
12. Earlier lists of Wilmington-bound emigrants suggest chain migration.
13. Eileen’s family tree entries could bear fruit.
14. Irish landlords were very random in their rental charges.
15. Those listed as weavers were mostly not weavers.
16. Likewise, those listed as farmers were not farmers.
17. Names on Duffy’s Cut memorial are wrong.
18. An unspecified number of the waxwings could have ended up in Canada.
With that alone there is enough to fill a book but I would dearly love it to also include a genealogical guide to the pitfalls and blind alleys awaiting novice family researchers, notably users of Ancestry.com which I still think is a rip-off.
Waxwing
June 26, 2013 at 7:47 pm
Perhaps if you let me have what you have done on the chapter I could finish it off? With ‘The Sea is Wide’ I had to do some serious editing on a number of the chapters to whip them into shape. The final say would of course remain yours.
maccarleo
June 26, 2013 at 9:10 pm
Many of the items you have listed, I am trying to incorporate into the chapter, but I feel as though I am giving them short shrift. So I am not sure whether to simply mention them in passing or to spend more time with them.
My instinct is to make the chapter about Duffy’s Cut, with the rest brought up as counterpoint, but to be dealt with more completely and succinctly in the book. When I do this, it feels incomplete when I read it.
I will sort it out and try to get a more manageable piece sent out to you. Hopefully, I can have it ready in a week. Luckily, you and Eileen both know where the chapter needs to go. That does take some of the pressure off.
Eileen Breen
June 14, 2013 at 10:08 pm
The James Snodgrass military record shows he was a carpenter. Our James Snodgrass was a farmer. There is a widowed, Presbyterian farmer named James Snodgrass in New Brunswick, Canada. Although this seems far away from Philadelphia. The other Snodgrass choices are born in US.
Waxwing
June 14, 2013 at 8:13 pm
Snodgrass
Perhaps not the same James Snodgrass as two years younger (?) but almost certainly related as there were only twenty Snodgrass households in Ireland and they were all in North-West Ulster.
James Snodgrass Civil War Record
Waxwing
May 12, 2013 at 8:35 am
Fritz Springmeier
This man (from Oregon) heavily researched the links between the DuPonts, Jefferson, Franklin and the Freemasons/Illuminati
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bloodlines/dupont.htm
He seems to have overstepped the mark however and he did eight years in a federal penitentiary for armed robbery. Since his release in 2011 he seems to have gone very quiet!
Eileen Breen
May 3, 2013 at 1:19 pm
The Peggy McKendrick letter to duPont was in November of 1832
Eileen Breen
April 14, 2013 at 8:00 pm
If our story came before the Catholic Emancipation why would the RCs trust the Protestants? If the church idea is correct then maybe the men were more Protestant than Catholic? Unless the landlords/employers were Protestant/H.I.S. and they proposed the idea of emigration. It seems like the recruiters had the major townlands covered. An article Don put up also said there were four shipbrokers but it didn’t say who they were. It would be interesting to see how many ship builders also had a Philadelphia connection. So far Moleson, Corscaden and duPont and Cunard did and all were Masons.
The Masons were established in Philadelphia before the American Revolution. I was also thinking, with the waves of emigration to Philadelphia when the Scotch-Irish came first, perhaps many of them were Masons. The film on the Masons showed two lodges that were very early in Philadelphia prior to the one built in 1880s. One of the Masonic lodges was in Independence Hall. One Mason lodge was burned by anti-Mason’s in the 1860s. The two earliest lodges still exist. I think there is a link between the Londonderry, Canadian and Philadelphia ship builders and the Masons.
Eileen Breen
April 14, 2013 at 9:24 pm
From LPHC History Of Derry Port:
In the 17th-18th century, in a city dominated by merchants, shopkeepers and craftsman, only Freemen (Masons) of the city were entitled to conduct business, own property, and receive protection within the walled city. Freemen consisted of two classes – the first were entitled by birth, apprenticeship, marriage or purchase. The second were those granted it by favor. The minute books record frequent complaints of freemen about ‘strangers and foreigners exercising their trade’ in Derry’. In the minutes the freeman levied a tax on all foreigners’ goods or imports in or out of the city of Derry.
In 1767, sixty seven ships were owned by the merchants of Derry. In 1838, Derry was linked to sixteen ports in Ireland and fifty three ports in England. From 1834-1850, fifty four ships were bought by Derry merchants, twenty eight of these were bought in Canada. In 1833, there were forty one sailing ships owned by Derry merchants, fifteen were involved in the North America emigrant trade, three were steamships. Canada was an economic necessity for Londonderry in order to keep the supply of timber for their ship building business.
Eileen Breen
April 14, 2013 at 9:31 pm
The Alexanders (S. and J.) were Derry shipbuilders. I only saw this name from the article Don put up. Still need to confirm they are the ship builder Alexanders. The family tree for Youngs of Culdaff and Inishowen shows Youngs and Alexanders. Master John Young of the John Stamp and Corscaden may be related to the Alexanders. I had asked this person who owns the tree if he knew about the connection but he didn’t have any information. The history of the Alexanders shows them in Donegal in Inishowen near Patrick. The history shows that in the 1700s at the time of the Plantation. We need more information to confirm their story. They also have a Philadelphia connection. I sent everyone their story and it’s on the ship builders’ tree.
Patrick
April 14, 2013 at 7:46 pm
This is on Lindel Buckley’s great web site
It seems that the lands originally were bequeathed to Tristram Cary, son of Edward Cary of Dungiven, and Sarah Brazier, widow of Paul Brazier, daughter of Sir Tristram Beresford.
“To my 3rd son Tristram Cary the two towns which I have in the Parish of Bovevy being parte of the lands which I hould from the Bishop of Derry and also the three quaterlands of Doneugh lying in the Barony of Enighowen”
George Cary was Tristram Cary’s son by ? and he probably inherited these three quarterlands of Donagh and established the branch of the Cary family, based at Tiernaleague. One of his sons was Micah Cary who married Mary Anne Hamilton, widow of Tristram Cary (possibly a second cousin) and died in 1789. He died intestate and so the lands held by lease under the Bishop of Derry were divided – 1/3 to the widow and 2/3 equally to the 8 children, 4 boys & 4 girls. Each child therefore received a 1/12. The eldest daughter, Mary Anne Cary, married Charles Hamilton; Martha Cary married William Rankin, Frances Cary married Samuel Rankin (not a brother but almost certainly a cousin of some kind to William) and Jane Hamilton Cary married Thomas Levet Metcalfe. The eldest son was George Cary who left, probably having reached a settlement with his youngest brother Robert of an annuity in exchange for his 1/12 share – this is mentioned in Robert Cary’s will. William Cary died prior to 1813. Tristram Cary married but little is known about him, although various family letters refer to him. Robert Cary the youngest did not marry, but did have an illegitimate son, Matthew Cary, to whom he left property in his will and who is also referred to in some of the family letters as having gone to sea. When Mary Anne Cary (mother) died abt 1813 she left her 1/3 share to Robert Cary, this must have caused a certain amount of family friction because advice was sought from Counsel as to whether she had the right to will her one-third share in this way.
Robert Cary took over the management of the estate for the rest of the family but clearly from the letters, this caused yet more aggravation and by 1820s he was getting thoroughly fed up. There appears to have been some division of the holding within the family, such that some of them were collecting rents etc on their own behalf. The initial agent, as far as Martha Rankin nee Cary and her son Samuel Rankin were concerned, was Robert Moore, however he clearly had a falling out with Robert Cary and is dismissed as agent. Robert Cary then appointed Dan Doherty as agent, possibly for the whole estate but certainly for himself and his sister. Dan Doherty seems from the letters to be a less educated man than Robert Moore.
Eileen Breen
April 12, 2013 at 1:43 pm
Mary found a John Munn, mayor of Londonderry in 1829. There are two Munns listed a John Munn esq., MD and a John Munn Jr., both lessors. Mary also found a John Munn in Canada (Jennie Johnson article) and the date is later than the first John Munn so it may be his son.
Eileen Breen
April 13, 2013 at 12:10 pm
The Alexander Munn article from Mary has interesting points: Alexander may be the son of John Munn Esq., MD and brother to John Munn Jr. Alexander had a son John. They had a connection to Molson Brewing Company in Quebec where John Jr was Mayor. I think this company is on the St Lawrence River. I remember seeing it when I went to Quebec. The article also said that for the St Johns New Brunswick colony you needed a political connection to belong. Perhaps in Derry you needed to be political as well. The article also referred to “freedom of the city” which is also mentioned in the Mason’s philosophy.
Waxwing
April 9, 2013 at 5:28 pm
A Query I sent off to Prof Dolores O’Reilly (author of ‘Atlantic Gateway’).
‘Some quick queries please, as you are one of the authorities on Derry as an early emigration port.
Did the duPonts have any hands-on dealings with Derry shipping agents or were they just one of the regular users of the facility?
Were the Derry emigration agents, such as Daniel Baird, Cary McClelland and others, complicit in securing young fit males from the Derry hinterland to build the Pennsylvania railway?
Did the HIS (Honourable Irish Society) or Freemasonry have any vested interests in the emigration trade in Derry’?
Not holding my breath for a reply!
Simon Elliott
December 28, 2013 at 5:40 pm
My ancestor, Robert Taylor of Philadelphia, acted as agent for his relation, James Corscaden, ship owner of Derry. Robert engaged the passages of Irish emigrants over a long period on behalf of Messrs E I du Pont & Co. There is a run of his letters at the Hagley Museum and Library of which I could give you the reference in case you are unaware of the archive.
It is evident that by no means all the emigrants were intending to work for du Pont and I would be grateful to hear your thoughts on what the du Pont Company’s object might have been in facilitating immigration on this scale.
du Pont did not apparently deal direct with Derry but rather through Taylor.
Hoping to hear from you
Simon Elliott in the north of England
Don MacFarlane
December 30, 2013 at 8:22 pm
We (myself, Mary Cornell and Eileen Breen) have been researching the 52 young male passengers of the John Stamp who sailed from Derry possibly to their deaths within six weeks at Duffy’s Cut in Malvern County PA in 1832. We would be keenly interested to find out any information you may have on Robert Taylor (agent) and James Corscaden who owned the John Stamp.
maccarleo
December 31, 2013 at 2:39 am
That is the same question we have asked ourselves and have been attempting to find out. The small percentage that ended up working in the duPont factories do not seem to have been a very profitable undertaking considering the number of immigrants who were financed by duPont. Just how did duPont profit from his ‘philanthropy’?
Don MacFarlane
December 31, 2013 at 7:24 am
The book ‘Black Powder, White Lace’ by Prof Margaret Mulrooney on the ‘Du Pont Irish’ makes no mention of Derry or the emigration scheme, underwritten by Du Pont or his agent(s), that was obviously in place. As Mary would say, “hmmm….”
maccarleo
December 31, 2013 at 11:26 am
An item on the Hagley Site states that Robert Taylor continued to use Londonderry port even after everyone else began using Liverpool exclusively. Playing Devil’s Advocate, Taylor could possibly have profited financially through kickbacks from Corscaden by solely using Corscaden’s ships, keeping it all in the family. This still does not explain the DuPont puzzle. They did not profit in any visible way from their ‘generosity’. Loyalty from one worker would not seem to balance the scales when the passages of entire families were paid.
Eileen Breen
January 9, 2014 at 7:06 am
Just a thought on Simon’s letter:
duPont not only had shipping interests in Derry be also had ships on the waterways in Philadelphia on the Delaware River, prior to and after the trains were established in the Philadelphia and Delaware areas and also in S. America. Mary found that Robert Taylor was also an agent for McCorkle lines. They did the cross-channel traffic and some trans-Atlantic transportation.
Simon: What is your connection to Corscaden and R. Taylor? Do you have a family tree on1line?
I think the emigrant travel was a way to fill the ships and to keep his businesses with cheap able-bodied workers and the work was dangerous. The emigrants seemed to travel to Delaware willingly and there was no evidence of evictions from the Beresford or other estates. The Beresford landlords also treated their tenants fairly. From all accounts I read, duPont treated his workers fairly but at the same time he knew how to keep his businesses in the black.
Eileen Breen
January 25, 2014 at 5:57 am
Hi Simon
Earliest travel across the Atlantic involved emigrants finding their own passage on a ship crossing. Emigrants in the 1830s and after this found it easier to hire an agent to arrange the passage. Agents made a commission on each passage sold. Sometimes an agent would purchase all the tickets for a particular passage then resell the tickets making a profit. There is a letter in the archive that shows the profit they made. I think it was about $1300 for one ship.
In a few of the letters, duPont and Taylor talk about the laws for emigrant tax and the rules they had to follow. Early on, the rule was two passengers per five tons that the ship weighed. Later on it was one passenger per five tons which cut their profit margin drastically. Robert Taylor wrote to someone in Derry and asked them to explain to the passengers that it didn’t matter if the person was two days old or 99 years they had to purchase a ticket, due to the passenger-five ton rule, although there were discounted rates for those under 12 years. He also showed frustration with this rule as people tried to pass off children as younger than they were for the discounted rate.
From the Hagley Archives, Robert Taylor was the first agent to work with the emigrants full time during the 1830s – 50’s except for 1837 when another agent was hired at a cheaper rate than R. Taylor. Robert was then rehired. Robert worked out of the Port of Baltimore MD and the Philadelphia Port. (Robert A. Taylor and Co, Market St, Philadelphia PA and Eutaw and Lombard St, Baltimore MD).
I found a document stating the property there belonged to his company. His father, William H. Taylor (William H. Taylor and Co, Market St, Philadelphia), was also the principal in the company. Robert was recommended for the agent position in 1819 by Lammott duPont. Robert was successful on his own and had earned $200-300,000 by 1819 when the letter was written. In 1847 Robert Taylor’s office was listed at 32 Walnut St, Philadelphia PA.
From the Hegley archive someone did a summary of Robert A. Taylor’s history with E.I. duPont. Robert always signed his letters to duPont by saying ‘Your Humbled Servant’. In the summary it stated he was of Irish descent. On Ancestry, I connected to a family tree that contained Corscaden, Wolfe, Blood, Findlater and Taylor. She had three Robert Taylors listed but I don’t have the exact ‘Robert Taylor’ from that tree, her dates are a little later, but I do think I have the right tree. She was not aware that there were Taylors in Baltimore. I did pass the information to her and she was kind to give me access to the tree.
So, iff Simon needs to make a connection I can pass your information privately or you can go on Ancestry and you can contact her. There are also several people researching this tree online. Our Robert was born in 1787 in Baltimore MD. The owner of the tree stated that in her family she didn’t have any Irish Taylors. I think the family was from Scotland. Taylor was involved in The Friendly Sons Of St Patrick and held several offices in the social group including President, VP and Treasurer. Robert also worked for James Corscaden out of Londonderry and William McCorkle.
Eileen Breen
January 25, 2014 at 6:51 am
It is possible that James Corscaden perhaps bought all the tickets for a particular ship and dealt with the passengers in Derry at his office on Shipquay St. He made a commission on each passage, Corscaden then sent the information and money to Robert Taylor who would act as a go-between and write to duPont to tell him at what price a ticket was sold for, how many tickets were sold, any emigrant laws they needed to be aware of as related to costs and received the money for the passages from Corscaden. It was known that E.I.duPont paid Taylor a cash rate although he didn’t pay E.I. duPont cash. E.I. dupont sent payment (commission) to Taylor at regular intervals. E.I.duPont also operated like a bank.
As the emigration from the North of Ireland to the Philadelphia Port picked up momentum, some sixty thousand people left the Derry Port during Taylor’s twenty-year history with the duPont company (1830-50). More people needed the passages to be assisted so Corscaden notified Taylor and Taylor who needed assistance and how much was needed. E.I. duPont would then front the money for the trip which the emigrant needed to pay back. I think this is where duPont made some money. Instead of charging interest for the loan he offered to house them and offered the emigrant a job to work in his munitions factories which was a dangerous job. He also realized he needed loyal employees so he also assisted whole families to come. This probably kept his workers happy. The employees then paid E.I. duPont back at regular intervals.
Maybe duPont charged a little interest on the money that was loaned and may also have charged for food, clothing and rent. I think E.I. duPont was a visionary in this. He knew how the make maximum profits. The employees seemed to be happier in US where they were living in better conditions, had a better diet and had their families with them.
In an article I read about emigration to Canada from Ireland, it stated that the Masons who assisted with helping to rid Ireland of the ‘unwanted’ due to overcrowding, famine, poor crops in some years and high unemployment rate knew they could not just dump them in ‘the Dominions’. They had to make them worthy by giving them jobs, clothing, food and housing. The Masons were all about making ‘friends’ with those who were equal to themselves. You could become a Mason through a recommendation, hard work and working your way up the ladder. It seemed like a win-win situation for the emigrant and Shipping agent alike.
The Irish were living in improved conditions and were happy to have their families with them. They had a job and they could support their families. Although emigration at first may have seemed like a death sentence by leaving some loved ones at home, duPont made this a better situation by keeping their families together. It also meant they didn’t have to face the harsh realities of being indentured servant. They were paid regulary, fed, had htheir families housed and could repay duPont at a regular rate.
Don MacFarlane
April 8, 2013 at 7:16 am
Free Agents
This from the Strabane Morning Post illustrates that folks were able to make their own way to PA unencumbered by any obligations to DuPont or their likes, as long as they had the means.
http://ied.dippam.ac.uk/records/53196
‘NOW IN PORT FOR PHILADELPHIA, The Beautiful, First-class, ONTARIO.
Burthen 700 tons: JOHN CONNELL, Master. To Sail positively the 21st March next.
The ONTARIO is a superior fast-sailing vessel, fitted up in a most comfortable manner for Passengers, and will be despatched at the above date, or, if the wind be unfavourable, she will be towed down by a steamer.
Captain Connell’s kindness to passengers is so well known as to require no comment. Persons intending to emigrate this season should immediately secure berths in this superior conveyance, as her complement will also be engaged.
For passage please apply to Mr. Samuel Morton, Mr. Leslie Sault, or Mr. Thomas Hamilton, Strabane; Mr. Lavens Mathewson, Mr. Stewart, Mr. William McCreery, Omagh; Mr. James Doughorty, Limavady; Mr. Robert Clegg, Enniskillen; Mr. Robert Laird or Mr. John Toner, Ballbofey; Mr. John Green, Ballyshannon; Mr. Gallagher, Letterkenny; Mr. William Henderson, Castlederg; Mr. James Sherrard, Fintona; Mr. John Sweeney, Filleton; as the Sub. souber, who will put on board an abundance of Fuel and Waters for the voyage.
DANIEL BAIRD
FOYLE STREET, DERRY Feb. 18,1832
Elegant accommodation for Cabin Passengers.’
Comment:
Clearly there was no shortage of emigration agents. Also, notwithstanding the Ontario being such a ‘fine ship’, it is even so very likely that it would make itself available to ragamuffin passengers of the labouring variety. There would have been less salubrious compartments in the hold which would be jam-packed with the lower-class who became a human ballast. The above advertisement is clearly for cabin passengers only.
It is also noteworthy that the ship was berthed for a full month before sailing, so it wold have been common knowledge that there was an emigration ship in port. No need then for more sinister press-ganging arrangements to solicit passengers for the US.
Waxwing
April 8, 2013 at 7:50 am
Other Emigration Agents
Click to access Derry%20emigration%20overview.pdf
http://www.bogstown.com/2010/09/04/1830s-life-in-londonderry/
‘By 1833 seven merchants in the city – Daniel Baird, James Corscaden, John Kelso, William McCorkell, James McCrea, John Munn and Joseph Young – owned fifteen vessels, all engaged in the North American emigrant trade’.
From Four Courts Press comes
Atlantic Gateway: The port and city of Londonderry since 1700
Robert Gavin, William P Kelly and Dolores O‟Reilly (Four Courts Press, Dublin, 2009).
This is the reference work for the academic or serious general reader who wishes to research the history of Derry port and its relationship with its hinterland.
Waxwing
April 10, 2013 at 7:33 pm
So I guess some queries with the network of emigration agents being so well-established are:
Did any of these agents handle the waxwings’ emigrations?
Did the railroad or Duffy, much as DuPont did, make contact with any of these agents to recruit for them?
Did the waxwings just apply for places on ships as ordinary-paying passengers?
Did they just take pot-luck and arrive jobless and/or were they pressganged by Duffy on the quayside?
Eileen Breen
April 8, 2013 at 12:22 am
Thanks, Mary, for all the Beresford family peerage information and the 1812 article. It’s interesting that Captain John Beresford was sent by the British to fight in Delaware in the War of 1812. E.I. duPont and his brother Victor were very industrious and profitable selling gunpowder and uniforms for the War. It’s interesting that duPont and Beresford were Masons and that their goal was imperialism, promoting the Masons and the Crown. Also, did duPont chose to side with the US did he just make a profit?
Waxwing
April 2, 2013 at 8:37 am
Quotes from a Favourite Philosopher (Voltaire)
‘I never made but one prayer – “Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous” – and He granted it!’
On his deathbed and on being asked by a priest to renounce Satan and all his works – “Now is not the time to be making new enemies!”
‘Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers’.
‘I do not agree with much of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’.
Eileen Breen
April 2, 2013 at 12:55 am
The name Tristram has appeared several times in the Beresford tree. Tristram Cary, born in 1646 in Inishowen, was Lieutenant of Coleraine and he died 1726. His father was George Cary of Redcastle and his mother was Jane Beresford. His spouse was Eliza Mokton b.1650 and his siblings were Frances, George, Elizabeth, Lettice, Capt Edward Cary, Henry, Ann, Mary and Edward. There was a reference to a will in Dublin but I could only see the reference number and no details for Tristram and a few others in the family.
On Ancestry on the UK site there was someone researching Youngs of Culdaff and Inishowen. They had in their tree, Young, Watt, Beresford and Cary. MacClelland and Corscaden were not in this tree. They had several John Youngs but one was born in 1761 in Liberia and died in 1834 in Bath, Somerset, England. We found the John Stamp with a John Young, Master and Cosignatory with R. McClelland in 1835.
So this is probably not him but maybe one of the other John Youngs in the family might be ours. I wrote to see if he knows anything. I saw a Watt family researching the Beresford tree. I found the Tithe Applotment that Patrick said for 1828 for Donagh, Donegal.
Still trying to find church records for Tristram Cary as Carey may be related to MacClelland. I noticed one of the main faiths was Methodist and one of the societies the duPonts belonged to was a Methodist society: The Holy Brotherhood.
Eileen Breen
April 1, 2013 at 11:24 pm
I think the Illinois duPont’s and the Delaware ones are the same. I saw in the duPont’s tree they had the name Cornelius duPont. The name of the town in Illinois was duPont. Perhaps the Delaware group did the sail-ships (cargo and passenger) that did the trans-Atlantic crossing and the Pennsylvania canal ships (Christiana and E.I. duPont).
The town the duPont’s lived in was Christiana. Also I saw an ad for a new ship that was launched for the canal system in 1831 called the E.I. duPont. The Indiana group must have been into using trains for transporting cargo in 1850s. They were also slave owners in Indiana and I also saw slave plantation records in Caribbean. I have to go back and look at it again but the owner was a duPont.
Patrick
April 1, 2013 at 4:23 pm
Going through the Tithe Applotment for the parish of Donagh there is a Tristram Cary, a John Young and a H(?) McCorriston, who have small pockets of land about 1.5 acres in size. If these are the same men who seem to be a wealthy lot why these small pockets of land, a holiday home of some sorts perhaps. It’s also worth noting the names of their neighbours and while it may be a wrong suggestion perhaps the recruiting for the John Stamp was done from here. I also wonder if the other ships’ passengers were recruited from other parishes in a similar way in some sort of orderly fashion i.e. one ship filled with folk from one parish then the next ship from another.
Eileen Breen
March 30, 2013 at 1:21 pm
I tried to find out if duPont owned a railroad. The only thing that came up was his shipping business , a ship he launched in 1831 called the E.I. duPont that used the waterway canal system and about the waterway system. It may have been how the P&C RR received it’s goods at Duffy’s Cut.
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 3:55 pm
DuPont Expendables
‘Black powder, as gunpowder was called then, was used for much more than just hunting. Mining and railroad companies used it for blasting away rock, and farmers used it to clear land. Making gunpowder was a very dangerous business. There were 288 explosions at the DuPont mills resulting in 228 deaths. Often, local people were afraid to work in the mills, so the company brought many workers from Ireland and Italy’.
from http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/hagley-a-place-in-time.pdf and
http://www2.dupont.com/Phoenix_Heritage/en_US/1804_a_detail.html
Eileen Breen
March 31, 2013 at 12:28 am
DuPont Letters
Alfred duPont in 1848 in his accounts purchased beer for the powdermen and coffins. Prior to this entry there were lettere relating to several explosions settling estates of two people. In April1847, there was an explosion where eighteen men died. In Alfred’s later records they referred to business with the BrandywineRR and a few others. I didn’t see the P&C. I think the Philadelphia RRs were first followed by the P&C. I did see another article that suggested the duPonts sold munitions to railroad entrepreneurs.
E.I. duPont and his father fought in the French Revolution and his father was raised to the level of nobility. After the revolution nobility were seen as people who could restart a revolution so they were politically exiled. Perhaps that’s why they chose Ireland first to emigrate to because it was close to home. They later emigrated to Rhode Island in 1800, NY and Wilmington, DE. I just read he helped negotiate for land in West Florida. The Beresfords had a large estate in Florida on the St John’s River. I also read E.I’s father was a Mason.
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 9:36 am
The affinity of duPont for all things Derry continues to this day and it was the largest single employer in Derry throughout the Troubles
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/dupont-factory-50-years-in-the-making-28576316.html
The bond between Derry folk and duPont remains very strong. I remember once trying to educate my six year old nephew into how rubber was made and I said “Did you know that rubber comes from trees?” His Dad worked in duPonts and he looked at me as if I had two heads before quickly retorting “Not round here it doesn’t. It comes from duPonts!”
BTW The duPonts were Protestant (French Huguenots) so the connection may have had something to do with that. Ireland had been a place of sanctuary for exiled Huguenots for centuries following the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre – the Patchills being a case in point – and the duPonts likely knew that.
From a more hard-nosed point of view, it may not have mattered much to duPont whether Irishmen or Chinamen built the PPR railroad – it was mainly Irish who built the bit that started at the east, the Chinese built the bit that started at the west. Be that as it may, there seems to have been a patchwork of motivations at play here?
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r009.html
The book by Margaret Mulrooney, ‘Black Powder and White Soul’, may shed more light on it but one possible angle might be:
The Duffy’s Cut episode had nothing to do with Famine or forced eviction in Ireland (the pattern of emigration was too patchy)?
It may have had little to do with Orangeism or Freemasonry (why select your own kith and kin to put them in harm’s way)? Although Huguenots were big into Freemasonry.
http://tamrin.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=religions&action=print&thread=1336
The Watsons were right about the John Stamp (the mix of passengers on that ship was too slanted towards young fit men and not towards family units)? The other ships that Summer were just ordinary emigration ships.
Duffy and duPont were co-dependent. There was big money to be made, more so by duPont than by Duffy for whom it was a one-off project (duPont’s explosives were no use in clearing land unless the rubble was cleared by the rabble)?
It was dangerous work and in difficult terrain for inexperienced young men totally unused to explosives. This was no mass murder but a tragic and avoidable accident?
The disaster would have meant ruin for duPont and he was the villain of the piece and architect of the cover-up as muh as Duffy?
Any cholera victims would have been no more than the customary 15%, probably less as they had a source of clean running water in the stream?
Deaths by a blast that went wrong would have been easily covered up and caused no remark amongst survivors?
There are not fifty bodies under railway sleepers still to be dug up as the remainder of the work crew went home to Ireland as they had had enough?
The weavers on the John Stamp went to the duPont linen mills in PA?
DuPont and his descendants knew the true story and felt a burden of guilt over the whole tragic affair but could not be touched?
It is easier to blame mysterious vanishing horsemen than Big Business and pillars of society?
How’s that for a conspiracy theory? It might be at least as credible as Hibernophobic native Americans and mysterious vigilante horsemen?
Mary Cornell
March 30, 2013 at 3:36 pm
Your theory works as well as any others, in fact better than some. It hinges on one assumption being true and that is that these accidental deaths would have been the ruin of duPont. I don’t think so. These were harsh times with ruthless men at the helm. What’s a few deaths along the way? I doubt duPont or Duffy gave it a second thought. Bury the men and get on with it.
This does beg the question. How were these men replaced? Was another ship in the harbor two months later with fresh young faces? The cut was finished on schedule or close to it. The time lost during this summer seems to be insignificant.
Why weren’t there more Huguenots in the mix?
Why were all of the men Catholic per the Watson’s assumption? More expendable in everyone’s mind?
Were the wealthy elite ‘cleaning house’ in the north?
Vigilante horsemen brings to mind the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 4:18 pm
Half the crew were Protestant by my reckoning so religion wasn’t a factor.
Other Trivia (recapping Eileen’s earlier post)
The DuPonts were big buddies of President Jefferson.
The DuPonts helped to secure the Louisiana Purchase.
Native Americans were shy of being slaughtered in their hundreds, on railroads and in mills, by DuPont and his black powder.
DuPont on more than one occasion sent to Ireland for more cannon fodder to replace his slaughtered workers.
He always played his card right. Not a bit squeamish about his workers being killed by his powder, he refused to sell it to Confederates, posing all the while as an arch-patriot.
He was the main supplier of gunpowder to the American government.
Puzzle
Not at all clear if DuPont had any direct association with Derry or was his name just on a billhead.
Mary Cornell
March 30, 2013 at 4:40 pm
Clarification. The men who died at Duffys Cut were said to be all Catholic by the Watsons. The ship did carry equal numbers of Protestant and Catholic. So why only Catholic to the cut? Is the Watsons contention of Catholic-only wrong?
Waxwing
March 30, 2013 at 5:23 pm
I asked Bill Watson that question and his feeble reply was that he had friends and colleagues with Protestant-sounding names who were Catholic, and he named two for good measure! I guess he did his usual and made two and two into five just because those emigrants were mostly from Donegal – what would you do with him!?
Waxwing
March 29, 2013 at 8:48 pm
Beresford Lineage (Burke’s Peerage)
John Bereford d.1475 m.Elizabeth Basset, Staffordshire, England.
Thomas Beresford d. 1473
Humphrey Beresford m. Margery Bardesley
George Beresford m. Eleanor Greene. he was Steward of Nottingham, England.
Michael Beresford d.1574 m. Rose Knevitt
Tristram Beresford b. 1574. Manager for Corporation of London. Lived in Coleraine.
Sir Tristram Beresford d.1673. Member of Parliament for Londonderry, Donegal and Tyrone 1656-66.
Sir Randal Beresford MP for Coleraine d.1681 m. Catherine Annesley
Sir Tristram Beresford MP for Londonderry, attainted by King James II (for being Protestant), m. Nicola Hamilton, d. 1701
Marcus Beresford, 1st Earl of Tyrone, MP for Londonderry, b. 1694 d.1763 m. Catherine Power (Baroness de Paor).
Rt Hon John dePaor Beresford, b.1737, m. Barbara Montgomery
Henry Barre Beresford, b.1784 m. Elizabeth Baily, d. 1837
John Barre Beresford,
George Beresford, b. 1826 m. Anne Conyers
Tristram Beresford b. 1851.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p2684.htm#i26833
http://www.parkvillage.co/index.php/learmount/learmount-castle/
The general impression of the Beresfords is of a family that has been in decline for the past two hundred years.
Eileen Breen
March 29, 2013 at 7:54 pm
We need to come at this from several sources.
I couldn’t find just one source of who owned the land. I disagree with you that McAfee’s site is not useful. It’s just one small part of the puzzle. Bill McAfee’s maps showed where all the clans were on native land, on church lands and on Crown land prior to the Plantation.
He also lists the lands where H.I.S. estates are in County Derry listed by their individual livery companies. You also have to look at how the land was divided during the Plantation and what their requirements were: English vs. Scottish; Principal Land Owners (called Undertakers).
Private investors were the Scottish Undertakers and businessmen who invested in the Plantation and who were English. The Scottish land owners had under three thousand acres and the English had four thousand acres. Other interest groups, Scottish and English, were Servitors, Livery Companies and the Church Of Ireland. The map of the Scottish Planters and Servitors also showed who had large estates of two thousand acres, 1500 acres and one thousand acres or less.
That’s why I started the Beresfords tree because we also need to see where the Crown lands were. The McAfree map also shows some of the Crown lands. Tithe books would probably assist in finding native land owners who were given land if they pledged their loyalty to the Crown. Those that didn’t may have rented and I’m not sure of that source.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 11:28 pm
I started a Beresford tree on Ancestry as there are a lot of people researching them.
1861-2 Griffith’s Valuation: William Beresford, Dongore, Antrim; James Beresford, Rathbeg, Dongore, Antrim; Isabella Beresford, Tobergill, Dongore, Antrim.
PRONI 10/3/1898 : James Beresford, aged 60, widow, Dongore. A Tombstone of 1810 listed a John Beresford and brother, Andrew, at St. John’s Church, Dongore, Antrim. Some of our names could be from here.
Of the other ships we are looking at, one I think had place names. I remember Limavady, New Buildings and townlands around there. These are H.I.S. lands. How did the Crown get freeholds? I understand Native freeholds were there before the Plantation but the Crown was there after it?
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 5:03 pm
I found some Seamen’s Certificates for a John Beresford Young, Master of the John Stamp and related to Corscaden. Corscadens and Beresfords were also related by marriage so Young must also have been related to the Beresfords. John Watt, Master of the Creole, may also been related to Corscaden. The Watts were grocers, wine merchants and distillers in the 1829 directory.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 5:28 pm
The Beresfords and Hamiltons managed the Fishmongers’ Estate in the Manor Of Walworth. Barre Beresford made improvements and the land was taken back by the Fishmongers Company in 1820.
Tristim Beresford was Agent for the Harberdashers’ Estate in the Manor Of Freemore and Randell Beresford controlled it. R. McClelland brought people from Scotland to settle this estate. The Merchant Tailors owned the Manor Of St John The Baptist and the Agent was Michael Beresford.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 6:32 pm
I think the estates we need to look at are those managed by the Beresford Family. James Corscaden is related by marriage and the name Canning is from 1614 on the Ironmongers’ estate. Canning and Corscaden are related by marriage. The H.I.S. intermarried to keep everything in the family, from Ship masters to connections in business. The estates are the Marquis of Waterford’s Estate, the Ironmonger’s Estate in Castleagivey, the Merchant Taylor’s Estate, the Manor of St John the Baptist. R.McClelland leased lands on the Clothworkers’ estate in Articlave and the Haberdashers’ Estate in Ballykelly. I put up the map from Bill’s site on James Corscaden’s profile on Ancestry.
Eileen Breen
March 27, 2013 at 4:16 pm
In the 1600s county lands in Derry, allocated to the Church and some native families, were called Native Freeholds. Four that are listed were O’Cahan’s, in Tirkeeran, Keenaught, Coleraine; O’Mullan’s, in Tirkeeran and Keenaught;McGilligan’s, in Ballycarton in Magilligan and Boveedy near Kilrea; and McCowell’s in Boveedy. There were no Native Freeholds in Loughinsholin belonging to the O’Neills. All these properties were in the old county of Coleraine.
In the 1654 Civil Survey only a few of these Native Freeholders remained and the land was sold to spectators. One of these was Beresford who was connected to James Corscaden by marriage. He was one of the most successful managers of several properties and he is mentioned in H.I.S. minute meetings in 1829-32.
Two private estates were owned by Sir Thomas Phillips, a servitor in Limavady and Mayola. Later this land was bought by the Connollys. The Connollys also purchased a Vintner estate in Bellaghy and Mayola. This property was later owned by Dawsons who named the area Castledawson.
I was thinking we could use this map and information from the Bill McAfee Treasury site and put in the names from the ships according to these lands owned by H.I.S. Companies.
On another subject, H.I.S. Corporation Minute books from 1829-32 refer to Stamp Fees. Freemasons were named in the minutes and they were required to pay a Stamp Fee to make it legal and to enter themselves as members of the Freemason Lodge. The minutes also invited Beresford to participate in the meeting. John Mitchell McClelland, son of Carey McClelland, was recommended for membership as a Freemason. Also mentioned is someone completing their term as an apprentice and recommending him to be a freemason. A McCorkell was also mentioned in the minutes. A note on the bottom of the page speaks about ‘Those admitted as Freemen of the city’.
The committee asked for the names to be entered in order of those who received The Freedom. They were to be admitted in order, admitted by birth, service, marriage or ‘established by Grace’. In order to enter as a Freemason, you could inherit it, be given an honorary membership like Winston Churchill or if you were an Apprentice to the H.I.S. you could work to earn the membership.
Mary Cornell
March 25, 2013 at 4:37 pm
Not to take away from the mastery of the flute playing, the song sounds much better on the fiddle. The nuances are more apparent.
A few years ago, I saw an interview that James Galway gave in which he said that even though he grew up in Belfast, the strife between the Protestants and Catholics was not really a part of his life. If he was a member of an Orange band, there were some leanings present in his life.
Eileen Breen
March 25, 2013 at 1:42 pm
I think we need to look at H.I.S. lands and who the leasers were, then see if they appeared on any ship manifests as cosignitories, like R. McClelland. There may be connections from Sir Robert McClelland to C.I. duPont in Willmington, DE.
Eileen Breen
March 25, 2013 at 1:11 pm
Mary, the two articles were great. It would be interesting to understand under what conditions the Masons acquired their land.
I heard of the tune the Mason’s Apron but I never knew the history. I’ll have to listen to both versions.
Eileen Breen
March 25, 2013 at 1:37 am
Victor duPont had a long history of encouraging emigration to Wilmington, Delaware. He gave money to families to bring everyone over, offering free housing and gardens so they would owe their loyalty to him and his munitions and chemicals factories. duPont was Protestant. He built a children’s hospital and he supported St. John the Baptist church, both are signs he may have been a Mason.
Masons supported children’s charities and their patron saint was St. John the Baptist. The Masons’ or H.I.S. lands, the manor of St John’s, were above the Grocers’ lands on the east coast of Inishowen. The name Worshipful seen on Tithe Applottment Books meant honorable for H.I.S.
I think we need to look at Wilmington, Delaware for our John Stamp folks. FFT: If Peggy McKendrick paid for Samuel Doherty, how come they didn’t go back to Victor or Charles I. duPont when George Doherty from Donegal went missing?
Mary Cornell
March 26, 2013 at 4:16 pm
I noticed that most of the correspondence between Taylor and duPont that included James Corscaden were in 1832. Corscaden possibly the recruiter for duPont in 1832?
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 4:04 pm
Agents:
Tristam, Thomas and Michael Beresford, Nicholas Elcock, Paul and George Canning, David Babington.
Some very prominent people leased this land and the small farmers were also part of these estates. McCorkell had the cross channel trade with his seven ships from Derry to England. Maybe the small farmers from his estates went to England to pick the harvest every year for seasonal work. Like migrant farmers they would follow the harvest and in the winter returned home. In 1832 there was a famine so maybe there was nothing to pick that year so they decided to go on the ships owned by H.I.S. and their landlords.
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 4:40 pm
The migrant workers could have been hired by H.I.S. to work their estates in and around Londonderry. A few of these estates were near each other outside Limavady and in Muff. When my mom was fourteen she and her brothers worked tobacco. A truck came to the city and all the kids met the truck. Then they went up north to the tobacco fields.
Corscaden was a grain manufacturer in Muff. The clothworkers and haberdashers had their estates in Artikelly and Articlave. Perhaps flax was grown there. In one of the directories I saw someone who was in flax. The John Stamp went down with raw cotton. So perhaps the younger workers worked locally and didn’t have to cross the Channel. If the middle aged ones did then maybe the H.I.S. paid the 2lb a head and hired a boat so workers could work H.I.S. lands in London.
The eldest workers worked the land on the estate or were weavers or farmers. It was four pounds to go to St John’s – the Manor of St John the Baptist, an H.I.S. colony then. It was seven pounds to go to America. So maybe a younger person contributed to his parent’s rent but didn’t have to pay the whole amount. Then after a few years money that was saved paid for a passage. If he worked in America the emigrant could get enough to send for the rest of the family. Are there any farm records for Muff etc?
londonderry
March 23, 2013 at 2:14 pm
I found this website quite interesting. Deep in the pages are some interesting historical things that I have not seen before – like the origin of ‘undertaker’. I am enjoying the research of all three of you. BTW, I have always wondered if my 6Grandfather, John Barnett was a Derry Boy. He was born in 1678 in Derry so he might have been on the young side e.g. 12-13. Keep up the research on your project. There may be more than one book here! When do you guys sleep?
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Hi, Vic
🙂 Its the different time zones. Gives the impression that we never sleep. We actually sleep in shifts so someone is awake at all times. 😀
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 3:14 pm
I have not finished reading the article yet, but the Orange Order seems to be picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are ‘correct’ and using them to advance their way of thinking. Those beliefs spew hatred and intolerance toward anything not of their liking. Even though the earlier Orange spoke of never showing impolite behavior toward Catholic brethren, the tenets of the Order would seem to make that an impossible task.
They are similar to the American evangelical Christians. Neither one bears any resemblance to the teachings of Christ.
Mary Cornell
March 23, 2013 at 8:37 pm
I am not exactly sure where my ancestors would have been in all of this. In the States they were Methodist Episcopal from the early 1800s forward. I do not know what they would have been in seventeenth century Ireland. Certainly not Methodist as it was before John Wesley. Coming from England, Episcopal maybe, or Church of England/Ireland. Or were they all one and the same?
Quick insights into my ancestors – my great grandfather once tried to start a church so that he would not have to pay taxes. It was called something like the Free Libertarians. My great-great-grandfather dropped the W in Cornwell in order to avoid the draft during the Civil War. His brother went to jail for being a horse thief. During the uprisings, they were most likely selling poteen on the road to or from the battle.
Waxwing
March 23, 2013 at 10:58 pm
Just to recap the main points of Mary’s earlier research as it related to her ancestors in the late 1600s into the 1700s (dangerous times indeed) in Northern Ireland:
A Cornwall was attainted by King James II and Parliament in 1689. The family most likely came earlier than that from Hertfordshire in England and they came to Ireland where they built or were otherwise associated with the Blackwater Fort in Armagh/Tyrone in 1575. It was there that articles of peace were signed with Turlough O’Neil, one of the main chieftains of Ireland. Through the line of Edward Cornwall who died before 6 March 1676 (named in the Hearth Money Roll of 1664) and Mary Mitchell of Annagry in Donegal, their four children included:
1. John Cornwall, of Cornwalls Grove in Newmills, three miles outside Dungannon, who married Barbara Lindsay (daughter of Dr. Alex Lindsay – second son of Robert Lindsay of Loughrey in Armagh – killed in the Siege of Derry).
2. Barbara, born 1674, buried 13 February 1747, of Newmills and probably Presbyterian.
3. John, born 1666, died 22 March 1731, who had eight children.
The impression is that the Cornells (Cornwells) moved in high circles. Like most courtiers, they may have fallen foul of the ruling elite at the time. If they owned Blackwater Fort, they were skating on very thin ice indeed.
Mary Cornell
March 24, 2013 at 5:36 am
I had forgotten about Blackwater Fort. I remember that we decided that the word was probably attainded, not attained. And that John Cornwall was sent to Ireland as punishment. John Cornwall was Constable of the fort during the 1570s. He was in charge of a very small guard. He was also a very bad caretaker of the fort. His removal was requested because of the deplorable condition of Blackwater. He remained for several more years until it is noted that there was a new Constable in place in 1583. Edward Cornwall later became Constable and was arrested for turning Blackwater over to the enemy. It was brought forward in his defense that he could not be held entirely responsible due to the condition of the fort.
I do not know if they were moving among the elite, but they surely seemed to fall foul both in England and in Ireland.
http://books.google.com/books?id=iR4OAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA104&lpg=RA1-PA114&ots=aHZmohuSgp&dq=John+Cornwall,+Blackwater+Fort&output=html_text
Waxwing
March 24, 2013 at 7:56 am
It all hinges on the word ‘attainder’.
A thorough definition and explanation of the legal term can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attainder
Anyone to whom the term applies has to have moved in high circles and in this case he came to the attention of the ruling monarch. That coupled with the Blackwater Fort connection clinches it for me.
The name Cornell (a variation of Cornwall) is from the South West of England. Cornish people are P-Celts, just like their Welsh and Breton cousins across the Channels, and linked to the Q-Celt Irish and Scots. According to Oppenheimer, all Atlantic Celts came from the the Pyreness after the Ice Age but the P-Celts didn’t make it across the Irish Sea. There were strong sympathies for the Jacobite cause in Cornwall and minor uprisings there as well. Who knows what side of the fence these early Cornells sat on?
As an aside, the hated Sir Charles Trevelyan who is usually held directly responsible for the millions of deaths of Irish people in the Great Famine, also was from Cornwall and appears to have had little sympathy for the plight of his fellow Celts. It’s a wonder that native Irish don’t burn his effigy, much as so-called Loyalists do with Lundy.
Eileen Breen
March 22, 2013 at 3:09 pm
Perhaps our farmers went across the channel to work for the harvest for a season or two before getting the money to make the transatlantic passage. On the estates of the Livery companies they were managed by various agents of the H.I.S. It wasn’t until the Wyndam Act Of 1903 that those farmers living on those estates were allowed to purchase their farms.One of the most successful agents was the Beresford family. He managed a few of the H.I.S. estates. On Bill McAfree’s site he has an in depth article on who managed the estates and who the agents were as well as the rents. I sent you a copy.
Beresford’s, Tristam (agent) and Randall Controlled the estate: (Haberdasher’s (Manor of Freemore). James Corscaden was connected by marriage. Corscaden’s daughter married Sir Robert Maxwell. Early on Sir Robert McClelland leased the estate and later the Marquis of Waterford the estate ranged over various parts of Ireland. Sir Robert McClelland from Scotland had a Ballycastle at Aghanloo and John Cooke of the shipping co leased property in 5 townlands. (One our names we looked up from J.S. came from Aghanloo. I think the J.S. passengers came off these estate’s)
Ironmonger’s (Manor Of Lizard) in 1842 12,686 acres. in 1614 George Canning was an agent at Castleagivey. Beresfords ran the estate. Paul Canning also leased the estate and others. Corscaden’s son’s middle name was Canning. Wyndam Passage act allowed tenants to purchase their farms in 1903.
Mercer’s (Manor Of mercer’s 1740 they talked about the effects of emigration on their estate. Leased by: Wilson, Hill, Marquess of Londonderry and Viscount Castlereagh. Wyndam Passage act 1903 allowed these tenants to purchased their land in 1903.
Merchant Taylors (Manor of St John Baptist): Michael Beresford agent. There are a few trees on ancestry I linked to that are doing the Beresford genealogy). Maybe they ended up in St John’s New Brunswick, canada one of the H.I.S. Colonies?
Draper’s (Manor Of Drapers): In Moneymore and Draperstown. Tenants bought farms in 1903 as result of the Wyndam Land Purchase Act.
Fishmonger’s (Manor Of Walworth): Also managed by Hamilton, Beresford families. Barre Beresford made improvements. Co. of Fishmongers repossessed the estate in 1820. The portion of the estate in Ballykelly also was improved. Agents: Sampson and Gage. Tenants bought their farms in 1903 by the Wyndam Land Purchase Act.
Goldsmith’s (Manor Of Goldsmith’s Hall): 1850 the estate was sold in the Encumbered Estate’s Court. The Alexander’s John and Alexander had this estate heavy in debt.
Manor of Grocer’s (Grocer’s) 1805 David Babington was Lawyer and agent tried to lease it but failed to get control of the land in 1822. The land was improved in Muff later renamed Elington. The rents were decreased 20-25%. In 1838 it was the best managed estates of the H.I.S. The Templemoyle Agricultural School now is on the property. In 1870 they tried to dispose of the land. In 20th century the farmers own their land and pay a fixed annuity yearly to the Land Commission instead of rent. I think Corscaden is associated w/ this estate. He came from Muff and he and his father were grocer’s / distiller’s).
Clothworker’s (Manor Of Clothworker’s: Agent Nicholas Elcock. Sir Robert McClelland in 1618 held the lease 51 years from the Clothworker’s. (I think R. McClelland is our Robert McClelland from this (estate and Haberdasher’s estate.) The estate was in Articlave. It bordered the Habadasher’s estate in Artikelly. McClelland brought people over from his Scotland estates to settle here. Early 1800’s the Jackson family had the estate. (This estate is near Antrim (President Andrew Jackson and the McQuillin family are supposed to be connected and from this area perhaps this is where they came from.) In 1840 surveyed and improved the land. in 1871 Sir Hervey Bruce and later Sir Fredrick Hervey, Bishop of Derry had this estate. The estate is part of the Downhill Estate. You can see photos of it on line. I think I also sent a photo. You can visit the estate. I have seen postcards of this estate.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 9:50 pm
Thanks for the tip!
1848 Tithe Applottment
Clooney, Clondermot, East Ward, Parish Of templemore (Londonderry). Business: Cary McClelland – I think R. McClelland is a typo. It’s C. McClelland (Cosignitory John Stamp). He and two family members are also in H.I.S. Minutes. Property is listed as: store, offices and yard. The Lessor was John Mehan H.I.S. Nearby to this property is Distillery Rd, Coleraine Railroad and another neighbor selling grain.
James Corscaden sold grain and his father and cousins (Youngs and Watts also were distillers, grocers and spirit dealers). The grain was shipped on Coleraine Railroad to the distillery for making alcohol for their business. Young(John Stamp) and Watts (Creole) were masters and cousins of James Corscaden on the two ships. James Corscaden was from Muff and there was a Joseph McClelland in Muff (Grocer) but not sure if he was related.
I put the 1848 Tithe record under Cary McClelland in the John Stamp tree and I’m thinking we should start a tree for Known Associates:J.S.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 3:10 am
The 1839 Londonderry Directory was organized by trades.
Corscaden: US Consul, ship owner, window and glass importer.
Hugh Corscaden 1830 Tithe: Clooney, Donegal
James Corscaden; Gortaward, Donegal
I saw the name Bersford on the estates of the Honorable Irish Society. Isabel Witherington Seckham married James Corscaden’s son William. She is part of this estate. That listing of the estates goes back to the Plantation in the H.I.S.
James Mehan, who was the lessor for James Corscaden in Clooney in the 1839 New Directory City of londonderry owned: Clooney Mills, was a Brewer. Corscaden was the grain dealer and Mehan (Ecclesiastical Commoner, H.I.S.) made the alcohol.
Anthony and Margaret Doak, Society St, Millners. Perhaps the H.I.S. recruited relatives of the H.I.S. to go to Philadelphia as the H.I.S. had business in both places and regularly went to Philadelphia. A lot of last names that are on the manifest for the John Stamp are also on this directory and 1852 directory. Maybe they cut the relatives a good deal!
Ewing, the Mayor in 1852, was a card maker (Also a H.I.S. co) for wool and tow.
John Munn, ship owner and part of the ones that bought Marcus Hill, was a grain merchant and flax spinner.
Sam Baird, also part of the group, was a grocer.
Rebecca Watt (cousin?) Corscaden was a millner in Butcher Street.
John Cooke, ship owner and Timber merchant in 1852 with brother Joseph, was an iron founder of John Cooke and Co. and also a Copper and Tin Smith (without his brother). who also bought Marcus Hill.
James McCrea Law on Foyle Street (part of the syndicate) “Corporation” bought Marcus Hill.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm
I read the H.I.S. were Masons. There’s a lot of numerology and symbolism. I think they have seven basic principles. They designed Londonderry to be a symbol of London. The Guildhall is the symbol of the Masons: A setting sun with seven rays coming from it representing the seven principles. There are seven gates radiating from the Wall Of Derry that they built with seven streets. Each street houses all fifty Livery Companies. the Livery Companies drew a lot during the Plantation to which estates they would receive. Each of the fifty estates represents a livery company.
The main goals of the H.I.S. was to live by the code or seven principles of the Masons. One of them is benevolence. They aided children’s charities, the poor and built schools and charities. The Ecclesiastical Commoners may represent the Anglican Church but also the Masons. You said the McCorkells were probably not members of the church but they could have been Masons. duPont is a name that sticks out from the rest and it. doesn’t seem to fit in but he may have been a Mason. The H.I.S. worked with the Hibernians, perhaps this was part of their charity work. Perhaps Duffy, duPont, McCorkle and Corscaden met in Philadelphia through the Masons. They may have also been Hibernians and there was a local chapter in Philadelphia.
They heard about Duffy’s Cut and they vowed to remember them. The symbol on Londonderry’s crest is a skeleton. The secret society that most of the U.S. Presidents belonged to was the Bones Club, a secret society from Yale University. Many US Presidents went to Yale. The main goal of the H.I.S. was to colonize and create a self-sustaining city in the image of the Masons and the H.I.S. and London. They colonized Jamestown, VA, and two other VA colonies, Boston, MA, Philadelphia and St John’s New Brunswick, Canada.
I bet their cities were set up with the capital being the sun and seven streets representing the seven Mason principles. Washington,D.C is also set up this way. The Statue Of Liberty has multiple Mason symbols, our dollar bill also. US has fifty states and H.I.S. has fifty estates. I’m not sure what fifty means to the Masons. The “stamp” is the Assurance of their allegiance of the H.I.S. to the King Of England. The stamp is the legalization of any paperwork to go before the “Corporation” through the court system, thus the King. Once they charged a tax (allegiance/assurance to the King) and the fee was paid the documents became legal in the eyes of the King. Since there is no separation between Church and State the H.I.S. was also equally represented in Church and State matters and I’m assuming the Masons. Need to find evidence to support this.
Eileen Breen
March 21, 2013 at 8:30 pm
The Honourable Irish Society and the Freemasons:
Three principles that are the foundation of the Freemasons: 1. Brotherly Love (Philadelphia is the City Of Brotherly Love.) Its members show compassion, understanding and respect the opinions of others. 2. Relief: Charity towards others. 3. Truth: They have high Moral Standards.
The seven Principles Of Freemasonry:
The Guild hall is the setting sun and the seven streets radiating from it are a symbol of the Freemasons. Each street represents the seven principles: 1. High Moral code: Decency, Conviction, charity. 2. Charity: Welfare and Happiness. 3. Education 4. Religious not Religion: to have faith is a basic principle of all religions. Religion not discussed. 5. Social responsibility:Truth/Justice, fraternity, philanthropy, orderly and civil, religious and intellectual liberty, loyal to the Government. 6.Non-Political 7. Equality Among Members. From the book: Principles of Freemasons For Dummies.
The Royal Arches
From the Royal Arch Degree: The Boundaries of Freemasonry: a quote from Deuteronomy 19:14 about not moving landmarks set by their ancestors and their heritage of receiving the land that their God gave to them. The landmarks may be the Wall of Londonderry and the land they inherited is the land from the Plantation which the fifty livery companies each have an estate.
Under Home Rule 1898:
The path of order was debated. The RC in Ireland (Hibernians) who wanted Home Rule thus the separation of church and state and the Protestants who were Unionists (Freemasons and H.I.S.) wanted the Anglican Church and Government to rule Ireland and to keep Ireland, Scotland and England under the control of the Crown. The Unionists feared the RC pope and its politics would have its influence over Ireland.
Freemason’s of London, England. Debate In The House Of Commons
The H.I.S. worked with the Hibernians in their charity work. In the debate the Government feared these two groups could be secret and sectarian and they forbade its police force from participating in any secret society except the Freemasons.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 2:55 am
This is just an observation:
The Honourable Irish Society (Protestant) on orders from London were to build a new city in the North of Ireland and call it London. Later the name was changed to Londonderry after the oak groves that once stood there. They built the wall of Londonderry with seven gates. They paid homage to themselves and they built the Guildhall. It represented the fifty Londonderry Companies called Honorable Irish Society. They were the government and when they needed more space they opened up more office space down the seven streets off the wall. Their homes were in the periphery near the Foyle so they could look at their ships. The Catholics and others lived in surrounding communities such as Donegal and outer County Derry. When the famine came in 1831 a slow trickle of emigration started. By the Great Famine the emigration trail to Londonderry City was a major emigration route to the shipping agents who were building, buying, selling ships, transporting commodities and selling tickets to the New World ships.
Eileen Breen
March 20, 2013 at 2:04 am
From 1852 Provincial Directory for Londonderry
Cary McClelland: Grain Merchant, Bleacher on Foyle St.
James McClelland Grocer, Oil And Colour Merchant (paint), Diamond.
Matthew McClelland Builder, architect Garnkirk Coal Co., Orchard St.
The three McClellands appeared in the Honorable Irish Society’s minutes. They didn’t hold offices in the town government in 1852. None of these were R. McClelland but maybe he belongs to them.
I was thinking the John Stamp might have been a J. and J. Cooke ship. The Cookes were in the H.I.S. I wonder if John comes from John Cooke and ‘Stamp’ comes from their job. Justice Of the Peace or, if they represented the Salters, they were responsible for Weights and Measures – making sure scales were correct, collecting licences, munitions (duPont had many ships carried munitions to PA). Were the ships duPont used from J. and J. Shipping Lines?
The Honorable Irish Society was the town government for Derry and it represented fifty livery companies. Our syndicate represented the top twelve Liver Companies and the Mayor was Joseph Ewing M.D. HIS had Members of the Court, a Governor, a Deputy Governor, an Immediate Parting Governor, a Recorder, Aldermen (5) and Commoners (18). Aldermen and councillors represented North ward, East ward and South ward; Other offices were under this.
Eileen Breen
March 19, 2013 at 11:16 pm
I believe that the twelve Great Livery Companies/Honorable Irish Society/London Companies of which our men were members funded the John Stamp. From the 1832 minutes, Robert McClelland and two family members were in the minutes. R. McClelland whom Mary found was a cosignatory.
Also the Grocers were from Muff, including James Corscaden. The Youngs were probably related and all listed in the 1852 Londonderry Provincial Directory. Joseph Young was not not found but the Youngs were e general merchants, grocers and spirit dealers (vintners). John Young, master, was also not found but he may have been related. Also Jamestown and two other settlements were funded by the Honorable Irish Society. It’s the 400th year Anniversary of their society.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 3:17 pm
In the 1600s, of three brothers from the McCorkell family, one went to Philadelphia, PA, one went to Londonderry (The shipping McCorkells) and one they lost sight of. The McCorkells settled and named the towns in PA: Raphoe, Derry, Donegal and others. They considered themselves Irish according to the the article ‘Some Prominent Friends Of Pennsylvania’. They had Donegal roots as well. On the John Stamp ad just above it is an ad for the ship ‘Clansman’. McCorkell Company and a Richard Corscaden are named as James Corscaden and Co.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 9:09 pm
1852 Provincial Directory, the Who’s Who of the McCorkell and Corscaden Associates in County Londonderry: Londonderry, Lisburn, Charlemont and Lurgan.
Barry McCorkell inherited the McCorkell Shipping Line from his father and he owned two ships and J. and J. Shipping Lines and Businessman John Kelso owned five ships. These were passenger ships that used sail. The McCorkells tried to stay current and when J. and J. went out of business they owned eight ships: Village Bell (1863-1888), Lady Emily Peel (1864-67), Stadagona (1863-1875), Minehaha (1860-1895) and the Mohongo (1851-1872).
There was a syndicate of merchant owners who bought the ship Marcus Hill. This led the way for these owners to establish shipping business on their own. J.J. owned five, McCorkell owned two and the associates owned the rest. In the Provincial Directory you can see where they were located on Williams St, Shipquay St, Queen St, Foyle St and Main St. The associates were involved in the shipping business, held government offices, insurance companies for the ships, were of nobility and gentry and were in the spirit dealing, grocery and distillery business.
I think Master Young from the John Stamp was from this family. It said that on the Creole (from another source), the Master was Watt. In Londonderry the Watts were distillers: Watt and Company, Spirit Store, Shipquay St, Distillary, Abby St. I think Watt and Robert Corscaden may be related? Robert Corscaden was James Corscaden’s father. He was a Spirit Dealer on Shipquay St.
I’ll try to make a list of what and who was on Shipquay St later. There was a W. and L. Young that were spirit dealers and grocers on Market Square, also listed in Lisburn under the Traders’ section. There was a Francis Young, a grocer in Charlemont, S. and W. Young who were publicans and grocers on Main St. Young is listed in Lurgan so maybe Robert Corscaden, Watt family and Young family were businessman who were related in some way.
Two McClellands are listed, a James and a Matthew, but I couldn’t find a Robert McClelland. James was a merchant at the Diamond and Matthew was a builder and Architect General Garnkirk Coal Co on Orchard St. More later about the others.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 11:46 pm
From 1852 Provincial Directory
Associates who purchased the ship, Marcus Hill (the first ship that was made, provisioned and sailed out of Derry in many years), were James Corscaden, Barry McCorkle, James McCrea, Daniel Baird, John Munn, William Buchanan, Joseph Young and Dr John Kelso. Their occupations were ship owners, spirit dealers, grocers, publicans, assurance agents, shipping agents, masters of ships, lawyers, gentlemen, physician, government official, court magistrates and secretary of the library.
These guys had it all figured out!
James Corscadden b. 1808 in Muff, Donegal married ‘Fanny’ Francis Gallagher b Ballyarnet, Donegal near Burtonport, Donegal. They had five sons and two daughters. He was a grain merchant on Shipquay Street after the emigration trade decreased, so he and Barry McCorkell began importing grain. Also known as an associate was Stuart Christie, brother-in-law, who with Munn owned the Royal William. They sold it and purchased the Charlotte Douglas, Creole, Erin and Sarah Sands. The master was a cousin, Captain Thompson.
Also from the 1852 Directory:
The Northern Fire and Life and the Caledonian Life Assurance offices were located on Shipquay Place, Londonderry, the next street over. Also, he was Consul for Foreign Affairs to the U.S. in Londonderry in 1854-56, 1857-8 and 1861-2 and Town Councillor for North Ward, Londonderry. His son Robert married Annette “Minnie” McCorkell (1857-1895) – the family married into the McCorkell family a few times.
Barry McCorkle inherited the McCorkell shipping Line from his father. Of the seven ships he owned, five were lost to shipwreck. Between 1864-1871 there were thirty sailings; between 1863-1874 there were 45 sailings; and there were multiple sailings between 1873-1889. The glory days of the shipping business ended in 1895 with the loss of emigration and the wrecks of five of the seven ships he owned.
McCorkells were also associated with Victor duPont who manufactured Eagle cannon munitions which they shipped regularly to Boston and Philadelphia. Munitions were transported on a number of McCorkell Ships with various masters. The duPont factory in Londonderry had two fires that injured a few workers and nearly destroyed their munitions business. There was also a fire on one of the boats that was carry supplies that spilt on board the ship and almost set the munitions on fire.
On-line there are duPont letters and a book about the duPont family. I sent you all the link to the book. Many members of their business in U.S. helped the duPont family immigrate to U.S. after the two explosions in their munitions factory. They also talked about the ships that would come down their river in Philadelphia. So they may have owned land in Philadelphia and they had an office on Pine St, Philadelphia. Phillip Duffy also lived on Pine St.
J. and J. Shipping was owned by Joseph and John Cooke who were also Timber Merchants in Strand St, Londonderry. They wned five ships during this time but they also had many more – for a listing, go under the Ships of the J. and J. Shipping Line . They were the leading shipping industry until the McCorkell shipping line began. They may have owned some of them with Dr John Kelso who according to the 1852 Provincial Directory of Derry was a surgeon and apothecary. he is listed under the Nobility and Gentry Section of the Directory and he was located in the Market Square section of the city. Dr Kelso was a member of the literary Society and he held the position as Secretary.
J. and J. Shipping Lines had multiple Atlantic Crossings from Londonderry to Philadelphia,U.S., St John’s, New Brunswick, Canada and Louisiana. U.S. records on-line can be found from 1836, 1847-1855. Ships that left Ireland to Philadelphia were Envoy (1849,1850), Superior (1847, 1850, 1853), Sarah Schaffe (1836), Hartford (1847), Heshell (1847), Montpeliar (1847), Alleghany (1847), Mary Stewart 91847), Garland (1848), 1849), Barbara (1850) and multiple other ships. 25 Crossings are listed.
Other Parties were:
James McCrea: General Merchant, Foyle St
Daniel Baird: General Merchant, Ship Owner, Court Magistrate.
John Munn: City Spinning Mills, Queen St, Agent Steam Packets, Londonderry.
William Buchanan: Borough Magistrate, Londonderry.
Charles Young: General merchant, Foyle St
Thomas Young: Coach Factory on Foyle St
Eileen Breen
March 19, 2013 at 12:54 pm
You both also find awesome articles and present a lot of great ideas!
When I looked at the 1852 Londonderry Directory I was puzzled why a bunch of ship owners would want a pharmacist. I thought he couldn’t make so much money to buy a ship. Then this theory came to me:
The Syndicate of known associates that bought the ship Marcus Hill all represent one of the top twelve Livery Companies that are in the Honorable Irish Society that comprised land owners and merchants in Derry who donated money for charities? There may have been one member of the group who was the syndicate’s leader, probably the company that was the most successful financially which would have been McCorkell? Many of the associates had offices on Shipquay St, Queen St, Williams St and Strand St – all in the same area (see Ancestry google map).
Some of the top companies were the Mercers which were traders in textiles called Mercery and the John Stamp was transporting raw cotton when it sank in 1839. James Corscaden, if he was the shipping agent, could have been a head of this company.
The Worshipful Company Of Salters promoted the use of salt in the preparation of food and chemicals. The Vintners Company originally setled in Derry in the 1700s to sell wine without a license and they wanted a monopoly to import wine. Corscaden and his father were spirit dealers.The Grocers Company regulated the rarity of spices, setting the weights and measurement to pharmacist (Dr Kelso). Pharmacies also bought saltpetre for medicinal use.
Two other choices perhaps for head of the association could have been duPont, who owned a munitions factory that made cannonballs and that sold saltpetre to local stores in Philadelphia, and who also had a huge fleet of ships transporting gunpowder from Derry to Boston and Philadelphia; or Dr John Kelso who was the surgeon and apothecary.
Eileen Breen
March 16, 2013 at 11:33 am
I saw a George Corscaden when I was looking at records. I’ll have to look at it again. In newer records from the 1900s I saw the Corscadens on Shankhill Road in Belfast attached to a name from a family tree. We saw that road on the trip on the way into the center of Belfast when the driver pointed it out. I also saw in thebphone book page several Corscadens in Belfast. Perhaps John Young and R. MacClelland worked for Corscadden and Co., the McCorkell Line or maybe were embers of the Honorable Irish Society.
Eileen Breen
March 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm
I put up an advertisement on Ancestry under James Corscaden and a notice from the Belfast Newsletter that the John Stamp arrived and noted that it wrecked. I saw the notice in the Belfast Newsletter but I couldn’t find the ad for the J.S. leaving. Ancestry only put up four pages and I looked through the month of March and I couldn’t find it. The ad came from the Facebook page for Duffy’s Cut. Title Films had found it. If the Belfast Newsletter reporting it I wonder if Corscaden also used the Belfast port. I saw the ship the Erin in Belfast Port – Corscaden has this name as one of his ships – but maybe another shipping line used the name. I didn’t see any of his other ships in the advertisements.
Waxwing
March 16, 2013 at 8:25 am
Tony Blair’s mum was Hazel Corscadden from Ballyshannon which is in South West Donegal
http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/blairs-proud-of-ballyshannon-roots-as-councillor-renews-invitation-1-1996086
Eileen Breen
March 13, 2013 at 8:46 pm
Robert MacClellan(d) was a cosignatory of a loan to stock the John Stamp from Londonderry to Quebec. I read it took $3000 to fund the cost of a ship. MacClelland was part of the Harberdashers, one of the twelve London Companies that funded the Plantation Of Ulster. He and his sons were in the Harberdashers and Clothing Manufacturer’s Companies in 1800s. They had a thread and cotton manufacturing company in Banbridge. The Harberdasher’s and Cotton Manufacturer’s are still in existence. I wrote to them to see if they know anything but I haven’t heard yet or if we have the correct person. As Mary said his name was on several ships: Barque John Stamp, Brig John, Victoria, England and Jupiter. The Master was John Young who probably received fifty acres of land in Philadelphia for each head brought to Philadelphia. After he collected a sizable sum he sold the land for money then was off to his new adventure and the passengers were off serving 7-14 years as an indentured servant. Although 1832 was late for the period Indentured Service still may have existed. Philadelphia was first to abandon it for the paid workers and looked to the fresh new class of workers from Europe that funded their own passage to North America. Or families in America sent money to Ireland to help fund the passage. If we can find John Young as land owner in Philadelphia or surrounding farmland that would be a good find. I would like to find the agent and the ship owner of the John Stamp. I also would like to find which London Companies owned land in Derry and Donegal and maybe match them to cosignatories on the ships leaving the Derry Port to Philadelphia or elsewhere.
Eileen Breen
March 14, 2013 at 7:31 pm
The John Stamp, a 401 ton Newcastle barque was according to the Watson’s book owned by James Corscaden and Company. Passengers wanting passage on thebJ.S. were asked to apply to him between April 7- April 13, 1832 at 26 Shipquay St, Londonderry, Ireland.
Shipquay St. is near Guild Hall where all offices representing the trades and the London Companies were to be found. Corscadden was as a shipping agent who owned several ships himself. He married into the McCorkell family of the McCorkell Line that ran from Ireland to Englandnwho were major ship owners. He had several joint ventures with J and J Cooke and John Munn, ship owners. On 2/21/ 1834 he was U.S. Consul under U.S. President Jackson. In 1850 and 1854 he was a appointed as consular agent.
Eileen Breen
March 14, 2013 at 9:32 pm
Patrick
I emailed a Mary Herbert, a relative of the shipping agent James Corscaden, for more information. Corscadden owned ships, Creole, Fanny, Royal William, Charlotte Douglas, Erin and Sarah Sands.
I also put up a profile for him on Ancestry.com. I found several entries for him under Griffiths Valuation – for Templemore, James St and Queen St. He was a lessor for a William Doherty on Williams St. and owned several properties and businesses in the Shipquay St area.
The J.S. master was John Young. On the ship Crole, Barry McCorkell was the Principal. We have R. McClellan as the Co-signatory. Maybe the McCorkells of the McCorkell Line were also a co-signatory or principal to the John Stamp. Corscadden and McCorkell were connected by marriage and business.
I found a passenger record for Corscadden to Philadelphia in 1850s. Also near the entries to Corscadden’s company the McCorkell business were listed as multiple entries. The Honorable Irish Society (Londonderry Company of the Plantation Of Ulster) were also listed as lessors to other businesses near Corscaden and McCorkell properties.
Eileen Breen
March 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm
We have our Donegal connection. James Corscaden, ship owner, merchant and shipping agent, connected to the McCorkells was born in Muff, Donegal. Five families researched the name plus large family tree on another site. He owned 156 acres in Ballyarnet, Muff, Donegal in 1876. His wife was also from Donegal and they were married there. There is a photo of house where the eldest son lived but I think the house may have been in England.
Waxwing
March 14, 2013 at 10:43 pm
Excellent work, Eileen, keep digging!
Patrick
March 15, 2013 at 1:17 am
In Griffiths Valuation there is a Robert McClelland who owns a little land in Donagh parish. At a later point there is a Rev Thomas McClelland who owned land in the parish of Muff. I would not like to say Robert is the same one as that of 1832 but it may be worth looking into. I don’t know any more about Rev Thomas but being in the same parish as the Corscaddens he may be related to them in some way or another.
Eileen Breen
March 16, 2013 at 5:52 am
Robert Corscadden b abt 1790 (James’ father) also was a merchant, grocer and spirit dealer on Shipquay St. When James who married into the McCorkell family died his probate was 912 pounds. The family became wealthier as time went on. Two of James’ sons were lawyers and gentlemen. Another family member married Annette “Minnie” McCorkell. Two of the women in the family also married well. On Ancestry, I put up a few photos of Shipquay St, very close to number 26 Shipquay St where passengers of the John Stamp went to purchase their tickets for the voyage. Also a photo of Shipquay Gate and the Guildhall. James Corscadden Sr b 1808 lost a grandson in World War I in France in 1917.
Eileen Breen
March 13, 2013 at 12:41 pm
In Pennsylvania indentured servitude lasted until 1829. Possibly a few years after this. Ship owners and agents made an agreement. If the agent could persuade someone to take the voyage he got a fee for selling someone into white slavery. People would go on the ships and coerced people into making such an agreement. They would go to the Justice Of The Peace to make the contract legal. The ship’s master would receive 50 acres of land. The master would save the certificates until he had a sizable number of acres. He would then sell the land at a profit.
Waxwing
March 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Also from Eileen
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Inishowen/
Click to access ArchiveCollectionTeachersGuide.pdf
There were certain conditions that were applied to assess how distressed or needy a family was to qualify for State Relief and admission to a Poorhouse. The highly eccentric Dr Whatley, Archbishop of Dublin (mentioned extensively on this website in earlier posts) was in charge of the Poor Law Commission so what chance did the inmates have?
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Ireland/
Waxwing
March 12, 2013 at 8:29 am
The McCorkell line was the best known and was local to Derry.
http://www.mccorkellline.com/ships.htm
There was also J&J Cooke but I think they came a bit later.
I don’t think either of these companies owned any of our four ships.
Many of the ships came from Liverpool and stopped off in Derry en route, others may have been chartered.
http://liverpolitan.im/main/ships/ships_j.htm
The John Stamp. as far as I can see, foundered off the County Down coast in 1939 while carrying cotton from Bombay to Liverpool
http://www.irishwrecksonline.net/Lists/DownSouthListC.htm
Eileen Breen
March 12, 2013 at 8:47 pm
Mary found a name, Robert MacClellan, who owned the John Stamp in 1835 that sailed from Derry to Quebec from 25 April – 17 June 1835. Ship master was John Young who also mastered J.S. June 1832 to Philadelphia from Derry. MacClellan also owned the barque Jupiter that sailed Apr 9- May 15 1835 from Liverpool; Brig John that sailed 26 April- 19 June 1835 from Dublin: and the Victoria and England. In 1832, 455 vessels arrived in Quebec from Derry, carrying 28,016 passengers.
The Derry merchants in Derry Port became owners of the shipping lines and steamships but Robert MacClellan was not on the list. The Derry merchants also positioned themselves close to rail lines in Strabane and Enniskillin. The major landowners involved in trade of commodities in the Derry/ Donegal area in the 1830s were Marquis Of Abercorn and London Fishmongers Co. John Adair (Derryveagh) was one of the first six people to own a car in Donegal and he listed the reason for its use was for trade.
Innishowen didn’t receive a rail line until 1888 but the Derry area had a few rail lines: the Coleraine Line and the Enniskillin Line. Some of the steamship owners, import merchants and distillers who promoted the Enniskillin Line were shareholders in the Londonderry / Coleraine Company. Anther name involved in trade was the North West Steam Packet Company. The Corporation managed the city of Derry.
The use of steam by the railroads and shipping companies made transportation of people, cattle, produce and goods an inexpensive way to get commodities to the market and facilitated emigration to US, Australia, England, Scotland and Canada.
Eileen Breen
March 11, 2013 at 1:49 am
27 July 1829: Ship: Dumfries. Joseph Harvey Of Baltimore, Master. Ship owned : Thomas Adair and John Adair Owners. (Is this Glenveagh Clearances: John Adair?) 126 passengers. Londonderry to Philadelphia.
13 July 1830 Ship: Asia. Willard, Master of Londonderry. To Philadelphia
26 June 1830 Brig Symmetry. Alexander Dall of Londonderry for Philadelphia. Listed crew, many were from Derry. 190 passengers. Listed many towns where the passengers were from. Many from Derry, Donegal, Omagh. I have the list of the towns : over 30 listed
7 Aug 1830. Ship: Eagle. Henry B. Rose, Master. of Alexandria, from Derry to Philadelphia. Owed by Walter Smith, Georgetown, D.C. and H.B. Rose (Master / owner). 1/3 page listed: mechanics, farmers, laborers.
13 July 1830. Ship: Minstrel Boy. John Whelan, Master from Derry to Philadelphia.
4 Aug 1830 Ship: Haleyon. William Patterson, Master. from Derry to Philadelphia. Owners hard to read: Bryan Janes?, K, Lan?, Lee Daser?. Lists laborers and 2 citizens of US.
13 June 1828 Ship: Wyoming. Joseph Coulon, Master, from Derry. Owned by John Welsh of Philadelphia. From Derry to Philadelphia.
I was thinking these are some of the ships 1828-1830 (June-Aug). Perhaps Phillip Duffy’s housemates on the 1830 census came from one of these ships. Also it would be interesting to see if the ships and owners ring a bell with landlords in Donegal as Patrick suggested. I found a list of Donegal landowners but it only gives townland and how many acres. The Symmetry was the only one that listed the townlands. The Eagle had one full page each of mechanics, laborers and farmers. I’ll check out if there were any ships for 1831-34.
Patrick, I don’t know if you’re interested but on Ancestry we have the passengers from the four ships in 1832 put up as a family tree. If you want to be a contributor you can give Don your email and he can send you the link and make you a contributor to the site. John Ruddy is on the John Stamp family tree.
Waxwing
March 10, 2013 at 1:00 pm
Hi Vic
If my memory serves me right, I can’t take credit for correcting the ‘I believe’ statement. I think that was passed on second-hand by me from Prof Christine Kinealy whom I enlisted as an associate editor. Nonetheless, the point is well made. I would like to say that Drew University in Madison NJ where she is a full professor is a cut above Immaculata. Neither is in the league of top-ranked Universities in North America.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking/region/north-america
However, Drew University’s ranking in the 2013 edition of Best National Liberal Arts Colleges is 100th whereas Immaculata University’s ranking is in Tier 2. The subscription to Drew per annum is over $100 million; that to Immaculata is one-tenth of Drew’s.
So that just leaves how do they compare as Professors as rated by their students.
Bill Watson
Bill gets an overall rating of 3.9 out of five which isn’t bad but he gets no marks for hotness!
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=244287
One remark for him goes:
“This teacher is a mess. His lectures are boring and unorganized. I had such an interest in this subject prior to the class and I feel I learned nothing”.
That remark is untypical as most feedback is positive and other descriptions of him are, “nutty, crazy, hilarious, easy, confused, amazing, brilliant, funny, painless, helpful, eccentric, amazing, compulsive, unsure, captivating, maniacal”. With all that, how did he lose out on hotness!
Overall, the impression of Bill Watson seems to be that he is the archetypal Nutty (but endearing) Professor.
Christine Kinealy
Christine gets an overall rating of 4.9 out of 5 and she also gets no marks or hotness:
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=1175189
One comment goes “Incomparable professor…she is the best I have ever, ever experienced in all my undergraduate and graduate years! She is so knowledgeable, approachable, and encouraging. Her enthusiasm for Irish history is contagious. My academic life has been enhanced in such a positive way due to her high standards and exceptional teaching style”.
Descriptions of her include,’humorous, empathic,knowledgeable, engaging”.
Eileen Breen
March 18, 2013 at 1:04 am
Christine Kinealy was our 2013 Ambassador Award Winner for our St Patrick’s Day parade. She also got a nice article in our local paper about her accomplishments. She’s going to be a professor at Quinnipiac College in CT. They have the first Famine Memorial in the U.S. and the largest library on Irish history in the U.S.
Waxwing
March 18, 2013 at 7:46 am
Well done, Christine! I must congratulate her once I know what’s happening with ‘The Sea is Wide’. I’ll leave it till then as otherwise she will be asking. Incidentally, I wasn’t that impressed with her chapter as I know she can write much better.
Quinnipiac University statistics where Christine went make interesting reading.
The student intake of 2011 (similar to that of 2013) was 5,500 of 12,000 applicants (47%). Two-thirds of the intake were female and ninety per cent of them were in the top half of their high school class; half ranked in the top quarter; a quarter ranked in the top tenth. Most students hailed from the American Northeast: New York (29%), Connecticut (21%), New Jersey (19%), and Massachusetts (18%). Three quarters received financial aid and over ninety per cent were white.
Go figure!
Eileen Breen
March 10, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Patrick
That’s a good point about the Scottish Clearances and the landlords who paid to hire the ships. If we can find information on the landowners in Donegal and look at ships that left Derry to Philadelphia from 1828-1834 maybe something will come up. Perhaps Duffy only ‘hired’ Captain John Young from the John Stamp one time but the real boss as you say was the landlord in Donegal. Perhaps the landowner trying to clear the land did the hiring.
Eileen Breen
March 10, 2013 at 12:26 pm
Tipperary (where Duffy was from) lost 24% of its population and Donegal lost 14% post-famine. That surprised me because I read Donegal had struggled so much during the Famine.
Patrick
March 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm
Regarding Captain John Young, I think it would be safe to assume that the folk on the John Stamp, or the labourers at least, were indentured servants. I was looking into something a while ago that suggested that the ship captain could well be the owner of the contracts and he would sell these to whoever when the ship arrived in port. I just wonder if these captains paid someone for the contracts before leaving port then sold them on for a profit on arrival. Just guessing of course but perhaps this was a way of paying for the crossing and perhaps to pick up cargo in the US.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 11:50 pm
Thank you, Patrick, for all the information you have given us. I find it interesting that many who were recruited may have been neighbors. A lot of land must have been sold at this time. It seems unusual that a whole neighborhood would decide to leave at the same time. It will be interesting to discover the circumstances under which they left.
As Vic pointed out the recruiter alluded to greener pastures in new lands but there must be more to this story. Is it more likely in a community that 1-2 families would experience hard times than for eleven families at the same time? I wonder who owned or purchased the land before and after the migration. Some family may have stayed behind.
Our problem is we don’t know the truth because we don’t have copies of the dental records, findings of the coroner, findings of the anthropologist. We only have access to published articles from second hand sources. Do the anthropologist and coroner have to make the records public?
Mary Cornell
March 9, 2013 at 12:36 am
I think Patrick’s family knowledge just gave us one of our most important clues to those passengers on the John Stamp. I do not think that the presence of those nine names on the passenger list are a coincidence. If we were mapping right now, all ten pins would be in the same spot. Also,the disappearance of so many men from one area would have to have had some kind of newspaper article. It would not have gone unnoticed.
If we can place the other names in the same vicinity, it would show that recruiting was taking place. And I do agree with Eileen and Vic that something was transpiring to cause what is almost a leaving en masse from this area. A promise of greener pastures, you say. How wrong that turned out to be.
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 12:42 am
I take the point of why should it be that the odd person should leave a townland rather than a wholesale exodus. I think this has been touched on before that there must have been a tacit agreement that a junior member of a family would leave when a critical number of family members within a household had been reached. Migration has been described elsewhere as a ‘safety valve’. Also, the gender mix within a household may have ome into it. For a household that made its living from cottage production of linen, three daughters spinning, a male weaving and several males cultivating the flax could just about sustain that household.
Eileen Breen
March 9, 2013 at 1:35 am
On the Tithe Applottement 1829 in Carramore, Donagh lists William Ewing and a John Ewing. Both are not on the J.S. Are Robert Ewing b. 1814 18 years old and John Ewing b. 1816 16 years old one is a weaver and one is a laborer as Patrick said. Are William and/ or John the father (s) of the 2 young men?
Patrick, Are we just looking at Carrowmore? I don’t see as many listings for Donagh, Carndonagh as I see Carrowmore and Carrowreagh, Maghredrummin
Eileen Breen
March 9, 2013 at 1:40 am
I like the idea that the migration was a pressure valve. It would be interesting to see if other communities lost as many to America and elsewhere at the rate Donegal did. It must have been sad to see so many of your neighbors leave at the same time. As we talked about before, the young ones all left leaving just the older folks who may have not been able to do the work or create new jobs.
Eileen Breen
March 17, 2013 at 12:39 pm
Advertisement from the londonderry Sentinel, March 1832
‘The Story of Duffy’s Cut’ #26, also read citations no 27-31 on p.189 in the book.
Advertisement in the Belfast Newsletter, Tuesday, July 24, 1832 and citation no 32 in the book and p 190 listed the John Stamp as being wrecked. p 69 in the book.
These were the only references to the ship I saw. I tried to find them without success in Ancestry. They said Tile Films found the advertisements. Maybe PRONI had it.
I have written to three Corscaden families on Ancestry and Joe McCorkell to ask about the John Stamp but I have received no answer. The only time I saw records on Ancestry for the John Stamp was in the ship manifest. I don’t think we will find it on line. I may have said it incorrectly that he only hired this ship as I never found any other.
Mary Cornell
March 17, 2013 at 11:07 pm
I have been unable to find any sources that can verify if the JS was under hire from anyone other than McClellan. I believe the Watson’s book only said that Duffy hired the men off the ship, it does not say that he specifically hired the JS for the purpose of transporting laborers from NI. And all of the other sources that I can find, seem to be secondary sources quoting the Watsons. All saying thay Duffy met the ship at the dock and hired the workers from there.
Your playwright could have a bit of truth in his language depiction, but probably several centuries off, certainly not in 1833.
Waxwing
March 18, 2013 at 7:43 am
Hi Mary
Thanks for the link on Derry Port
http://ied.dippam.ac.uk/records/35772
It brings some memories back as my Dad was a merchant seaman. He sailed with various shipping lines out of Belfast, possibly also Derry, and he reminisced about the Anchor and Laird Lines, amongst others. I must have absorbed some of this and I dreamt of becoming a ship’s officer but I put that idea out of my head when I discovered I was colour- blind! Not being able to tell between starboard and port on oncoming vessels could have been a bit of a problem! As it was, the British merchant fleet had virtually disappeared by the time I came of age and I had no interest in the Royal Navy.
Waxwing
March 9, 2013 at 12:54 pm
Not to mention the swingeing increases on whiskey taxation around those times. Whisky distillation was a major source of income for Inishowen and the reputation of its whisky/poitin/moonshine was known far and wide.
http://www.movilleinishowen.com/history/moville_heritage/moville_heritage_htm/illicit_distillation_in_inishowen.htm
For those who fancy trying their hand at making their own whiskey at home, here is a cookbook:
Click to access Making_Pure_Corn_Whiskey_A_Professional_Guide_for_Amateur_Distillers.pdf
Don’t forgot to invite me to the party!
Patrick
March 10, 2013 at 12:17 am
I don’t know if this will help but perhaps the “recruiting” was done by the landlords or their agents if it was recruiting. I seem to recall when reading into the Scottish Highland Clearances of the landlords “Clan Chief?” arranging and paying passage for some the the people during that time and if memory serves me well some people were given little choice but to accept the “kind” offer
Eileen Breen
March 10, 2013 at 2:53 am
The Morton Skull Project at Penn is interesting as it highlights racial bias in studying human remains. The scientist Gould felt Morton was biased in his research but it was Gould that was. Monge stated did the “end justify the means” when Gould attempted to discredit Morton. In this case it didn’t because it showed Gould as the one who was more racist. My concern for our project is that if we discredit the Watsons’ theory, what do we want to happen as a result? The Watsons have put a few of their racial biases into the mix. Perhaps this is why William and his family want to let sleeping dogs lie? (pun).
The full interview with Janet Monge who also worked on the Duffy’s Cut project shows her to be very knowledgeable. Why did she not intervene when the Ruddys told them that these teeth were pulled not missing. I would also like to know how they can tell if a tooth was just missing or could have been pulled. It should have sent a red flag that if several members of the family had teeth pulled then perhaps John did too.
In 1830 mercury fillings were available in US. Not sure about Ireland. So why was the tooth not fixed? Also teeth were pulled from healthy people and sold for money for making dentures. I saw an interview that said some of the gum and tendons were present on the teeth they found. I’m not so convinced. I couldn’t find any papers presented by Monge or Patterson who spoke in Ireland to dentists on two occasions about the anomaly.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 9:06 pm
I agree with you that it looks like the Watson’s thesis is false. I was just reading too much into what the Watsons might say: The modern Ruddys also had teeth extracted and it’s a possibility that John did too so maybe we could go with that theory too.
I was looking at the “hotlist” for the Ruddys and there were only a few from Inishowen: McGonigle, Nicholl, McKendrick, Weir, Gibson, Quigley, McKnight and McIlwain. Not seeing Clonmany.
Don’t work too hard in England!
Londonderry
March 8, 2013 at 8:38 pm
Greetings to all! I have been quiet on the net lately, yet have enjoyed the evolving “discovery” phase. Having visited Donegal with my wife several years ago and witnessing some of the parks there which describe the poor times in that area over the years, I suspect that even any promise of something better likely would have drawn these boys to the Duffy’s work. It’s a lot like young men going to war, e.g. WWI, where things look far rosier than they actually are. Especially, when the promoter markets the benefits and conveniently forgets the hardships in their pitch.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:09 pm
FFT: Is the DNA we are talking about present in all teeth or just in the missing one? Do they have to test teeth, blood or just a buccal swab? Also how do we know the tooth is missing from birth or just knocked out when the the alleged violence happened to the men?
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:13 pm
Also it would be interesting to note how many in the current Ruddy family still have the missing front molar. Would this indicate how strong the genetic link still is or the prevalence of the genetic link to the Ruddy family VS those still in Ireland.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:48 am
I guess that would be so.
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 2:31 pm
Patrick: Do you know if any of the Ruddys who married into your family also had the missing first pre molar?
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 8:56 pm
Patrick: On UTUBE I saw a few videos on Donegal. One said Quigley’s Point was also known as Carrowkeel. In the 1911 and 1901 Census of Ireland I didn’t find any Ruddys. I did see the name in a few places. Did the Ruddy family come from Portnoo or Quigley’s Point originally?
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 11:23 pm
There is as you say a lesser-known Carrowkeel just outside Quigley’s Point and the better-known one is in the next peninsula along, Fanad Peninsula, just north of Milford.
According to Griffiths, there were three small pockets of Ruddys in Donegal – in Portnoo, Inishowen and Ballyshannon. By 1901 they were almost exclusive to Clonmany and Culdaff in Inishowen.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 12:50 am
Ruddys weren’t Flaxgrowers nor did they sign the Act of Union. They may be under the name Roddy. I saw in the 1901 and 1911 census the Clonmany and Inishowen groups. Griffiths may be our only clue for the time period we are looking into with the different groups you pointed out.
Patrick
March 8, 2013 at 1:35 am
A few things need cleared up.
Firstly no member of the Ruddy family ever claimed to have a missing first molar. I will use the comment Liam made in the Inishowen Annual to explain what he actually said, ‘Scottish born Liam Ruddy takes up the story: ” I decided to contact the team because of two strange coincidences – the name Ruddy and the genetic tooth defect. At the age of seventeen I had a molar removed from my top left set of teeth because it was impacting on the rest of the teeth in that area. I can remember my dentist telling me I had too many teeth for the size of my gums – our Ruddy line have a narrow jawline. I found this a bit coincidental but subsequently found it is a family trait as my two sisters are also missing certain top and bottom molars for the same reason”.
Secondly, the William Ruddy who was said to have travelled to the USA to give DNA samples when he heard of the project is a myth. What really happened was Liam was in New York on holiday and because we were interested in the project he decided to go to PA on a day trip and visit the site and hopefully talk to the Watsons which he managed to do. How this got turned round into the myth we do not know but we can only think some press person embellished the story.
The problem of the narrow jawline does run through our family group (my daughter included) but for me this is different from a missing moler and indeed explains the dentist (Matt Patterson?) being far from happy with this.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 7:49 am
That was extremely helpful, Patrick, and thanks for that.
The bones in Ardara then belong to any of the following?
John Stamp
John Ruddy, William Doherty, John Long, Hugh Foster, Samuel Bell, William Boyle, Samuel McKenny, William Mahon, John Hunter, William Barber, John Campbell, James Cooke, Samuel Johnston, James Baird, William Ward, James McCrory, Edward McCrory, Donal McFadden, Alex McIlwaine, William Elliott, Robert Ewing, John Craig, William McCormick, George Taylor, William McMichael, Robert McMichael.
Asia
Samuel Scott, Robert Scott, William Campbell, John Fowler, James McFeat.
Prudence
James Steel, James Thompson, William Thompson, David Cowan, James Lecky, Samuel Kyle.
Ontario
Samuel Quinn, Francis Kelly, Andrew Gregory, James McGuire, Peter Neilson, Daniel Doherty.
Four things seem to be clearer to me from Patrick’s insight and from compiling this list:
1. It probably but not certainly was the men off the John Stamp who ended up in Duffy’s Cut, exactly as the Watsons have said all along.
2. The age profile of those on the John Stamp was very unusual as it had too many unattached young men who had not completed puberty. This was no coincidence and some sinister forces were at play to rob their families of these young men.
3. The chances of the bones in Ardara being John Ruddy are 1:26 rather than the chances of it not being him being one in a million as the Watsons have claimed all along.
4. As a rider to the first point, if perchance we are missing something and a congenitally missing tooth is not a red herring, any cousins are most likely to be amongst the John Stamp tranche of boys.
Commentary
When Patrick says that these things need to be cleared up, some thought needs to be given to how exactly to go about doing that. It seems to me by doing nothing this leaves the way clear for the Watsons to keep on building their house of straw, especially now that they have been granted the official recognition of being the Institute that investigates at least six other sites in the US.
The scientific watchdog in the US might need to know especially if a) taxpayer money is likely to be appropriated b) people are submitting DNA material under false pretences c) some other worthier scientific project is losing out through diversion of funds d) to say nothing about the maintaining of standards of seeking out scientific truth.
It seems to me that the Watsons are way out of their depth and that they should have handed this project over to some other team. None of this takes away from the fact that they brought this story into the public domain and that does them enormous credit. It is what has happened since that bothers. However, the amount of hype that has been generated has not necessarily been a bad thing. It has raised the profile of the Duffy’s Cut tragedy and the story would otherwise have just ended up a footnote in some dry history textbook.
The other thing that becomes clear to me is that I should have no further contact with the Watsons. Patrick knows the truth, the Watsons know the truth, but still the Watsons play their silly games. I don’t want any further part of that. Are you listening, Bill?
Footnote: I have run all these John Stamp names through Ancestry.com and they are all recorded on an Immigration Passenger List and then nothing.
Further Footnote: We have enough angles and material to keep us busy for the next two years and to publish a book. All four of us should be part of that project and we can keep our powder dry until then if we so wish? That is not pie in the sky as almost five hundred copies of my book ‘The Sea is Wide’ have shifted already.
Mary Cornell
March 8, 2013 at 1:25 pm
As to what we can surmise, if we take all 26 unaccounted men from the John Stamp and put them at Duffy’s Cut, we are still short 30 men. Do we make the leap and say that another twenty or so also came from the John Stamp? That puts us back to our original hypothesis that all of the men did not come from the John Stamp. We know that Philip Duffy usually housed ten to twelve men so these men would already be in place at the cut. I do not see any way to identify them unless there is railroad documentation somewhere.
This last week the Irish History Foundation gave me 100 free lookups for their database and I have been using them to try and find J Ruddy in their Donegal records. So far no luck in the birth and baptismal records. The Ruddy name seems to make a surge after 1850, but before that there are very few Ruddys documented. Like Eileen, I found more Roddy surnames than Ruddy.
It may be helpful if we went back to Don’s spreadsheet and see if the 26 names are clustered in the same region where we believe John Ruddy lived.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:53 pm
I would also wish to find where the men from the Duffy’s boarding house in 1830 census ended up. Unfortunately we have no names. We can use google map on ancestry to tag the places.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:36 pm
Thank You Patrick for sharing your history and concerns with us. I think it was the Smithsonian article that said Liam came to PA to give the sample. I don’t think the Watson’s have received any funding for their research but maybe for additional projects they may. Patrick’s information breaks this story wide open. I feel a little disappointed that we are going to sit back and wait for the house of cards to fall. Can anyone put a challenge to Ireland’s coroner that the man buried in Ardara is not John Ruddy. As Mary said in an earlier post maybe someone else’s family is looking for their loved one. I hope Patrick you will continue to work with us.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 3:50 pm
Patrick might feel a bit compromised that he has already been put in a very invidious position by insisting on the truth as that may put him in disfavour with anyone in the Ruddy clan who has bought the Watson story? Given that it is his contribution so far that could ‘blow this thing wide open’ I am more inclined to let him decide what is the best way to proceed at this particular juncture.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:55 pm
I agree Don, I don’t want to upset the Ruddy family. I hope we can work along with them. Thank you again Patrick.
Patrick
March 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm
Within our family group there is varying opinions from “Don’t get involved…” to “well maybe it is possible that this is John Ruddy’s remains”. My opinion is and will remain that these remains cannot be deemed to be John Ruddy until proof is supplied and that this can only be done through DNA testing. The rest of the family know my position on this and do not seem to have any problem with me on this. There is no paper-trail to help us prove where John Ruddy came from in Donegal, if indeed he came from Donegal in the first place. It may just have been the last place he lived in before leaving for PA.
In spite of eveything, there is something on the Ships List that may be an indicator that John Ruddy is related to our family group but it is so slim I’M loathe to mention. But it may be better than anything the Watsons have came up with to this point so here goes.
In the Tithe Applotment 1829/1837 in the parish of Donagh(Carndonagh) there is a man called William Ruddy who I believe is related to me (but unsure as yet how) who shared a piece of land with a William Ewing and if you go to the Ships List there are John and Robert Ewing. one a labourer and the other a weaver. After William Ewing’s death his wife remained in the townland and she was a neighbour of my g-grandmothers brother (great-granduncle) until her death. This couple with other names on the list – Doherty, Long, McKenny(McKinney), McLaughlin, Diver, McIlheaney, Quigley, Farren and Campbell – were names that were borne by neighbours of the Ewings and the Ruddys and make me think that perhaps the recruiting of labour was done in Carndonagh perhaps.
All that however does not change my stance as to who’s remains were buried in Ardara.
Patrick
March 8, 2013 at 11:33 pm
As far as I can see on the cancelled Land Books when Margaret Ewing died (I must check that) the farm she lived on became the property of a family called McLucas and the surname Ruddy changed to Reddy. Later on it changed to Ruddy.
Re what happened to John Ruddy in PA there is a great quote in Charles McGlinchy’s book ‘Last of the Name’ (also used by the Inishowen Annual. “After the wars were over in 1815, lots of ones went off to America. It was all sailing boats at that time. One of the Grants of Clochfin went to America and it took him three months. On the way over he got so seasick that the crew were for throwing him overboard because he was about dead, but some Malin men interfered and woundn’t let them throw him overboard as long as there was life in him. He lasted out the voyage and reached Philadelphia. Instead of taking work he got a pack and soon made the price of a house, and before he died he had a street of houses.”
I think this shows that the Irish knew what to expect when they reached USA and were well prepared to take off as soon as they landed or shortly after that. I just wonder (and hope) if John and some others did likewise. I have been trying for some time to get some information re a John Ruddy, wife, sons and brothers living in Philadelphia mentioned on the 1880 census who was born about the time of the JS John Ruddy but no luck so far. A long shot I know but you never know.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 3:49 pm
Patrick: What does Liam and Sadie and your brothers think of all this. Are they as uncertain about the findings as you rightly are?
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 4:29 pm
I’m still unclear why Duffy would send to Ireland for fresh young 18 year olds than to use the thousands of young men who may have been more physically fit that were already in Pennsylvania. It reminds me of when young men in World Wars were recruited first. There is a lyric to an Irish song “In 1826, plenty of young men in their 20’s said goodbye.” I think they wanted to use them like pack mules in the mines.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 4:52 pm
Fair Point. For some reason, it is believed that Irish built the Union Pacific Railway, Chinese built the Central Pacific, they joined up in the middle, and Americans had very little to do with the building of either.
Mary Cornell
March 8, 2013 at 5:57 pm
I think the reason was that the pay was nearly non-existent and the conditions were horrendous. Those who had been here awhile may have already figured out what the game was about or maybe actually worked for the rr and refused to do so again. The men already here would have realized that there were better jobs elsewhere. The rrs would not have a labor force available as the ones here would refuse to work as near-slaves.
Maybe that is why Duffy kept his workers so close, to keep them away from the knowledge of a better life away from the rr.
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 7:01 pm
An Irish navvy earned $35 dollar a month building a railway in 1840 in the US. The same navvy earned the equivalent of $25 a month building a railway in England. That is to say 25% less and he was expected to shift in either place up to 20 tons of earth per day but almost certainly the terrain in the US was much more difficult and the conditions much more hazardous.
Eileen Breen
March 8, 2013 at 7:15 pm
Mary spoke about marking out the areas that those on the J.S. came from. We only have a few from all the ships for whom we have an exact townland name – Aiken family and Ruddy family. All the others are from counties. I think we need to work on pinpointing them to a townland, not just a county. Don had put up possible choices based on corrected names/ transcription errors from the manifests. This info needs to be put on the ancestry pages too.
We only know Duffy was from Tipperary but we don’t know why Donegal was chosen, although it seems ease of travel may have been a factor as the ships went from the Atlantic to the Foyle. On the Donegal website it said if you wanted to travel on a ship you lit a lamp on a hill near the Foyle River and signalled the ship that you were coming. Families said goodbye on the Bridge of Tears before they departed.
The counties we looked at were Donegal to the west, Derry to the East, Tyrone to the South and Leitrim was to the South-West. It just looks like they picked Derry because it was an easy and safe port to bring the ship in to, then they picked townlands North, South, East and West from there. Perhaps Duffy hired the ship and selected these areas because he knew he could fill the ship if he did a little recruiting. Maybe the roads to the Derry port were not that difficult. I saw that the train was not established in the North Donegal area area until 1888. So either walking or horse was their option.
The Watsons may not be too far off with the missing tooth theory, even if it’s not the rare missing molar. Maybe, as Patrick stated, in modern times the overcrowding of the teeth needs a certain treatment to make way for new teeth or, as Mary said, in U.S. it’s common practice to remove teeth to push back teeth into a straighter alignment for braces. Another possibility is that in the 1800s if maybe there was an injury to the tooth, or if it was missing in the first place or if there was an infection or a cavity, the common practice was to pull it. Perhaps John Ruddy couldn’t afford the treatment so the tooth was pulled. Early on the barber was the dentist so perhaps there wasn’t concern to save a tooth.
If we are unable to prove the tooth issue is there any other way to prove John Ruddy is who they say he is? Was he where they said he was, or ere there any letters or family discussions that remember John wanting to go to Pennsylvania? Did he let anyone know his intentions or where he was staying or did he just pick a ship that was going to America and take his chances that he would find housing and a job? Was he planning to send money home or help pay for other family to come?
Patrick said Liam came to New York. Are there other family members who came to NY during this time in theb1830s? Can we try to find this family? How is John related to the Liam Ruddy family?
Waxwing
March 8, 2013 at 8:28 pm
Have to disagree with you here, Eileen, and that is a pretty rare occurrence. Patrick’s information on the Ruddy narrow-jaw anomaly knocks the Watson tooth-theory completely out of court and points towards it being a complete falsehood. The difference is that a congenital anomaly will not have a cavity in the jawbone where a tooth should have been; an extraction due to whatever cause will still have the cavity in the jawbone.
The rest of the geographical points will be covered in the Excel database when I get round to it (that will be in the next few weeks). The sorts of associations that you refer to will be amenable to proximity measurements of some sort or other. This is where my knowledge of statistics will come into play and it should hopefully become clear.
Nonetheless, I believe your underlying thesis is correct – that Duffy (whether he was from Tipperary or somewhere else) targeted North-West Ulster or he had an agent do that on his behalf. I don’t think he could have done it on his own. I also hope to trawl through the local papers for 1832 and see what I can come up with. I am in England so much these days that will take a bit longer.
Overall, I think today has been a red-letter day, mainly because of Patrick’s input on this occasion, and it brings Vic’s azimuth into play.
Mary Cornell
March 8, 2013 at 12:20 pm
The Watsons seem to have been always ‘playing at it,’ as noted by Eileen’s comment that they never want to ‘pay the piper’. Any true scholarly endeavor would not be hindered by a lack of funds as the Duffy’s Cut project has been. I am in complete agreement that they are out of their depth; they lacked that investigative determination to get to the truth. I suppose it can be said that they lack the ‘fire in their belly’ that is necessary to complete the task. The lights of fame seem to have been the goal.
It is obvious now why it was important to them to have Patrick seen in a bad light; he knows the truth. As a team, we owe him a huge debt of gratitude for his insights. Thank you Patrick.
BTW I too have a narrow jaw and actually had four teeth pulled (two on top, two on bottom) at the age of 12 when I had braces put on to correct the crowding of my teeth. Might want to inform the Watsons of a possible Ruddy relative!
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:34 pm
On the Duffy’s Cut Facebook page some asked why they buried him in Ardara not Inishowen. Bill Watson said: We had hoped to bury him in Inishowen but the only unencumbered offer was to bury him in Ardara. Meaning the site was donated for free. I wonder if The Watson’s have a thing about money. Either do the right thing (bury him in Inishowen and do the DNA) and “pay the piper” (not sorry for the pun) or not do this incorrectly as they have.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:49 am
Pay the Piper. I love it!
Mary Cornell
March 7, 2013 at 2:39 pm
Remember, they are the pipers, bagpipes. Lol
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:47 am
I think they would have to extract material from the dental pulp, always supposing that there were any teeth left or that were testable. With a congenitally missing tooth there would be no socket present, hence they would know the tooth was never there.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:03 pm
They prefer to test the X chromosome so they can go back as many generations as they can. But if they are looking for the Y chromosome link they may also have to test the Y chromosome. Perhaps Ancestry could help with particulars. When I was interested in doing my DNA I wrote to them about the testing and they answered my questions.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:43 am
It’s a while since I looked at this but my understanding of DNA testing is that Y-DNA testing (the male side) can track more recent mutations within about ten generations or longer, whereas mitochondrial DNA (the female side) tracks further back than that again.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 9:55 pm
If Ancestry can find out through DNA testing if someone’s linked to Niall Of The Nine Hostages or Thomas Jefferson surly the Watson’s can pay under $300.00 to see if the Ruddy family is linked to “AKA John Ruddy.” If we are going to try to see if cousins came over w/ John, then we will need Patrick’s assistance with relatives’ last names. Also prior to burying a missing person in Ireland don’t they need a positive ID? Did the Coroner in Ireland need proof before putting the bones into the ground? Can we find out through Coroner Records in Ireland. Can Patrick request such a record?
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 9:58 pm
Patrick: Can we map out your family tree? We could use a private tree on Ancestry. I thought if we could find some names to search we could see if there others on the ship manifest that might be connected. Thanks
Patrick
March 7, 2013 at 12:18 pm
Eileen
Mapping out a family tree in the time frame of 1832 is a Big Ask. The best I could do is make a guess as trying to find information re family links at this point in time is difficult to say the least. Something worth noting is that when you look at the ships manifest family groups seem to be indicated by bracketing names together. If I applied modern information re names on the family tree I could well be related to a number of names on the manifest. To muddy the waters somewhat we have (unrelated) Ruddys on both sides of our family. My great grandmother on my mothers side was a Ruddy also but from a different parish. Leave this with me and I will see what I can come up with.
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 1:20 pm
Thank you Patrick for your time and effort. This seems to be getting interesting.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:48 pm
Excellent Quote! So true!;)
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:32 pm
I can’t believe Bill Watson wrote to you! That was amazing! Maybe we can ask him about the DNA in a round about way. Ask him about the the DNA information you found maybe this could open the door?
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 1:46 pm
‘Keep your friends close and your enemies closer’
Niccolo Macchiavelli
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 3:44 pm
Logically, the Smithsonian has no reason to lie about the DNA results. On the other hand, if the DNA results were not what the Watsons expected, they would be back to square one and would lose a lot of their credibility. Being that the Watsons were the ones who opened up their work to the public and the press, right to privacy is no longer valid. The Watsons have placed themselves on a slippery slope and don’t know how to get off.
Eileen Breen
March 7, 2013 at 1:42 am
The Watsons may not have the right to privacy but Liam Ruddy does. HIPPA laws and all. So maybe if Liam could write to the Watsons to ask what’s up? Then we might have a leg to stand on. Perhaps we could have Patrick look at the ship manifest for J.S. to see if any last names ring a bell with cousins they might have had.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 7:54 am
You have a good point there. It sounds distinctly dodgy, ethically speaking, to take biological material from a ‘consenting’ and living subject for a specific and agreed purpose and to withhold the results. Liam could have personal information held on him without his knowledge which for all I know could conceivably be used against him if being kept on some database or in a file. Habeas Corpus might apply? In any case, if they are not going to do the test the Smithsonian should destroy the material and erase Liam’s name from their database.
Mary Cornell
March 7, 2013 at 2:52 pm
There is a possibility the Liam has been given the results. He seems to be absent from view in this whole thing.
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 3:57 pm
I just realized something from Eileen’s post. We have never checked into the possibility that John Ruddy may have been traveling with cousins. If the dental anomaly is carried on the x chromosome, sisters would inherit the gene. Married sisters would have different surnames. Difficult task, but something to look into with the younger passengers on the JS. Young cousins may have traveled together.
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 4:15 pm
Another thought on the dental anomaly. If it is carried on the x chromosome,then its occurrence in present day Ruddys may have no correlation to Ruddys in the past. As you stated,the anomaly may be present through a male Ruddy marriage to a female with the gene. This would make identification impossible through the anomaly. Too many outside factors present. So we are back again to DNA being the only definitive answer.
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 8:03 pm
I need to double-check and triple-check before I could be more definitive but from what I have read so far the following appear to be true:
Solitary non-syndromal congenital hypodontia, the kind they found in the Duffy’s Cut, is more likely to be X-linked than the other kinds.
Whether X-linked or not, the chromosome would have to be recessive and it would give way to any more dominant gene. This accounts for the rarity of the physical expression of the gene in the form of in this case the missing tooth.
It the anomaly were peculiar to Ruddys it would not be X-linked and it would have to be incestuous or the effects would wear off or become more dispersed with each generation.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:23 pm
I tried to quickly find records in Donegal for Sadie, and James and Bernard (first cousins). This might be interesting to discover if not only John Ruddy but cousins were on the John Stamp. If Liam Ruddy gave DNA did he have a missing tooth or did Sadie? On Ancestry they ask for the male DNA and I think you learn more about the DNA from the male that is the oldest with a particular last name.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:13 pm
Hi Patrick: Thanks for the information. About two months ago I found an old article about Duffy’s Cut in the Smithsonian Magazine. I wrote to the editor of the magazine and asked about the DNA results and they said we had to ask the Duffy’s Cut project. It’s interesting if the Smithsonian volunteered to do the project for free we should have seen results. Mary saw a post on their Facebook page where someone asked what were the results of the DNA tests that Liam Ruddy volunteered for. It did not get a reply. A new book and a TV movie are soon to come out maybe we will get some answers. Do you know the Ruddy family perhaps we could ask them?
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 1:33 pm
Patrick is a brother of James and Bernard.
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 10:18 pm
Hi Patrick: Are Sadie and Liam 1st cousins?
Eileen Breen
March 5, 2013 at 2:23 pm
DNA samples of Liam Ruddy were taken by the Smithsonian. The same folks who did the film The Ghosts Of Duffy’s Cut. I wrote to the Smithsonian but they said we had to contact the Watsons. Perhaps the Watsons never paid the Smithsonian to do the DNA on the material they took. The DNA testing they do on Ancestry seems reasonable. I don’t understand why it wasn’t done.
Patrick
March 6, 2013 at 12:28 am
This reply was sent to someone I know who asked if there had been any progress re the DNA result. It was dated 16/11/12
Hello ****** –alas, we are at the mercy of the Smithsonian Institution, where it is being done
for us without charge. We are awaiting word.
Thanks!
Cordially,
Dr. William Watson, Immaculata University
http://duffyscut.immaculata.edu
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 8:31 am
Without charge, interesting! Whereas before, the official line was that it was too costly? Also there seems to be a case of smoke and mirrors going on around the missing William Ruddy (presumably a cousin) who is said to have gone walkabout in Australia?
On a slightly different tack, the issue of the missing tooth has been gnawing away at me (sorry about the pun)! The whole Watson case on John Ruddy is built on this dental anomaly rather than the missing DNA. It is true that a missing first premolar tooth is one of the rarer dental anomalies but I started to wonder about the effects of living in a closed community such as Donegal (especially Inishowen) and marrying between way-out cousins.
Recent research appears to show that the chromosomal glitch that is the cause of singular (one-tooth) congenital (born that way) nonsyndromal (nothing else wrong, such as cleft palate, stunted growth or missing nails) hypodontia (too few teeth) is highly likely to be linked to the X-chromosome. That means it could be running down the female line, not the male, although expressing itself in males. In turn, that means you don’t have to be a Ruddy to be missing a tooth, you could just be born to someone who married a female Ruddy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21091672
Click to access 072208_toothagenesis_reveiw_JDR2008.pdf
I don’t know enough about genetics to say much more than that at this point in time but I mean to find out more. What all that boils down to is that John Ruddy may not be buried in Ardara, it could be a cousin!
In this particular instance, could either of these boys on the John Stamp be a cousin of John Ruddy:
William Ward 17
Donal McFadden 18
There is another whole heap of 18 year old labourers from the John Stamp that I haven’t listed as their surnames are probably Protestant (though that doesn’t necessarily rule out) or they were from neighbouring counties (ditto). Neither have I mentioned a tranche of 18 year olds that came on the other three boats with passengers who could have ended up in Duffy’s Cut.
Waxwing
March 7, 2013 at 8:50 am
This link comes from Mary
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.northam.usa.states.pennsylvania.counties.chester/9049/mb.ashx
Unless Bill Watson has got himself tied up in knots, this is even curiouser. He talks about an upper missing front molar. There is no such thing as a front molar, but perhaps he means first molar as opposed to third molar. Molar teeth are at the back of the mouth and the rarest tooth that can be missing is the first premolar.
Eileen Breen
March 5, 2013 at 2:19 pm
So if Duffy was from Tipperary he didn’t speak Gaelic? So would recruiting in Ardara be difficult or not if 30% of the area spoke Gaelic. He may also have been illiterate if he only signed with his mark and not his name.
Eileen Breen
March 5, 2013 at 2:14 pm
We had a few people from Prehen. Maybe we would try to look up. On my Facebook page, there is a photo of the town.
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 3:04 pm
Earlier, both Eileen and I had found a few tidbits on Philip Duffy. He can be found in the 1830 census in a house with several male laborers. I do not remember the name of the town, but it was in the general vicinity of Malvern. He is also in the 1870 Census living in a wealthy suburb of Philadelphia. He is also buried in one of the Catholic cemeteries in Philadelphia. The actual location of the grave is not known, but is believed to be in a section that now has a building on top of it. I have been trying to locate where I had seen his birthplace as being Tipperary. I believe it was in one of the earliest articles on the dig. Will keep looking.
Hmmm …The Watsons blocking of Patrick on their sites is very interesting. Patrick may be pointing out exactly what the Watsons do not want investigated more closely. Yesterday, Eileen sent me some of the photos that are posted on the Duffys Cut, immaculata site and what caught my eye is the fact they blurred the image of the purported railroad letter. Why would they feel that was necessary? I suppose that if they blur and block any more info, their web site will be empty.
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 6:13 pm
Duffy surname research
,http://www.selectsurnames2.com/zselectsurnames2/duffy2.html
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 6:37 pm
More-
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/IRL-TIPPERARY/2004-07/1089624303
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:35 am
I don’t think it was intended to block the information, they put photos of the file in their book. A little hard to read but if you use a magnifying glass you can. The file is in the center of the book, no page number.
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 2:19 pm
On the John Stamp tree I tried to look up census records for Philip Duffy. I only found one and a few snippets on his son. It was strange he only appeared in an 1830 census with the ten Irish workers who were not listed by name. I would like to see if any of the woman on the John Stamp took over employees of the P&C RR. Thanks for the email. Now we know Ruddy may have been From Portnoo, Inishowen or near Quigley’s Point and we have 3 relative names James, Bernard and Sadie. Can Patrick give us any updates? Also the article said Slieve Tooey was the last place John would have seen before he left Ireland.
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 3:18 pm
Liam Ruddy is the one who gave DNA to the Smithsonian when he came to the US.
Mary Cornell
March 5, 2013 at 1:11 pm
Now that John Ruddy is buried, are there any DNA samples available?! Or have the Watsons made it so that any samples would only be available from them?
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 9:13 pm
I sent you and Mary the slide show from the funeral. My Guess photo #51 is Sadie Ruddy (Portnoo, Donegal), and her first cousins James Ruddy and Bernard Ruddy (Quigley’s Point). The article said John Ruddy’s hometown was Inishowen. Looking at the slideshow: In the very beginning a man in a turtleneck and khakis took the casket out of the hearse (maybe he’s from the Watson’s team?). After him were the men in black who I’m assuming were undertakers as one of them lowered the casket into the ground. The lady in blue and two men were next in line. Not sure if Liam was there. There also was a photo of an older gentleman in the center with two ladies, perhaps daughters, who looked like they were from the same family? Maybe, Liam Ruddy and his daughters. The others are photographed in larger groups like they were bystanders. I guess we will have to wait for the TV movie and book.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 11:35 am
I believe the guy in the turtle neck is Earl Schandelmeier, one-time student of Bill Watson and adjunct Professor at Immaculata. Not surprisingly, I heard a few of the people there speaking in Gaelic, even the younger ones in their twenties, which was quite pleasing to me.
Mary Cornell
March 5, 2013 at 1:34 pm
My thought was that the woman in blue was Sadie based only on her presence in several of the photos and she and two men were first in the procession. I don’t think Liam was there, but the duffer in the hat is still interesting.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 1:49 pm
I have the answer to that but it would be better coming from Patrick who has been in touch with me by email to give me the lowdown. Here is my reply to him:
“Sorry you couldn’t make it to Ardara. I was very much in two minds about it and the trip wasn’t really worth it, other than being able to look Bill Watson in the eye, and my wife got some nice new purchases in McElhinneys in Ballybofey on the way past!
I am glad you made contact as a kindred spirit. I sense I am persona non grata with them but no way is that going to put me off. Feel free to continue to add your tuppenceworth and you will categorically never be bumped off my website! Also, you will find in Mary Cornell and Eileen Breen two good new buddies”.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 1:51 pm
I don’t understand how the Smithsonian works. I would have thought they have a duty to inform and educate the public without strings attached?
Eileen Breen
March 6, 2013 at 1:43 am
My guess since the Duffy’s Cut project initiated and would be funding the DNA analysis they have their right to privacy of the results. The film they were making in Ardara is for TV. The first film was done by the Smithsonian. Maybe they mentioned the DNA in the film we didn’t get to see. I keep looking for it to come out on the Smithsonian website but so far it hasn’t happened. I’m envious you got to go shopping! My favorite pastime!
Mary Cornell
March 5, 2013 at 2:17 pm
Don, feel free to give Patrick my e- mail address if he is more comfortable not using a public forum for all of his insights.
I told you you would owe your wife big time. 🙂 Looking Bill Watson in the eye and making him squirm, to me, was worth the trip.
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 8:51 am
BTW I got an email from Bill Watson saying it was great meeting me (!) and giving me a whole spiel on his Donnelly ancestors. As usual, he avoided my suggestion that I put to him that, never mind the Ruddys, Donnellys shouldn’t have been too hard to find in Donegal. It is a comparatively rare name there, at least as rare as Ruddy.
Mary Cornell
March 6, 2013 at 3:00 pm
My suspicious mind is at work. Certain actions by Bill and Frank at certain times makes me wonder if they are following our comments on this page. Deflecting again? Bill may also want to keep his enemies close. I was always rather fond of Machiavelli.
Waxwing
March 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm
I would be surprised if they weren’t following it. If you Google my name alongside Duffy’s Cut half of the entries on the first page refer to me.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 9:05 am
I think there was a little bit of poetic license when Fr. Laverty said that Ardara/Portnoo would be the last place the emigrants saw when they left Ireland. That would more likely be the Fanad Peninsula or the Inishowen peninsula which includes Malin Head. Otherwise the ship would have had to turn a corner and hug the Donegal shoreline, instead of heading straight across to America.
Eileen Breen
March 2, 2013 at 11:00 pm
Prior to our hiatus, we talked about the Passenger Act that affected Irish immigrants and indentured servants. I saw an article on NBC News about the Cruise Vessel Safety And Security Act. The Carnival Ship Triumph had made the news on 15 Feb 2013 when it lost all four engines and passengers and had to endure several days on the ocean before they were towed to a New Orleans port. The passengers originally embarked in Texas.
The issue was that even though passengers embarked in the US the ship was registered in the Bahamas. The passengers had to read the fine print and signed an agreement to abide by their (Carnival Cruise Line) terms. Often passengers don’t realize ships are registered in foreign ports. By signing the passenger agreement, Carnival Triumph passengers gave up their rights to compensation. Those travelling on ships are not as protected as those who travel on planes. The passengers of the Triumph had no rights to receive compensation for the psychological effects when this event occurred. This was stated on their passenger agreement that they signed prior to their voyage.
When the engines on the ship failed the passengers and crew were stranded on the open ocean. As a result, they had no fresh-running water or fresh air, sewage was seeping all over the ship, there was lack of food and a prolonged period of time enduring these conditions before they were rescued. Sounds familiar? In comparison, planes offer stiff fines if passengers are left on the tarmac for more than 3 hours, if they don’t provide for safety measures, food and water etc. Knowledge is power. It pays to read the fine print.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 2:59 pm
Prior to our break we had a lot of questions to be answered. Looking back on the Fear Of Contagion article (Well written Don!) and the comments below that we still have a lot to do! Where does that leave us?
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 5:02 pm
Personally, I don’t think we need to bring anything more to the table. I think we have enough material, as summarised by me in the Archives page. I plan to focus on completing the Excel spreadsheet and to see what leads come from any patterns that emerge from that. I also plan at the correct juncture to make a renewed contact with the Donegal Democrat to get them to follow through on the Ardara angle which could be a launching pad for a fresh initiative. I think between us we could decide what criteria to apply to the Ancestry searches and include the findings of all our waxwings in the database. Then we might be getting somewhere. I punched John Doak DOB 1813 born in Ireland in for starters and I came up with someone who appeared as a teamster in the 1871 Canadian Census.
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 2:34 pm
There are several John Doaks but I couldn’t find Amelia. I wasn’t sure if the one in Canada was correct. I was thinking he may have worked in a mill as he was a weaver. But it could be possible he ended up in Canada and worked a a farmer/ weaver as he got older. I didn’t see any records that he travelled from Philadelphia to Canada. I saw in Philadelphia there was a Doak textile/rug store but I couldn’t find out anything on the company. Just a lot of possibilities. Sometimes going to Philadelphia and looking through the books in the library might be more useful than trying to do this on line.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 8:56 am
I saw that there was a whole clan of Doaks that left from Donegal for the US in the late 1700s so our John was probably the latest in a whole line of them so he will not be discoverable.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 3:04 pm
The Watson’s last letter was very informative. He seems to disagree with us that John Ruddy was English speaking and may have been more educated that the Watsons believe. Also he assumes that the Irish just want to fight with one another over their religion. They were trying to get away from their problems, not trying to keep the old issues from hindering them. They wanted a better life. Perhaps they were trying to get along with everyone despite sentiments at home and abroad.
Mary Cornell
March 3, 2013 at 4:51 pm
That last letter by Bill Watson had a distinct ‘attitude’ that bothered me. He was basically saying that these findings are true because I say they are. He simply spit back what was said in his first book. He also seemed to think that by saying everything would be discussed in the second book made the suppositions true. He sees our questioning of his conclusions as a personal attack on him rather than an attempt to get the facts straight.
The way I see it, he is the one who has called his own integrity into question. I also have a problem with Janet Monge’s scientific process. Except for the actual head wounds, everything else is conjecture. She herself said early on that it was impossible to tell if any of the remains had cholera as there was no tissue left. And as Eileen pointed out, you cannot judge stature by a skull and jawbone.
Bill’s actions yesterday clearly had the arrogance of someone who does not take kindly to anyone questioning his findings. I personally thought it to be completely disrespectful to ignore Don’s presence yesterday. I fear all he is done is ‘awaken the sleeping giant’. We all seem more determined than ever to find the truth and set the record straight.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 11:27 pm
I was looking at the John Stamp (immigrants came from Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh, Donegal, Leitrim and Monaghan); the Ontario (N.W. Ireland); the Prudence (Tyrone and Derry) and Asia (“Ireland”- no townlands listed). It looked like the North West of Ireland was recruited on three of the ships.
When I searched why the North West of Ireland was recruited in 1832, a story popped up about the DuPont Irish who owned a gunpowder factory in the eighteenth century. Multiple members of several generations were recruited from N.W. Ireland and it wasn’t only the family that sponsored other families to come over but shop owners, and other workers employed in the town where the DuPont’s lived as well as their employees. One employee sponsored thirty four members of the DuPont family.
I was thinking about our saga and maybe Duffy didn’t act alone. Maybe workers and owners of the railroad and merchants also recruited the Irish laborers, weavers and farmers. The book Black Powder And White Lace also suggested that woman also assisted in bringing the family over. When you put some of the towns on the Ancestry google map you can see how they travelled recruiting workers. So all three ships carried workers who were from the North West of Ireland and with but a few exceptions, being Leitrim, Laois and Antrim.
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 12:03 am
That is true and it is even more concentrated than that – 80% of the immigrants came from within a fifteen mile radius of Lifford in Donegal and Ardstraw in Tyrone. Hardly any came from Derry and hardly any came from Gaelic-speaking places. From that alone, it would appear that Duffy was not acting alone.
That is to say, unless Duffy came from round these parts himself? If Duffy came from Donegal, it is highly likely judging by his surname that he was a Gaelic speaker. Likewise, judging by his surname, he was five times as likely to have come from Donegal as Tyrone. If he did come from Donegal, he had little success recruiting from the part of Donegal that he most likely came from.
Mary Cornell
March 4, 2013 at 12:48 pm
Didn’t the Watsons state somewhere that Duffy was from Tipperary? Quite a ways from the recruiting area to say the least and, if he were from Tipperary, was he Gaelic-speaking?
Eileen Breen
March 4, 2013 at 2:22 pm
I discovered Prehen is in Derry right on the Foyle. It looks like it would have been their first stop to recruit people. If you google it it has an interesting history of the town.
Waxwing
March 5, 2013 at 9:02 am
Prehen is not actually a town as it is little more than a tiny suburb of Derry, no more than a few fields.
Eileen Breen
March 2, 2013 at 1:37 pm
It’s probably best to not go to the service. I do think the Watsons have the best intentions. If the book was written more objectively I think the Watsons would have got farther with me. I think Frank Watson likes a good story with folklore and all. The only time I saw negative postings on their site was recently. They brought this on themselves with all the publicity. Perhaps if they had made the service private and invited just the Ruddys then it would be less sensational.
I do think the Watsons are respected by the students and the Pennsylvania community. I wish they would reach out to Patrick Ruddy to answer his questions. I don’t think researchers usually invite the press at every finding and publicize it with articles and a film. I watched a Special on The Titanic and it was told in a objective manner by the researchers who showed compassion for those who were lost as well as the Belfast workers and families of those who built the ship. The Watsons can save the ‘I caught the big fish story’ for the classroom but when discussing their findings leave out the tall tales.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 6:11 pm
Too late.
I went to Ardara and I dragged my wife along with me. We had a cup of tea in the parochial hall where the Watsons played the bagpipes. I did not go to the service as it didn’t sit right with me and I arrived just as the interment had been completed. I went up to Bill Watson and I introduced myself but by the look on his face I don’t think he was particularly pleased to see me. In fact he seemed lost for words (unusually for him). In Northern Ireland they have a word for it – gobsmacked. I tried to get a word with Frank but he was too busy speaking to a journalist and I slipped away. I intend to have no further contact with the Watsons unless they have contact with me first. I will post some of my photos later on the website. I am not discouraged by Bill’s lack of interest or lack of welcoming of my attendance and, having looked him in the eye, I am more determined than ever to put some of the falsehoods and fabrications straight.
Mary Cornell
March 2, 2013 at 7:01 pm
You owe your wife big time for this one.
Whether it was a good idea or not, I think it was important to meet the Watsons in person. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall after you left. It seems to have been awkward for Bill, like a child caught in a lie who hopes nothing is said about it. A gentlemanly or scholarly reaction would have been to engage in a conversation, no matter how short, about the differing views.
Your opinion of the man after having met him?
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 7:14 pm
Having my wife there was a good idea as I would otherwise have been like a lost soul, sitting in the hall as a complete stranger and wondering what I was doing there. She thought it odd, to say the least, that Bill did not seek me out in that small hall which only had a smattering of people in it and put some kind of a face on things. For all he knew I could have gone to some considerable trouble to get there – a five hour car journey I suppose was trouble enough. Also, I was probably one of the few people there who had some informed and genuine interest in the occasion. Enough said!
Eileen Breen
March 2, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Thank you, Don, and to your wife for taking the time and compassion to set the record straight. I tried to check out Dee Campbell from Facebook who claims to be a relative of William Diver b. 1811 (laborer), Elizabeth Diver (spinster) and her son, John Diver age 1.
I put the name Diver as an alternate under their names. The John Stamp manifest has the name listed as Diven from Donegal. Tithe books have five William Divers in 1828 from townlands of: Aughalalty, Mevagh, Donegal; Dallylosky, Donagh, Donegal; Dually, Clonmany, Donegal; Dromore, Donaghmore, Donegal; Letter, Clonmany, Donegal. Spelling for towns from Ancestry. Letter, could it be Letterkenny?
There are Campbells on the John Stamp but they are from Tyrone. I don’t know if we want to ask Dee how she’s related to the Divers? I couldn’t find anything definitive on Ancestry or in Ancestry family trees for this name.
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 8:02 am
Dee seems quite a character and her Facebook is a hoot. She is into cosmetology and she has been married six or seven times, she says she has lost count!
Patrick
March 2, 2013 at 7:39 pm
Hi Waxwing
Now that the remains of whoever this person was have been laid to rest, I hope that you will continue to try to expose some of the falsehoods and fabrications you believe are attached to this project. The Watsons continual claim that these are the remains of John Ruddy, or anyone else for that matter, are in my eyes disgraceful to say the least. Clearly they cannot prove this and if you step back and look at this it brings the rest of their “work” into question. If they have been found to tell one lie how many more have they told. As far as I am concerned these remains are those of John Ruddy simply because the Watsons want them to be.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 8:05 pm
Hi Patrick
Thank you for this input as Eileen, Mary and myself from the Waxwing Project crew have all been asking about you recently. You have been very much the lone soldier for so long and you are very welcome to jump on board.
I have taken some photos from the Ardara carnival and they head up the new Duffys Cut page on this website.
All the best
Don
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 10:41 pm
According to the article, one body buried separately was that of John Ruddy. The rail road records show only one man was 18 years old. One body found was that of a man who was 18 yrs of age. The other bodies of men in their 20’s couldn’t be identified because of “too many possibilities.” I think their research has too many possibilities!
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 11:21 pm
The Duffy’s Cut project on Facebook has more comments recently. I emailed Mary that I saw two comments, one from Margaret McLaughlin that Inishowen is far from Ardara and a comment by Patrick Ruddy. Someone said that they saw Patrick Ruddy’s comment and made a nasty remark about it – that he should say he’s sorry for insulting the Watsons (which he didn’t)! He just said he didn’t think the remains they found could be John Ruddy’s with so little evidence – that it was a lie! The other person said he should put up his evidence or take down the comment. I had seen his comment this AM but now it’s nowhere to be found. Perhaps Patrick took it down, which is too bad. Can we contact him to let him know we are still trying to find out what happened?
Mary Cornell
March 2, 2013 at 1:00 am
I don’t think Patrick took it down. When I was reading the comments I noticed a question about the DNA tests and why was it taking do long. That question went unanswered while questions that appeared later were answered. Frank seems to be very good at deflecting by using flattery to not answer a question. I have to disagree about there not being an agenda. Or more to the point, the Watsons look like they are trying to hide the fact they just don’t know and get their backs up when someone appears to be criticizing.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 7:51 am
I put together some time ago a short feature article, ‘Eagla na Galru’ (The Fear of Contagion), which I sent to the Donegal Democrat and the Donegal News, the same papers that are giving this circus in Ardara so much column space. I never received an acknowledgment, let alone a reply, so clearly anything that could be seen to possibly spoil a good story does not go down well.
The article can be seen at the top of the Food for Thought page under DraftEagla if clicked upon. I sent a copy to the Watsons as well and Bill came back with a sharp retort, accusing me of having spoken to the forensic dentist, Matt Patterson, who fell out with them. This dentist was allegedly going about pouring cold water on the more sensationalist parts of the story. He sounds a good person to link up with?
I very well may not make it to Ardara today. My wife is thoroughly disapproving of the idea as she thinks the whole caper is a sham and that it is disrespectful to the Ruddys and the other unidentified deceased.
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 8:25 am
UPenn Article on Duffys Cut
I came across this feature article from UPenn which covers the ground (sorry about the pun) in a balanced and considered way:
http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/1110/feature1_6.html
It portrays William Watson as a kind of Indiana Jones character who is way out of his depth and who is like a bull in a china shop. Watson is seen as someone who stumbles across the truth because of his blind enthusiasm, and despite his undoubted flaws and lack of critical faculty. The article also describes that certain members of Watson’s team, notably Earl Schandelmeier, have tried to rein Watson in without success but they stick with him because he is the driving force behind the Duffys Cut project. His steamroller approach, although unscientific, can be quite contagious.
I think I’m starting to like this guy!
Mary Cornell
March 2, 2013 at 8:36 am
Of course it is a sham, but shouldn’t there be at least one person there who is there to honestly honor the memory of those lads who crossed the ocean and never returned? The Ruddy family must certainly feel used by the circus this seems to have become and their absence is understandable. I am not sure if I would go if the opportunity was mine. Your wife is right, but….
The question I would ask the forensic dentist would be – how prevalent was the dental anomaly in Northern Ireland, not just in the Ruddy family.
Eileen Breen
March 3, 2013 at 1:28 pm
Every time they get asked a question about DNA the article either says they’re still waiting for results, haven’t got the results or need the funds to do it. One of the first articles done by Smithsonian Magazine which also produced the movie that’s on the Smithsonian HD Channel this month said the Smithsonian did the DNA. I wrote to the Smithsonian who said we would have to write to the Watsons for the results. I think they have the results but they’re inconclusive but they went ahead with the service, 1 year memorial in PA on Mar 9, 2013 and the film crew from the Smithsonian that was at the funeral service yesterday. I don’t think they will make the results known or they know they will be challenged.
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 6:00 pm
Intriguing! The Smithsonian are not disclaiming all knowledge so must have more than a passing acquaintance of the sample. They are being very coy about sharing information, which is in marked contrast to the Watsons whose line is that the test was too costly to carry out. Who and what to believe?
Patrick
March 3, 2013 at 5:48 pm
My comments were removed from the Duffy’s Cut Facebook page by their team while they left their own. But they in turn were removed after I e-mailed them with a long reply, pointing out the folly of what they posted. I pointed out that there was more than one labourer on the John Stamp age about 18 years old. There were in fact sixteen labourers in the age group of 11 years old to 18 years old and some others aged 19 who may well could be brought into the equation.
The Facebook page in the first instance denied this, then tried to deflect from this by pointing out how many labourers there were on the John Stamp but they were still not willing to point out I was in fact correct. As things stand at the moment they have blocked me from making further comment on the page. Looks like they do not want to be taken to task any more. I wonder why?
It is also worth noting that as I look at it, it seems that because they were contacted by members of the Ruddy family that means that these remains must be John Ruddy. Where is the science in that? They have made a quantum leap from a name on a ship’s list to remains in a grave. I also think that the DNA results will never be known as it may cause problems for the Watsons at a later date.
Waxwing
March 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm
Thanks for that input, Patrick, which adds grist to the mill. Well spotted also about the number of 18 year olds on the John Stamp. It may be of interest for you to know that Bill Watson warned me against being taken in by Dr Matt Patterson, their erstwhile forensic dentist. It was Dr Patterson who flagged up the one solid piece of evidence tnat the Watsons have and that they play upon, namely the anomalous missing upper premolar. Apparently Dr Patterson has fallen out with the Watsons over this and refused to hold the line on the official Watson version. As I understand it, it is the combination of unsealed cranial fissures (indicating an 18 year old) and missing premolar that has convinced the Watsons the remains have to be those of John Ruddy, not just the age alone. Not an unreasonable stance to take but not watertight either, hence the need for the DNA.
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 7:48 am
Mary has forwarded the article from the Donegal News which has a few interesting additional snippets:
http://donegalnews.com/2013/03/donegal-man-killed-building-america-finally-get-proper-burial/
The article reports that three Ruddys were in attendance, Sadie (from Portnoo, which is just round the corner from Portnoo) and James and Bernard from Quigley’s Point in Inishowen. None of them gave quotes to the paper, all of them had the same dental anomaly, and their attendance might imply they gave their blessing to the proceedings.
It begs the question why they agreed to have John Ruddy buried in a stranger’s grave, rather than find space for him in a family plot, but perhaps they will speak on the documentary. The officiating priest remarked,” In a strange way it’s appropriate that his [Duffy’s] remains are laid to rest in his native country”, but he likewise did not comment on the appropriateness of a strange grave to serve that end. At least he got the ‘strange way’ part of it all right.
The article also reports that Bill Watson’s department is to house an Institute that will explore at least six other mass graves in PA and neighbouring states. This whole thing is certainly gathering a lot of momentum, where will it all end?
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 9:01 am
BTW
Anyone thought of trying to find any details on Philip Duffy himself? There must be some trace of him in the form of an obituary at least? If he can’t be traced, what hope of finding any of the railroad workers? He’s not even listed in the PA censuses as far as I can see.
Waxwing
March 4, 2013 at 9:26 am
Matthew 8:22: ‘And Jesus said, let the dead bury their dead’.
Click to access Workers%20Memorial%20Day%20Report%202009.pdf
Waxwing
March 2, 2013 at 12:02 am
My gut tells me that much of the way the findings are being presented is counterfactual, hyperbolic and a house of cards. I think the only way to counter this is to come back with incontrovertible material that has a solid evidence base and that is not simply speculative. Whenever I nicely challenge the Watsons with a contrary or questioning proposition, all I get from them is ‘hmm, we will feed this back to The Team’. This has happened on a few occasions now but The Team never comes back with a reply, considered or otherwise.
I don’t think posts on Facebook is the answer as that just leaves it open to nutters to fire off angry and empty headed ripostes. Patrick Ruddy was once a fan of the Watsons but he appears now to be totally disillusioned with them. I think also it was very mean of the Watsons to take a sample for DNA testing but never to carry out the test, on the basis of cost they say, but they can somehow find the price of three airtickets this weekend. Also they claim to have tried to make fresh contact with those Ruddy relatives again but without success. It remains to be seen whether any Ruddys will turn up at the interment?
Waxwing
March 1, 2013 at 8:58 am
The Latest on Duffys Cut
In advance of the reinterment on Saturday coming of John Ruddys bones in Ardara in Donegal, the Donegal Democrat has a piece which offers up the current thinking of the Watson Team on the ‘mystery’:
http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/a-tragic-180-year-old-mystery-1-4789843
They seem to have come away from the position that there was mass slaughter and are more inclined to think that all but seven died from cholera rather than that they were murdered. They are categorical that the seven were murdered but this is still a toned down version of some earlier versions of the story.
As is clear from the Donegal Democrat piece, some probable mistruths or dissimulations are still being fed to the press:
‘Twenty one of the group [of 57] were from Donegal, the rest were from Derry and Tyrone’
‘Seven people fled but were forced to return’.
‘The seven bodies were buried by people who did not know they were burying murder victims’.
‘[They were despatched] because they were Irish Catholics. End of Story’.
There is no agenda or motivation at play in these misrepresentations from the Watsons, it is more a case of loss of objectivity through so close an involvement with the project. To use a pun, it is more a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees and a more objective account of the gaps of knowledge of the Duffy’s Cut saga can be found in the Archives section of this website.
Waxwing
March 1, 2013 at 12:34 pm
Dealing with the first proposition that 21 were from Donegal:
John Stamp
George Doherty
John Ruddy
William Patchill*
John Hunter*
James Doherty
William Hasting*
William Diven
William Ward
John Creighton*
Donal McFadden
Alex McIlwaine*
John Long
Daniel McCahill
Brian McGourley
William Elliott*
David Patchill*
John Ewing*
Robert Skelton*
Thomas Skelton*
Raymond McElhinney
George Quigley
There were enough young male labourers on the John Stamp to make up the number of 21, exactly as the Watsons say. However, they do not explain their insistence that the work squad came off that particular ship rather than the other ships that arrived from Derry within the same time-frame – the Asia, Prudence or Ontario. Also, what is clear is that about half of the crew (asterisked) were not Gaelic-speaking Irishmen at all, despite the Watsons’ insistence.
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 1:58 pm
I’m confused by this “list of 21 from Donegal”: The book ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’ p. 68-9 lists those from Donegal asGeorge Doherty,age 28; John Ruddy, age 18; William Putetill, age 20; Daniel McCahill,age25; Bernie McGarty, age 2o; David Patchetill, age 20; Robert Skelton, age 20; Bernard McIllheaney, age 23; George Quigly, age 22. This totals 10. From the book ‘The John Stamp’ we have “21 of the laborers were in their twenties.” 15 of the laborers were in their teens. From Tyrone were James Deveney, Robert McAnamy and Samuel Forbes; from Derry were John McGlone, age 25 and John McClannon, age 24.
Waxwing
March 1, 2013 at 5:28 pm
An insight into the Ruddy Ardara Interment March 2nd 2013
From Daily News, Delaware County PA
‘Researchers are going ahead with Ruddy’s burial this weekend because of a looming deadline for a documentary film crew that has been following the Duffy’s Cut project. Ruddy’s relatives, who could not be reached for comment, are expected to attend, as are other community members’
‘Ruddy’s jaw also had a genetic dental abnormality — a missing molar. It’s a trait that still runs in his family, according to Watson, who said modern-day Ruddys in Ireland contacted him after reading about the discovery. One Ruddy donated a DNA sample to confirm the identification in 2010, but researchers have not had the time nor the money to complete the analysis yet. However, it’s unlikely another body with that bone size and “super-rare” tooth anomaly would be found at the site, said University of Pennsylvania anthropologist Janet Monge, who works with the all-volunteer team’.
http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/02/28/life/doc512f8594103d5516374364.txt?viewmode=fullstory
Eileen Breen
March 1, 2013 at 10:30 pm
If the box of bones they are showing in the latest articles are of John Ruddy this is amazing. How do they know he is of small stature when they don’t have the whole skeleton? They have less than a shoebox full. It looks like a partial skull and jawbone. Also they never ran the DNA after all this time! They made over $50,000 on the book. Where did the money go? If John Ruddy wanted to go to Philadelphia willingly, how do they know if he would have wanted to go home to Ireland. He’s not even in the right town. As someone said Inishowen is a good distance from Ardara. On their facebook page: Imaculata University/ Duffy’s Cut is where I saw Patrick Ruddy’s statement saying he thinks this is a lie, although he was trying to say it a little nicer. Can’t wait to see what tomorrow brings!
Eileen Breen
January 16, 2013 at 1:46 pm
Thank’s for the link to The Belfast Newsletter. I briefly looked at this site when we were talking about Cholera in Ireland. I found a few articles on Cholera. I liked the site. I’ll have to check it out to see what ships sailed out of there and if they made it to their destination. I found a few articles on ships sailing out of the Derry Ports and what happened to them.I think we have enough evidence to write about the Passenger act and the American passenger act, I was thinking the protection and carriages act protect all except the Africa and lowest income levels.
Eileen Breen
January 15, 2013 at 3:28 pm
FFT: I found info on cost of service industry in Ireland, England and Philadelphia.
A. Apprenticeships (education in a trade) in England and Ireland: a precursor to indentured service.
B. Passenger Acts in England and US. This could outline an article for us. (The need to protect passengers).
C. 600 children kidnapped from Abererdeen and a story of one child who returned to sue his captors.
D. The Year Of Coffin Ships that sailed to Montreal and Quebec in Canada. On Ancestry I found a registry for RC and Anglican parishes that adopted the children.
E. Several Ships from Derry port where the passengers arrived ill or died. I found ships manifests on Ancestry. Also the Derry Port and the Linen industry and how linen was used in the slave trade in southern US.
F. Cost of Slavery and indentured service in US
G. Service industry in Philadelphia after 1829
H. Current issues and costs of slavery in US and around the world. 27 million in human trafficking, exploitative labor.
I’ll put up some stats on the Ancestry:Ireland timeline. I’ll look at Ancestry to see if there are ships manifests for slaves. I think I saw there were some. I’ll save the information for after we come back but I just wanted to see if I was on the right track or not.
Waxwing
January 15, 2013 at 11:09 pm
Belfast Newsletter
I went for the first time to the Tyrone Local History Society group which meets in Omagh. It is quite a small group but the folks are old hands, very welcoming and friendly. I will continue to attend their monthly meeting but in the meantime I picked up a few snippets.
You probably knew already but you can read the Belfast Newsletter on-line on Ancestry. So it seems it was right under my nose all along but I begrudge the extra cost entailed as the Ancestry system has me down as an American so my subscription only covers the US. All the local libraries let you view Ancestry free of charge so I will just arrange my weekly schedule to suit.
Meanwhile, here is the link
http://search.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=2193
Eileen Breen
January 10, 2013 at 3:04 pm
Clonmany, Donegal Tithe: 1827: John Ruddy p. 9. Widow Ruddy p 18. 2 Roddy’s and a widow p 38. Edward Ruddy p 48: Ballinaroe. William, Nogher and Bryan Ruddy p 53 in Boherna. p 54: Owen, edward, Neal, Edward, Michael Ruddy. Also lot’s of Duffy’s, Doherty: majority of the landowners, Gonnigle, Kelly, Devlin, Cahill, 1 Barr.
Mary Cornell
January 6, 2013 at 5:07 am
Quick question- We have the name Diven as one of our waxwings. The last couple of weeks of going back over our sources, I keep coming across the name Diver in County Donegal. Is there a possibility that this is the name of our waxwing?
Don MacFarlane
January 6, 2013 at 9:17 am
According to Griffiths Valuation, there is only one instance of the name Diven in Ireland and that belonged to a single lady in Maghera in County Derry. Diver on the other hand was a reasonably common name, mainly to be found in Donegal, around Kilmacrenan, Tullyfern or Killygarvan. These are adjoining parishes on the outskirts of Letterkenny. From my point of view, Diver works but Diven doesn’t.
Mary Cornell
January 4, 2013 at 8:26 pm
Don, you make me laugh. It seems that you are chomping at the bit for a chapter or at least the glimpse of one. I picture you sitting at your desk with your editing fingers at the ready poised above the keyboard, your sweatband on your head and a water bottle close by, waiting for the whistle to blow. 😀
Run-on sentences not withstanding, never fear, a chapter is being crafted. With this particular writing, my modus is to write a section at a time in no particular order or more precisely, in the order that I have the best feeling for the information. Several of the sections have been rewritten several times. You and Eileen refused to stop finding new info.
Because of the amount of information we have, it is difficult to know what to exclude. I am also trying to remember where the information was found for citing purposes. I think a month away will allow our typing fingers to rest, but you do realize that even though we are not posting, all of us will probably be still looking. There will surely be an e-mail here and there.
Londonderry
January 4, 2013 at 4:04 pm
I think he meant Wilmington Delaware, down river from Philly. 🙂
Eileen Breen
January 4, 2013 at 2:14 pm
I don’t see the names Houston or McGourley on the memorial. Bernie McGarty was listed on the memorial. I believe we changed his name and the change is on ancestry. List for the memorial is on page 69 in the book. When do you want to take a break? We can work on summerizing the info and start back in Feb?
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 3:11 pm
Starting back in February sounds good to me. I may be heading off to England on business for a few weeks anyhow so mid-February sounds about right to me. Maybe Mary will have been able to bash out a first draft of her chapter as well by then.
My sense of it all is that we have done a serious amount of headbanging over this project for what is almost six months now and that we deserve a rest! We have come at it from a wide variety of angles, so we have covered the ground very well. Often times (as you say in the US) we have come up with more questions than answers but that is exactly how it should be. If this were a piece of research, which it is suspiciously like at times, this would be the time to come up with a list of hypotheses to be tested so as to sharpen the thinking. In my mind’s eye, we are not quite but almost half-way there with the project but it is definitely time for a breather. Over the next few weeks I will draft something for you all to look over.
Don MacFarlane
January 10, 2013 at 9:37 am
While taking some time out to clear my head and readjust my azimuth (Vic’s metaphor which I rather like) I came across this quote in the Irish Times from Bill Watson. He reported to them that John Ruddy never grew an upper right first molar, a rare genetic defect, and that when the find was reported in Ireland, two dozen members of the Ruddy family contacted Watson. One of them, William Ruddy, travelled to Pennsylvania to give a DNA sample.
“The body we excavated had a one in a million anomaly,” says Watson. “There are not a million Ruddys and there are not a million people in Donegal, and here’s a Ruddy and he has it and two of his aunts have it and they also have a story in the family of a guy coming over to the US in the 1830s, working on the railroad and vanishing. What are the odds of that? How could it not be him?”
I am not a mathematician but, just for the sake of the math alone, this dental anomaly occurs in one in three thousand people. Neither am I a philosopher but I think this kind of logical gymnastics or sleight of hand (which usually ends with the performer falling flat on his face) is called tautological.
In the meantime, I have found a PhD thesis by Dr Pekka Niemenin on the molecular genetics of hypodontia whch I will scan through. The limited amount of reading I had done before now has the PAX9 gene mutation as the cause of asymptomatic singular hypodontia and this has also been connected to a predisposition to lung cancer. Once I have read the thesis I might have found something that can pin this possible red herring down better.
Don MacFarlane
January 10, 2013 at 9:48 am
http://irishphiladelphia.com/2012/11/the-ghosts-of-duffys-cut-brought-to-life/
‘Maybe, by then John Ruddy will be in his final resting place in Donegal. If it turns out that the bones don’t belong to Ruddy, he’ll still rest in peace in the land where he was born. Irish Center President Vincent Gallagher has donated a gravesite in his family plot in Ardara, County Donegal’.
“He’ll be right next to my grandparents,” said Gallagher.
Don MacFarlane
January 10, 2013 at 8:47 pm
Research has shown that the prevalence of a missing adult maxillary first molar tooth is of the order of 20 in every 50,000 people. This converts to roughly 40 people with that anomaly in the present-day adult population of Donegal. One can reasonably presume if those people came forward they would not all be Ruddys. As the population of Ireland fell by a third between 1832 and today a reasonable projection would be that 60 people in Donegal at the time of Duffy’s Cut had that anomaly. Therefore the chance of the Duffy Cut body being John Ruddy could be as much as 1 in 30 of the male population, not that the chance of it not being Ruddy is 1 in a million as the Watsons portray.
Don MacFarlane
January 11, 2013 at 9:33 am
Thinking it through again, I am more convinced by William Watson’s logic of the coincidence of a) being a young immature male b) on board one of those four ships c) with that particular dental anomaly and d) with a modern-day counterpart relative. On other occasions Watson has got himself tied up in knots with manufactured odds of one-in-a million for the dental anomaly alone but by doing that he has just caused confusion. If he had stuck with his initial argument I think it has a much sounder basis and it is very nearly but still not quite water-tight as there are at least 25 young males on the John Stamp alone that fit that profile except that noone else has come forward.
On balance, I am probably prepared to give it to Watson – that has to be John Ruddy? But I have no idea how it would stack up in a modern court of law. Even with the best expert on probability theory, would that coincidence be enough to send an alleged perpetrator to the electric chair? Either way, I wish Watson would hurry up and have the ‘Ruddy’ bones repatriated but not in Messr Gallagher’s family grave in Ardara. It seems to me that Mr Gallagher, who is in no way connected to the Ruddys, is cashing in on the reflected publicity – when does it ever stop? If the Ruddys are claiming the bones why don’t they take responsibility to have them buried. It sounds a bit like, ‘Hold on, I am missing a tooth too, can I have a freebie trip to the US?”.
It’s too bad about the other sets of bones, however, which now have little or no chance of being repatriated? The lot of them could have been sent to Ireland as a job lot to be buried in Derry City which was their point of departure. That would have been even more poignant? As it is, do the souls belonging to the bones think they are any better off being buried in West Chester where they were allegedly murdered?
Mary Cornell
January 11, 2013 at 5:54 pm
I do not disagree with Professor Watson that the remains are, in all probability, the remains of John Ruddy. What I question is how he arrived at that conclusion. When the dental anomaly was found and the requests came from Ruddys in Northern Ireland, the only thing that was required for positive identification was DNA testing. I would also have given credence to the family story of a relative who came to America in 1832, never to be heard from again. Once again, DNA to prove or discount. Was there effort made to see if the dental anomaly was also a possibility in any of the other workers on the passenger list in order to rule out the others? Saying that it is one-in-a-million and proving it are two different things.
Mary Cornell
January 11, 2013 at 4:58 am
http://malvern.patch.com/articles/more-bones-turn-up-as-researchers-dig-at-duffys-cut
More proof of murder?! There were 141 nails in the coffin, not the usual 50 nails. With each article, the Watson’ s seem to have different ‘ proof’ of murder. At the start of the search, the men died from cholera, then it became murder and then progressed to every find pointing to murder. Chronologically speaking,with each article on the excavations, the plot becomes more sinister. It does not seem to be evidence-based , but based more on imagination than anything else.
As to the nails, more logically, they were afraid of getting cholera.
londonderry
January 4, 2013 at 10:11 am
This is great Mary! This is how I feel myself.
I am continuously amazed why more people don’t feel this way. Our forefathers and mothers were truly remarkable people. Sometimes I feel that we could never live up to their grit, determination and commitment.
My grandfather was a teacher and when I compare the subjects they took against the subjects our kids take today, there is no comparison…..and no one made straight As.
Thanks!!! Happy New Year to all!!!
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 12:36 pm
From ‘It’s Not About the Bike’ by Lance Armstrong.
‘Definition of being human: a characteristic of people as opposed to God or animals or machines is that they are susceptible to weakness and thereby show qualities of being a man [or woman]. Athletes cultivate an aura of invincibility but they can be fearful, weak, defenseless, vulnerable or fallible [like everyone else]’.
Comment
Lance Armstrong is a hero of mine till someone tells me different.
Waxwing
January 13, 2013 at 4:10 pm
Yes, I spotted that but I don’t think we get Oprah anymore. I have just finished Lance Armstrong’s book, ‘It’s Not About the Bike’ from ten years ago, before any of these doping allegations came to life. The bottom line for me is that if there is any truth to the allegations, Armstrong must have been seriously wrong-headed and fixated on winning, at the expense of all else including threat to his life, and was at a point just short of being mentally ill. Yes, he was given EPO (erythropoietin) as part of his treatment for a life-threatening cancer but it is altogether a different matter for him to take the drug after his cancer treatment was finished. He was seriously scared of his cancer returning and EPO is known to cause cancer cells to accelerate their growth in anyone who is not on anti-cancer treatment. For me it doesn’t add up.
BTW If I have been somewhat AWOL it is partly because an impacted wisdom tooth has pulled me up short. I have also just had an invitation to present in Nice, France, at the EPA (European Psychiatric Association) Conference in April on my favourite work-related topic at present, ‘Self-Identity and Holistic Recovery from Critical Cardiac Events’. I have to get a jazzed-up Powerpoint prepared so I will be flitting in and out.
Mary Cornell
January 4, 2013 at 8:08 am
Songs, Stories, We are Called!
In each family there is one who seems called to find the ancestors. To put flesh on their bones and make them live again, to tell the family story and to feel that somehow they know and approve.
Doing genealogy is not a cold gathering of facts, but instead breathing life into all who have gone before.
We are the storytellers of the tribe. All tribes have one. We have been called as it were, by our genes.
Those who have gone before cry out to us; “Tell our Story!”
So, we do. In finding them, we somehow find ourselves.
How many graves have I stood before now and wept? I have lost count.
How many times have I told the ancestors; “You have a wonderful family. You would be proud of us”?
How many times have I walked up to a grave and felt, somehow, there was love there for me? I cannot say.
It goes beyond just documenting facts.
It goes to who I am, and why do I do the things I do.
It goes to seeing a cemetery about to be lost forever to weeds and indifference and saying; “I can’t let this happen”.
The bones here, are bones of my bones and flesh of my flesh.
It goes to doing something about it.
It goes to pride in what our ancestors were able to accomplish, how they contributed to what we are today.
It goes to respecting their hardships and losses, joy and grief, their never giving in, or giving up,
their resoluteness to go on and build a life for their family.
It goes to deep pride that the fathers fought and some died to make and keep us a nation.
It goes to a deep and immense understanding that they were doing it for us.
It is of equal pride and love that our mothers struggled to give us birth.
Without them, we could not exist and so, we love each one, as far back as we can reach,
that we might be born who we are, that we might remember them.
So we do, with love and caring and scribing each fact of their existence,
because we are they and they are the sum of who we are.
So, as a scribe called, I tell the story of my family.
It is up to that one called in the next generation, to answer the call,
and take my place in the long line of family storytellers.
— Tom Dunn
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 9:51 am
Carleo
“I am constantly finding new information on this site. I started going through some of it tonight because of your e- mail and found this. There are a lot of familiar names, even those that we thought were wrong on the manifests. It cannot be a coincidence that so many of these names that were being ejected from their land also appear on the ships’ manifests. They could no longer earn a living in Ireland whether they were farmers or weavers”.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/civilbillejctments.htm
Donmac
‘Good find and there is plenty meat in that. My reading of the list is that as many of those who were being evicted were Protestant as were Catholics. Ditto, they were being evicted as often for overholding as for non-payment. I was curious how so many of these leases became due for renewal at the same time but I think I found the answer in the Hansard report below*.
I wonder also how many of the court actions arose from agrarian unrest and dissatisfaction with the landlord; how many of the court actions for overholding were successful; how many of the landlords had political aspirations and needed votes; how many of the estates were threatened with being encumbered; how many of the actions were the result of rackrenting? Once I have studied it a bit more, I will run this past Martin Dowling’.
* The Hansard report in 1847 on a Houses of Parliament debate on the subject.
In the late 1820s, an extension was brought in that without a by-your-leave the right to evict was bumped up in Ireland from property valued at £20 per annum rent to more than double at £50 per annum.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1847/jun/16/tenants-ireland-bill-adjourned-debate
Celticknot
“I didn’t know if this could be a resource for County Donegal”.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/kilmacfreeholders.htm.
Donmac
Thanks for that. I think I have come across it before and most likely it would not apply to our waxwings but I will double check. It was a duplicitous ploy by the new post-1800 British Government to deny to the less well-off, which included most Catholics, the right to vote. With the relaxation of the penal laws that year (1829) they did not want a flood of Catholics voting so they bumped up by five times the value of the land owned that qualified a person to vote.
From all of that and if I understand the situation correctly, by dint of political manoeuvring in London and sleight of hand, a situation was evolving in Ireland precisely at the same time that the bottom was falling out of the linen industry – sitting on land in Ireland that was valued at £10 per year rent entitled you to vote; sitting on land of up to £50 per year rent entitled you to be evicted.
Vic would have certain thoughts on this. A near facsimile of the situation had happened with his ancestors 150 years earlier – clearly little in Human Rights had changed for the better in Ireland in the meantime.
Eileen Breen
January 4, 2013 at 1:51 pm
Almost all of 797 people in County Donegal that were listed on the site you put up were on the list for overholding. It was either pay up or get out for these folks.
Timeline:
1813: Catholic relief Bill introduced by Grattan was defeated.
1816: Failure of the potato crop causes famine. Typhus epidemic Aug – Oct
1817-1819 Typhus epidemic kills 50,000 people in Ireland.
1820: Grattan dies.
1821: Potato crop fails Sept – Nov
1822: Fever follows famine in the west of Ireland June -Dec
1826: Act providing for uniform valuation of lands and tenements for the purpose of local taxation. Richard Griffith appointed commissioner of valuation.
1826: Fever epidemic and collapse of the linen industry in Dublin, Belfast, Cork and other towns.
1829: Relief Act: Allows Catholics to enter parliament, belong to any corporation and hold higher offices in state. Catholic Emancipation. Act raising county franchise from 40s. to 10 pound freehold
1831: Tithe War begins
1832: Asiatic Cholera appears in Belfast and Dublin and spread throughout Ireland. Lasts until 1833.
From: The Course Of Irish History
Don MacFarlane
January 4, 2013 at 6:05 pm
That looks like a pretty ‘neat’ timeline to me and it provides a nice skeleton to work around. Can you slot in some extra dates as well to do with introduction of industrialisation of the linen industry, introduction of the Passenger Act that quartered the cost of travel, encumbering of estates and anything of significance on the US side of things such as the reduction of the price of land in Ohio, any change to indenturing and the slave trade or anything else you can think of? I would also start the timeline in 1796.
Eileen Breen
January 5, 2013 at 1:55 am
The timeline I put up was just for background for what information that was put up on 1/4/13 about the Donegal page you put up. I can look at what you asked and put up a timeline for this. I put a lot up on the Ireland Timeline Family tree on Ancestry but I can try to add more US info.
Don MacFarlane
January 5, 2013 at 9:39 am
M Carleo
I also found this last night. It is a list of renters of Lord Abercorn from 1789. I am not sure how to read the table on annual rent. Does the first column show the present rent and the next column the new rents of the new leases? If it does, some of the rents have tripled.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/abercornrent.htm
Editorial Comment
Some thoughts spring to mind when reading this list:
There would be some connection between not signing a 21 year lease due for renewal and being called to Court for overholding if you still continued to sit on your rented property?
Rents would not be hiked up once every twenty years, they would be the equivalent of index-linked?
The rental would be proportionate to the value of the property and higher for good-quality arable land that a living could be made from?
For the better-quality land, it would be a poor gesture for a young able-bodied son to hike off to America if he were needed at home?
For the poorer-quality land, there would be no living to be made from it and a son might have to emigrate for all to subsist?
If a son disappeared to the likes of Duffy’s Cut (if he came from a poor family) and never was heard of again, that land-tenant might well appear in Court soon after for failure to pay rent?
This kind of table could usefully be cross-checked against other lists for landowners of one acre or more. I think I might have to buy a fresh copy of Martin Dowling’s book.
Don MacFarlane
January 5, 2013 at 9:49 am
Excellent Find from Celticknot
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/things/4280/child_labor/478193
Editorial Comment:
These records beg the question why emigrants would travel to PA from Ireland and other European countries to end up in doorways in Philadelphia. Presumably these were not indentured labourers or they would have had roofs over their heads? Presumably also they would not be recorded in censuses or street directories as they had no address?
Mary Cornell
January 5, 2013 at 6:52 pm
If you cross index the names on the Ejected list with the 1789 and1794 renters lists for the Abercorn estate, the recurring names were:
Armour, Colhoun, Gallagher, Gamble, Lowry, Moore and Park
And if rent was based on the value of the land, Colhoun and Lowry rented the more valuable land sections. All of the enactment petitions for Abercorn were for overholding.
Eileen Breen
January 2, 2013 at 9:44 pm
I’m trying to put in the changes you put in on Duffy Temp site. I’m up to McHenry
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 10:07 pm
I have got a replacement laptop now and I intend to update the spreadsheet soon. If you have made any changes already on it, could you send me any updated version of the spreadsheet so I don’t inadvertently spoil any other work that is not my own.
Don MacFarlane
January 3, 2013 at 1:17 am
Taking a step back from what we have been doing of late, we don’t need to locate the waxwings to prove the Watsons wrong. ‘Too many possibilities’ does the job just as well. I think we have ‘planted the bait’ for whoever wants to respond on Ancestry or wherever, thereby giving the personal angle with accounts such as the McQuillan/Diamond story, plus we have ‘nailed’ various myths, assumptions and misconceptions. All we need to do now is to sit back, consolidate what we have, run some basic statistics from the spreadsheet, and write something up after a suitable lapse of time.
Some basic results that (off the top of my head) we have so far include the ‘discoveries’ that:
Most of our waxwings are Ulster-Scots
Most signed up to the Act of Union
Few were registered on Tithe Applotment
Few were from Derry
Most of the Donegal and Tyrone ones came from within a 15 mile radius of Camus in Tyrone and the Laggan area of Donegal.
Few were to be found in the Philadelphia street directory
A good percentage were possibly to be found in rural PA and OH.
There is some evidence of chains of migration, firstly through Wilmington NC.
Few came from the Linen Triangle.
There is a lot more to come out yet and that is just for starters.
In short, we can afford to take a breather and assimilate what we have found already.
Even with what we have already, there is enough material there for a book.
If Mary tidies up a chapter for ‘The Sea is Wide’ we can start to look to the next phase.
In other words, a month’s break would be in order? This suggestion should not be taken as a sign that the project is wearing thin on me, anything but.
Mary Cornell
January 2, 2013 at 4:08 pm
http://www.infowanted.bc.edu
This is a database of over 40,000+ names of lost Irish immigrants in ads placed in the Boston Pilot by relatives and friends. Only up to the D’ s. None of our waxwings, so far, but the list does throw up a lot of hints to where some of our names might possibly be from originally. Many of the names are quite detailed as to birthplace. There are surnames that match our list that give a birthplace; possible links to our waxwings. The list is also very helpful in seeing migrations by family and county. From the few samplings, emigration from Counties Donegal, Tyrone and Derry occurred earlier than those in the south, as we already knew. The migrations of families out of Ireland can also be seen and some of the relatives knew where their missing relatives traveled to within the States once they arrived. Ex: Philadelphia>Ohio>Wisconsin.
BTW . There are a lot of missing Breens on the list, Eileen.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 4:58 pm
Thanks for that but there may be a typo (?) as the link does not work – at least for me it doesn’t.
Eileen Breen
January 2, 2013 at 5:38 pm
On the Boston College site there were a lot of resources. I think you can type in Boston College and Irish studies you may find it. When I looked at their ancestry class I saw the link Mary put up. I’ll have to check it out for missing Breen’s.
Mary Cornell
January 2, 2013 at 6:39 pm
Did you try typing the URL in the address bar?
One more time-
http://infowanted.bc.edu/
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 6:51 pm
Thanks, it worked this time.
Mary Cornell
January 2, 2013 at 4:00 am
All roads seem to come back to John Ruddy. I found another article on the Watson’ s investigation. This time when the female remains were found, WW said that the remains were most likely those of either Catherine Burns or Elizabeth Devine. According to Watson , this is based on the ‘ disappearance’ of these women and the fact they were on the John Stamp. Mind you, the remains were only recently exhumed at the time and there had been no forensic test conclusions presented. What also bothers me is the comments section at the bottom where a P. Ruddy asks if the remains were definitively those of John Ruddy. Someone answered that yes, it is definitive based on the dental anomaly present in Liam Ruddy, from Inoshowen, who had initiated the Ruddy request, and the same dental anomaly present in the remains. Pretty much a done deal, so they say.
http://www.irishecho.com/?p=63998
No doubt, this is your Patrick Ruddy who is just as amazed as we are that definitives are thrown about without any verifiable proof given. Where is the DNA? There should be DNA results by now. I would have expected that when dealing with an actual family member more care would be taken in giving answers.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 11:23 am
I must ask Patrick Ruddy is he missing his maxillary first molar tooth. If so, that could be as indicative for him as DNA findings. The Watsons have somewhat exagggerated the rarity of such an event as they put it as one in millions, except if running in families, which is nonsense. The true percentage is more like one in 3,000 of the population, which is still highly significant. I don’t begrudge the Watsons making that leap but to go further and conclude the labourers were all off the John Stamp is for me a step too far.
Mary Cornell
January 3, 2013 at 6:32 pm
Googling Ruddy/Templecrone, I found this site. Someone had researched Ruddy. I am not sure of the accuracy as there weren’t any citations as to sources, but for our purposes, here is the list.
DONEGAL
Bryan Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
Daniel Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
*Ellen Ruddy . Templecrone, Rutland Island or Inishmacadurn
James Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
James Ruddy . Clonmany, Urrismenagh
*Patrick Ruddy . Templecrone, Rutland Island or Inishmacadurn
William Ruddy . Inishmacsaint
Here is the site. It has Ruddy’ s in Ireland and the main concentration seems to be in County Mayo. http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/r/a/Steven-Grall/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0058.html
No waxing hits yet on the Boston College site.
Mary Cornell
January 1, 2013 at 6:43 am
HAPPY NEW YEAR, EVERYONE!
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 9:26 am
And to start the New Year off, I have just been contacted by a Pstrick Ruddy (a presumed contender for relative of John Ruddy) who is highly dubious of the Watsons and their agenda, whatever that might be!
He also attached what I presume to be a festive greetings
He asked me whether I could confirm that John Ruddy came from Templecrone, presumably where the Watsons have placed him, and according to Griffiths that would be Rutland Island off the West coast of deepest and Gaelic-speaking Donegal.
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 12:59 pm
Off on the Best Foot
A quick summary of where I think we have come from and where we could be going in 2013.
The most significant events of 2013 have been:
The Derry site had been dormant for a long time and almost extinct. Although visitor activity continued apace, very few visitors posted comments and that left me that I was losing interest in the site to such a degree that I was ready to jack it in.
Then Eileen and Mary came along, Eileen with her amazing enthusiasm and Mary with her attention to detail and objectivity. The two of them sparked off each other to such an extent that my own flagging interest in Irish social history of the period began to revive.
After fishing around a wide range of topics the one that stuck was Duffy’s Cut, dug up by Mary although known to me from before, and the rest is history.
Three new pages were add to the site but the FTT page is the one that has lit the torchpaper, with over a thousand posts over six months – most of them from Eileen and no outside interest seemingly apparent but the visits to the site are double that of last year.
I am content to have the Derry site mosey along as a bog-standard genealogy site, which is what by far the most of the visitors are seeking from it. There is a new person about, Debbie Lapeyrouse from Mississippi, who reminds me of Eileen with her enthusiasm and she could very well come on board. We will wait and see as her focus of interest for now is primarily the Scottish Highland that is on my sister-site, http://westernisles.wordpress.com. However, she has other intriguing branches on her family tree, the Blakeneys of Mount Blakeney in Galway, who were central to the colonisation of Ulster at the time of Oliver Cromwell.
We appear regrettably to have lost Winnie Woodhall due to some petty misunderstanding on her part and she could have been a very valuable resource. Ah well. The most recent addition is Vic Barnett, who actually with his PA Leslie inspired and constructed the prototype for this site. I am gratified that Vic sees value in the Duffy’s Cut Inquest which will remain the primary focus of this site in 2013.
As far as the direction the research will take in 2013, for that is what it is, I think we will need Vic’s azimuth to see the project through. Much of the time it seems like a polar expedition in a snowstorm. I have a hope that enough will have been achieved by 2014 to enrich my planned visit to Lancaster County and to the Watsons if I have not fallen out with them by then!
Eileen Breen
January 1, 2013 at 1:02 pm
Awesome! How did you find him? This area seems to be remote area for someone to be recruited from. Why not places closer to the Foyle River? Why did the Watsons feel he was from Templecrone, Rutland Island? Also wouldn’t the language barrier pose a problem for working in US?
Happy New Year Everyone!
Eileen Breen
January 1, 2013 at 1:26 pm
The 1901 and 1911 censuses for Templecrone, Rutland Island, Donegal have no Ruddys listed. There is a Boyle family. I think I read that someone with the last name Boyle came to the service for the Duffy’s Cut memorial. There is a researcher with an email address for Rutland Island listed on the Rutland Island site. You had put him in Malin, Ballyshannon, Donegal. I put both these places under his name on Ancestry. I quickly tried to do a search for Ruddy on Ancestry with residence Rutland Island but so far nothing has come up. There was one listing for a Ruddy in Donegal but not Rutland Island and several in Philadelphia.
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 1:46 pm
Rutland Island is really just a piece of rock, almost a stone’s throw reach from Burtonport and it was finally evacuated of people about fifty years ago. The further-out island, Arranmore, has people still living on it and a ferry goes there (it takes about ten minutes) from Burtonport. I suspect these particular Ruddys all moved away from Rutland Island long ago, perhaps ending up in Arranmore Island, Burtonport or Glenties if they stayed local.
Patrick Ruddy posted a message on my celtdomain.org site which supports the ‘Sea is Wide’ book. I hope to keep up a correspondence with him and winkle more information from him. I suspect he was the person who originally contacted the Watsons and that set the memorial thing going. He expressed disillusionment with the Watsons as there had been talk of a DNA project (he might even have given a sample) as he has heard nothing further from them for two years and he thinks it has all died a death. It was Patrick that mentioned Templecrone, the parish Rutland Island is in, and I presume the name was banded about between them. Watch this space!
Eileen Breen
January 1, 2013 at 2:16 pm
I found a Tithe record for John Ruddy 1828 in Cleaghbeg, Donegal. The map puts it near Glenties. Did you want to write to the researcher for Rutland Island? I can send you her email address or you can find it under the Rutland 1901 and 1911 census?
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 2:23 pm
I think I’ll wait till I hear back from Patrick Ruddy first to see what else he has got but do feel free, if you want, to chase up the Glenties or Rutland end in the meantime. The name was so scarce in Donegal I have to think they were all connected in some way anyhow.
Don MacFarlane
January 1, 2013 at 3:40 pm
I have checked these censuses and note that almost all the Ruddys are from the Inishowen peninsula, nowhere near Templecrone/Rutland/Glenties.
Eileen Breen
January 3, 2013 at 1:37 pm
On Find-a-Grave:
Someone put up a memorial to John Ruddy and says that the body was returned to Donegal. If Patrick Ruddy writes again can you ask if the body is buried in Templecrone, Rutland Island or somewhere else in Donegal. I’m not sure if they made a memorial to all the laborers at Duffy’s Cut. I haven’t had a chance to look it up yet.
Eileen Breen
January 2, 2013 at 2:24 pm
The article Mary put up doesn’t mention Templecrone. I tried to see if Patrick or Liam Ruddy were on Ancestry and I don’t see their trees under their names. There are a lot of people researching the Ruddy name. Two trees have links to PA but in the 1890s.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 6:46 pm
Extant Donegal Baptism Records
The only baptismal records for CofI (I) and Presbyterian (P) relevant to our waxwings are from dates as listed below.
CofI
Clondavaddog 1794 – on; Donegal 1808 – on; Drumhome 1719 – on; Fahan Upper 1762 – on; Inver 1805 – on; Killygarvan 1706 – on; Raphoe 1771 – on; Tullyaughnish 1798 – on.
Presbyterian
Donaghmore 1803 – on; Ramelton 1806 – on.
RC
Records are generally unavailable for this period.
Don MacFarlane
January 2, 2013 at 7:01 pm
Extant Tyrone Baptismal Records
The only baptism records available for our waxwings are:
RC
Moy (Clonfeacle) 1814 – on; Clonoe 1810 – on; Camus 1773 – on.
londonderry
December 29, 2012 at 3:20 pm
This is all most interesting to me…..as an aside I don’t know if I’ve ever seen such a group of
Type A personalities. Don’t you folks take a break during the holidays?
One of the mysteries in my Barnett family was John Barnett’s (born 1678 in Derry) occupation. I am pretty sure his father was a wool manufacturer, read weaver, when he moved to Ulster from lowland Scotland. When he emigrated in 1729 with his family he bought a farm in Tinglestown just east of Harrisburg. Your post indicates that it was common for weaver’s to also farm and vice versa. That explains a lot. He probably did both farm and weave. Another mystery is that his oldest son, my GGGGGrandfather moved to Amherst County, Va leaving the Pa farm. This has always puzzled me since he should have been the first in line to inherit the farm. I suspect, without proof, that he didn’t want the tough life that his family had and wanted to strike out on his own. It also could have been a disagreement. It is an example of a family not staying together as they did in Scotland and Ulster. My theory is the chance to own land was too attractive to a land constraint Ulster environment.
I am half way through Duffy’s Cut and enjoying it. Never suspected the many positive and negative facets of the congruence of religions. Seems to me that the Ulster crucible has been one of the world’s greatest examples of turmoil sparked by injustice and insensitivity. I don’t think my Presbyterian /Methodist family experienced the environment confronting the waxwings. I also don’t think they ever disparaged the Catholics albeit they didn’t like the religion. Playing Notre Dame in football was like fighting the Kremlin. On the book, I’m still reserving judgment.
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 12:40 am
The Gender Division Of Labor In The Production Of Textiles in The 18th Century in PA: This was an article about weavers and spinners in Chester County PA in 18th century.
In New England, rural woman were the core of the linen industry. In South Eastern PA the men were at the center of the industry. Male weavers in Chester County, PA retained control over their looms and weaving. They maintained a home based textile industry well into the 18th century. They maintained a balance between skilled craftsmanship and farming. They exported flax seed to Ireland which depended on American flax for its linen production. Ireland used the mature flax seed they produced for fine linen products and the new seed for other linen production needs. The men and woman from one family would work together. Woman worked as spinners and the men wove and finished the cloth. The work was done in the cities rather than the countryside as it was done in New England. Philadelphia was known for it’s fancy goods.
Weavers of fine cloth were also active in agriculture. This established an international need for its products. Weaving was done by hand until water powered mills came into use. In Europe woman were excluded from weaving and finishing in cloth production. This policy continued in Pennsylvania. In early America women in rural communities were responsible for cloth production for commercial and home use. By the 18th century there was a division of labor within the linen industry.
In Pennsylvania, men were artisans who combined their craft with farming. They experienced a lifestyle similar to Europeans. They worked with an extended labor force that utilized free labor, apprentices and paid workers. Records for the weavers are located in Probate records, tax lists that included loom owners, books, newspapers and court records. In Pennsylvania, English, Scots Irish and German immigrants were involved in weaving and the linen industry. The majority of households in PA that owned looms also were involved in farming.
A woman was trained to operate the spinning wheel. She may have purchased her own or inherited the spinning wheel. In turn, she would hand down the spinning wheel to her daughter. This was observed in probate records. Woman did the spinning for commercial needs and for her family. A woman may have her daughter earn the trade of spinning by becoming an indentured servant. In the early 1700s thirty per cent of households had a spinning wheel. By the late 1800s 65% of homes did. Wealthier woman hired free and hired labor to do the spinning in her home then would hire the men to weave and finish the cloth. The woman spent their income on personal items.
The weavers accounted for 13-20% of the taxable income in Chester County, PA. Men outnumbered women in the 17th to 18th centuries in PA. Males spent 50% of their income on personal needs and the rest was used to purchase land. The weavers started out as apprentices with no land or family. His production of cloth was at its highest. By midlife he had a family and he was able to purchase land. He then had to hire an assistant to help with the work. He maintained a supervisory role in the industry. By the end of his career his status increased as he has earned enough to establish his own woollen business with multiple workers. His wife might also have worked with him as a spinner. The majority (40%) of weavers were single, 25% were married without children.
Maybe our weavers are in probate records and wills in Chester County, PA?
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 11:11 am
Great stuff, all of it. Great minds think alike as I have only yesterday purchased ‘The Impact of the Domestic Linen Industry in Ulster’ by W.H. Crawford who did his PhD on this subject. I have it in my hand as I write but I have not got stuck into it yet. Just glancing at a table in the book, the change in the Size of Holdings in the Brownlow Estate in Central Ulster during the latter half of the 1700s went from an even spread in the size of holdings, there was a gradual chopping up of the largest holdings of 100 acres so that by 1800 most holdings were 5-10 acres (30%) and 10-20 acres (20%). There were 400 holdings in total, most of them on leases of at least thirty years.
http://www.craigavonhistoricalsociety.org.uk/rev/clendinningbrownlowfamily.html
Crawford goes on to describe the ‘Linen Triangle’, a name given to the area of Ulster south of Lough Neagh where the finest linens were produced. He includes in that a part of Tyrone which would take in some of our waxwings – the townlands of Clonfeacle or Moy (725,40%), Killyman (204,40%), Clonoe (72,16%), Donaghenry or Stewartstown (268,80%), Tullyniskan (114,50%), Drumglass (76,40%), Donaghmore (540,40%) and Dungannon (160,80%). The first figure in brackets refers to the census number of the religion of the household and the second refers to what percentage of the population of that townland was Protestant. I reckon that not all of our waxwings were Protestant, but about three-quarters were.
Looking at our own demographic breakdown, our waxwing weavers who said they were from Tyrone were – Aiken, Donaghey, Foster, Livingstone, McRory, Potter and Rice. Of these, listed in Griffiths for Clonfeacle were Aiken and McRory; for Killyman were Donaghy and Rice; for Clonoe were Donaghy and McRory; for Donaghenry were Donaghy and McRory; for Tullyniskan was McRory; for Drumglass were Donaghy and McRory; for Donaghmore were Donaghy and McRory; and for Dungannon is part of Drumglass. The inference that comes from all of that is that there were few if any weaver emigrants from parishes in the Linen Triangle. A cross-check of Clinfeacle shows a 40/60 split so that theory will require further testing down the line – mainly because most of the waxwings who were possibly from Clonfeacle were in fact from Donegal or went on the Asia, which did not list county, or were women and juveniles so numbers for testing were insufficient.
However, on balance the picture has face validity at least – weaving families from the Linen Triangle parishes held on tightly to their source of income and did not welcome outsiders to share their largesse. Those not fortunate enough to be born into weaving families with at least five acres had to look abroad. The weavers from Donegal may be similar but Crawford’s book does not cover that county. However, the same intuitive logic would still apply -if the waxwing did not come from the Laggan area of Donegal adjoining Letterkenny he or she would have been kept out. There were few waxwings from Derry which is another puzzle.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 12:55 pm
Donegal Weavers Listed on Spinning Wheel Entitlement.
Only two waxwing names from Donegal were listed as weavers.
Doack – Tully, Claughboyne, Clondavaddog, Raphoe.
Ewing – Donaghmore, Templemore, Inch, Rye, Fahan, Moville, Conwal.
This tends to confirm that the only weavers amongst the emigrants of Summer 1832 were from poorer parts of counties Tyrone and Donegal.
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 1:29 pm
In Ireland did the weavers receive money from the government to maintain their weaving business. In PA they were taxed on their income.
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 1:48 pm
You said that the linen triangle produced the finest linens. The Farmers in PA sent American flax to Ireland not for the finest grade of linen but one step down from that. So maybe poorer weavers who were edged out of the finest linen trade could still weave other grades of linen. It probably was a competitive business.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 2:56 pm
Yes. I read in one of my recent sources that the poorer types of fabric made in Ireland were sent back to the US to make clothes for the slaves on the plantations. I think there were hierarchies of weavers and some made more money than others. It still doesn’t take away from the emerging fact, if it is the case, that those weavers in the Linen Triangle did not by and large emigrate to the US. It will require some more digging to verify what could prove to be a novel and as yet unpublished finding.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 3:01 pm
I don’t know the ins and outs of the economics yet but it has been extensively looked at by Marilyn Cohen in her book, ‘The Dynamics of Capitalism in the Irish Linen Industry’ (2003). It is rather an expensive volume so for now I will have to be content with what I have, coupled with
http://www.academia.edu/1583733/The_Irish_Scottish_and_Flemish_Linen_Industries_During_the_Long_Eighteenth_Century
Eileen Breen
December 29, 2012 at 12:59 pm
That’s interesting our waxwing’s were not from the linen triangle. I forgot to put in that The researcher who did the article about weavers in Philadelphia found that the weavers in their younger years said they were weavers but later in life after their families had grown and they established their own woolen business they called themselves farmers. In their later years they did less weaving and hired young men to work for him. It would be interesting to see if the farmers were also weavers in their early lives and to see if they grew flax. The Presbyterians wanted smaller land holdings. A few of the records showed their property was worth $800.00 in early years and%1500.00 in their later years. This may fit that they were weavers who depended on farming and their income improved as they established their business.
Eileen Breen
December 31, 2012 at 10:40 pm
From: Enterprising Elite And The Boston Associates And The World They Made: (mills in New England) The farmers daughters would come to the cities to work for the mills that the Boston Associates owned. They were required to have high moral statndards and to go to church each week. They lived in boarding houses and matron would supervise them in the house. They were paid better than most professions for woman and the work was consistent throughout the year unlike teaching and domestic service. The position provided them with a better status than domestic service and they were paid in cash which was a relatively new way of paying employees. Woman were required to save their money to help pay for expenses at home, save for a dowry or a brother’s education. They worked 12 hours per day, six days per week in poor conditions. Breaks were rigid and supervised. The loud sounds of the machinery was constant. Workers would be watched for signs that they were not able to keep up with the production and would be let go thus no longer be able to earn a living. Mill owners actively recruited woman a s a source of cheap labor for the mills. Woman were seen as a temporary employees that would stay until they save enough money then would leave. Waiting lists were long. Woman were seen as part of the machinery of the mill. The coarser lesser grades of cloth was more desirable than fancy linens. Mill owners at first could not sell an improved higher grade of cloth. They sold it to an auctioneer who sold it at 30 cents per yard and the mill owner earned a one percent commission from the sale for each yard sold. Mill owners recruited whole families from farming communities with several small children to work in the mills. They would be paid on store credit in the mills. In order to keep peace in the mills the mill owners knew they had to start to pay woman a higher rate or they would find opportunities elsewhere or go to work in southern states where the wages were higher.
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 4:09 pm
What a Lazy Lot?
‘Weaver households had a higher preference for leisure and with the arrival of the linen trade they were able to meet their consumption needs with less effort. Their surplus earnings also meant they could enter marriages which they must otherwise have postponed and which led to population growth. They had low education and narrow horizons as they had already reached their ‘upper bound’. Others contributed the population growth, not to earlier marriage, but to absence of push factors compelling migration’ and a decline in infant mortality’.
Strangely, this quote from Jane Gray’s book on the linen industry refers not to Irish folk but to their competitors in Flanders in Belgium. Whether lazy and primitive or not, something the Irish and the Belgians were alleged to have in common, both places produced the finest linen, streets ahead of anywhere else.
Don MacFarlane
December 30, 2012 at 12:40 am
Further quotes from Jane Gray
‘A shortfall of female labour at the end of the eighteenth century led to quicker industrialization in Ireland’.
‘Despite wages that were amongst the lowest in Europe, the process of industrialization in Ireland was confined to a small enclave’.
‘Mokyr noted that Ireland was the only country in Europe to experience large-scale outmigration in the first half of the nineteenth century’.
‘During the first half of the eighteenth century, Irish linen increasingly substituted for European imports on the English market’.
‘Potato cultivation led to narrower birth intervals because women spent less time breast – feeding’.
‘Women and children were unemployed and they occupied themselves in poorly remunerated tasks because they had nothing better to do’.
‘The wage-gap between skilled and unskilled labour was markedly smaller in Scotland than it was in Ireland where it increased even further in the early nineteenth century’.
‘Linen weavers’ wages were much lower than for other skilled craftsmen. Irish weavers earned 66% of other craftsmen whereas Scottish weavers earned 80%’.
‘Irish weavers earnes 1s 5d per day for fine linen and 1s 2d for course linen in the 1770s, compared to 1s 9d for masons and carpenters. Thirty years later, weavers earned little more although they could earn up to 2s 6d per day when trade was brisk’.
‘During the last quarter of the eighteenth century, increase in demand for coarser linens drew men into the business with less training. Duing this period, outlying markets had a greater share of growth in input than the Linen Triangle’.
‘In the linen industry, because of the technological bottleneck, men were outnumbered by women [who earned less than half as much] by a factor of four to one’.
‘A weaving household of four adult women to spin and one adult male to weave earned less than two unskilled labourers’.
Table 2 (page 50)
In the same fifty year period spanning the second half of the eighteenth century, in Scotland and Flanders the population increased by 50%. In Ireland it doubled, producing a surplus population of 2 million people.
Conclusion
The arithmetic on page 25 of the paper by Prof Jane Gray of Maynooth University draws one to a shocking conclusion. Women spinners (spinsters) in Ireland were little better than slave labour who worked for nothing in a cottage industry that kept the Irish Linen industry afloat. The exploitation was compounded and perpetuated by the Spinning Wheel Premiums which entitled a weaving family to have four spinning wheels and a loom.
This offer was a mirage of hope for families living on a potato-line (instead of a breadline) as merchants before long refused to ‘put out’ their flax for spinning as it robbed them of profit, hence a drive towards emigration for young unmarried women. Meanwhile, women who were already married became burdened with small families as working in the potato fields was not conducive to the natural contraceptive that was breastfeeding.
Commentary: This Professor Gray could be a very useful resource to call upon as she knows her stuff and could be a kindred spirit as she comes from Indiana.
Don MacFarlane
December 30, 2012 at 4:47 pm
Weaver Families
Ship John Stamp
Donegal
Doak – John (19) and Amelia (17).
Ewing – Robert (18) and John (16).
Skelton – Thomas (22) and Robert (20).
Tyrone
McRory – James (18), Heather (18), Edward (17).
Anderson – Mary (22) and Miriam (21).
Derry
Laughlin – Joseph (24) and Jane (24)
McConnell – William (21) and Robert (18).
Ship Asia
Henderson – David (30), Mary (26) and Jane.
Gallagher – William (30), Mary (30) and Eliza.
Culbertson – Letitia (21) and John (20).
Shields – William (21) and Mary (21).
Bradley – Michael (25), Peter (22) and Patrick (21).
Ship Ontario
Aiken family.
Ship Prudence
None
Commentary.
There are very few sibling couples or large family units listed as weavers who travelled to PA that summer but plenty of young weaver bachelors. Unless some of the young females registered as spinsters are from weaver families, there is no indication of poverty traps in weaving families having been the reason for emigration.
Eileen Breen
December 30, 2012 at 11:43 pm
It’s sad to think the weavers and spinners worked hard but got nothing in return. Perhaps that’s why they weren’t motivated to produce more. I had a GG grandfather from Alsace that came here to work as a weaver. I always thought he had a skill. Someone decided that weavers and spinners were unskilled to keep the costs of labor down and to boost their profits. When we went to Donegal we saw the weaver in the shop working. It definitely took skill to produce the fabric he made.
Don MacFarlane
December 31, 2012 at 12:12 am
Statistical Notes from Bandon in County Cork 1844
There were 126 schools with almost five thousand pupils for a population of 80-odd thousand. One in six people could read and write, three times as many could neither read nor write, and the rest could read only, meaning that half the people could read.
One family in three lived in mud cabins of one room; one in three lived in mud cottages of more than one room and with a window; one quarter of families lived in farm houses of solid construction; and the rest (1 in 30) lived in a superior class of house.
One in 50 were farmers who had more than five acres; 60 per cent of adult males were labourers; and one in three adults of working age had stable employment.
Don MacFarlane
December 31, 2012 at 12:17 am
Kindred Spirits
‘A well remembered donation to famine relief was that made by the Choctaw tribe of American Indians who in 1847 sent a donation of $710, the equivalent of more than $100,000 today. They had a special affinity with the hungry and those who had lost their homes, since it was only 16 years since their tribe had been made homeless and walked the “Trail of Tears” from Oklahoma to Mississippi, along which many of them died.
This extraordinary gift from a people who were themselves impoverished has never been forgotten. In 1997, the 150th anniversary of that generous gesture, a group of Irish people walked alongside members of the Chokraw Nation along the 500 mile Trail of Tears in reverse, back to the Choctaw homeland’
http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/food-history/the-irish-potato-famine-1846-1850/
Eileen Breen
December 30, 2012 at 2:00 pm
Perhaps producing the finest linen they could get a high wage for it. So those receiving larger wages didn’t need to work as much large wages as they produced smaller amounts of higher quality qoods. I don’t think they were lazy. I think they produced what they needed to maintain their life style, to establish a business plan for their children’s future and to enjoy the good life!
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Tied to the Spinning Wheel
According to Almquist and others, hand-spinning of linen was correlated with getting married younger and having larger families. Horrible thought, but most of these young women on these ships were already past the age of getting married? Their ages were 25, 22, 26, 22, 22, 26, 20, 22, 20, 24, 26, 20, 26, 20, 20, 26, 24, 22,18, 20, 22, 20, 24, 18, 24, 18, 21.
Eileen Breen
December 31, 2012 at 12:56 pm
I’m still trying to locate probate and land records for our weavers / farmers. I couldn’t find it on Ancestry. Perhaps Pennsylvania.gov. BTW: The comment reply box is not at the end of this page as it usually is
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 5:32 am
I looked at family groups from the Ontario. I may have found the Ryan family.
Christopher b 1896 and Mary b 1800 from Rossgier, Donegal and their children: Eleanor “Ellen”, b 1821 Fanny “Frances” b 1823, Nancy b 1825, Mary b 1827 and Christopher H. b 1831.
1860 census: Urbana, Champaign, OH lists: Christopher, Mary, Fanny, Christopher (sailor). 1850 census lists just Mary and Christopher (Parents). Family is not listed in 1870 or 1880 census in OH. 1840 census doesn’t list people’s names except for Christopher Ryan: 1 male: age 10-14, 1 male: 40-49, 1 female: 15-19, 1 female 30-39 and 1 female; 50-59. There is a 86 yr old Fanny Ryan listed with Ryans on one of the censuses. Don’t know the relationship.
Fanny “Francis” Married a George Ketchum. Her obit from Find a Grave Ohio (Urbana Newspaper Abstract 3 Apr 1890) says the parents are Mary and Christopher Ryan who came to Urbana, Champaign, OH from Londonderry, Ireland. Frances died at her sister’s home in NY, her sister being “Ellen”, or Eleanor Columba Anderson, who was married to William Marshall Anderson (there is a profile on him from family trees that’s interesting). Her children are listed under her profile.
Sister, Anna Ryan, married Admiral Febiger (he has a profile from family trees and he was prominent in the Civil War). She’s not on the Ontario* I can’t find anything on sister: Nancy Ryan
Christopher H. Ryan was a sailor in 1860 census. I found a few Civil war records but I’m not sure if they belong to him. Next of kin is William Ryan. The only William we have is William Marshall Anderson.
The tree is on Ancestry under the Ontario.
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 5:39 am
I looked at families A-R so far on the Ontario. I went through family groups on the John Stamp and Prudence 2x and the updates are already listed. Mary and you did all the ships as well. So after the Ontario is done I think we have all been through all the ships’ names a few times. I didn’t get to put up all the changes for the place names from 2 weeks ago.
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 9:51 am
Well done with that. Maybe it was worthwhile going to the trouble to find out what Prossgear really meant?
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 10:34 am
BTW There is no Ryan household listed in Griffiths for Rossgeir which is in the Parish of Clonleigh but there is one Ryan household, head of household called Patrick, in Birdstown next door, also in Clonleigh. So why would they say Rossgeir? Maybe their house was tumbled but I would say it is the same lot of folks and Patrick was left behind.
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Maybe Rossgier is the next largest townland. maybe if they said a smaller townland the person taking the names down wouldn’t know where it was. When we tell someone what city I’m from they may not know it but if I say the largest city near me then they may know about where it is! We can keep checking the hints on the trees maybe something else will pop up.
Eileen Breen
December 28, 2012 at 3:35 pm
FFT: From 50 States.com When states received their statehood
1787-1796: 16 states: DE, *PA, NJ, GA, CT, MA, MD, SC, NH, VA, *NY (1 record), NC, RI, VT, KY, TN
1803-1896: *OH, LA, IN, MI, *IL, AL, ME, AK, MI, FL, TX, Iowa, WV, CA, MN, *Missouri, OR, KN, NV, NE, CO, ND, SD, MT, WA, WY, UT
1907-1959: OK, NM, AZ, AL, Hawaii
* states are were we have records for our families on the manifests.
I read the rail roads by 1840’s were in 11 states. The story for the Pennsylvania Port may be that people moved at least twice by covered wagon. and by 1880’s by immigrant train or rail car. Also the choice seems to be a personal one- economics: (jobs, land) and maybe to stay w/ their church. Prior to 1780’s the emigration seems to be for religious reasons: (5 waves of emigration and the Presbyterian church that also expanded west.)
In PA our people seem to spread west for the land for farming. Cheaper land and land grants were made land available in western states in 1800’s. Maybe our story could group together some of our farmers, their move from PA to OH, Illinois, Missouri (temporarily during Civil War) and Wisconsin. Later generations moved to: Texas, Colorado and Wyoming, California and Nevada.
We have records for Presbyterian, RC faiths in 18th and 19th centuries.
The records for the laborers seem to have too many variables. Single names still seem to be more difficult to find. Family groups seem to be easier to find. The farmers appear in census records seem to be easier to find. The weavers also have been difficult to find ( I don’t think we found any weavers or laborers). Perhaps weavers and laborers rented instead of owned. They should have been in census records. It would be interesting to see if laborers and weavers were more likely to be single or married and if they owned or rented property.
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 10:02 pm
From the lists of names per parish for Tyrone and Donegal, the names that appear infrequently or not at all are: Brisland (Donegal – Innishkeel, Clonmany or Killybegs), Dermott (Donegal), Diver (Donegal), Doak (Donegal – Clondavaddog, Taughboyne or Raphoe), Fergie (Belfast), Carland (Donegal – Clonleigh), Gilfillan (Derry – Clondermot or Faughanvale), Harold (Donegal – Conwal or Raphoe), Hastings (Donegal), Hay (Tyrone – Urney or Bodoney Upper), McAnaney (Tyrone – Ardstraw, Bodoney Upper or Capagh), McDonagh (Donegal), McHenry (Antrim), McMichael (Tyrone – Aghaloo or Bodoney), Menagh (Down or Derry), Nee (Donegal – Leck), Potter (Tyrone), Risk (Derry – Clondermot), Ruddy (Donegal), Scallan (Tyrone – Donacavey, Termonmaguirk or Drumragh), Sherwood (Derry – Templemore), Sterling (Antrim).
That adds up to just 22 names or about 15% of the total and these are super-waxwings. These names if spotted are much more likely to be the real deal and not cases of mistaken identity. The downside is that because they are rarer they are less likely to be spotted. Where only county is mentioned that means that nonetheless the name is sufficiently rare for that to be enough. I mean to concentrate my efforts on these two dozen names only for the time being.
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 11:42 pm
Dermott Genealogy Forum
http://genforum.genealogy.com/dermott/
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 11:45 pm
Diver Genealogy Forum
http://genforum.genealogy.com/divers/index.html#1
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 11:57 pm
Gilfillans of Derry
http://www.gilfillanfamily.com/gilfill1.htm
londonderry
December 29, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Dermott—-this is especially interesting to me. My grandfather and his family lived in Dermott Arkansas in Chicot County. The county furthest South East next to the Mississippi River, and on a railline. When I researched the name Dermott, I found that the town was named for a farmer named McDermott who bought a plantation in the rich river bottom. This brought me to a site to research how Scottish names were generated and I found that a Gaelic tradition ofth used was to add a Mc in front to indicate, “son of”. So McDonald indicates the son of Donald. There are many other protocols on this site but I have this question. Was there a norm when the Mc was dropped or not. Was it in America, Ulster, when leaving Scotland or random? Pardon the rulebased preciseness and neatness that us engineers always look for in the world. But it does raise the question, could any of the waxwings have similar name changes?
The very interesting site is: http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?560
I am learning a lot from this voyage that you guys are taking!!!!!
Don MacFarlane
December 29, 2012 at 12:21 am
What It’s All About
A lovely couple from Oklahoma City seeking their Ulster-Scots Ancestors
Mary Cornell
December 29, 2012 at 8:17 am
Response to your super waxwings-
Super Super Waxwings in the US Census 1860-1920
Male or female from Ireland w/following names-
Fergie (1)
Brisland (24)
McAnaney (37)
Menagh (40)
Risk (67)
The name McMichael is listed 252 times, but 50% are in Philadelphia.
Doak is listed 208 times.
Most numerous is Hastings (1245)
Mary Cornell
December 29, 2012 at 6:18 am
Have my computer working well enough to use. Finally able to post a comment on the Thompsons. I found another Isabella Thompson along with her husband, Bery(?) and children who came to Philadelphia in 1830 on the Margaret Miller. She also had children named John and Alexander. Could these be the ones that you were finding? I found it odd that there were two Isabella Thompsons. The ages are completely different so they appear to be two different women.
I will make a couple more passes on the Ontario to see if anything else shows up.
I found several very interesting works by Dennis Clark who spent 30+ years writing on the Irish in Philadelphia and is considered a foremost expert on the subject. Much like Don, he was also an expert in social and urban dynamics and how they are affected by a culture. He spent many years in urban development in Philadelphia and he was a strong believer in knowledge and understanding of one’s culture and how it plays out in the urban sphere.
None of his writings are available online, but you can read several excerpts through Google/Amazon books. I was a little disappointed in his earlier writings as I was expecting much more researched and detailed writings, but the later works seem to make up for that. Sadly, he died several years ago. He would have been an excellent source for some of our unanswered questions.
maccarleo
December 26, 2012 at 5:49 pm
Computor is down. Don’s computor is a bad influence. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas.
maccarleo
December 26, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Computer is down. Don’s computer is a bad influence. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas.
Don MacFarlane
December 26, 2012 at 10:06 am
Hi Vic. If you mean what photo was that on the Header, I haven’t a clue. It was just chosen at random from the WordPress gallery of themes. Sorry to disappoint. I thought it was time to give a fresh look to the site and I coldn’t access my own Ulster photo gallery as my computer is broken. However, I have reverted to an earlier frontispiece for the site as it has restored certain functionalities that the more experimental themes could not deliver.
A review of the activity for 2012 on the site shows:
Over 26,000 ‘hits’, which is double that of last year and four times as much as when the site was set up five years ago. That translates to roughly nine thousand visitors.
The site still retains its name for now of Genweb but in fact more than 90 per cent of the activity comes from Google searches.
A pie chart per country would show – 50% of visitors are from the US; 20% are from the UK; 10% are from British Commonwealth countries; 3% are from Ireland; and the rest are random.
Favourite clicks are for: billmacafee.com; familysearch.org; and census.nationalarchives.ie. This suggests that the majority of visitors are armchair genealogists and that they have much less interest in the social commentary and social history themes that have been picked up by FTT this year. Either that or they are satisfied with the pages which have enough meat in them, without any need to explore further. This is somewhat at odds with the poll results that show that over 56% of visitors to the site claim to be interested in history as well as ancestry.
Irrespective of all of the above, I am really pleased that our small team have formed and that they have begun to drill down into the social issues of the period which impacted upon ancestors in Ireland around the times of the Famines. Living in the place, it has opened my eyes and I look around me with a fresh pair of eyes at places that I barely noticed before.
Eileen Breen
December 24, 2012 at 1:09 am
I’m looking at the Prudence. So far nothings coming up for names A-L. The Leitch family has a tree I saw but I can’t access it. When I googled Leitch family, Tyrone: there was a tree from Ardstraw, Tyrone. I was wondering if this is the one you found?
Don MacFarlane
December 24, 2012 at 4:38 am
Unless I am mistaken, the only Tyrone waxwings that could have travelled on the Prudence were Barr (NOT Clogher or Aghaloo), Birney (NOT Clogher), Crawford (Donacavey), Deery, Hay (Urney or Bodoney), Keys (Donaghedy or Donacavey), Leitch (NOT Ardstraw) or Patrick (Ardstraw). The parishes they are most likely not from are in the brackets if it says NOT, otherwise the parish is correct. I say this because the website AskaboutIreland lists these surnames from those parishes as landlords if I have put NOT, so unlikely to be travelling as labourers or farmhands. I have used the Failtromhat website most for Griffiths but I have recently discovered this other website which has the advantage of listing sitting tenants as well as heads of household. Failteromhat has the advantage of listing ‘all’ names within a parish but is not exhaustive as it does not include non-householders as far as I know. Hence Askabout more closely resembles a census.
Tenants listed for these landlords were:
Barr – various, including McCann, McNally etc.
Birney – over 20 in number at various addresses, including Wilsons, Cosgrave, Stewart etc.
Leitch – 15 in number in Carncorran Glebe (Castlederg), perhaps all farmhands and servants, including Gallon, McSorley, Corcoran etc.
This Askabout site puts a rather different perspective on things. Clearly, there are tiers of prosperity at work here with some folks able to employ significant numbers of others as helps and farmhands. It may be on closer scrutiny that my suspicions will prove correct, that our ‘farmer’ waxwings were really farmhands and will be listed on this site as such. In any event, I feel I am closing in on these waxwings bit by bit, at least as far as their parishes of origin in Ireland. I have a bit to go yet with the ‘triangulation’ method but I am getting there.
Eileen Breen
December 24, 2012 at 9:18 pm
I think I found the Thompson family from the Prudence. Two brothers lived in Wisconsin and there are several trees on Ancestry, including:jamiemorrison 1974. The two brothers in Wisconsin, William Henry and John, were farmers and owned land in Wrightstown, Brown, Wisconsin. another brother, Alexander, lived in Ontario, Canada.
I am still working out the details. They were RC. Brother John died in Morristown, Brown, WI, and there is a tombstone photo with documents (some are upside down – just as they were on Ancestry)
Eileen Breen
December 25, 2012 at 4:30 am
Some things seem ok with this family [some not]. The Philadelphia part on the ship matches with the Wisconsin census but there are two questions so far. Several family members have Isabella as having a husband, Edward, but there is no Edward Thompson on the Prudence. Maybe he came over earlier. Also, two sons lived in WI but Isabella is listed as a spinster on the ship with several children. I can’t find a death date for Isabella. Isabella had a son or nephew called Alexander and several people have him living in Canada. Edward Thompson lived in Canada but the kids’ names don’t match the ship manifest or the Wisconsin census. On his death certificate Edward is Presbyterian but his brother William H. Thompson is RC. Also on the ship William is a laborer but on the Wisconsin census he is a farmer. If this turns out to be correct we will need to cross-check all our laborers as farmers. I think this suggestion was proposed by Mary and Don.
Don MacFarlane
December 25, 2012 at 8:15 am
This case throws up several issues, quite apart from the two raised so far which are a) how to link up spouses that may have travelled separately b) how to square different religions within the same family. Normally those two things alone, if not satisfactorily accounted for, would disqualify the family under scrutiny from further consideration. However, if other things add up (whatever these ‘other things’ might be) then the family might not be so easy to dismiss. But there would be a need to specify what these ‘other things’ could be that can compensate for what seems to be an obvious mismatch (duly weighted as well probably, as well as specified).
Bigger issues, in the sense that they are about the groups as a whole rather than individual cases, have to do with the method of sampling. Quota sampling is problematic and if it is to be done it would have to be done without bias. If a name is to be discarded in favour of a name for which information has come to light, the discarded name would have to be recorded to ensure ‘like for like’. Secondly, if we are keeping to the waxwing method then the Thompsons do not qualify as the name is very common, as well as very dispersed throughout Tyrone where this family came from, and the potential for misidentification is correspondingly greater. Otherwise, there is no way of ‘disproving’ the Watson theory about Duffys Cut?
In a nutshell, if we have on the one hand sixty of the Watson names that are untraceable, and on the other hand our sixty names that are traceable but are substituted for sixty of ours that were untraceable, then that proves nothing and it bolsters the Watson case rather than weakens it. Ideally, if we had a position of trust with the Watsons, we would be keeping in mind the search protocol that they used. Then, using it as well as our own methods, for us to be drawing blanks (in whatever number of cases) would be perfectly OK. That is called replication and it is a cornerstone of research.
As far as the first issues that have been raised, and if this family is correctly identified as coming off the Prudence, I would assume that the matriarch of the family is RC. Otherwise why would the patriarch change religion from Presbyterian to RC? The travelling ahead assumption, which does make sense, is reasonable as the patriarch would probably wish to check out the lie of the land before sending for his family. The hope for us would then be that the patriarch would have appeared in an earlier shipping list on Ancestry?
I’m away now to baste that turkey!
Don MacFarlane
December 25, 2012 at 9:37 am
‘Elusive Dreams’, Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood.
Thinking of the Thompsons who travelled a thousand miles from Philadelphia to Wisconsin:
I followed you to Texas
I followed you to Utah
We didn’t find it there
So we moved on
To a small farm in Nebraska
To a gold mine in Alaska
We didn’t find it there
So we moved on
And now we’ve left Alaska
Because there was no goldmine
But this time only two of us move on
And now we just have each other
And a little memory to cling to
And still you won’t let me go on alone
I know you’re tired of following
My elusive dreams and schemes
For they’re only fleeting things
My elusive dreams
Eileen Breen
December 26, 2012 at 1:05 pm
From the Prudence on the Thompson family:
Isabella Thompson is the matriarch even though the ship manifest says she is a spinster. Perhaps her husband died or her husband came before her as you suggested and Iam Still looking for death records for her. I’m not sure who the father is of James (1814), John (1820), Rebecca (1818), Alexander (1822) and William (1816). There is a Matilda (1815) listed on the family tree but not on the manifest.
The eldest son William Henry Thompson (1813) d 22 Feb 1890 and is buried in St Paul’s RC Cemetery. His wife Frances was from France and is buried in St Mary’s RC Cemetery. Their children, Mary and Samuel, are buried in St Paul’s and I am still working on finding records for their other children.
William Henry and John were living next to each other and had farms in Morrison, Brown, WI. William farm was worth $800.00 and John’s farm was worth $1000.00. There are a few pictures and records. Isabella’s family matches several family trees on Ancestry and the ship manifest from the Prudence. The only records that I’m not sure are correct are the Canadian records.
Eileen Breen
December 27, 2012 at 2:11 am
The Thompson tree is growing. I don’t see a story here except one part of the family traveled from Wisconsin to Wyoming in a covered wagon for 1 month. Then another part of the family took an immigrant train to Wyoming and then the rest of the family came on a passenger train. William Thompson was a traveling salesman who had a cart pulled by donkeys. He sold Ward products, spices, and household products door to door. I think the family is catholic. I think there’s a few errors in other people’s trees. They have 2 sons (Alexander and John) emigrating to Canada but I found records for John in Wisconsin (if this is the correct family). All the trees seem to have the same names. I think it’s time to move on…
Eileen Breen
December 27, 2012 at 10:20 pm
“The opposite of history is not myth. The opposite of history is forgetfulness”
Don MacFarlane
December 28, 2012 at 9:40 am
Yes, and I had a complete blind spot with regards to history when I was at school. I couldn’t see the point of it and I wanted to do Geography instead! I ended up doing neither and when my Mum would not allow me to do technical subjects I did scientific subjects instead. There must be a moral in there somewhere?
BTW I have been missing this last few days as I have been helping a lady from Mississippi to find her Scottish Highland ancestors. We are still following that trail but I have found out something she did not know in the meanwhile. Three men on the other side of her family tree were colonels in Oliver Cromwell’s army in Ireland. Not does she not have the Irish blood in her family that she took some pride in, her ancestral family were colonists and land-robbers. Be careful what you look for, you may find it?
I will get back on track with the Waxwings project but I feel a bit hamstrung by my computer having broken down. I can do Google and other searches but that is the height of it. I would like to enter what we have on the spreadsheet and start analysing but that has to be on hold. I have almost finished with listing per parish the names of the waxwings in each. That should mean for one thing not continuously having to visit Griffiths and should make any triangulation easier.
maccarleo
December 27, 2012 at 4:48 am
I have been wondering about the word spinster. Could it simply mean woman or female? Could some of these women been with their husbands, not their brothers as we have assumed?
Don MacFarlane
December 27, 2012 at 8:37 am
I wondered the same thing, only I thought it might just mean the female equivalent of weaver. The woman of the house spun the flax on her spinning wheel (hence spinster) and the man as weaver wove it on his loom if he had one, otherwise the product of the woman’s labours got sent off to the bleach green. That was my theory.
Eileen Breen
December 27, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Spinster usually means an unmarried woman or maybe unchaparoned. I once saw it in a medical record and was appalled! I thought no one better call me that! In the case of the Thompson’s: Isabelle was older than this group of children. I thought she may be an aunt who was unmarried or the mother who was widowed or who was meeting her husband. I never found the husband in Philadelphia or Wisconsin. Several trees had an Edward Thompson and two sons living in Canada but this didn’t make sense. I found records for one son they said lived in Canada but records said he was in Wisconsin. Also the records had the wrong place of birth for the son. I’m still trying to figure out the sons in the family.
Eileen Breen
December 23, 2012 at 1:53 am
The Irish Times site has a great interactive program on emigration, ‘Irish Emigration: Welcome Emigration Isle. 200 Years Of Irish Emigrants Through The Lives Of Real Emigrants’. It covers the Who, What, When, Where and Why of emigration and the sights and sounds of emigration from the 1800s to the present day.
From the site: In 1841-51, 34% were literate but the Registrar General who recorded literacy rates during the census years in Ireland recorded a higher rate for males in 1841 at 67.7%.
87% of emigrants had families of more than eight children. The average age of emigration was 17-29. Emigrants were mostly farmers. in Munster, 290,970 people emigrated; in Leinster, 332,936; in Ulster, 171,287; and in Connaught, 245,624.
In 1788, transportation to Australia was for mostly minor crimes. A boy aged 12 was sent there for stealing a silver spoon. Woman were transported for stealing petty items. The average stay in Australia was 62 years. Over 60,000 emigrated to North America to participate in the American Revolution.
Famine in 1841 killed 400,000 in Ireland. Gold was found in Australia and the Irish in Australia encouraged relatives in Ireland to emigrate. As a result of over-population in western rural Ireland, the Poor Irish Law Boards funded 100,000 people to go to Australia as long as they were good workers. Prior to this the 10-15 pound ticket to Australia was cost-prohibitive.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 6:02 am
One wonders about the accuracy of these statistics. If you add them together, they claim that almost ninety percent of the emigrants had eight children before they were thirty years old? If these figures are correct you begin to understand why the likes of the infamous Trevelyan blamed the Irish for their own troubles by bringing such large families into the world when life was so precarious. Angus MacMillan, who contributed to ‘The Sea is Wide’, put it quite neatly about the Scottish Highlands) where circumstances were similar but on a lesser scale):
” As for the emigrants, even now and knowing the hardships and tragedies to which they were exposed, it is not possible to judge where advantage may have lain between an island where one family could lose ten of eleven children in childhood, or in risking all and paying the price”.
Eileen Breen
December 23, 2012 at 9:19 pm
I’m not sure I understand the large family concept except that I think that when they lost a child they felt a strong need to replace that loss with another child. Also to carry on the family name. It could have also been the custom in which clans had large families and shared their children with other members of the clan. That way the work on the farms could be done more easily. My own G-G grandmother had 10 children in 10 years. 6 died before adulthood. The RC Church played a major role in encouraging large families to continue spreading Catholicism all over the globe. I don’t think they thought about the implications of having a family they couldn’t provide for.
Eileen Breen
December 22, 2012 at 10:37 am
The question put forth by the Watson’s that the laborers were not educated bothered me.
The English Government in the early 1800s became concerned over the rise in Catholicism in Ireland. During the 1800s, education was seen as social emancipation for the Irish people during a time of political and social unrest in Ireland. Irish Catholics were subjected to Penal Laws which made education for the Irish Catholics illegal. Education was seen by the English Government as an agent for social control. The Establishment used censorship, taxation and had complete control over the printing and approval of which subjects were taught in the schools.
Education was seen as “raising expectations” and made one “receptive to radical subversive literature.” The Government felt that providing simple education would allow the English Government to have control over Ireland socially. Further it was seen as a cost-control measure to reduce crime and the cost of rehabilitation of adults and children in workhouses. The Church Of England used education to win over the Irish working class by limiting the use of the Irish language, taking away its customs and by controlling the subjects that were taught. This did not settle well with the majority of the Irish people. Hedge schools were opened.
Prior to hedge schools being established, the Government provided money for educational materials and school buildings. Private education during the Penal Law period was supported by the Irish chiefs until they were driven out of Ireland in the 17th century. Education for Catholics were illegal. School masters could be transported to Barbados if caught teaching Catholic children. Schools flourished during periods when the laws against Catholics were relaxed and closed during the height of the restrictions against Catholics. In 1812, the “Irish wanted an education for their children and were prepared to pay, even more than they could afford. The desire for education was a constant factor and universally held.” Further, Wakefield states “the people of Ireland are universally educated. I do not know of any part of Ireland so wild that its inhabitants are not anxious for the education for their children.”
In 1810 William Reed on his tour of Ireland speaks about Hedge Schools and the desire of Irish parents to educate their children, “A desire for education manifests itself, and very generally, among the lower orders of the people. I found several very humble seminaries called hedge schools. There are teachers, who become inmates of a cabin for several weeks, receive temporary lodging and a few potatoes to instruct juvenile inhabitants.” Teachers who were male received about 9 pounds per year and female teachers were paid 4 pounds per year. There were several accounts of people with little or no means who had an extra building on their property who would loan the instructor use of a building for the hedge school. The Government also tried to keep control of the educational system and would provide grants for education and provide school buildings.
In 1805, males received an average of 2.3 years of education. From 1846-51 males earned an average of 5 years of education and by 1867 the average education for males rose to 6.6 years. By 1830 there was a drive towards mass literacy. Private education brought education outside of the state and church run schools. About a quarter of the children of the working class were educated in this way. Over 6,000 teachers sought to become certified by 1849 as the Government sought to standardize the educational system. Churches continued to influence the subjects to be taught and the control over texts and reading materials for the masses.
The Registrar General who recorded literacy rates during census years concluded that in 1841 males were 67.3% literate and females were 51.1%. In 1851 the literacy rate increased to 69% for males and 54.8% for females. In 1861 males obtained a rating of 75.4% and for woman was 73.2%. Some factors that affected literacy rates were living in the rural areas in Northern Ireland where schools were not available. Often students were living more than ten miles from a school. The major factor was that Irish parents wanted their children not to learn just from books as the English did but to learn about all aspects of every day living. When subjects in daily living were introduced, the popularity of education flourished. By 1870 education was seen as a means to create an industrialized society. Laborers saw for the first time possibilities opened to them and new products and information were made available. In 1900, Ireland’s literacy rate reached 100%.
The drive towards literacy and the importance of education for Ireland’s children was influenced by the English Government’s greed for imperialism and social control over Ireland that attempted to devoid the Irish people of its history, customs and ability to govern its people. For Irish parents living in poverty in rural Northern Ireland in the early 1800s education was perceived as a means to social emancipation. Private citizens, teachers and parents risked their lives to raise expectations and opportunities for their “children”, ensuring that education would be provided to all children despite religious or financial background.
Don MacFarlane
December 22, 2012 at 11:21 am
The Catholic Church were not entirely blameless in perpetuating ignorance amongst the masses either. Witness Archbishop Troy, primate of Ireland, who condemned his flock and the many rebel priests for free-thinking at the time of the Act of Union. I would give a quote but my computer has crashed and I can’t access.
Eileen Breen
December 22, 2012 at 4:11 pm
The articles I read hinted that the churches had their hand in swaying opinions without actually pinpointing what the Catholic and Church of England said about education. I’ll have to check it out. It must have been difficult to stand up for what you believed in back then especially if you were a free thinking rebel clergy member. They felt for the common man but at the same time got heat from their churches and the Government.
BTW: I found several articles quickly on education in Northern Ireland and statistics proving the Irish Catholics had a high literacy rate despite all their hardships and they didn’t come to the US as illiterate men and woman. The Watson’s never researched this before putting their biases in their book. The book might have been more interesting and accurate if they had.
Londonderry
December 21, 2012 at 10:40 am
Don, I think the Watson interface might be interesting and educational. It might be that we learn from any pushback in particular areas……e.g. “the “professor” protesteth too much me thinks” from Lady Gertrude in Hamlet. I applaud your approach to gently engage and suggest you continue, if he responds.
Eileen Breen
December 18, 2012 at 9:43 pm
I found an interesting book on Ancestry. If you go to search bar and type in Pennsylvania; “Personal Reminiscences Of The Old Main Line”. It’s the original line of the Pennsylvania RR. It discusses all the social history of Philadelphia and PRR. It doesn’t mention Philip Duffy or the Cut as it takes place 1860-1879 but it was interesting to read the history.
From the book on the subject of ancestry: p 96-99: “We are indeed a melting pot’s product like a thick vegetable soup, in which the stock is Anglo-Saxon- the strength of the soup; but the rest of it is in the mixture that we see, taste and chew on.” From the Columbus dispatch: 33 million immigrants came to America. 1/4 (24.7%) of the immigrants came from the United Kingdom.
I put up a profile on Philip Duffy ( info from the book) and only 1 record I could find on Ancestry for the 1830 census in which the Duffy’s Philip, his wife, son Francis Xavier and daughter lived w/ 24 men and a child age 10-14 yr. Listed on the census: 1 male: age 5-9 (Duffy’s son), 1 male: age 10-14. Of the 24 men: 3 males in household age: 30-39. 1 female under age 5 (Duffy’s Dtr), 1 female age 20-29 ( Duffy’s wife) and 3 children under age of 20 ( Duffy’s 2 children and 1 other child), 24 free white men in total (10 of these are aliens, foreigner’s not naturalized).
Eileen Breen
December 20, 2012 at 2:03 pm
FFT: OnTwitter they have a set up where if a person is missing they can use Twitter and their social network to find missing people For ex they have siver alert for and elderly person and amber alert for children. I think there are different degrees of severity. I was thinking why couldn’t genealogy research clubs all over the world find the missing. Obviously we are looking for people that have died so it’s like a cold case. Maybe genealogical groups would be willing to help us do research for these folks. Who better that people who are interested in genealogy and would like to help others figure out theit questions. The difference between just writing on one site at a time like starting a thread on Ancestry or Roots is time consuming. I don’t think people look at these threads often. Also you have to go through a lot of threads and as Don said the quality of the information wasn’t there. We could put out invitations to genealogy groups asking for their assistance about who we are looking for and asking them to respond to us on Twitter. It may be faster and more wide spread and more instant gratification.
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm
Sounds good to me. I suppose Facebook is similar but allows more space, has a photo gallery etc? The wordpress that services this website can connect up to Facebook but I suspect it can’t differentiate between one page on the website and another. The idea of the waxwings page was for it to be tighter and less random, specialising in DuffysCut etc issues. My brother links up his wordpress site to Facebook and Twitter and gets several thousand hits per day compared to my several hundred at best. They rarely talk to him however so I’m not sure how worthwhile that is.
Eileen Breen
December 21, 2012 at 1:50 am
I suppose it doesn’t do any good if they won’t talk to us. Frncis Davis. Only a few choices for this name but I’m not sure if I have the same person. On the UK side later census records have Davis families near Letterkenny and Stranolar. In Philadelphia I found 1 in Philadelphia in 1850 in ward 3, not sure of the profession. He’s a farmer in Ireland so I don’t think he would be living in the city. The neighborhood is near Kensington and N. Liberties. 1880 there’s a Francis Davis in the poor house: Paralysis, in Philadelphia.
I’m not finding anything definitive for Samuel Adams, Robert Allen, William Balantine, Barr family and Brisland family. I’m trying to go through the family groups on the Prudence.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 8:45 am
I have been through the PA and OH censuses and have come up with these surnames (all with correct first names) and these surnames alone from our waxwings. These lists comprise therefore roughly half of our names which means the other names are not in the PA or OH censuses and may be further afield.
Mostly, there have been single results, several means two and where I have said ‘various’ that refers to no more than four possibles. There are no multiples of more than four viz ‘too many choices’. I have not studied this list yet but my immediate impression is that few if any of these townships are in Philadelphia. That would mean the City Directories would be of limited use, except that I have not tracked the census results.
The male names from the John Stamp are asterisked and if even one of these names is correct the Watson story, which depends on no survivors, falls apart. The names in asterisks belong to females who may well have changed names if they married. The logical next step for me is to bombard Google with these combos and see what comes up.
Pennsylvania Censuses
Aikin – East Whiteland
Balentine* – Brandywine
Barber* – Tredyffrin
Barr – Willistown or West Fallowfield
Bryan – Sadsbury
Buchanan – Honeybrook
Caldwell – East Bradford
Childs – Maria, N. Coventry
Cochrane – Highland
Cook – E Bradford or New Garden
Cowan – E Nottingham or Sadsbury
Craig – Kennett
Elliott* – Newlin
Ewing* – Warwick or East Nantmeal
Fleming – Lower Oxford or West Fallowfield
Forbes* – West Brandywine
Gilfillan – West Fallowfield
Greer – Highland or West Pikeland
Griffin – Phoenixville
Hastings – West Bradford
Henderson – West Chester
Higgins – Phoenixville
Hunter* – several
McConnell – West Nottingham
McCormick*- West Chester or West Whiteland
McGlone* – Phoenixville
McMichael – Schuylkill and Honeybrook
Patchell* – London Grove and Penn
Potter*- Easttown
Shields – West Chester and Westtown
Snodgrass – West Fallowfield
Woods – Penn
Ohio Censuses
Arthur – Greenfield
Barton – various
Bryan – various
Burns – W Cincinnati
Childs – Bayview, Jefferson or W Dayton
Creighton*- Pleasant, Hale or Portage
Culbertson – W Cincinnati, Madison or Troy
Cully* – W Cincinnati
Diven* – Cincinnati
Ellis – various
Fowler – Harrison
Gregory – Madison
Hastings* – various
Keys – Waynesville
Kyle – Sugarcreek or Henia
McGuire – various
Mahon* – Wyandot
Montgomery – W Cincinnati and Fremont
McBride – Crosby
McClay – Piqua
McConnell – various
McCormick* – various
McHenry – Xenia or Cincinnati
McMichael – Pleasant
McQuigg – Claridon
Neely – Hillsborough and Springfield
Nelson – Oxford and Cincinnati
Noble – various
Owens – various
Patchell*- Onelick
Peoples – various
Potter*- Trumbull
Riddle – Clermont
Ritchie – Cincinnati
Russell – various
Shaw – various
Sherwood – Oxford
Snodgrass – several
Southwell – Millcreek
Wilkinson – Madison
Woods – various
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 11:27 am
Higgins of Phoenixville PA
Here is an early capture from Google. I have no idea if it is the right Higgins family tree till I study it but it is not the original John Higgins. I only post it to illustrate the good work that is being done ‘out there’ in the ether.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mjhiggins/pa.htm
Eileen Breen
December 21, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Do you want to run these names w/ just Ohio residences and skip Philadelphia? I agree I wasn’t getting much for Philadelphia.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 5:13 pm
I think they just passed through Philly for other parts of PA, OH and beyond. ‘Farmers’ I can understand heading for where land coud be got, weavers I think would be more inclined to hang around PA?
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 9:20 am
I said in my mail to Frank Watson that I was merely keeping him posted – I ostensibly did not expect a reply as it was merely an update rather than anything else. This disclaimer was merely a camouflage on my part to cover any embarassment or defensiveness he might feel at being confronted. I specifically challenged him on two points only and I said there were no other points of divergence (not quite true). These points were about their suppositions that the workers were native Irish and poor at English speaking. Given that Lancaster County and its surrounds were largely founded by Ulster- Scots I stated that I doubted there was the degree of racism implied by them that would require such a hush-hush coverup. I also asked why there were only two Ulster-Scots names on the memorial.
My mailtracker records that the mail has not been opened yet, only that it has been delivered. I presume Frank has not read it yet or has binned it unopened. If he has opened it, he will know now that we may have in mind to publish our efforts at some point and that may put the cat amongst the pigeons in relation to their own book coming out next year I think.
Eileen Breen
December 17, 2012 at 2:05 am
I put in place names for Woods, Lecky, W. Doherty and Wilkinson
James Lecky: 1828: Tithe: 1828 Gortnamuck, Donegal, Donaghmore
Woods: Farmer, in Mt Washington, Virginia. Also in Pittsburg, PA in the 32nd Ward in 1872.
*I didn’t find James Lecky or William Doherty in Pittsburg but the last names were present in Pittsburg, PA.
1831: Donegal, Townland: Ballymacarry, Parish: Fahan Lower
Elizabeth Wilkinson: Associated W/ Henry McCauley. There’s a Mary and a Hannah McCauley also on the J.S. I wasn’t able to find the family yet. Wilkinson found 3 death dates in PA in West Philadelphia, age 79, age 28 in Philadelphia and married to a John Wilkinson in Petersburg, PA (She was a spinster on J.S.) so this last one seems unlikely.
Dolly McFadden: Listed as a laborer? I think when they entered Henry McCauley having his 2 boxes he brought his occupation was put on the next line on Dolly McFadden’s name. He could be listed as unmarried but there are 2 other McCauly’s listed. So I think Dolly McFadden is unmarried. Elizabeth Wilkinson is a spinster and Henry McFadden is a laborer w/ 2 children? Mary and Hannah.
Henry McCauley: City Directories in Philadelphia have a few Henry McCauley’s listed w/ 4 professions.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 7:53 pm
Name Census BMD Military Immigration Newspapers Stories
Alexander Barber 2,643 5,000 3,062 321 5,000+ 2,438
John Burns 2,781 5,000 5,000 1,666 5,000 5,000
John Craig 5,000 5,000 5,000 1,898 5,000 5,000
John Creighton 172 1,854 1,139 122 5,000 1,533
James Crilly 11 95 58 15 5,000 76
James Deviney 75 318 197 67 5,000 169
These numbers are using filters: Name, Year Of Birth, Place Of Birth, Death 1832 Malvern, PA, USA and Placed Lived: Philadelphia, PA, USA (All Search).
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 10:59 pm
I forgot to say: each page has 10 items per page for each category. The searches give alternate spellings. I think you can place an * on the first or last name or use a ( ) on a name for more specific searches if you have a Mac. I haven’t tried it yet. I read it in an Ancestry book. Just can’t use numbers near a name the filters don’t work. I’ll try to do more searches in the AM.
Don MacFarlane
December 14, 2012 at 9:06 am
In the course of completing the biogs for the ‘Country Folks’ page, I came across a number of Ancestry.com forums for a number of the names. I am not impressed with these forums, either because of the sparsity of responses in some instances or because they are too dispersed to be of much use. Hence, I remain a very committed non-fan of Ancestry for that and other reasons we have talked about.
I will not be directing any of my efforts towards Ancestry as I think they have made a bollocks of the whole thing (sorry, an Irish expression). I know you have come up with really good material already from that source but I think that particular well is dry now. I also commend your efforts which have been really original and imaginative in trying to force Ancestry to work. However, I think our small tight group can do much better through our individual efforts and I have some plans up my sleeve which I will pass on soon once they are more definite and crystallised.
In the meantime, continue with Ancestry if you please but count me out. I will not be renewing my subscription and I think their whole set-up is a sham and a shambles. I would not give them the light of day if they came to me for business – in a previous existence I commissioned client information systems so I know what to expect. I can tell you a story about two set-ups, who do remind me of Ancestry actually, who did come touting for business but got short shrift from me in particular!
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 6:57 am
I had the map in mind to do of where waxwings came from by townland and county and I was in the process of doing so when my computer crashed. It is still crashed and I will have to decide what to do about that as it is unlikely to be fixed (too old) or replaced, if at all, till after Christmas. I continue to post onto FTT with my ipad which is mostly what I have been doing up till now but it has its limitations. It doesn’t have Word or Excel as it is an Apple product.
When I get up and running again I will tackle a spreadsheet, not the existing DuffyTemp one but an existing one which I have had in storage for a long while based on Griffiths. I will add to it new material from the ship lists to PA from Derry for the period 1830-1834. From that I will analyse the patterns of evacuation from Townlands. My impression so far is that there is no pattern of evacuation from the townlands in general, it is all very patchy and sporadic, apart from these – Derry (Maghera, Faughanvale and Macosquin), with very little from East or South Derry; Tyrone (Castlederg and Strabane), with very little from East or South Tyrone; Donegal (Letterkenny, Muff and Lifford), with very little from West or South Donegal. In other words, the further you get away from the port of Derry, the less immigration there has been, it seems to be a local phenomenon. If I take a wider sample of ships the picture could build up more but I don’t intend to trouble the team with that search as that is something I will do on the side.
BTW Sorry if I have caused confusion but could we continue to use FTT for normal posting and reserve the Waxwings page for reference purposes only as that was what that page was set up to do.
I posted the Ferguson link as an example of a very systematic piece of research and to show the range of sources that was used but it has limited value for what we are doing. It is a tour-de-force of all the Fergusons in Ireland but that was the precise reason I left Ferguson off the list of waxwings – the name is all too common to be of use for our purposes. I had spotted Hunter Ferguson and I had contemplated using him, but mainly because of his first name which was very unusual. He might still be a good candidate for that reason.
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 7:24 am
Other Trends
American Civil War
Most of the Irish soldiers who fought in the war came from Gaelic-speaking counties. So much for the prejudice that Americans supposedly had against Gaelic-speaking Irishmen. They didn’t mind fighting alongside them?
Don MacFarlane
December 20, 2012 at 7:41 am
Plantation of Ireland
It is clear from this map, as if we didn’t know that already, that the majority of our waxwings were of Ulster-Scots (Scotch-Irish) descent.
Eileen Breen
December 20, 2012 at 1:23 pm
Could Hunter be a family name? Maybe his mother’s maiden name? In the Civil War there were over 38 regiments on both sides that had the word Irish in it. It may be interesting If we looked up some of the regiments to see where they came from? The 69th NY was one of the most noted. The work your doing on the trends for migration is very interesting. I think it adds another dimension to the story as well as everyone’s research contributions. Good luck w/ the computer. I had one crashed last year. I’m going to try to work at adding the information from the waxwing page to their profiles on Ancestry. If there is anything you need to add to your spreadsheets and can’t because your using the ipod let me know.
Eileen Breen
December 16, 2012 at 12:31 am
Check out on ancestry: Irish History Timeline Family Tree. I made you all contributors. We can add pictures, stories etc on the timeline. Feel free to add anything.
Eileen Breen
December 16, 2012 at 1:09 pm
I saw the names of the towns you added to the DuffyTemp page. I can add these to their profiles, maybe we’ll get a hit off these. I was thinking we should expand our search from Philadelphia outward. If many of those who were on the ships were Presbyterian perhaps they followed the church. I read they wanted small farms so the Pittsburg, PA area and Ohio countryside may be be places to look. Pittsburg is the second place the church expanded to after Philadelphia. I’ll try to look up the churches and maybe there are records to be found.
Don MacFarlane
December 16, 2012 at 1:35 pm
I am going to have a look at what ships left with Irish passengers from the North West of England, Scotland and Southern Ireland for the period 1830-1834 to see if I can pick up on more possible chains of emigration.
Don MacFarlane
December 19, 2012 at 9:37 am
Derry Census 1831
The following names have direct hits on the census
Gregory – Meeting House Lane in Coleraine or Gills in Macosquin
McGlone – Lissan
Sherwood – East Wall in Derry City
The following are mainly from Faughanvale and Cumber – Cowan, Davis, Gilfillan, Owens
The following are mainly from Loughinsholin – Diamond, McQuillan, Hemphill
The following are not on the census – Brisland, Brigham
The following are not on but have names that are similar
Carrigan (Carrican from Muff Village, otherwise known as Eglinton) but the name is common in other counties including Donegal.
Childs (Chilles)
McClannon (McClainan from Ballyleagry in Balteagh)
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 1:29 pm
I think I have a different angle to test which Parishes lost the most emigrants during tnat summer of 1832. So starting with Tyrone, waxwing names prevalent (50% of total names) there were:
Ardstraw – Aiken, Arthur, Baird, Barber, Barton, Bredin, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochran, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Devany, Doak, Donaghy, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Gregory, Grier, Hemphill, Henderson, Hunter, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leitch, Lemon, Levingston, Long, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McConamy, McCormick, McFadden, McHugh, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McKenny, McKnight, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhillimy, McQuade, McRory, McSwine, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Patrick, Polock, Porter, Quigley, Read, Russell, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Sproule, Woods.
I will check the rest of the parishes but I kind of know already none will come anywhere close.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 1:44 pm
Conwal Parish in Donegal
Waxwing Surnames (40% of Total)
Aikin, Baird, Barr, Boal, Buchanan, Byrnes, Craig, Davis, Deery, Dermod, Devanney, Diven, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Herold, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, Long, Magee, McClay, McConnell, McCormack, McElhiney, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHenry, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McRory, McSwine, McIlwaine, Neally, Nee, Nelson, Owen, Peoples, Porter, Read, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheil, Speer, Sproule, Teas, Wilkinson, Wood.
Don MacFarlane
December 21, 2012 at 11:17 pm
Clonleigh (Donegal) Waxwing Surnames (20%)
Allison, Bryan, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Henderson, Hood, Keys, Lecky, Leech, McAleer, McBride, McBrierty, McClay, McFadden, McGettigan, McGourley, McHugh, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Shiels, Slevin, Weir, Wilkie.
Don MacFarlane
December 22, 2012 at 10:22 am
Remaining Donegal Parishes
The percentages after the parishes refer to the percentage of the waxwing names which were to be found in that parish. Conwal with 40% has the biggest percentage of waxwing names, followed by Aughnish with 25%.
Names which have spilt over to Donegal from Tyrone or Derry and which from the ship manifests are not Donegal but Tyrone or Derry waxwings are: Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barr, Birney, Brisland, Brigham, Burns, Byrnes, Carrigan, Cowan, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Deanny, Diamond, Donaghy, Ellis, Forbes, Gilfillan, Gregory, Griffin, Hay, Hemphill, Keys, Livingstone, Leitch, Long, Maguire, McConnell, McGonigle, McKenny, McRory, Owens, Patrick, Shaw, Speer.
From that, the percentages of waxwing names indigenous in Donegal should be adjusted upwards by a third. In the case of Aughnish for example the percentage of possible waxwing names in that parish will be closer to 35%, not 25%, and a similar adjustment can be made for the rest of the parishes. This inclusion of non-Donegal names might seem to be causing unnecessary confusion but it is presented this way to give some feel for the internal migration that took place in Ulster which was quite apart from the emigration to places abroad.
Donegal names off the John Stamp were – Allison, Craig, Creighton, Diver, Doak, Elliott, Fullerton, Hastings, Hunter, Montgomery, McCahill, McGettigan, McGhee, McGourley, McIlhenny, McKinney, Patchill, Quigley, Rush, Ruddy, Shannon.
1. Aghanunshin (10%) – Baird, Berny, Buchanan, Davis, Elliott, Greer, Hood, McGettigan, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Noble, Reid, Russell, Speer, Wood, Wylie.
2. All Saints (20%) – Allison, Arthur (A), Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell (A), Cochrane (A), Cooke (A), Craig, Darmond, Deary, Divanny, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Griffin, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Kerrigan, Long, Magee, Maguire, McBride, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McNaught, McQuaid, McCormack, Noble, Peoples, Shannon, Sheil, Woods
3. Aughnish (25%) – Aiken, Allison, Birney, Brien (A), Buchanan, Caldwell, Cooke, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Fleming, Fullerton, Gibbons, Griffin, Hay, Henderson, Hunter, Kyle, Lackie, McBride, McConnell, McCormick, McFadden, McFate, McGettigan, McGhee, McIlwaine, McKenny, McMenamin, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheils, Sproule, Tays, Wood
4. Burt (15%) – Bredin, Byrne, Cochran, Dermott, Elder, Fleming, Hay, Hunter, Long, Magee, McBride, McConnell, McConomy, McCormick, McGonigle, McKenny, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McNutt, McSwine, Nealy, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Shiel, Wilkinson, Wyley.
5. Clonca (10%) – Baird, Davis, Dearmod (A), Deery, Devanny, Diver, Elder, Elliott, Fleming, McGonigle, McGuire, McIlhenny, McRory, Nelson, Quigley, Ruddy, Shiels.
6. Clondahorky (15%) – Baird, Barr, Grier, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Hunter, Mahon, McBride, McFadden, McGee, McIlhenny, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Shiels, Weir, Wilkinson, Woods.
7. Clondavaddog (10%) – Brien, Buchanan, Culbertson (A), Dermod, Gibbons, Griffin, Hay, Magee, McBride, McElhinny, McGettigan, McIlwaine, McSwine, Peoples, Reid, Sheil.
8. Clonleigh (20%) – Allison, Bryan, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Henderson, Hood, Keys, Lecky, Leech, McAleer, McBride, McBrierty, McClay, McFadden, McGettigan, McGourley, McHugh, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Shiels, Slevin, Weir, Wilkie.
9.Clonmany (7%) – Brisland, Diver, Herald, Hood, Magrory, McGonigle, McIlhenny, McKenny, Montgomery, Nelso, Quigley, Sheil.
10. Convoy (20%) – Byrne, Caldwell, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Devany, Ellison, Ewing, Grier, Henderson, Kerrigan, Knee, Leckey, Levingston, McBride, McCormack, McFadden, McGee, McGuire, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Neely, Reid, Russell, Shiels, Slevin, Snodgrass, Spear, Sproule, Woods.
11. Conwal (40%) – Aikin, Baird, Barr, Boal, Buchanan, Byrnes, Craig, Davis, Deery, Dermod, Devanney, Diven, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Herold, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, Long, Magee, McClay, McConnell, McCormack, McElhiney, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHenry, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McRory, McSwine, McIlwaine, Neally, Nee, Nelson, Owen, Peoples, Porter, Read, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheil, Speer, Sproule, Teas, Wilkinson, Wood.
12. Culdaff (10%) – Barr, Caldwell, Craig, Crawford, Diarmod, Fleming, Henderson, Long, Mahon, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, McKenny, McQuade, Nelson, Quigley, Sheils, Woods.
13. Desertegney (2%) – Barr, Fullerton, Magrory, McKenny.
14. Donagh (7%) – Barr, Bresland, Elder, Ferguson, Gibbins, Herald, McDonagh, McGonigle, McIlhenny, McKenny, McRory, Nelson, Shiels.
15. Donaghmore (30%) – Barr, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlin, Cochran, Crawford, Davis, Deveny, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Gibbons, Gregory, Grier, Griffith, Henderson, Hunter, Leckey, Maguire, McBride, McCormack, McFadden, McGee, McHugh, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McNaught, McSwine, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Russell, Shiels, Slevin, Snodgrass, Sproule, Woods.
16. Donegal (20%) – Brigham, Buchanan, Byrne, Cowen, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Elliott, Greer, Gregory, Griffith, Henderson, Higgins, Mahon, McCormack, McFadden, McGettigan, McHugh, McIlhenny, McNamee, McQuaid, McSwine, Montgomery, Quigley, Richie, Shiels, Slevin, Weir (JS 6).
17. Drumhome (20%) – Barber, Bredin, Buchanan, Byrne, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Devany, Diver, Edgar, Elliott, Ellis, Gibbons, Gregory, Griffith, Henderson, Kerrigan, Magee, Maguire, McBride, McClay, McCormack, McFadden, McIlhenny, McQuaid, McRory, Montgomery, Nelson, Reid.
18. Fahan Lower (10%) – Barr, Breesland, Cochrane, Cooke, Donaghy, Elliott, Fullerton, Hunter, Keays, Levingston, McFadden, McGonigle, McGrory, McKenny, Nelson, Quigley
19. Fahan Upper (10%) – Barr, Cochran, Davis, Devanny, Elder, Ferguson, Henderson, McClea, McCormack, McIlhenny, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Nicholl, Quigley, Ruddy, Shaw, Sheil, Wyley.
20. Gartan (5%) – Fleming, McCormack, McIlhenny, Nee, Neely, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Skipton.
21. Glencolumbkille (7%) – Buchanan, Byrne, Craig, Crawford, Diver, Griffith, Higgins, McBrierty, McGonagle, McGuire, McHugh, McNelis
22. Inch (5%)- Craig, Dermott, Ewing, Fleming, Griffin, McCormack, McGrory, McSwyne
23. Innishkeel (15%) – Aril, Byrne, Brisland, Carlon, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Devany, Devir, Elliott, Griffin, Long, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McGee, McGuire, McHugh, McIlhenny, McManamin, McNalis, McSwine, Quigley, Richey, Sproule.
24. Innishmacsaint (15%) – Brien, Brislane, Byrne, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyles, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCormack, McGonigle, McGuire, McKenny, Montgomery, Noble, Reid, Ruddy, Shaw, Shiel, Slevin.
25. Inver (20%) – Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Cowan, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Elliott, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Kerrigan, Kyle, Long, Maguire, McBrierty, McCahill, McCormick, McDonagh, McFadden, McGettigan, McGrory, McHugh, McMonigle, Montgomery, Reid, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Slevin (JS 6)
26. Kilbarron (20%) – Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Culbertson, Davis, Deery, Devanny, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Gibbons, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Kerrigan, Keys, Maguire, McBrerety, McBride, McCormack, McGettigan, McGhee, McGonigle, McMenamin, McNelis, Montgomery, Nelson, Patchell, Quigley, Shiels, Slevin.
27. Kilcar (5%) – Byrne, Mahon, McBrearty, McBride, McFadden, McGonigle, McBride, McHugh, Ryan.
28. Killaghtee (15%) – Barr, Buchanan, Byrne, Cooke, Crawford, Deery, Ellison, Ewing, Gibbons, Griffin, Hastings, Henderson, Higgins, Long, Maglone, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCahill, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHugh, Richey, Shannon, Shaw.
29. Killea (12%) – Arthur, Baird, Buchanan, Byrne, Craig, Elliott, Ferguson, Gilfellan, Hunter, Kernahan, Lecky, McBrearty, McDonagh, McIlwaine, McNutt, Montgomery, Rankin, Woods.
30. Killybegs Lower (8%) – Bresland, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Elliott, Griffin, Hunter, Long, McBride, McConnell, McGuire, McHugh, Quigley, Richey.
31. Killybegs Upper (10%) – Bresland, Byrne, Crawford, Davis, Devanny, Long, McBrearty, McCahill, McCormack, McFadden, McGonigle, McGuire, McHugh, McIlwaine, McRory, Shannon.
32. Killygarvan (10%) – Bryan, Cochran, Gibbons, Grier, Griffin, Henderson, Kyle, McBride, McGhee, McGonigle, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nelson, Quigley.
33. Killymard (10%) – Brigham, Byrne, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Dermott, Ellis, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Long, McGee, McGettigan, McGrory, McHugh, Montgomery, Richey, Slevin.
34. Kilmacrenan (20%) – Bresland, Brien, Buchanan, Crawford, Devany, Elder, Elliott, Gibbons, Hastings, Hay, Higgins, Hood, Kyle, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McDonagh, McElhinny, McElwain, McFadden, McFate, McGhee, McGettigan, McHugh, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nelson, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Sheil.
35. Kilteevogue (10%) – Byrne, Devany, Ferguson, Henderson, McBrerety, McBride, McCahill, McCormack, McHugh, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McSwyne, Slevin.
36. Leck (20%) – Allison, Baird, Boale, Davis, Devany, Elliott, Ewing, Gregg, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, McConnell, McCormack, McFadden, McGuire, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nee, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Wilkinson, Wyley.
37. Lettermacaward (8%) – Brislan, Byrne, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, McBride, McGee, McGettigan, McGuire, McHugh, McIlhenny, Russell.
38. Mevagh (15%) – Barr, Barton (A), Brislane, Crawford, Devanny, Devir, Greer, Hay, Hunter, McBride, McConnell, McFadden, McGettigan, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNutt, McFadden, McBride, Peoples, Sheil, Speer, Wilkinson.
39. Mintiaghs of Inch – Barr, Bresland
40. Moville Lower (15%) – Baird, Barr, Carlan, Cooke, Crawford, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Ellis, Hastings, Hemphill, Henderson, Herold, Kerrigan, McConnell, McCormack, McDonagh, McGee, McGonigle, McHenry, McKenny, McSwine, Montgomery, Peebles, Sproule.
41. Moville Upper (15%) – Alleson, Baird, Barr, Bredin, Brislan, Burns, Carlin, Cochran, Cooke, Crawford, Dermott, Ewin, Ferguson, Hay, Hemphill, Henderson, Kerrigan, McDonagh, McGee, McGonigle, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Peebles, Quigley, Shiels, woods.
42. Muff (15%) – Allison, Barber, Barr, Bresland, Cochrane, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Elder, Ewing, Ferguson, Gibbons, Gilfillan, Greer, Long, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Quigley, Sheils, Wylie.
43. Raphoe (8%) – Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Henderson, McBride, McCormack, McMenamin, McNaught, Nelis, Noble, Russell.
44. Raymoghy (18%) – Allison, Arthur, Barr, Bresland, Crawford, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Gilfillan, Henderson, Hood, Hunter, Lecky, Mahon, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McFadden, McHugh, McIlwaine, Montgomery, Peoples, Quigley, Shannon, Shiels.
45. Raymunterdoney – Ferguson, Greer, Mahon, McBride, McFadden, McGee.
46. Taughboyne (10%) – Arthur, Cochrane, Cowan, Craig, Devanny, Donaghy, Elliott, Greer, McNaught, Neilly, Nicholl, Porter, Rusk, Speer, Woods.
47. Templecarn (15%) – Aikens, Caldwell, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Elliott, Ellis, Henderson, Kyle, Magrory, Maguire, McIlwaine, McHugh, McMenamin, McRory, Nelson, Noble,
Owens, Peebles, Reid, Woods.
48. Templecrone (8%) – Crawford, Devanny, Ellis, McBride, McCormick, McFadden, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, McMenamin, McNelis, Quigley, Slevin, Sproule.
49. Tullaghobegley – Davis, Devir
50. Tullyfern (25%) – Aikin, Birney, Buchanan, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Elliott, Ellis, Ewing, Ferguson, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Hay, Hunter, Kerrigan, Kyle, McBride, McClay, McConnell, McElhinny, McFadden, McGettigan, McGrory, McIlwain, McNutt, McSwyne, Montgomery, Peoples, Quigley, Reid, Richey, Russell, Reid, Shannon, Snodgrass, Sproule.
51. Tullyfern (12%) – Barr, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Grier, Griffin, Henderson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leech, McCormack, McHugh, McNaught, Nelson, Sproule, Rush.
52. Urney – Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leech, McCormack, McHugh, McNaught, Nelson, Rush, Russell, Sproule.
Commentary:
A definite picture may emerge which, coupled with triangulation and mapping, might provide evidence of local recruiting activity prior to the sailing. An initial eyeball test, however, and subject to later statistical analysis, does not suggest any prior recruiting in Ireland of the John Stamp crew.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 11:11 am
Donegal Recruitment for Ship Prudence?
Names – Buchanan, Greer, Kernahan, Davis, Kyle, Lecky, McDonagh, Peoples, Weir, Woods, Barr, Kernaghan
Barr – very spread out.
Buchanan – 1 2 3 7 8 11 15 16 17 25 26 28 30 34 43 50 51 52
Greer – 1 6 8 10 11 15 16 32 38 42 46 50 51 52
Kernahan – 29
Lecky – 15 36 43 44 52
Peoples – 2 6 11 20 34 36 38 44 49 50
Davis – very spread out
Kyle – 3 25 47
Weir – 16 24 33
Woods – 2 6 10 12 15 41 43 46 47
McDonagh – 14 25 34 40 41 43
Numbers are codes for ‘Remaining Donegal Parishes’, (see post on 22nd Dec 2012). The clusters do not on the surface indicate wholesale recruitment by the Prudence for these names. Reference to ship’s manifest indicates that the Greers and Barrs travelled as a family or couple and the Buchanans and Kernahans came as siblings so they can all be removed from the list. Woods and Lecky travelled together and both may have come from Donaghmore (15) or Raphoe (43). Or they may have come from Killea along with McDonagh. All of these places are in East Raphoe barony and a short distance from each other adjoining Tyrone.
More work needs to be done yet to explore these origins and this is ongoing. These details would ordinarily be on the DuffyTemp Excel spreadsheet but my computer has broken down and forbearance is required.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Tyrone Parishes of Waxwings
Tyrone Waxwings: Baird (S), Ballantine (S), Barber (S), Barr (P), Birney (P), Burns (S), Byrnes (S), Crawford (P), Cully (S), Deery (P), Devanny (S), Donaghy (S), Forbes (S), Foster (S), Hay (P), Keys (P), Livingstone (S), Leitch (P), Lemon (S), Long (S), Maguire (S), McAdam (S), McAnaney (S), McCanny (S), McConnell (S), McRory (S), McGlashan (S), McGonigle (S), McKinney (S), McMichael (S), Patrick (P), Potter (S), Rice (S), Scallin (S), Shaw (S), Speer (S), McAnamy.
John Stamp (S); Prudence (P); Asia (A); Ontario (O)
1. Aghaloo (20%) – Barber, Barr, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Donaghey, Ellis, Ferguson, Fleming, Foster, Henderson, Higgins, Keys, Kyle, Levingston, McAdam, McConnell, McGee, McGlone, McHugh, McKenny, McMichael, McQuade, Montgomery, Nelis, Nelson, Potter, Reid, Shannon, Sheils, Slevin, Stringer, Woods, Wyley. Possible waxwings = 11.
2. Aghalurcher – Birney, Caldwell, Cowan, McGuire, McRory, Montgomery, Noble, Woods.
3. Arboe (15%)- Ballantine, Burns, Cowan, Creighton, Donaghy, Eldher, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Lemmon, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, Meenagh, Reid, Rice, Ryan, Shaw, Sheals, Taylor, Wyley. Possible waxwings – 10.
4. Ardstraw (50%) – Aiken, Arthur, Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barton, Bredin, Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlan, Carrigan, Cochran, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Devany, Doake, Donaghy, Ellison, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Gregory, Grier, Hemphill, Henderson, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Keys, Kyle, Leitch, Lemon, Levingston, Long, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCanny, McConnell, McCormick, McFadden, McHugh, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhelimy, McQuaid, McRory, McSwine, McAnaney, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Patrick, Quigley, Reid, Riddall, Rush, Russell, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Sproule, Stevenson, Taylor, Woods. Possible waxwings = 24
5. Artrea (6%) – Burns, Caldwell, Cooke, Crawford, Ferguson, Foster, Greer, McDonagh, Spears, Weir.
6. Ballinderry – Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Greer, Potter, Ryan.
7. Ballyclog (12%) – Brien, Buchanan, Byrne, Davis, Donaghy, Elder, Ellison, Ferguson, Henderson, Hunter, Levingston, McBride, McConnell, McFadden, McMenamin, McRory, Nelson, Nicholl, Russell, Wyley.
8. Bodoney Lower (20%) – Ballantine, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Crawford, Culberton, Davis, Deery, Donaghy, Ellis, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hunter, Leech, Mahon, McAleer, McAneny, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McHugh, McIlwaine, McMenamin, McMichael, McNamee, McPhilimy, McRory, Montgomery, Neally, Nicholl, Spear, Wilkinson.
9. Bodoney Upper (15%) – Ballantine, Barton, Byrne, Crawford, Ferguson, Fullerton, Griffin, Hay, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McElwain, McEneny, McNamee, McQuade, Nels, Noble, Patrick, Reid, Woods.
10. Camus (30%) – Aiken, Baird, Barber, Barr, Beirne, Bredin, Buchanan, Burns, Carlin, Cowan, Craig, Culbertson, Davis, Dearmod, Devany, Elliott, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Leech, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McConnamee, McCormack, McIlhenny, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McRory, McSwyne, Nelson, Nicholl, Noble, Quigley, Read, Riddall, Shiel, Snodgrass, Sproule.
11. Cappagh (10%) – Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Donaghy, Edgar, Ellis, Fleming, Greer, Hunter, Livingstone, Mcleer, McBride, McRmack, McKenny, McNamee, McQuade, Reid, Sheils.
12. Carnteel (20%) – Aiken, Ballantine, Buchanan, Caldwell, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Fleming, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Kernihan, Kyle, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McIlwaine, McNamee, McQuade, Montgomery, Neilly, Nelson, Potter, Reid, Riddall, Russell, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Taylor.
13. Clogher (33%) – Aikens, Arthur, Barr, Barton, Birney, Blair, Bredin, Bryan, Buchanan, Caldwell, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Donaghy, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Henderson, Hunter, Kernahan, Keys, Kyle, Long, McNamee, McRory, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McConnell, McCormack, McGlone, McKenny, McNelis, McQuade, Montgomery, Neilly, Nelson, Nicholl, Owens, Reid, Rice, Richey, Rush, Russell, Shannon, Shiels, Skelton, Slevin, Taylor, Weir, Woods.
14. Clogherny (20%) – Ballantine, Barr, Barton, Bredin, Byrne, Cochrane, Cooke, Crawford, Culbertson, Donaghy, Ellison, Forbes, Greer, Kyle, Macrory, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCormack, McHugh, McNamee, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Neally, Nicholl, Noble, Owens, Patrick, Read, Rice, Ritchie, Rush, Shiels, Sproule, Stevenson.
15. Clonfeacle (25%) – Aiken, Barber, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Long, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McConnell, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McQuade, Meenagh, Nelson, Patrick, Peebles, Reid, Ryan, Shannon, Sheil, Skelton, Sterling, Stevenson, Stringer, Taylor, Weir, Wiley, Wilkinson, Woods.
16. Clonoe (8%) – Arthur, Burns, Donaghy, Gibbons, Higgins, Hunter, Magrory, Magee, McConomy, McCormack, McQuade, McCrory, Montgomery, Nicholl, Reid, Russell, Ryan, Woods.
17. Derryloran (25%) – Ballantine, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Fleming, Greer, Griffin, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Lecky, Leitch, McRory, McGee, McAleer, McBride, McConamy, McConnell, McCormack, McElwain, McFadden, McGlone, McGourley, McNamee, McQuade, Nelson, Owens, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Ridell, Russell, Shaw, Stirling, Taylor, Weir.
18. Desertcreat – Baird, Ballantine, Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Burns, Craig, Devanney, Donaghy, Ferguson, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Magee, Maguire, McAdam, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McConomy, McCormack, McGlone, McQuaid, McRory, McShane, Reid, Russell, Woods.
19. Donacavey – Arthur, Baird, Barr, Bredin, Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Cooke, Crawford, Culbertson, Donaghy, Elliott, Ewing, Fleming, Griffin, Henderson, Maguire, McAleer, McCormack, McCrory, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhilemy, Nelis, Noble, Owens, Potter, Reid, Sheils, Skelton, Slavin, Sproule, Taylor, Weir.
20. Donaghedy – Aiken, Baird, Barr, Bresland, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Devanny, Diarmod, Donaghy, Edgar, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Forbes, Griffin, Hennderson, Hunter, Kerrigan, Leech, Levingston, Long, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McConamy, McConnell, McGettigan, McGonigle, McKenny, McMenamin, McPhelimy, McRory, McShane, Neely, Nelson, Patrick, Quigley, Rice, Richey, Shaw, Shiels, Slevin.
21. Donaghenry – Birney, Byrne, Caldwell, Crawford, Davis, Donaghy, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ferguson, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Keys, Lemon, Maguire, McAdam, McBride, McConammee, McConnell, McElwaine, McGee, McQuade, McRory, McGlone, McShane, Nicholl, Noble, Reed, Riddle, Rush, Riddle, Shields, Speer, Weir.
22. Donaghmore – Arthur, Barton, Birney, Byrne, Caldwell, Craig, Creighton, Davis, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Fullerton, Higgins, Hood, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McCormack, McGlone, McHugh, McMamee, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Reid, Richie, Rush, Shaw, Sheil, Taylor, Wylie, Woods.
23. Dromore – Arthur, Buchanan, Crawford, Edgar, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Fleming, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCanny, McConnell, McCormick, McDonagh, McEnaney, McFadden, McGee, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McQuade, Noble, Owens, Reed, Russell, Shannon, Slevin, Sproule, Wiley, Woods.
24. Drumglass – Arthur, Barton, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Davis, Divenny, Donaghy, Ellis, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Henderson, Hood, Leckey, McQuade, MacRory, McShane, Magee, Mahon, McBride, McConnell, McGlone, Maguire, McHugh, Montgomery, Nelis, Nelaon, Noble, Peebles, Slevin, Speer, Taylor, Wyley.
25. Drumragh – Aiken, Allison, Arthur, Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barton, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlan, Cochran, Cooke, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Delany, Doak, Donaghy, Elliott, Ellis, Fergey, Ferguson, Fleming, Forbes, Fullerton, Gibbons, Greer, Henderson, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Kyle, Lemmon, McRory, McGee, Mahon, McAdam, McAleer, McAnally, McAnaney, McBride, McClay, McConnell, McCormick, McDonagh, McFadden, McRory, McHugh, McKenny, McNaught, McPhilemy, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Nelson, Nicholl, Patrick, Rice, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils,
Slevin, Sproule, Taylor.
26. Errigal Keerogue – Buchanan, Burns, Cochrane, Crawford, Deery, Donaghy, Ewing, Ferguson, Greer, Gregory, Henderson, Higgins, Kyle, Macrory, McNelis, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McIlhenny, McGlone, McNamee, McQuaid, Montgomery, Neally, Reade, Rice, Riddall, Rice, Ryan, Sheil, Slevin, Spear, Stringer, Woods.
27. Errigal Trough – Fleming, Kyles, McQuade.
28. Kildress – Arthur, Burns, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Fullerton, Greer, McAleer, McBride, McCormack, McNamee, Montgomery, Potter, Reid, Taylor.
29. Killeeshill – Caldwell, Culbert, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Griffin, Henderson, McBride, McConnell, McElhinney, McGee, Macrory, MacNamee, McQuaid, Montgomery, Potter, Reid, Ryan, Shannon, Shiells, Woods.
30. Killyman – Cochran, Cowan, Creighton, Donaghy, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Henderson, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McGlone, McNamee, McQuade, McShane, Montgpmery, Nelson, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Russell, Ryan, Shaw, Skelton, Wiley, Woods.
31. Kilskeery – Cowan, Hunter, Maguire, Magee, McCormick, McQuaid, Montgomery, Reed.
32. Learmount – Donaghy
33. Leckpatrick – Arthur, Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Burns, Caldwell, Carlin, Cochrane, Davis, Devenny, Elliott, Ells, Ewing, Forbes, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Magee, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCormick, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, Mcguire, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McShane, Nicholl, Slevin, Weir, Woods.
34. Lissan – Ballantine, Brien, Donaghy, Fleming, Henderson, McAleer, McBride, McCrory, McGlone, McKenny, McNamee, Patrick, Reid, Weir, Wiley, Wilkinson.
35. Longfield East – Allison, Barr, Barton, Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Donaghy, Davis, Livingston, Magee, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McGuire, McHugh, McPhelimy, McQuade, McRory, quigley, Reid, Russell, Sproule, Woods.
36. Longfield West – Barr, Barton, Breslan, Buchana, Caldwell, Cook, Crawford, Creighton, Devanny, Hemphill, Higgins, Hunter, Keys, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McCormack, McMenamin, McPhelimy, McQuaid, Montgomery, Nelson, Quigley, Reid, Rush, Russell, Scallin, Shannon, Speers, Sproule, Woods.
37. Pomeroy – Aikin, Arthur, Barber, Buchanan, Ellis, Fleming, Foster, Magee, McAleer, McRory, McMenamin,McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Noble, Potter, Reid, Ruddy, Sheils, Wiley, Wilkinson, Woods.
38. Tamlaght – Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Ferguson, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Lamon, Leech, Long, Magee, McShane, Montgomer, Owens, Reid, Shaw, Spears, Weir, Wilkinson.
39. Termanomongan – Breslan, Byrne, caldwell, Carlin, Craig, Crawford, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Foster, Gibbons, Hemphill, Zhenderson, Hunter, Kyle, Lecky, Levingston, Magee, McCormack, McHugh, McIlhenny, McRory, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhilimy,
Rush, Heils, Snodgrass, Spears, Dproule.
40. Termonmaguirk – Buchanan, Cochran, Crawford, Avis, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Higgins, Kle, Levingston, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McDonagh, McGlone, McGuire, McNamee, McQuillan,McRory, Minagh, Nelson, Owens, Patrick, Ryan, Shiels, Taylor, Woods.
41. Tullyniskan – Bryan, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Elliott, Greer, Henderson, McConomy, McGlone, McGuire, McMenamin, McRory, Montgomery, Reid, Ruddy, Sheil, Skelton, Taylor, Weir, Woods.
42. Urney – Arthur, Baird, Barr, Beirne, Buchanan, Burns, Caldwell, Carland, Cowan, Craig, Deery, Donaghy, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Gibbin, Hay, Hemphill, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Long, Magee, McAdam, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McCormack, McGonigle, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhelimy, McRory, McShane, McSwine, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Owens, Quigley, Reid, Rush, Russell, Shaonnon, Speer, Sproule, Taylor, Woods.
Commentary So Far
Almost all of the Ardstraw emigrants that Summer, whatever number that there were, left on the John Stamp. The few that did not may have left on the Prudence. From these lists, the names that appear infrequently or not at all are: Barber, Birney, Blackwell, Boal, Brisland, Brigham, Childs, Culbertson, Cully, Diermott, Diven, Doak, Fergie, Foster, Fowler, Carland, Gilfillan, Gregory, Harold, Hastings, Hay, McAnaney, McDonagh, McFeat, McHenry, McMichael, McQuigg, Menagh, Nee, Potter, Risk, Ruddy, Scallin, Sherwood, Skelton, Sterling. That adds up to just over 20% of the total and these are super-waxwings. These names if spotted are much more likely to be the real deal and not cases of mistaken identity. The downside is that because they are rarer they are less likely to be spotted.
Don MacFarlane
December 23, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Donegal Waxwings by Ship
Allison (S), Buchanan (P), Carlin (O), Craig (S), Creighton (S), Diven (S), Doak (S), Elliott (S), Ewing (S), Ferguson (O), Fullerton (S), Gibbons (O), Greer (P), Harrold (O), Hastings (O), Hunter (S), Kernahan (P), Kyle (P), Lecky (P), Montgomery (S), McBrearty (O), McBride (O), McCahill (S), McClay (O), McDonagh (P), McGettigan (S), McGhee (S), McGourley (S), McIlhenny (S), McIlwaine (S), McMenamin (O), McPhelimy (P), McShane (O), Nee (O), Nelson (O), Patchell (S), Peoples (P), Quigley (S), Rush (S), Ruddy (S), Ryan (O), Shannon (S), Skilton (S), Slavin (O), Sproule (O), Taylor (S), Weir (P), Wilkinson (S), Woods (P).
Commentary
Tyrone waxwings invariably travelled on the John Stamp and never on the other ships, Prudence or Ontario, that travelled to PA in the Summer of 1832. Donegal waxwings travelled on all three ships. Unfortunately, the parishes or counties of origin were not recorded on the manifest of the Asia so that discovery will require a bit more digging to find out the answer. In other words, recruitment for the John Stamp appears to have happened at county level but not for the other ships.
Don MacFarlane
December 24, 2012 at 7:29 am
Passenger Groupings on Asia 1832
Barr/Wilson – Clogher, County Tyrone
Snodgrass/Bryan/Rich/Morrison/Nelson – Rich is probably in error, otherwise Ballymoney, County Antrim.
Arthur/Hunter/Diermott/Carland/Barton – Diermott is odd man out; otherwise Tyrone.
Southwell/McFadden/McAleer/McKenny – Southwell is the odd man out; otherwise Tyrone
McNamee/Conway/Cochrane – Derryloran, County Tyrone.
Patton/Graham/McCoy – North Antrim Coast viz Ballintoy or Cushendall.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 3:20 pm
On listing the choices: how many pages may be difficult since they tell you number of choices first and you have to scroll page after page until you hope you find the end. For ex: William Barber has 491,307 choices for all searches and 11,845 choices for US federal census. 1 family tree but it wasn’t matching his profile. Would it be better to say look at 5 pages and put down the number for best possible choices. It seems after the 1st 2 pages the choices on most people gets “unlikely”. In fact ancestry will put up “best choices for your ancestor”, then will list “unlikely choices”.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 3:48 pm
Yes. If it looks like if after the first two pages all you get is ‘unlikely’ then I would just put 2pp+ against the name. I think there might also be an ‘exact name’ option as well, to filter out the ‘and others’ category? Most of our waxwings only have one or two reasonable spellings. Hence, the names (within the confines above) I would give some latitude to would be such as:
Aiken (Eakin)
Allison (Alleson)
Ballantine (Balentine)
Barber (Barbour)
Boal (Bole)
Bryan (Brien)
Byrnes (Byrne)
Carlin (Carlan or Carland)
Carrigan (Kerrigan)
Cochrane (Cochran)
Cooke (Cook)
Davis (Davies)
Deery (Deary)
Devaney (Devany)
Diamond (Dimond or Dymond)
Diermott (Dermott or Dyermond)
Doak (Doack or Doach)
Donaghey (Donaghy)
Fergie (Fergy)
Fullerton (Fullarton)
Gibbons (Gibbens or Gibbon)
Gilfillan (Gilfillen or Gilfilland)
Greer (Grier)
Griffin (Griffen)
Harrold (Harrol or Arrol)
Hastings (Hasting)
Lecky (Leckey)
I will place a full inventory on the spreadsheet but you get the gist. I will also put a column for ‘Extras’ for the purpose.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 6:12 pm
On Ancestry,if you do an all-search on the left side of the page it breaks down twenty places where this name could be: Such as census and voter lists, BMD index, immigration, etc. For example, for Alexander Barber, there are Census records: 2,643, BMD: 5,000, immigration: 321. If you search census by year: 1840:4 pages, 1850:12 pages, 1860:14 pages, 1870:6 pages. Every time you narrow something down you get better results as long as you put in quality information. We’re going to get similar results for our single men.
John Burns: 1840:1,752, 1 in Ohio, 18 in NY, all-search 5,949
John Craig: all a 7,264
John Creighton: all – 127,737, 1840: 32 choices (10 results per page), 1850: 538, 1 in Philadelphia, 1860: 2 pages 15 results,
James Crilly all-7,976, 1840:none,1850 1 in NY, 1860 1 in Philadelphia, 1870 none
Do you want it broken down by census? Way too many possibilities and combinations!
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 8:43 pm
The interesting thing is the Watsons have to account for all of the labourers of the Ontario and John Stamp to make up their quota of fifty seven. They can’t afford to lose any, either that or they have to filch numbers from elsewhere which destroys their argument that the Irish labourers all came off a boat or boats from Derry that Summer. There is no room for error in their numbers if they hold to that position and that does not square with ‘any number of possibilities’ once you start going down the list on Ancestry?
Another thing, if you put Ireland as place of origin does that still churn out the same number of answers? I don’t believe for example that there were 538 John Creightons from Ireland in the US in 1850 with the same year of birth. We need to figure what is going on with Ancestry before we turn ourselves inside out?
Eileen Breen
December 16, 2012 at 12:13 am
All that means is that there are 538 versions of the name. Unless you put in US records only you will get choices from other places. The better the information you put in the more accurate the information is. Our issue is that we only have a name, birth year, and a place of origin that may or not be correct. Also the big thing is we know that they went to Philadelphia on the day they landed but what happened after this is unknown, thus many possibilities will also come up.
Don MacFarlane
December 16, 2012 at 5:43 am
Just ignore my blowing off steam about my frustration over Ancestry. I will nonetheless be directing my own efforts and energies in other ways, not to do with Ancestry, but I am glad they have one fan. You have turned up some nuggets of information and I suspect no-one else has ever used Ancestry in the innovative way that you have done so you may have started something.
I have started pulling together in the new Waxwings page the strands of the work that we have done so far. This page will be a dedicated research page and it holds duplicates of those posts which point towards ideas, lines of enquiry and directions that the research could take. I think we have enough of all of those to be getting on with and you will recognise a good number of these posts as being your own. In the course of cutting and pasting the stuff across, WordPress failed to cut the author’s name as well so I hope the explanatory acknowledgment at the top of the Wacwings page will suffice and meanwhile the original post remains on the FTT page.
I have attached to each post, wherever appropriate, a comment called a Corollary. A corollary is a proposition that follows on from a point or suggestion that has already been made, usually in the form of a testable or provable hypothesis. Feel free to add replies to the numerous questions that the Corollaries raise or reiterate. I am working my way slowly through and disentangling my thoughts as I go along so this exercise will take some time.
londonderry
December 11, 2012 at 10:34 am
I found move patterns in my research. I call them move patterns because they continued after the “emigration” move. They tended to be family, villages and churches on the first order, then trades and work related patterns. You definitely see this from the old country to America where they came in families, often around popular preachers like Craighill and settled in towns that they named after towns in the old country. But in America they moved again in families, not so much churches, because the farms, in my case couldn’t support the big families and they didn’t want to divide up the land. Why should they when there was land and a lot of it, just over the hill or just past the Ohio River. Just a theory and not proved, I think this continued until the communication patterns became active and mature. The people became more independent and self reliant. I am thinking Boone, railroads, rivers, wars and new territory deals. On my wife’s side we found that whole towns moved west to Iowa and Illinois at one time because of the offers of land for settlers/farmers in new state. In my mind this was a major motivator for the land locked and imperial driven family of Europe. I also think the Scotch component of most of these people…..adventuresome, risk taking, challenging, power weary, etc. is apparent. I am still sorting the Ulster component.
londonderry
December 10, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Great work Eileen, you are amazing. Do you ever sleep? My research and reading is consistent with yours albeit not as extensive. And it is consistent with my family who, as you may recall, moved from Derry in 1729 landing in Dover/Wilmington and bought a farm in Tinglestown just east of Harrisburg. I would add that Franklins folks, the Quakers, were very anxious to have these folks settle ever westward in Pa to hold off the Indians. Also, Virginia was more populated and than Pa and add in the P churches and “walla” you have settlements and streams of folks coming into the 1800s. These folks settled the mountains and were loyal to no one. The loyalists settled in the tidewaters. Another thing I noted in my research and visiting Donegal was that the famines as most of would cite for the emigration was caused in many cases by the British merchants in London dictating what the Ulsterites could grow and what they couldn’t. With diversity in crops, if one year there was a blight, then probably a different crop would make it. When the crops are limited, there is a reduced chance of this. My research also showed that the documentation of ships (and their passengers) PRIOR to the Revolution is very limited. So if you are finding ships in the early 1700s, I would be very interested. BTW Don, this may be the record for blog space on the internet!!!!!!!!
Mary Cornell
December 11, 2012 at 6:52 am
Terrific job on the timelines, Eileen. And Vic’s suggestions on how to incorporate them into the spreadsheets was great. My personal preference has always been the linear timeline (left to right read), but I like the color-coding idea for various events in the time line. It makes it easy to see simultaneous or overlapping events that are happening.
There was a footnote on the Aiken tree about Joseph Aiken.. Apparently, he is the brother who left for the States first in 1829. After he had established himself, he sent for the family who then followed in 1832. I wonder if this is the reason why the family’s place of origin is out of place with the others on the ship. And are there others whose place of origin is also out of place with the other passengers? Would they also have had a ‘scout’ who went ahead of the others to set up camp, so to speak, before the others arrived? I think it would be easier to pick out families than it would be to pick out the lone passenger, then backtrack to see if the name appears in earlier ships.
Commentary- Don, you have pinpointed the reason why I do not like Ancestry. It is the “locking up’ of records for financial gain. When I began my family research, most of the sites that are now on Ancestry were free to view on their individual sites. The owners of the sites are certainly within their rights to sell their information to Ancestry, but I see it as ‘selling out’ to the highest bidder. Public records, even those, indexed and researched by others, should not be hidden in a private depository, to be accessed only by those who are willing to pay the ransom. Ancestry looks like they are trying to do the same in the UK, but there are still outside sites that you can go to in order to find the information. Maybe this is why you do not have that to- and- fro feeling as much. You may go to a site and at some point reach a destination where you can page through without the constant returning to the search page and plugging in yet another name to search. There is also the difference of what has been placed behind money doors. A good example of this is Ulster Ancestry site which is a $ site, but the readily available information on the freepages is free to all and is information that can be extremely helpful in a search. This information would be behind the $ door at Ancestry. Greed is an ugly truth.
BTW Yes, Don I am diligently working away on the chapter for the book. The amount of information we have accumulated is monumental. Deciding what to put in and what to leave out is difficult. I have been constantly adding and subtracting, sometimes the same material. I have to keep in mind that the subject of the chapter is Duffy’s Cut and the Watson’s investigation. It is also difficult as we have not yet reached a definitive conclusion on the Watson investigation. Or more aptly put, we have not yet reached proof of a shoddy and reckless investigation put forth by a preening Dr. Watson and his brother. You may have to tone down my conclusion, Don. LOL
Don MacFarlane
December 11, 2012 at 8:14 am
I have just finished looking at ships from the year before and after 1832 to see if I could detect any chains of migration within families. I have to start taking a closer look at what I have now but some things jump out of the pages at me.
The quality of transcription of the names beggars disbelief at how shoddy it is. This in turn would become GIGO fodder for Ancestry – Garbage In / Garbage Out.
Around 40% of the waxwing names reappear in subsequent or previous voyages the year before or after, notably five new Patchells – none of them are picked up by Ancestry as immigrants into the US.
As a rule, I try to steer clear of politics but it should be noted that the majority of the waxwings forced to emigrate to survive were Protestants. Famine, oppression and persecution was never confined to one religion.
There is a peculiar pattern of families of five children or so below teenage years accompanied by father and spinster sister – otma mother in site.
There is a pattern of whole families emigrating in one fell swoopmand across three generations often.
There is a pattern of villages losing groups of young people in their late teens and early twenties of both sexes in bunches of 6-10 at a time, all different names, therefore presumably unrelated for the most part. One of these was Tory Island, a Gaelic speaking island (still) well off the coast of Donegal. One of the modern-day residents does paintings and I have posted one on the Townland page as a header. This Tory exodus was one of the few departures for PA from the wilder, more remote and truly Celtic parts of Donegal or anywhere else.
Eileen Breen
December 12, 2012 at 12:14 am
I remember reading that women in Ireland were not as valued as the men. They were a burden on a large family because women didn’t have jobs or professions early on and their families would pay for the passage to America. Maybe this was similar with children. Maybe they sent them to America with an aunt who may have been coming for herself. Children, both boys and girls, as well as woman probably were indentured. They had to stay on the ship until someone agreed to negotiate a contract for their labor. The longer they remained on the ship without a contract the more likely they would be indentured. The Master would pay for their passage and negotiate a contract for their labor. Woman cost $70.00, Children were $60.00 and men were $80.00 depending on skill level. In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the indentured system continued to 1829. In other parts of Pennsylvania it may have lasted much longer. In the mid 1800s a family member who came first assisted their relatives to come over, slowly dissolving the free labor system for immigrants. For the African slaves the free labor system would be a part of the South much longer.
If you get some townland that you think might fit for some of our single people I can add it to the profile and maybe it will spark something.
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 9:48 am
Perhaps we can concentrate for now on the names that offer the best short-term prospects to build up a better picture. I suggest for names A-C:
Aikens
Baird
Ballantines
William Barber
Brislands
Byrnes
Cooks
Craig
Cully
The Faughanvale Contingent
Creightons
Culbertsons
I will go back to your earlier instructions how to add material to trees in Ancestry, which I have not attempted yet, and I will do it in batches starting with the names above. The names that will be left out for now from this exercise will then form a reserve list which will be put to one side. In the case of surnames A-C, the names that will be given no further FFT for the time being are – Arthur, Allison, Barr, Barton, Birney, Blackwell, Boal, Brigham, Buchanan, Burns, Bradley, Caldwell, Carlin, Carrigan, Childs, Cole, Cochrane, Conway, Cowan, Crawford, Cussen.
If the same sampling quota holds for the rest of the names, this exercise should end up with about 60 names which should be much more manageable. All of the labourers from the John Stamp will be on the main list as of right.
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 3:42 pm
I have only just noticed but I think that Mary made some reference to this before, some of these people (on the John Stamp only unfortunately) are bracketed together by their baggage which points to who travelled together. Family units, obviously, but also as follows:
Hugh Foster/Robert Livingstone
John McAdam/Barney Rice
Rosannah McQuillen/Adam Diamond
Ewings/Robert Skilton
William McCormick/Richard Kane
George Quigley/Michael Farren
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 11:23 pm
Google Searches
I have started doing Google searches to find any people that have been on-line already, even going back a number of years, looking for our waxwings. I have placed weblinks on the Country Folks page and will syatematically work throught the names from the Duffytemp database. I have merely posted what could be promising links but I have no studied them yet. If I find items of interest in any of the links I will also place the links on the Family Trees of Ancestry.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 1:21 am
Livingstone/ Foster: Too many choices for each, not listed together anywhere. Robert M. Livingstone: Joiner, listed as a carpenter in Johnstown, PA. Several Livingstone’s live near him. Several entries for a Robert Livingstone: box maker in Philadelphia. Few other professions that don’t match.
Hugh Foster: weaver. 1896: upholsterer in Philadelphia but he would be 83 yr. In a ancestry tree living in NY. There’s a death in 1885 in Chicago, Ill., death in Pittsburg, PA in 1890. Hugh Foster death in Ballyshannon, Ireland in 1880. Hugh Foster in army dies in 1835 in Coraopolis, PA.
i put on their profile that they came together.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 2:08 am
John McAleer (McAdam b 1812) d. 6 Sept 1896 Delaware County, PA- Methodist. Barney Rice 1860 watertown, Jefferson, NY laborer (ours is a weaver). Multiple entries for each in military. Nothing promising.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 7:53 am
In general it would be important to keep a record of the ‘Too Many Choices’, not the details of the choices, just the message. That way, we could compare how often that message occurs for the Duffys Cut folk, or more generally for all males. Then we would have a fair good indication if the Duffys Cut candidates never presented with too many choices and were untraceable therefore possibly murdered as inferred by the Watsons. In other cases, meaning not John Stamp males but non-John Stamp females, we don’t need to expend effort on tracing all of these people, just the ones that we are interested in because they throw light on some aspect of the times they were living in.
In this recent example, the subjects are of interest and are worth looking into further despite the ‘Too Many Choices’ scenario because Foster, McAleer, Ewings and Creighton were all Duffys Cut fodder. The reason I got prematurely excited over the ‘discovery’ that some of these people shared chests – premature because I then discovered that the John Stamp was the only ship that recorded shared baggage? – was because that discovery would allow me to be even surer how reliable was my triangulation method of locating parishes and townlands of origin. On the limited info I got, my triangulation method would indeed appear to be relatively sound.
Going back to something Mary said, where did Duffy get all his 57 from, not just from the John Stamp. I should put an extra column into the Excel spreadsheet to signify Too Many Choices and colour code them. From what you have found already, Eileen, could you send me a list of the Too Many Choices you have found already, indicating preferably (not the headcount) just the number of pages that Ancestry threw up. If that is a chore, just the names will do. It occurs to me that if we address the too many choices issue, we could through that method nail the Watsons pretty quickly.
Just to recap where I am with all of this:
a) I have just about completed tracing or at least narrowing down probable townlands of origin. I will insert these into the spreadsheet, colour code for degree of certainty and send you a refreshed copy.
b) I have started putting comments into Ancestry.com for all of the people in the trees for whom I have some extra details and that includes townland of origin.
c) I have started trawling the internet by Google searching with keywords. Computer-literate armchair genealogists may have put stuff on-line already on waxwing names and this is proving to be quite productive already. I have not sifted though the material I have collated (posted on on the Country Folk page) yet as I am still gathering.
d) Feel free to insert in the spreadsheet any info from the US side as per the column headings, or in any other columns you wish to insert.
e) I intend to contact when we are ready the Philadelphia Donegal Association at
http://www.philadonegal.com/
I have a hunch that once all that is completed it will be a case of sitting back to see who takes the bait, just like the pond analogy, and the bait will have to be periodically refreshed. Like I said before, this is a formidable task and I have in my head a five-year timeframe. It should have gathered up enough steam by Fall 2014 to be of use to Eileen if at that point she wants to have discussions with BU about research.
Eileen Breen
December 13, 2012 at 12:43 pm
Only two ships had laborers: John Stamp and Ontario. Only one other ship,the Prudence, had a laborer and the Asia had none. When you add the number of the laborers from the two ships I believe the number was around 56-57. Also all the people on the memorial are from the John Stamp sixteen in totl 16 laborers.
On page 68-69 from the book there were two pairings: William Devine with a sister Elizabeth and her son John. William Putehill and David Patchill from Donegal (spelling from the book). 11 from Donegal, 3 from Tyrone, 2 Derry. 1 woman and 1 child.
FFT: Should we do a triangulation method of where people may have settled in Pennsylvania? – People with a similar name settling around Philadelphia. There is an article called: From Rostrevor to Raphoe: An Overview of Ulster Names In Pennsylvania 1700-1820 By Peter Gilmore
I’ll check out the ‘too many choices list’mand get back. It’s maybe easier to put up who we found because most of the single men had too many choices except one where we found a family tree on Ancestry. It’s been easier to find a grouping of a family.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 2:15 pm
The more I read, the more I get hot under the collar over the stuff that the Watsons have written about the Irish in their book ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’. As Mary has said, their work has been lazy, slapdash and sensationalist, not to mention very misrepresentative and disrespectful of the Northern Irish. I do not use the term Scots-Irish (a recent invention anyway) or Ulster-Scots because our waxwings were not all of that ethnic and cultural background.
It will take me quite a while to plough through all of it but even what I have posted of linked material so far on the ‘Country Folks’ page – and I am not even halfway there – makes it clear that these people were far from being the yokels they were made out to be. Or to paraphrase Ralph Waldo Emerson when he wrote:
‘What was behind them and what was in front of them was nowhere near comparable to what was within them’.
Don MacFarlane
December 13, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Medals of Honour to Irishmen
Indian Campaigns
http://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/citations3.html#M
Letter B
Richard Barrett
James Bell
Edward Branagan
James Brogan
James Brophy
James Brown
Patrick Burke
Richard Burke
Edmond Butler
Dennis Byrne
And the list goes on. For those with surnames with the letter B alone the Irish were awarded a quarter of the medals. I’m not Irish and it makes even me proud! A similar story can be told for the Crimean War where a disproportionate number of Irishmen were awarded the Victoria Cross. Supposedly, according to the Watsons, immigrant Irish were looked down on by US citizens. Excuse me??
Also note from the surnames that none of these gallant men were Scots-Irish.
Don MacFarlane
December 12, 2012 at 12:40 pm
I will be tidying up the FTT page very soon as it has got a bit top-heavy right enough. There are several thousand posts on that page compared to the other pages that are very much more modest. The FTT page has really also turned into a Duffys Cut page but I have no problems with that as it has got a clear sense of purpose now rather than just being a talkshop. I feel that the chapter that Mary is working on will complete the ‘Sea is Wide’ and you chapter ‘John 1678’ amongst others will see the light of day very soon now. As soon as I get receipt of Mary’s chapter I will contact Liz Rushen for her chapter and to push ahead with publication. I figure the other side of Easter now to wrap it all up. It has been a long time coming but worth the wait as the US side of things will now get a good airing and that was missing. Mary, I forgot to mention that the other chapters are 12,000- 20,000 words long!
londonderry
December 10, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Don, when I worked on the timelines before, I tried to put myself in the environment which impacted the people I was researching. I did this because I wanted to “feel” what they were experiencing and why they might have made certain decisions. This has a macro (historical) and a micro (day to day conditions) dimensions. I’m sure from your background will get a sniff here and there of the “Skinnerian” approaches. I say this because the title timeline seems too inanimate. BTW, I am hoping that you guys select the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s. The great migration was in the 1700s but the periods before shaped the migration and the post period continued the movement. I would love to get my hands on the model Mary says her brother uses. I like to use models in my consulting to make sure I think completely through the problems. I would use a Xcel spreadsheet with several pages at this point but there may be a better way to do it digitally.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Great timelines Vic! Thanks for this!. I do sleep occasionally. The timeline I got from Roots. I think I Googled: Timelines of immigration from Ireland to PA w/ a few additions to it from an article I found on Ancestry on the five waves of immigration.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 1:32 am
Timeline: What time period do we want to cover? There is great history for the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s and 1900s, for Ireland, the US and Pennsylvania that could be useful when writing our social timeline.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 7:08 am
Perish the thought but is this where the Watsons as historians have advantage over us? Bill Watson is a History professor who gives nothing away. When asked politely but obliquely, he chooses to shed no light on how he knows that the Duffy’s Cut crew were murdered en-masse or died of cholera. Has he got some historical trick up his sleeve that us amateurs are just starting to tumble to?
The idea for the book, ‘The Sea is Wide’, was that historians and family historians could come together within the covers of a book and show two sides of a coin. Historians paint with a broad brush. Unless they are biographers, they write about individual people to illustrate the period of history they cover. Family historians rarely but if at all write about history and then only in a very cursory way as a backcloth to the family tree being researched. Even programmess such as ‘Who Do You Think You Are’ give the nod and little else to history. Certainly, the family researcher touches base with historians in these programmes but the key and starting point every single time seems to be the snippets of information held within the family that allows the programme to ‘Pass Go’.
If I understand you right, you suggest that an in-depth knowledge of the history of the lifetime of the waxwings will find the historical records that could locate them? Or one could become in effect a historian of the period and be no further forward? I guess if you decide to contact BU these are questions that you will have to address head on. If you do a SMARTER exercise right now it might help to answer them. For now, my impressions for what they are worth are that the US BDM records are too dispersed and are too full of holes. The whole caboodle has been taken over lock, stock and barrel for the purposes of financial gain by Ancestry.com who have made a complete hotch-potch of them. By comparison, if I decided to locate emigrants to Australia, provided they were not convicts as their records were thrown into Sydney Harbour, I would find it a very simple exercise.
In short, I will do an analysis or exposure of the inadequacies of the Ancestry system. It claims to be the repository of BDM details of all immigrants to the US. I will carry out that exercise once I have finished dredging what I can out of the Irish sources. This is why I prepared the Excel spreadsheet. Between the spreadsheet and the vignettes there should be no need for the ‘back-and-forwards’ that Mary mentions. It certainly works for me but I have not started on the US sheet so it would not be of benefit to Mary or yourself yet. In the meantime, I believe you can download a template from Ancestry that cuts out the to-ing and fro-ing?
The concept of using historical insights has merit and it may well prove to be the finish-up to all of this. But it is for later, not for now. I also believe we have enough material, thanks to your own good work in Ancestry, to write a chapter for ‘The Sea is Wide’. I think Mary is tackling that as we speak? BTW I place a greater belief in Google than I do in Ancestry which is why I am drilling down to find as many keywords for Google searches for people ‘out there’. My Derry site has never been successful in getting these people in any numbers to post their queries and that is a nut I have still to crack. Loads of searches, certainly – over 24,000 this year, but hardly anyone leaves a message. If these things could be joined up we might get somewhere.
In brief, I think we need to keep in mind the size and the difficulty of this project which has almost 200 subjects being traced. I doubt whether any such kind of genealogical exercise has been carried out before. The beauty of it is that the snags and pitfalls that we come across with the large numbers of people can be identified and recorded and be valuable information for any family researcher looking for just a handful of people. I also try to keep in mind that a family researcher typically has been working on their project for at least 25 years. This is why I believe they deserve the admiration of professional historians. Luckily the historians in my book had the good sense to appreciate that the marriage of minds could be worthwhile.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 12:12 pm
On Ancestry they also have a large catalog of historical information, not just BMD records. I still think it could be interesting to weave different time lines of Ireland and US as well as Pennsylvania.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 1:38 pm
So do you want us to stop looking at the ship manifests and trying to find people. Are we done w/ it?
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 1:41 pm
I will plug away a bit longer with them to triangulate the names.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Other Ships to PA from Derry circa 1827-37
Asia 1828
Vernon 1832
Adam Lodge 1834
Ann 1834
Dorothy 1834
Edmond 1834
Ellergill 1834
Garland 1834
Jessie 1834 (Belfast)
Kinkella 1834
Macedonia 1834
Phoenix 1834
Courage 1836
Emmanuel 1836
Derry to Wilmington
Lady of the Lake 1831
Leander 1831
Inez 1831
Cupid 1833
Mary Cummings 1833
Cruikston Castle 1833
Lady of the Lake 1833
PA held its own as a port during the early 1830s, peaked in 1834, then it all fizzled out when other destinations replaced it viz NYC and Boston. Prior to 1832 and concurrently, Wilmington NC was very popular (it is 500 miles from PA) but it fizzled out as well. What was that all about? NYC was worse hit with cholera than PA so it wasn’t that which put people off. In other words there was a stampede into PA and then that became a wide berth.
Summary of Voyages Derry to US
1803 to 1812 – PA 10; NYC 15; Baltimore 3.
1813 to 1822 – NYC 1.
1823 to 1832 – PA 5; NYC 2; Wilmington 3
1833 to 1842 – PA 12; Wilmington 6
1843 to 1852 – PA 3; NYC 4
The peak year of sailings to PA was 1834 when they doubled compared to year before and after. Thereafter sailings from NI (Derry and Belfast) fizzled out. 3-4 sailings per year was the average apart from 1834, the boom year. Tnere were no sailings to PA in 1833 for a year after the cholera outbreak. Any relatives seeking to join up with Ulster emigrants would have had to sail to Wilmington and perhaps not bothered to trail back to PA.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm
5 waves of immigration to PA:
1717-1719: 5,000 Ulster men from NI immigrated in 12-13 ships. In 1717, the Marquis Of Donegal leased on his lands in Antrim expire. Those unable to pay the high rents were evicted. Between 1717-1719, 100 vessels sailed from NI with over 25,000 of them being Presbyterian.
1725-1729: Poverty was the dominant theme. In Ireland there were not enough crops harvested. Lack of jobs meant no money to purchase food or supplies. High taxes and landlords raised rents. Those not able to pay their rent were evicted. Those out of work were at risk for starvation.
1740-1741: Saw the first signs of emigration of the Scotch-Irish in America to Virginia, North Carolina and S. Carolina. Irish in south-east PA started to have political influence. 1740, famine in Ireland when over 400,000 people died. 1740-1750, there was a large exodus from Ireland to America.
1728: 1 in 10 people from Ulster paid their own passage. The Irish valued owning their own land, religious and political freedom and obtaining social prominence were factors that attracted residents from NI to America.
1775: 2,000 NI residents immigrated to America. The choice where to immigrate to was influenced by geography. Virginia and the North and South Carolina were not a choice for the Irish as these states had large plantations and slavery. Maryland was set up to be a home for Roman Catholics. Presbyterians wanted small farms. The middle colonies and New England were the best choices. Gov. William Penn encouraged the Irish to settle in Pennsylvania. An invitation to the Irish people from the Secretary also attracted them to Pennsylvania. The Delaware River was the entry point to Pennsylvania and to the Frontier and migration to the West. It is said an Irishman is not comfortable until he has moved at least twice. The first counties to be settled by the Irish were Chester, Philadelphia and New Castle. Emigration continued north of Maryland, establishing the counties of York, Cumberland and Bedford by 1775.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 1:01 pm
The story that was found where a family was looking for their family in Ireland could be a human interest story: Finding Miss McGhee. From our first impressions of her by looking at the spelling of her name, to where she may have come from. Occupations she may have had, reasons why she might have decided to immigrate using a historical time line in US and Ireland to the pitfalls of using BMD records, map software, and family member trees. Identifying the pitfalls of not being able to find her. Maybe identifying other avenues to pursue if you still want to look.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 1:39 pm
BTW The method I used to identify the places of origin from the ship manifests was as follows:
Sticking to one ship at a time, I looked at clusters of people, with these clusters being defined and demarcated by family units alongside them. Assuming that it was an anxiety-provoking time, quite apart from the natural sociability of the Irish, I looked at lone passengers and who they may have hung out with, even if they had just met them. More likely I assumed that clusters would have known each other from their own townlands as well. So, for example, if you had a cluster of three young males, bounded on each side by family units, I assumed that they were in each other’s company. This turned out to be the case more often than not and with this method I garnered sixty odd names that I was able to locate and I am still not finished. This was done simply with Griffiths Valuation by a triangulation method. If I found three passengers with waxwing names that had only one parish in common, out of perhaps six possibles, I assumed they came from that parish. It is not fool-proof I know but it is a fairly good bet.
Eileen Breen
December 20, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Should we put there relationships on ancestry? I was trying to put up known associates on their profile but this doesn’t seem to see this filter just the jobs. When I look for the person I try to see if they are neighbors on the census records. I put up some of the information you put up on the profile page on ancestry. I want to get through each ship at least 1x.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm
The idea of the timeline is starting grow on me as it may provide some clues. I will take that on with regards to the Irish end of things, basing it upon contemporaneous accounts in the Press viz Belfast Newsletter, Derry Journal and Strabane Morning News. Once I have that all gathered together I will send it to Vic as he is a dab hand at converting data into timelines. I have no ambitions to be a historian so I will keep whatever I find at a factual reporting level. As I said before it will probably require a good bit of sifting as much of the material in the old papers was political and imperialistic propaganda – not much has changed there then!
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 6:30 pm
Timelines 1600’s to Present: 1.Historic Events: Irish History, US History, PA History, Irish Leaders, US leaders, PA leaders,
2. Irish literature, speeches Timeline in US, Literary History in PA, as it pertains to Rights and Freedom for the Irish, Immigration, Irish in America United Irishman, Public opinion in Ireland, US and PA concerning the Irish
3. Presidential or Political Parties in Ireland, US and PA as they relate to Irish immigrant and rights of Irish to join in politics and own land and the Democratic party in particular,
4. Wars, Conflicts, Uprisings, Legislation in Ireland/ US/ PA affecting Irish,
5. Waves Of immigration, 6.The occupations, How they got to US, Indenture, Irish funding the passage, slavery in Ireland and US,
7. Religion as it pertains to some churches being dis-established and others are started and emigration: the expansion to the Frontier and ultimately the West.
8.Transportation timelines especially Canals, RR and our men of Duffy’s Cut.
9. Diseases. Yellow Fever (Under the yellow flag and the Lazaretta. Cholera- 3 waves of it etc how disease, poverty, decreased economy affected the Irish and public opinion.
10. Present day Irish in US, PA and Ireland on the issue of education, politics, immigration back to Ireland until banks failed. Still the need for immigration. Irish Times has a website helping those who want to immigrate. Our stories we found from ancestry can be plugged into the timeline as well as technology that is used to locate them.
1603: Accession Of James I in England. England Enforces laws against the Irish.
1606: Lands in six counties in Ulster confiscated by the British.
1607: Flight Of Earls O’Donnell and O’Neill To Spain.
1608: Plantation Of Derry
1640-1659: England is engaged in a Civil War. Oliver Cromwell defeats Royalist King Charles I and
the Parliamentary Army. Cromwell rules England when England becomes a
commonwealth and a Protectorate
1641: Great Catholic Rebellion led by Rory O’Moore. Return of confiscated lands and the British
are driven out of Northern Ireland. Catholics hold 59% of the land in Ireland.
1646: Massachusetts approves a law that religious heresy is punishable by death.
1649: Cromwell kills 2,000 men in Dublin and confiscates lands in Munster, Leinster and Ulster.
1650: Catholic landowners exiled to Connaught.
1652: Rhode Island declares slavery is illegal.
1656: 600,000 Irish Catholics are forced into slavery in Barbados and the Carribean as a result of
British rule in the colony.
1658: Cromwell dies. Population of Ireland decreases by 2/3 under his reign. from 1.5 million
inhabitants to 500,000.
1660: England approves the Navigation Act limiting goods being imported and exported from it’s
colonies. Only British ships can be used to transport goods. Charles II ascends the English
throne.
1663: King Charles II establishes a colony in the Carolina’s.
1664: New york becomes a British colony. Legislation passes that stipulates lifelong servitude for
slaves in US.
1672: 6,000Irish boys and woman sold as slaves in the British colony of Jamaica.
1688: James II defeated in England. Gates of Derry closed as James’ troops attempt to enter Derry.
1689: Siege and Relief of Derry.
1690: King William’s War hostilities between England and France spread to NY. Royal African Trade Co. looses monopoly over slavery.
1690: William Of Orange defeats James II at The Battle Of The Boyne.
1692-1829: Exclusion of Catholics from Parliament and Government.
1695: Anti-Catholic Penal laws introduced. Irish Rc hold 14% of the land in Ireland.
1698: 1st pamphlet written against England making laws for Ireland.
1702: Queen Anne ascends the throne: “Queen Anne’s war in the American colonies lasts
for 11 years and ends in 1713.
1714: Irish Catholics hold 7 of the land in Ireland.
1740: The forgotten Famine.
1775: Henry Grattan is leader of the Patriot Party in Ireland. Irish leader Daniel O’Connell is born.
1782: Irish Parliament won legislative independence.
1798: Revolution 1798. Irish leader Daniel O’Connell becomes an attorney.
1800: Act Of Union. Goes into effect 1 Jan, 1801.
1803: Robert Emmett’s conviction, trial and execution.
1829: Catholic Emancipation. Tithe wars begin.
1830: Last King Of Ireland dies in Dublin Castle
1837: Accession of Queen Victoria
1840: Daniel O’Connell’s Repeal Association is formed.
1842: “The Nation” newspaper is founded in Ireland.
1843: Daniel O’Connell holds meetings for Repeal Of Union.
1845-1849: The Great Famine. Charles Trevelyan, Head Of the Treasury and Sir Robert Peel,
imports Indian corn
1846: In April depots are opened to sell the corn by summer they are closed. Repeal Of The
Corn Laws.
1846: Failure of the potato harvest in August. by October, 1st deaths from starvation.
1848-1849: Worst Years Of The Famine: Trevelyan: Soup Kitchen Act. Trevelyan writes a book
on The Famine.
1848: Irish population is decreased by 2 million from death or immigration.
1858: Fenian Brotherhood founded in the US and and the Irish Republican Brotherhood is
established in Ireland.
1865: End of the American Civil War
1867: Fenian Rising
1869: PM Gladstone dis-establishes the Protestant Church in Ireland.
1870: Gladstone’s 1st Land Act
1875: Charles Stewart Parnell elected MP in County Meath
1879: Threat of a famine. Evictions. establishment of the Irish National League
1879-1882: Land war
1881: Gladstone’s 2nd Land Act
1882: Kilmainham “Treaty”, Parnell is released from prison.
1886: 1st Home Rule Bill
1891: Parnell loses 3 by-elections in Ireland and dies in October.
1893: 2nd Home Rule Bill
1903: Land Purchase Act
1906: Liberals win the election
1912: 3rd Home Rule Bill
1914: WWI
1916: Easter Rising in Dublin. May 3-12 executions.
1917: De Valera wins in East Clare
1918: End WWI
1919-1921: Anglo-Irish Treaty. Irish War Of Independence
1922: Civil War between Free State Army and the IRA
1923: End of the Civil war
1926: De Valera founded the Fianna Fail
1932: Fianna Fail wins the general election
1937: Constitution Of Eire: claims 32 counties
1939: WWII: Ireland is neutral
Just some Ireland topics we covered. if we could weave some of the other timelines it might be interesting.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 9:33 pm
typo: 1714: Should say: Irish Catholics own 7% of the land in Ireland.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Railroad Timeline:
1804: “Golden Age of railroads” also known as the “age of the iron Horse” begins. Richard Trevithick hitches a steam engine to a coal wagon over 9 miles of track in England.
1824: George Stevenson builds first public railroad in England.
1825: Stockton and Darlington Railroad is established in England linking 2 towns 20 miles apart.
1825: Directors of the Hudson Canal Company sent 2 engineers to investigate the steam locomotive. They order 4 locomotives at a cost of $12, 515.58. One of them was the Stourbridge Lion . It was the first locomotive to run in America. Canal boats on the Eire Canal was a vital transportation system.
1827: A survey is initiated to plan the track location for the Columbia and Pennsylvania Railroad.
1829: Stourbridge Lion runs on 16 miles of track in Pennsylvania. It was used to pull coal from the mines from Carbondale to Honesdale. The 7 ton locomotive was deemed to heavy.
1830: The steam locomotive: The Best Friend Of Charleston was built in NY and the South Carolina Canal and Railroad Company built a 127 mile track from Charleston to Hamburg, Georgia. It’s first run was 25 Dec 1830. It could pull 50 passengers in a half-dozen cars at 20 miles per hour.
1831: In Pennsylvania the Pennsylvania Railroad made a contract to build a railroad track on mile 59.
1850: 11 states had granted railroad charters. Over 1,000 miles of track were used.
1860’s during the American Civil war both the confederate and the Union armies realized that the railroad’s were vital to their supplying and transporting their troops.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 2:05 pm
From the updated name list the other day:
Elizabeth McKnight: There are a few trees with this name. From the Census: Reading, Berks, PA; Washington, Jefferson, PA; Allegheny, PA; Delaware, Juanita, PA.
James Nance: Found nothing in PA. I saw a few states with that name: Ill, NC, Indiana, but nothing looked promising.
Peter Diermott: Nothing coming up at all for him.
John Carland: Nothing for him. Civ War marker in NH, a few family trees but nothing promising.
James McKinney: d. 1878 in Philadelphia ward 26; also a McCanney tree with similar birth year, perhaps a misspelling of the name.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 8:17 pm
From the Asia: Eliza McNamee
Lots of McNamees in Philadelphia, only one Elizabeth married to a James. The last name is probably her married name. She’s a spinster on the ship’s list. One in OH, one in NY.
William Hill: Farmer. Only listed as a weaver in two censuses. He came with a brother James Hill. Can’t find them together. In 1860 W. Hill is a plasterer. Other censuses for James in Philadelphia birth dates don’t match for the occupation.
Sterling Family: I tried lots of combinations for them but I can’t find any census that has them all in it. James aged 30 might be the father of Mary Ann aged 2 and Sarah Jane aged 3. Isabelle may be his sister aged 24. I tried Isabelle as the mother too. Mary aged 50 is a spinster so she may be an Aunt to James and Isabelle.
Alice McSwine: There are McSwines in Philadelphia and in surrounding PA but no Alice. Note: McSwine’s Gun: Located in Donegal: A cavern. Photo of a drawing of this place and a description of it. It can be googled also. Maybe the name is from Donegal. Ship manifest says she is from Ireland, no townland or county given.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 9:35 pm
Mary and Andrew Morrison: too many choices.
William Balentine: William R. married Andrews in Philadelphia, no date with the record. No good choices.
Samuel Adams: 1850 death date in Philadelphia: Cholera. Kensington Methodist Church.
Mary Black: too many choices.
Didn’t find anyone today 😦
Eileen Breen
December 9, 2012 at 1:04 am
FFT: I saw a book online about managing a genealogy research project. A few ideas came up:
To do a journal of negative results, do a correspondence log. If a book or periodical was used, reference it (Ancestry has a place for it), and do a research journal. This might be helpful if Mary does the story on pitfalls and success with using the mapping software on ancestry. I’m still working out the details for the class etc.. There is supposed to be a numbering system for each ancestor depending on status in the family. On Ancestry we can put in relationships so I’m not sure we need it.
Mary Cornell
December 9, 2012 at 8:15 am
Did the first run through of the Asia and have come to the conclusion that most of the passengers were put into the witness protection program when they landed in Philadelphia. Not very many leads, but did find two different possibilities for the Bradley brothers. Possibility they went to New Jersey, but then it looks like they returned to Pennsylvania. Or these are different Bradleys altogether.
The most interesting family that I found was the McFate family who seem to be in Sugar Creek, Venango County, PA. I found a Letitia McFate married to a John Culbertson who are on the ship with the McFate family. In the 1850 census, there is a Jane and Sara McFate living with John Culbertson in Sugar Creek. Several other McFates are living in the same general vicinity of each other in Sugar Creek.
If you want to see how not to do research, you need to check out the Rootsweb family trees that have been put up for the McFate family. It is not just one contributor, but they all have put together a jumbled mess of family members. So either they were copying off someone who hadn’t a clue about how to do research or none of them knew how to do research. Here are the three names of the towns where the McFates were from. Drumhaven, Donegal…Drumhevirre, Donegal… or Drumhavre, Donegal. My bet would be on Drumhaven. Several of the trees have Letitia getting married a year after she died and having children up to five years later. Other trees have children and spouses born before 1850 as still being alive. And my favorite is the famous town of Landerry, Ireland. I apologize if there is in fact, a Landerry, but I think they mean Londonderry.
There is one thing that ticks me off to no end is that Letitia McFate is listed as being baptized into the LDS Church in 1912, seventy years after she died. Something that is still practiced today by the LDS Church, though denied. The more souls on your family tree supposedly gets you a higher place in the seven heavens. The gall of the act is what gets me. But I digress,… These particular trees should be used as examples of shoddy research. It also pinpoints why knowledge of the history, geography, politics, religions and ideas of an era are so important in genealogy.
Eileen Breen
December 9, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Nice job Mary: I have looked at Rootsweb before and I don’t particularly care for it. People’s trees are confusing like the Aikins’ tree that’s on it.
I think when we look at social timelines we often see them as one for Ireland and one for US. It might be interesting to put it on a spreadsheet listing as many types of social timelines that we can think of as it applies to Irish Immigration to Philadelphia and Emigration to the West. I was thinking for our research to look at timelines for Ireland and America as they affected immigration from 1700-1900s.
In US and Ireland: Political Parties, People Of Influence, Legislation that assisted or discouraged Irish, Heads Of Churches who imposed laws against Irish RCs and Irish Protestants, waves of Immigration in 1700-1800s, Political Parties in Ireland and US, Occupations, Historic Events, Transportation, Geography, Public Opinion, Fraternal Organizations and those who supported the Irish. Maybe we can come up with some more.
I was also thinking about the mapping thing. It could be interesting to test out a few different types of genealogy mapping software: Ancestry, Family Tree Maker and others. Then look at someone’s experience in Irish history and genealogy with 0-3 years experience, 3- 5 years and 5 plus years, and have them try to find samples of people from Our ships: either a single person, a family and/or some of our missing people and see if they come up with any results. It could be interesting to see if they could perform skills such as copying info from someone’s tree like a photo, emailing a member or finding a certain record. Then they could help to critique mapping-based genealogy software, its pitfalls and success stories, which program was easiest to use or that they liked or disliked.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 1:28 am
I think you were right about studying Irish history first. The more I looked at various sites and books on genealogy, they all seem to talk about how they did a specific person and the records they searched. They all used the same basic records. Between databases on sites like ancestry and a good local library or regional library I think most people can find the databases to start a search. The problem lies with little or no information to go on. With just a name, birth year and country of origin it’s going to be extremely difficult to find people. There is a site online that helps to find cold cases like this and you can volunteer to help using your genealogy skills. I think certification could be icing on the cake but to understand the history would be the ideal. My brother said he uses map software for his job. He said it’s like the ancestry software that the more data you put in when your looking up a certain topic the better your results are. He told me there’s math behind it! That’s your job! He thought maybe researching the logic behind map software might help us in our research.
Mary Cornell
December 10, 2012 at 6:22 am
Thanks Eileen. I decided to give Rootsweb another chance because it can provide clues to a family. I chose the Aiken family as my subject. Luckily, the first tree I chose seemed to be well documented and the reason I know this it is because the information matches the information you found on Ancestry. The tidbits I found on this particular tree might help you in your search for the Aiken/McQuigg families in NI, Don. According to the tree, the families of the Aikens and McQuiggs are related by marriage. James Aiken’s mother was Mary McQuigg. Both are listed as being from Ballymena, Antrim.
I like your idea of testing out your mapping ideas. Maybe it could be possible to somehow incorporate the ideas of the times into the schematic? My peeve with the current systems is the constant paging back and forth. I often lose track of what I was looking for in the first place.
Don MacFarlane
December 10, 2012 at 8:16 am
The McQuiggs appear from the 1803 Agricultural Census to have mainly been from Rathlin Island off Ballycastle in County Antrim and are listed as:
Patrick, John, Aeneas, Henry, Michael.
There were offshoots of them further west who had come ashore and they were based in Dunluce and Ballintoy: James, Alexander, Catherine.
Click to access 1803censusantrim2.pdf
McQuigg (a Mayo clan) in Irish means ‘unkempt’ or ‘scruffy’ and is similar to Quigley, a counterpart from Donegal.
Dr Ronagh McQuigg doesn’t look a bit scruffy and she is a law lecturer in Belfast. She is an expert in international law as it pertains to domestic violence against women.
Eileen Breen
December 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm
Can you open 2 screens on the same page? I heard that’s helpful. May contacting the family might give us some clues. I had contact one person who had a little insight. There were many people researching this tree on line on rootsweb and ancestry. Maybe the man that put up the tree on Rootsweb might be worthwhile. I think he started the tree and others on ancestry added to it. Also there is a book: Some history of the Aikin’s family that’s in a library. Feel free to add information to the ancestry tree or change it if you find something needs changing.
Eileen Breen
December 7, 2012 at 2:26 am
I think the cholera pandemic, prejudice, racism and its social impact on the Irish in Philadelphia and surrounding neighborhoods would be a good study. I saw that the BC genealogy certificate program has a forensic genealogy course as part of the four month course. I sent you all two articles from NPR on forensic genealogy. One was what it is and the other is how police used a computer program to track crime that was originally used to track pandemics. I thought their approach was interesting. They could pinpoint areas of crime and analyze the information to see if the crime was spreading. I would like to use it to plug in all our data!
Eileen Breen
December 7, 2012 at 2:47 am
Instead of plugging in “crimes” we could plug where they came from, which ships everyone came off of, where they went, what happened to them (jobs, social factors such as prejudice, poverty, indenture), disease, crime, births, marriages, deaths, religion migration within a family).
Don MacFarlane
December 7, 2012 at 7:58 am
Now this is where I display my prejudice! This mapping study sounds an awful lot more exciting to me than the historical study on cholera and it introduces or develops a whole new method to genealogical research. My own doctoral research took a method used in racial conflict to study identity, linked it up with decision theory, and applied it in a clinical sphere in a way that it had never been done before to study disposition and intention. My point being if you have a proposal that takes a totally fresh approach to an area of study it could fire a potential supervisor’s imagination that he might want to throw his weight behind it. If you did decide to look at forensic genealogy further it would be throwing sand in the face of the seemingly ramshackle approach that the likes of the Watsons and other so-called historians took to things.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 12:03 am
There’s an ArcGIS Explorer for free. It can be viewed on-line and maps/data can be shared within the group.
Eileen Breen
December 7, 2012 at 1:23 am
I wrote to BC for info. They say the majority of people who go through this program teach, write and present papers. Teaching is not for me. Also, the program has a lot of literature which isn’t my thing either. I would rather do research. The sociology aspect interests me but I didn’t see it on their site. So I’ll see what’s up when I talk to them. The other certificate program might be useful too. It’s a four-month course.
Don MacFarlane
December 7, 2012 at 8:22 am
I think you have been misinformed or partially misinformed, depending who you were speaking to. If you are on a so-called Fellowship or some such, you are probably quite likely to be hooked into teaching and such like my friend Deb Wilson was. This is because, in her case, she had come over from the US as a mature student on a cultural exchange scheme, she liked the place and she decided to stay. Although she was a well-qualified social worker, her visa did not permit her at first to apply in open competition for permanent jobs here so she did bits and pieces of temp jobs. She applied for and she was offered a Fellowship to study for her PhD. This became her sole source of income which she was happy enough about as it gave her some security. The downside was that she became an honorary member of staff of the University and was required to do some teaching or other bits of small commissioned research for the University – basically to fund her Fellowship. In my case none of that applied as I was a part-time student and I held onto my day job so the University could not place any demands upon me.
As far as the literature part of the course goes, this sounds to me like misinformation and relates to the MA rather than the PhD. As I said before, a PhD has no course content as it is not a taught degree course and you have a completely free hand with regards to what you do with your time subject to two restrictions – you must comply with whatever the supervisor wants of you to enable timely progress reports, and you must meet the target deadlines for completing the different components of the thesis or dissertation as you call it. Therefore, there is nothing in the curriculum other than what you choose to put into it, subject to the appropriate SMARTER guidance of the supervisor. SMARTER is an acronym for Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Time-sensitive, Evaluative, Reviewable.
BTW I forgot to mention my research involved a form of statistical mapping called SEM or Structural Equation Modelling, otherwise known as covariance structure analysis, using a computer programme called AMOS, but there are other ones such as EQS (which is fine) and LISREL (which I didn’t like). You don’t need statistics to use them although in my case I did use quite a lot. Sounds to me like the forensic mapping would use something along similar lines.
http://www.spss.co.in/video.aspx?id=44
Eileen Breen
December 7, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Thanks for all the insight. I really have a lot to think about. I think I’m beginning to understand! I don’t need an MA first and then a Ph.D? I think the program I saw for BC was a MA program. I was trying to find Ph.D information but kept finding the MA program. I asked for information but I haven’t heard yet. I’ll look into what mapping program they used on the NPR and try to see if their study is available. I was thinking the police mapping study had variables that were static and one that was dynamic; how the crime moved from from neighborhood to the next. That’s why I thought cholera. But later I was thinking the dynamic variable could be the migration?
Don MacFarlane
December 7, 2012 at 2:05 pm
There are Research Masters degrees as well and they are called MPhil or some equivalent. I did a Masters before my PhD but, if it is research you are interested in, it sounds to me you should avoid any other kind of Masters degree. It is possible if you are going straight from a primary degree that they might require you to do a module or two in any perceived areas of weakness, or because they put that as a basic requirement. Or indeed, for that matter, you could volunteer to do additional courses if you thought that doing them – eg Irish and/or American History of the period, or a crash course in statistics, or research methods, or English writing skills – would strengthen your ability to do the research degree well. I skipped all of mine because they were modules and exams in my Masters.
SEM will do perfectly well any social research incl. mapping or trend analysis you have in mind to do and you don’t need to specify dynamic variables, or you can if you want, that’s entirely up to you. Analysis of dynamic variables, by the way, is just another term for repeated-measurement, and it is no more difficult to do.
Eileen Breen
December 7, 2012 at 3:06 pm
BU also has a forensic genealogy course and I asked them about a Ph.D. Capella University on-line had a Criminal Justice Ph.D program but it didn’t have the forensic genealogy part.
Don MacFarlane
December 7, 2012 at 4:34 pm
How Many Fish are in the Pond
Just for fun:
http://www.figurethis.org/challenges/c52/challenge.htm
Note: Be wary of the answer suggested by the hint. It’s not right either!
Mary Cornell
December 7, 2012 at 6:31 pm
Using this method would only work in a pond. No matter how big the pond, it has boundaries that cannot be breached. Since animals and people migrate back and forth, a gross underestimation of the population will occur. A geographically isolated location would give a closer estimate, but my guess is that it would also be on the low side. This would also go back to Eileen’s idea that the migration has to be the dynamic when considering mapping for a forensic genealogy study.
I forgot this. The other day, Eileen eliminated a choice because the age of fourteen sounded too young for a wife. The years we are looking at girls were often married young. In my family tree, there were several of the girls who married at fourteen and started having children at fifteen.
Don MacFarlane
December 7, 2012 at 6:47 pm
The Pond Puzzle
A good start. Any more offers?
Eileen Breen
December 7, 2012 at 9:58 pm
Do you have to keep catching and releasing so many times before you get an accurate number?
Don MacFarlane
December 7, 2012 at 11:01 pm
Exactly so, ‘got it in one’ as the saying goes.
There is never a unique number that is the ‘true’ and only correct answer. There is only ever an estimate, an approximate that is in turn within the range that is possible. That is what statistics is all about. To get the range one needs repeated sampling and then take the average, mean, median or mode (some one of these) as the best estimate.
Quite apart from the numeration, one has to account for effects such as depletion (Mary’s pond analogy), attrition (death), growth (birth), responder bias (taking the bait), masking (trap-shyness), sampling errors (using the wrong bait), confounding (different species) etc etc.
That about sums it up. To carry out a proper capture-recapture estimation would require advanced calculus, not a simple sum.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 1:45 am
Count me out! I checked out ArcExplorer On Line and it says it’s free but it’s a free trial then $2500/ yr but 5 people can use it at at time. They have a lot of nice tools to use. They also have software to put in large amounts of information and track demographics, competition, supply and demand (sounds like a business model that maybe could be changed to a ancestry one) Ancestry has GPS maps that you can see from each person’s profile. It would be interesting if Ancestry could add to their mapping software so you could track migration or other things you want to track.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 2:38 am
Ancestry uses mapping software right? Do why not use it to track all people from various counties: Derry, Antrim, Tyrone, Donegal; those on the ships; woman, men; laborers; spinsters; children; other types of labor; internal migration – how many stayed in Philadelphia, how many went to ohio, Ill, Tx, or other places – we could make a tree for each, also we can use the photo of each person in these trees. Our main trees are the ones we have now in which we could hold all the records we find, birth, marriage, death, census, land, naturalization, passport, military etc. The GPS map on ancestry would highlight where they came from and where they immigrated to.
Don MacFarlane
December 8, 2012 at 11:08 am
That seems to be a massive project, one worthy of a book in its own right. If you are up for it, you should take the lead and you can count me in. It is also a project worthy of a PhD, all-told I figure it would have a gestation period of five years to bring to completion, but it is do-able and you could do the two in parallel. All the criteria you listed are easily handled and analysable within SPSS which is the standard statistical package for social sciences.
BTW The fishpond seemed to me to be a very good analogy for the Waxwing project. That is why I put it up as a poser. Within the numeration, one has to account for the effects of depletion (Mary’s pond) = internal migration from PA to TX and elsewhere, attrition = death, growth = birth, responder bias (taking the bait)= Ulster-Scot waxwings (or pike versus trout to stick with fish) are easier caught; masking (trap-shyness) = indentured labourers are not captured by censuses; method of capture (net or line)= different methods such as Griffiths / Flaxgrowers versus / Tithe Holders pick up or fail to pick up same names; sampling errors (using the wrong bait)= Ancestry.com; vectors (fish disease, cholera, murder)= independent events interfere with natural process; confounding (fishing in the shade versus bright sunlight)= looking only in Philly or West Chester and placing too much reliance on particular directories eg McElroy of unknown reliability.
I could beat the analogy to death but you get the gist. Capture-recapture seems to be what the exercise is all about. If the fish is caught once, put back, then never seen again, does that mean it has died, it has got crafty or it has escaped the pond?
Mary Cornell
December 8, 2012 at 6:41 am
If it weren’t for the numbers, statistics would be fun.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 11:30 am
I agree! Mary: do this with me! I was thinking that the people on the four ships are the fish in the pond. Our waxwings are the marked ‘fish’. Then we keep catching and releasing them until we find them all? Or come up with something we can measure, depending on what we find?
Don MacFarlane
December 8, 2012 at 11:52 am
I meant to say has the fish died (as the Watsons would have it), got crafty or escaped the pond (I said escaped twice, ommiting death).
Mary Cornell
December 8, 2012 at 5:58 pm
Exactly, Eileen. We are dealing with some pretty cagey fish. Our problem seems to be that we catch those who are masquerading as our waxwings. We have two choices. We can keep fishing in the same spot (meaning location, not source) and wait for them to pass by (least likely, but not impossible) or we can constantly change spots (least desirable, we get lost in the possibilities). If we could find a definitive way to keep or eliminate our possibilities, I think the pond would become much smaller. I don’t see any easy way on that idea so I guess we will be constantly catching and releasing. So far, I have gone through the constantly updated waxwings at least a dozen times and do not have any definitives. Do we at some point remove a name from our waxwings and place it in the lost column?
BTW Talk about mixed metaphors – waxwings and fish! Neither one can live in the others’ enviroment (sp).
Don MacFarlane
December 8, 2012 at 7:59 pm
I haven’t made any attempt yet really to look at the US side of things and I have just finished the vignettes on the DuffyTemp page. I have started having a measure of success in pinning down the location of origin of some of these waxwings and I am about to have a second pass at them – more details tomorrow.
Eileen Breen
December 7, 2012 at 12:39 am
I think I found the Rae family from the Asia and there are several families researching this but no interesting histories or photos yet. Basically, James Rae b 1777 from Ireland immigrated with his sister Susan who was single and his children: James b. 1809, Ruth b 1814 and Samuel b 1817. Samuel Rae is found in the 1860 Census and was married to Mary W. Polly Dickey of Armstrong, Indiana, PA. They had four children between the 1860 and 1880 censuses. The children were James F b 1848, Hannah I. b 1850, William D b 1854 and George S. b 1858. Susan who was James Rae’s sister was living with them. In the 1870 census Samuel was a farmer, his land was worth $1300 and his personal estate was worth $1100.00. By 1880 he was listed as a farmer but he was disabled. A family tree has his death date as 1908 but I haven’t found the death date to confirm it. I think that might be all we get from this unless I find military records on the younger generation. Time to move on I think. I also saw records, but not matching, for Raes living around Antrim in earlier and other US censuses but I couldn’t find this family in 1840, 1850, 1890 or 1900.
Eileen Breen
December 8, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Five generations of the Rae family up on the Asia family tree. We have a few tombstone photos and one old photo. This family stayed around the Indiana, PA area. The modern family spread out a little in PA but close to where the original family was. The family spells the name Ray (see tombstones). Also all the censuses except the original family spells the name as Ray.
Don MacFarlane
December 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm
And I think they were spelt Rea on the ship’s manifest?
Eileen Breen
December 9, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Rae in on the manifests for the original family and everyone else is Ray. I did see other trees on line with spelling Rae.
Don MacFarlane
December 9, 2012 at 1:50 pm
I must have been looking at a different lot that are listed as Tea which I took to be Rea.
Anyway, I have been having some success pinpointing the original locations of our waxwings (60 in total) and that is still just my first stab at it. I have put up the details alongside the names with the vignettes. They are not yet entered into the database. I have arrived at these by a rough-and-ready eyeball test but I may well apply a more sophisticated test later on – something in the nature of logistic regression but that is for later. My main effort at present is to get the maximum amount of info about the waxwings before they have left the nest. When I am ready I will ask if the extra details can be put onto Ancestry or grit my teeth and try to do it myself!
The location details that are given in most cases are three in number – townland (60+%), parish (80+%) and county (90+%) – where the numbers in brackets refer to my level of confidence that I am correct. I have quite a bit more to do on it but I am taking a break now as I have been at it for hours (not complaining as I have been in the zone). The aikens are bugging me and not being able to locate Ballyhall yet where a mysterious McQuigg also comes from.
maccarleo
December 6, 2012 at 9:50 pm
Looking at the BC Irish studies program, it would be perfect for you Eileen. And it is not expected that you go down and enroll today. It is FFT and though I cannot speak for the others, I will be there for moral support if you need it. Besides, with all of the information we have, your dissertation is already halfway there.
Eileen Breen
December 5, 2012 at 11:31 pm
We just got a note on ancestry from George Kerr re. Mary Ballantine who was Archy Ballantine Sr’s sister. Mary married a William I. Pollock and they had a daughter Margaret who married George Kerr. The man who is writing to us is George Kerr and Margaret Pollock’s grandson (on Ancestry he is georgekerr123). He states “I have no insights into the motives of Archy Ballantine but my Great-Grandfather George Kerr came from Ireland with two brothers and they were indentured farm hands in Downington, Pennsylvania. Free to leave in 1849, George Kerr emigrated to California to pan for gold where in 1852 he married a daughter of a farmer who had bought his indenture and inherited a farm.
I had read that indentured servants were done with in Philadelphia by 1829 but the Kerrs were indentured much later. Maybe we need to look at indentured schedules for our Duffy’s Cut laborers? I also read that the average period for indentured servants was fourteen years for adults and seven years for children. Over seventy per cent of the people didn’t survive being indentured becuse of the harsh conditions. If the servant thought he was almost done with it the farm owner could tack on more money he owed thus keeping him indentured forever.
Don MacFarlane
December 6, 2012 at 12:15 am
Being indentured in the US sounds exactly like being a convict in Australia then? Fourteen years was one of the sentences there if it wasn’t the seven for a lesser ‘crime’ or the life sentence for a more serious. Funny that the lengths of term were exactly the same for convicts as for indentured servants?
Eileen Breen
December 6, 2012 at 2:41 am
I’m a little puzzled why George Kerr and his brother Henry sailed on the ship Jamestown from Liverpool to NY 20 on March 1848. On the ship manifest it says George was aged 20 and a farmer from Ireland. Nothing on the manifest says anything about being indentured. I tried to look for advertizements from ship captains to sell indentured servents either in NY or PA. There is a newspaper called the Gazetter in Virginia that is supposed to have a lot of these ads in thev1700s. I’m unclear why the Kerr brothers went to NY then PA. I also tried to look for any contracts for indentured servants in East Bradford, PA. There is a book on-line for free about Indentured servants in Pennsylvania, ‘Redemptioners To Philadelphia’. I sent you the link. I tried to go back to send it to Mary and Vic but I lost it somehow so I’ll try to put up the name again later. George Kerr’s grandson said they were married in 1852 but I think it was 1858. Margaret would have been fourteen in 1852. I tried to find him in the Civil War but there were too many choices for his name.
It is interesting to note thatbthere was a period in England when they indentured convicts and the poor. It became such a problem in Maryland when runaway indentured convicts took off in the surrounding cities. Maryland was the top spot for indentured convicts from England. There were numerous advertizements for the return of the convicts. In the late 1700s in Philadelphia the cost of a female indentured servant fresh off the boat was $70.00, men $80.00 and boys $60.00.
Indentured Service was where “one party agrees to serve another for a period of years in exchange for an initial payment or money”. Indentured Servant were seen as property and they were subjected to various constraints by their masters. Masters were not supposed to have total control over them but they controlled the length of service, conditions and the type of work to be done. Theybcould increase the length of service at will.
A proprietor received fifty acres for each servant or laborer he recruited to Pennsylvania. The proprietor had an ‘acquaintanceship’ with the ‘Masters’. Contracts were oral, based on their customs in their home country. Later on the contracts were written and became less about customs. Initially, Indentured Servants in PA cleared forests and were skilled laborers. Labor became expensive as America expanded into the West and America then depended on a mixed labor system of slaves and Indentured servants.
In England in 1707 at the time of the Act Of Union, Indentured Servants came from Great Britain. By the mid-to-late 18th century Indentured Servants from Northern Ireland and Germany filled the need for cheap labor. In 1720 the Redemptionist System replaced the older structure of labor and was the greatest source of free labor in Pennsylvania well into the 18th century.
Ships carrying servants had to furnish within 24 hours a Justice Of The Peace with a list of all those being imported, including their crimes. If they were found fit to enter the country, the J.P. wound grant the merchant or captain a ‘Certificate Of Permission’. Without this, an Indentured Servant would be freed from any obligations despite having made a contract with a master. By 1789 there were laws forbidding the transportation of convicts and ‘undesirables’.
Ships’ captains would place ads in newspapers for Servants and Redemptioners from Londonderry and listed men, woman and boys and their occupations. Terms could be appled for to the ships captain, giving the name of the ship and the Port of Philadelphia. Immigrants funding their passages to America’s colonies disrupted the free labor system. Europeans were enjoying a higher income for their labor and as a result prices for passage began to decline. Recent immigrants were funding their family to come to live with them through a system called ‘remittances’.
In Great Britain those wishing to fund their passage to America did so by entering a contract with a merchant. Individuals sold their ‘labor’ to the ‘master’ of the ship. The ‘Master’ had to sell his labor to a ‘Buyer’ in America to pay for the passage. The laborer would have to pay for any extra expenses, bring their own food or buy it on board. If a family member died during the voyage, the family would have to pay his share of the passage. There are many accounts where a ship’s captain would be responsible for locking up and handing out the food and water. In one case a ship was lost at sea for four months, someone broke into the food cabinet and the whole ship was ‘punished’ for it and the captain refused to feed the passengers. In many cases whole ships of passengers starved to death.
Before a servant left Europe he had to go to court to show that he agreed to the agreement freely if he was over the age of 21 years of age and he would be ‘bonded’. In PA if a servant was under 21 years he was registered as an ‘apprentice’ which meant that some type of education was expected to take place but it was not mandatory. Children often worked in the fields instead.
Unscrupulous masters manipulated the system and hired laborers without a written contract. The laborer could not then go to court to dispute the length or terms of a contract. Contracts for male children ended when aged 21 or 22 and for girls at age 18. For adults the contract was based upon their productivity, and if they had a trade, upon their gender and level of education. At the end of the contract the master was required to bring the servant back to court within three months of the end of their contract. The Indentured Servant had to pay a for their freedom and any provisions that the master provided to the servant. The servant’s contract would be lengthened to pay for their freedom and provisions. If a indentured servant was a criminal he could work off his sentence and absolve his crimes.
Eileen Breen
December 6, 2012 at 2:49 am
I agree the Indentured servant system was like that in Australia. In Pennsylvania the free labor system occurred longer than in other colonies. I was thinking our children on the ships could they have been indentured if they were deemed a burden to a large family in Ireland?
Don MacFarlane
December 6, 2012 at 8:30 am
All of that seems to fit but you start to wonder where the advantage was for Irish people to sign up for indentured or slave labour in the US. Did word never get back to Ireland just how awful the conditions were? Did illiterate people know what they were putting their mark to? Were the English establishment, especially the courts, complicit in all of this just to get the Irish out of the country. Viz ‘if they’re stupid enough to fall for it they deserve everything that is coming to them’ or ‘sure the Famine is round the corner and we’re doing them a favour’. Also, the same courts were busily sending so-called convicts to Australia for the most trivial of offences to colonise the place. “Steal a handkerchief or a loaf of bread and you will get seven years’ hard labour in Australia. Don’t steal the handkerchief but sign here and you will get seven years’ hard labour in the US. Makes no difference to us”?
I haven’t read the papers of the period for a while but I think they must have glossed over all of this because I haven’t picked up any whiff of it, so maybe they were complicit too. Mostly what you got was a full front page of the latest debates in Westminster, which were of no interest to anyone, details of which ships were expected to arrive from the US, the prices of food and other produce, what crimes had been reported, court appearances. No sense of outrage or concern about conditions, just ‘business as usual’.
I have quite a famous book by Michael Hechter ‘Internal Colonialism – the Celtic fringe in British national development 1536 – 1966’ but it really does not look at these issues, nor does Terence McDonough’s book on ‘Was Ireland a Colony’? You could open a whole new can of worms here! I get quite outraged thinking about these things but I am not thinking of starting up a new career as a political historian, so, ah well! I will have to leave this for the new crop of students enrolling at Boston College!
Eileen Breen
December 6, 2012 at 3:50 am
I read in one article that the indentured servant’s term was five years for an adult but it could, depending on a lot of factors, be increased. On the updated name list Ontario: Ellis Slavin, male found in PEI and New Brunswick in Canada. Too many choices for Catherine Rodgers. Name John Bole, not finding much but the name Boyle might give more choices in Letterkenny. I saw a Henry Boyle (not on our list) in Letterkeknny who went to Philadelphia. There was a John Boyle (on our list) in his tree but the dates are wrong. Jane Devlin, there is one listed in Ward 7 and one in Ward 17. One had a family and one was single and a death date in Philadelphia. That was just a quick look.
Mary Cornell
December 6, 2012 at 7:44 am
I have been off-course for the last couple of days because I found this great website, free Irish genealogy e-books. Lots of great reading. Tonight I read a book by George McAleer on the origin of the name, McAleer. Last night I read on the Allison family. It seems they were rather large landowners in Northern Ireland and the same in Chester County, PA. Likewise, a book on the Stewarts of Green Hill, Letterkenny, was full of detail. So far no connections with any of our group, but some of the books are just interesting to page through. There is a book on three hundred years of Londonderry written around 1800. A great deal of opinion is presented but it still has a lot of detail. The link I am sending is for the Irish Name histories page with the McAleer link.
http://irishfamilyhistories.blogspot.com/
I will comment on everything you guys have been finding in the next post. It seems some of our waxwings are refusing to give up their songs, but the ones that have do have wonderful tunes to sing.
PSSST. Eileen, I think we are but mere pawns in Don’s quest for his love, Eliza!
Eileen Breen
December 6, 2012 at 12:57 pm
I agree, Mary. I’ll keep looking for Miss McGhee for Don! Did you write to the Kerr family. His timeline doesn’t seem quite right. First to be indentured, then to go to California which probably took six months in a covered wagon each way, plus time and money to pan for gold, then to return to get married in PA. Why not stay in California? Mary, these books look great. Maybe they will shed some light on the Allisons and the Stewarts.
Don, for the sake of argument. What would be an advantage of going through a doctorate program versus a certificate program like Boston College? What project did you have in mind and what field would the degree be in? I’m assuming if I did a degree program I would have to start at the beginning. I have a bachelor’s degree but not in anything related to this.
Don MacFarlane
December 6, 2012 at 2:05 pm
I could give a very long-winded answer to this but I will try to keep it cogent and succinct, Eileen. I will also try to keep in mind that I am really only familiar with the UK system but I guess the same principles apply.
First off, and this is not intended as flattery, I believe you have the kind of mind that would lend itself exceedingly well to a doctorate and the fact you have a bachelor’s degree, irrespective of what it is in (but it is a necessary entrance requirement), gives you a headstart. Also, and more so in recent years, there is a realisation by universities that the route to a PhD is not always straight off the back of just having completed the primary degree – many years may have elapsed.
The criteria which have to be satisfied to be awarded the research degree that is the PhD or equivalent are a)the work is your own b) it is original c) it adds to what is already known about the chosen area d) it adds new knowledge to the subject area ie it is not merely ‘more of the same’ e) it demonstrates knowledge and application of scientific principles of investigation f)it is presented and written up in a coherent style with good command of language.
The point of all the above is that when and if meaning to utilise the doctorate as evidence of suitability for a higher position in employment then all of the above mental faculties can be taken as read. Anyone who has a doctorate can be assumed to be thorough, methodical, analytical, driven, self-motivating, open-minded etc. These mental faculties cannot be assumed to be present in someone who has a Certificate or some other qualification that has been taught – a doctorate has not been taught.
I’ll leave it at that momentarily until you come back to me for any further clarification you might need on any of the above or anything else. I do have other thoughts on where this all fits into what has evolved from the FTT which to my mind is quite amazing.
Eileen Breen
December 6, 2012 at 9:30 pm
That’s a start but don’t you have to pick a field of study. That’s where I’m confused. Thinking about it, I really like researching. I’m not sure I want to be a genealogist although it would be nice to know the tricks of the trade. I like Irish history and I am not so much interested in English/Irish Literature but having some background might be OK. But I am intrigued about what subjects or types of projects would come out of what we’re working on or to add more depth to the subjects.
Don MacFarlane
December 6, 2012 at 11:43 pm
I think how you come at it depends on a variety of factors such as – motivation for doing it, strength of interest and enthusiasm for the area of study, own personality type, availability and quality of support from experienced researchers, ongoing research programme within the academic institution in chosen research area.
Looking at Boston College for example, the doctoral supervisors in this area who might have relevance to Irish immigration appear to be Kevin Kenny
Click to access kennydissertations.pdf
and Kevin O’Neill
http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/schools/cas/history/faculty/alphabetical/oneill_kevin.html
An overview of the faculty can be found at http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/schools/cas/history/faculty/fields.html
If you were toying with taking this further and ‘the humour is on you now’ in the words of the old song, be aware that you have to enrol by 1st February if you had next Fall in mind to start. The thing to do would be to have a meeting with Professor Kenny or Professor O’Neill or both and to verbally present a proposed line of research.
Before I give this any further thought I suggest you go over the posts that were generated since Mary first brought up the subject of Duffy’s Cut. Make a list of the areas that are begging for further research and top slice the top three. See which of these connect best with the fields of interest of the Professors and make a pitch.
I know what areas I would have in mind but it would be better coming from you. When you are up against tight deadlines which, unless you are a super-organiser, you inevitably will be then your driving force will be the passion that you have for your self-chosen subject, not one that was given to you.
My choice of doctorate subject was at the third or fourth time of asking. After the first neurophysiology subject was proposed by my professor and rejected by me, the subject I had in mind to research was in neuropharmacology: lithium-induced endothelial stabilisation; then it was carbohydrate-deficient transferrin activity in maternal alcohol abuse; before plumping for a subject in the totally different area of social psychology – maternal identity and parental disposition. You get the drift, the choice will probably change several times before you decide.
I do think however that social history will be your forte, much as Vic has suggested, rather than genealogy per se which can be an important tool that you use but nothing more. I think I have rabbited on enough for now.
Don MacFarlane
December 6, 2012 at 4:03 pm
Another Name Source
Application to Vote Donegal 1829
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/raphoefreeholders.htm
Arrell/Arroll (Harold)
Baird
Boale (Boal)
Deyermott (Diermott)
Elliott
Ewing
Greer
Hastings
Hood
Lecky
McElwain
McGhee
Montgomery
Neilson
Risk
Roddy
Russell
Stewart
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 9:46 pm
Richard Patrick McCunney: Ontario.
Married to Bridget Kearney. Lots of photos and a family member’s diary of a trip to Ballybofey, Donegal. He was educated in Salamanca in Spain at Irish College. RCs were not allowed to be educated as a result of the Penal laws so children were sent out of the country. He was a teacher who started the Free Boys School in Philadelphia to educate RC Boys. He was naturalized on 25 Oct 1832. This seems kind of quick as it was usually a three-step process. He and his wife opened a girls’ dormitory for girls in their home. He was also a bookkeeper, accountant and clerk. He died without a will and his family had his will in probate. They disagreed at the low appraisal of three buildings he owned (valued at 68,000 total before probate), valued at half what they were worth. His daughter had to pay a $2,000 debt of his, 20 years after his death. A family member wrote a book about his life and there are several stories under his profile and photos. His portrait was painted by Thomas Scully. He was a member of St John the Evangelist Church. His wife was a niece of Col Anthony Gale and cousin of Sharp Delany b 1790. There might be a story about them? On one of the stories there is a book cited and a link: ‘Irish Relations: An Immigrant Tradition’ by Denis Clark.
Don MacFarlane
December 5, 2012 at 8:52 am
Great find and I will add this name to the waxwings. I really feel for the US visitors who appear to have been on something of a wild goose chase in Ballybofey. I think we could be doing them and others like them a great service after we have collated and analysed the findings of our waxwing search. Their arrival in Ballybofey must have been a real let-down for them as well as it is your archetypal one-horse town. I would like to invite the McCunnys onto our website so I will have to go back and read your instructions how to do that.
A number of things trouble me about their Odyssey. They went to a great deal of bother and expense and came up with very little, other than a ragbag of theories that probably don’t hold water. I will put that to one side for now and make a few points as they relate to our search. They seem to have been fixed on the name McCunny and they made no reference to main records such as Griffiths Evaluation, Tithe Applotment and Flaxgrowers List that list no McCunnys in Ireland for that period. They did not consider, except through a chance remark that was made to them, that it might have been a corruption of some other name. Or perhaps not, which would be even more mysterious. Richard was well-educated and a man of the world, not a bit subservient. Why then would he allow a ship’s bursar to spell his name wrong? Nonetheless the US researchers pricked their ears up and dropped in on a man that had a similar sounding name – not McCanny, the more obvious choice, but McConaghey that was way out. And so the sorry saga went on.
The long and short is that the McCunny search is an object lesson in the pitfalls that await casual family researchers and that is perhaps something we could address?
Eileen Breen
December 5, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Yes, I agree. BTW: When you put up the updated and alternative spellings for names yesterday under the old name we had no hints but when you changed the last name to McCanny that’s when the hints popped up. So great detective work! I felt bad for the person who was doing the research, he really had a run around. I haven’t finished updating from the new list but I’ll work on it tonight. If you want to write to the family click on one of the pictures and it will say who added the picture. Then click on that Ancestry address. I can see who the tree belongs to and let you know. I’m not sure how people find out as much as they do on Ancestry. My guess is that for this family, they went to a local library and found a historical book that listed biographies for his home town, the family scanned it and added it as a photo. Ancestry doesn’t always have the local histories so a trip to a local library room that has their town history, photos and city directories is probably a good way to find information.
Don MacFarlane
December 5, 2012 at 8:28 pm
I have figured that if recruiters were based in either or both market towns, Strabane (Tyrone) and/or Letterkenny (Donegal):
10 mile radius would have covered 50% of the waxwings
15 mile radius covered 75% of the waxwings
20 mi.e radius covered 100% of the waxwings
I can cover 20 miles comfortably in 2 hours on a bike. I reckon the same time for someone in a carriage or on horseback way back then.
I am going to have a fresh look at the Derry emigrants as our present lot have very little representation from there. It will not increase the overall numbers as I will ditch some of our present ones to make way.
Don MacFarlane
December 5, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Derry Waxwings
Ontario
McGaghery
Grelis
Prudence
Ellis
Adams
Glenn
Thats it, there are no more. It brings the total numbers to:
Derry 24 (29)
Donegal 54 (49)
Tyrone 36
Unknown 40
In brackets are revised numbers with new adjustment. Donegal waxwings to be dropped to make space are – John Woods, James Sproule, Eleanor Ryan, Peter Nelson, Nancy McShane.
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 10:25 am
FFT: In 1860s: Another reason to move to the Frontier:
Wages for a farmer in Ohio were $8.00 per month, while a farmer in Illinois made $12.00 per month. In mid-Atlantic States a worker would cost his employer $90.00 per year for health care, wages etc. while a slave would cost his employer $15.00 per year for the same expenses.
I was thinking with the little snippets of info we have we could write an article about the trends for jobs, immigration to certain areas, wages, states where they immigrated to, prevalence of churches and prevalence of names in certain areas as well as neighborhoods where the Irish lived in Philadelphia. The map you put up with the neighborhood is great.
The Kensington neighborhood is where all the mills, factories and jobs were. It was also a neighborhood where the Irish were. I saw an article that this neighborhood had the lowest amount of cholera in Philadelphia, the Northern Liberties neighborhood had the most. I didn’t get to check out this neighbohood yet. It would be interesting to compare these neighborhoods with the percentage of Irish in a neighborhood versus that of Cholera in each neighborhood.
On the Ancestry homepage for each tree there is a database where we can plug in the last name and the state and we could see which states have certain last names. For ex: we are seeing a lot of Presbyterian, Rrotestant, Methodist and Episcopal records in PA, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania. Also a lot of these folks emigrated from UK to Southern states before ending up in PA, OH, Ill, MO, TX.
I saw an article a few years ago in an Ancestry magazine (back issues are on Ancestry) on how recruiters actively advertised for workers for steel mills etc. Mary Balentine was on the Israel in 1837 and on the ship manifest the passengers were grouped by occupation: mechanics, laborers, farmers and children. It looked like maybe they might have been recruited. I also saw a database on-line for all the mills in Philadelphia, maybe by looking at these we might find something?
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 11:02 am
Loads of really good ideas there. I think this is where the faculties of intuition, empathy and lateral thinking can prove to be really powerful tools. Check out that Boston College site, Eileen, you’re ‘wasted’ as they say here.
What you are talking about here is the US side of the equation. I also will start to look at that quite soon for the spreadsheet, picking up on your ideas as well as my own. I have finished looking at the Irish side other than completing the vignettes.
BTW ‘wasted’ in NI means one of two things which have opposite meanings. One, being the one that was meant for you, means ‘full of unused potential’. The other meaning is ‘blind drunk’!
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 2:30 pm
Thanks, Don! I’ll check it out 🙂
Don MacFarlane
December 3, 2012 at 9:42 am
So far, they only cover the bits of Irish stuff that is known about them so hopefully the profiles will fill out with detail as and when more comes to light. I am about half way through the names at present, another week should do it.
I have decided to forget about including the Hairy Man story in ‘The Sea is Wide’ book. As soon as Mary has got a chapter ready on what we are doing here, and Liz Rushen has her Tasmanian chapter ready, I am going to push ahead for publication of that book. I feel that the US contribution will have completed the book as it was seriously imbalanced towards Australia and Canada.
As far as what happens after, I see the Waxwings project as a long-term one that should not be skimped over, and I was not joking. Someone or more than one of the three of you should think about doing something with it, a book or a PhD project. Several of the contributors to the ‘Sea is Wide’ did their PhD on genealogy as mature students (Carol Glover and Christine Wright) but this project of ours has much more substance. Count me out, I won’t be doing another PhD so it is up for grabs but I would be happy to give total support. Any takers? If any of you has an alma mater they are bound to be interested. You could even get Bill Watson to supervise (shudder at the thought)!
londonderry
December 3, 2012 at 7:45 pm
Eileen, Mary and Don, I am most interested and amazed in your research, tenacity and commitment. I am not interested in working toward a PhD at this stage of my life albeit I am very interested in this cultural area and always open to helping as I am can. I view your “Duffy’s Cut” effort as a very professional and comprehensive work and I encourage you to continue. So I am in a mode to encourage, contribute and offer comments here and there. I think your interest in honest research, objective reporting and a desire to provide accurate portrayal is very attractive to me. I am a participant in this venture not trying to be an author.
Eileen Breen
December 3, 2012 at 2:43 am
Archibald Ballantine, a farmer, immigrated from Tyrone. He was on the John Stamp. His teo sons were masons. There is a large family of his on-line. His sister Mary immigrated in July 1827 on the Israel. There is an interesting note on this manifest along the margin where they wrote: Farmers, mechanics, laborers and children. Mary’s husband William Pollock, also from Tyrone, was a farmer. He had an estate of $5000 at his death. I sent you all her obit (the best one I have ever read) and his will. The physician’s bill was for $1.25, Undertaker $22.00 and digging the grave $4.00. among other bills he owed. I’m still filling in all the information. They lived in Bradford, Chester, PA. One of his sons lived in Brandywine, Chester, PA. Several family members are researching this family. One of Archy’s sons had two children who died young, aged 9 and 12 years, not in the same year.
Eileen Breen
December 3, 2012 at 2:46 am
Mary Ballantine and husband William Pollock were Methodist. David Ballantine, Archy Ballantine’s son, was married in a Protestant Episcopal Church (maybe his wife’s family parish).
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 2:00 am
Archibald Ballantine Sr (John Stamp) had a son Archy: He was a mason. I can’t find him in PA. I saw entries for Canada? He also has a son John. I found a naturalization document and a passenger arrival from Liverpool to Philadelphia: J.J. Cooke and McCorkle line in 1850’s The natuaralization was 1854. I’m not sure if it’s him. I saw death/ church records for a few John Ballantine’s in Philadelphia, Pittsburg, PA. Then a census for East Bradford, Chester, PA where his father lived. I also saw connected to this tree the names: Campbell, Stewart, Aikin all from Chester, Co, PA. I saw the most records for Archy Sr. I’m not sure if there is a story here other than they came here and bought land. Some of the family they married into seem more interesting but not much of a story. Maybe time to move on.
Mary Cornell
December 4, 2012 at 5:37 am
Hi Eileen
I am in awe of your Ancestry skills. I had a soft spot for Archy Ballantine. Both father and son were on the JS and both were named Archy. Just looking at the ages, could one of them have been Mary’s father? Both are in the 1840 Census for East Bradford. Could Mary have been living next door to her father and not her brother. I missed her age somewhere. What is strange, with your information on Archy, I went to findagrave and there I found pretty much the entire Balentine family in the Grove Methodist Cemetery, but none of the Pollocks, even though they were also buried in the same cemetery. I suppose this is just an example of finding all of the puzzle pieces. Of course they can never be in the same place.
I found a William Barber who was living in Washington, Illinois for at least 20 years. He is an age match for our William Barber. I can’t find anything else so far. But, I am going to turn to our greatest resource. Eileen, do you think you can check and see if someone is researching William on Ancestry, also. I came up with zero.
In this day and age, I hate to think how much such a beautiful obituary would cost today. The expenditures for Archy reminded me of the hospital bill for my mother when she gave birth to one of my brothers in 1962. Delivery and four day hospital stay, $98.00.
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 8:37 am
I second the comment about Eileen’s Ancestry skills. She seems to have a natural talent and she could soon take up a second career as a professional genealogist. I have been too persistent with this I am sure, to the point of being annoying, but I still think she should enrol at Boston College and take this further. That way she can consolidate even further her Celtic identity which is already very strong.
No one seems to want to take up my challenge to take on a PhD, unless you will of course. BTW It was never my intention to undertake that doctorate during the last third of my career. I didn’t need it, it didn’t advance my career as I was already established and I did it purely and simply to improve my skills in a particular area. I got no financial or other assistance from my employer who are probably still oblivious.
I embarked on a Postgrad Certificate, on top of my day job, for one year meaning to leave it at that. I did another year and that became a Diploma. I did another year and that became a Masters. My supervisor suggested I do a PhD. I dismissed that idea as nonsense but then the idea grew on me. My supervisor took a nervous breakdown and I have heard nothing from him since! I got a different supervisor in a different University who took the hump with me after she was told she had messed up with me and she would not attend my graduation! A different lecturer who took me briefly under his wing died unexpectedly and suddenly in his late 40s from a probable heart attack!
So you see,and according to the Ulster saying, “what is for you won’t pass you”!
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 8:55 am
Hi Mary,
Mary, Archy Sr’s sister, was married to William Pollock. Archy had three sons John b 1923, Archy and David. Mary died young,aged 51. The family tree has a lot on William Pollock who had the medical bill. I think we have his tombstone and hers. According to one of the censuses, Mary lived next to her brother. The family info said it was her father but the age wasn’t right for the father. I don’t think Archy Sr’s father (also named Archy or Archibald) came over, or at least I haven’t found it yet.
Talking about the medical bill, I think your Mom got a good deal. I can’t imagine what they would pay today if it wasn’t for insurance! Before you talked about looking for patterns on the manifests. I was reading an ancestry magazine and the article said to look at who else is listed on the records such as witnesses, neighbors, etc. Maybe we’ll come up with something. I was also thinking of looking up the origins of the names, maybe that might give us a clue?
BTW: If anyone wants to add to the trees or change anything, please feel free.
The link about the Boston College program intrigues me. What would could I do with this degree? I appreciate you offering to be a mentor. I could expand my horizons!
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 9:14 am
I have some familiarity with what is entailed in further education at mature student level. I supervised various Masters at the University of Ulster and also a Theology Masters (you couldn’t make this up!) at Cambridge. I also supervised as part of an exchange scheme a number of Masters students at Marywood University in Scranton PA. Two of the students I worked close with were Ed Sipler from Philly who did a Masters and Deb Wilson from New Jersey who did a PhD. Both are currently working in Northern Ireland and weirdly neither has Ulster ancestral roots.
I must say the Boston College course does look very good, much better than comparable ones here. What I like about it is the way it is presented and described as a literature degree rather than an Irish Studies degree which otherwise would seem too narrowly focussed. Also it is a very nice mix of Arts and Science with a combo of literature and research methodology. I have to think it would teach any student a whole new array of skills that would adapt to any occupation, existing or new. I believe my own Masters and PhD fundamentally changed the way I did my work and made me much more analytical. I cant say what that degree would mean as regards self-advancement but it would most certainly enhance any personal prospectus or CV (curriculum vitae) as it is called in the UK.
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 6:27 pm
BTW: Mary and Vic this course is on line you can do it with me!
OMG! I almost fell off the chair! What possessed you to supervise a theology masters student! 😉
FFT: a few topics came to mind:
Unusual relationships: We have a history of two first cousins marrying and needing special permission from the RC church. Also children on ship manifests accompanied by relatives and not their parents? We also have two brothers marrying two sisters.
Another topic might be woman laborers on some of the ships. A large number of single women were on the ship and there were a large number of child laborers. The topic could shed a light on children and women’s rights in US at the turn of the century as well as servants. In one family they had servants.
I also thought that a story could be about the role of the church and how it served the people in the community, not telling what they believed in, but their unusual and usual roles in the community. For example, Geneva College during the Civil War, and how it was used in the Underground Rail Road, weddings, funerals, social gatherings, Sunday School etc. Some of the obits, tombstones and death records.
The role of the family: “supported each other financially, education – were tutors for their relatives’ children, supported their parents and orphaned children, worshipped together, worked together, witnessed legal documents, supported the same political party, joined the same fraternal lodges and migrated together.” From Family Chronicle magazine (Feb 2009). What Is Family? Genealogical Definition.
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 9:21 am
It occurred to me that then and probably still today crap doctors are the best friends of undertakers!
londonderry
December 4, 2012 at 9:48 pm
Eileen, I must have missed the link to the Boston College course. Would you send it to me please?
londonderry
December 7, 2012 at 2:52 pm
Eileen, I offer a perspective from another point of view. I am not going to argue against anything Don or Mary have offered previously.
FYI, I spend lots of my time helping people get jobs. I’ve been doing it for four years now. I don’t charge and I have over 50 years of USAF and private business experience. I genuinely enjoy finding people’s talents then matching them to the right opportunity. I am finding lots of folks who are getting degrees in areas they think are fun or in areas where their counsellors provided bad advice. So my advice is, don’t pursue a degree for its own sake, work towards a job that you will enjoy and advances the ball for humanity. You can’t imagine how many people are getting degrees which are not marketable or in areas that don’t fit their talents or preferences. They are also miffed that with their degree they still have no future. My son dated a girl at Duke who got a degree in Art History. There must be at least five jobs in this country in this area.
I don’t have a PhD but I have completed two masters and all the course work for a PhD. The USAF would not pay for the dissertation, which turned out to be a blessing in my later career. The PhD is a long commitment and it should lead you somewhere worthwhile. I have a friend who is a triathlete and who is married to an Olympic-class race-walker. Their entire life (time, $, food, etc.) is tied up in their own training. To my mind it is somewhat selfish. They have little time for other ventures in life. All I am saying is to launch into a PhD is a similar venture and should be taken only because it leads you to a place in life where you want to be.
Now I am very interested in the work that you three have accomplished. I am amazed at the innovative work and research so far on Duffy. I don’t consider myself a genealogy expert but I am not inexperienced and I have been doing it for over 45 years. I am amazed at what you are finding on websites and pass them along to the group that I have founded here in Dayton.
Don MacFarlane
December 7, 2012 at 5:05 pm
Vic, I liked your imagery of the azimuth, a term I had not heard of before. I have put an image of it at the top of the Archive page. I would prefer to put it at the top of the Duffy Page but the spreadsheet is already there. I think the imagery of the azimuth is very apt for the heart-searching Eileen is having to do currently.
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 9:33 am
William Barber:
I saw a few trees on Ancestry with this name, nothing promising. Only one had the name with information and I can look more later today. One tree had a town identified for a William Barber but no Alexander was listed with him – the town was Newtonstewart in Tyrone. This family immigrated to Missouri, Michigan and New York. I wasn’t sure if there were a lot of Barber families in that town. There was also a 1850 census with a William Barber and family but no Alexander listed. The job was “Confectioner”. I think I saw other censuses with this occupation. Our William was a laborer on the John Stamp. I also saw a passport dated 16 July 1857 for a William Barber for Berks County, PA.
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Talking about soft spots, and I think we all have some and they all seem to be different, mine are:
All ‘orphan’ juveniles – Sam Kyle, William Elliott, the Risks, Thomas Maguire, Ann Riddle.
All ‘elderly’ – the Montgomery couple.
Eliza McGhee – I think I’m in love with her!
Eileen Breen
December 2, 2012 at 2:32 am
There is an interesting profile on Samuel Day’s son John who had a son George who married Hannah Mitchell (Jane Aikin’s daughter). George was a miller and an elder for the church. His grandfather Joseph (also another profile under his name) was an innkeeper, tavern owner and farmer. He left his sons two hundred acres of land in Jefferson County, Ohio. He was elected as a house appraiser in 1803 and 1805 election in Jefferson County, Ohio. The election was held in his home. Now we have elections in public buildings like schools and firehouses but back then, in small towns, elections were held in someone’s home.
Mary Cornell
December 2, 2012 at 8:02 am
Two more possible waxwings-
The Philadelphia Directory 1833- http://www.archive.org/stream/philadelphiadire1833phil#page/n73/mode/2up
William Barber Cordwainer
J McAleer Fruiter
Don MacFarlane
December 2, 2012 at 9:29 am
I hope you like some of the vignettes that are on the new waxwing page on the website. I thought you might like to get your teeth sunk into the following as there looks to be some interesting back-stories to be discovered with them:
James Ferguson
Andrew Fergy
John Ewing*
William Elliott*
William Diven*
James Devaney*
John Creighton*
Sally Brisland
Catherine Allison*
The ones with asterisks are off the John Stamp and can be left for now as more info may very well come to light, except for Elliott as that story has enough going for it already to warrant a bit more digging. Perhaps you could stick Ferguson, Fergy, Allison, Elliott, Risk and McKendrick up on Ancestry to see if you can get a bite?
Eileen Breen
December 2, 2012 at 1:19 pm
All the names from the four ships are on Ancestry. I started with the John Stamp and the Prudence because they had laborers on them. The Ontario had only one laborer and the Asia had none. I can look at these names to see if there are any hints. I remember looking at these names and a lot of them had too many possibilities.
Catherine Allison on someone’s tree was married to a John Doak but both were on the same ship. I think I tried to write to the family but I didn’t get a response. This family was in Canada.
I tried to check out the Brislands but with no luck. Mary thought that going in order of how the ships came in might spark something, also to look at names that are the same. The ships came in the order: 14 May 1832, Ontario; 18 June 1832, Asia; 23 June 1832, John Stamp; and 19 July 1832, Prudence.
Looking back:
Donaghy: There was a woman on Ancestry named Anne Symes researching the name but it didn’t work out.
Elliot: I found a few choices, one in Philadelphia and Lancaster plus a few other choices.
Diven: Minnesota in 1870;1877 in Philadelphia; 1832 in New York Cty 1832 and near Gettysburg.
John Brisland: 1840, Locust Ward, Philadelphia and a few other choices also.
Fergy: I didn’t find anything for him.
On the Asia there is a Hunter Ferguson. I didn’t see anything on James or Hunter Ferguson but I didn’t run the names together. I’ll check them out again.
Don MacFarlane
December 2, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Thanks for that. There may be an element of waiting-game to be considered with Ancestry and as long as the names are on it that is as much as one can do for now.
Putting a different kind of shape on the data other than just to have it on the spreadsheet and to have it in a text-based format might bring an extra benefit. We can wait and see. As far as I know, Google and other search-engines don’t pick up on spreadsheets. They are all geared to picking up keywords from text. Hopefully,for example, someone who punches in keywords such as ‘William Elliott AND Inishowen AND Donegal’ might be directed by Google to this site.
Eileen Breen
December 2, 2012 at 10:59 pm
FFT: If you want them directed here we could add a profile under “Mother”: John Stamp, Asia, Ontario, Prudence – one for each tree, so if they look for the family tree your address could appear and you could invite them?
Eileen Breen
December 3, 2012 at 1:09 pm
Usually, if you look at a person, say on one of the ships, you can look at the family trees. If you type in the name on the search bar on their tree then you can click on it and see if the information fits. If you have a question about that name you can look up on the right corner of their profile page – like mine says celticknot226 – and click on their Ancestry address. You can then write to them. If they want to reply you will see it on your ancestry email. You’ll see on your toolbar a box that looks like a letter, click on that to get your email. I save emails I like, then it’s easier to click on their ancestry profile and tree from there, especially if I’m a repeat customer looking at photos or information. I often look at the family tree search bar. I think it’s under “search” on the tool bar. Just type in a persons info and it will tell you who may have that name in their tree. Just click on that or if you see a photo you can also click on that. Also there are tutorials on how to use Ancestry. It’s on your Ancestry home page. That’s how I learned about it. They have a lot of articles and small videos on how to do something. Also there is an ancestry magazine on-line that’s free. I used to like this magazine but my local bookstore doesn’t carry it anymore. There are also a lot of genealogy magazines. I saw one from the UK.
Eileen Breen
December 3, 2012 at 1:25 pm
I forgot to answer you question!
When we first put up each tree, in order to add the people I had to start with a “Parent”. Because all names are listed separately I put “Mother and Father John Stamp”, “Mother Asia”, “Mother Ontario” and “Mother Prudence”. When I set up my personal family tree I started with my parents. You can include a photo for the site. It will say “You are the first photo”. I was thinking if anyone was looking for these trees we could put the Entrylevelderry genweb address under the “mother” profile so maybe someone would see it. Also you can start a thread where you can ask a question and maybe you could refer them to your site. You can ask a question about an individual or put John Stamp, Prudence, Ontario or Asia as the topic. So when someone is looking under those names they will see your ancestry address. Then you can start a discussion with that person, then you could invite them to your site. As you say “Clear as mud?”
Eileen Breen
December 3, 2012 at 1:31 pm
On Ancestry, the Member Family Trees are under the “search” tab on the tool bar, the Learning tab on the tool bar has the tutorials etc..
Eileen Breen
December 3, 2012 at 1:46 pm
The thread is under Collaborate on the top tool bar. Also under the same tab scroll down to the “recent member connect activity” tab and you can see who is looking at the site. You probably can click on their ancestry ID from there and write to them.
I was thinking about writing to the Ballantine family. The only pain about Ancestry’s email is that you can forward the emails to another member. If you want to try the email under ancestry you can practice sending me an email or Mary and Vic. We can send you an email back. Then go into your email and click onto the ‘my ancestry’ email address and you can see my profile and you can connect to the “family trees”: John Stamp Family Tree, Ontario family tree etc.. or my profile page from there.
Eileen Breen
December 3, 2012 at 2:01 pm
FFT: Under: Type in address bar: Ship John Stamp, Ship Ontario, Ship:Prudence, Ship: Asia. Then on top tool bar it says comments. Add the subject then text below. We could talk about our project, the ship and you can add your Entry Level Derry site link.
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 8:24 am
To tidy things up and to put to bed the annoying errors of transcription of the Transcribers’ Guild, I have gone through the manifests for one last time and offer the following corrections, confirmations and additions:
Ontario May 1832
Eilis Slaven
Catherine Rodgers
Richard McCanny
John Bole
Jane Devlin
Asia June 1832
Patrick McKeogh
The Rea family
Elizabeth McKnight
The Rusk family
James Nance
Peter Diermott
John Carland
James McKenny
Eliza McNamee
William Hill
Alice McSwine
The Sterlings
John Stamp
Margaret Sherrard
Michael Farren
Prudence July 1832
Richard Wier
The Morrisons
William Balentine
Samuel Adams
The Kernaghans
Charles Breadin
William Mitchell
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 9:37 am
Do you want me to change the last name on ancestry or just put alternate name then when we search we can look under both names? Can you please leave the above post up for a few days until we make the changes and look up the names. Thanks.
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 9:50 am
Perhaps if you put the corrected name in each case with the mispelt one as an alternative?
For Ardstraw Parish, where Newtownstewart is, a Matthew Barber was listed on the Flaxgrowers List 1796 (that name only). Griffiths Evaluation (1848) has a Matthew and a John.
Eileen Breen
December 4, 2012 at 9:44 am
FFT: I saw a spelling of Sterling as Stirling. Was the Rusk family the Risk family? William Balentine on the Prudence could he be related to Archy Ballentine? Some of the family trees had the spelling Ballentine and Balentine? Is there any easy way to find duplicate last names on the ships, would the spread sheet list all the names from all the ships or just one ship at a time?
Don MacFarlane
December 4, 2012 at 10:43 am
I would say that Risk is actually Rusk (in which case the name can be narrowed down to Taughboyne) or possibly even Rush (in which case it can be narrowed down to Urney). Check the manifest and see what you think. Risk is in both those places and also in Fahan.
Names I have found to appear in a different form were:
Aiken (Eakin)
Allison (Alleson)
Barber (Barbour)
Boal (Bole)
Carlin (Carlan)
Cook (Cooke)
Davis (Davies)
Deery (Dearey)
Devany (Devaney)
Diermott (Dermott)
Doak (Doack or Doach)
Donaghy (Donaghey)
Fergy (Fergie or Fargg)
Fullerton (Fullarton)
Gibbons (Gibbens)
Gilfillen (Gilfillan or Gilfilland)
Greer (Grier)
Griffen (Griffin)
Harold (Harrold or Harrell or Arol)
Kernahan (Kernaghan)
Lecky (Leckey)
Livingstone (Levingston)
Leitch (Leech)
Lemon (Leamon or Loman)
McCrory (McRory)
McGettigan (McGittigan)
McGhee (McGee)
McIlhenny (McIlheaney)
McKenny (McKinny)
McKendrick (McRondneck)
McSwine (McLaven)
McMenamin (McMenamen)
McPhilemy (McPhelimy)
Nelson (Nielson)
Nicholl (Nickle)
Patchell (Patchill or Putetill)
Riddell (Riddle)
Ritchie (Richey)
Scallan (Scallin)
Sherrard(Sherwood)
Shields (Sheil)
Skilton (incorrect)
Sproule (Sproul)
Stirling (Sterling)
Weir (Wier)
Wylie (Wiley)
Who is to say in each case which is right and which is wrong as conventions have changed as well as there being transcription errors. Names that would appear to us to be mispelt have appeared in that form or even more bowdlerised in the original Planter documents.
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 11:55 pm
Hannah Forsythe Aiken:
Someone on Ancestry states her mother may have the last name Jackson. This came from John Calvin Aikin, a descendant. I found a few Aikin photos on Ancestry and I put them on our site. Hannah Forsythe, according to the family history, may be related to President Andrew Jackson. The site, The Hermitage, is named after Andrew Jackson’s estate in Tennessee. I can’t find her name listed in his ancestry. Jackson had two siblings that died in childhood. He never had children, he married his first wife before she was divorced and he adopted his wife’s nephew. He had a Indian child who was found on the battlefield, who was taken to live with them and who was educated by them. Only one of his adopted children had children so descendants with the name Jackson are limited. He had over three hundred slaves and two of them were named Hannah Jackson. The Hermitage site is interesting and shows the mansion, grounds, slave names and slave quarters. The only connection to Philadelphia is Andrew Jackson’s adopted son, Andrew, who was his wife’s nephew (Andrew Jr’s wife was from Philadelphia). Andrew Jackson Sr’s wife also had extended family and there are two photos on the Hermitage site of Hannah Jackson, the slave. I wrote to the Hermitage Museum to see if they know anything more.
Eileen Breen
December 1, 2012 at 3:02 am
Hannah and James Aikin’s grandson, Knox, lived on a 160 acre farm in Colorado. There’s a great photo of the farm on their grandson’s (Knox M. Aikin) profile page. A family history (Obit) relates that they left Colorado and traveled in a covered wagon for two months to go to Midfield, TX. He was a farmer and a school teacher and his wife was a Sunday school teacher. I can’t find if Knox owned the land in Colorado or TX yet or if James Rowland Aikin owned his farm in Ohio. I thought James owned a farm in Beaver but I can’t find it, only that they moved to Ohio and bought the farm according to family history. His son John married and stayed in Philadelphia at that time but later went to Ohio.
Don MacFarlane
December 1, 2012 at 9:15 am
Waxwing Commentaries
I have started cataloguing the names on a separate DuffyTemp page with a brief summary of the limited information that is known yet about them. That might be easier to follow than the spreadsheet. I have also changed my avatar to a rather Presbyterian-looking waxwing as I was starting to get fed up looking at my ugly mug! With its very direct stare, wearing its identity or its plumage in a way it could not be missed, fiercely guarding its find of berries, how could it be anything other than Presbyterian!
Mary Cornell
December 1, 2012 at 7:06 pm
With this latest list of waxwings, I have been going through the partial 1831 trade occupations list (cities only) found on Jane Lyons site, and only two appeared. The name Elder appeared twice in Carndonagh, Donegal. One was a tobacconist and the other was a grocer. The name McGettigan was found once in Letterkenney. This particular McGettigan was a victualler (tavernkeeper?). There were several names from the passenger lists that occur, but outside of the parameters that we have been using. Is it worthwhile to look further names for others on the list? It does show a partial listing of surnames in selected cities that match names on the passenger lists, though not waxwings.
The site also has what appears to be the entire Lewis Topographical Dictionary. The extremely detailed descriptions might help to narrow down certain locations.
BTW LOL Only Don can imagine a bird being Presbyterian!
Don MacFarlane
December 1, 2012 at 8:45 pm
I’m not familiar with the Lyons site but I do have business owners highlighted in the spreadsheet in the Slaters column. I count 23 of those names and from the right localities had businesses, though more than likely not the waxwing families, otherwise why emigrate?
My reason for looking at businesses was to figure who could, if only by association perhaps with more successful relatives, have managed to make a living other than from hard toil or from the land. Also, who could have managed to put enough funds aside ahead of the voyage to give a cushion or slushfund once at their destination. Likewise, the same kind of reasoning would apply to identifying landowners with the same surnames.
On the other hand, the Flaxowner Lists would identify the poorer people who needed subsidies to purchase their flax, spinning wheels or looms. Someone on the landowner list should not be on the Flaxowner List by that reckoning. I think I have found the Flaxowner Lists to be particularly useful, albeit it is 1796 and therefore refers possibly to parents rather than the waxwings themselves. As far as I understand Griffiths, that list may not necessarily cover sub-tenants, and the Flaxowner lists can pick up on that blind spot. Almost all of the waxwing surnames are on the Flaxowner lists.
BTW I am absolutely gobsmacked (Ulster word for bedazzled) with the material that Eileen has been uncovering in Ancestry. She seems to be a wizard at it and it goes well over my head. I take back the mealy-mouthed remarks I made earlier about Ancestry, obviously it is a treasure trove. I think any contacts that Eileen makes through Ancestry could be invited to post comments on this website if they so wish?
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 8:30 pm
We just received a note on Ancestry from Ellen Stinson and Thomas McQuillin’s grand daughter, Marge. She gave me her email address and her cousin Liz who is from the McQuillin/Diamond side of the family (I got most of their family history from Liz and Marge). Marge says she was a member of St Anne’s parish in Philadelphia where Philip Duffy is buried and she was aware of the Duffy’s Cut story. She didn’t add anything new to the mix but extended her hand out if we need any information or if we would like to write to them for information. I sent a thank you note back.
The Stinsons were not on the ships but their son Thomas came in 1830 and Roseanne was on the ship in 1832. As stated before, the Stinsons were first cousins to the McQuillins. Ellen Stinson and Thomas McQuillin’s sons were all in the Civil War for the Union side and their history is on Ancestry on our site. I don’t know if we would get another story out of this that we haven’t covered already but it seems the Civil war keeps coming up as a theme. We just need to reinvent it with a variation on a theme or move on? Their tree is pretty extensive, the sons were all successful in the war and the subsequent family seems to be doing well.
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 4:59 am
Aikins family, Bellfontaine, Logan, Ohio:
Bellfontaine, Ohio in 1846 had 610 residents, four churches, one newspaper and eleven stores. The population boomed in the late 1800s to 4,238 residents because of two rail road lines. By 1886 they had three newspapers, eleven churches and two banks. The largest employer, a chair manufacturing company, had sixty four employees. It is known for having the shortest street in the US and the first concrete paved street – McKinley Street – in the US. By 1840 the last group of Native Americans were removed from their lands in Ohio.
In 1861 when the Civil war broke out most Ohioans were in favor of unification but the Copperheads were Peace democrats who opposed reuniting the nation. Many residents of Ohio came from Southern slave-owning states and emigrated to Ohio in the early 1800s but they had relatives still in the southern states on the Confederate side. They were afraid that President Lincoln would free slaves who would come to Ohio and take their jobs away from them. They agreed with the Southern view that if a state voluntarily joined the war effort they could leave the Union at will. They opposed the war when in 1863 President Lincoln signed The Enrollment Act forcing Ohio men to be conscripted to fight for the Union cause. They didn’t want to leave their families unsupervised while they were serving in the war. Over 260 regiments from Ohio were involved in the Civil war a d Generals Grant, McClellan and Sherman were all from Ohio.
Railroads and steam boats brought people into the interior at a rapid rate and men on the Frontier in Ohio worked the land. Often they had crops as well as livestock in case the crops failed and the livestock could be falled back on. A farmer could clear one acre of wilderness in one week but most farmers could not keep up with this pace and life on the Frontier was back-breaking work. Families had to not only clear the land but also build their log cabin homes. Further, they had to protect their family from Native Americans defending the loss of their territory, as well as from wildlife such as bears and wolves that preyedd upon their livestock. Once the farm was cleared and established, it was five years before the farm would turn a profit. The Aikin family cleared eighty acres of forest for their farm.
Women on the Frontier in Ohio were involved in child rearing, farming, making supplies for the family, making cloth and sewing clothing for the family. When the husband died she often stayed on the farm with assistance from her sons. Often the woman left an urban area to move into the wilderness. She experienced hardship working on the family farm, she was isolated and she had to leave her possessions behind. As the wilderness was modernized into towns, the woman in the community became involved in the Temperance Association, Abolition Movement and Prison Reform Movement.
Geneva College where the Aikin grandchildren attended was founded by the Reformed Presbyterian Church in Northwood, Ohio. The students of this college were called engineers in the Underground Railroad. They were sympathetic northerners who assisted runaway slaves from southern states by providing shelter. Often a slave didn’t get their freedom by entering a free state and a slave owner could reclaim his slaves. The Presbyterians in the early 1800s were the largest denomination and the Civil war divided its members. By war’s end the Presbyterian church was reunited.
In Ohio, politics was fiercely debated with all parties represented. In early nineteenth century the feud between the Federalist Party and the Democrat-Republican Party delayed statehood. The working agricultural class favored the democratic party while the middle-to-upper class was in the Republican Party. President Lincoln was from the Whig Party that pushed for Ohio to become industrialized. By the mid-nineteenth century Republicans demanded to limit slavery while Democrats opposed a strong federal government. The Whig Party dissolved and it was accused of being a member of the Native American Party known as the Know-Nothings. It was most influential in the native-born Protestant community in the 1850s. The Know-Nothings supported the idea that newcomers were unwelcome.
The South was dependent on slave labor for it’s livelihood but the North had its solution to cheap labor – five million European immigrants who came to America between 1815 – 1860. The majority of the immigrants from Ireland who fled during the Great Famine were seen by the Know-Nothings as ‘unfunded, uneducated and,to American eyes, uncouth’. Further their platform in the 1856 election was ‘sending back all foreign paupers’. President Lincoln stated “I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can anyone who abhors the oppression of negroes be in favor of degrading classes of white people? As a nation, we began by declaring that all men are created equal. When the Know-Nothings get in control, it will read all men are created equal except Negroes, and Foreigners and Catholics”.
In 1854 President Lincoln signed the Kansas – Nebraska Act where states on the Frontier, not the federal government, could decide for themselves if they wanted slavery. The frontier states were bitterly divided and there was loss of life. Lincoln advocated for prevention of the spread of slavery into the Frontier and he pleaded with Americans to abolish slavery but he refused to blame Southern states for it.
Mary Cornell
November 30, 2012 at 6:46 pm
More questions than answers. To the question of how the Aikens were able to afford land also goes back to how were they able to afford passage for such a large family to sail together. I doubt that children of twelve and under went for free.
Moving into the west and the wilderness was a dangerous proposal for the immigrants. Dying was a very real possibility, whether it was from illness or Native American discontent over their presence. I do not think that their deaths would have been recorded except in family journals and on tombstones. I also do not picture the census-taker travelling into the wilderness to record a family for the census. Lumber camps would also not likely be visited by the census taker. This is also not taking into account the many fur trappers etc who traveled the waterways. So what we have is a substantial portion of the population who were not counted during the censuses.
Vic Barnett
December 1, 2012 at 1:23 pm
As I write, I am listening to the History Channel on how the “spirits industry” was initiated by the Scotch-Irish. How they moved after the Rev War to areas around Pittsburg and the Whiskey Rebellion resulted. This resulted in a Government push for taxes which was just the opposite of what the Ulster Scots loved….freedom. They moved to parts south, especially Kentucky, and it further goes on to tell how to make a ‘thump barrel’, along with how to prevent the “puke problem” in the still, and on and on. I am amazed at how the Scotch Irish get almost unanimous credit for moonshine, country music, marijuana and NASCAR to name a few.
One of Don’s degrees, if I recall, is cultural identity. The things most remembered about the Ulster-Scots are not the common denominators that I associate with them as an Ulster Scot, even though I like a strong whiskey, the uniqueness of a good country song (I’m thinking ‘All my X’es are from Texas’), never tried drugs and I like hard-fought football and to some extent car racing.
My azimuth in this diatribe is that these folk have often been mis-described and the common denominators are at a much more general level. For example, we are not just talking about just Presbyterian; we found many Baptists and Methodists churches in Northern Ireland. Bill and Hillary loved to come to NI to get Protestant funds. I forget which, but one of the middle counties has a Bill Clinton museum. We are putting people in categories that really were best described more broadly as being alive, risk takers, inspired in different endeavors, had a dislike/mistrust of power and driven by sometimes worthy ventures like the principles of freedom in our constitution and,regrettably, some who selfishly held slaves in their own self interests.
With all the breadth and depth of your research, I don’t think this story has been told except for a few such as Senator Webb. I encourage you to consider the possibility of a book that more accurately captures these broader cultural descriptors.
Londonderry
November 29, 2012 at 11:08 pm
Regarding the move to Ohio, the settlers came to find land. After the Revolutionary War, the Congress granted land to soldiers. Virginia as we know it today was pretty much taken, especially the land worth anything for farming. Virginia in the colonial days didn’t look like it does now; it included Kentucky and some of Ohio. If you draw a line, the area south of the Wheeling line to the Ohio River was considered Virginia. So the Continental Congress gave parcels of land in what is now Kentucky and South Ohio to soldiers and their widows.
On another but related note, Daniel Boone was a teamster in the Battle of Fort Pitt before the Revolutionary War and had explored regions in Kentucky and in this South Ohio area. My point is that he likely shared his knowledge of this land with soldiers that he rubbed shoulders with in the war. So he lit the flame of exploring and moving to better land in the soldiers and their descendents. The South Ohio land was also very much Shawnee Indian, including Tecumseh, so there were many fights and battles after the Revolutionary War. These Indians continued to try to hold their homeland forcibly, moving westward until they lost the Battle of Fallen Timbers in Indiana/Ohio.
So in summary,in the pre-Revolutionary War timeframe we saw nuclear families in regions like PA moving down the Shenandoah Valley southward, then after the Revolutinary War the vectors turned westward to the benefit of the whites, but to the detriment of the Indians. East Ohio is very poor land until you get to east of Columbus in the middle of the state. In that region, you start to find moraine-plowed land rich for farming and settling. Some settlers stayed in areas around Zanesville, of Zane Grey fame, like my wife’s Border Riever family but it was very poor land and only good for timber or ceramics.
My long answer to your short question is to say that the land offered opportunities in the 1800s and the push continued into the mid-western states like Illinois and Iowa. The Ohio population radically expanded in this period and it was made the 17th state in 1803 as a part of the NW Ordinance.
Don MacFarlane
November 29, 2012 at 11:54 pm
I’m wondering what the Aikins did for four years in PA before they made the move for Ohio. Where they just accumulating capital, getting orientated and figuring what to do next, having found that PA did not meet their expectations and needs? BTW the distance from Philly to mid-Ohio is about the the same as the length of Ireland? Not tnat insurmountable, except I guess there were no proper roads and by then the railroad was only about half-finished.
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 5:18 am
They lived in Philadelphia for one year then moved to Beaver County PA and bought an eighty acre farm. They stayed there for four years then moved to Ohio and bought a farm. Pittsburg is in Beaver County and there is a large Presbyterian community there. After the church was established in Philadelphia with four synods they spread to Pittsburg, PA. I saw a hint on Ancestry under James Rowland Aikin that there is an Aikin family from Antrim but not with the same first names as this family. The townland was Ballyclan, Killead, Antrim. The head of the family was George Aikin. He was a farmer. I didn’t see this name listed with our group but I was wondering if this could be our Ballyhallan – Ballyhalion (Donegal) or Ballyclan, Antrim?
Don MacFarlane
November 30, 2012 at 8:13 am
This is the problem with emigrants off the ship Ontario. Their county of origin is not recorded and what we have instead is erroneous townlands such as Ballhall and Prossgear (Rossgeir). There was also an Aiken family from a Ballyhall in County Down so there will often be a ‘take your pick’ possibility and there were over a hundred Aikin households in Ulster at the time. As Vic says, a scientific approach requires a conclusion to be both ‘refutable and verifiable’ – seek to prove it wrong rather than to prove it right he says. If it cannot be proven wrong and all other possibilities are discounted the conclusion must be right. That is the general idea but it is rarely perfectly achievable and tnat is why statistics was invented.
The Ohio Aikins puzzle me still and thanks for your very enlightening account of the Frontier development and the major part that Lincoln and other Ohioans had to play in that. Why leave a well-established eighty acre farm in PA for eighty acres of back-breaking wilderness in Ohio and the hazards of Indians and bears to contend with as well? Also, how did they acquire eighty acres of good farm in PA when they had no land in Ireland and they were presumably not wealthy on leaving Ireland?
Don MacFarlane
November 30, 2012 at 8:47 am
Another thing that bothers me and I can say this as a lapsed Presbyterian. Presbyterians, and probably various others, ‘planted’ Ulster, and that of course means displanted, robbed or displaced native Irish, often and necessarily with considerable force. If you look at photos of their weapons of ‘defence’ such as snapchances, halberts and pikes it would make you shudder.
Then we have the account on the American Frontier, including Ohio, of the self-same Presbyterians being very squeamish about the rights and freedoms of negroes (who have already been displaced from their homelands in Africa generations before). All this time, however, they are not the slightest bit bothered about the rights of native American Indians to be left alone in their territory and to be unmolested?
If I were a modern-day so-called red Indian I would be full of hatred and I am sure very few of them would have been fans of the cowboy movies that all young boys in my time would have thrived on. It all smacks of the same hypocrisy that was apparent in John Mitchel, Derryman and advocate for repeal of the penal laws in Ireland, who sacrificed his three sons in the American Civil War in the cause of slavery.
BTW Why go all the way to Africa to find slaves when it would surely have made better sense to turn red Indians into slaves or to nip over the border and capture Mexicans as slaves? Which makes the modern day patrols on the Mexican border to keep people out all the weirder.
Don MacFarlane
November 30, 2012 at 9:43 am
Back to Business!
Names from the spreadsheet that are truly waxwings are:
Catherine Allison – Donegal (Leck)
Archibald (Archy) Ballantine (Balentine) – Tyrone (Bodoney)
William Barber**- Tyrone (Ardstraw), accompanied by younger brother (11). McElroy 1839
Andrew Deery (Deary) – Tyrone (Leckpatrick)
John Doak (Doack)* – Donegal (Taughboyne), accompanied by 19 year old sister. McElroy 1839
Alexander Elder – Donegal (Templemore)
Connell Harrold (Harrell) – Donegal (Donaghmore)
Samuel Hay – Tyrone (Urney)
Samuel Kyle – Donegal (Tully)
Hugh Livingstone (Levingston)*- Tyrone
John McAleer – Tyrone. McElroy 1839
Margaret McAnaney – Tyrone (Ardstraw), spinster on Stamp
Daniel McCahill**- Donegal (Donegal Town)
Eleanor McGettigan – Donegal (Clonleigh), spinster on Stamp
Francis McGlashan – Tyrone, unaccompanied ‘juvenile’, tho’ 17.
Patchills (Patchell)- Donegal (Conwal)
I will concentrate on these ones for the next while as they are clearer cases to look at. Unlike the Aikens, their county of origin is stated on the ship’s manifest; unlike various other names, these names are clearly decipherable; and also their names are most distinctive and peculiar to Ulster, so they would not have come from a further away location such as Leitrim or be more dispersed.
Those asterisked once were weavers on the Stamp; asterisked twice were labourers. As they were invariably on the Flaxgrowers Bounty List and not on the Landowners List, a reasonable assumption can be made that they were all scraping by and were not in a position to buy acres of land in the US. A secondary assumption is that they lived within striking distance of Philadelphia, or in it, rather than further afield unless they had earlier family connections in the US whom they could meet up with.
Just as a reminder, part of the point of searching for these names is to challenge the Watsons over the names they have decided to put up on the West Chester memorial. If we cannot consistently and with relative ease trace the waxwings we would be entitled to ask what magic formulae they were using in tracing the Duffys Cut deceased. As an extension of that agenda, we are checking if any of the Duffys Cut folk came off the other ships from Derry that Summer other than the John Stamp. Also, we are looking at whether there were any peculiar and particular forces at play that Summer to account for the exodus from Ireland in 1832. Finally, we are doing a service to all family researchers that are looking for isolated cases, whereas our bigger numbers can paint a bigger picture about impasses, pitfalls, stonewalls, wrong turnings etc. etc. that we unearth.
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 3:35 pm
The Chieftains did an album about England forcing the Irish into conscription and going to Mexico where they fought against the Mexicans for their territory. England in their battle to be an Imperial power wanted Mexico for themselves. The Irish and the Mexicans were Catholics so this didn’t sit well with them and many Irish refused to fight the Mexicans, much to the chagrin of the English. There is a memorial and museum dedicated to the Irish and Mexicans who came together. I met an American man who works in Mexico and he said there are a lot of expats living in Mexico.
Londonderry
November 29, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Sounds to me that my folks were smarter than I thought. I do wonder about the influence of the clergy on certain classes, especially in the Lowlands. It’s interesting in history how hardship has been the catalyst for great things in art, science, politics etc. I’m thinking Russian music, Isaac Newton, Andrew Carnegie, French political thinking, American frontier, etc. I believe the most vulnerable time in companies/organizations is when they are riding high and there is no need to find improvements. The most potentially beneficial times are when the companies have their backs to the wall and improvements are essential to survival. In many ways the Ulster-Scot migration was a good example of the “human bounce-back” from hardship.
maccarleo
November 29, 2012 at 9:55 pm
My computer has been having issues with WordPress all morning so I apologize if this has posted before.
All of the female passengers on the Ontario manifest are listed as spinster but Hannah is probably James’s wife.
I think what we are looking at in the summer of 1832 is the second phase of a recruiting effort in Ulster. The first phase was a lone male going to the States for work. After he is settled, the rest of the family joins him. If he is not in Philadelphia, they would travel out of Philadelphia to some unknown place. The family may have had to save for the trip or waited for money to be sent before they could leave. This may explain why the travels seem so haphazard to our eye. The third phase may be word of mouth that caused others to emigrate. We may also have to consider that the recruiting effort spread a wider net than we originally thought.
BTW. About aeroplanes?! Were the Wright brothers of Scottish descent? No offense, but neither Don nor Vic look like rough footballers! Okay, maybe in your younger days 🙂
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 12:47 am
Vic, I could use help with Ohio and the Civil War. Is it the cae that Ohio did not go into the Civil War until 1863? A lot of records show enlistment starting 1 July 1863. Also, from the map is Preble, Ohio any way near Rush Creek, Logan, Ohio? I found Civil war records for four of Jane Aiken and Robert Brown’s children in Union, Ohio and I found records in Preble but I think they are on opposite ends of the state?
Hannah Forsythe and Robert Aiken’s daughter, Jane Aiken, married Robert Brown. They had six children, five boys and one girl. Robert Brown was a farmer in 1850 and they lived in Rush Creek, Logan Ohio. The value of the property was $1500.00. Thirteen years passed between the firs child and the last. In 1880 Jane Aikin Brown and her husband Robert lived in Bellfontaine, Logan, Ohio. with their youngest son, John, who was listed as a comonal Traveler? There is a photo on line of the Brown family tombstone, and two smaller ones for Jane and Robert. The Brown tombstone is large.
Robert is listed by the family as coming from Belfast,Ireland. The family listed Ballymena, County Antrim as the birthplace for Jane but the ship manifest has Ballyhallan, Donegal. A family member has their marriage as being in 1834 in Philadelphia, PA but I can’t find it. There is a map of their land in Union Township, Ohio in 1875 in Logan County Ohio.
There was a woman, Mary Ann Brown, who had land near the family, perhaps she was related. James, David and William are listed as registering for the draft for the Civil War on the Union side on 1st July 1863 in Union, Logan, Ohio. I can’t find Robert H. their brother in the Union, Ohio draft. The name is popular and is listed in various places including Preble, Ohio and Pennsylvania. With the McQuillin family they signed up in their home state but they were in regiments in neighboring states so I’m not sure if this is the case with him. Probably all five sons were drafted on the same day and I’m still looking for draft records for the youngest son, John.
Robert H. Brown did well for himself in Ohio as a farmer. He married Jennie Miltenberger whose family was in insurance. In 1880 the Miltenberger family and Robert H. and his family lived in Bellfontaine, Logan, Ohio. The Miltenberger family’s estate was $5,000 and his estate was $1300. He became an Insurance A.F. and they had five children, of whom three may have have died at an early age. There are no first names for the first three (they are in the families profile page but I didn’t see them listed on any other census records. The other two are listed as Wallace and Mary J.
In 1900 Robert H. and his family, his mother-in-law (now widowed) and youngest brother, John Brown (widowed), and his children moved to Detroit, Michigan whete Robert H. became a cigar manufacturer. There were two servants with them in this census, a cook/housemaid and a coachman. His brother lived next door and his mother-in-law lived with them. In the next census they were back in Bellfontaine, Ohio.
Vic Barnett
November 30, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Eileen, I have done some research on your question of when was it that Ohio entered the war and I submit the following without proof. While it is easy to determine when Southern states entered the war, or seceded, like my state, Louisiana, in 1861, there is no such date for the states that never left the Union. Ohio was made a state in 1803 and they were always a part of the war.
There were very many famous generals and politicians from Ohio, e.g. Generals Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, Custer, Rosecrans, Buel and Crook; and politicians Stanton, Hayes (general and President) and Chase. My wife and I just saw the movie “Lincoln” which y’all must see, and I can hear Abe saying now , “that lineup of people is not too shabby.” The problem he had, and it gets to the heart of your question, was the organization. Lincoln controlled the regular army and navy; he did not control the county and city units that came under the control of the Governor. You’ll recall that at Gettysburg Lincoln had the problem of the Pa Governor calling home his Pa units to protect the state.
My wife’s ancestral town of Zanesville raised seven local units for the war. I picture the westward movement into Ohio and parts west as a continual push for land that was workable. BTW, I had a year at the Army War College in Carlisle Barracks PA and I travelled most of the state. If you consider PA as a rectangle sitting on its long side, the best land is in the Quaker Southeast, west of Philly to Harrisburg, not even a quarter of the state. Other than that very rich part, which was quickly taken in the pre-Rev War era, the rest of the state is rolling hills and mountains with only a valley here and there that is producible. The rest of the state is good for mining, oil, a pasture here and there, and timber. It’s no wonder that farmers landing in Philly or Delaware quickly flooded the Ohio valley when the Indians were pushed further west.
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 7:48 pm
I think the 1 July 1863 dates I saw were about the Enrolment Act Lincoln signed that forced Ohioans conscription. Ohioans from PA originally had Southern roots, Southern sympathies and relatives from the South were not too keen with them being forced to sign up for the Northern side. When the Kansas-Nebraska Act passed, frontier states had the right to choose whether they wanted slavery. Ohio, Nebraska and Kansas were divided on the issue. Many of them had Southern ties and being land owners they had an interest to see that slavery spread to the Frontier. The Presbyterians also were on both sides of the issue and soon the Frontier was involved in the Civil War.
Eileen Breen
November 30, 2012 at 7:59 pm
Vic, was right. Ohio was involved in the Civil War early on and over 260 regiments from Ohio were entrenched. 6,479 Ohioans paid a military fine to the federal government to escape military duty or they aid someone else to go to war for them which was legal but was not viewed in a positive light. 5,092 African American soldiers served in ‘colored troops’ for the Union side and enlisted from all Union states. 11,237 Ohioans died in battle and another 13,354 died from disease. 84 out ofevery thousand Ohio men died in the Civil war and 44 out of every 1000 Ohioans deserted. Ohio had the lowest desertion rate.
Don MacFarlane
November 29, 2012 at 7:32 am
And also quite a few groups of children with only one parent with them, though often there is what appears to be a maiden aunt. The Aikens are one example of this and Hannah 48, spinster, must have had her hands full, although six older nieces from 16 upwards probably played their part. It is mind-boggling why the patriarch of the family, John Senior (a widower at this point), would have upped sticks for the unknown at the age of 60 with such a large and very young family in tow, the youngest being six months old. Reckless or crazy?
There is no record of anyone by the name of Aiken owning land in Donegal around that period. Aitken,yes, but not Aiken
Click to access 223.pdf
Likewise, on the same ship there is a McQuigg who also claims to be a farmer from the mysterious Ballyhall but there is no record of a landowner (meaning anything above an acre) of that name either. As mentioned in an earlier post by Mary I think there is a Ballyhallan (Ballyhallion normally) in Donegal, just outside Clonmany, but it is entirely in the wrong peninsula in Donegal from where the Aikens and Forsythes were to be found.
It all begs the question then – how does a late middle-aged widower of modest means and a large young family go from being a sub-tenant of land (if that is what he was) to being owner of a large spread in Ohio. How does he hear about it, does he carry the means of purchase with him, who did the land belong to before and was it already a homestead? More questions than answers. It also raises the question of what was going on in the Summer of 1832 that drew these semi-literate Irish folk like a moth to a flame? Did any or few of them bother to stop off at Philly at all or was that just a portal of entry? As Vic says, they are cold cases and as such it is about means, motive and opportunity. I don’t feel we have much of a handle on any of that yet and therein lies the clues.
Afterthought.
Although Hanna is listed as a spinster on the manifest, could that be a mistake and was she actually the wife? If so, and if Hanna Forsyth(e)was from Donegal, that narrows it down considerably. Forsyths were only to be found in Raymoghy Parish; Forsythes were only in Taughboyne, Leck and Clondahorky. The odd one out amongst those is Clondahorky (modern-day Creeslough/Dunfanaghy area), the others are clustered together in a wedge at the start of Lough Swilly butting on to Letterkenny.
Aikens on the other hand were only to be found in Aughnish and Killygarvan. Either of those would fit as they are on the road out of Letterkenny, in a different direction it’s true – East, rather than North or South. So from all of that, it would appear that this Ballyhall(an) is in Laggan region of Donegal adjoining Letterkenny, not outside Buncrana which would otherwise be the case.
Mary Cornell
November 29, 2012 at 6:02 am
As to the idea of a PhD dissertation out of all of this, the first paragraph would say simply ‘here you go’, the last paragraph would say ‘there you go.’ And in between would be all of our posts over the past few months. The title would simply be “The Perils and Pitfalls of Genealogical Research.”
Okay, back to being serious. Vic, you are right on target as to what all of this entails, which is constant detective work. Too many researchers fall into the habit of disregarding information because it does not ‘fit’, rather than do the work to disprove what they think is incorrect. Those in your genealogy group who think that the history gets in the way of the work are missing so much of the picture. For my money, they are the ones who will come to all the wrong conclusions in the end.
I found the following article a while ago and kept meaning to post it, but had actually forgotten about it until now. I was not sure how to take it. The first half is the usual discussion of the Watsons’ work, but the latter half of the article is odd at best. What I take away from it is that whatever happened at Duffy’s Cut was brought on by the men themselves. “Rough behavior provokes rough behavior.” I found it odd because it was written by an MD, George R. Fisher. It comes off sounding ignorant and prejudicial toward the immigrants. He echoes the British mindset. Your takes, please.
http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/blog/2352.htm
Don MacFarlane
November 29, 2012 at 7:02 am
Curious. Dr Fisher is described as a Philadelphia physician who served his community for sixty years, which makes him almost ninety when he was writing this stuff. I suppose at that age one will rant on a bit. Stop me if I go that way!
The homepage is
http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/
The essay, if it can be called that, makes a reference to Prof Watson feeling that there was a modern-day conspiracy to shut him up. BTW I was amused at the description of the Scots-Irish being known for bagpipe-playing, rough football, country music and flying aeroplanes. I didn’t know Vic played the bagpipes!
Londonderry
November 29, 2012 at 10:34 am
Well there is some truth to that I suppose. As to bagpipes…no. When I was researching on my family tree, I remember a quote from one of the books, maybe “Albion’s Seed” that ‘the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment never made it to Scotland’. Recall the Romans never invaded Scotland. The Lowlanders were heavily influenced by the Presbyterian clergy who basically said to their flocks, “if you need to know it, you’ll hear it from me”. I have always been bemused that the Scots while wild and wooly often were wildly successful with great determination and resilience. My reading doesn’t show them to be instigators of the Revolution, as I think Eileen implied a few days ago, but they were in the backwoods only wanting to be left alone. Only when their freedom was provoked were they players and players they were.
I am very fascinated by the double envelopment of Lt. Col. Bannister Carlton at Cowpens by Daniel Morgan, an Ulster Scot. This is still studied at West Point as the perfect example of soldiering in the war. Essentially Morgan used the militia, read Ulster Scots who were poor soldiers, to fire two shots then run to the rear (which they probably would have done anyway). This was viewed by the British as a retreat and they attacked only to be almost wiped out by the uniformed colonial soldiers.
I also believe that the early Ulster-Scots, say in the 1600s and 1700s, may have been a little different than the folks you are researching on Duffy’s Cut, albeit moulded by many of the same forces as their forefathers. I also find the Scotch Highlanders and Ltowlanders to be two different lots, maybe like the North and the South in every country and state usually are different.
Don MacFarlane
November 29, 2012 at 2:22 pm
The only quibble I would have with what you have said here is that the ‘Scottish Enlightenment’ was held up as a beacon of political philosophy by much of Europe, notably by Voltaire and through him by Catherine the Great of Russia. Not that it did her much good as she turned out to become a despot and she and Voltaire parted ways.
Francis Hutcheson was the Father of the Scottish Enlightenment but he was Ulster-Scots from Saintfield in County Down. How his movement came to be known as Scottish was because he was Professor of Theology and Philosophy at Glasgow University. He was much admired by Adam Smith, David Hume and other famous Scottish philosophers of the day. Hutcheson’s name is little known today but he was a bigger figure than Smith during his lifetime.
His best known edict is ‘that action is best which procures the greatest happiness for the greatest number’ and that became the cornerstone of the Utilitarianism Movement espoused by Jeremy Bentham and others. Hutcheson is thought to have had great influence in the drafting of the American Declaration of Independence and his other edict was ‘wisdom is pursuing the best ends by the best means’ which became the basis of Management Science and Decision Theory.
Eileen Breen
November 29, 2012 at 1:53 am
From the Ontario, James Rowland Aikin was a farmer from Ballyhallan, Donegal, Ireland. Together with his wife Hannah Forsythe and their children they lived in Philadelphia for a year then moved to Beaver County, PA. They were a Presbyterian family and they bought an eighty acre farm in McArthur township, OH. His son James, who supported his parents until their death, married twice and he had a total of eight children. James Junior’s second wife Catherine McKinley was also from Donegal and her parents together with eleven children had come from Donegal to Philadelphia a few years after the Akin family immigration. Her father owned an eighty acre farm in Ohio.
The five children of James Jr. and Catherine all graduated from Geneva College and a daughter Maria “Mary” Akin married a Dr Kennedy and they lived in NYC. From James Jr’s first marriage to Maria Irwin there were three children. His wife died in her early 50’s and a daughter died at seven years of age. He married his second wife Catherine McKinley in the same year. The families’ biographies are chronicled in the ‘Families of McArthur Township, Ohio’.
Eileen Breen
November 29, 2012 at 8:32 pm
Maybe Ballyhallan is Ballyhallion as you said? This was from Ancestry- Families Of McArthur Township, Ohio. If you look at the profile for Catherine McKinley or her husband James Aikin Jr (see story). I can email the story to you all. Under Catherine McKinley’s father the story talked about that he and his sons cleared the wilderness to farm in Ohio. This is another story to disprove the Watson’s theory all the Irish were poor. I bet they sold the farm in Donegal to buy the farm in Ohio. They bought it after only living in US for 4 years. His eldest son was still a teenager so all the funding must have been on James Aikin Sr.
Eileen Breen
November 26, 2012 at 1:29 am
Points To Ponder:
I just received a note from John Gillen from New York (Johgil on Ancestry). He wrote to us about James McClay and Rebecca Stewart in his family tree.
“I noticed that the James McClay and Rebecca Stewart on the passenger list are both identified as being from Letterkenny. There were two clusters of McClays in County Donegal. One large one in Southern Donegal centered around Laghy and a smaller one in N. Donegal around letterkenny. So I am wondering if the James and Rebecca are the ones who married in Laghy the following year. On the other hand, multiple Atlantic crossings were less frequent in the family than one might expect from people of limited financial resources.”
“My own grandmother made a crossing multiple times when she was working as a servant during the first two decades of the twentieth th century before she married in Boston. Her brother’s wife, Maggie June McClay, lived in Massachusetts for six years. She took her three children and returned to Ireland while her husband remained in Massachusetts and worked as a chauffeur. In 1914 when they returned WWI broke out. Several of the McClay and R. Stewart children travelled back and forth between Donegal and the US. Good luck with your research.”
I put up some of his tree on ancestry but there are more records that I saw for Massachusetts that I wasn’t sure about until I saw his letter. I’m not sure if this is our man so what do you think? Perhaps the marriage record might not belong to this family but his tree might, especially if they are from Letterkenny. The name Rebecca Stewart was very popular when I tried to search for her. Also McClay is also a popular name. I also think that travelling back and forth was not for most people but if you were a servant you would travel with the family at their expense.
John’s grandmother may have traveled as a servant when she was single. Even if this is not our family it could be an interesting story about working as a servant. There was a good article on line about servants in early Philadelphia from the late 1700s to the late 1820s. It sort of reminds me of Downton Abbey which is all the rage here in US!
Don MacFarlane
November 26, 2012 at 9:25 am
Clan McClay
There appears to be a DNA project on the McClays but it would be of perhaps little interest to your Mr Gillen as these types of project only follow the paternal line. It does list quite nicely however the whereabouts of the McClays in Donegal which was much as he says.
http://www.clanlivingstone.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1252
You can send Mr. Gillen the earlier link and he shoud be able to find in there his ancestor and a whole heap of relatives, both in Ireland and the US:
Click to access 095_Decendants%20of%20John%20McClay.pdf
There was something that niggled me about McClay/Stewart. The supposition was that they must not have been as poor if they were able to return to Ireland after a year. Three things:
There has always been the idea about that emigrants sent a portion of what they earned back to help less their more hard-pressed and less well-off relatives back in Ireland. But why? Square that up against the favour the emigrant has done by agreeing simply to be part of the ‘safety-valve’ of emigration, taking pressure off the family of one less mouth to feed. Why then the extra obligation of financial relief for those left behind when the younger ones can take the same emigration route as well? If that obligation was there, it seems enormously selfish of the stay-behinds who sit tight and wait for the hand-outs to keep them above the subsistence line.
Which brings me to the second point. What was the income-differential between the US and Ireland at that time. It might perhaps take a year’s savings to travel to the US but much less than that to travel back again? Or it might not take anything like that long. The average wage for a handloom weaver in England was five-to-seven shillings a week and you can be sure someone Irish was at the bottom end of that scale or worse. The weekly wage in 1830 for a millworker in the US was €5 and that was equivalent then to £1
http://www.measuringworth.com/calculators/exchange/result_exchange.php
Therefore a weaver could expect from that to earn about three times as much by emigrating to the US. Likewise a non-farm labourer could expect to earn twice as much as a farm labourer if prepared to rough it and have poor rations. Hence the attraction of the railroad.
The cost of a Transatlantic passage had dropped the year before (1831) to a quarter of what it had been to one pound ten shillings, in other words six weeks’ wages if in Ireland, or two weeks’s wages if in the US. What then was to hinder any but the most poor to make the return passage? A different story of course for women who earned a third as much as men and needed board and lodgings as they could not be expected to live rough.
http://www.cottontimes.co.uk/workers1.htm
Click to access c2486.pdf
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/exhibitions_talks_and_events/19th_century_emigration_to_the_north_america_online/helping_hands/the_cost_of_passage.htm
The third point is that the McClays are not listed as having even an acre of land in Ireland, so in fact it looks like they were dirt-poor but they were able to make their way back.
BTW. I mean to post a nice map of the districts of Philadelphia as an aid to discover where were the poorer and more outlying parts that were still or soon to be part of the city – the equivalent of zipcodes today. That may help to refine any searches.
Don MacFarlane
November 26, 2012 at 2:58 pm
Snippets from Stanley Lebergott 1960
‘In 1833 fifty per cent of employees in cotton mills were children’
‘Women walked barefoot to the meeting house to save their shoes, putting them on only when entering’
‘Wages (in kind) for slaves were half that for free labor but on adding out-of-pocket expenses the difference later became six-fold’
‘Beginning with the panic of 1837, in New York alone twenty thousand workers had been discharged by their employers’.
Don MacFarlane
November 26, 2012 at 5:56 pm
Wards of Philadelphia 1839
Penn Township
Vine – Mulberry N&S, Arch, Market, Chestnut, Walnut, Spruce, Cedar, Locust
Northern Liberties
Street – Delaware (Upper and Lower), Pine, Mulberry, New Market, High, Sassafras
Passyunk
Spring Garden
Monyamensing*
Southwark*
Kensington*
* Irish Ghettos
Click to access thephiladelphiariotsof1844.pdf
Of course, with at least a good half of our waxwing emigrants being Scotch-Irish (Ulster-Scots) and not of ‘native Irish’ stock, would they have been well-advised to keep away from Irish ghettos or would they have had much choice? ‘Out of the frying pan into the fire’ springs to mind!
http://www.greencastlemuseum.org/Local_History/scotch-irish.htm
If going further inland, the main destinations for Uster-Scots in PA were Lancaster, Delaware and Susquehanna counties.
Eileen Breen
November 26, 2012 at 8:09 pm
The McQuillins settled in Kensington and there’s a photo from the family on Ancestry under one of the McQuillin sons of this neighborhood. In the article on servants in early Philadelphia it said the Irish lived in the lower Wards. Also in the articles on cholera it stated the poor were located in the lower Wards and did not have access to clean water like the wealthy in the upper Wards who got their water from a fresh water source.
If we decide to do a story about the McClays three things come to mind: Plantation of Ulster, being in service and making the crossing being not just for the rich.
FFT: Facts On The Plantation: Protestant English and Scots from the Church Of Ireland were invited by the English to live on three-quarters of the confiscated land in Ulster located in Northern Ireland. British landlords received the best interest rates and purchased 2,000, 1500 and 1000 acres. They were expected to build a castle and wall off their land. The walls were to be built by those who had the smallest parcels of land. The Scottish and English were to settle on the cleared lands that were once owned by the Irish. During the fifteen years of the Plantation it had limited success.
The social and economic climate in England and Scotland caused the Protestants to move to Ulster. During the Plantation forty thousand Protestants were in Ulster; by the end of the seventeenth century a hundred thousand Scots and twenty thousand English were established in Ulster.
The Gaelic Chiefs saw a swift economic change in the way they earned their living – from a bartering system to a money-based economy. Landlords in the new money-based system learned that food given to a landlord in lieu of rent could be exported, thus a profit could be made. Landlords soon realized they could make more profits by not just renting their homes on the land but renting to large-scale sheep farms.
Rack-renting tenants became profitable and clans that once enjoyed long term thirty year leases that were handed down from father to son saw rents sky rocket. At the end of the thirty year term, families could no longer afford to stay on the land were evicted and cleared off the land they had been on for centuries. Lament for their lost way of life has been emotionally documented in Irish literature and music for six centuries. Most notably the song “Danny Boy” which depicts the last King of Ireland of the O’Cahan Clan being removed from his land and who was killed in Dublin Castle.
Duing the last decade of the 17th century into the 18th century, Ulster Scots who were descendents of the Scottish Presbyterians and who had left Lowland Scotland to settle in Northern Ireland in Ulster intermarried with English and Plantar families. Any attempt at the English who tried to isolate, harass and persecute the Presbyterians was made more difficult by the intermarriages. In 1684 the Presbyterian churches were forcibly closed. In America the first Presbyterian church was established in Pennsylvania.
Ulster-Scots also started the first newspapers in America and were noted to be part of the Revolutionary war, if not responsible for starting the American Revolution. Ulster Scots were dominant in the creation and fighting for freedom in America. Seven Scottish men from ulster were signers of the Declaration Of Independence and multiple Presidents of the United states claim Ulster Scot ancestry.
Economically, Ulster-Scots saw drought and an economic depression caused by England as major factors causing them to emigrate to Pennsylvania. England imposed trade restrictions on Ireland’s wool industry which was her largest export. England stipulated that Ireland could only sell its product to England and Wales which caused a depression in the Ulster economy. The Irish depended on the wool industry and when that was no longer viable they decided to emigrate. 250,000 Protestant and their families left Ulster between 1717 and 1775 and immigrated to Pennsylvania. In Later years they migrated to the cheaper, fertile farmlands in the southern states.
Eileen Breen
November 26, 2012 at 8:14 pm
The McQuillin family has a photo of the 1844 sectarian riot and the family’s church, St Michael’s RC church, that was noted in your article was burned.
Don MacFarlane
November 27, 2012 at 7:46 pm
50 Miles Further Out
For when I have exhausted Philly as the place to locate our waxwings and I have to start looking further out with the use of a Distance Calculator.
Also, I have come across a Find-a-Grave website which may sometimes be of help.
Eileen Breen
November 27, 2012 at 11:24 pm
The Kensington neighborhood where the McQuillins lived seems to be right off the Delaware River where the Port Of Philadelphia was. It was probably easy to hop off the boat and find housing in this neighborhood. I have used Find a Grave before. A lot of people take photos of gravestones. I liked the idea of Rebecca and Seth saving the day! When spreading out I think we could look at larger concentrations of Presbyterian churches. From Philadelphia, Presbyterians went to S. Carolina, Ohio, Minnesota and Illinois.
Don MacFarlane
November 28, 2012 at 6:11 am
Sometimes, by retracing the footsteps of these emigrants, I can feel that we are making the same journey as them, only for us it is in our imaginations. Part of that is that the first flush of excitement has worn off.
For now and for easy reference, I have pasted the most useful sources at the bottom of each page of the spreadsheet and I will just plug away until the spreadsheet is complete. That is not visible yet as I will post no further versions of the spreadsheet till I am satisfied with it. There is only one way to do this and that is method and hard graft. I am getting on with completing the spreadsheet and there is a good way to go yet with the picture building up all the time.
I haven’t forgotten my business with the Watsons!
To relieve the tedium, feel free to use FTT for random thoughts and for flashes of inspiration.
Eileen Breen
November 28, 2012 at 12:55 pm
I’m ready to move on to the Prudence. I’m not finding anymore with the John Stamp except I’m skeptical about who the Watson’s identified. Many of them were not just lone laborers. They traveled with the family. So why no one put an ad in the paper to look for them unless they too are buried with them. Not all their companions were laborers. In the case of the Burns family-mother, father and the child were all at Duffy’s Cut. So maybe there were multiple tents for each family not just the one cabin that was found.
Don MacFarlane
November 28, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Yes, I smell a rat too. My gut tells me, and I may well be wrong, that there are connections between the different ships. It needs to be put to the test, otherwise it is just as much a speculation as that of the Watsons. The different composition of the ships – some had family groups, some didn’t, some had siblings on board, some didn’t, some waxwing names pop up in different ships etc.- makes me wonder did some of the families of labourers follow on behind. It is no more than a suspicion that eg. some advance recruiting went on and some parishes were targeted. Once I have finished the spreadsheet and perhaps done some basic statistics the picture may become clearer.
Don MacFarlane
November 29, 2012 at 7:42 am
Just so. John Long, presumably at the Cut according to the Watsons, travelled with two sisters – Jane and Sarah. William Mahon came as part of a family that included his parents, both about 60, and two teenage sisters. Patrick Fullerton travelled with three brothers. William Barber travelled with his eleven year old brother. William Diven travelled with his spinster sister aged 20 and a child aged one. Are they all in the Watsons’ roster and, if not, what does that do to their arithmetic? My thoughts are that Duffy snapped up the young fit men of whatever trade, labourer or not, including groups of brothers. Whether that makes up the numbers, I don’t know, I haven’t looked at that yet.
Don MacFarlane
November 28, 2012 at 5:14 pm
My thoughts exactly. In this case, we have the added advantage of it not just being one ‘cold case’ but many so it is more like hunting down a serial killer. According to the Watsons, that is exactly what we are dealing with.
BTW If your folks came from Scotland they would have come from the Lowlands, not from the Highlands. If memory serves, you thought the Barnetts were a branch of the Livingstones. If so, there were two tribes of Livingstone, one from around the Firth of Forth west of Edinburgh. The other tribe were an offshoot of that first one that ended up in Argyllshire and they had their ancestral home on the island of Lismore. Most of these later took the mongrelised or Gaelic form of the name, McClay or McClea.
Like the Beatons, to whom I am related, the McCleas became famous as hereditary physicians. Hence they were not expected to fight, just patch people up from the battlefield. There is a DNA project for all those of Clan MacLea aka Livingstone and they may welcome Barnetts also for all I know? Another account says that Barnetts were just a variation of Burnetts which were never a clan in their own right but who had an honourable pedigree, though Saxon or Norman, nonetheless. Yet others say Barnett was a sept of Clan MacAllister and in that case definitely of Highland origin. Take your pick?
Eileen Breen
November 26, 2012 at 2:26 pm
I forgot a sentence from the letter. John didn’t think the two McClay clans, one from Letterkenny and the one fron Laghy, spoke to each other. This is why he doubted if our Letterkenny McClays were his Laghy McClays.
Don MacFarlane
November 26, 2012 at 3:06 pm
Planters Unplanted
I would say they are the same McClays, even if not within a generation or two, as the name is so unusual, much like the Patchells and Snodgrasses – back to the waxwing theme again. The Snodgrasses for example we not Johnny-come-latelys, they were among the first Scottish planters in Donegal as they appeared in the 1630 Muster Rolls.
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~krummhorn/donegal.htm
Other waxwings from that Muster Rolls were: Lecky, Buchanan, Campbell, Gilillan, Cooke, McCauley, McKenny, McConnell, Cochrane, Aiken, Greer, Crawford, Leman, Noble, Woods, Ballantine (Archy actually!), Allison, Ewing, Barber, Johnston, Reid, Nelson, Ellis, Griffen, McClay, McAleer, Edgar, Davis, Henderson, Keys, McNutt, Leitch, Foster, Barr, Hunter, Griffith, Peoples, Russell, Stevenson, McIlwaine, Speer, McAdam, Caldwell, Creighton, Elliott, Magee, McIlwaine, Ritchie, Long, Sproule, Livingstone, Wylie, Nicholl and Hood.
In other words, at least half of our folks were Planters?
Eileen Breen
November 26, 2012 at 8:42 pm
There is a large family tree on the internet when I typed in Stewarts in Ulster. They were one of the first families involved in the Plantation in the 1600s. They were invited by the King of England to live in Ulster. One group from Sir William Stewart’s family settled on over three hundred acres in Donegal. There are pictures of the castle and his estate. Don’t know if our Rebecca Stewart is one of them. There is also a large group that went to Pennsylvania as they were Presbyterian. They also settled in Ohio in the 1700s
Don MacFarlane
November 26, 2012 at 9:57 pm
I think it unlikely these particular Stewarts were people of wealth or property. The name was very prevalent in Donegal but there were none down by Ballyshannon where the McClays came from. That is to say, if the McClays were from Ballyshannon but the family tree seems to very definitely place them in Laghy, despite the ship manifest recording McClay as being from Letterkenny. There were only two or three wealthy families by the name of Stewart, roughly a tenth of the total number of households of that name in Donegal at that time. Oddly, one of these Stewarts did indeed have a sizeable acreage of land just outside Letterkenny, or as Mary would say, ‘hmmm ….’.
I doubt whether they shared the same religion, judging by the names that these particular Stewarts favoured. Rebekkah and Seth were names taken from the Bible and they probably represent a particular world-view that the family had. I will leave you to figure out what I mean by that – that is your conundrum for today! In short, if there was a class as well as a religious barrier, that seems to be a little too much to cross. Meanwhile, here is an essay that may help with the conundrum that I have set following on from the naming of Rebekkah and Seth.
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/staffpages/uploads/soc197/Contesting%20Ulster.doc
Don MacFarlane
November 27, 2012 at 7:14 am
Donegal, a Latter Day Zimbabwe?
County Donegal Protestant Association 1925
‘The Protestants in Donegal are by race, religion and sentiment different to the remainder of the population. They own eight tenths of all the land and pay nine tenths of all the rates. They therefore should carry weight over and above their minority electorate base and should not be swamped by the votes of their labourers and hirelings’.
http://www.seupb.eu/Libraries/PEACE_Programme_Evaluations/cr_BordProtFinal2_190907.sflb.ashx
Don MacFarlane
November 27, 2012 at 10:45 am
I have since discovered some more about the Stewarts and a strong connection with Tullyaughnish in Ramelton in Donegal where Rebecca Stewart was listed. There are also a number of other waxwing names from that same parish so I will have to backtrack and check some more.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/tullyaughnishGY.htm
An earlier Seth Stewart was listed for Bouchen in Raphoe which is on the opposite shore of Lough Swilly, with Letterkenny being at the top end of that lough. It is conceivable there was a younger Seth and with it being such an unusual name he may have been cousin to Rebecca. That would also fit with both declaring themselves to be from Letterkenny, not quite right but near enough.
In sum, we may have had the wrong McClay/Stewart connection all along (perhaps not) and the ship’s manifest might be close enough when locating the couple in Letterkenny. A bit more spadework is necessary.
http://www.thestewartsinireland.com/valuations.html#Donegal
Don MacFarlane
November 27, 2012 at 2:35 pm
I suppose it all boils down to whether there are one, or two, or more McClay/Stewart marriages in Donegal from that time period, with the added coincidence of a couple of that name having emigrated to the US on the ship Ontario. From that, the additional queries are to do with what was their purpose in emigrating, did they return after a year and if so, why? Here is a picture I can conjure up in my mind which may be, more likely is, completely fanciful.
James and Rebecca, whether from outside Ballyshannon or Letterkenny, belonged to the same or a compatible Protestant church. In other words they were of a closed (eg Brethren or Quaker) or evangelical (eg Presbyterian) Protestant sect, a bit like Mormons today. Evangelical Protestants were known to have settled in PA from Ulster since about the mid 1700s and these two were fed up being surrounded by Catholics.
Why do I say evangelical? Because of their biblical first names which signify the beliefs of their extended family that they were of a ‘chosen people’. Seth was the younger brother of Cain and Abel who saved the human race from iniquity. Rebecca, wife of Isaac, did likewise by advancing her righteous but younger son, Jacob, ahead of the wicked brother, Esau, as patriarch of the House of Israel. In other words the original Rebekkah and Seth both saved the world from eternal damnation, or so the Bible says!
Having arrived in Philly, this latter-day Rebecca and Seth found the place to be in their eyes a hotbed of iniquity, full of native Irish gangs and bootleggers and the likes. Before too long they decided they had had enough – ‘better the Devil you know etc’ – and they returned home, with James in tow who may not have had much of a say in it.
Mary Cornell
November 28, 2012 at 6:55 am
Probably not the last word on McClay/Stewart– I have been patiently sitting back waiting for one of you to discount the the one piece of information that ties this couple together as one and the same, but being that has not happened and until it does happen, I maintain that James and Rebecca from the Ontario and James and Rebecca married in Donegal are one and the same. There is an exact age match for BOTH. Had it been just one, the odds were even as to whether we were right or wrong about the connection, but having both match, exponentially raises the odds, coupled with the find of a large landholding Stewart family near Letterkenney. I do have to agree with the theory expressed earlier about ‘the devil you know.’ as to why they would return to Donegal. And further evidence of some amount of wealth is the survival of the entire family during the Famine.
On the other side of the Atlantic – Philadelphia – the only strange thing that I have found is that Alex Barber appears regularly in McElroy, but I cannot seem to find him anywhere else including the census.
I did not find findagrave to be particularly useful. I ran 100% of the names through and if there is a match, there usually isn’t any more information than the name and the cemetery where they were buried. I was particularly disappointed that the women were not able to be found even with the option of using their maiden name in the search.
Eileen Breen
November 28, 2012 at 9:40 pm
There were several Rebecca Stewarts who came after this Rebecca Stewart. We should probably rule out her being the one in Philadelphia and who she belongs to as I’m still not convinced that James McClay and Rebecca Stewart are a couple. I still feel that James moved into the frontier and married in another state rather than move back home. Not that it’s not possible and twenty per cent of the people did move back home but to me it seems like a slim possibility. I think we should move on to other ships and come back to this later. There is a Livingstone on another ship, maybe we’ll find a connection to James and Rebecca.
Eileen Breen
November 26, 2012 at 12:21 am
FFT: Families from the John Stamp:
Burns: Both Catherine and John both are on the memorial.
Diven: Elizabeth, John and William are all on the memorial.
Doherty: Samuel and Michael travelled together but only Samuel is on the memorial. McIllheaney: Bernard and Biddy travelled together but only Bernard is on the memorial.
Don MacFarlane
November 25, 2012 at 8:11 am
I think I’m starting to get the hang of Ancestry now!
Example:
James Barr from the ship Prudence.
There is one of that name, a tobacconist, in the McElroy Directory in 96 W High. He is also in the 1840 Federal Census but the demographics of the household don’t fit. There is only one adult male living with a woman perhaps ten years younger and there are no children. Therefore, unless our Thomas has upped sticks, abandoned his wife and family, and taken up with a new woman, this is not our Thomas.
From this example, it is possible to pin down exactly from a combination of McElroy and the 1840 Federal Census which of our emigrants are alive and well in Philadelphia in 1840. I will get on with completing this sheet of the spreadsheet, enter the findings in the Comments column and move on from there.
Of course there are the usual frustrations with Ancestry that if one wishes to broaden the search beyond Philly, Ancestry doesn’t do what it purports to do. Even if you refine the search by entering additional filters such as child called Jane and of Irish nationality it doesn’t make a button of a difference. In other words, Ancestry is a donkey, it leaves most of the work to you!
Don MacFarlane
November 25, 2012 at 9:36 am
Chain Migration
Taking another name at random as a tester, I come across the Snodgrass family. Ancestry throws up the following:
Asia (1828) from Derry – Samuel (26), William (25), Mary (20) and William (1)
Asia (1830) from Derry – Peggy (20)
Robert Ker (1836) from Derry – Eliza (20), James (20)
Carouge (1837) from Derry – John (22), Joseph (20) and Mary (18)
Solon (1844) from Derry – Margaret (46), Elias (18)
Warren Hastings (1844) from Derry – Eliza and Thomas (ages not recorded)
Delta (1849) from Derry – Catherine (17)
Creole (1849) from Derry – Martha (18)
Provincialist (1851) – Jane (21)
Superior (1853) from Derry – Robert (20) and Mary Anne (18)
Superior (1856) from Derry – Rebecca (20)
Zered (1858) from Derry – John (22)
That makes a total of 21 Snodgrasses emigrated from Derry to PA over a thirty year period, most of them in their late teens or early 20s. There is a story there to be told.Ŷ
Eileen Breen
November 25, 2012 at 3:03 pm
The mystery of the Earl of Leitrim had a lot of twists and turns! Someone should make it into a movie again.
For UTUBE video I just typed in UTUBE then Duffy’s Cut then Then look down: 2nd video: Duffy’s Cut: Reburial Of Irish Rail Road Workers of 1832. At the end you can pause on the sign they made for the the memorial.
On Ancestry you can have to look at the records to see what it contains or putting all the flters in won’t make any difference. My irritation is ancestry doesn’t remember the filters so you have to put them in over and over again. I tried to look up the Mahon’s yesterday but I didn’t see anything.
Eileen Breen
November 24, 2012 at 12:18 pm
At Lazaretta Quarantine Station the ship’s captain would ring a bell if people aboard the ship were suspected to be ill. The doctor would row out on the Delaware river and inspect the people. If they were sick a flag with the letter Q would mark the ship as being in quarantine. They tried not to bring people ashore unless it was medically necessary. People were often treated on the ships on the river. If someone was sick they might be taken to the quarantine station or the hospital. Doctors and nurses stayed near the hospital. There are no records from the hospital or quarantine station. There is not a separate database for Lazaretto, just the ship manifests.
Eileen Breen
November 24, 2012 at 6:33 pm
From your link about Lazaretta there is a book written by a ships doctor from 1890’s who would go out to the ships. It’s title Under The Yellow Flag. It’s on line (first 33 pages). It doesn’t mention our 4 ships but it might be interesting to you. The doctor would put up a yellow flag with a black letter Q for Quarantine. The book said all the ships were not inspected Probably only 1 doctor to inspect many ships. Maybe that’s how Cholera or other diseases like Yellow Fever got through.
FFT: I strted w/ the John Stamp and put a number by the last name to indicate a possible family grouping. The one’s w/ numbers are the one’s i looked at. The 1st 17 last names up to letter J. I’m finding many choices. Also not able to find the family listed together except (see below):. I looked at census records, city directories and family trees. I think Philadelphia being a large city our names are very popular. Even when looking up men’s names in the civil war I’m coming up w/ a lot of choices.
Names we found: Family #1: Catharine Allison married to John Doak in New Brunswick, Canada. Family tree has them in it.(Not sure if it’s them). Family #8: Mary Campbell Shaw, Samuel Shaw and son James A. Shaw: see family tree we have their family history in a biography of Cass Cty, Ill and a tree on ancestry. Family#11: Adam (John) Diamond and sister Roseanna Diamond McQuillin Civil war story, lg family tree on ancestry.
Mary Cornell
November 24, 2012 at 7:36 am
McElroy 1837
John Stamp
William Devine weaver
Robert Skelton labourer
*James Devamy weaver
Waxwings
Thomas Skelton weaver
Miss Eliza Magee
Robert Ewing (2) dry goods, merchant
Johnson Stevenson weaver
James Snodgrass labourer
John Culbertson labourer
Alexander Barber cordwainer
John Doak cab mr
*John Doke car mr
Peter Campbell weaver
*different spelling than manifest
Don MacFarlane
November 24, 2012 at 9:18 am
So far, I have about fifty possibles from McElroy that match for name and possible occupation, listed on the spreadsheet. I had spotted Eliza Magee (McGhee) but I hadn’t put her in yet as I was doubtful about her. I like that the first name fits but I thought that if she was so fussy to have an h put into her name on the manifest, would she have tolerated such a complete mispelling in McElroy? Also, I had noticed that McElroy seem to go for uniformity of spelling, almost as if they had a protocol that they kept to. Rarely, you would find a name that was the same as a whole host of others but was spelt differently. Is it likely that Eliza would insist on McGhee in Derry but Magee in Philadelphia? Likewise, I didn’t have Peter Campbell as a waxwing as the name is quite commonplace. I will put them both into the spreadsheet anyway.
Eileen’s suggestion that we widen the search reminds me of what my PhD supervisor, Dorota Iwaniec from Krakow in Poland, used to reiterate. It was with her almost a mantra, but she was preaching to the converted. ‘Follow the data’. I am a believer in that approach. Any other approach is counter-scientific, will not bring new knowledge, and is just rehashing what is already known. Of course such a searchlight approach has to be grounded in existing knowledge or it has no established basis or credibility. The two approaches have to meet in the middle.
Of course, in our case the data is mostly corrupted as it is badly recorded through sloppy and bad transcription. The errors perpetuate in subsequent records such as Ancestry and this is where our project can be of value for unwary family researchers who have to find these things out the hard way. I thought the Irish scenario was bad with all the BDM and census records being lost in the 1922 fire. This is worse. At least with the Irish situation you know where you stand.
I have some ideas already on the back of the data so far but I will leave those for a later post. This is where an intuitive approach to data would come in, although my radar is malfunctioning at the moment, and Mary calls these ‘aha moments’. If germs of ideas can consolidate and hang together to form a bigger idea which can be tested in a formal way, better still. Statistics might be useful, perhaps not, and that is one of the reasons for a spreadsheet to see if any patterns will emerge.
I think the next stage would be to take those fifty names from the two McElroy directories (1837/43) and see if they come up on the Federal Census for 1841. I can’t think of any earthly reason why they wouldn’t. Plus, out of those, focus on waxwings that appear on the Duffy headstone – James Devaney, William Devine, George Doherty (Dougherty), Robert Skilton – and challenge the Watsons over why they think they were murdered.
Mary Cornell
November 24, 2012 at 7:12 pm
In this earlier time period, spelling was not of major importance. Names were often spelled differently as to the whim of the moment or the education level of the writer. It did not seem to bother or matter until later on when consistent spelling of a name became important for civil and government interaction. This is where intuition on the part of the researcher comes in, with apologies to your PhD supervisor. The list I posted was not to be intended to be definitive. It is simply an exercise in finding the names on the John Stamp and if, with further research, they are the right people, so much the better.
Now for the intuition part – I included Miss Eliza Magee solely on intuition. It is the presence of the word ‘Miss’. It reflects back to the feeling you had for her about the spelling of her name. As for Peter Campbell – after looking for the labourers, I decided to go through the entire list of names on the JS and see what could be found. Weavers seemed to be turning up fairly regularly. The reason for the inclusion of Peter is his first name. Peter, along with Michael, is one of the more uncommon names of the era. And his occupation being the same as the listed occupation on the manifest, makes his probability high on the list. Alexander Barber was placed as a find because he seems to be William Barber’s brother.
I did find it strange that the name Doherty did not appear. It will make it very difficult to find these men if the name changed to Dougherty.
Following the data only works when you have the data and in so much of this, there isn’t any data. Our intuitions seem to serving us well, though.
Don MacFarlane
November 24, 2012 at 8:24 pm
I mean to try to get a better handle on how literate or otherwise that ordinary folk were in that era in Ireland. All of these folks were of similar background, from similar locations and mostly of one religion. Yet some are able to ensure their names are spelt correctly, others not. None of them were from purely or mostly Gaelic-speaking areas so they should have been familiar with the English versions of their names.
I can’t quite get my head round Eliza, if it was her, switching or allowing the different spellings of her name. She may or may not have known that three different spellings refer to three separate tribes of a similar name – McGee from Donegal, Magee from East Ulster and McGhee from a a specific small part of Donegal. The names were not interchangeable. However, she may have got tired correcting spellings and have let it go, just as I rarely collect the usual mis-spellings of my name as McFarland rather than MacFarlane.
As regards Doherty or Dougherty, the former is the Catholic spelling, the second is Protestant. It is not likely a Protestant would let that mis-spelling go uncorrected.
Eileen Breen
November 24, 2012 at 3:28 am
FFT: I quickly looked at all our hints from our trees. So far, nothing is jumping out at me except Aikens, Shaw families and the McClay family. What if we expanded our stories to other ships that passed through Philadelphia’s Lazaretta immigrant station? So far we did a pairing of two family members. What if we could find a single person’s story, a whole family’s story or other pairing within a family. Or find a story that talks about immigration in 1860s, 1880s, 1900s and a present day story. Then we could talk about what was happening during these time periods in US and Ireland: economically, politically, socially, public perception of immigrants, reasons for immigration, types of occupations and the rise up the social ladder, importance of education, Irish roles in America? Maybe we could search family trees on Ancestry for an interesting story?
Don MacFarlane
November 24, 2012 at 8:14 am
I think we would be better drilling down with what we have instead of spreading the net. You have put a lot of work into the family trees and you have had a few bites, yes, but I am sure ‘making haste slowly’ will bring rewards. It had crossed my mind that the Lazaretto Station might keep records but strangely I don’t think they did. Philly decided against using it as a quarantine station for cholera but there would have been other killer epidemics at the time such as measles, influenza, typhus and smallpox. So why no records? BTW, did Duffy have to go to Lazaretto or did emigrants disembark at the port? Or did just the ships that were known to carry diseased passengers stop off there? In other words, was it just left to the initiative and judgment of the ships’ captains? Or did the ships all carry a surgeon? Seems unlikely but the Australian ships did all carry medical support. It seems to have been all very much more laid-back than at Grosse Isle.
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dbarnes/Photos.html
Eileen Breen
November 24, 2012 at 11:15 am
I looked at the Duffy’s Cut memorial at Laurel Hill, West Bala, PA. All of those listed were from the John Stamp. The name, as Mary said, Bernie McGarty or a variation of that name doesn’t exist on the original manifest (John Stamp or the other trees we have). The only other Bernie on the John Stamp is Bernard O’Neill who was aged 25, traveling with two other O’Neills. The two women, Elizabeth Devin and Catharine Burns, are also from the John Stamp. I can’t imagine why they would want to live in the woods with all these men in a shack. Elizabeth Devin had a son, John Devin, aged one who was also at Duffy’s cut and who was the only child on the memorial. I’m confused by Bernard O’Neill (25) as he is the only male non-laborer. Why not his brother Daniel who was 18. Both were listed as students. Age 18 and 25 seems a little old to be students for this time period. Perhaps they were more financially secure. Most poor men stopped their education at an early age to help support their families and did so by age 11. Also John Burns was 70. He seems to have been at the age of retirement and not a laborer.
They didn’t seem to be concerned with the laborers from the Prudence. The only thing I can think of is that they found John Ruddy (tooth anomaly) and decided he was from Donegal. All the other entries are from Donegal except McCahill, McAnany and Catherine Burns are from Tyrone. Perhaps the people were decided by how old they looked at the time of death. They were considered non-citizens, there were no death or naturalization records. there were multiple entries for each name in Philadelphia and surrounding communities and in city directories. The number 57 equals the number of laborers from The John Stamp and the Prudence. Phillip Duffy said the number was between 57-59. No other laborers were on the other two ships except one on the Ontario (I think).
I saw a video on UTUBE: Based on a research project: Madness, Migration And The Irish In Lancashire (Liverpool, England) 1852-1921. The conditions reminded me of the Irish in Philadelphia during the same period. The project researched mental health among Irish emigrants to Liverpool. It examined “disease, poverty, intemperance, stereotypes and social dislocation.” The study looked at how the Irish ended up in asylums. In Liverpool there was a large asylum system containing four asylums.
Conditions in Liverpool that may have predicated the Irish being subjected to being institutionalized included: overcrowding in Liverpool; the Irish were seen as responsible for the evils in the society; there was a rise in “pauperism, violence and crime; there were outbreaks of disease, decrease in wages, sectarian violence and political tensions which paralleled outbreaks of Typhus and Cholera; Asylums were overcrowded.”
The study examined the attitudes toward the Irish. The lay people, press and medical community used harsh terms to describe the Irish as “lunatics”. The Irish were seen as having high levels of “insanity”. They were viewed as being “susceptible to mental illness and as a result vulnerable to psychiatric intervention.” Alcoholism was identified as the major cause of insanity. In the press they portrayed the Irish as being a burden to the taxpayers. In society, the Irish were viewed as “ould Ireland’s demented children.”
Laymen further felt that the rising number of patients with mental illness was a gloomy prognosis for the Irish people as a whole. In 1847 there were hospitals that contained three hundred patients with mental health issues. By 1870, there was an increased level of anxiety concerning Irish emigrants’ state of health and overcrowding. In Liverpool, they had built an additional building to house over 1,000 patients. Some in the lay community saw the Irish as a burden and others saw them as experiencing stress from the emigration.
An Irish woman could be institutionalized for being single or widowed. Often they were domestic servants who lived in the home where they worked. Once they were seen as not being able to fulfill their duties they would be sent to work and live in a workhouse. If that didn’t pan out they would be sent to an asylum. Some patients were admitted for melancholia, malnourishment, delusional states and weakness. Some patients committed crimes and were convicted to seven years in the institution.
During the 19th to 20th centuries there was a higher rate of mental illness among ethnic groups. This may have been due to disease, poverty, substance abuse, crime, lack of a social network from family and friends. Stereotypes may have contributed towards the feelings of isolation and poor self-esteem.
Eileen Breen
November 24, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Two women, Elizabeth Diven and Catharine Burns are on the headstone. Elizabeth Diven aged twenty, John Diven her son aged one “son of the above” as marked on the manifest. and William Diven aged twenty one, a laborer, are all on the headstone. They are grouped together by a bracket. Catherine is listed with John Burns, aged seventy. I forgot her age but she is much younger and she is a widow. Either she is his daughter, niece, or a daughter-in-law. All the people on the memorial were from the John Stamp.
Don MacFarlane
November 24, 2012 at 9:44 pm
Could you forward me the URL for that as there are quite a few Youtubes for the Cut.
The one I looked at had Paddy Fitzgerald searching the passenger list for the John Stamp and I notice the Mahons were down as having come from Leitrim. I had spotted that before then forgotten about it, so clearly the emigrants came from further afield than Ulster – something we had expected of course. The Mahons appear to have come from the most southerly part of the county, bounded by the River Shannon to the West and Lough Allen to the North. The Third Earl of Leitrim was murdered while going about his business in Donegal
http://www.movilleinishowen.com/history/moville_heritage/land_lords/the_killing_of_leitrim.htm
The Second Earl had possession of the land when the Mahons left Leitrim and he seems not to have taken much heed of the increasingly dire condition of his tenants.
http://www.loughrynn.net/id29.htm
Mary Cornell
November 23, 2012 at 8:55 pm
Getting ready to delve into the McElroy directories, but I wanted to comment on one of your statements, Don. Eliminating names because the job level seems to be above the skill level they had when they arrived, bothered me. The statement strikes me as being a little ‘elitist.’ If we are talking about occupations of doctors, lawyers etc., I agree with their elimination. I would also agree if we are talking about opportunity and education that was not available to them in Ireland.
These men were labourers and farmers in Ireland out of necessity and lack of opportunity, not from lack of intelligence. Are you saying five years was not enough time to improve their station in life? Are you saying that in five years they could not have educated themselves or gained experience to improve their lives? I thought the main motive of immigrating to America was for the opportunities that were not available in Ireland. The ambitious ones would have been able to move up the economic ladder and some could have done it fairly quickly. If we use this criteria, Philip Duffy would have been eliminated because of his financial success.
Don MacFarlane
November 23, 2012 at 9:07 pm
In principle, I am with you on this one, the only issue is about time-trajectory for self-advancement. The criteria I was applying was along the lines of
http://celsius.lshtm.ac.uk/modules/socio/se040100.html
In the days of no higher education except for the wealthy, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps more than two levels in five years would be truly remarkable even in today’s terms?
Eileen Breen
November 24, 2012 at 12:01 am
What measures success? The mere fact that one could feed one’s family would deem a father successful in the nineteenth century America and Ireland. My G-G grandfather had 8 living children and a wife plus 3 nephews to support on a machinist’s salary. There was no extra money for a luxury like education. His sons all worked in the mills by 10 years of age or earlier. My Grandfather did slightly better by getting out of the mills and into a supervisor’s position but w/ a 6th grade education he wasn’t ascending to the fast track of success. By by mothers generation she did finish high school and a secretarial class.
It wasn’t until my generation that my brother and sisters had the opportunity to go to college. This would not have happened unless the other generations of my family paved the way. I think the ladder of opportunity is more insidious. We hear about people like Andrew Carnegie rising up the ladder quickly and becoming financially successful but in reality he and his family came from a lower class neighborhood Scotland. He and his family immigrated to Pennsylvania and lived in the tenements in Pennsylvania. He worked up the ranks in a rail road company and had a drive to be successful. Within his lifetime became one of the financially independent businessman in US. He also gave millions of dollars to many charities including starting the first free library in the US.
Factors such as Poverty, opportunities for education, raising the literacy rate and equal access to education and resources at the elementary and high school level so one can be at the appropriate grade level. Encouraging people to further their education at a college level or higher education. Further, childcare, support of family and the financial support of government loans to help pay for an education or to start a business allow one to support himself and his family. In turn, it places the family in a financially stable environment and builds one’s self esteem. These elements were not available in the 1800’s to early 1900’s in America. As costs for education keep rising, the opportunities for education and keeping people out of poverty will continue to be a challenge in the 21st century.
This past election season was seen as the most expensive senate and presidential race in US history. The Republicans and Democrats spent over 80 million to get one senator elected. If we could spend that on education for equal opportunities for education and low interest loans for students we could greatly increase the literacy rate and provide opportunities for commerce, jobs and future educational opportunities in US and worldwide.
Eileen Breen
November 24, 2012 at 11:51 am
He’s Skelton on the headstone. Skilton was in a family tree on ancestry. I don’t think we had any other successes with the name except for a few possibilities. You thought the name Skilton might not be a name found in Ireland? It’s interesting Mary found names in McElroy and the occupations were different. Would this rule them out or not? Also they could have changed careers depending on the availability of jobs. McElroy is later (1837/1843). If we found the city directory to match the name, new occupation or if we saw a change in occupation we might have something. A lot of times the father passed his occupation to his son. The son would work as an apprentice and you can see the job change in the son but usually in the same field of work.
Don MacFarlane
November 23, 2012 at 10:16 am
I have had a first look at the McElroy Directories and have entered data into the spreadsheet.
For 1837, I have left out any names that fitted but where occupations were at higher a level of skill than one would expect from young, newly arrived and unskilled emigrants from Ireland. For 1864, I have allowed a bit more license (but not much) to allow for emigrants who were well settled to have become better established and to have picked up a bunch of new skills, provided the economic shift was not a shift of more than two levels of economic status. I have not got round yet to the intervening years which could throw more light.
I’m sure even what is there already will be of some interest and will get my braincells working a bit better. BTW, two of the names on the headstone have cropped up in the Directory.
Mary Cornell
November 22, 2012 at 6:02 pm
To be honest, I began using Ancestry simply as a guide to find the names in other places. With the more common names, it refuses to use the filters I give it, so it spits out hundreds of names. On the other side of the spectrum, other names will only show one or two possibilities, none that matches the information I had input. The choices you have given happen to be the names that I have been unable to find any information on in Ancestry.
For census research, I prefer to use Heritage Quest. The only bad side is that the 1830, 1840 and 1850 Censuses are not indexed, but this is where I use Ancestry to give me specifics where to browse or if I can find a name in a later census, I can backtrack. The reason why I like Heritage Quest is that even though it is exact match only, you can search last name only, first name only or no name at all. The advanced search lets you narrow down the possibilities to a manageable amount. This is how I was able to find a few of the mis-indexed or misspelled names.
One caution with family trees. There are a few researchers who may not have been as thorough as they should have been in following their trees back or there are wrong assumptions made on their findings. I know from first-hand experience with my husband’s family tree that once one wrong connection is made, it is continued through the following branches. Because I knew the family connections, I was immediately aware of the mistakes that were made and why they were made, but what of those who are not aware of a family history. So, right now half of my husband’s family are on several trees where they have no relationship to anyone on the tree. Just cautioning that one wrong turn on a tree makes subsequent entries wrong.
I get the feeling there is a bit of subterfuge going on with the Watsons in the correspondence with you, Don. As for their research, any halfway-competent genealogist would have found the Bernard McGarrity mistake in the first go-round. Their ‘research’ seems to be superficial, at best. Harsh, I suppose, but I would expect better from academia. The men of the ‘Cut’ deserve better.
BTW You would not have done the same. Your integrity would not have allowed it.
Eileen Breen
November 21, 2012 at 2:42 am
FFT: For the Campbell / Shaw story:
I was thinking their story reminds me of a Robert Frost poem, ‘The Road Not Taken’.
From the last part of the poem:
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence;
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference
Perhaps the title of the article could be ‘The Road Not Taken’ or ‘The Road Less Traveled’. This family chose not to stay in Philadelphia but moved into the Frontier where there was little protection from the Government. Two months prior to their arrival there was the Black Hawk War when the Black Hawk Indians fought against settlers to reclaim their land. This must have been a difficult decision, first to leave Ireland, then to leave the comfort a city could provide and move into the wilderness where it was a hostile environment. Illinois was not so much an Irish settlement as a mixture of cultures, religions and occupations.
I’m not sure if the focus should be on the causes for immigration, choosing a new path, the Governments position on helping those of all income levels to own land. I’m not sure if we have enough for an article but f someone wants to write it they can. It could also be paired with the Rebecca Stewart/McClay story where they chose a different path: to return to Ireland.
Mary what would you like to write about? Do you want to do the next article and I’ll stay quiet!
Eileen Breen
November 20, 2012 at 10:40 pm
Charles McQuillin was Roseanna and thomas McQuillin’s third son. He was born in 1838 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and he had four brothers and a sister. At age eleven he and his brother Thomas aged five were sent to live with Archibald and Isabell Scott, who were relatives, because their parents died at an early age. His other siblings were also sent to live with relatives. He married his cousin Ellen Stinson and they had four children. He was a plaster by trade like his father and he enlisted in the Union Army on 1 Sept 1861. His regiment was the 1st Missouri, Company K, Light Artillery and he entered the service as a private. By war’s end he was elevated to the rank of corporal.
Missouri was a border state and it sent men to armies on both the Confederate and Union sides. Over 110,000 men were in the Union forces and there were 40,000 Confederate soldiers. As soldiers died, injured or were missing soldiers were combined with other militias. The 1st Missouri Light Artillery Battery served in regiments in Missouri and Alabama. In a Civil War Pension application that he filed he was declared as an invalid.
During the Civil War his regiment fought in many battles in Tennessee and Mississippi. The most noted was The Battle Of Shiloh in Tennessee on 4-7 April 1862. This was seen at one of the costliest battles of the American Civil War. Union forces declared 754 men were killed in action, 8,408 were wounded and 2,885 union soldiers were missing. The Confederate troops counted 1,728 men killed, 8012 soldiers were wounded and 959 men were missing or captured. Union General Grant was seen as unprepared for this battle and the Confederate forces took the Union troops by surprise. Union forces were bayoneted in their tents as they slept and Northern newspapers did not portray Grant in a positive light. Demands for his resignation flooded Lincoln’s White House but President Lincoln dismissed their pleas. Grant pulled off a victory the following day which redeemed him and by the summer of 1863 Union forces were in control of the Mississippi River, a vital waterway.
Charles McQuillin served two years and nine months in the 1st Missouri. He mustered out of service on 3 January 1864 and returned to his family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
londonderry
November 19, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Eileen, sorry for the delay…..I have been searching for my Baird book and I just found it today. The bottom line is that I cannot find David Baird per se but I believe that there is a high likelihood that he could be related to my Baird clan. Here is what I know. I have a James P. Baird born in 1749 in Derry County who emigrated in 1782 and died on April 18, 1829. He is buried in our Barnett family cemetery in Hartford, Ohio Cy, Kentucky.
Baird is a fairly common Ulster name, especially in Derry, and one closely associated with other names in our tree. My theory is that David Baird of Duffy Cut was in the second wave of emigrants from Ulster ports like Derry. The initial wave in the 1700s followed a general route of Derry, Dover, Pa, Va (down the Dunmore Rd —I81 or Shenandoah Valley), then on to Kentucky, getting land as a reward for serving in the Revolutionary War and Points West.
These were pretty nuclear families travelling together and following preachers like Reverend Craighead. Not wealthy but not poor either. To me it seems that later in the second wave those on the ships you all are working on opcame separately when they heard of opportunities available in America. Their route was from the eastern ports more directly west since the Indians were pushed back from the French-Indian Wars, then the Revolutionary War and land became available. These were often poorer people ready to trade their hard labor for getting out of Ulster conditions. In my mind the waves were not homogeneous. I am going to do some research on the Dover port which is just south of the Philadelphia port. Mary’s recent post on the quarantine station was intriguing and got me thinking.
I am having trouble opening the Ancestry trees you sent me last week. Any suggestions?
Eileen Breen
November 19, 2012 at 2:03 am
Thomas McQuillin from County Antrim, Ireland and Roseanne Diamond from County Derry, Ireland, married 29 November 1828 in St Patrick’s RC Church, Ballinderry Chapel in County Derry, Ireland. Thomas McQuillin a weaver, immigrated from Derry, Ireland in 1830 to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, leaving his wife and first born son, John. Their son was baptized in Aghalee, Antrim.
In April 1832, the family set sail on the barque John Stamp. The ship was a three-mast ship constructed before the age of steam and the journey across the Atlantic took two months. Roseanna Diamond McQuillin traveled with her two year old son John, and possibly a brother, Adam Diamond, were recorded on the ship manifest. He was a laborer. and the family of Roseanna Diamond McQuillin record his name as John Diamond. There are multiple records for this name but a personal story later on states his name is John.
The barque John Stamp arrived in Philadelphia on the 23Rrd of June 1832. Roseanna reunited with her husband in Philadelphia and they had four more children. They lived in the Kennsington Ward 3 neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and they practised their faith in St Michael’s RC Church. She was committed three times in the Blockly Almshouse for a period of three years due to a psychiatric illness. During the second commitment she eloped from the institution and her brother John put an ad in the local paper to try to locate his sister. Records don’t indicate how long she was missing but a third commitment was recorded after this event.
(I need to add more details to this section)
Eileen Breen
November 19, 2012 at 2:50 am
Ships coming into Philadelphia entered the Lazaretta Quarantine Station. The series of buildings and a cemetery were a century older than Ellis Island in NY and it lay on the banks of the Delaware River. It was a port of entry into the U.S. from 1643-1893. The original building erected in 1799 still remains on the property. These buildings stand as a reflection and monument to the millions of immigrants who passed through these doors. Those who were too ill to enter the U.S. remained in its hospital, were quarantined or died there. Those that were healthy were given a medical exam and were allowed to enter the United States. One out of three Americans came through this port.
Blockly Almshouse is where Roseanna Diamond McQuillin died in the “Insane Unit” on 16 July 1849 from Asiatic Cholera. This was during the third Cholera pandemic in Philadelphia in July 1849 and she was 48 years old. Located in West Philadelphia, this institution was a charity, poorhouse, orphanage and insane asylum. There is a memorial dedicated to those who died here which reads: “Here rest the remains of 437 persons removed from the former burial ground of the City Of Philadelphia’s Blockly Almshouse from 1835-1888. Discovered in 2001 during excavation for construction at S.E. corner of University Ave and Civic Center Boulevard”.
On an Ancestry site I found the family tree of Roseanna Diamond McQuillin which belongs to her great- granddaughter. She spoke of trying to locate any information about her great-great grandmother. There are no photographs of her but there are some of her children. There are a few census records and information that she located in the hospital records of the Blockly Almshouse. She does not know where she is buried but feels she may be located in the Blockly cemetery on the hospital property, now removed to a local cemetery in 2001.
She also had the article from Roseanne’s brother, John, who put an advertisement in a Philadelphia paper that described her as missing and what she was wearing. Also often noted in Blockly records if a woman was hospitalized with her children was whether there was no one to care for them. Roseanne’s husband died seven months prior to her death from dysentery and their children were divided among family members. In one census a son age eleven was listed as a farmer.
Don MacFarlane
November 19, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Duffy Template
I have rejigged the template so that it should jump out of the page what we know versus what we don’t yet know.
The first sheet has the Stamp passengers highlighted in yellow across the rows. If it is a male labourer the yellow line goes all the way across, male but not labourer goes two thirds across, non-male or juvenile goes one third across.
Duffys Cut workers on the headstone are highlighted in orange.
White spaces mean missing or dubious information.
I have next to nothing from Ancestry as I can make no headway with that. Eileen seems to be very skilled in Ancestry and any info given to me as a batch will be transferred onto the spreadsheet whenever received. I anticipate that the big blank spaces will have to be substantially filled, through dogged enquiry, triple checking and hunches before we make a breakthrough here.
Don MacFarlane
November 19, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Another one down, this time from the Asia:
http://www.pa-roots.com/armstrong/ffolder/wcook1.html
I’ll chase these ones down for more details.
Eileen Breen
November 19, 2012 at 2:14 pm
Philadelphia Public Ledger on 26 Oct 1846 Advertisement.
Placed by John Diamond, Roseanne Diamond McQuiilin’s brother.
‘Anyone giving information on Mrs. Roseanna McQuillin will confer a favor on her distressed brother, John Diamond. She left the Insane Hospital on the 9th inst., had on a leghorn bonnet, yellow ribbons, light shawl with dark borders, dark calico frock, check apron and a bundle in her hand. She is a large-sized woman, swarthy complexion, and her teeth set thin. Any person knowing anything of her will please address a few lines to her brother, John Diamond, corner of 2nd and Jefferson streets, Kensington. County papers would do an act of goodness by noticing this advertisement”.
Roseanne’s eldest son, John McQuillin was a mason and on 18 May 1861, he registered for the army in Pennsylvania. He mustered in 23 May 1861 as a Grade 1 Sergeant in 84th Infantry, although the name the troops preferred was the 14th Brooklyn. He deserted on 6th December 1862 but he returned to the regiment on 29 May 1863 under the President’s Proclamation as a private. He was recorded as present on the Muster Roll dated 3 June 1863 but on the following Muster Roll on 31 Aug 1863 he was noted to be absent. He was detached as a hospital nurse since 1 July 1863 at Gettysburg, Pennsylvania and on the next two Muster Rolls, dated 31 Oct 1863 and 31 Dec 1863, he was marked as absent. On Muster Rolls dated 29 Feb 1864 and 30 April 1864 he was recorded as present.
The 84th NY also known as the 14th Brooklyn was in the Battle of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania on 1-3 July 1863. From the monument plaque in Gettysburg PA, dedicated to the men of the 14th Brooklyn, it states: ‘Commanded at the Battle Of Gettysburg by Colonel Edward Fowler, 365 men went into battle’. “On this spot at 10:30AM July 1, 1863 this regiment participated in the repulse of Davis Mississippi Brigade and the capture of a large portion of that command took into the engagement 365 officers and men and by the War Department record lost during the three days 217”.
John McQuillin was in the Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse. It was a major battle of General U.S. Grant’s 1864 Overland Campaign of the American Civil War. There were over 32,000 total casualties. It was the most expensive battles of the Overland Campaign and in the top five battles of the Civil War. 18% of Union troops were killed, 23% of the confederate troops died. John received fatal wounds on Laurel Hill on 10 May 1864, aged 34 years of age, and he is buried in the Fredericksburg National Cemetery in Virginia.
Mary Cornell
November 19, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Hey, guys- I have been spending the last couple of days backtracking on all the information we have accumulated, using Don’s spreadsheet. Right now, the only thing I have noticed is that we did find William Patchell living in Chester County, (census). Did we discount this William Patchell? The age is only a year off. I also found an exact match for George Quigley in Pittsburgh. And if John Diamond is Adam Diamond then he is also off of the control list.
Your work on the spreadsheet is greatly appreciated. It makes everything so much easier.
Great work on the McQuillen family, Eileen; it would stand alone as a separate chapter. I have to wonder what was causing Roseanna’s distress that she was put in the asylum. Was she put away because she was simply a ‘free spirit?’ Or were there genuine mental issues that her family did not know how to deal with? I did find her son John McQ living with a younger brother.
Eileen Breen
November 20, 2012 at 12:57 am
On ancestry I found two notes from her GG-granddaughter who states she didn’t know what caused her illness. It looks like the family tried to take her home on at least three separate occassions but she was placed back in the “insane” unit. I think the harshness of the language used for people with mental illness reflects on the times. People may not have understood what these illnesses were or how to treat them. There is a site on line that talks about the harsh conditions at Blockly.
There is a photo of Blockly on Ancestry under Roseanna’s name. Also, a photo titled Blockly woman that Rose’s GG-granddaughter found that shows a woman outside. During the time that Rose died conditions were very harsh. Over twenty people died per day of cholera, dysentery and other diseases. Also the fact she eloped from the facility shows that perhaps people were not watched very well as they were probably tending to the sick and dying. Rose’s GG-granddaughter made a doll of what she may have looked like as there are no photos of her.
It’s a sad story for this family and I’m not sure their American dream was fulfilled. Both parents died at a young age, leaving their children from two years of age to eighteen years with relatives. Perhaps John who was eighteen took on the care of his brother. The next generations seemed to do better. The men all seemed to be enlisted in the Civil war, WWI and WWII. The woman’s roles still were in the home probably until recently. I think Rose’s GG-granddaughter may be a nurse as she wrote that the records she read from Blockly and the day book entries are similar ones she used. This struck a note with me. As a nurse I worked in nursing facilities where we also used daybooks to record the day’s activities on a unit until recently when the computer took over.
Mary Cornell
November 20, 2012 at 5:43 am
Aha moment–I found an actual verifiable mistake on the Watson’s Memorial List, thanks to your color-coded spread. Why didn’t we see this before?! Bernard McGarrity on the Watson list is Bernard McIlheaney. Bernard and sister (?) Biddy (Bridget) McIlheaney came on board the John Stamp together with a single sack between them.
Don MacFarlane
November 20, 2012 at 9:57 am
I agree that Biddy had a brother on board with her but I think he was the next name on the ship’s manifest, incorrectly recorded or transcribed as Raymond (not Ranund as written). While checking, I believe I have unearthed another waxwing from the John Stamp, Peggy McKendrick from Kilmacrennan in Donegall (wrongly recorded as McRondreck).
I hope the database is not too dazzly but I am partially colour-blind. Anything subtle would not suit my eyes as well. Once I have the first page finished, I am considering sending it to Frank Watson for his input and/or to draw him out (take your pick). I would also put pointed but polite queries to him which, if he has genuine insights to impart, could be quite labour-saving for us?
i think Eileen has a story for the chapter wrapped up, perhaps titled ‘On the Run’ as both Rosamund and her son could be described as such and both came to a sad end. I think there is another story to be written about ‘The Boys from Ballbofey’ as a squad of young men travelled together from there on the Ontario, perhaps they ended up in Duffy’s Cut?
Eileen Breen
November 20, 2012 at 3:02 pm
I found out more information on Roseanne’s sons. Four were in the Civil War but the eldest was the only one that died in battle. Do you only want to limit the story to Roseanne and her son?
Robert Joseph McQuillin, second son of Roseanne Diamond McQuillin and Thomas McQuillin, was born on 24th November 1834 in Philadelphia. He married Sarah Ann O’Neill in 1858 in St Matthew’s RC Church in Philadelphia. They had six children: Rose, Jennie, Mary, Eliza, Ally and Henry. They had fourteen grandchildren. He was a plasterer by trade and their home was on North Lawrence Street in the Kensington ward in Philadelphia.
The McQuillin sons found themselves deeply entrenched in the American Civil War from 1861-1865. The McQuillin brothers were on the Union side. President Abraham Lincoln in his Second Inaugural Address that was given within a few weeks of the South’s surrender in 1865 described how the Union and Confederate states became so divided. “…four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it…Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let a nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came”.
The Southern states interest was in the Slave Trade. The confederacy vowed to ‘strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest’ which up to then was located in the Southern States. The Government ‘claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it’. The Union forces were small, the confederate government was just beginning to be formed and President Lincoln was known for being a great stump speaker but with no political experience. His goal was for emancipation of the slaves. In President Lincoln’s passionate address to Union Soldiers on 17th March 1865 he conveyed his emotional plea to abolish slavery. “Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.”
Robert McQuillin enlisted in the Union Navy he and was a Navy Landsman on board the USS Itasca. It was one of ten gunboats, two warships and motor boats used in the Passing Of Fort Jackson and Fort St Philip and the subsequent Surrender of New Orleans. ‘Union Flag Officer David Farragut, ran his fleet past Forts Jackson and St. Philip on 24th April 1862 and captured New Orleans the following day’. The Union plan was to prevent the Confederacy from sending shipments east and west on the Mississippi River and capture New Orleans which was the Confederacy’s most vital port. The Confederate Forts Jackson and St Philip defended the city of New Orleans.
During the battle which endured for five days and nights the CSS Louisiana and CSS Manassas led the way. The USS Itasca and USS Pinola opened an area in the barricade to make a passage for the Union Navy to pass by Forts Jackson and St Philip. The forts were passed with minimal loss of life. Thirty seven Union troops were killed and 149 were wounded. Thirteen Union ships passed by the forts. Confederate troops had a higher casualty rate of 782 killed or wounded and 6,000 were captured. On May 1, 1862 Union troops took control of the city of New Orleans.
Robert McQuillin who started as a Landsman in the Union navy was promoted to rank of yeoman after the Capture Of New Orleans under the command of Admiral Farragut. He remained in the navy until 1865 when the Civil war came to a close on 3 April 1865 when the Confederate capital fell. On April 11, 1865 the Union victory was secured. President Abraham Lincoln believed in forgiveness and reconciliation. He gave a speech from the White House on April 11, 1865. ‘he urged his listeners to welcome the Southern states back into the fold without decisive argument over their behavior, indeed, without deciding, or even considering, whether these states have ever been out of the Union, than with it. Finding themselves safely at home, it would be utterly immaterial whether they had ever been abroad’.
John Wilkes Booth, a well known actor, was scheming and plotting in the crowd that night. Booth was a Southern sympathizer who planned to kill Vice President Andrew Johnson, Union General U.S. Grant and Secretary Of State William Seward. Booth shot President Lincoln at the Ford’s Theater on 14 April 1865 and the president died from his injuries the following morning. William Herndon summarized the sentiment of the time: “The exultation of victory over the final and successful triumph of Union arms was suddenly changed to the lamentations of grief…The public heart, filled with joy over the news from Appomattox, now sank low with a sacred terror as sad tidings from the capitol came in”.
Robert McQuillin returned to his wife and six children after the war and resumed his career as a plasterer. He had fourteen grandchildren and multiple great grandchildren. On the 24 April 1884 The Farragut Veteran Association of Philadelphia invited Robert McQuillin and fellow Union soldiers to a 22nd anniversary of the Passage Of Forts Jackson and St Philip. The invitation reads: “you are cordially invited to attend the Annual Reunion Banquet of the Farragut Veteran Association of the Port Of NY at the Stevens House, Number 27 Broadway on Thursday evening 24 April 1884.”
It’s been 157 years since emancipation of the slaves and the union of confederate and the Union states. President Lincoln’s dream of forgiveness and reconciliation resonates as a united America continues to come to terms with equality as stated in the Declaration Of Independence, ‘All Men Are Created Equal’.
Sources
Time Magazine: ‘Abraham Lincoln. an Illustrated history of his life and times’ and also a Wikipedia article on the Battle of New Orleans. Personal information on Robert McQuillin’s family is from his great grandchildren’s Ancestry profile page and some information from documents from archives found on Ancestry.com.
Mary Cornell
November 20, 2012 at 6:29 pm
One of the few times I can argue with you, Don. 🙂 Yes, Biddy McIlheaney’s brother is the next name on the list. His name is Bernard McIlheaney. I double checked with the original manifest. There is also not a Bernard McGarrity on the manifest. Double-checked that,also. The name that the Watsons have listed on the memorial is non-existant.
Mary Cornell
November 21, 2012 at 5:56 am
The McClanon or McClasson family are on the last page. I am still not sure as to the last name; it could also be McClarron. I noticed that the passenger list on the original manifest might show who was traveling together by combining what they had brought on board with them, far right. I have left out families as their connections are obvious, but some of the other combinations are not so obvious. All three Dohertys are combined together, even though George is from Donegal and the other two are from Derry but all three may be related. Here are the combinations I could ascertain:
Michael Doherty
William Doherty
George Doherty
Hugh Foster
Robert Livingston
John McAlean
Barney Rice
Robert Ewing
John Ewing
Robert Skilton
William McCormick
Richard Rane(?)
George Quigly
Michael Farran(?)
Don MacFarlane
November 21, 2012 at 8:30 am
I don’t think tne is such a name as McClasson and I would have settled for McClannon except that the only surnames from Derry with three syllables, starting with the string McCla* and nothing like an f or a y projecting below the line were:
McClammon from Faughanvale
McClarnon from Magherafelt
McClarnon from Ballynascreen
Ignoring the propensity for Ulster folk with a Mc name starting with L to convert it to Cl, that widens it up quite a bit so that then you get a swathe of
McLarnon from Artrea (Diamond country)and Desertmartin
McLarnen from Maghera
My money is on any one of these and they still do qualify as waxwings.
The only other comment is that Richard Rane, I believe, is Richard Kane.
Don MacFarlane
November 21, 2012 at 9:06 am
1846 Donegal Trade Directory
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/1846slater.htm
Some of our names appear on this:
Aiken from Lifford and Castlefinn
Barr from Buncrana
Barton from Pettigoe
Boal from Letterkenny
Brasland (Brisland) from Ballybofey
Brigham from Donegal Town
Carolan (Carlin) from Ballyshannon
Carlin from Moville
Cochrane from Ballybofey
Cook from Rathmelton
Edgar from Buncrana
Elliott from Letterkenny etc
Ewing from Donegal Town
Gibbons from Ballyshannon
Grier from Rathmelton
McBrearty from Killybegs
McDonagh from Ballyshannon
McElhiney from Raphoe and Letterkenny
McGettigan from Letterkenny
McHugh from Pettigoe
McIlwaine from Rathmelton
McMenamin from Ballyshannon
McQuade from Ballyshannon
Nelson from Castlefin and Lifford
Peoples from Letterkenny
Roddy (Ruddy) from Buncrana
Ryan from Pertigoe
Shiels from Rathmelton
Sproule from Ballybofey
What I take out of this list at a minimum is that at least a good half of the waxwing names from Donegal, even if not directly related, are shared with kinsmen who were active in commerce and who were not down at heel or desperate for work. Secondly, these names appear mostly to be from the more affluent places in Donegal (not surprising as businesses will gravitate to where the money is) and not greatly affected by the Famines later. These four main places were Letterkenny/Rathmelton, Lifford/Castlefin, Ballybofey, Ballyshannon. It all reminds me of Brian Friel’s poignant play and film ‘Dancing at Lughnasa’. Why did these boys not get off at Letterkenny and look for work instead of heading for the grass is greener and Derry Port?
Mary Cornell
November 22, 2012 at 7:29 am
Would McClennon be a possibility? Looking at the family, John and Jane are listed from Derry, but Madge and son Frank who are sandwiched between the other two are listed from Tyrone with the squiggly brackets showing all of their personal belongings together. Which would be the better choice for the family to have been from originally?
Lest you think I am slacking, I have been working on what could be called an ‘anchoring’ chapter to the Duffy’s Cut theme. That is to say, what led these forgotten and ‘lost to history’ Irish to American shores and was what they found better or worse than what they left behind? Has justice and truth been realized for these men? Or are they still just long ago forgotten names on a manifest? From this, all of the other side stories should fit nicely. So if you two could stop finding new information so that I am not constantly re-working the paragraphs, it would be greatly appreciated, said with tongue firmly planted in cheek! I particularly like the idea of the two mysteries. The one of Rosannah McQuillen and her son John in Philadelphia. The other of Rebecca Stewart and James McClay. What led to their return to Ireland? The two stories being representative of the two choices that these immigrants had once they arrived.
The reason why I asked if the specific ailment of Rosannah was known was that she lived in an age when any male relative could have her committed for any non-specific reason. Simply defying her husband would be reason enough. Or did she truly have an incapacitating mental disorder? Where was her husband during all of this? It seems her brother showed more concern for her welfare than her husband. It may have been a blessing that Rosannah did not live to see her son John killed in the war. I do not think that her fragile state could have taken it.
Eileen, please do not remain silent! Your intuitive nature helps me see hidden aspects in our searching. Don, your truly organized mind helps me put them in perspective. Vic, it helps to know there is an objective by-stander willing to jump in when we are floundering.
Don MacFarlane
November 22, 2012 at 8:31 am
The first page of the spreadsheet is complete and shows the gaps that need to be filled before we can make any real further headway. In reading the sheet, be aware that columns ‘Variability’ and ‘Barony’ should be read alongside each other. If the Variability Score is high viz. 3 or 4, the name of the Barony is only a guide and should not be relied upon. If the Variability Score is 1 or 2 and the County/Total ratio on Sheet Two is high (80% or more), the chances of the location being correct are extremely high.
The most disappointing thing is the inability, as far as I understand the case to be, of Ancestry.com to supply what should be relatively straightforward information – marital and parental status. Certainly, in Australia, that would be readily to hand and no more than an afternoon’s work to find out. If I could be sure we are not missing a trick, I would confront the Watsons again to check what magical methods they used to locate the men on the headstones. So far all I have got from them is hot air, vague warnings (Bill) and dissimulation (Frank). My suspicious mind tells me the brothers have got a lot of mileage out of this, with Bill being the driver, and Frank trailing on behind. There has been loads of publicity, a project to attract students to a small University, and not inconsiderable funding. Having said all of that, I don’t really blame them. It is all a worthy and honourable cause and I would probably do the same if I were put in that situation.
Before I go back to the Watsons, I need all three of you to take six names and in Ancestry.com see if anyone can arrive at something more sensible than I come up with. Let’s say – Archy (Archibald) Ballantine, Hamilton Hemphill, Timothy McBrearty, Arthur McQuade, James Snodgrass, William Stringer. Or you can, if you prefer, try your hand on the names on the headstone – a harder task, I suspect, as half of the names probably never existed, and the Watsons didn’t find them – James Devaney (or alternatives), Samuel Forbes, Daniel McCahill, John Ruddy, John McGlone, the Patchells (Putetill), George Quigley, Robert Skelton, William Devine, George Doherty, Bernard McGarrity, John McClanon, Patrick McAnamy. Or you can try your hand on six names from the John Stamp that did not appear on the headstone – William Diven, Patrick Fullerton, John Creighton, William Mahon, Brian McGourley (McGurley), William Barber (Barbour). Be aware that any errors in transcriptions that appear from the ships’ manifests have been carried over into Ancestry and that is a major flaw in their system.
I don’t quite understand why basic BMD info should be so unfathomable to find out in the US. Is it that there were only the three portals of entry to the US and if you did not get married before you left PA, you disappeared into thin air? As a tester, I put six rarer male names from the ship Asia into the Marriage and Divorce search, listing date of birth, 1832, that they lived and married in PA (just to check but not knowing obviously). In each and every case it offered me thousands of possibilities. In the case of William Cook, for example, it offered me 21 thousand matches, 3600 in London, 400 or so in each of the following states – MA, MO, ILL, TN. OH, IND etc etc. Patent nonsense and it was the same for all of the names I tried. For the time being at least, I have given up on Ancestry searches as all I get is false directions I am not interested In pursuing. Obviously, as Eileen has discovered, the Family Trees bear fruit and that is worth persevering with. Meanwhile, I will stick to what I am good at – Google searching. Anything that is attached to an http:// should show up if I can find the right keywords.
The point about incarceration for little or no reason in a mental institution in those days is well made. A common reason of course was of pregnancy outside of wedlock in a young single woman without a man to support her. These unfortunates spent all or most of their natural days in asylums, or at least until they were beyond child-bearing age. Their cases were a disgrace on the medical profession and nothing less than institutionalised cruelty. I once came upon ancient records of commitment in the bowels of an asylum and the parchment which was the application for detention said at the top ‘To be Completed by Friends of Idiots’. So it did not even require a male relative to do the dirty deed. In Roseannah’s case, I agree, there is no evidence of the husband wanting to know her anymore, he just abandoned her. Perhaps he had met another woman and he had not even wanted her to join him in the US as she had followed on later.
Eileen Breen
November 22, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Two points:
I don’t think the problems are solely the responsibility of Ancestry. On the earliest manifests and census records they only asked name, country of origin and occupation. As you look at subsequent censuses and ship manifests a little more identifying information has been added. By the 1930s their ship manifests and census records were very detailed. Ancestry is not as good as going to a local library. I think a road trip is in order!
I’m not sure early census takers realized the important job they had. Often mistakes were made when a census worker didn’t understand what someone told them or they didn’t know the correct spelling of the name. If the person never had to go to the town hall to look for a birth or death record, or never even saw a census record as records are kept private in the US for 70 years, the record was never corrected. I do agree Ancestry could have done a much better job at transcribing or have let the record stand without the transcription.
Point 2 is – I think the Watsons took the Laborers from the John Stamp and the laborers from the Prudence and that equals the exact number of the men they claim to have been at Duffy’s Cut. A while back you put up a list From John Ruddy to William Diven on the John Stamp but nothing popped out at me. Too many choices. As for the J.S. weavers, Doak, Rice and Ewing I didn’t find anything. Adam Diamond may be John Diamond – Roseanne D. McQuillin’s brother. From J.S. From McGhee to McIlheany I didn’t find anything either. There was a possibility of a John Doak marrying a Catherine Allison in Canada and there was a tree on line. I wrote to their family as well as to Roseanne Diamond’s family but there has been no return email. There was a Letitia Risk on Ancestry and I wrote to the tree owner but he didn’t have any information. There were a few with that name on Ancestry.
Also Rebecca Stewart is a very popular name on Ancestry. BTW: I saw someone’s tree with over twenty people in the tree with a first name, Rebecca. That was the one with Rebecca Stewart on it. From Fanny Mahon to Elizabeth Willkinson I didn’t find anything. The name Sally Loman I thought might be a wrong spelling for Sally Lemon or Lamon. I saw a PA church death record in Philadelphia for one who was buried in Laurel Hill Cemetery, Philadelphia.
I didn’t get to the rest of the list from McKendrick to Leitch. You said you found the Leitch family? We also have info on the Atkinson family and a family contact. That might be a story. Several people on Ancestry are researching this family and a large tree seems to connect to the Ancestry tree on Rootsweb.
We also have the Campbell/Shaw story. I think we could make something of two families who made a choice to go to PA. One family had the support of a family at home but they didn’t seem to connect to Philadelphia. The other moved to Philadelphia, then Illinois, leaving their family at home. They made connections within their community, school and church. Their son became a prominent Lawyer, judge and speaker of the House in Illinois.
Happy Thanksgiving! 🙂
Don MacFarlane
November 22, 2012 at 3:20 pm
I am happy that Mary is beavering away, putting the bones to a chapter. Likewise, that Eileen is as dogged in rooting out any scraps or nuggets that are there to be found. Me? I’m on a mission here as I see this project as the missing link for ‘The Sea is Wide’ book which was very thin on family history pertaining to America. It now adds weight to the chapter that I already have from Vic.
I don’t really mind being frustrated by the big inadequacies of Ancestry because that can be highlighted in the chapter which I think could turn out to be quite unique. Having read several ancestor-hunting books, I think there is a great lack of intellectual honesty in them, much like in the Watsons whom I have a bee in my bonnet about, that totally minimises the challenges that are entailed. I await with interest what Mary comes up with.
Don MacFarlane
November 22, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Philadelphia Street Directory 1862
How about this!
http://archive.org/stream/mcelroysphiladel1862amce#page/14/mode/2up
Don MacFarlane
November 22, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Street Directory
Aiken (Aikin/Aikens) – nine (sugarmaker, engineer, labourer etc).
Arthur(Arthurs) – four (blacksmith, clerk etc).
Baird, James – four (hotel workers etc).
Ballantine – six (labourer, plasterer etc).
Barber, William – four (machinist, dealer etc).
Barr, James – four (labourer, sailor, clerk etc).
Barton, James – two (grocers)
Birney – two (labourer, carpenter).
The rest to follow and all of interest will be placed in the spreadsheet under sheet three (to be renamed PA rather than Ancestry). The impression is that this street directory could be a lot more useful in giving leads? Granted it is thirty years later but most of the emigrants will still have been well within working age.
Eileen Breen
November 20, 2012 at 8:05 pm
I’m concerned about the title “On The Run” as I’m a little protective of the McQuillin story. There are also many of Roseanne and Thomas McQuillin’s GG-grandchildren who have an emotional as well as a familial tie to them. ‘On the Run’ feels like a negative connotation. I think perhaps the title ‘The Sacrifice’ may be better suited.
They say that a mother has a special bond with her first born, perhaps she and her eldest son, John, have this connection. They spent two years alone and two months aboard the ship to come to America. It’s unknown if they had the same disposition but I think they may have had. This mother had to send four sons off to the American Civil War was from 1861-1865. She may not have heard from them during this period and to not know if her sons were injured, missing or dead, must have been heartbreaking. Families had to check the newspapers on a daily basis to see if their loved ones were dead. Many mothers experienced the stress of loss, grief, and the fear of not knowing what happened to their sons. It wasn’t until nurses in the newly formed American Red Cross wrote to families telling them the fate of their sons that mothers and families learned what happened to them.
“To realize what war is”, Union General Sherman wrote to his wife in 1863, “one must follow our tracks…we have devoured the land. All the people retire before us, and desolation is behind.”
Just a side note: Lincoln’s wife, Mary Todd, coped with losing her mother and a son, and was about to lose her husband, by picking out expensive fabric and wallpaper for the White House. For very elaborately decorating the White House during the time when men were dying by the thousands, she was sharply criticized for this.
Eileen Breen
November 18, 2012 at 3:40 pm
I think I found from the John Stamp:
Rosannah Diamond’s GG-Grand-daughter, Laura, has put up a lot of interesting information, photos of Blockly, and other documents. Rosannah’s husband left Ireland two years prior. When Rosannah came to Philadelphia in 1832 on the John Stamp she had a two year old son, John, with her. After having four more children she was at least three times committed to the ‘lunatic’ section of Blockley Almshouse. One one occasion she escaped or eloped from the facility.
Her brother, not Adam (perhaps they got his name wrong on the manifest) but John, put an advertisement in a newspaper with her description. It is believed she returned to the facility where she was committed to the same unit for a third time. The family researched day-books and ledgers from the facility. There were numerous entries where a mother was committed with all of her children but her children lived with her husband until he died several months later from dysentery.
The children were scattered among relatives. A child aged eleven was sent to work on a farm with relatives. By then, Rosannah had been committed for about three years. She died from Asiatic Cholera after being ill for three days during the third cholera pandemic. If you go to the J.S. tree, and look at Rosannah’s profile, I updated photos from this family and their stories. There are more details I can add. There is also a lot of info if you look at the McQuillins who were in the Civil War, all the battles they were in and the Irish regiment they fought with.
As the generations unfolded all the men were at war, incluing WWI and WWII. There also was a riot of Catholics Vs Protestant in 1844 in the Kennsington neighborhood in Philadelphia and an interesting photo goes with this as well, also many photos and stories of the Stinson family in the Civil War.
Eileen Breen
November 18, 2012 at 2:10 am
The Diamond/McQuillin/Stinson Tree:
Only Rosanne Diamond was on the John Stamp. The McQuillin and Sinson families were part of that family so when we talk about Roseanne do we mention these other families? The McQuillins and Stinsons are interesting. The Stinsons had four brothers who enlisted in the Civil War and thetbserved together in the 69th PA which was an Irish regiment. They survived being in a prison camp and they survived the war. In one battle where over a thousand men started the battle but only fifty three survived, including the Stinson brothers. Roseanne Diamond died at Blockly Almshouse from cholera but not during the 1832 pandemic. She died in the third pandemic.
Eileen Breen
November 18, 2012 at 12:35 am
I just received a message from a lady named Marge who is on Ancestry. She says she’s a relative of Ellen Stinson who married a McQuillin. They were first cousins. We came to this tree by Roseanne Diamond on the John Stamp. The McQuillin and Stinson tree originates in County Antrim, Ireland. Her tree might be private because I couldn’t find it. I asked her for information.
Don MacFarlane
November 18, 2012 at 9:36 am
I think I have managed to locate the place called Knockan where James McHenry came from. It is in the parish of Banagher in County Derry. I have quite a bit of information on Banagher from 1834 which would give a good feel for what conditions were like around then. There is another place called Aughnish nearby and one or more of our waxwings come from there but I can’t think who as I have over-written the earlier version of the database that information was in but I will keep looking.
For now, a few snippets on Banagher from two sources, one downloadable free on Google
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=AfdKAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&authuser=0&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA246
and the other can be got on Amazon, ‘Parishes of Londonderry 1833-35’ from Angelique Day and Patrick McWilliams, Volume 30. There are volumes on all of the parishes in Ulster, this being just one of them.
‘one cause of the partitioning of land is the indolence of some people not worthy of the title of farmer. These men think it better to rackrent to subtenants and sit clear as they call it. These people prefer to walk about with their hands in their pockets’.
‘one of His Lordship’s tenants, Mr McCausland of Fruithill, advanced money to his labourers in distressing times, knowing that it was more their wish than in their power to repay. Pitying their situation he drew his pen over their accounts and ordered them to begin again’.
‘it is in vain to preach to the inhabitants of Myroe how much better it would be to have their fuel of coals landed on the beach, even at two pounds a ton, rather than be employed one-quarter of the year cutting and drawing home turf from mountains six miles distant for the other nine months’.
‘when roads have been opened through previously unnoticed tracts, the value of these bogs will be known and emigrations to districts of potatoes and good fields will succeed those to beyond the Atlantic’.
Note that the person who wrote this stuff, Rev George Vaughan Sampson (1763-1827), Church of Ireland rector, probably never dirtied his hands in his life and lived off the tithes of the people he was preaching to and writing about!
Don MacFarlane
November 18, 2012 at 10:58 am
Reverend Sampson Continues.
‘the same tradesman is a mason, weaver, slater, bricklayer and labourer with a spade. The best carpenter gets 3s 6d per day; daily labourers receive 1s 6d; labourers hired by a farmer receive lodgings and three guineas per half-year; cottiers are allowd 9d per day and a cabin’.
‘beef or mutton per pound is 4d; oatmeal per ten lb is 35d and potatoes per 14 lb is 10d. Fresh butter per lb. is 12d. By season, in March Indian meal is sold for 2s 6d per peck of 10lb; in July chickens per couple are 10d, herrings are 5s per hundred, cod are 2s each! large flounders ar 6d each; in November fresh salmon is 8d per pound’.
Eileen Breen
November 17, 2012 at 11:14 pm
Four years ago sites like Ancestry.com exploded onto the genealogy stage. Prior to this, studying family history was brought to the forefront by historian and author, Alex Haley. In the 1980s he documented his family’s legacy, from Africa to the demeaning and horrifying consequences of the slave trade in the southern United States.
A popular television program also has swept the US by storm ‘Who Do You Think You Are’. The program explores celebrities’ lives as they learn about their families beginnings and their part in who they have become. In some cases a person being interviewed by the celebrity knew a great deal about their grandparents, great-grandparents and beyond.
The show’s premise is to suggest that knowing where we came from, whether the Old World or the new, makes us keepers of our relatives’ photos, secrets, written and oral history. From thst we may transform to people we hope to or aspire to be.
Currently, genealogy is the number one hobby in the United States. As for myself, studying my genealogy for about four years started with a curiosity on seeing a box of old pictures with no names. As a historian of my family’s legacy I have learned about individual stories, issues that may have caused them to immigrate, and their lives in the United States. I have also met relatives from several states and I have made a connection to family in Scotland and Ireland. I have also developed friendships with fellow-students of the history of the Irish people.
Two months ago, our Irish History group took on a challenge. We heard about a story about young men from Ireland who had perished along Mile 59 in an area called Duffy’s Cut in Malvern, Pennsylvania. Our interest peaked when the names on the memorial to these men did not seem to coincide with names from Ireland in the 183os. The group entered over seven hundred names from four ships in the Ancestry.com database. We researched censuses from the United States from the 1840s-1900s and to the present day. This allowed us to research a multitude of data from finding out histories of those living in Pennsylvania in the 1830s, city and state archieves, and connecting to Ancestry.com members, their family trees, photographs and personal histories. We attempted to correct the spelling of passenger names on the ships’ lengthy manifests. We took into account how names were spelled in Ireland during the 1830s as well as where families may have come to from Derry, Donegal, Tyrone, Antrim and surrounding townlands and counties. We also considered whatreligious, economic, social or personal considerations may have caused someone to immigrate.
A major challenge was the deciphering of the endless multitude of transcription errors from the ship manifests. We looked at other variations of transcribed ship manifests for comparison and made contact with The Ship Transcriber’s Guild. Much of this has been well-educated guess-work, especially of how a name might be entered on the manifest. Since no relationship was made clear between passengers on the manifests this provided a challenge. in some cases a guess could be made that families were travelling together. This was not as easy for an individual travelling abroad.
One ship did not have a place of residence, only the name of the individual and his occupation. By looking at the source of the name we may have found casual relationships suggesting that some may have been of the Presbyterian faith. The ships we looked at were in 1832 and some emigrants may have travelled from Derry to Philadelphia in the first wave of immigration to the United States. By looking at the four manifests one could see types of occupations available to Irish people. Farmers and weavers topped the list. Women were documented as ‘spinsters’ but this was seen as those who were unmarried, may have had a job in domestic service or in the mills, or were dependent for their care. Even female children were entered as a “spinster”. We could not find out much about the females passengers traveling as individuals but we were able to find a few families that traveled together.
Male occupations were shoemakers, of which we found only four on all the manifests, blacksmiths, masons, stone cutters, cutters, gilders and painters. On the first ship, the barque John Stamp, the majority of occupations were laborers and farmers. The Prudence also had laborers and farmers as the top occupations. The Ontario had a majority of farmers and and the Asia had farmers and no laborers. They also had a few other trade occupations. On two ships we found a gentleman travelling alone.
The Ancestry.com database has limits but this may in part be due to the quality of the information entered on early ship manifests and census records. In the 1900s documents had more detailed information pertaining on name, finance, ownership or rental status, relationships between those living in a household, place of residence, occupation, date of naturalization, place of employment and military service. In 1830s, the only details captured were name, occupation, places and times of ship departure and arrival. On three out of four ships a last residence was given, not the place of birth.
The more information plugged into the database the better results were. The Ancestry.com family trees provided a history of the family, photos and in some cases details of how to contact a family to check if we the search was on the right trail. There is a pitfall however that many people may unthinkingly replicate copy an erroneous family tree or other mistake an earlier researcher may have made.
Family trees provide a basic framework for research but it is better to use a variety of databases and do the research oneself or with friends and family. It is nice to write to families and exchange photos or stories you may not have.
Where it has not been possible to correct the list of men listed on the Duffy’s Cut memorial this has been due to several factors. Entries on ship manifests were difficult to read owing to penmanship or mis-spelling of a name or lack of information on the manifest. Names of men in some cases were just not found or were one of several or multiple choices of the name in the Philadelphia and surrounding states.
A few families on ship manifests were interesting. Their trees were found on Ancestry.com and in three cases a family member verified the history – the Campbell/Shaw Family, te Akin Family and the Rosanne Diamond/McQuillan Family. Two other families with information on them were Rebecca Stewart/John McClay Family and the Leitch Family. Vic Barnett also had a David Baird in his family,one of a line of Baird cabinet makers, possibly connected to Philadelphia.
Eileen Breen
November 18, 2012 at 12:05 am
Don, I think you should also put in your methodology for your searches in Ireland.
Eileen Breen
November 20, 2012 at 3:02 am
I agree with you that the records are very ambiguous. Without details you can’t figure it out. I had better luck looking at people’s trees, comparing them with the dates we had from the ships. Also cemetery records and tombstones were helpful. The majority of the searches had too many people with the same names. I also had luck when I looked at who corrected names on the manifests. That’s how I found the Campbell/Shaw family. Also contacting families helps.
Even looking at my own personal tree, when I knew the name and address, it was still difficult be ause of errors on the records. It’s great that we have four people with a different view and approach to research in US and Ireland to do this. To try to do this alone would be very difficult. If it wasn’t for don, Mary and Vic I don’t think I would have done this type of research.
Eileen Breen
November 17, 2012 at 9:31 pm
Early farmers in Ireland and US did not have knowledge of how to keep the soil sustainable and keep nutrition in the soil. Poor tenant farmers did not have modern tools, knowledge and the financial means to purchase a variety of crops. When the potato blight came to Ireland the Irish only planted one type of potato. When this crop failed two more times in subsequent years the Irish were destitute. When farmers learned to rotate and plant a variety of crops the soil improved.
A similar problem occurred in 1930s in the West in the US when the land was stripped of its top soil by farmers who over-tilled the soil. This resulted in a great cloud of dust that spread from the west to the east coast. As a result there was a famine. Many farmers were told there were a lot of jobs in California so many people migrated to the western state only to find out that there were no jobs there. Thousands more perished along the way.
Politicians who were in the position to assist the farmers did not believe that the impending dust cloud was coming and that farmers throughout the western states were about to go through a famine of massive proportions. Only when congress men in Washington saw first-hand the soil in the air in the form of a dust cloud that blackened the daylight from the sky that came from the west and traveled to Washington D.C. did they begin to implement programs to correct the balance of the layers of the soil.
They planted millions of trees that were removed by farmers and the land was cleared from Canada to the Southwest for farmland. The trees would hold down the topsoil and block the wind. The farmers participated in training programs on how to plant on the hills and in certain patterns so the soil would remain renewable. Currently, because of the drought in the west and overuse of the soil the western states are again seeing enormous, blinding dust clouds. There have been shortages of water and crops in the west.
It seems that we have come full circle, yet we are continuing with the same problems. Ireland and US needs to support the farmers and keep our small farmers in business. Currently, large corporations have bought large tracts of land in the US and participate in farming without environmental consideration. ‘Those who don’t remember their past are doomed to repeat it’ will soon be their motto.
Eileen Breen
November 15, 2012 at 10:04 pm
The majority of the Presidents with ancestors from Northern Ireland were Democrats. Democrats were the dominant party in the Southern states during the slavery era and now extends to Northeast, Mid Atlantic states, Great Lakes Region, Pacific coast and Hawaii. The Democratic Party favors farmers, laborers, labor unions, religious and ethnic minorities. The party also favors the present day progressive income taxes, affirmative action, a balanced budget, a free enterprise system, a belief that government should relieve poverty and fight social injustice. The party opposes unregulated business and finance. These presidents paved the way for the Irish and other minority groups to own land, participate in government at all levels, receive aid, participate in unions that gave these minority groups a voice in the workplace and abolished unscrupulous governmental policies where wealthy land owners earn a profit on the birth and labor of an oppressive class.
President Thomas Jefferson documented on his Monticello farm he earned a 4% profit on each slave he owned. Presidents with roots in northern Ireland had a great impact on American politics and the welfare of the Irish in America; U.S. Grant (1861-1865), Buchanan, A. Johnson, C. Arthur (Republican) opposed slavery. Polk reformed the national Banking System and Cleveland dedicated the Statue Of Liberty in 1886. President Andrew Jackson was a slave owner but he believed that free white men should be able to own land. Before this only the white wealthy slave owners could own land. Slave owners ruled the government, courts and prevented non-slave owners and men in the lower and middle class from acquiring land and political power.
During the American Civil War 38 Union regiments had the title “Irish”. There were 144, 221 Union soldiers from Ireland and an equal number of soldiers who had Irish ancestry. Conscription was opposed by the Irish and as a typical Irish immigrant was unable to afford the $300.00 commutation fee to avoid the draft this resulted in riots in NYC. Recent immigrants felt that emancipated slaves were in competition with them for jobs. President Cleveland avoided conscription by paying someone $150.00 to take his place in the Civil War. Although the practice was legal he received much heat in his political career for this arrangement.
In 1820-1860 and as a result of the Great Famine 1.9 million immigrants came from Ireland to the major east coast ports. Unable to afford the costs of supporting a family many individuals left Ireland for America. The Irish Catholics worked in interior improvement projects on the canals, railroads, sewers, construction sites, mill work and in physical work of the public works projects in the northeast and southern states. Irish woman during this period favored the labor-intensive 24/7 position of domestic service. The position paid better wages than mill-work and housing was provided but was considered demeaning and the work was difficult.
The Irish had been discriminated against in the workplace. President Chester Arthur (1881-1885), who was a Republican, was an attorney known for high profile civil rights movement cases in the courts. He led the way towards civil rights reform and as a result desegregation of the public transportation system in NYC was enacted into law. His other bills included that the distribution of government jobs be distributed on merit which angered many. and political donations were not allowed to be given by governmental employees.
Since Irish immigration to America in 1830’s many American presidents have claimed Irish ancestry. Democratic presidents include: Jackson, Van Buren, Polk, Pierce, Buchanan, A. Johnson, Cleveland, Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, L.B. Johnson, Carter and Obama.
Mary Cornell
November 16, 2012 at 7:12 pm
Looking into Lord Hill, I found this. No surprises here.
On the living conditions in Lord Hill’s acreage 1837- http://www.vindicator.ca/history/famine/timesDonegal4.html
Foster took considerable pains to detail conditions in this area prior to Lord Hill’s purchase of his estate, using extracts from a memorial drawn up in 1837 by the resident schoolmaster, one Patrick McKye, who sought to impress upon the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland the stark poverty of its people. McKye brought to his task the experience of a well-travelled man of his times.
In his memorial he stated: “the parishioners of this parish of West Tullaghabegley, in the barony of Kilmacrennan and county of Donegal, are in the most needy, hungry, and naked condition of any people that ever came within the precincts of my knowledge, although I have travelled a part of nine counties in Ireland, also a part of England and Scotland, together with a part of British America. I have likewise perambulated 2,253 miles through some of the United States, and never witnessed the tenth part of such hunger, hardship, and nakedness.”
McKye cited statistics in support of his case. Using the census of 1831 he gave the population as 9,049, with “but one cart and one plough, 20 shovels, 32 rakes, 2 feather beds, and 8 chaff beds. None of their married or unmarried women can afford more than one shift, and some cannot afford any; more than one-half of both men and women cannot afford shoes to their feet, nor can many of them afford a second bed, but whole families of sons and daughters of mature age indiscriminately lie together with their parents.
They have no means of harrowing their land but with meadow rakes. Their farms are so small that from four to ten farms can be harrowed in a day with one rake. Their beds are straw, green and dried rushes, or mountain bent; their bedclothes are either coarse sheets, or no sheets, and ragged filthy blankets; and, worse than all I have mentioned, there is a general prospect of starvation.”
These were the conditions before the famine. The article goes on to further state that the only obstacle for his lordship in improving the land was the continued presence of the aboriginal Irish on the land.
Don MacFarlane
November 17, 2012 at 9:44 am
Thanks for sourcing the intriguing book of TC Foster which can be downloaded free. A short extract from it sets the tone:
‘except in Northern Ireland, the middle-class man is termed a middleman – a perfectly useless drone, aping the manners and habits of the class above him, living on a profit-rent which he neither uses skill nor exertion to enable his wretched under-tenants to realize. His superior knowledgs never directs them . He is of no use to society’.
‘the upper classes on the other hand almost entirely neglect their duties. These well-disposed but mere nominal owners of their estates are in apprehension of their lives and leave to agents the duties of their positions, and so the door for neglect and abuse is left open’.
The gist of the rest of Foster’s book is that 80% of Irish peasantry, which formed the bulk of the population, lived off a piece of sub-letted land of between 1-15 acres, insufficient to support an exponentially increasing extended family. They had no money and any outside occupation that the 20% had was seasonal. Emigration to North America or England was the safety-valve and this source of cheap labour created hardship for home-grown labourers who became jobless.
In other words, the aristocrats fiddled while Rome burned. Foster is more inclined however to blame the infantile, lazy and feckless Irish for living off scraps and Poorhouse hand-outs and not getting off their own backsides. This being his position, Foster is seemingly amazed at the vitriol he received when all he was trying to do was to help! The truth of the matter was staring him in the face but he chose to take the easy way out. Instead, he blamed the powerless, something which he said in his Introduction that he would not do.
I think we have enough material gathered together to have a good stab at a short chapter on all of this for ‘The Sea is Wide’. Any volunteers to write it? I won’t be taking the lead on this as I already have a couple of chapters written for the book. See PDF DraftEagla at top of the FFT page under the United irishmen portrait.
The bones of the chapter (sorry about the pun!) appears first and if everything is put in the past tense to say what we did so far I think that piece passes muster.
The crux of the chapter would be about he brick walls we have encountered so far, even with Ancestry.com, and to point out that this is a long-term project with no easy fixes. In other words, the Watsons’ job albeit it is already ten years in the making is only half-finished, even although they choose not to acknoweledge the fact. I have made no reference so far to our partial successes so someone could reiew where we are at with that. Excluded should be any names that have only the most tangential or weakest of connections with our waxwings.
Don MacFarlane
November 17, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Maybe so. There is no great rush but a first stab at the chapter might give a clear framework for further lines of enquiry? Also,it might set clear parameters which we don’t stray too far beyond?
Already I think I’ve lost track a bit. Could you sketch out for me again how we arrived at these families being connected to our waxwings:
Diamond/McQuillan
Leitches
Campbell/Shaw
McClay/Stewart
In other words, what were the the vital clues that cinched them. Can these types of clue or link be replicated for other cases and if not why not? Were they just fortuitous? What have the brick walls or blind alleys been so far for cases that have peetered out? In other words, what does an interim progress report look like. This is maybe something Vic can assist us with, be a project manager in other words, as he has the right background, past and present, and he has a very methodical frame of mind. Certainly much more than my will-of-the-wisp approach to things.
Don MacFarlane
November 17, 2012 at 2:50 pm
From Martin Dowling
It has been many years since I paid attention to these issues, or to the evidence of land values in Ulster,but the following factors are probably relevant. One is that there was a century-long trend in agricultural and cottage-industry prices which put pressure on tenants of less than five acres of land, even though the pre-famine decades saw an explosion of this type of farming household in the west. Improving landlords like George Hill imagined after the famine that small farms might be sustainable if rationally laid out, but they were wrong. By the end of the century it was apparent that only farms of much greater size than was typical in the west were sustainable enterprises. Another factor is that as the decades passed, and particularly after the land legislation of the 1870s and 1880s took effect, the power of landlords to exacerbate this scenario by raising real rents and threatening tenures was greatly reduced. Neither exploiters nor philanthropists, they became increasingly irrelevant to the economic decisions made by farmers. Finally, the productivity of land (as grazing and as arable) was highly variable. Large areas of Donegal remained pretty much worthless as potential sources of rental income from market-oriented farmers. Again, I would say that variation in land values in the 1880s might not be as strongly linked to the variation in landlord management practices as it was to proximity to ports and urban markets, land quality, etc.
Don MacFarlane
November 17, 2012 at 4:30 pm
Reply from me to Martin Dowling
Thanks for the quick reply and that input. BTW I found your book a very enjoyable read which has stuck with me, not something I can say about most things I read. I understand you have left this field of study behind you so I shall trouble you no more over it. I will however keep digging to try to figure out why valuations pre-Famine varied so widely, even allowing for the points you made.
Donegal
Ballintra – £900 for three thousand acres to Arthur Foster; £800 for nine thousand acres to James Hamilton.
Lifford- £1250 for three thousand acres to Eliza Harvey; £500 for thirteen thousand acres to J Humphries.
Tyrone
Omagh – £1500 for four thousand acres to Alexander McCausland; £3300 for sixteen thousand acres to Sir William McMahon.
Moy – £7000 for six thousand acres to the Earl of Charlemont; £6500 for sixteen thousand acres to Sir William Verner.
Don MacFarlane
November 17, 2012 at 5:39 pm
Waxwing Shortlist
A few more names possibly easier to track down:
Culbertson (Clogherny, Tyrone)
Diermond (Conwal, also known as Letterkenny, Donegal)
Carland or Garland (Ardstraw, Tyrone)
McGettigan (Clonleigh, also known as Lifford, Donegal)
McIlwaine (Donaghenry, Tyrone)
McKnight (Bodoney, Tyrone)
McNutt (Templemore, Derry)
McQuade (Dromore, Tyrone)
Southwell (Killyshandra, Cavan)
Stringer (Loughgall)
Mary Cornell
November 17, 2012 at 7:32 pm
I do agree with Eileen that we have not thoroughly researched yet, but we do need to set some sort of framework for the chapter for further research as Don said.
General framework for consideration-
I. Conditions in Ireland which led to emigration.
II. Emigrants and what they found in Philadelphia, cholera, discrimination, et al.
A. emphasis on John Stamp passengers
B. Asia, Prudence and Ontario
III Philip Duffy and the “Cut”
IV Brickwalls, inconclusive evidence, further research, and conclusion
Our main focus for “The Sea is Wide’ needs to be a very narrowed down focus on “Duffy’s Cut,” the more detailed information we have been finding fits in more with the larger book idea.
Eileen Breen
November 15, 2012 at 7:55 pm
FFT: American Presidents with family ties to Northern Ireland: Andrew Jackson 1829-1837: parents from: Carrickfergus, Antrim; James Polk Parents one of the first Ulster Scottish settlers in Coleraine; James Buchanan 1857-61 parents Deroran, Omagh, Tyrone; Andrew Johnson: 1865-69 grandfather from Mounthill, Larne, Antrim: US Grant: 1869-77 Great Grandfather from Dergenagh, Tyrone; Chester Arthur Dreen, Cullybackey, Antrim; Grover Clevland family from Antrim; William McKinley Conagher, Ballymoney, Antrim; T. Roosevelt: Glencoe. There are at least 10 more presidents that are on the list. The list is impressive from County Antrim.
Eileen Breen
November 15, 2012 at 7:02 pm
Ancestry is down today. I was looking at Frank Joseph McQuillan: he was a Press Feeder (printer). He lived in Philadelphia his entire life. Was drafted for WWi and WWII (Age 60) “Old Man’s Army” so he probably didn’t go. His brother Charles T., was an engineer (stationary). His sisters: Mary J. was a carpet weaver, Angeline was a Burler (cloth), and youngest brother John was a day laborer.
I’ll try Ancestry later. I have tried to check out the hints on the trees. What’s happening with the Leitch family. I couldn’t find much on ancestry so it’s great you found them another way!
Eileen Breen
November 15, 2012 at 2:53 am
We discussed briefly slavery in America at the time our immigrants came. I was also thinking they had obstacles in US as well from owning land or becoming wealthy. The political machine and those who owned slaves in America prevented the Irish from owning land. There are at least three presidents were slave owners: Washington, Jefferson and Jackson. There are two magazines out Oct 2012: Secrets Of American History Unmasking Thomas Jefferson: Smithsonian Magazine and Time Magazine has a special edition on Abraham Lincoln. I found this in the Target Store. Also coming out soon is the film Lincoln.
Eileen Breen
November 13, 2012 at 10:17 pm
I’m thinking the churches of all religions came to America to fill a niche. As people found cities like Philadelphia too crowded they moved further west. As the masses used the waterways and railroads as a means to get further into the interior, homes, businesses and the churches of all faiths appeared along the railroads and canals. It seems like a more natural transition than a scheme by the churches to tame its flock. It may have been a goal of churches to establish congregations as they traveled along the rails in the new communities. When leaders saw a group of say Catholics, Moravians, Protestants, Methodists, Episcopalians or Presbyterians living within a community they then established a house of worship.
Don MacFarlane
November 14, 2012 at 4:35 pm
I have completed entering the data into the spreadsheet on landowning in Ireland for the three counties we are looking at. An eyeball test will throw up some immediate impressions and a bit more drilling down should reveal more. Any household on at least an acre of land was recorded in this land census of 1876. Granted it is a generation later and the Great Famine had intervened but the following surnames of emigrants on our ships had little or no land but claimed to be farmers:
Boal
Bryan
Deery
Edgar
Fergie
Fowler
Gregory
Griffin
Harrold
Hay
Higgins
Hood
Kernahan
McClay
McHenry
McPhelimy
McQuade
McQuigg
Menagh
Nee
Reid
Rich
Shaw
Snodgrass
Southwell
Stringer
Shaw
Woods
I would take from this that they were posing as Farmers whereas they were labourers or farmhands, hence potential rail – fodder.
The following who claimed to be farmers shared a surname with major landowners:
Birney
Caldwell
Cochrane
Fleming
Greer
Kyle
Lecky
I would take from this that they were poor relations or young turks on the make, possibly sent off with money in their pockets, who looked the part and should have landed on their feet. If they then fell upon hard times they had a better chance of hoofing it back to Ireland.
Don MacFarlane
November 14, 2012 at 5:52 pm
Major Landowners (over 1000 acres)
Donegal
Duke of Abercorn – 16k (Newtownstewart) £10.5k R
John Adair – 16k (Glenveagh)£0.5k ** K
Earl of Arran – 7k (Donegal) £3k T
Thomas Atkinson – 3.5k (Cavangarden) £1k
Baptist Johnston Barton – 8k (Milford)£1.5k * K
Thomas Batt – 4.5k (Ramelton)£2k K
John Beresford – 1.5k (Ashbrook)£0.5k
John Boyd – 5k (Letterkenny)£2k R
Ebenezer Bustard – 10k (Dunkineely)£2.5k * Ba
Tristram Carey – 4k (Moville) £0.5k ** I
Thomas Colquhoun – 2k (Buncrana) £1.2k I
Thomas Connolly – 23k £6k **
Marquess of Conyngham – 123k £15k** Ba/Bo/R
Richard Doherty – 6.5k (Redcastle) £2k I
Marquess of Donegal – 5.5k £1.5k
Earl of Erne – 5k (Newtownbutler)£4.3k** R
William Fenwick – 5k (Raphoe)£1k ** R
Arthur Forster – 8k (Dunloe)£0.3k ** K
Arthur Foster – 3k (Ballintra)£0.9k T
Samuel Gililland – 4k (Derry)£1.25k
George Harte – 7k (Muff) £2.3k I
Eliza Harvey c/o J Cochrane – 3k (Lifford) £1.25k R
George Harvey – 10k (Malin) £2.7k I
Samuel Hayes – 23k (Stranorlar) £6.5k * R
More to follow, so far that is about 210 thousand acres, or over three hundred square miles held in the hands of major landowners in Donegal.
Lord George Hill – 25k (Ramelton) £1.3k ** K
J Humphries – 13k (Lifford) £0.5k ** R
Anne Hamilton – 4k (Killybegs) £0.4k ** Ba
James Hamilton – 9k (Ballintra) £0.8k ** T
John Hamilton – 9.5k (St Ernans) £2k **
Viscount Lifford – 11k (Meenglass) £0.8k **
Richard Key – 9k (Dunlewey) £0.2k ** K
Earl of Leitrim – 54k £9k **
Robert Montgomery – 9k (Raphoe) £3.6k ** R
Courtenay Newton – 10k £2k**
Wybrants Olphert – 19k (Falcarragh) £1.8k ** K
Samuel Rankin – 5k (Carndonagh) £1.4k* I
William Style – 40k (Glenmore) £4k **
Lord Templemore – 11k £7k *
Alexander Stewart – 40k £10k **
Charles Stewart – 5k (Dunfanaghy) £0.6k * K
Tredenicks Esq. – 9.5k (Ballyshannon) £3k* T
Earl of Wicklow – 6.5k £4.8k*
George Young – 8k (Culdaff) £2.4k* I
Total:
Area of Donegal: 1.2 million acres or fifteen hundred square miles.
1170 Owners of less than one acre: 339 acres. Rent: £286k
1000 Owners of more than one acre: 1.17 million acres. Rent:£54k
Unless my arithmetic is all wonky, the list is riddled with clear cases of daylight robbery and extortion by the rich upon the poor. The less land you had, the more rent you paid for it, often by a factor of a hundred viz 50p (a dollar) per acre for the rich versus £50 per acre (100 dollars) for the poor. No wonder at that rate that people fell so badly behind in their rent. The situation (see later) was far worse in Derry where poor people were being squeezed by the fatcats in the City of London. And still the Unionists insist on calling it (london)Derry!
Excuse my intemperate comments but, as a Presbyterian Gaelic-speaking Scottish Nationalist, I have no axe to grind in the vexed Ulster Question. I can see it from both sides.
Click to access donegal.pdf
Don MacFarlane
November 14, 2012 at 7:18 pm
Major Landowners in Tyrone (over 1000 acres each).
Duke of Abercorn – 48k (Newtownstewart). Rent £25k
Mervyn Archdale – 5.5 (Lisnanick).Rent £3.5k
Earl of Belmore – 14.5. Rent £7.5k
Thomas Browne – 10k (Fivemiletown)£4k
William Black – 3k (Omagh)£0.8k
G Brackenridge – 2.6k (Clogher) £0.8k
Earl of Caledon – 29k (Caledon)£16.5k
Earl of Castlestuart – 33k (Castlestuart)£11.8k
Earl of Charlemont – 6k (Moy)£7k
Louise de Bille – 10.5k (Cookstown)£1.8k *
John Eccles – 9k (Fintona)£5k
Francis Gervais – 8k (Augher)£5k
Moutrey Gledstanes – 3k (Clogher)£1k
Joseph Goff – 5.5k (Dungannon)£4k
Robert Gordon – 7.8k £1.2k *
Arthur Cole-Hamilton – 17k (Gortin)£4.5k *
James Greer – 7k (Omagh)£3k
James Gunning – 6k (Cookstown)£4.2k
Robert Lowry – 8k (Dungannon)£4k
Alexander McCausland – 4k (Omagh)£1.5k
Major McClintock – 4.5k(Omagh)£3.2k *
Sir William McMahon – 16k (Omagh)£3.3k *
H Montgomery – 5k (Fivemiletown)£2.5k
Rev J Moutray – 7k (Aughnacloy)£5k *
Claud Ogilby – 7k (Donemana)£3.5k
Earl of Ranfurly – 9.5k (Dungannon)£11k **
Viscount Powerscourt – 9k £8.3k **
Michael Smith – 11k £1.5k *
Sir John Stewart – 28k (Ballygawley)£6.5k *
Sir William Verner – 16k (Moy)£6.5k
Total:
1717 owners of land of above one acre. Total acreage (775 thousand). Rent £400k.
1070 owners of less than one acre. Total acreage (270 acres). Rent £17.5k.
As with Donegal, it costs a hundred times as much to be poor as it does to be rich.
Landowners marked * charged noticeably more than or less than the going rate in rent of their tenants.
Click to access tyrone.pdf
Don MacFarlane
November 15, 2012 at 8:56 am
Major Landowners in Derry
Samuel Alexander – 5k (Limavady) £4k*
John Beresford – 10k (Derry City) £4k
George Brown – 5k (Claudy) £2k
Sir Henry Bruce – 20k (Downhill) £11.5k http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction_hervey_bruce-2.pdf
Lady Garvagh – 8k (Garvagh) £4k http://lordbelmontinnorthernireland.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/garvagh-house.html
Sir F Heygate – 5.5k (Bellarena) £2.5k
Thomas Richardson – 18k (Coleraine) £8k
James Stevenson – 8.5k (Tobermore) £1k **
There are noticeably fewer private major landowners in County Derry owing to the bigger slices of land being owned by the Worshipful Companies of London, hence the County and City being renamed as Londonderry.
Total:
1380 owners of above one acre. Total acreage 511 thousand acres. Rent £311k.
798 owners of less than one acre. Total acreage 228 acres. Rent £53k.
The Worshipful Companies were:
Drapers Company – 27k acres (Moneymore and Draperstown) £15k
Fishmongers Company – 21k acres (Ballykelly and Banagher) £9k
Grocers Company – 11.5k acres (Faughanvale) £6.5k
Ironmongers Company – 12.5k acres (Aghadowey) £8k
Mercers Company – 21k acres (Kilrea) £12k
Salters Company – 19.5k acres (Magherafelt) £17k **
Skinners Company – 34.5k acres (Dungiven) £10k **
Landowners marked * have charged too much or too little rent when compared to the norm.
From that it appears that the City of London owned almost a third of County Derry.
The situation in Derry was even worse than in the other counties for poorer people. They paid five hundred times as much for their bit of land compared to rich people.
Total
1380 owners of land of more than one acre owned 511k acres and paid £311k in rent.
798 owners of less than one acre owned 228 acres and paid £53k in rent.
Click to access londonderry.pdf
Mary Cornell
November 16, 2012 at 5:17 am
I gauge the approximate size of an acre in one of two ways. Either by the size of an American football field which is approx. 1.5 acres or by the size of a basketball court which is 1/12th of an acre. So American. So I decided I had better look into the acre dimensions used in Ireland since American standard measurements are different from European standard measurements. I am glad I did. Rods and perches?!!
Click to access whatsizeisanacre.pdf
English acre is considered the statute.
Irish acre=1.62 of the statute.
Cunningham acre (used in East Ulster)= 1.3 of the statute.
So how were the rents and taxes computed by England? The larger number for the English acre or the smaller number for the Irish acre? English owners could own much greater acreage in Ireland and pay less tax than land owned in England depending on which was used. The larger landowners seem to be in the Mitt Romney tax bracket.
Don MacFarlane
November 16, 2012 at 8:51 am
The thing I am not clear about, and it appears not to be recorded anywhere, is what was the levy of rent passed down to the tenants who were on less than an acre of land. It was not until 1870 that the Land Act came in to try to protect the rights of tenants and it is said to have failed miserably. Landlords resorted to all sorts of jiggery-pokery to frustrate its proper implementation. The upshot, as far as I can see, is that it took a Land Court to look into what rents were being passed down to tenants who could be evicted for non-payment of even unreasonable rents. The onus then fell upon tenants to foot the cost of a court appearance. They were already living hand-to-mouth so they could not challenge the eviction and if they tried to stay put a posse of local constabulary forced them out. End of story.
Why have I gone off half-cock and started looking at landlords? This is to drill down and to get a grasp of what relationships were like between tenants and landlords, and to equate this with the pressure to emigrate. I can’t figure out yet why, for example, the likes of Lord George Hill (landowner for John Ruddy I think) had by far the lowest valuation of his land. Was this because the land was so poor, hence the tenants upon his land might be the hardest pressed to exist? Also, what kind of landlord was Hill anyway? There are very mixed accounts and I already have found quite a bit of material on him. Once I have figured out George Hill I will look at the other landlords who came from the parts of the country that our waxwings came from and see if I can spot a trend.
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/ireland/gladire.htm
http://eppi.dippam.ac.uk/documents/10336/eppi_pages/228428
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/chapter_one.htm
I mean to contact Dr Martin Dowling who wrote ‘Tenant Right and Agrarian Society in Uster’ to make much better sense of this. He is very knowledgeable on this subject, as well as a champion fiddle-player, and he teaches in Belfast although he is from Wisconsin.
http://www.mu.qub.ac.uk/Staff/AcademicStaff/DrMartinDowling/
Mary Cornell
November 15, 2012 at 6:01 am
I do not think it is even possible for 1170 people to stand on 339 acres!
Saw the saddest thing today while researching. The Irish Wall in Toronto is a memorial to those Irish who died en route or shortly after arriving. At the bottom of the list of over 660 names, it says simply, a child from the wharf……there are no words.
Eileen Breen
November 16, 2012 at 1:58 pm
Obama, Romney and the fat cats in Washington do the same thing. The poor and middle class pay the majority of the taxes at a higher rate than people like Warren Buffet. Buffet even make light of it but you don’t see him giving it back. I know he has some humanitarian interests but the rest of us are still treading water to pay out bills while the rich keep getting richer. In 2011 in the 1% of wealthiest people had 90 % of the wealth in America. The rich go into politics to fund their own interests.
On a TV program on The Society Of Wealth of this country they conducted an experiment where they had played the game Monopoly.The players representing the rich and poor were selected at random. This is reflected that in a society the poor and rich are seen as a random event. Personally, I don’t think that this is a random event. Being in poverty runs in families over many generations. Half the players represented the poor in the US and half were the rich in the US. When the rich players passed “Go” they got the full $200.00. When the poor passed go they received half this amount. The rich also received more assets in the game. as a result they felt empowered and in turn, less sympathetic for the poor players. The property was bought up in the game by the rich players and by the end of the game the rich players won. The poor in most countries live in unsafe neighborhoods, poor diets, more medical issues, they lack opportunities. There are not enough resources to meet the demand. In America our upward mobility is less than other civilized countries. I think this is what president Jackson was driving at: to spread the wealth in this country and land is not just for the rich. When people own their own land they feel empowered, perhaps they participate in government, take an interest in their cities, state and country.
About the measurement of the acre didn’t they also use the measurement of a Hector? Despite what the measurement was, the English government just wanted the Irish out. They were inflicted w/ high rents and the English knew they couldn’t pay so they were evicted. I still find it unbelievable we bailed out the rich bankers. I think Jackson if he were around would have set these guys running with their tails between their legs instead of the pat on the back.
maccarleo
November 12, 2012 at 3:30 am
I was thinking about your query as to why James and Rebecca would return to Donegal. They arrived in Philadelphia at the height of the cholera epidemic, it was the beginning of anti-Irish sentiment and it was a foreign country. Could it be possible that they were simply homesick? Or were not willing to deal with this strange land? This brings us back to the previous idea that either James or Rebecca had the means to return to Donegal within the year. Do you think by any stretch that Seth could have been a nickname for Jo-seph?
Eileen Breen
November 12, 2012 at 6:04 pm
I was thinking a while back we talked about situational factors in Don’s book. Perhaps some cues from this chapter might be noted here. In the website Mary put up with the list of names from the Presbyterian faith that immigrated I noticed many of the male names were church elders. Were they acting as church council or were they emigrating to set up other churches? They seemed to be displaced from their home in Ireland and in America they were seeking to find a new identity in their new home.
In the case of the McClay family they didn’t find a new identity but may have chosen to return to Ireland instead. From an article I saw on Changing Minds.org, why do people behave in certain situations that may explain their relationships within their social circle. A person needs to feel that they belong. If he doesn’t meet this he may feel conflicted and his identity of who he is and how he fits into the group may put his identity at risk. If the McClay’s were elders within the church they may have felt the need to motivate the followers. “Factors that affect situational decisions include motivation and capability of the followers. There is a relationship between follower and leader. The leader perceives the followers’ stress and mood. The leaders position is to acquire resources, manage the demands, structure and culture of the group. The responsibility of the followers is knowing what to do and how to do it by utilizing resources and tools and collaborating within the group towards a goal. Looking at external and situational factors of a group may help to explain the relationships within the group. It would be interesting to find if those on a certain ship ended up in the same community/church or became farmers/landowners who may have had a common bond within a social network such as a church, club or protective group/union.
Don MacFarlane
November 12, 2012 at 7:29 pm
Check out
http://www.indiana.edu/~socpsy/public_files/SYMLOG/BalesTypes.htm
and see which category you think you fit into as part of a group. Me, I think I’m about category P. Incidentally, the grid doesn’t do justice to Bales’s main ideas on the subject.
This doesn’t do justice either but you get the drift:
http://www.symlog.com/internet/tour/symlog_tour_06a.htm
Eileen Breen
November 12, 2012 at 9:00 pm
I think I’m probably in the PF category but I have a few traits? from some of the other categories. I didn’t realize how complicated the role of a leader is and how they interact within a group except when I had to work on a school project or to be a part of a jury where twelve people had to come to a unified decision. That took five days.
I agree with Frank Watson on the Ancestry issue, it has its pros and cons. The Asia tree is up and running bu there were a few names I had trouble with. On the Asia they had more of a variety of occupations than the other three ships: Farmers and weavers were in the majority for men. No woman had an occupation, spinster was always listed for them. For the men occupations included stone cutter: Hunter Ferguson; painter: John Carland; gilder/carver: D. Neilson/Nelson; blacksmith: Andrew Smith; mason: John Watson; brewer: Joseph McAnurecht (sounds German but name is difficult to read); carpenter: Daniel Blackwell; cabinet Maker: David Baird; and tailor: Andrew Bradley (listed with weavers in another family).
Don MacFarlane
November 13, 2012 at 9:06 am
Teaser
To give the character-plot a topical twist:
Here it is again,
http://www.symlog.com/internet/tour/symlog_tour_06a.htm
Was it a Democrat or a Republican that drew this plot?
Which, a Democrat or Republican America, would the Irish emigrants (if these values were as understood and put across today) have found more tolerant and agreeable?
Clue: The founder of the Democrat Party, Andrew Jackson, was American President in 1832. He is best known as being Ulster-Scots, a member of the planter elite as a major landowner, a fierce general and duellist, a practitioner of ethnic cleansing, a wealthy slaveholder, an advocate of small government, a populist, a believer in patronage, and a dismantler of central banking.
I know what I think. Pick your favourite Ulster-Scots American President while you are at it:
http://www.ulsterscotssociety.com/about_the-roots.html
Mary Cornell
November 12, 2012 at 9:29 pm
I agree. James and Rebecca may have found a greater sense of displacement here than in Ireland; so they decided that Ireland was the better, more familiar, evil. It was a known that they could deal with on more even terms. They also must have felt placed lower on the socio-economic scale in America than they had been in Ireland. My question is, what if there isn’t any leader, either from the beginning or no one stepping up to assume the role? If they are unable to establish an identity on their own, do they flounder in America or do they return to Ireland?
The following FFT is completely logical in my head, but I am pretty sure it is not going to come out that way. Here goes–
Are we to believe the ratio and percentages of those emigrating from Ireland, taking into account money as being the major factor for the lack of Irish Catholic emigrants during this time period? That is to say, that the lack of native Irish emigration is due in large part to the lack of money. The majority of passengers on these early 19th century ships would be non-Catholic and if the percentages hold true, then over 130 passengers on the John Stamp would be non-Catholic, whether they were Presbyterian, Church of Ireland or some other. That would leave roughly twenty passengers eligible to be at ‘The Cut’.
According to all the articles we have read on the men at ‘The Cut’, the workers were Irish Catholic. So two conclusions can be drawn. Firstly, those that were Catholic were recruited in Ireland and made up the rest of the passengers on the John Stamp, entirely filling Duffy’s crew. Possible. Or secondly, Catholic workers were also hired from the other three ships. If this is true, did Duffy pay for their passage? I suppose the main question is, would there have been enough Catholic labourers onboard for Duffy to fill a crew solely from the John Stamp unless he had prior recruiting knowledge? Confusing, I know.
Now from that, we can also do a secondary search based on religion. Our first assumption has to be that the ‘Cut’ workers were Irish Catholic. This can be proved or disproved through the search. If we begin eliminating all of the non-Catholics from the list, we should come up with the same work crew that the Watsons did. Right? If we do not, then either the crew was not entirely Catholic or the names are wrong.
Don MacFarlane
November 12, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Correspondence from Frank Watson
“Sounds like you have a good cohort to work with! And yes, Ancestry.com does have its limits. There are some transcription errors in their search protocols and at times in their results pages as well. I have used it successfully to trace some of the folks involved in the Duffy’s Cut story (for example I found information on William Ogden’s life as well as his burial place this way) by cross checking searches and doing multiple searches in different data bases with names and dates…and sometime by using other known family members in the search (this helped in my search for Philip Duffy).
The more information you can plug in to these searches the better, but even then it is not 100%. Another issue is, of course, transcription errors on the US Census pages and other sources themselves (for example, due to census taker error or even intentionally giving false information to the census taker). Successive searches in later census records where the date of immigration is listed can help clarify some of what is lacking in the earlier material, simplified if a person is living in the same location between several censuses and/or has the same family living with them in the various census listings. The same concerns could be put forth for the death information on these web sites (the sections for wills of deceased persons has been as fruitful as anything else in our search for the names of the folks in the railroad file). As you know, none of the web services are as good as eyeballing the original documents or the microfilm reels at county, state, or the national archives. The National Archive branches may be useful for your folks here in America.
I will add, though, that the listings from City Directories can be pretty helpful on the Ancestry.Com site (again, this helped in tracing Philip Duffy and his family). On a personal note, I successfully used Ancestry.com to trace some of our Irish and Scottish ancestors (on the Donley and Watson side), by using a variety of search protocols. So, long story short, Ancestry.com can be guardedly useful, but don’t expect a quick and easy search”.
Eileen Breen
November 12, 2012 at 3:01 am
From an article, Irish Immigration In America:
Between 1820-1920, 4.25 million Irish immigrants came to the US. Ireland’s population density was the highest in Europe. Ireland’s dominant industry was agriculture. In Ireland, one could expect to earn sixpence per day including a meal and eightpence per day without a meal. A peasant’s diet might include potatoes, a small amount of milk and rarely they had fish. The English aristocracy owned the land, controlled the high rents and taxes and the courts. Education was not accessible to those in poverty.
During the years 1816-1818, six to twelve thousand and in 1827 Irish immigrants numbered sixteen thousand. The rate increased to sixty five thousand in 1831. By 1842 over ninety two thousand immigrants reached the US. Contractors whose aim was cheap labor employed three thousand Irish workers for the Erie Canal Project in 1818. In 1826 contractors hired five thousand Irish laborers for four canal projects.
The canals were the first major transportation routes in the US. Many employers sent money to Ireland to pay for the passage of the Irish immigrants who would work as cheap labor building America’s internal improvement projects. Almost all Irishmen had to begin in the US as unskilled laborers and many got no further.
The Irish were encouraged to have at least five dollars in their pocket when they immigrated. Often the money was spent on the voyage and they arrived penniless and destitute. The Irish Immigrant Aid Society in NY encouraged the Irish to stay out of the major urban areas and settle in the west. Newspapers and those sympathetic to the Irish emphasized that the Irish should stay away from canal and railroad construction projects secondary to prejudice of the Irish, poor wages, violence and lack of safety measures and unsafe working conditions. They also encouraged the Irish workers to form a protective association which acted like a trade union. The pick-and-shovel workers on the Chesapeake And Ohio RR earned thirty cents per day with board and lodging and a jigger-full of whiskey.
Irish societies such as the Hibernians and athletic clubs were closely connected to the Catholic Church and the Catholic hierarchy. The railroads encouraged the Irish to migrate to the west. Workers on the canals and railroads settled down as farmers along the routes they helped develop. By 1860, eighty seven thousand Irish inhabited Illinois. Ten years later there would be thirty two thousand more immigrants in Illinois.
The Boston Transcript in 1855 stated: “ten families from Newburyport were bound for Illinois. Each family had between $300-$1500 per family with the intention to buy land. The Wabash And Erie Canal Company offered immigrant laborer farmers 40, 80 and 160 acres in partial payment for work on the canal. The Illinois Central Railroad paid their workers in scrip in exchange for farmland. Between 1833-1853 three-quarters of the Irish employed on public lands in Illinois took up homesteads.
While the railroads and canal companies encouraged migration of the Irish, workplaces and those that sold property in the cities feared that the Irish would take jobs from those already living in the US. They did not want the Irish to buy land or to be hired in their the mills, railroads, canals and businesses. Signs were placed in shop windows “Irish, No Need Apply.” Hiring the Irish worker was considered as a way to justify the means. To have cheap labor at the expense of the Irish laborer who would work in dangerous conditions thus spared their slave labor and labor costs. The Irish laborers were expendable.
There was a lot more in this article but this covered migration routes of the Irish as they migrated to the west. It also discussed some states individually. Further, the article discussed the sentiment and prejudice against the Irish.
Eileen Breen
November 11, 2012 at 3:43 pm
I’m not so convinced James McClay married Rebecca Stewart. I also found a tree in Minnesota of a James McClay. To me it seems more likely someone would emigrate once in US to other states than try to save for several years to go back to the country that caused so much hardship. I know that people did do this but I’m not convinced yet where they ended up. Also a lot of our Presbyterian last names are repeating so it would be easy to make a relationship where it’s not. We need more proof.
Don MacFarlane
November 11, 2012 at 4:26 pm
Albeit the McClays were surrounded on both sides in Donegal by Stewarts (Killymard and Kilbarron parishes), and albeit James McClay boarded the ship alongside Rebecca Stewart and her uncle (?) Seth, I agree that any definitive statement requires definitive proof, otherwise we are just replicating the sloppiness and lazy/wishful thinking of the Watsons. However, for now, the balance of probabilities does seem to point to this couple being who we think they are.
It does, as you say, also pose the intriguing question as to why they left Ireland only to come back so soon. Unusual, to say the least, and worthy of further research. For my part, I will probably put that to one side for now and I will push on with trying to identify more of these people.
Mary Cornell
November 11, 2012 at 7:50 pm
Found this- Hometowns of Ulster Families 1691-1718 (New England Presbyterian Churches)
http://www.lynx2ulster.com/ScotchIrishPioneers/hometowns.php
Londonderry
November 12, 2012 at 10:34 am
Mary, this was a great find and a very interesting site. When I went to the Timeline page and I read all the things happening over the ages, it was apparent to me why these people wanted to get away from the Government church and wealthy/poor dilemmas. Coming to America, while a very very risky venture, it was well worth it. Most Ulster-Scots just wanted freedom along with land and most did not easily sign up to fight in the Revolution. They lived in the mountains (Piedmont) versus the coastlines (Tidewater). There is a lovely Ulster American Folkpark outside of Derry in the country that is very well done. You walk through the woods on a more or less timeline with houses of the era and people doing crafts, cooking and dressed in vintage clothing. Further down the path you see the typical boat that they came in. Initially these were merchant ships which carried produce from America to England and returned to America empty. Someone got the idea to carry people in the stores of the ship and that’s the way many of the early emigrants came, carrying their food, water and necessities. I will try to send pics to you, Mary and Don. Thanks again, great find!!
Eileen Breen
November 12, 2012 at 12:25 am
Rebecca Stewart married in Drumholm Church, Laghy, Donegal:the church is Church Of Ireland. There’s a picture on line.
Don MacFarlane
November 12, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Best Waxwings Extracted from Spreadsheet
The numbers in sequence for each refer to – number of that name from the county of origin listed in the ship’s manifest / the number of that name in Ulster / the percentage of that name in Ulster (out of the total number in Ireland). I suggest we test those names to see if they can be unearthed from census and/or archival data. If they all draw a blank I intend to face down the Watsons to see what magical resource they had access to that is not in the public domain. If there is a measure of success, I intend to fill in the blanks and to locate the probable county of origin for those names listed as of unrecorded origin (mostly from the Asia). Stage Three will then follow, I am keeping my powder dry on that one for now.
Boal 2/45/100 (Ontario)-
Carlin 2/28/95 (Ontario)- Carland
Diamond 3/30/80 (John Stamp)
Doak 6/44/100 (John Stamp)
Kernahan 1/39/99 (Prudence)- Kernaghan
Leitch 3/8/100 (Prudence)- Leech
McAnaneaney 8/9/95 (John Stamp)- multiple
McGhee 11/18/75 (John Stamp)- McGee
McHenry 1/5/99 (Ontario)
McPhelimy 1/27/100 (Prudence)
Patchill 2/13/70 (John Stamp)
Patrick 16/46/60 (Prudence)
Speer 8/31/80 (John Stamp)- Speers, Spier, Spiers
PS Having said that, the quality of transcription is shockingly bad e.g. Adam Diamond has been transcribed as Adron Dumond (what chance!).
Don MacFarlane
November 11, 2012 at 9:26 am
Totally unrelated but picking up on an earlier idea of yours (?), I have created a DuffysCut-specific email account/blog at http://waxwingspa.blogspot.co.uk
There is nothing on it yet but it is there to be used for emails that yourself, Mary or Vic do not want the whole country to see. Once it is better put together, you can make it available to your contacts in Ancestry if you wish. I am hopeless with things like Facebook so any willing volunteer wanting to take that on is most welcome.
Mary Cornell
November 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm
I have not gone MIA the last couple of days. My absence was solely due to the fact of not finding any significant new information to report. Your waxwings seem to be ‘mocking’ birds. Mocking us at least. Vic, glad to see we have a silent partner in our endeavor.
The little I did find – there is a David Peoples in Phila., but the age is not in the area that we have chosen as acceptable, a five year difference. But… this is actually the only Peoples that I have been able to find at all. This Peoples is quite a guy. His wife is nearly forty years younger and there are young children in the household. And there were several other names found in Ohio, but no way to connect to our passenger lists, as yet.
One thing I did notice from my search is that there are several family trees, with southern state locations, who have an Aiken/Eakin – McQuigg connection through marriage. I have been searching in Northern Ireland to see if there was a like connection taking place there. Vic’s post does help to clarify why the Irish immigrants were settling in the South in the same numbers as they were in the North.
BTW- I have been using the Irish Times people/place search from the beginning. I assumed because Don had not mentioned it, it was not a source he found reliable. Assumptions……..
BTW, the sequel – I was looking at the names on the Muster Rolls and since there is a large percentage of ‘our’ names listed, was their service required by the government or was it voluntary?
Mary Cornell
November 11, 2012 at 4:14 am
I was thinking about James McClay and Rebecca Stewart, the two who returned to Donegal. They must have been fairly well off because it looks like the entire family survived the Famine. The mortality rate was much less for those of means. Also, something that Vic mentioned about how much it cost to come to America. The Leitches and Aikens would surely be fairly wealthy farmers for the entire family to emigrate at one time, especially the Aikens. Money does leave a trail.
Don MacFarlane
November 11, 2012 at 7:41 am
And here is a picture of James McClay’s and Rebecca Stewart’s middle son, John Stewart McClay
http://www.sadelson.com/Family/jsm.htm
You’re right, money does leave a trail!
Eileen Breen
November 11, 2012 at 11:36 pm
Mary, I’m glad your not MIA. Great articles on the financial situation of the Presbyterians. I wonder if Rebecca Stewart and James McClay went back to Ireland for a death of a family member. I read by the 1840s people were migrating to the west with lightening speed by horse and wagon as the locomotive tycoons were also expanding the railroad lines from the east coast to California. They were also dealing with Indian attacks, cholera, starvation, other diseases and death. For every eighty miles along the trail to the west a person died. In 1843 it cost between $800-$1500 to provide provisions for an entire family to head out west.
I found today in an antique shop First Day Of Issue stamps and information about the formation of the railroad in the 1830s. They started from the Canal Boats that transported people and goods up the Erie Canal. They connected the Canal to the Atlantic Ocean and that was a major transportation route to the Port Of New York City. This may have been how the laborers received the supplies for the railroad. There are a set of five drawings and information about the early railroads and how they helped America expand to the west coast. I don’t know if they would be of any interest. I can scan them if interested.
maccarleo
November 12, 2012 at 2:22 am
I have been thinking about your query as to why James and Rebecca would return to Ireland less than a year from arriving. They arrived during a cholera epidemic, the anti-Irish sentiment was beginning and it was a foreign land. Could they have simply been homesick? Or unwilling to deal with the new country? This is where the idea that either James or Rebecca had means to return to Donegal. Don, through any stretch, could the name Seth be a nickname for Jo-seph?
Vic Barnett
November 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm
Eileen, Mary, Don, I have been reading your blogs, especially on your research on Duffy’s Cut for I think months. I am Vic Barnett (Dayton OH) and a silent blogmaster with Don. He talked me into doing it on the Derry site several years ago. Frankly, Don has such a grasp and interest in the subject that I have found it best to remain silent, yet read the blog daily (I feel like a voyeur).
Derry is where my 6G grandfather sailed with his family and his brother’s family in 1729, landing in Dover and settling east of Harrisburg. While I have no knowledge of Duffy’s Cut I have done a fair amount of research into the lowland Scots, Ulster Scots and their immigration patterns to America. Frankly I would call myself an amateur genealogy-historian. I wrote a chapter in The Sea is Wide on my great grandfather John Barnett. The chapter is called John 1678 (his year of birth). I am sure that the patterns changed a bit over the years in the 1700s and 1800s but this is what I think is true.
The biggest group came in the 1720-1777 time frame. They had come to Ulster from the lowlands of Scotland after James VI (James I of Scotland) essentially robbed the land from the Irish Catholics mostly in the 1600s. My family were wool manufacturers which I presume means they were weavers. I don’t think they were poor but they were not rich. Why? Because they came by boat with their families and the price of the voyage was a year’s salary (one pound) in 1729. Since they brought their families that would have been eight years of savings, then they bought a farm near Tinglestown PA.
I believe they did not come for religious persecution reasons primarily but came for land and the irritations that came from being a part of England. The town is Londonderry because the London merchants invested in the town. But when the merchants started dictating what they had to grow, as one example, it dropped the Londonderry and it is now usually called Derry. Why PA? Well, the Franklin Quakers wanted some buffer zone with the Indians living in the western mountains of the colonies. Why Dover? I think they were pretty much aligned with their church families and the Presbyterian preachers landed in primarily three locations: Boston, Dover and Charleston.
The main fabric of our US Constitution is patterned on the Presbyterian Church polity (I am an elder in the church.) There were nineteen Presbyterians in the Continental Congress. BTW, most of the soldiers in the Revolution were Scotch-Irish. Don showed my wife and I a great mural of George Washington recognizing the SI late one night after dinner in Derry. BTW Don is remarkable. Anyway, I have lots of info including pictures from our trip that I would be happy to share if there is interest. Nuf said for now as Snuffy Smith would say.
Don MacFarlane
November 10, 2012 at 10:42 pm
Hi Vic
Good to hear from you, I hope you are both keeping well. I had been thinking about you a lot, especially recently as Ohio has been in the news a lot with the Obama re-election. I am glad you have found this new Duffy’s Cut has piqued your interest. I find the story, and the parallel stories that will probably emerge from it, to be a microcosm of ‘the times that was in it’ for Irish in the early 1800s, in Ireland and the US.
Our book is still awaiting publication but it is looking positive. During the hiatus, I thought to include three additional chapters to round it off – ‘Son of Duffy’s Cut’, one on Tasmanian Convict Maids by Liz Rushen and one on the ‘Hairy Man’ episode in Newfoundland. That will take into the Spring of next year before ‘The Sea is Wide’ is the finished article.
Please feel free to chip in with more posts meantime and any photos you have can go into the Gallery Section – I can see to that if you email them to me in GIF or JPEG format.
Don MacFarlane
November 10, 2012 at 12:14 am
Read More About the Ulster Plantation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/plantation/planters/index.shtml
Presbyterians fled persecution in Scotland in the 1600s that was perpetrated upon them by agents of the Established Church, the Church of England. At that time they were known as Covenanters as they refused to sign the Covenant that pledged them to acknowledge the monarch as the head of the church. Their objection was that no living human person could ever be the head of the church as that honour belonged solely to Jesus Christ and that is their position even to this day. The Establishment tolerated their presence as they played an important part in the Plantation, notably during the Siege of Derry. The part they played was not acknowledged or rewarded, basically they were treated not much better than Catholics, and that was when they started to drift away and emigrate to North America.
That of course is just a very potted version.
Eileen Breen
November 10, 2012 at 2:08 pm
So do you think the twelve English companies that financed the Plantation also financed the Presbyterians to Pennsylvania because they were seen as discontented with the Church Of England’s interference in Northern Ireland? I know you don’t want to put religion into this book but it’s just for my understanding why they came to US. I think as Vic said many also wanted land.
Vic, did your family who were weavers in NI become farmers in US or did they keep their occupation as weavers? The articles were interesting. I tried to plug in a few names into the Irish Times site and I’ll have to play with this some more. The names of those that were Planted in NI- is this anything we would want to put on the spreadsheet as FFT?
Eileen Breen
November 10, 2012 at 2:21 pm
FFT: Would it be interesting to put a name on “our list” where they may have come from and the English Finance company that may have been responsible for planting that name in NI or if we could find out if they shipped them off to Pennsylvania later? Also as Vic said the English were trying to dictate what they could grow in NI, primarily the flax that was used in the linen industry. The English wanted the linen industry all to themselves so they prevented the Irish from growing it and grew it in England instead.
Don MacFarlane
November 10, 2012 at 4:38 pm
Muster Rolls
These list the names of the Planters by County whose job it was to fight off any rebellious native Irish:
http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-Muster_Rolls_Donegal_1631.html
Of our list of names, those who would have come from Planter stock include:
Lecky
Woods
Buchanan
Cochrane
McKenny
McConnell
Crawford
Richey
Allison
Ballantine
Craig
Hunter
Ewing
Barber
Montgomery
Speer
Davis
Nelson
Griffin
Russell
Keys
McNutt
Leitch
Peoples
Stevenson
Harold
Reid
Greer
Creighton
Shaw
Elliott
McIlwaine
Caldwell
Wylie
Sproule
Henderson
Snodgrass
Nicholl
McGee
Elder
In other words, these names comprise at least a third of the larger list extracted for the Excel spreadsheet from the ships’ manifests and belonged to folks whose job it was to Plant and displace the native Irish.
Eileen Breen
November 11, 2012 at 2:03 am
It sounds like the Church Of England wanted to use the English first to edge out the Irish. Then when there weren’t enough people to do the job they got reinforcements with the Scottish Presbyterians. They then edged out the Presbyterians by placing restrictions on their religion and what they could grow to control them economically as well. Then the Presbyterians moved to PA and became landowners. Once their financial prospects improved they furthered their education.
I was thinking that the Scottish had less ties to the land in Ireland so they were the first wave of immigration. The Irish Catholics had more to lose since the Church of England had confiscated the clans’ lands in the 1700s. So they stayed in Ireland until the last king Of Ireland was killed in 1830 by the Church Of England. The Scottish Presbyterians also had ties to land but in America.
So here’s a question: For Celts, which was more important: If they were on the land from the cradle to the grave or if they were planted then immigrated as long as they owned the land their family was on? Are both groups considered Celts? The two groups could be put through the identity grid?
Don MacFarlane
November 11, 2012 at 7:24 am
What you describe there is essentially the difference between Primordialist (native Irish) and Situationalist (Presbyterian) Celts. That is to say if it were that black-and-white; it is probably more shades of grey. As Mary pointed out, once the Presbyterians landed in PA and elsewhere they, more often than not, called their new locations by the same mames as those which they left in Ireland, not earlier ones in Scotland. I would guess that for most of them it was heart-wrenching.
Don MacFarlane
November 12, 2012 at 12:53 am
All classes of people, irrepective of religion, felt the pinch of having to pay tithes to the Church of Ireland. Much of this was paid as goods in kind, rather than currency, and the tax was levied at some crops more than others. The upshot, as discussed earlier in relation to Cork and Bishop Whately, was insurgency and murder whenever tithes were due to be collected. The tithe applotment books would give a definite idea as to how wealth was distributed – who owned more land hence had to pay more tax, but generally CofI were better off than Dissenters (Presbyterians) who were better off than Catholics. I’ll try to hunt down more detail on this query as it could be very relevant.
Vic Barnett
November 12, 2012 at 3:30 pm
I believe that the Barnett’s originated in lowland Scotland and worked as weavers (family lore is wool manufacturer but I think that is gratuitous). When James I of Scotland/James VI of England, King James Bible fame BTW, gave the Ulster land to officers for the Plantation, my theory is that they brought many cottage industries with them, one of which were the woollen merchants and weavers. As we all know, however, Ulster had many limitations for most of the people, so they really valued moving on and finding a place in America to own land. As members of the middle social strata, they came to PA and bought land to farm. From there they moved as farmers from PA to VA, to KY and to many other states from there. My theory is that the “caldron” in Scotland and Ulster formed their basic beliefs in freedom, distrust of any power, the value of education and emphasis on family. Some other interesting readings which might help the Duffy’s Cut venture are “Albion’s Seed” by Fischer, “The Scotch Irish” by Leyburn, “The Tribes of Britain” by Miles and Egle’s “Notes and Queries” (from PA). You guys are doing great! I’m learning a lot!
Mary Cornell
November 11, 2012 at 7:59 am
Researching the income level of the emigrants, I came across this from the ‘Ulster Journal of Archaeology’, a multi-volume journal dealing with all aspects of Ulster. Each book is in a basic, but haphazard, time order.
In Vol. 2, I found a chapter titled, ‘Ulster Settlers in America’. It discusses the Ulster Scots from early 1800 through the American Revolution to the War of !812. Several sources, including this one, agree that the 18th Century emigrant was fairly wealthy and the great majority seem to have been Presbyterian. The Presbyterian Church kept detailed records on their church members including the towns which they left to come to America. The Presbyterian Church in New England has records concerning the church members from Ulster during the 1600s. It might be useful to try and track down these records.
http://archive.org/details/ulsterjournalofa02ulstiala
Don MacFarlane
November 9, 2012 at 11:45 pm
When you search for a name on
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&UserID=
it tells you at the bottom of each page the origin of the name in each case, whether native or transplanted. Also, it gives for each name the usual variations in spelling, although this obviously does not take account of a spelling that a ship’s bursar might make up on the spot. These variations might account for a certain proportion of the Ancestry searches that draw a blank.
Eileen Breen
November 9, 2012 at 2:11 pm
FFT: If we get a person(s) we want to talk about, say for an article or book, should we also talk about the origins of their name and where they most likely would have come from, based on their name and position, as well as what they stated on the manifest that was their last residence. Also we could include their occupation.
It seems that the occupation and their place of residence sometimes causes a conflict as in the case of the McClay family who were weavers early on but in US they were farmers. Maybe they had to move for a job? I also wanted to take a look at Rosanne Diamond and the Forsythe/Akin family and what their occupations were of their family members. There was an article a year ago in Ancestry magazine that spoke of how there were recruiters that helped people get jobs in the steel industry in the Midwest. The Ancestry magazine older articles are on-line for free.
Don MacFarlane
November 9, 2012 at 3:58 pm
I think you must have read my mind here! The Excel spreadsheet should go a long away in casting light on what you said in your first paragraph. What jumps out at me is how few of the waxwing names that comprise the spreadsheet (chosen at random, I may add, not on the basis of their assumed religion) found their way out of Ulster to go to different parts of Ireland but they travelled en-masse to the US. What was that all about? I will be analysing that in detail, and a lot more.
Don MacFarlane
November 10, 2012 at 9:31 am
I am about half way down the columns in the spreadsheet that tell where the surnames are from. The first row of figures gives the numbers of households around 1847, up till the mid 1850s, that were recorded in the same Ulster counties mentioned in the ship’s manifests. Hence, for example, John Creighton from Donegal, who was a labourer on the John Stamp, left two households (probably but not for certain related) behind him. There were 110 households of that name in Ulster at the time, being 90% of the entire Creighton households in Ireland at that time, but only two of those being in Donegal.
Based upon those figures, one can then devise a search strategy specific to John Creighton, which likely would not be the same as for other subjects being searched for. The 1901 census shows that there were two families called Creighton still in Donegal at the turn of the century.
Those in Killybegs were two orphaned teenage children living in a Poorhouse, and those in Ballyshannon were an unmarried brother and sister but still young enough to be eligible, epecially the sister who was 21. However, in 1911, the only Creightons left in Donegal were middle-aged, two brothers and one sister, living together in Mount Charles. There was no trace in the 1911 census of the Ballyshannon siblings, presumably emigrated, although the sister being 21 may have got married in the meantime and accquired a different name. A marriage certificate might turn that up.
Likewise, with the orphan siblings, there was no trace of them either ten years later. Shipping Lists might show up the younger Creightons but they were no longer in Ireland. Reading between the lines, the Creightons hit upon hard times, from a situation in the case of the Ballyshannon Creightons where two youngish Church of Ireland siblings were able to hire a Catholic housemaid to disappearing off the map ten years later; and in the case of the Killybegs Creightons (probably not from there as that was where the Poorhouse was) to also disappearing off the map ten years later.
The sum total of that says there is perhaps a point, but probably not, of looking up relatives of John Creighton in the US. Mainly because Creightons were common enough but in other parts of Ulster and therefore not waxwings.
Eileen Breen
November 9, 2012 at 3:35 am
June 1865, twenty one ‘immigrant girls’ from Ireland worked in a munitions factory building bombs to be used by the Union Army. Each ‘girl’ had 150 bombs laid before her. The bombs were put out in the sun to dry. A spark set off all the bombs and the twenty one ‘girls’ were killed instantly at their desks. A memorial was put up in Olivet Cemetery and Arlington National Cemetery in Washington, D.C. The Army paid for the burial and all were buried in a mass grave due to the condition of the deceased from the blast. the Hibernian Society was instrumental in building the memorial. This story is in more detail on their website and there is a list of the women on the memorial.
Eileen Breen
November 9, 2012 at 3:15 am
FFT: Philadelphia in the 1820s was the first city to have a union that didn’t discriminate by class of worker, all classes were included. The Orange Order was in all major cities in US and In Ontario, Canada. Maybe this is why we saw one family move from Philadelphia to Ohio then to Ontario. The article said it wasn’t the poor that belonged to the Orange Order because you had to pay dues. The Hibernians and Sons of St Patrick in Philadelphia helped the poorer immigrants. The benevolent groups were the Masons, Odd Fellow, Knights Of Pythias and Knights of Columbus. There might be membership lists?
Eileen Breen
November 9, 2012 at 2:26 am
FFT: I read that in Philadelphia in the 1830s the Orange order gave Ulster Protestants support, helped them find jobs and gave them money to start up in Philadelphia. In 1777, five ships containing 480 families of Ulster Protestants sailed into Philadelphia. The article stated the Orange Order may have records. It would be interesting if we could find out what or who started the mass exodus of the Protestants to Philadelphia. Also a brief history of what was happening in Phili might apply to this story.
Eileen Breen
November 9, 2012 at 1:29 am
FFT: Two woman so far that have occupations, one on Asia and I forgot where the other one was but I’ll try to find it. Also we had a gentleman on two different ships. The Asia also has a two shoemakers. and Ontario too. The J.S. has the majority of the laborers. Ontario has one laborer. The Ontario and Asia have the majority of farmers and weavers. I wonder if there were waves of what skills were needed at the time and who was advertising. I haven’t seen any laborers so far on the Asia – still on page 1.
Eileen Breen
November 8, 2012 at 1:33 pm
I just heard from two members of the Letitia Risk family. Unfortunately they don’t know anything about her but they think the daughter was born in US, then they moved to Canada. They didn’t know the family moved to Ohio or how or why they immigrated to Philadelphia.
I also saw on the Ship Asia there was a James Wilson and right above his name was the Henderson Family. James Wilson married a Henderson but not the Margaret Henderson on the ship. His war pension states he was in Phili two weeks before the John Stamp.
Eileen Breen
November 8, 2012 at 12:41 am
Letitia Risk:
I found a Letitia Risk who married a Daniel Corcoran and both were from Ireland. They moved to Ohio, then to Ontario, Canada. When you look at a map it does make sense. Ontario is right above Ohio on the North West border above Lake Erie. There is no info on these two but there is information on a daughter who had children and one son who was married.
I wrote to two people who had a lot of Canadian census records for Ontario, Canada. There is also a marriage certificate for Cuyahuga County, Ohio. In Canada they lived in Caradoc, Middlesex County, Ontario. The daughter’s son married a Methodist woman, Fanny Veil, who was a farmer’s daughter. Two people I wrote to are adnils and steve_miller on ancestry and I asked them if the family came through Philadelphia. Their trees say Risk was born in the USA but their marriage certificate says Ireland.
Eileen Breen
November 7, 2012 at 11:18 pm
John Brisland b. 1822 from Prudence.
In Ireland there is a will for a Margaret Brisland family from Campsie in Derry. That is the only entry for Derry. In Philadelphia, there was a John Brisland who was seven years older coming up on census lists. I sent you a John Brisland on a ship 1859 from England, Ship: NY Packet. I haven’t seen his siblings listed with him. He would have been ten years old in 1832 and his siblings are younger. I also saw Brislands that were older living in Donegal.
Don MacFarlane
November 8, 2012 at 9:10 am
The first sheet of the DuffyTemp Excel spreadsheet is now complete as a template that can be used for any further research. All the names have been graded 0-4 for likelihood of success in finding them based upon their surnames. The grading is for most of the names probably stricter than it needs to be as it is based on whole-Ulster prevalence of these names and that does not take account that many of these names have their county of origin clearly indicated on the ships’ manifests. It also does not take account of the owner of a surname having a distinctive forename, nor does it take account of possible transcription errors.
Nor does it take account of clusters of names. Therefore the grading is not set in stone. For example the following names have been graded 4 because they are numerous but there is a good likelihood they are all related, at least at second or third cousin level – Arthur, Griffin, Meaney, McAleer, McHugh, McNutt, McQuillen, McShane, Sproule. We have one such example already in the Aiken family who scattered across the North East of the US. The paper I posted on migration patterns of Ulster Presbyterians in the US makes the same point in more detail.
What that seems to point to for me is not to be too discouraged if for example lots of McNutts pop up in the US in the 1830s, scattered between PA, OH and NY. That is to be expected but I would not deviate beyond a year on either side of the birthdate of the index person. But if the McNutts did not have in their midst one person whose birthyear is within a year of what it says on the manifest and who has Ireland as his place of origin, that search is not worth persevering with. A simple way of conducting a search would be an algorithm, so that in the case of the above example,’Do not pass Go’.
Don MacFarlane
November 8, 2012 at 1:28 pm
My own gut feeling is that it will take the family input to personalise whatever story can be pulled together. In terms of the period to be covered, I was thinking a maximum of three generations, to cover reasons for leaving Ireland and the period of settlement in the US. I would also like to ‘nail’ the sweeping assumptions that are made by the likes of the Watsons, plus give an account of the obstacles, wrong turnings and blind alleys encountered by any twenty-first century genealist or family researcher. I think of it as a kind of a detective story, with lots of hunches, new learning and flashes of intelligence to illuminate the groping in the dark.
Eileen Breen
November 6, 2012 at 7:31 pm
I just received a letter from bisontrainer9 on Ancestry: Aiken family of PA. They were farmers.
The family history taken from ‘The History Of Some Aiken / Eakin Families’ tells that they were from Scotland originally. They left Scotland during the reign of Bloody Mary and settled in Northern Ireland in Antrim, Derry and Down. William Aiken wrote in a letter in 1906 “not being land owners, the New World began to attract them”. The first member of the family to come to America was James, a son of a Joseph Aiken, who in 1829 emigrated to Philadelphia. James Aiken married Hannah Forsythe, moved with their children to Beaver County, PA and in 1833 they moved to Logan City, Ohio to be near communicants of the Covenanter Church (a Scottish Presbyterian Church). Twenty one members of this family travelled by covered wagon and bought three tracts of land.
The names seem to line up with the names on the Ontario: James, William, David, Margaret (Peggy), Mary Ann, Jane, Nancy and Joseph. Margaret married George McAfee and Jane married Robert Brown who bought one tract of land. James and Hannah bought one tract of land in Logan, Ohio. Joseph, his wife and two children bought a tract of land in Logan, OH. Mary m. John Keys, Nancy m. David Mitchell, Ann m George Clark. David who is her direct relation left Ohio, traveled to Indiana and died in Nebraska.
Don MacFarlane
November 6, 2012 at 8:41 pm
What I take out of all of that is that the Aiken/Forsyth dynasty had no connections with Donegal and the Ballyhall is definitely not Ballyhallion?
My guess is that both families came from an area in County Down, no longer called Ballyhall but I have no clue what it later came to be called as I can find no trace other than a reference to a James Andrew Strain from Ballyhall in County Down who fought in the Great War (World War I). I would say the Aikens and Forsyths came from an area called the Quoile as both family names are to be found there. It begs the question, of course, that with a very large linen mill in the same county, in Castlewellan, and with the Aikens being weavers, why emigrate to Philadelphia at all? It wasn’t for religious reasons either as there was a very strong tradition of Presbyterianism in the same county.
Otherwise, it all points to it being generally known in the Province that you had to get either to Liverpool or Derry if you wanted to emigrate to Philadelphia. All bets are off then as regards guessing where folks were from unless it is clearly identified in the ship’s manifest. Nonetheless, it remains the case that most of the emigrants were from the North West of the Province.
Don MacFarlane
November 6, 2012 at 9:43 pm
Prime Candidates for Search in Donegal
The following are waxwings in Donegal, on the basis of their total numbers and their locations so more likely to produce results:
Boal
Creighton
Diven
Lecky
Kernahan
McCahill
McClay
McDonagh
McGhee
Patchill
I will confine my own search to these Donegal names for now and any additional hands to the deck are most welcome. Once these have been exhausted, Tyrone can be next.
Don MacFarlane
November 7, 2012 at 8:43 pm
Short Shortlist
The names that are least common and stand the best chance of no duplication in Ancestry should be –
Blackwell
Brisland
Childs
Culbertson (John Stamp – labourer)
Dermott – may be transcription error
Gilfillen – labourer
Livingstone
Leitch – labourer
McAnaney – may be transcription error
McGettigan – John Stamp
McQuigg – though this may be a transcription error for McClurg.
Risk
Sherwood
Snodgrass
Stringer
Of course, few of those are said to be Duffy’s Cut crew or labourers but they serve as a baseline.
Don MacFarlane
November 8, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Surname Map of Ireland
Here is a useful and interesting resource that I have rediscovered, having forgotten about it. Enter Surname section to find where surnames concentrated and the different spellings. I have made a start at transferring this data to the spreadsheet but I have other stuff to do and I will come back to it later. Tomorrow morning it should be ready.
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&UserID=
Eileen Breen
November 6, 2012 at 11:23 pm
When I typed in Ballyhall on Ancestry the name Ballyhallan, Donegal came up on Ancestry. Aikens were farmers in US. The John Stamp names I came up w/ a few choices for each but nothing that jumped out at me. I didn’t find anything useful under family trees or census’ for the names Ruddy to William Diven on the list you put up the other day. A lot of the names had the same name for multiple cities for the same birth year and multiple wards in Philadelphia. In a Gettysburg newspaper Republican Complier 11/18/1832 had a William Diven listed as a Delegate to The Republican Convention. Names looked up not successful (also many choices): Ruddy, Patchill, Skelton, Quigley, Cully, Long, McKinney, Mahon, Hunter, Hastings, Cully, McGourley, Elliot, McGlone, Ewing, Craig, McIlheaney/ McAneaney, McConnell, Diven. Weavers: Doak, Diamond, Rice, Ewing. Others: McGhee, A. Doak, McGonigle, Risk, biddy McIlheany, Found R. Diamond. Saw a Catherine Allison married to a John Doak living in Canada, not sure its correct.
I wonder if the size of the ports dictated what type of ship could sail from each port such as barque Vs another type of ship. I’ll try to find the history of Akin family. Can we attach the McClay history to John McClay in Ancestry?
Eileen Breen
November 7, 2012 at 12:44 am
Last word on the Akins: Roots Web has a fifty-member Akin family tree that seems to be connected to the tree that was found on ancestry. I think this is where the woman who wrote got the part about traveling to Ohio in a covered wagon. I tried to find the ‘History Of Some of the Akins Family,,published in 1929, but it is probably only available in libraries. Six were listed but I don’t think we can access it on line. There is a second book ‘A Kin Of Adam’ by David Eakin. The name Adam is a nick name for Akin. I think we need to move on in this topic!
Don MacFarlane
November 7, 2012 at 7:38 am
Question. All of these names, and thanks for this effort, are uncommon in Ireland, being for the most past Ulster-Scots and confined to Ulster. As you say, and nonetheless, too many possibles are shown in the Ancestry search but was origin in Ireland set as an essential criterion? Unless I am going about it wrongly, I seem to find that when I do an Ancestry.search it ignores that filter and lots of possible names are thrown up that disregard the filter. Which of course makes the whole exercise meaningless.
If the filter is working, which I say it is not (?), then that suggests all of the results thrown up by Ancestry are valid and reflect a chain of migration. So they should all be recorded (shock/horror), regardless of number, and put on the tree. Or, failing that, as the task is too large, a representative or even random sample could be put on the tree. Footnotes could refer to the ones that are not put on the tree?
To take stock of where things are at, I have done a little bit of statistical wizardry (!) – not actually, it’s kitchen sink stuff. I have made a table of the likelihood of negative, contradictory or confusing results per surname, sticking to the surnames that we have concentrated on. That takes in the list that Eileen has worked on (as shown in her last post) plus the ones that I put up in my last post as the ones that I would focus on. I have highlighted those in bold on the Excel table, put in an adjacent column for Variability, so ignore the rest for now till we see where we are at. A score of 0 means no trace of the name in Ulster for starters; 1 means a waxwing; thereafter lower score means better chance of success and 4 means a needle in a haystack.
We need to know meantime about the Ancestry filter. Is it a joke or does it actually work? If at the end of it all, we have a result that shows all or most of the surnames said by the Watsons to have been buried at the Cut are all showing up in Ancestry, or more likely that names whether allegedly from the Cut or not cannot usually be retrieved, it’s OK Corral time?
Eileen Breen
November 7, 2012 at 1:25 pm
When I did my family tree I used the filter for the US part of the tree and I found the correct relatives although other people with the last name I was looking at also came up. Fortunately I knew the place name, street name and correct spelling of the last name in the US. The other parts of the tree I had more difficulty with since I didn’t have a first hand account of where the family lived in Ireland.
It wasn’t until a distant cousin and I had the same photo with a slightly different pose that I found the family in Ireland with his help. It is also difficult when the name is a common name. This is why I like to look at family trees. I can see the photos they put up. A lot of people put up gravestone photos. Also I can write to the people who put up the tree. I’m often wary when people copy someone’s tree. Names don’t mean much if you can’t place them in context with a family.
I think the filter can be helpful yet unhelpful at the same time. I agree that using the filter for place name will be less useful if we can’t correctly spell the place and person’s name. The Irish records I find difficult because they don’t put a street address and you can’t see the street or home in relation to others on the street. It would be helpful to find a map of Ireland from 1830s. What about the Ordinance Book of Derry or the north west communities where these passengers may have come from? We need the old names of places. The census in Ireland probably won’t help as the date 1832 is early for record keeping. Few records exist before 186. I think without the personal histories we’re going to have to depend on Ancestry family trees on-line and histories that are on-line.
On Ancestry they have tools to help you figure out a tree on paper before you put it up on line. You can you it to figure if the tree is legitimate. You can download the forms from their learning center and print it.
Don MacFarlane
November 6, 2012 at 10:45 pm
McClay Family Tree
I think I struck gold with this one:
Click to access 095_Decendants%20of%20John%20McClay.pdf
Mary Cornell
November 7, 2012 at 6:22 am
It looks like James McClay and Rebecca Stewart, who were on the Ontario together, returned to Donegal within the year and never returned. It doesn’t look like any of their eight children went to America either. Nice work, Don There is an exhilarating feeling when you actually find something concrete. I wish some of these other names were as easy to locate. I did find an Isabella Leamon in the 1870 Census Phila. Her age is off by 3 years, but the rarity of her name makes me think that this is the right person. What is a little disconcerting is that this is the only place I could find her. Misspellings of the surname? Who knows?
I found Ballyhall in Kilkenny, but that seems a little far for a family as large as the Aikens to be traveling.
We might be operating on another false assumption, the assumption that the families or friends of the men were not informed or did not learn of of their deaths. The secret was not that the men had died. The secret was the manner in which they died. It is possible that the families could have been told that the men died from cholera or word could have reached them through the grapevine. There were other Irish working on different sections of the line who would have noticed the men missing. The RR would have had to put out some explanation, the most likely one being cholera had killed the men. It would explain why there doesn’t seem to be many inquiries into the missing men.
Correction- A Scottish editor…..that adds a much darker portrait to the chapter, don’t you think?
Don MacFarlane
November 7, 2012 at 1:01 pm
The Ballyhall Conundrum
Those from ‘Ballyhall’ were:
Aiken
McQuigg
Reid
McKeown
Johnston
The most distinctive of these names is McQuigg which was only to be found in Aghadowey in County Derry or Dunluce in North Antrim. Looking at those parishes, Aikens are the odd ones out being in neither Parish but all the other names appear in both Parishes. There were folk by the name of Akin lived in Balteagh Parish next door to Aghadowey which is maybe then the best fit. These two places are at opposite ends of the Ringsend Road as it skirts round Cam Forest. Similarly, all the names bar McQuigg are to be found in Balteagh.
http://ireland.kiwicelts.com/irishMap/ireMap.html
Don MacFarlane
November 7, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Waxwings Flew in Philadelphia
Friendly voices, dead and gone,
Singing Star of the County Down
Even the ghosts help raise the barn
There now in my hometown
When out of the massing that bodes in the cold west
Flew a waxwing who froze and died against my breast
And all the while, rain like a weed in the tide,
Swans and lists down on the gossiping lawns
Saying “tsk tsk tsk”
I may have changed, it’s hard to gauge
Time won’t account for how I’ve aged
Would I could tie your lying tongue
Who says that leaving keeps you young
To cast myself out over the water
Riven like a wishbone
Not naturally given to roam
I will lay low when I return
And move like a gurney
Whose wheels are squeaking
I laugh when you speak of my pleasure-seeking
Among the tall pines, along the lay-lines
Here where the loon keens
Here where the moon leans
Here where I know my violent love lays
Down in a row of silent, dove-gray days
But time marches on.
Don MacFarlane
November 6, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Maybe a couple of steps back here? How certain is it that the Aikens are from Ballyhallion? I can see that they could be connected with the Forsythes but both families are unlikely to have come from round that neck of the woods – much more likely that they came from the adjoining parishes on the other side of Lough Swilly, from Aughnish/Killygarvan (Aikens)and Leck (Forsythes). Both places are on the main road from Rathmelton to Letterkenny within ten miles of each other. Ballyhallion is at the back of beyond in Inishowen, pretty inaccessible even today, though I passed nearby on my bikerun.
Eileen Breen
November 6, 2012 at 6:58 pm
I need to find out if the Aikens on the Ancestry tree were from Ballyhallan in Donegal. They had Antrim as their place of birth. They had photos of each family member’s gravestone with the correct name for each of the ten children. Some of the dates of birth were off a few years, some were the same. I wrote to two people but I haven’t heard yet. It seems like a few people have copied this tree so I’m not sure if they are related. Ballyhallan, from the ships manifest, looked like Ballyhall. Perhaps the top person in the tree came from Antrim. I don’t think the family had documents to prove the location of birth. I’m hoping to find out otherwise!
FFT: On women Immigrating, from an article on line:
Daughters were low in the hierarchy in the family so they had little hesitation in immigrating and the family saved money for her passage. In Ireland in the 1830s there were little economic or social opportunities for woman and immigration was considered in Ireland to be a ‘Journey With Optimism’. They could achieve status in America that they couldn’t at home. In Ireland there was a ‘female exodus’ to America in the mid-nineteenth century. The Irish immigrants during this time comprised 50% woman. Single Irish women were called “unprovided-for girls’ because marriage opportunities for women were on the decline in Ireland.
In America in the first half of the nineteenth century women were domestics, nurses, teachers and nuns even though the Catholic Church preached that women should be in the home and bear children. Many woman put off having children although many couples had as many children as possible despite the economic pressures. Irish men were discriminated against in the workplace and they often abandoned their spouses and children. This led to domestic violence and alcohol abuse in the home. Woman handled the finances in the family and they often bore the brunt of the family’s responsibilities for child rearing and financial obligations. The Irish were the poorest of the immigrant groups in America in the nineteenth century. Often these families lived in the slums and tenements in the cities like NYC, Boston, Chicago and Philadelphia.
On another subject: Irish in the South:
‘Native tolerance was also very important factor in Irish integration into Southern society… Upper class southerners did not object to the Irish because Irish immigration never threatened to overwhelm their cities or states… The Irish were willing to take on potentially high-mortality occupations, thus sparing valuable slave property. Some employers objected not only to the cost of Irish labor but also to the rowdiness of their foreign-born employees. Nevertheless, they recognized the importance of the Irish worker to the production of slavery… the Catholicism practiced by the Irish immigrants was of little concern to the southern natives’. David Gleeson – ‘The Irish In The South 1815 – 1877’.
Suggested Titles for the book: ‘A Journey With Optimism’, ‘Passport Philadelphia’. ‘A Diamond Crossroad’. The Diamond was a town square in Ireland and when the Irish came to Philadelphia they built a diamond in the center of the town in memory of the Diamond in Derry, Ireland. 1832: ‘Pursuit Of Happiness’.
Don MacFarlane
November 6, 2012 at 9:34 am
I have finished the front sheet of the Excel spreadsheet which may serve as a ready reference rather than to have to keep trawling every time something needs checked. The following sheets are for additional information that comes to light and I will start hitting Ancestry again over the next few days.
At a glance, some things jump out, one being that few of the John Stamp labourers had travellers of the same name in that ship or the other three ships that travelled to Philly that Summer. The four exceptions I have found so far are Craig, Elliott, Hunter and McKinney. Any relatives amongst the similar-named travellers were in a prime position to look out for or to enquire after their labourer relatives if they had disappeared.
There are other obvious patterns too but I will keep my powder dry for the moment till I check some more.
Eileen Breen
November 6, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Aye! Keep us in suspense! I saw a family tree of Aikens on-line on Ancestry. She made some corrections on the names. Also I saw three other trees with the same name. I tried to write to the one I thought that didn’t copy the others but I haven’t heard from him so I will try the others.
I was also thinking Philadelphia was a gateway to move elsewhere. It didn’t take long for people to spread westward. I read that many people just squatted on the land, not bothering to get a deed, rent or try to own the land. They just settled there, making their own mark. That’s why I thought these people were planters choosing their own destiny. In the US. The Campbells and Shaws wanted to own land, participate in their faith, government and the judicial system and to pursue an education. It seemed on the ship Ontario there were many names on the manifest that were also in the article you put up the other day. In the article it also showed that some people first settled in one area, then moved to a new area on the frontier, risking their lives perhaps for better land.
Don MacFarlane
November 6, 2012 at 5:44 pm
Just a few points for now about the spreadsheet.
The Duffy Crew are marked in red for easy identification.
The Donegal Baronies are not strictly adhered to.
The important Laggan region from which many of the weavers would be expected to come straddles Raphoe and KIlmacrenan Baronies.
I have bumped the English-speaking part of Banagh into Tirhugh.
Likewise, the Tyrone Baronies are not adhered to. I have grouped townlands according to proximity to market towns, hence Pomeroy for East Tyrone, Castlederg for West, Omagh for South and Ardstraw for North (the latter should have been Strabane to be consistent to the principle but Ardstraw was where a few of the boys came from, Strabane didn’t feature).
There is method to the madness for when I analyse trends in more detail. I am keeping in mind the possibility that these lads were rousted by a local agent for Duffy. They may not just have randomly responded to newspaper advertisements (though I am not ruling that out either) or have followed family chains of emigration.
Mary Cornell
November 5, 2012 at 8:58 pm
A couple more items for thought:
This weekend I was retracing some of our information from the Watsons and I came across a quote from WW in which he stated that the reason why they believed that the workers came from the John Stamp was because it was the only ship, of the several that came that summer, that brought ‘unskilled’ labourers. All three of us have read the passenger lists. I do not remember any of them using the word ‘unskilled’ at any point. They all use the term labourer, but not one had the word ‘unskilled’ attached to it. I doubt that one’s skill or not can be ascertained by name alone or place of origin alone. Possible prior knowledge on the part of Philip Duffy, but no such source available for the Watsons.
Eileen, I have been trying to think of an easier way for you to transcribe the names, especially since the longest list, the Asia, is the last one. If you haven’t already thought of it, one possible idea is maybe if you print out a copy of the passenger list from ISTG and make corrections on the list and then put it on Ancestry, all the information will be in front of you. What’s nice about Ancestry is that it does alphabetize and, when we find information, the names are easily available to add new information to the list. What is annoying about Ancestry is that they have undoubtedly been informed many times about the errors on the lists, yet they fail to correct them on the indices.
Paper is old school, I know, but I can work better with it that way. Even with all the crossouts, corrections and notations. Having the lists in front of me, in the order in which they were listed on the manifest, also gives valuable clues to passengers. Alphabetizing takes away some of the researcher’s intuition when looking at a file. Looking at a list and seeing two names, completely different, together and from the same town may be a clue. Are they related? Are they neighbors? Do they know any of the others?
Don MacFarlane
November 5, 2012 at 7:15 pm
There is no Irish name called Eales, that is why I think it is Eilis but spelt wrongly. It is generally thought to be the Irish for Elizabeth but I am not convinced.
The only Irish surname beginning McGet is McGettigan and they all came from Lifford in Donegal, next door to Strabane in Tyrone, and they were supposedly a branch of the O’Neills.
Crosson is always spelt Crossan.
The only Dysart I know is in Scotland but there are a few places in Ulster that start with Desert, such as Desertmartin where desert is translated from ‘diseart’, meaning hermitage or retreat.
Eileen Breen
November 5, 2012 at 12:59 am
Those on the Ontario came as a large family. I think it would be interesting to take the article you put up on Nov 4 about the Irish naming places in PA after townlands in Ulster. Many of the names listed under the PA towns are names we are seeing on the ship manifests. Maybe we could add these PA towns in each person’s profile to see if we find them in the 1840, 1850, 1860 US census. This could be a good article to research how the Presbyterians named their new home after their homes in Ulster – as the article stated, in an emotional tie to their homeland.
The article also spoke about indentured servants. This occurred up until 1831. In an article I read about the Presbyterian Church it said that teachers were recruited to work in Presbyterian Church schools and were almost always indentured servants. I think on the Ontario there was a teacher. There was also an article on-line about servants in early PA in Philadelphia. So far I haven’t see anyone under their occupation listed as a domestic. I think this word was used later in 1880s. Many of the women listed their occupation only as spinster. Either they were working in the mills, in private homes or did not have a job lined up before they left Ireland. Only a few were traveling with children that were not their own. Most traveled alone. They may have been recruited to work in the two thousand mills in Philadelphia.
Mary Cornell
November 4, 2012 at 7:32 am
I am going to speculate that Biddy and Bernard McIlheaney and John and Jane McClasson (McClannon) were brother and sister, given the BB and JJ combination. I have been unable to find a trace of Biddy (Bridget) anywhere. I started thinking about the lone woman who was found with the others, the washerwoman. A sister may have followed her brother for work. These were the only four on the John Stamp who seem to fit the brother/sister combination. Maybe we should consider that one of these two women were part of Duffy’s Cut.
Mary Cornell
November 3, 2012 at 8:28 pm
The Duffy’s Cut temp looks good but just a couple of suggestions for our ease of reading when we start to fill in the blanks. I think we should put all of the original information that we have from the manifests as well as the names in boldface with empty lines (subsections) underneath for all of the possibilities that we find. If we find information that eliminates a possibility, then Don can remove it from the list.
Aha moment- the Watsons do not have a list of the crew from any source, rr or otherwise. If they did, all of the names would be listed on the plaque and they would have had no need for genealogical research. The only unknowns would be the number of buried bodies.
Don MacFarlane
November 4, 2012 at 9:59 am
I may be wrong but I don’t think so as I have triple and quadruple checked. I believe the Watsons have taken down from the internet the image of the memorial plaque with the names of the Duffy Cut’s crew on it. As Mary would say, “hmm …..”.
Eileen Breen
November 4, 2012 at 1:21 pm
The bullets look like Munier’s bullets, designed to inflict damage. The bullet rotates as it enters the body, tearing the tissue, instead of the musket ball that would enter and exit the wound. The Munier’s bullet with its three grooves at the base would stay inside the body and people had a higher risk for infection than with the musket ball. In the Civil war men would rather die than be sent to an army hospital where the infection rate was very high and more men died of infection than from the gunshot wound.
Eileen Breen
November 4, 2012 at 1:11 pm
On the ancestry ship manifest under the name it will have the name as it appeared on the transcript and the correction. I also made the correction where their name appears on their profile page. The townland correction appears on the profile page only. You have to look at the manifest to see the townland before it was corrected. BTW: Page 2 of the Ontario is very difficult to read. So if you both could check it out. I didn’t get to look up all the townlands I had trouble with but I hope to once I finish. If anyone has suggestions for corrections let me know. I feel like giving Ancestry a piece of my mind! Interesting that the Watson’s took down the page. It may still be on UTUBE. I noticed a few hints when doing the Ontario. People connected the ship to their tree but the dates don’t seem to match. People often don’t have the documents in their family to prove what they’re putting in their tree. Often people copy other people’s trees along with their mistakes.
Don MacFarlane
November 4, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Here is a very comprehensive account of the settlement of Pennsylvania by Ulster-Scots in the 1700s. Ulster-Scots made Chester County what it became and the Watsons could not be more wrong when they portray the Irish in PA as ragamuffins and aliens.
http://www.academia.edu/1558778/From_Rostrevor_to_Raphoe_An_Overview_of_Ulster_Place-Names_in_Pennsylvania_1700-1820
The more I look into this, brace yourselves, I can see a book coming out of this project yet, and not just a chapter. If so, and that is a very big if, I will not be looking for any other contributors, just those that have been doing the work – yourselves! A possible downside for yourselves is that it would be all about Ulster and PA, nothing in it at all about Massachusetts or Colorado.
Don MacFarlane
November 3, 2012 at 8:04 am
Obviously, you are working on a different plane in Ancestry compared to me. I am just plodding along with the very much more restricted remit of names I suggested we concentrate on (thirty in number, or at most seventy, not seven hundred – due to their greater distinctiveness. That is not to say they should be set in stone but, as you say, a name could be set aside but recorded as such if it is spent, and other names that meet the criteria could be added – such as McClay and Donaghey which are sufficiently distinctive.
To put it bluntly, we shouldn’t be looking at any of the following names due to their prolixity or over-abundance: Doherty, Bell, Campbell, Johnston, Smith, O’Neill, Anderson, Kelly, Reilly, Brown, Thompson, Gallagher, Knox, Watson, Baird, Bradley, Moore. Having said that, a ditinctive first name or a family cluster could render any of these names useful despite how common the surname happens to be. In brief, I would view it as a matter of quota sampling. If we stick to the number of thirty that we have and see how much detail can be got for that name. Once it is spent, archive it and replace it with some other name off a reserve list which seems to have more potential, perhaps as the result of some new information that has randomly come to light.
When push comes to shove, the primary aim is still to find the men of Duffy’s Cut, or to prove within reason that the Watsons are correct in their major assumption that they are Disappeared. A secondary aim is to illustrate just how difficult it is to trace ancestors from the early 1800s, even with the aid of Ancestry.com and even with such a specific lead, which is not available to most family researchers, of the name of a ship and the precise date of arrival in the US. Compare that with trying to trace in Ireland where most of the records have been burnt.
As far as where to place the discussion, I prefer that to be on the website rather than by email. If there is something sensitive in a communication that can be by email first of course. Otherwise, we don’t really know what could be of interest to a general readership and I will feed back to you if there is a following for FTT rather than the other pages. Also, anything that is on-line (but not so with an email of course) can be picked up on by Google as a keyword. For example, only yesterday, Google directed to this site a searcher who used the keywords ‘Allison and Eakin’. Alternatively, we can use the Duffy’s Cut page on celtdomain.com or open up a separate page on this website and transfer the material there.
I will get an Excel spreadsheet organised to organise the data if it gets to be voluminous.
Don MacFarlane
November 3, 2012 at 9:09 am
Could we confine any more detailed work to a restricted sample of waxwings and see how they measure up. This does not exclude any random but useful information that has been or will be thrown up from the kiteflying exercise? Likewise, any folks that capture the imagination, such as the Aiken family can be in the mix. Note that asterisks refer to members of family units travelling, therefore they can be cross-indexed. I have prepared a very rudimentary spreadsheet called TempDuffy which can be accessed from the top of this page just under the United Irishment picture. There are three sheets to accommodate all the items and I have left Sheet Three mostly unheaded for your input of things I may have left out.
Putative Duffy’s Cut Crew
John Ruddy (1814)- 1 entry
David Patchill – 0 entry
Robert Skelton (1812) – 1 entry
George Quigley (1810) – 1 entry
James Cully – 0 entries, one for 1834.
Reserve List: John Long, Samuel McKinney, William Mahon, John Hunter, William Hastings, James Cully, Brian McGourley, William Elliott, John McGlone, Robert Ewing, John Craig, Patrick McAneaney, Robert McConnell, William Diven*
John Stamp Weavers
John Doak (1813)- 3 entries, one for 1834, one for 1835 (later arrivals).
Barney (Bernard) Rice – 0 entry
Adam Diamond – 1 entry
John Ewing (1816) – 3 entries, two for later arrivals (1834 and 1837).
Reserve List: John Potter, James Fullerton, Robert Livingstone, James Risk*.
John Stamp Females
Eliza McGhee – 0 entries until put in John Stamp. An ‘Oh,oh’ momentfor Ancestry, obviously.
Amelia Doak – 1 entry
Nancy McGonigle – 1 entry
Rosannah McQuillen* – 0 entry.
Letitia Risk – 0 entry
Biddy (Bridget) McIlheaney – 1 entry
Catherine Allison – 1 entry
Reserve List: Fanny Mahon, Mary Crawford*, Sally Loman, Molly Scallin, ElHizabeth Wilkinson, Letitia Risk, Peggy McKendrick, Eleanor McGettigan, Jane Kernaghan, Elizabeth McPhilemy, Eliza Patrick, Hannah Maguire*, Rachel Barr*
Males from other Ships
Robert Arthur (1811)- 2 entries on Ancestry.
Edward Blackwell (A)- 1 entry.
John Culbertson (A)- 1 entry, but John given as Jno.
Edward Edgar (1808) – 1 entry
Andrew Fergie (1812) – 1 entry but misnamed as Andrew Fargg.
Arthur McQuade (A) – 1 entry, but Arthur given as A?th?
James Snodgrass (A)- 1 entry for 1836
William Speer (1802)- 1 entry
Thomas Southwell (1811) – 1 entry
Leitch brothers (P) – 5 entries
Anthony McDonagh (1810) – 1 entry
David Peoples (1807) – 1 entry
Stewart Davis (1810) – 1 entry
John Gilfillan (1807)- 1 entry but given as Gilfillen.
Reserve List: Johnston Stevenson, Thomas Owens, John Woods, James Lecky, Samuel Hay, Andrew Deery, Robert Kernaghan, Charles Bredin, William McPhilemy*, Francis Davis, Samuel Kyle, Andrew Leitch*
Mary Cornell
November 3, 2012 at 5:46 pm
You have addressed many of the concerns I was having as to how we should approach the names..I have been researching much the same way Don has been, looking for the names on the short lists. I was finding too many possibilities doing it the other way. I was wondering how we should deal with what we find. For example, I found a Bernard Rice, correct age range, hotel manager in Philadelphia 1860. This would be a ‘possibility’, unlike Rosannah McQuillen, who is a ‘definite’ find. Should we have a simple list, for reference only, with headings Found, Possible and Still Lost listed under their respective ships?
Eileen Breen
November 2, 2012 at 9:43 pm
FFT: 37 laborers on the John Stamp. 29 laborers on the Prudence. total: 56. I didn’t include other occupations.
Eileen Breen
November 2, 2012 at 8:56 pm
FFT: I found a history of the First Presbyterian Church of West Chester, Pennsylvania.
“By 1830 the population of West Chester, PA increased to 1244. Completion of the rail road from Philadelphia to Columbia rendered it practicable to connect West Chester to the city by the Branch Road that began in 1831 and was completed in 1832. The original road was laid with yellow pine string pieces and strap rails. The motive power was horses. Steam was introduced in 1845”.
In 1831 there were following faiths in West Chester, PA: RC, Friends, Methodist, Episcopal. Those that did not belong to these formed the first Presbyterian Church. By 1832 there were 1500 people living in West Chester, PA and on 3 July 1832 the cornerstone was laid for the First Presbyterian Church, just 2 days before Cholera would break out in Philadelphia.
In a record from the church I didn’t notice any names of our men but names that came up in the Presbyterian church included Barber, Gallagher, Thompson, Long, White and Shaw. One of the founding fathers and reverend in the church was Rev. Robert Smith in 1786 from Londonderry, Ireland. I saw a few family trees on line with his tombstone. I don’t know if this church actively recruited people from Ireland. I haven’t been able to connect to it yet. This article stated Presbyterians disliked the Church Of England, a church that felt it must have a king.
Mary Cornell
November 2, 2012 at 5:32 pm
I think the control should still be the Watson’s list or the John Stamp passengers, then we continue to methodically eliminate or keep names on the list. As long as one name is found elsewhere it cannot be discounted from any source, for example John Ruddy in Allegheny. The criteria used by the Watsons must be assumed to be faulty, or if the same criteria can be shown for any other passenger on any ship, it will also hold that the criteria is faulty.
We are probably going to find many dopplegangers out there, as Eileen has already found, and there will most likely be something that will remove it from the list We are looking for the name that cannot be discounted. I suppose right now it is all about plodding through the masses.
The difficulty with Ancestry is the transcription errors in spelling, thereafter the errors in what is indexed in the system. Even though it will pull up variations, some of the errors are so completely incorrect that they are not included in a variation. What I find strange is that I found John Ruddy in Familysearch and Ancestry is its parent site. Eileen should have been able to find it the first time she ran the name through. Does this mean that the Ancestry indexes are not consistent throughout each site? The name John Ruddy should be showing up in multiple areas of Ancestry and it is not.
BTW Eileen could you put me on as a contributor to the Ontario Family Tree?
Eileen Breen
November 1, 2012 at 10:43 pm
I was looking at the Ontario and saw that there are many woman traveling by themselves, marked on register as spinster. I think they may have been recruited for work in the mills. In my city we had an account of 100 woman all were single and the article spoke about how these woman from Ireland were hired for a particular mill. So we’ll have to see if there are any local histories in PA that might relate to this. I’m going to try to put up a few more names on the Ontario. this manifest is very light so if you and Mary could take a peek and see if the names and places are correct that would be helpful. I’ll try to do more searching on the list you put up earlier.
Eileen Breen
November 1, 2012 at 6:38 pm
So far I’m not having too much luck:
Patchill: no entries.
George Quigley b. 1809: found one in Pittsburg, PA in 1850. In 1840 Philadelphia, Lower Delaware Ward. In Baltimore, MD in 1849. Died 2/19/1835 Allegany County, in PA in a military record. These records don’t seem promising.
John Doak: This name seems like a dime a dozen. The name appears in Episcopalian/ Methodist records. One is married in 1833 in Philadelphia, Columbia, PA. Also found in Canada in Ontario. Also the name is found in an American textile Directory in 1895 which is too late for our John Doak but I was thinking maybe it was a family business: “John Doak’s Carpet And Yarn Dyeing Mill”. There was an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer about a fire in 1895. I couldn’t find out anymore on this. The name is also in three different wards in Philadelphia in the 1840s. Captain John Doak d. 1/29/1862 record in a Presbyterian Church. Also a death in 1826-1847 Methodist/Episcopal church: Old St George Church.
I also found an article by Thomas H. Campbell of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church (same church that the Cambell/Shaw family belonged to. ‘Good News On the Frontier – A History Of The Cumberland Presbyterian Church’. He didn’t mention too much that happened in 1832 in PA other than that the Scotch-Irish who were kicked off their land in Ulster were Presbyterians who settled first in Philadelphia. This was the site of the first Presbyterian Church in the US and their goal was to expand westward in the US, then in overseas missions. I think it’s no coincidence that the Presbyterians on the John Stamp came to Philadelphia.
Eliza McGhee: d 19 Sept 1883, 26 Lombard St, 7th Ward, Philadelphia. Cathedral Cemetery. She was married but I couldn’t see the actual record or whom she married. I couldn’t find her in any Philadelphia census but in NY there was an Eliza McGhee in an asylum in 1880. I also tried variations of that name without success.
James Cully, Crilly, Culley b 1805 in Tyrone. I found Civil War records in 1864, 1861 and in 1865 in Coalport, Carbon, PA (Government marker 395) in the Old Immaculate Conception Cemetery. I aso found in the 1860 Census a James Crilly in Chester County in the Phoenixville section of Philadelphia.in 1860. James Culley is listed in a church pamphlet in St. Stephan’s Episcopal Church and a death 1 Oct 1872.
Amelia Doak: I couldn’t find her at all either withjohn Doak or by herself. Maybe she got married or died?
Adam Diamond: I was unable to find him. Perhaps he moved on to another state with the Episcopal/Methodist Church? The family that had Roseanna Diamond was aware of Adam on the ship but they also couldn’t locate him nor did they have any info on him.
John Ruddy: I was unable to find John Ruddy or any variation of the name.
Robert Skilton: as stated in a previous post, history was provided by the family and I put it in the tree as a possibility.
I saw the name Ewing in some Presbyterian records when looking for John Doak but I didn’t see his name. I can try a search for him.
Catherine Allison: I saw she might be married to John Doak and that both were on the John Stamp. She died on 16 Jul 1868 in Philly. She was born in Wicklow, Donegal, Ireland. She ived at 342 N. 21st St, 15th ward, Philadelphia and she had 7 children: According to a family tree on Ancestry the children were Joseph, James, Andrew, Maryann, Sarah Jane, Isabella and William. I looked for it in the Census but couldn’t find it today – I will look again and try to write to the family. In 1878 it listed Doak, Catherine, widow of John. address: 107 Webster St, Pittsburg, PA. Maybe Catherine Allison Doak looks right?
Mary Cornell
November 2, 2012 at 3:55 am
This result is an example of why it is not advisable to rely on a single source. Several sources give a more rounded view and more chance to catch errors on the part of both the researcher and the source material. Was there only one John Ruddy on the passenger lists? We have only looked at the passenger lists of four ships of the many that arrived in Philadelphia in 1832. The other John Ruddy, the one in Richmond, I leaned toward ruling out because he had a small child around five who was listed as born in Ireland. So somewhere between 1845 and 1850, there was a John Ruddy on a inbound ship from Ireland that arrived in Philadelphia.
Don MacFarlane
November 2, 2012 at 6:05 am
Ruddy was a very common name on the Western seaboard of Ireland, mostly around Mayo but probably with a bit of drift, in this case northwards to Donegal. So it doesn’t surprise me that there could have been more than one John Ruddy leaving Ireland.
What I was getting at, at least as far as I understand the way Ancestry works which has its multiple sources as you say, is if I punch in John Ruddy and I have also punched in Passenger Lists, it will throw up all the John Ruddys it can find in its system, not only for the years I have chosen. If I have not specified Passenger Lists, it will throw up results for all sources, not just Immigration.
Hence, a negative result implies just that, and that is what I meant by fault-line. Ancestry may not be as 100% reliable as one might be inclined to think. Or it may be 100% reliable and absence from its databank may mean disappearance. The Watsons may have jumped to some big conclusions by being so certain about these ‘deaths’, on the basis of the above asumption, or on the basis of some other archival evidence which they have not disclosed and which is not in Ancestry. Either way, the Watsons may have already discovered all the other John Ruddys and discounted them all for the same reasons that you have done?
This goes back to the ‘absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence’ point I was making, otherwise known in statistical circles as Type 1 Error. The example we have here is the other type, a Type 2 Error, which is the opposite, ‘presence of evidence does not mean evidence of presence’. And this is where the confounding element had to be considered, which you have done, by showing a characteristic in the doppleganger that the original John Ruddy did not have – a child born in Ireland. A neat illustration and warning that there will likely be other cases that will pose a similar problem.
Having gone ‘all round the houses’ with this explanation, I am more confused in my own head than ever. Why are all John Ruddys, including the one with the child in Ireland, not showing in the Passenger Lists? Except that maybe they are? Perhaps the other John Ruddys you found do not satisfy the search criteria of a) being born in 1814 and b) arriving in the US in 1832? Also, if you punch in the doppleganger, will he come up as having arrived on the John Stamp?
BTW, I find it quite unnecessary and irritating about Ancestry, even though I know it is trying to be helpful, that even when you specify criteria it ignores them and throws up all the names, even those that clearly do not match. By the way, having sorted out Rossgeir in the other case, I tried to make sense of Ballyhall which is known to be a place in Kilkenny and Tipperary, too far away for this boat I would think. There is an elusive Ballyhall in County Down which I have not been able to locate but I am aware from another source of a family called Strain, nothing to do with this study, from a Ballyhall in County Down which must be a pinpoint on the map. I thought I knew County Down inside out and I have never heard of it.
Don MacFarlane
November 2, 2012 at 7:53 am
I checked my shortlist of names for 1832 Philly arrivals from Ireland and I got a 90% hit rate. In other words, Ancestry failed to identify 10% of names in its own system and they were all females for some odd reason – Eliza McGhee (Mcgee), Rosannah McQuillen (McLucas) and Letitia Risk (Rosh)- because of transcription errors (brackets).
Curiously, there was a glitch in the Ancestry system with a message ‘undergoing maintenance’ and when it came on-line again, its performance was much worse, with it failing to hit with 40% of names it had got right before. Something to look out for.
Eileen Breen
November 2, 2012 at 9:10 pm
There’s a Patrick Ruddy b. 1822 d. Philadelphia in 1862 buried in Cathedral Cemetery, listed with a Margaret Ruddy on some other records. There are a lot of Patrick Ruddys from Donegal that are possibilities? The only reason they pick John Ruddy was because of this dental anomally. The only thing we can do is rule out some of these people with actual family histories on line or from the newspaper articles we are going to do. Many people have the same name and places. We need the histories then to try to line up the timelines.
Eileen Breen
November 1, 2012 at 12:23 am
I started to put up the Ontario. Did we decide on Profsgeer? I couldn’t find it in Derry. Also Shubunc? couldn’t read it, can’t find it in Derry. Lifford comes up as in England. Couldn’t find it in Derry. If you both could look at the list I’m not sure about a few last names Slaven, Sproul. Carrigen comes from N. Limvady. I know there’s a Limvady, is there a North Limvady?
Don MacFarlane
November 1, 2012 at 8:36 am
I think the ship’s bursar just put down at random whatever came into his head and there is no such place as Profsgeer. I tried to trace where Ryan, Slaven and McGettigan could all have come from as they all supposedly came from ‘Profsgeer’ but I am still none the wiser. I think you will have to leave Profsgeer out as it would be misleading.
Shubunc is Strabane and there is a place called Lifford which is in Donegal just across the bridge from Strabane. Miss Slaven’s first name is Eilis and it is Miss Carrigan from Limavady (formerly known as Newtownlimavady) and the lazy bursar has put that down as N’Limavady. Not so unusual and today people write L’Derry but more for cagey political reasons.
I haven’t the first clue where Ballyhall is and I think that is a mistake too. I think overall ‘if in doubt, leave out’ rather than mislead. Hopefully, for some of those people, more so the waxwings, more material will come to light on them later, especially the Aikens from ‘Ballyhall’? If you can decipher the name just above, John McLurg (?) who is also from ‘Ballyhall’, that might give a clue.
Eileen Breen
November 1, 2012 at 12:16 pm
FFT: Could Profsgeer be Innishkeel, Donegal. On another ship we had someone from there. I’ll try to do some searches today on the list you put up.
Eileen Breen
November 1, 2012 at 1:19 pm
I couldn’t find David Patchill. There’s a Thomas Patchel in Philadelphia but I couldn’t connect him.
George Quigly: I found one b 1809. Ours from the J. Stamp b 1810. He was in Pittsburg, PA in 1850 and Philadelphia Lower Delaware Ward in 1840. There’s a military record d 2/19/35 near Harrisburg, PA. Couldn’t read the town. In 1870 in Pittsburg, PA. Owned a bookstore. Doesn’t sound like our guy.
Don MacFarlane
November 1, 2012 at 1:44 pm
I think I’ve struck lucky with ‘Prossgear’. As I thought, it is just a case of a very forward slanting handwriting style, coupled with use of a quill, coupled with a strong and semi-literate Donegal accent.
The Ryan family, Eilis Slevin (Slaven/Slavin – father Charles?), Hugh Gallagher (parents James and Catherine?) and Sally McGettigan (?) all came from a little townland called Rossgeir in Clonleigh Parish in County Donegal, just outside Lifford and Strabane. Brian McGourley No. 99 may also have been from that townland (father Charles?) although I had pooh-poohed the name McGurley on the Cut headstone – may need a fresh look at that one?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bhilchey/MClonleigh.html
A hunch – just in case Duffy arranged a raid on Clonleigh through some agent, names that might have come from there, or have close relatives from there even if from Derry or Donegal, and are mentioned in manifests are – Allison, Bell, Boyle, Bryan, Byrne, Callan, Garland, Carrigan, Cochrane, Cooke, Cummins, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, Ewing, Galbraith, Greer, Henderson, Hood, Houston, Lecky, Little, Logue, Long, McAleer, McBrierty, McGettigan, McGinley, McGourley, McMenamin, Nelis, Ryan, Scanlan, Slevin,
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/clonleighgv.htm
Don MacFarlane
November 1, 2012 at 5:43 pm
Sometime I will take a run up to PRONI in Belfast and see if I can find some trace in the 1832 Strabane Morning Chronicle of the call-ups or general gossip about theae departures. My hunch is that the intersection between Tyrone, Donegal and Derry that forms the basin of the Lough Foyle is where many of these people came from. That would be Clonleigh (Donegal), Urney/Donaghedy/Ardstraw (Tyrone) and Newbuildings/Prehen (Derry), with some stargglers from further afield such as the Diamond/McQuillen clan from the Sperrins of mid-Ulster and otners from Belfast. I think there are hardly any (just a smattering) from the remaining counties on these ships – Fermanagh, Down or Armagh. In sum, I think this search is hotting up and is taking on a sharper focus, fingers crossed. I am committed to seeing this through now that I have you both.
Mary Cornell
November 1, 2012 at 6:23 pm
I have to admit I have been off-course that last couple of days because I found a fascinating (huge) site on Irish emigration that I had never seen before. It is full of newspaper extracts that include shipping news, shipping advertisements, letters from North America to Ireland and back. I have limited myself to 1830 – 1835 The site covers over seven hundred years’ worth of information. The 1830s begin to give ‘the numbers’ of emigrants and which counties they were leaving from. The site is http://www.dippam.ac.uk. Right now I am still in the IED section (Irish Emigration Database). And it is vast.
Excerpt, 1830 April, COUNTY FERMANAGH MEETING
‘Emigration to America is proceeding rapidly in Sligo; eight vessels, for the passenger trade alone are fitted up. Sixty families from the County Leitrim have embarked for America this week.
The number of emigrants of the labouring classes who are going from Liverpool to Canada and the United States, at present appears to be unusually large. Most of them are from the agricultural districts, and some of them are assisted to leave the country by the parishes to which they belong. They are in general strong and active men, capable of earning a livelihood wherever labour is of any value. It is an unfortunate circumstance that such men should be unable to obtain a subsistence in their own native land.
No less than fifteen vessels have been laid on at Hull, to take out emigrants, chiefly to Quebec: 4400 applications for passage have been made in that town, and five hundred persons have sailed within the last week. The docks and quays are crowded with families emigrating’.
Mary Cornell
October 31, 2012 at 5:24 am
John Stamp Odds and Ends-
Catharine B? and John B? at full magnification, last name appears to be B_ _ ns, most likely Burns. On the same page, it looks like the Burns and Craig families are traveling together. I do not think that Margaret Speer is unaccompanied. The older Margaret Burns may be a grandmother or aunt. Also, five days earlier the Asia had arrived with a James, Jane, William, Eliza and Sarah Speer. Side note – On reading up on the Speer family, President William Buchanan’s mother was a Speer. There also seems to be a large number of Speers who immigrated to America from Northern Ireland during this time period.
I found a Margaret Speer in the 1860 Census for Philadelphia fitting our age requirement. I hope this is not our little Margaret; she is in the Alms House Surgical Ward. It means she has never married and is destitute. There is also a Margaret Burns (the younger) listed in the 1860 Census running a boarding house. Two of the other tenants list their occupation as weaver.
I have found two James Steel (Prudence). One is buried in the Chestnut Grove Cemetery in West Chester, Chester County, but the dates of birth and death are unknown. The other is listed as a book seller in Philadelphia. I also found an Eliza Wilkinson (Stamp) buried in West Laurel Cemetery in Philadelphia. Also no date of birth or death known.
After thought – there was rail travel in Ireland during this period so that reaching the port of departure in Derry would not have been difficult.
Eileen Breen
October 30, 2012 at 9:01 pm
When I looked up the Doaks,four trees have him in Canada then dying in PA. I’m not sure if this is correct and there is no sign of his sister, Amelia.
On the Immigrant Ship Transcribers Guild there is a listing of the John Stamp. They list Rosannah on a ship manifest as #79 Roseanna Diamond McQuillan who married Thomas McQuillan. Her brother is #81 Adam Diamond, a weaver b.1806 who is also on ship manifest but no records can be found after 1832. Roseanna died on 16 July 1849 in Blockly Almshouse in Philadelphia, PA, and is buried in a mass grave on hospital property. They lived in Kensington District, Philly and attended St. Michael’s RC Church. Elizabeth Clark is the great-grand-daughter.
Thomas went to Philly in 1830 to find work for his wife and son John.
They had five children: John b. 1829 in Derry, Ireland, d. prior to 1870 and he was a bricklayer. Passenger #80.
Eileen Breen
October 31, 2012 at 12:01 am
I haven’t checked all the hints yet! Check out Roseanna Diamond and her husband Thomas Joseph McQuillin’s family tree. They have photos!
There are people on Ancestry with this family tree. They had four sons and a daughter. The sons were all in the Civil War. Roseanna died young after having cholera for three days! She was born 1809 and died in 1849. There was a total of four cholera pandemics in Philadelphia. She was buried in a mass grave on the Blockly Hospital Grounds. Blockly Almshouse took care of the poor, psychiatric patients and was a general hospital. It was closed in 1977 and in an adjacent construction site in 1977 they found the remains of one thousand people. They were reburied in the Woodlands Cemetery in Philadelphia. I tried to look her up in the Woodlands listing but I didn’t find her.
Don MacFarlane
October 31, 2012 at 8:29 am
They fairly got about!
I take your point about the availability of rail travel. I had already concluded that some of the migrants had come from Antrim and further afield, which makes it all the stranger that the John Stamp ones were exclusively from the North West corner of the Province. My money is on Philip Duffy having an agent in Ireland doing his dirty work for him. Extra berths were given out to whoever, women included, who wanted them but the main group were the young men.
As far as the Diamond/McQuillan connection, Derry stretches as far as Lough Neagh so I figure the Diamonds were on the West (Derry) side of the Lough at Artrea; the Mcuillans were on the East side of the Lough from around Glenavy, near Aghalee. The train for Derry runs through there even to this day.
Eileen Breen
October 31, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Do you think there are records for the train? I do think that we may not find the laborers. Sometimes it’s easier to find the men by identifying the woman. Often there may be, for example, a lot of John Smiths but only one who is married to a certain woman. Sometimes you have to find a back door. The difficult thing with the John Stamp is the married couples were not listed together. Also they transcribed the manifest, not in order, but they took one from the A side of the page then one from the B side, and so on down the list. I was thinking the names on the manifest might be how they purchased the tickets rather than if they boarded together.
The Diamonds and McQuillans might be affiliated through their church as they were both Roman Catholic. The Watson team also said they tried to look up the passengers. I wonder if they had success with everyone but the laborers. Linda Lincoln on Ancestry wrote to me about Robert Skilton on the John Stamp. He and his son Robert were engineers in Philadelphia. she did not know if they worked for the Rail road. Robert travelled with a brother on the John Stamp.
Don MacFarlane
October 31, 2012 at 1:06 pm
I think there is a bit of divergence, not to mention conflict, of interest with regards to what direction the research could take and what findings the research could throw up. The search could a) be very specific and have a narrow, controlled focus, just as that which I originally conceived – labourers versus weavers, so as to prove or disprove the Watson murder hypothesis. Or b) it could trawl a bit wider, just as you have been doing, with the excitement and wonder that comes when each fresh discovery – of which there have been a number already as you know – takes one in a different direction.
The implications are different, depending which route one takes. I would say, on balance, consider the research to be in an exploratory phase and don’t tie your hands just yet. An eighteen-month time-frame seems about right, so there is time enough. That’s assuming you are content to devote the FTT during that time to this exercise alone.
Don MacFarlane
October 31, 2012 at 7:01 pm
I think I’m in two minds, or torn two ways. The logical or scientific part of my mind tells me to stick to a systematic method of enquiry. The intuitive part of my mind tells me that Eileen has hit upon something. Tapping into the Ancestry.com resource would never have occurred to me. I had no clue as to its potential, the task is difficult, and any advantage that comes from left of field is fine by me.
Don MacFarlane
October 30, 2012 at 7:36 pm
There were no Skiltons either in Donegal, only Skiltoars.
Eileen Breen
October 31, 2012 at 10:33 pm
Sometimes people changed their last names when they came here so as to be more American and sound less Irish.
Eileen Breen
October 29, 2012 at 11:39 pm
I received a note from Leonard Birney who I wrote to about Charles Birney. He said Charles worked for the Quarry and he didn’t have ties to the RR. I’m wondering if this quarry supplied the RR. Also, someone made a name correction for Robert Skelton. The correction was Skilton. Her name was Linda Lincoln and her ancestry sign-on is westchesterpa. I wrote to her to see what we can find out.
Don MacFarlane
October 30, 2012 at 12:25 am
You seem to have hit upon a rich seam with putting the names on Ancestry. Congrats. I tinkered with trying to see if any of the single women showed up as married later but so far I have got nothing.
Ship Ontario
The Aiken and Ryan families stand out here as both have broods of female children led by an older female relative who was not their mother or was a lady out of wedlock.
Mary Ryan (spinster) 32, Eleanor 11, Fanny 9, Nancy 7, Mary 5.
Nancy Carrigan (Kerrigan) 26.
Eilis Slavin 24.
Catherine Rodgers 23.
Catherine Ward 30.
Mary McDermott 30, Catherine 26.
Margaret McMenamin 26.
Sally Campbell 18.
Nancy Donaghy 23.
Rebecca Stewart 18.
Mary McShane 24, Nancy 22.
Eleanor Thompson 14.
Mary Neely 18.
May Carlin 25.
Jane Delin 23.
Charlotte Hamilton 25.
May McCormick 22, Biddy 19.
Hannah Aiken (spinster) 48, Peggy 26, Sally 25, Mary 24, Ann 20, Jane 18, Nancy 16, Janet 14, Sarah 9, Hannah 6 months.
Anne Crawford 26, Eliza 8, Jane 6.
Don MacFarlane
October 30, 2012 at 10:54 am
Ships to Philadelphia 1832
Not only in 1832, but for most of the first half of the century, it looks like ninety or more per cent of the ships for PA from Northern Ireland, maybe even Ireland, left from Derry. For most of our passengers that doesn’t matter if their places of origin appear in the manifests and are legible. If not, there may be no prima facie reason to expect that they came from the North West of Ulster. They could have come from Antrim or beyond.
The other side of that coin is that, if Derry was the only port of departure for PA for Ulster and beyond, why are our emigrants overwhelmingly from three counties in the North West only?
http://www.irishamericanjourney.com/2011/10/irish-ships-to-america.html
Leaving aside the boats from Ireland, boats from elsewhere to Philadelpia were carrying, almost invariably, passenger numbers in single digits most of the time. Therefore, if it wasn’t for the Irish, who exactly was going to be building the railways?
Don MacFarlane
October 29, 2012 at 7:47 am
My corrections and additions to the John Stamp but I haven’t put any in.
Patchill, not Patchell (William and David)
Boyle, not Boyll
Liam McKinney 16
Hastings, not Hasting
McAlear, not McAlean
Loman, not Lowan
Mary Shannon 86
Henry McCauley 84
Eleanor McGettigan, not McGilligan (afterthought) 111
McGlone 113
McAneaney 131
Sorry if I am repeating myself. The only change from yesterday is McGettigan. My writing is a lot worse than on the manifest but there are some oddities to it – mainly a little flourish at the end sometimes, but not always, and vowels being mixed up such as a being mistaken for u, which I put down to the use of a quill which would I presume be similar to a fountain pen in there being more friction and less ink on the apstruke (sorry, just being impish)!
Eileen Breen
October 28, 2012 at 9:31 pm
I think I may have found from the Prudence a Charles Birney AKA Charles A. Birney. I wrote to the man who put up the tombstone for Charles and his wife in Chester, Delaware County, PA, USA. I put up this tree and the photo. I’m waiting to hear. I also forgot a whole page on the Prudence so I’m backtracking. Hopefully I’ll get this done and start back on the John Stamp.
Eileen Breen
October 28, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Biographical Review Of Cass, Schuylar, and Brown Counties p. 365 gives the history of William Campbell brother of Mary Campbell Shaw and the Campbell history. This is the family who had money. The Cambell’s were on the farm in Tyrone for 3 generations. William owned and improved 2 farms close to the West Virginia border. He owned 1000 acres in Cass County, Ill plus 50 acres for cultivation. First farm he purchased land for $5.00 per acre. He married and had 4 children (they are not on the ship). He is not either, he comes to America in 1840. The family in Ireland were in the Episcopalian church. William later was in the Cumberland Presbyterian Church and a Democrat!
Eileen Breen
October 27, 2012 at 11:08 pm
Hi Don and Mary! I think we got a good tip: A man named emoss59 from Ancestry that I wrote to about Mary Shaw and the correction he made on the name. Her maiden name is Campbell. There is also another Mary Campbell on the John Stamp as well as other Campbell’s listed. I’m wondering if they recorded her name 2x once as Mary Campbell and as Mary Shaw. Her husband is Samuel Shaw.
This is where it gets interesting. Samuel Shaw 1st trip to America was in 1821. He was from County Tyrone, Ireland. He settled in Pittsburg, PA, USA. He’s listed as a farmer on the ship’s manifest on: 23 June 1832. He returned to Ireland and worked for a few years. Samuel and his wife Mary Campbell Shaw return to America 1832-33. They settle in Cass County, Illinois, USA. They have a son James A. Shaw. he is a judge and Speaker in the Illinois House Of Representatives 30th Assembly. The family came from money.
http://WWW.archive.org/stream/historyofleecounty00hill#page/235/mode/1up
Bio of Samuel Shaw: History of Lee County, published in 1881 by H.H. Hill, Chicago, Ill, p 235.
Mary Campbell Shaw’s brother is William Shaw. arrives in America in 1840.
Biographical review of Cass, Schuyler, and Brown Counties, Ill published in 1892 p. 365-66.
http://WWW.archive.org/stream/biographicalrev00:ill#page365/mode/1up
I believe emoss59 is from Europe. time stamp is GMT. Perhaps you can ask him questions?
Eileen Breen
October 28, 2012 at 1:06 am
I put the Shaws into a family tree under the John Stamp: Mary Campbell**, married to Samuel Shaw, both from Tyrone. Their son is James A. Shaw. Mary Campbell Shaw travels with her family (page two on the A side of the page). Mary’s husband, Samuel, is at the bottom of the page, Mary is athe top of page two, B side, and her son is listed below. I found a few census details for James A. He was the Judge and Speaker of the House in Illinois. The other Mary Campbell is the same age but from Derry – not the same family, listed at the bottom of page two, B side. There is a John Campbell from Derry who is a weaver,listed below her. Don’t know if these two are related. I wrote to emoss59 to clarify. I haven’t looked at William Campbell yet. He’s in the Cass county, Illinois archives.
Don MacFarlane
October 29, 2012 at 8:45 am
I may very well get on to emoss with a few questions but just a couple for yourselves in the meantime.
The Campbells went from being Episcopalian (Church of Ireland) to being Presbyterian in the US, you say, and also became Democrats. Not understanding the nuances of American politics, is there a contradiction between those two things? Are there more Presbyterians in the Democrat Party? Also, if the Campbells were that wealthy in Ireland, and they were not aristocrats, it kind of knocks for six the argument that emigrants left Ireland to escape hardship and poverty.
There was a programme last night with Matt Frei doing a drive round really hard-up Americans in Indiana, Iowa and other places, asking ordinary folks how they would vote next week. It was pretty grim. Frei went a bit Borat at one point in the programme and asked this very nice Mormon lady if she had ever shown her ‘magic pants’ to anyone. She curtsied nicely and said she was far too much of a lady for that. When I get over to the US in 2014, health permitting, I had planned to restrict myself to Penn and Seattle country and the documentary confirmed this for me even more. I might drop in on the Watsons!
Eileen Breen
October 29, 2012 at 1:38 pm
What! Not Massachusetts and Colorado! sigh! Why Seattle? I think you should see the Watsons! I saw a show about Then Men That Made America. Rail Road mogul Andrew Carnegie was a Presbyterian. I don’t think they drink alcohol. Were Democrats more for Prohibition? It’s sounds grim because we only have Obama and Mitt Romney who screwed up Massachusetts the last time he was governor. Both are going to put the US in a trillion dollar debt it will take multiple generations to get out of if at all!
The Presbyterians- didn’t they come from France for religious reasons, settling in Antrim and Dublin? They weren’t liked by Church Of England. They had to pay taxes towards a church they didn’t belong. So maybe they also left for religious reasons. Also many Presbyterians went to the Midwest. I recently helped someone do research. His family also came from Ulster and settled in the Midwest. Perhaps this is where their church could expand and be free and you could buy land.
I noticed on the John Stamp there was a gentleman and on the Prudence. Also quite a few farmers from Donegal and Tyrone where there was probably prime land. I remember reading that during the Transplantation England wanted Tyrone, Donegal and and Derry’s prime land for themselves. Many of the farmers could be land owners. In the case of the Campbells some stayed in Tyrone and others owned a large amount of land, became educated and were prominent leaders in Illinois.
Eileen Breen
October 27, 2012 at 7:24 pm
FFT: On the ship manifests there are quite a few people, both men and woman, where it said “single”, “spinster”, “unmarried”, “Married”. instead of where an occupation would be listed. Perhaps they were unemployed at the time the ship left. In later ship manifests in 1900s you had to have $20.00, a job and a person you knew you. Maybe this shows the state people were in before they left. In some of the listings they write what they came with. A few entries people came with no belongings, or a box, barrel or chest. One entry said “nothing”.
BTW: I do think our group has a lot of insight I just don’t want to step on anyone’s toes.
Mary Cornell
October 28, 2012 at 6:28 am
I could not believe the number of transcription errors on the Ancestry list for the John Stamp! Obviously knowing the letters of the alphabet was not a strong suit of that particular transcriber and where was the proofreader! At no time does Crawford look like Campo. I applaud your patience on this one.
I found the U of Penn article particularly informative as compared to some of the other articles on the subject. Did you notice that George ‘Dougherty’s’ father from Donegal knew exactly where the bodies were buried? And there was a George ‘Doherty’ from Donegal listed as one of the lost 57. Odd coincidence. One other thing that I noticed was the small size of John Ruddy’s skull. If that was the entire skull, it was more the size of a ten year old.
BTW I hope you have everything battened down Eileen. Sandy is heading right for you. Stay safe.
Don MacFarlane
October 28, 2012 at 9:33 am
Triple Check of Manifest
I believe these names to be as follows:
Eliza McGee=McGhee
Sam McKeney=McKinney or McKenny (less likely)
17 Margaret Sherwood
William Hasting=Hastings
John McAlean= McAlear (McAleer)
James Deviney=Devaney
87 Hugh Levingstone
90 and 96 Archy Ballantine
97 McCahill
98 McClelland
99 McGinley
104 Risk
106 McKendrick
111 McGilligan
113 McGlone
114 David Patchill
131 Patrick McAnerney
132 Thomas McConnell
136 Biddy McIlheaney
139 John Potter
145 William McMichael
I like Eliza McGhee already who appears to have been quite snooty about getting her name spelt correctly! BTW, as we never know where clues come from, should we include women in the sample?
McGhees, Mac Maol-Ghaoithe, not McGees = MacAodh, came from Kilmacrennan and are thought to be related to St Columba who came from there. Hence perhaps Eliza’s snootiness!
Don MacFarlane
October 28, 2012 at 10:58 am
Women from the Manifests
John Stamp
Eliza McGhee (Do) – Kilmacrennan
Nancy McGonigle (T)- Omagh
Eliza Wilkinson (Do)- Dunfanaghy
Rosanna McQuillen (De)- Ballyscullion
Catherine Allison (Do)- Lifford
Prudence
Sally Brisland (De)- Innishkeel
Mary Ellis (De)-
Margaret Rose (Do)- Inver
Elizabeth McPhelimy (Do)- Ardstraw
Isabella Lemon (T)- Donaghedy
Asia
Ruth Tea (Tighe) – Glenties
Letitia Culbertson – Clogherny
Ellen McNutt – Fahan or Derry
May McIlwaine (T)- Donaghenry
Ontario
Eilis Slavin (T)- Donacavey
Nancy Kerrigan (Carrigan)- Learmount
Also, a more refined look at the family composition in the passenger lists could throw up clues. Such as whole families travelling as a unit, with father but minus a mother, such as the Aikens with eight sisters in steps and stairs up through their teens.
Don MacFarlane
October 28, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Sorry, these letters were just pointers for myself when looking through Griffiths. I should have deleted them after – T for Tyrone, Do for Donegal, De for Derry.
Strangely, unlike with the men, the women can be pinpointed more to their places of origin in Griffiths. There are fewer alternatives with them as it happens and so a better than good chance that the places listed are where these women were from. Another reason why women should be included is if they are easier traced? I’m really taken with Eliza McGhee as she seems to have been quite feisty! I think I’ll start looking through marriage records for these women. I’d love to find out more about her.
Mary Cornell
October 28, 2012 at 5:34 pm
The information on Dougherty/Doherty is in the article you posted yesterday from upenn.edu/gazette. It is in the section concerning finding the actual location of the bodies.
We should definitely look into the women. One of the bodies they found was a woman. I don’t know how they know she was a washerwoman, but she may have been related to one of the workers. Possibly a washerwoman or camp cook? Looking at the lists, many were traveling as family units. Barr and Brisland families come to mind. A sister or mother could have been hired by the railroad for menial labor.
Eileen Breen
October 26, 2012 at 12:58 pm
FFT: If the men were shot using muskets, it must have been a slow process to load the weapon 57-60 X! If 1 musket shoots only 1 musket ball at a time then one would have to reload again and again. Perhaps there were more than one shooter. Wouldn’t this give the men time to run? Unless the men had poor nutritional stores to begin with as you stated from enduring The Famine then sailing to America, then having the misfortune of contracting Cholera. They would of had to be in the Cold Stage of Cholera in order to not have run away. If the men were in a starvation state when they came to America how did they find the strength to work 12 hour days digging out the path for the rail road through the most extreme terrain of Duffy’s Cut?
Don MacFarlane
October 27, 2012 at 6:07 am
Robust Reply from Bill Watson
“It seems you have perhaps spoken to Norm Goodman, the former deputy coroner in Chester County. Norm is NOT a specialist in old remains. His expertise has been disavowed by the current county coroner, who removed him from his position. Our forensic specialist is Dr. Janet Monge, bone curator of the University of Pennsylvania Museum, the foremost physical anthropologist in the area, who has ten thousand sets of human remains deposited at the university to work on. You need to speak to her before putting something like this into print. It is totally false. There were seven graves exacavated; six sets of remains; five buried here; one to be buried in Ireland. Janet has concluded that all were murdered with no defensive wounds apparent on the bodies”.
I think it was the phrase I used ‘strongly speculative’ that got under his skin. If he read the whole of the article, he should have picked up that the larger points were to do with the jump between seven and fifty seven as the tally of murdered. Plus the decision to place dodgy names on the headstone, plus his insistence that it was the John Stamp only if at all they sailed on. He appears not to have answered those points, at least so far, plus his focussing only on labourers and not weavers etc. I would rather he had concentrated on that as otherwise he seems to be ‘ducking and diving’.
He also seems to place a lot of faith in Dr Janet Monge. I have no dispute with him in that but I listened to her on the topic of the remains and I don’t remember her being categorical on whether the evidence pointed to murder. She believes on balance that they were murdered but I don’t recall her ever saying there was no room for doubt. In other words, Bill needs to stand up and be counted for the parts of the story he has put together himself which to my mind are ‘strongly speculative’, and that is putting it kindly, and not hide behind Janet Monge. It also doesn’t do Bill any credit that he seems to rubbish Norm Goodman’s contribution as Norm (now 76 if still alive) was highly respected in his line of work and volunteered his services to the Duffy Project. Norm has made a massive contribution in his work on 9/11 and Haiti – leave him alone!
This does not take away from the fact that I admire Bill for the doggedness with which he has pursued the truth of what happened to these men, so he should not tarnish his efforts with speculation. I can be just as dogged as him.
Eileen Breen
October 27, 2012 at 12:18 pm
The number Dr Watson obtained was from the PRR file and not his own. I think he feels there are more and he alluded to that when he stated he needed more funding to exhume the rest of the graves. Further, the Amtrack rail road that owns the tracks now won’t let them near the current tracks. Personally, the blame needs to go to Philip Duffy who had all the accounts of this story removed from the archives. Also, I think the number 57-60 men came from the the mile number the men were on when they died. They died at mile 59. I don’t believe Duffy cared about the men or the number of men who died. He just wanted to cover it it up ASAP.
I don’t feel we should send Professor Watson any more correspondence until we have answers. We risk not working with them -I do feel this is important as they are not totally without merit. I know you want to come to your own conclusions but he’s been open to us until now. They have the right to feel protective of the work they have done. They probably feel that although they put this story out there and should be held to scrutiny but who are we (meaning us). Two of us have no credentials in this matter and we are highly speculative ourselves. It was interesting that one of the remains was found with a musket ball embedded. This shows there was foul play.
I have put up about half of the John Stamp Tree. This was no easy task. There are multiple transcription errors as well as illegible handwriting. If you both could go over this when it’s done. In two places we can make changes in the names. On the original ship manifest click on the name under the manifest. You can write in if you feel it’s a transcription error or if you feel this name didn’t belong to the Irish living in Norther Ireland at the time. It will then appear in the family tree under the person’s name highlighted by a graphic of a pencil. Others can read your conclusion. In the tree you can edit the name and change it to what you feel is the correct name. I changed a few names when I felt it was incorrect and indicated the reason. I also wrote to someone who stated one of the men on the John Stamp may have died in Illinois but the dates he had in his tree were too early to be this person.
Don MacFarlane
October 27, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Daily Mail Article March 2012
Beats me what Bill Watson is getting heated up about when I read this article!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112653/Bodies-5-Irish-immigrants-murdered-killed-cholera-building-railroad-1832-proper-burial-mass-grave.html
Eileen Breen
October 25, 2012 at 3:37 pm
The United States was on the forefront of the American Industrial Revolution. The fears and prejudices that burdened the Irish for centuries in Ireland were also rampant in America.
Perhaps unknown to America’s new work force was that the 2nd Cholera Pandemic that initiated in India in 1817 had jumped the continent to Western Europe by 1831. In Paris, France over one million people died from to Asiatic Cholera and a far greater number were symptomatic of the disease. The disease was transferred from India to North America followed by Canada and all the major US Ports by ships that transported immigrants to their destinations. In July 1832 Asiatic Cholera reached Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
The College Of Physicians and the Board Of Health were responsible for the welfare and health of the citizens of Philadelphia. They did not believe Asiatic Cholera was a contagion. They recommended to have city officials in Philadelphia clean up the city of it’s “filth”. They also expressed their fears that immigrants, poor, immoral and certain ethnic traits were responsible for spreading the disease. In sections of Philadelphia where the Irish and African American population resided, they had a three-to-four times higher mortality rate from the disease. In the height of the pandemic they released prisoners with cholera in the hopes they would not spread the disease. The City of Philadelphia had 935 deaths. This number wasless than New York and 40% less than Canada. The Board Of Health and the College Of Physicians recommended the city use clean drinking water to clean the city. Philadelphia did see a reduction in the mortality from this intervention.
It wasn’t until 1852 that a Dr Snow observed that a bacterium in feces contaminated drinking water was a contagion responsible for the Cholera pandemic. This bacteria produced a toxin in the colon. The toxin doesn’t allow the intestine to hold onto water. A severe, rapid loss of bodily fluids from nausea, vomiting and diarrhea leading to shock and death in 60% of those afflicted. The elderly, woman, infants and children and those with low immune systems, no resistance to the disease and people with poor nutrition are at the highest risk for mortality.
In 1832 the treatment for Cholera was to give patients whiskey, Opium and Epsom salts. Today it’s oral and intravenous hydration in severe cases and antibiotics and the continued education on prevention and maintaining the health of someone who has been afflicted with the disease. EX; straining the water through filters, not to wear contaminated clothing, stressing the need to use clean chlorinated water for drinking, bathing and laundering clothing, how to filter the water and to make oral hydration There is also needs to be an emphasis placed on governments to make their citizens a priority and fund projects for proper sanitation, establishing and maintaining chlorinated water supplies no matter what ethnic, race, color, economic, cultural, creed a person may be.
The men that set sail from Derry that worked on Mile 59 along the most dangerous condition of the Pennsylvania and Columbia Rail Road called Duffy’s Cut. The owner of the Rail Road, Philip Duffy, or the Sisters of Charity who cared for the men afflicted by Asiatic Cholera didn’t die or or become ill with the disease. Perhaps if the Health officials knew the cause of the disease they could have prevented the spread of the disease, alleviate the fears that the health care workers experienced during the pandemic, thus reducing the prejudices that the the general populace had about immigrants, the poor, the ill and those in prisons. This would have greatly changed the outcome of how the men at Duffy’s Cut perished, either because of symptomatic severe dehydration resulting in death for 60% of those afflicted or a murderous plot fuelled by prejudice towards immigrants. A fear of a contagion would result in a loss of financial gain by the Pennsylvania and Columbia Rail Road if the building of the rail road was delayed or scrapped.
Eileen Breen
October 25, 2012 at 9:05 pm
Thanks for the editing except one part. I wanted to emphasize that the College of Physicians and the Board of Health in Philadelphia in 1832 did not have a true understanding of the disease. They didn’t believe that it was a contagion. They dismissed that Cholera could be in the water. Not knowing how or why people got the disease they inflicted their fear upon the general populace that immigrants, the poor, ill, and unmoral people brought w/ them Cholera and were likely to spread the disease. There was already a fear among Americans that immigrants were taking the best jobs now they also had to worry about disease that they brought with them. The rail road owners saw a loss of profit if the rail road was not completed and acted on misconceptions and concerns of the medical community and the fears of the general public that immigrants were most likely to contact and spread the disease. This may have been the catalyst of why the laborers died not of disease but from a more sinister demise.
Don MacFarlane
October 26, 2012 at 7:44 pm
Reply from Frank Watson
I sent Frank a copy of what I had put together already,expecting him to blow a gasket but what I got back was this:
“Thanks — good stuff. Thanks for your work and just a few points. We actually recovered six bodies, and the fifth skeleton did indeed have a bullet in his skull (Janet Monge, a world-renowned forensic anthropologist at the University of Pennsylvania Museum, discovered the bullet through scans and x ray of the skull, and there us a bullet hole on the top of his skull). Also as per investigation, all the skulls of individuals recovered at Duffy’s Cut have signs of perimortem violence upon them; finally, the number 57 comes from the railroad itself (which would have no reason to lie to itself in its own internal report, while the press reported a number as low as eight. The official internal report from the Spring of 1833 gave a number as high as sixty men dead at Mile 59 and the official number of the dead at Duffy’s Cut was listed as 57 in the Pennsylvania Railroad file”.
It leaves more questions than answers but it is all grist to the mill for the fuller chapter.
Mary Cornell
October 27, 2012 at 4:47 am
Thanks Eileen. Am feeling much better tonight. My sign-on name is the same as my e-mail. I did receive the request via e-mail from Ancestry and once I click on the link, I am in like Flynn. I also found that on the Family Tree bar both trees, Prudence and John Stamp, are listed. So I suppose that for each tree, you have to list us as contributors before changes, etc can be made. BTW – Excellent job, Eileen. Really wonderful use of the family tree to keep track of the passengers.
Concerning FW’s reply, I have noticed that he never really gives us any new information. It is recycled info that is already been put out before. Seems to be some sort of cat-and-mouse game right now. As to this current info,the fact that there were 57 men listed in the railroad records does not necessarily mean that there are still 51 men buried under the tracks. The actual number can only be known when they are exhumed. It is also pretty cold hearted on the part of the railroad to lay the line knowing the men were buried there.
Some off-the-cuff ideas for the article-
As Ireland went into the 19th century, a perfect storm was brewing whose consequences would lead to the total devastation of an entire generation. The Act of Union of 1800 would be the forerunner. It was designed as a mutual trade agreement, but instead effectively placed Ireland into the role of the poor stepchild. The Act of Union accomplished what the government had been wanting, the removal of the poor farmers from their land in order to put in place the more profitable commercialization of Irish agriculture. The Irish agricultural economy of small farms and cottage industries could not compete with the larger more industrial cities of the North East and of Britain. Particularly vulnerable were the cottage industries. In particular, the weavers of Donagheady could not compete with the emerging linen industry that came into being during the awakening industrial revolution. With the resulting unemployment and hardships placed on the already poor Irish, emigration was to be the answer. Before 1840, nearly a million Irish had left their homeland to seek something better than what they had.
It was not just the poor and unskilled workers that left during this period. The skilled labourers and the disillusioned middle class saw greater opportunity outside of Ireland. So they too boarded ships for new lives elsewhere. The linen weavers saw opportunity in the emerging linen industry of the American industrial northeast. Many ended up in Philadelphia where they hoped they could find a better life than the one they knew existed in Ireland. In America, many would find little relief from the hardship that they had hoped to leave behind. Cholera had crossed the Atlantic with them;as had the prejudices and hatred of an unfair world. And in the summer of 1832, 57 men walked into the woods in Malvern, Pennsylvania, never to be heard from again.
And as for Ireland, what cholera didn’t take, the potato blight of ’47 would.
Don MacFarlane
October 27, 2012 at 8:18 am
I totally subscribe to the theory that there were dark dealings afoot at Duffy’s Cut and I have not the slightest shadow of doubt about that. My main reason for that has nothing to do with the ‘dig’ surprisingly, so Bill Watson needn’t get himself into a lather.
I am convinced by the writing of Professor John Osborne on the Philadelphia public health response to the disease outbreak of 1832
Also, by the Cholera Pamphlets
also by what is known about cholera today which is still rife in Third World countries.
What that boils down to (sorry about the pun!) is that
The likes of Bishop Henrick of Philadelphia subscribed to the demonisation of the disease as something sent by God as a scourge against the ungodly to bring them back to the path of righteousness.
Philadelphia prided itself as being well in control of the disease which had a 25% mortality at worst compared to NYC and Quebec which were very much worse.
Even 25% is probably too high as WHO statistics quote – 80% of infected people fight it off and it is asymptomatic; 80% of symptomatic cases make a full recovery and do not collapse; in olden times, deaths were often caused by doctors meddling and interfering with the process of natural recovery.
Distil that down (sorry, another pun) and you have a scenario of a squad of men in a backwood who were not notified to the authorities, at a time when Philadelphia would have ensured appropriate measures and at most 7 people would have died from cholera, especially with them being young fit men. Whatever number are still under the railtracks did not die from cholera, I am convinced.
Eileen Breen
October 27, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Mary, I like the part about the Act Of Union. Should we add there’s a dispute whether these men were fit or unfit for duty? You had said earlier they found evidence some of the men had Cholera. Also about how the religious community as Don quoted may have affected how one saw the immigrants. Like in Ireland the religious right was also trying to meddle in the immigrant affairs. I’m on page 3/5 on the John Stamp. All pages have a A and B side!. This must have been a huge ship?
Don MacFarlane
October 27, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Can you explain how the family tree works and how I get into it. All that I find showing is a solitary box showing Mother Prudence.
On the subject of the economic drivers for emigration post-Union, I don’t quite get that. From the description of the Manayunk linen mill in Philadelphia, the Murland linen mills in Castlewellan in County Down were of a similar size, employing over a thousand people. Why did our weavers not go there instead?
Mary Cornell
October 27, 2012 at 4:24 pm
Once on the Mother Prudence page, you will see a search bar in the upper right hand corner. Click on the down arrrow and you should see several options. Any one of those will get you to the list of passengers.
My guess as to why the workers did not seek work in Ireland goes back to the conditions of employment that existed in Ireland. Most of the workers, who were not Catholic, who crossed the Atlantic seem to be Presbyterian. And in Ireland, those of the Church of Ireland and the Church of England were given priority in the job market. If the mills already had thousands of workers employed, would there have been room for those who did not belong to the politically correct church? Combined with the economic depression created by the Act of Union, there would not have been many job available.
Don MacFarlane
October 25, 2012 at 8:56 am
Eagal an Galair – The Fear of Contagion
Time to start thinking about a feature article for the local newspapers – perhaps three times the length of what we have done already? I have all the names and addresses of the newspapers. The Gaelic title above is for the Donegal Democrat and Donegal News feature articles only.
I have enough material already to cover more than two thousand words but I need Eileen to do me a good paragraph on cholera which I have not looked at. Also, we need to summarise our research efforts and off-the-cuff ideas for another paragraph or two. That should bring it up to about three thousand words which would fill a page of a newspaper.
Don MacFarlane
October 25, 2012 at 12:44 pm
Absolutely, the weavers were dirt poor, just like the labourers. I believe they called themselves weavers because they grew up in families that were given bounty looms in 1796. Linen-weaving was still a cottage industry and it supplemented the family income. They would go wherever the money took them. Irish weavers were very resistant to modernisation and they would have nothing to do with power looms, so they would likely have been out of their depth in the Lancashire mills. They were so anti-power looms (they took away jobs) that their resistance brought down the Murland factories in Castlewellan in County Down, at the expense of a thousand jobs.
I have facebooked Lindel Buckley (she is a Donegal expert) to cast her eye over whatever we produce.
Don MacFarlane
October 26, 2012 at 3:26 pm
1911 Census Donegal
I find from the 1911 Census that most of these waxwings have not moved far off their perch. In brackets are additional possibilities based upon Griffiths.
Devine – Killymasny (Pettigoe, Lifford)
Ewing – Manorcunningham
Doak – Cranford
Patchell – Ballyshannon (Kilbarron)
Peoples – Kilmacrenan, St Johnstone (Conwal)
McDonagh – Ballyshannon (Moville, Inver)
Weir – Lifford (Clonleigh)
Sproule – Lifford, Glenties
Hood – Lifford
McBrearty – Dunkineely (Killybegs)
McHenry – Greencastle
Harold – Moville, Gleneely (Letterkenny)
Nee – Corawaddy, Letterkenny
Aiken – Glenalla
Don MacFarlane
October 25, 2012 at 6:12 am
According to Denis O’Hearn who wrote the chapter ‘Ireland in the Atlantic Economy’, “By 1838, there were forty spinning mills in Ireland but even as factory spinning became routine mechanisation of linen weaving lagged behind. Power looms were used in Scotland as early as 1810 but were barely known in Ireland until after 1850”.
The gist of his chapter goes on to say that weavers were little better than labourers as their wages were so poor and chronic poverty was the norm amongst them, whether in the country or in the town. Likewise, flax was bought dirt cheap. Most ordinary Irish people were basically used as slave labour – mainly because the population explosion meant workers could be paid peanuts. England would not allow fair trade out of Ireland either, so as to feed their Industrial Revolution so lauded in the recent Olympics Opening Ceremony – have they learnt nothing! England had a virtually total monopoly over Irish goods and Ireland had become an economic colony rather than a ‘virtual’ colony. Even after the Act of Union nothing had changed nothing for the better and, in other words, the Irish had been hoodwinked.
It looks like by 1832, thirty years after the Union, realisation was beginning to sink in that nothing had changed for the better despite all the hard graft. Countryfolk, Protestant and Catholic, started to emigrate in droves, even before the calamity of the cholera epidemic and the even greater calamity of the Famines.
Don MacFarlane
October 25, 2012 at 6:28 am
Topographical Dictionary of Ireland 1837
‘There is an extensive mill for spinning linen-yarn, erected in 1829, and the first for fine yarns ever established in Ireland; it is worked by steam and water power, and lighted with gas made on the premises; another is in course of erection on a very large scale, to be propelled by a water wheel 50 feet in diameter and 10 feet on the face. In these several establishments more than 500 persons are constantly employed. The manufacture of linen is also extensively carried on by Mr. J. Murland and Mr. Steel, the former employing 450 and the latter 300 persons. There are also some large corn-mills, and mills for dressing flax. The market is on Monday, and is amply supplied with provisions and pedlery, and large quantities of brown linen and linen-yarn are brought for sale every market day. Fairs are held on the first of February, May, June, and September, the 13th of November, and the Tuesday before Christmas’
This excerpt seems to suggest that Denis O’Hearn’s thesis is little better than a political diatribe and that the Northern Irish economy and condition of country folk was in fact in pretty good shape.
For more on the state of the linen-based Irish economy of those times see
http://www.irishlinenmills.com/Mills/companies.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/ashorthistory/archive/intro179.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/ashorthistory/archive/intro180.shtml
celticknot226
October 22, 2012 at 12:16 pm
Ancestry.com: Passenger lists, Passports, UK incoming, view all in catalog., Census, ship records, church, dockets, newspapers, cemetery records and findagrave.com can access from this site. Philip Duffy’s cemetery photo is here but I can’t find the stone. Also there is a learning center and a handwriting discussion. They also have tutorials on-line on the ancestry.com learning center. You can also print or send records to your email or someone else. At the bottom right corner of the page you can change which country you’re looking at. It’s easier to change this when looking for US or UK records. It seems to take less time searching rather than looking at US records from the US page.
I was thinking we could put up a message on the message boards of our research interests saying we’re looking for certain people or make a family tree, listing members from each ship. Sometimes people contact you if they have a similar name or research interest. I found a few distant cousins I didn’t know I had when they found me.
Don MacFarlane
October 23, 2012 at 7:41 am
This is where you uncover an area of weakness of mine, like Twitter and Facebook which are foreign languages to me. How do you get into the Family Tree – enter Mother as First Name and Prudence as Surname?
Best Bets for Prudence from Donegal (in order of TOTE):
Anthony McDonagh – Inishowen
James Ball (Bell) – Inishowen
Richard Weir – Clonleigh (Lifford)
David Peoples – Letterkenny
Charles Gibson – Inishowen
Don MacFarlane
October 23, 2012 at 8:16 am
Best Bets for Prudence from Tyrone (in order of TOTE):
John, James and Andrew Leitch – Ardstraw
James Steel – Cookstown
Joseph Keys – Clogher, Ardstraw or Donaghedy
These are all very good bets as their names are almost unique in Tyrone and their places of origin are few in number according to Griffiths. We should concentrate on these. Together with the Donegal and Derry names but not Kelly (fourteen in total) there is no need to extend the number on the good ship Prudence any further. There is uniquely an 1831 Derry Census and the Derry names (by modern placenames) most likely they come from are:
http://www.billmacafee.com/1831census
Ewing (Maghera)
Davis (Limavady or Derry City)
Cole (Derry City)
Gilfillan (Faughanvale)
Cowan (Faughanvale)
Owens (Cumber)
Incidentally, most if not all of the Derry names are Protestant.
Don MacFarlane
October 23, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Donegal Supporters of Act of Union 1800
Most of the supporters of the Act of Union can be presumed to be either Dissenters, meaning Protestants who were not of the Established Church, or Catholics, on the basis of a backlash against the AngloIrish Ascendancy. The List may be the best, apart from Griffiths, that Donegal can provide for the early 1800s as the Censuses were destroyed. The names below are just a small sample taken from the Ship Manifests.
Ball – Kilmacrenan, Aughnish, Clonleigh
Callan – Aughnish, Templecarn, Clonca etc
Ewing – Urney, Donaghmore, Clonmany, Convoy,Innishkeel, Kilbarron
Patchell – Raphoe
Peoples – Burt, Leck
Weir – Clonleigh, Kilbarron
Elliott – Clonmany, Leck, Convoy, Burt, Conwal
Gregg – Convoy
McCahill – Killaghtee, Raphoe, Clonmany
McClay – Stranorlar
Hood – Inver, Burt
Elder – Taughboyne, Clonca
McBrearty – Clonmany, Inver, Killybegs
Ferguson – Donaghmore, Burt, Convoy
Griffin – Donaghmore
Smullan – Leck
Snodgrass – Leck
Risk – Lifford
Greer – Convoy
Leckey – Clonleigh, Convoy, Killygarvan
Don MacFarlane
October 23, 2012 at 7:33 pm
Flaxgrowers List Donegal 1796
Additional source for pinpointing origins of particular relevance in relation to emigrants who described themselves as weavers and done at the same time as the Petitioners for Union.
The question arises whether Ulster people (remembering that Donegal was and remains part of Ulster, though no longer part of Northern Ireland) might have been put in a particular double-bind. Flaxgrowere, Protestant or Catholic, by petitioning for Union with Britain, could or perhaps should have had one eye on expected economic advantage for them in lowering of trade barriers and tarriffs. But, if so, this was in vain and their not signing (very few if any of these flaxgrowers voted for Union) made no difference to the spectre of the Famines and the banishing of their children who left in droves for America and elsewhere.
Ball – Clonleigh
Ewing – Donaghmore, Conwal, Templemore
Patchell – Conwal, Clonca
Peoples – Kilmacrenan, Tully, Conwal, Leck.
Weir – Desertegny, Templemore
Elliott – Donaghmore, Taughboyne etc
Gregg – Rye, Kilmacrenan
Gregory – Stranorlar, Drumhone
McCahill – Donegal Town
McClay – Conwal, Stranorlar
Hood – Aghanunshin, All Saints, Leck
Elder – Templemore etc
McBrearty – Urney, Kilcar
Ferguson – Kilmacrenan etc
Griffin – Clondavaddog
Smullen – Raphoe
Snodgrass – Donaghmore, Raphoe
Risk – Fahan, Templemore
McPhelim – Kilbarron
Greer – Leck etc
Leckey – Donaghmore, Rye
Montgomery – Rye
Doak*- Taughboyne etc
Skiltoar – Raphoe
Don MacFarlane
October 24, 2012 at 8:23 am
Civil Parishes of Donegal
The Civil Parishes of Donegal are formed into Parishes called Inishowen, Raphoe, Kilmacrennan, Tirhugh, Banagh and Boylagh. The surnames can be banded according to Barony, to overcome where they appear to be too dispersed to allow for easy identification. Also, those people from Boylagh were more likely to be monoglot Gaelic speakers, therefore their names are more likely to be got wrong and also their communities are likely to be more closed, even to this day. Everyone knew every one else, probably still do. Also, they were hit hard by the famine. A story in their local paper, if there were any emigrants from there, could produce results.
As well as possibly being monoglot Gaelic speakers or basic and poor speakers of English, they would have found the Derry and Tyrone people to be very different and strange. Also, invariably they would have been Catholic and would have encountered the greatest degree of prejudice in the US for what they were – poor, dirty, often shoeless, non-English-speaking Catholic Irishmen.
Any emigrants from those parishes (where John Ruddy came from) would be worth prioritising – Tullaghobegley, Templecrone, Innishkeel, Lettermacaward. Likewise, other parishes along the west coast could be included – Clonca, Clonmany, Clondavaddog, Mevagh,Clondahorky,Raymunterdoney, Glencolumbkille.
On the other hand, Donegal men from the Laggan in the Raphoe and East Kilmacrenan Baronies, the more fertile areas closest to Letterkenny, would be English-speaking, often Protestant, better educated and weavers rather than labourers. Those parishes would be – Convoy, Conwal, Aghanunshin, Aughnish, Leck, Clonleigh, Taughboyne, All Saints, Moville, Fahan, Stranorlar.
Don MacFarlane
October 24, 2012 at 11:28 am
Looking at this a bit deeper, I think I may have come to a rather sad realisation. Almost all of the signatories in Donegal to the Petition for the Act of Union with Britain were from the flaxgrowing, more Protestant, parts of Donegal. Clearly these Donegal men didn’t give a damn about the opinions of their Catholic, more impoverished, fellow Donegal men from the hinterlands. Either that or they sought their opinions and none of the Donegal men of native Irish stock could or would sign. The story thickens!
Don MacFarlane
October 24, 2012 at 6:29 pm
Having a quick scan at the Donegal Flaxgrowers List, it seems to be the same sorry story. Very few of the flaxgrowers ergo weavers came from the more western and backward parts of Donegal (about ten per cent). Therefore this notion that the Watsons purvey in their book of semi-illiterate, part-civilised, monoglot Irishmen appears to be simply not true. I think a much more accurate picture needs to be painted of who these young men were and what life and times was like before they left for America. Also, I have read that the cholera epidemic which claimed 50,000 lives in Ireland hit those shores in June 1832. The question arises whether these men left in a blind panic while the going was good. I think that unlikely as one would expect the better-off populace to be represented on these ships, plus much more in the way of family units. In short, the statistics of the two lists, Union Petition and Flaxgrowers, appear to hide a story that has perhaps not been told. Our young men just happen to be a microcosm of a much bigger picture.
I am going to leave Donegal now and do a similar exercise in Derry and Tyrone to see if the story differs.
Eileen Breen
October 24, 2012 at 8:50 pm
Where do you find the history about the flax growers and the Act of Union from newspapers or are you seeing this as a result of how they voted in certain elections? Even if they didn’t read they certain seem to have been aware of what was happening in their country. It seems if they wanted to be knowledgeable about politics they wouldn’t want to leave or leave but still be concerned about their families, friends and countrymen and come to the US so they could help out back at home by sending money back. I don’t think they left and that was the end of that.This would be interesting to put in your article for your book. Did the first article go out already? When we went to Ireland I remember seeing museums having exhibitions about Act Of Union both in Belfast and in Dublin.
Eileen Breen
October 26, 2012 at 12:19 am
If the Donegal Flax growers were in line with England’s greed to build a linen industry in England and take it away from Ireland why did they purchase flax from Donegal? Was it because of the cheap labor? Why didn’t the Donegal growers see this? Did they sell their votes for Act of Union in hopes England would buy flax from them, thus keeping part of the linen trade in Ireland. From the article Ireland was getting fed up with England edging Ireland out of the linen industry, placing regulations on the weavers and forcing them to modernize.
The John Stamp had more single laborers whereas the Prudence had more family groups with laborers and weavers and one gentleman.
Mary Cornell
October 23, 2012 at 6:12 pm
Just in case you still can’t get in Prudence Family Tree. I had the same problem last night getting into the family tree. I found myself just wandering around the site with 8,000 other family trees containing the name Prudence in them!! But once I got the e-mail from Ancestry and clicked on view Prudence Family Tree, it is always there when I log onto the site. Top right has a search bar, click on down arrow and list will come up. Click on it, and you’re in. What should we be adding or changing besides the date of death that is listed as 1832? All info or specifics?
BTW- Looked into ballistics and found that the entry wound from a bullet is fairly clean and not much bigger than the bullet. It is the exit wound that will completely blow apart the body. Not sure if this holds true with the musket exit wound since a musket gun did not have the same fire power as later weapons. Surmising that the large wounds on the back of the heads of the victims were most likely not caused from a gun. If so, there would be an entry wound in the front of the skull.
Eileen Breen
October 23, 2012 at 8:37 pm
I put in the passenger list for the Prudence. Should have been easy but it kept switching family trees on me. I put an * next to the last name for those who were laborers. There are 30 in all. Other people are farmers woman (wives, spinsters) and a few children. and 1 gentleman. I also added the alternate birth places for those you added. Do you want to add the act of Union info? Also Mary and Don I need you sign on for ancestry so I can invite you to the tree, then you can be a contributor or you can look up my name and you should see the Prudence tree. I didn’t put the names under children b/c all the last names are different. On the bar on the right scroll to the bottom: see all names. On the top is a alphabet and you can go through the names by letter or just scroll through the list of names.
Don MacFarlane
October 25, 2012 at 7:18 am
From Peter and James Murname
“The peasant weaver in Ireland might be his own bleacher. He could weave two or three webs during the winter months and he and his family would bleach it themselves. The process took 6 months to complete – April to September – that part of the season when labor was most required on the farm. It required continuous attention and was primitive and disgusting. The cloth was given at least twelve boilings in a witch’s brew of cow’s urine, solutions of cow dung, buttermilk, potash, bran, salt and other ingredients depending on the weaver’s whim. Between each boiling, the contaminated bleaching solution was rinsed out in the nearest dam or stream. The cloth was then spread on grass to dry, after which it was again watered and dried. The boiling process was then repeated. At the end of all the boilings, the cloth was beetled by hammering on a flat stone with a wooden mallet or beetle. Only a minority of weavers bleached their own linen as the cloth was generally sold in the unbleached condition and it was left to the purchaser to arrange bleaching”.
celticknot226
October 21, 2012 at 1:42 pm
FFT: Western Europeans from Celtic ancestry are 70- 80% Type O. Eastern Europe has a lesser percentage. Western Europe has higher percentage of Blood Types A and O with Rh Factor Negative. There are some far out theories why someone has Rh Factor that is negative including some creationist views that they are descendents from the first celestial astronauts? Hmmmm… The medical folks feel Rh factor helps to move O2 and CO2 through the cells easier in people who have the negative Rh Factor. So maybe a good percentage of our men had type O blood and so they had no resistance to Cholera and if they had not been exposed to it before like when the American Indians were exposed to Small Pox by the Europeans heading out west in US.
“I’m not a pessimist but an optimist with experience”!
Don MacFarlane
October 21, 2012 at 10:40 am
I have completed the short article which runs to exactly one thousand words and it is posted on the Duffys Cut page on the celtdomain.com site, the last entry on the page. See what you think. The bigger essay of 9-12,000 words for my book can expand on cholera or anything else. If satisfactoy, I will forward the article to William Roulston tomorrow.
I am not concerned with the feelings of the Watson brothers. I have doffed my cap at them in the article and if they consider themselves to be scientists in the search of new knowledge they should be familiar with Karl Popper’s tests of refutability and verifiability. Anything else is fairy stories.
Mary Cornell
October 22, 2012 at 4:42 am
I admit that I am guilty of ‘bashing’ the Watsons, but the sweeping generalizations and conclusions by the Watsons bothered my sense of historical accuracy. What appears to be historical guessing is now considered historical fact by many. Historians are not immune from questioning and doubt. Part of the scientific method, if I remember correctly, is to take apart what is presented and try to disprove its accuracy. If the same conclusion is reached, then so much the better. Don’s editing skill has done well to limit my appearance of bashing and he has been more than gracious in his approach toward the Watsons. If we are going to take on this task, I think that it must be all or nothing. The article is more than satisfactory. I do not see any disrespect shown to the Watsons and valid questions were raised concerning the findings. Hopefully, it will draw further interest from others.
A final thought – Don, earlier you stated that you do not have ‘flair’ when in actuality you have a great deal of flair that you choose to hide for some reason. You have a wicked sense of humor and a keen sense of irony. You simply need to trust in your ability and let them show, as necessary, in your writings.
Don MacFarlane
October 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Reply from Frank Watson
My brother forwarded your latest email to me. This is certainly a creative way to approach the search for these men and it compliments what we have been doing here. We are still hoping for the DNA match on the first man whom we believe may be John Ruddy, the 18 year old with the rare genetic dental anomaly, and we have put out feelers in Donegal and elsewhere for any information on Ruddy family members who may still have this anomaly. The rarity of certain names can certainly help (pardon the pun).
That was the difficulty with tracing Philip Duffy — I’ll be doing the piece on Duffy for our forthcoming book. Duffy’s sons all died off with no offspring, and at least one of his daughters died a spinster, after taking care of her younger brothers! (those are the twin brothers Francis and Edward). We had no one living to trace back to Duffy — but we are hoping a relative through the female line might pop up.
If you wouldn’t mind, could you CC me on any updates? I’d appreciate that as I am still working side-angles in the search on this end. Thanks! Wishing you continued best wishes in your research.
Don MacFarlane
October 22, 2012 at 6:14 pm
The Wall Street Journal
Their piece is also sceptical of the ‘leap’ the Watsons have made regarding wholesale murder. It is all reminiscent of the definition of a statistician – ‘someone who can jump directly from a set of premature assumptions to an unwarranted conclusion’, or is it the other way round?
celticknot226
October 20, 2012 at 12:59 pm
No the article didn’t say. I’m thinking that woman elderly and children are more likely to experience the effects of fluid loss from the body. Infants have a higher fluid ratio in their bodies and are high risk for dehydration when Cholera causes the intestines to release a large volume and frequent loss of fluids and the elderly have less protein and fat stores as well as many elder patients don’t eat a balanced diet so their overall health may be poor putting them further at risk to survive this infection. They also may taken in less fluids than a healthy adult and may have less fluids in their body before the Cholera. Elders are more prone to dehydration especially during illness. The cholera affects the bowel so that the intestines can’t hold onto the fluid. Dehydration is rapid and deadly in 60% of the cases. Often you can see pieces of the intestines in the milky white stool. The more you read about it- it’s a terrible disease that can be prevented. This still occurs in third world countries secondary to poor sanitation and lack of clean drinking water. There were over 10,000 cases in Haiti in 2012 after the earthquake. The men at Duffy’s Cut were healthy. In the Watson’s book they stated that the amount of Cholera bacteria in the water was in the millions.
Mary Cornell
October 20, 2012 at 5:42 pm
I agree totally that it is such an awful disease. As I was reading your response, which your conclusions are probably spot on, I started thinking also that maybe when the effects of the dehydration set in, would a person drink more water? Even knowing the consequences of drinking the water, the thirst would be maddening. It would also hasten their deaths. BTW Does the Watson book say how they came to know the figures of bacteria in the water? Was the scientific and medical community advanced enough to know that figure in 1832? Surely, there weren’t any water samples still around for the Watson’s to test.
celticknot226
October 20, 2012 at 11:50 pm
I think we need to be careful with disputing everything the Watsons and their team has uncovered. There was a lot of time spent in libraries looking into records, for historical and statistics on the cholera as well as some interesting personal diaries from inhabitants of Philadelphia. The lack of records does not prove anything but does raise suspicions. The Watson team found records that do exist but there are no remnants of these records in Philadelphia or neighboring towns in regards to the men at Duffy’s Cut.
Also the bullet holes in the skulls also raises a few flags. I think our article shouldn’t bash the Watson team but look at where there may be possible transcription errors on immigration records. Also there are few records from 1830-1860 in Ireland. If there are records there’s little information on them. As time went on better record with more details about an ancestor were recorded. In 1830s medicine was at its infancy and the physicians were learning about disease and prevention just like we are today. I don’t think we need to discount everything in this book.
The article should focus in a positive way that the names may not be correct, secondary to transcription errors, lack of information not found on immigration or personal histories and a suspicion that some records may have been destroyed by fire or by someone attempting to hide what happened in Duffy’s Cut. But what we have are health statistics on Cholera, how it may have travelled from place to place, prevention of the disease, how physicians based their knowledge of the disease at the time how to treat the disease. We also have personal histories of the thoughts and fears of the people at the time. Remember when HIV first started appearing around the world. People panicked and prejudice was rampant towards those afflicted with the disease just like in Duffy’s Cut. I think trying to find the true names of the men of this sad story is a noble deed but let’s not burn our bridges before we cross them.
celticknot226
October 21, 2012 at 12:01 am
I haven’t found this passage again but there are plenty cases in the world where Cholera has afflicted so many healthy and those who are of poor health where this disease was studied and troops are on the ground helping those with the disease and educating its prevention. The bigger issue is why we are still dealing with it. Countries like US and Britain need to continue to go to places like Haiti and Africa and make sure people have access to clean water. In the US we just turn on the tap and don’t think about it. In third world countries they don’t have this luxury. They don’t have stoves to boil the water. They use a sari folded eight times and pass the water through the material which acts like a filter. If the mother doesn’t properly wash this garment and then holds her child she risks reinfecting her child to the disease. People are in the communities educating the mothers about diseases we take for granted.
celticknot226
October 21, 2012 at 2:11 am
You would probably want to drink more water but wouldn’t be able to hold it down. People loose about four liters a fluid per day. Also if they drank water from the infected stream they would be adding insult to injury. The cure back then was whisky ( with or withut the e!), epsom salts which I think would make you more dehydrated, opium which would help with spasms in the colon. Today they use IV and oral hydration and antibiotics which they didn’t have back then. They didn’t know water was the culprit until 1852. They used fresh water in better neighborhoods after the pandemic in 1832 in Philadelphia. Now we have chlorinated water. I read in the Watson’s book Edgar Allan Poe was in Philadelphia in 1832 and wrote about people being buried alive. In late stages of cholera called the cold stage people looked dead but sometimes woke up. So they attached a bell inside the coffin so if this happened a person could ring for help! It was called a “dead- ringer”. Poe wrote about it in the story The Fall Of The House Of Usher.
Mary Cornell
October 20, 2012 at 6:23 am
I found something interesting while looking into the bold print names that were posted earlier. I actually could not find any of them except maybe John Doak, but with wrong ages. What I did find in the 1850 Census were two Irish John Ruddys in the right age range of our John Stamp passenger, + or – one year. They were in Allegheny and Philadelphia. What intrigues me is what kind of investigation did the Watson’s do? Did the inquiries from the Ruddy family in NI come first, therefore no further investigation? Chicken or the egg?
celticknot226
October 19, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Hi! Glad your feeling better!. There is another Irish Rail Road saga in 1850 in Funk’s Grove, Ill where Irish workers died of Cholera. An article by Rory O’Hanlon from The Irish Echo did a story about it.
I was looking at Professor Watson’s book and the photos of the clay pipes that were found. I think he may have misidentified the maker of the pipes. I found on line some did research on clay pipes found at archeology dig sites in Australia. I wrote to them about these pipes but I have not heard from them. The pipes have the markings “Davidson”, “White” “T.D”. and “Glagow”, “Derry”. Davidson produced pipes exclusively for export. Pipes would be sold by the cases. The pipes were made to be broken when the end of the stem was damaged.
I like the title of your book. But what if you included somewhere about identity. I saw a program about immigrants the other day. Men were taken off the ships by force by unscrupulous agents and forced to work.
I’m still confused about Cholera. I read that only shellfish and plankton get Cholera, animals do not as a rule. However it said that the waste from animals in the water was believed to cause it. I also read that coastal cholera was almost always associated w/ fertilizer causing an overgrowth of phosphates (in cleaning products) and nutrients in the water that the plankton and shellfish feed upon. I saw a photo on line where large areas in the ocean have this infected plankton like red tide. Also comes in other colors and is in fresh water as well as salt water. I was thinking that the people along the coasts of many countries treated their sewage w/ lime like they do on farms to cut down on the odor. This gets into the ocean and the ships carry the infected plankton across the shipping lines on the bottom of their boats. Before you know it it gets washed ashore and into the smaller waterways. In Philadelphia they had no way to get rid of sewage except to put it into the water, then all the mills dumped everything from A-Z in the canals that are carried out to the oceans. What a mess! People w/ Type O Blood are more likely to get Cholera as well as woman, children and the elderly. It often occurs in the rainy season. In Philadelphia in 1832 they only talked about the excessive heat. Perhaps the humidity was a factor.
Possible title for this article “Fear Of Contagion” maybe something could be added about identities of the men and how Duffy cut their lives short?
Thanks for the nice things you both said, you two are awesome too!:)
Don MacFarlane
October 19, 2012 at 3:08 pm
I like that title, with a small amendment, ‘The Fear of Contagion’. Also, I can change the subtitle only for the book. Which header did you like – The Sea is Wide or New Celts from Old Horizons? One or other will have to go to accommodate a different subtitle.
Some more news which will require you both to get your skates on! I met with Dr William Roulston and he has invited for us (meaning you and Mary) to supply him with a 1000-word essay, to be with him within the next four weeks, for inclusion in a periodical he edits for the Ulster Historical Foundation which has a readership of around 1600 members. That should get a bit of a buzz going and hopefully throw up some answers with regards to identities. As per my earlier post today, I suggest we concentrate on the group of more unusual names I collected. Put into the mix anything and everything to be appropriate and I will also advise the Watsons that this thing is gathering momentum. Dr Roulston, as an experienced genealogist, confirms as expected that he would never dream of making such sweeping statements on such a paucity of evidence, that all these men were murdered, especially without knowing who they were.
Don MacFarlane
October 18, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Transcription Errors
Could some kind soul offer to transcribe correctly these entries for the ship Ontario, for Philadelphia 1832? The dubious bits are in italics.
16 20 Hugh Gallagher Carpenter Prossgear
26 25 James McCaffrey Farmer Pichens
27 25 Bernard Bradley Farmer Pichens
28 27 William Donaghey Farmer Pichens
29 23 David Pollock Carpenter Pichens
30 25 John Pollock Farmer Pichens
31 26 Charles Cusson Farmer Pichens
53 24 Tim McBrearty Labourer Castlefinn
62 26 James McHenry Farmer Knocken
75 28 Robt Pollock Farmer Carnowen
78 24 John Reid Farmer Ballyhall
80 31 John Aiken Weaver Ballyhall
93 20 John McKeown Farmer Ballyhall
94 26 Jane Johnston Teacher Ballyhall
96 22 James Donnell Farmer Bookbillagh
97 18 James McGuire Farmer Bookbillagh
98 18 Peter Neilson Farmer Ballybofey
99 23 John Pooglen Farmer Ballybofey
Mary Cornell
October 18, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Here goes-
16 Rossgeer Rossgeer, Drumleene
26-31 Prehen Prehen, Londonderry
53 Castlefinn (?) There is a Castlefinn in Donegal
62 Knocken Definitely Knocken, Knocken (Cairn) Co. Dublin, and Co. Carlow
75 Carnowen Carnowen, Donaghmore, Raphoe
78, 80,93,94 Ballyhall located a Ballyhall, Galway
96-97 Bookbillagh (?) No idea as to this one
98 Nelson
99 Boylen
Don MacFarlane
October 18, 2012 at 11:06 pm
Hi Mary
Thanks for that. The conclusion I would draw is that:
Prehen could very well be correct.
Knocken and Ballyhall are doubtful as they would travel out of Cobh rather than Derry because of distance.
The Ballyhall ones could be from Clonfeacle in County Tyrone – I base this on name clusters, these names are all to be found there but not elsewhere.
Boylen is probably plain Boyle. I have noticed a little flourish at the end of an e before which can be quite misleading.
The purpose of the exercise is to narrow down searches to a clean, correctly transcribed but less common group of names so as to furnish a control group to measure against the supposed Cut dead. If some of these come on clusters from same parishes, so much the better rather than have too much of a scatter.
Mary Cornell
October 19, 2012 at 5:14 am
I am wondering if we should discount anything. I went back and checked Immigrant Ships list for 1832 and could not find any ships coming into port from Cobh. If this is true, and not just a clerical misstep, different ports of departure would be used in order to come to the US. Another possibility could be a great deal of internal migration going on in Ireland. A narrow control group does help our search, but we should resist the urge ‘to make it fit.’ We may run the risk of repeating the Watson’s mistakes.
Don MacFarlane
October 19, 2012 at 6:43 am
I wrote a rather elaborate reply which disappeared into the ether (you have had the same experience yourself, as did Winnie) but it pains me to have to do it all over again. Therefore, I think we should concentrate first of all on waxwings rather than house sparrows, the more distinctive names first, irrespective of which boat they came off in 1832? The rarer specimens, according to Griffiths, are in bold, Protestants are asterisked
John Stamp – William Devine, Robert Ewing*, John Ruddy, David Patchell*, Samuel Forbes*, James Devaney, Hugh Foster*, John Doak*, Adam Diamond
Asia – Robert Arthur, James Barton*, Edward Blackwell*, James Bryan*, Joseph Cochrane, Edward Edgar*, Andrew Fergie*, John Fowler*, Hemry McFadden, Arthur McQuade, William Menagh, James Vance*, James Snodgrass*, Thomas Southwell*, William Stringer.
Prudence – David Peoples*, Stewart Davis*, William Cole, John Gilfilland*, Richard Weir*.
Ontario – James Sproule*, Francis Hood, Tim McBrearty, James McHenry, Connell Harold, Daniel Nee, John McQuigg, John Aiken*.
If that small sample draws a blank, the likelihood is that the Watsons’ theory is full of holes.
celticknot226
October 21, 2012 at 11:12 pm
FFT: Who says these men just got off the boat and into Duffy’s hands. Could they have come earlier and worked on another part of the rail road. Also we know nothing of the agent who brought them from the boat to the work site.
names: Devine (O’Devaney) may come from Down, and Galway. Could Forbes be Forde- Galway and Leitrim. Diamond (O’Dimond) from Derry.
Arthur from Limerick. Brian (O’Brian from Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford), McFadden fro Donnegal.
McHenry (O’Henry- Galway and Tyrone, Harold (Dublin and Limerick), Nee (O’Nee from Limerick), McQuigg (O’ Quigley from Mayo),
The other names I didn’t see on the map
I found these names on Collins Irish Family Names Map , Arms And Mediaval Locations (names in Ireland to late 1700’s)
Eileen Breen
October 14, 2012 at 3:25 pm
FFT: If the men lived in the shack in Malvern in the woods- how did all 57 men live in a one-room building? They had to have either lived in a rooming house somewhere. Did they all work on the same day and sleep under tents? Also I read that John Ruddy had gum disease but no cavities because he was poor, couldn’t afford sugar and only ate potatoes! How pray tell did they find this out when after 170 years there are only bones? From a most basic science class you learn that starch converts to sugar in the mouth. So if a potato is a starch then this basic sugar was most likely present in his mouth. The dentist said he probably didn’t brush his teeth daily secondary to the gum disease. I can also see that maybe gums would be present if the bodies were preserved in a bog or constantly cold area. In PA there is extreme heat and cold as well as the four seasons and all types of weather. I just don’t see it. As Mary said maybe I watched too many CSI shows! In the Survey Ordinace for County Londonderry food was not of the best quality in 1830s but grains and lower-quality meat was available. Also who says John Ruddy was so poor? Do we have any proof of his family. Was he better or worse off than others from Donegal. If Donegal was where they had the Clearances was he part of this? In the National Museum in Ireland they showed how people made their living. There were means to make a living as a laborer from building homes, crafts, clearing land. What if we looked at John Ruddy and what his life might have been like in Donegal as part of the article?
Don MacFarlane
October 16, 2012 at 7:28 am
I am back in the saddle again as I have been released from hospital. I had an attack of upper abdominal pain radiating to the chest and shoulder blades that got me landed into coronary care, but I am fine now. As a retired medic I know what to look out for to avoid a repetition, hopefully. Thanks for the solicitations and back to business!
I think the focus of the chapter should not to be to rewrite what the Watsons have written already, except where assumptions can definitely be called into question, of which there are quite a few (Mary would have a more robust phrase for that!). Their lazy thinking did not stop at the conclusion and there are many points in between. I am hoping that Liz Rushen will do likewise for the ‘Bussorah Merchant’ chapter about Tasmania.
I will ask William Roulston, if I see him on Friday, if a heavy session or two by me in PRONI could be productive in turning up the identity of some of these unfortunates. I may also get the BBC interested as I have a contact there, Carole O’Kane (Producer), who was considering doing a programme on the ‘Adam Lodge’ but this story has more legs on it.
PS I have since checked Grenham’s book on ‘Tracing Your Irish Ancestors’ and there is nothing in PRONI that early. Therefore, sources that lead nowhere so far in seeking identities of these men are 1. Irish BDMs (nonexistent) 2. American BDMs (unreliable?) 3. American Naturalization Petitions (too dispersed) 4. PRONI records (nonexistent). The only productive sources so far are Griffiths Evaluation and US-bound Shipping Lists.
Mary Cornell
October 17, 2012 at 6:03 am
Glad you are feeling better, but talk about not keeping a good man down. Must be the fastest recovery ever. Don’t be surprised when the wife takes your ipad away.
I agree that we are dealing with much darker themes. Should this be a separate book? with ties to the original. These new stories that we are doing do not seem to fit in with any of the original chapters. That would give us a little more time to research or maybe even find a few more stories that fit this darker theme.
Eileen has some brilliant observations on some of the ‘facts’ that we have. With no gums present how did they know there was gum disease? Tents are a likely probability, a bunkhouse type building wouldn’t be feasible for the railroad, as the men would need to be mobile for each stretch of railroad being laid. Have we decided whether or not we need to look into the married men who could have also been working on the ‘Cut.’
I have also been wondering why Philadelphia was the chosen port for these particular immigrants in the summer of 1832. New York was the more preferred port.
Don MacFarlane
October 17, 2012 at 7:25 am
Liz Rushen will not have her chapter ready till early next year and I am happy to wait. The book meanwhile is being downloaded by a new reader as an ebook at least once per day. You will notice that the book is in sections by types of identity – in this case perhaps alienated – that are loosely connected to the dynamic identity grid.
As John MacLean, a Canadian emigrant wrote around 1832:
English Translation from Gaelic original:
‘I’m all alone in this gloomy woodland
My mind is troubled and I sing no song
Against all Nature I took this place here
Native wit from my mind has gone.
This is a country hard and cruel
They do not know who journey still
Evil the yarns of the smooth-tongued coaxers
Who brought us here against our will.
I must keep digging to win a bare living
To hold those threatening woods at bay
My strength alone serves till I reach manhood
And I may fail before that day”
These dark stories can be considered as just another facet that continues even to this day. The circumstances of the Duffy Cut railworkers were not so different then to the modern-day Chinese Morecambe Bay cockle-gatherers or to trafficked Balkan sex-workers and those of the passengers on the Bussorah Merchant were like those of Polish migrants in modern Ireland – tolerated until they were perceived as a threat because of their soaking up hard-to-find jobs. The circumstances of the Hairy Man, apart from the rescue part of it, are just another illustration of separation and loss, much as what happened on a much bigger scale for the families of the deported Irish convicts.
I agree with your comments about Eileen with regards to her strengths, as I had already noted. She has a very lively intellectual curiosity, an admirable capacity for inductive reasoning and an ability to find new insights. I think I am in danger of making her blush here! As far as married men, there may be some mileage in that if we are up a blind alley as spouses and children should be on record as orphans and widows perhaps?
Mary Cornell
October 17, 2012 at 5:51 pm
I agree that the stories fit in the categories of the identity grid, but I think the tone and mood of the newer ones is different. They seem to be more intense examples of tragic consequences of the categories and they would stand alone, separate from the book. BTW, are people contributing to Children in Crossfire, or are they defeating the purpose by only downloading?
Right now, as we search for facts, I have three separate ideas that run through my head. Duffy’s Cut, John Ruddy and others, and the Donagheady weavers. All that could fit under a subtitle of The Summer of 1832. Should we consider them all and handle them in different sections of a single chapter or are they better handled in three separate chapters? Or do we make the choice and choose one only?
I think I may have found the reason why the weavers were arriving in Philadelphia. There was a large textile industry emerging outside of Philadelphia in Manayunk, PA. The population more than doubled from 1827 to 1831. The immigrants seem to have moved from the squalid conditions of Ireland to the squalid conditions of Pennsylvania.
http://www.workshopoftheworld.com/manayunk/manayunk.html
Of the ten mills operating on the canal in 1828, five large cotton mills would employ half of Manayunk’s 875 residents. They included Richards, Rush and Company, with 3,000 spindles and 60 powerlooms; Mr. Rising with 2,000 spindles; Mr. Morris with more than 3,000 spindles, Mr. McDowell with 2,000 spindles and; Borie, Laguerenne and Kempton with 4,000 spindles, employing 200 hands and producing twenty yards of cotton per week. When Mr. Borie boasted in 1832 that he had the largest cotton factory in Pennsylvania, Joseph Ripka, having acquired Captain Tower’s and Mr. Brooke’s millseats, had equal if not more to claim. With 7,176 spindles, 224 powerlooms, and 300 hands, his Silesia Manufactory, consisting of four mill buildings, was one of the largest textile enterprises in America. The mill town of Manayunk had emerged from what had been a pastoral meadowland only a few years earlier.
“A flourishing and populous village has risen up suddenly and where we but lately paused to survey the simple beauties of the landscape… the eye is arrested by the less romantic operations of a manufacturing community, and the ear filled with the noise of ten thousand spindles.”
The growing textile production in this new mill town along the Schuylkill attracted families of immigrants from the English, Irish, and German textile regions. Already familiar with mechanized textile mills and the accompanying working conditions, this workforce could literally step from the boat to the mill. The Manayunk textile mill owners actively sought the pool of immigrant labor because it offered another commodity they especially desired, that of the unskilled hands found in the women and children. As a bonus to the owners, older boys and men experienced with the mechanics of the spinners, carders, and mules, were available for the choosing. Families crossed the Atlantic specifically for work in Manayunk and its members, often as young as age seven, entered the mill. The new mill town also drew a population of experienced workers from various American textile mills.
Mary Cornell
October 18, 2012 at 4:57 am
Does PRONI have the early newspapers on microfilm? Especially, the Belfast Weekly News. I was going through the cotyroneireland site and there is a newspaper section with extracts from The Belfast Weekly News 1890-1896. At the time, the paper carried a section called Missing Friends. In it there are people looking for lost relatives who went to America, Canada, Australia, etc. some 30-40 years earlier. At the end of many, there is a request for American papers to publish, also. Sounds like there was some sort of connection to foreign newspapers.
Possibility there are earlier editions with others looking for lost relatives. These are the times that I really miss the microfiche days. You could just sit and look through page after page until you found what you were looking for.
Don MacFarlane
October 18, 2012 at 7:14 am
Newspapers from the period in question that PRONI have on microfilm are: Strabane Morning Post 1823-1837 MIC 184; Londonderry Sentinel 1829-1919 MIC 278; Derry Journal 1828-1876 MIC 60; Enniskillen Chronicle 1831-1833 MIC 431; Belfast Newsletter 1752-1865 MIC19.
celticknot226
October 19, 2012 at 10:48 pm
‘The Sea Is Wide – New Mysteries From Old Horizons’?
FFT: For the article: The ‘Ghosts Of Duffy’s Cut’ are not apparitions but actual men who set sail on a two-month voyage on the Atlantic for a vision of what life could be like in America. The Barque John Stamp and possibly the ships Ontario, Prudence and Asia transported Irish laborers from counties Donegal, Derry and Tyrone to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, between June – August 1832. At the peak of the second Cholera Pandemic in June – July 1832 the Pennsylvania and Columbia Rail Road administration reported in a secret file kept for 170 years in an administrative office and bestowed to the Watson family that 57 Irish laborers died from Asiatic Cholera along Mile 59 in Malvern, Chester, Pennsylvania called Duffy’s Cut. The Duffy’s Cut Project led by Professor Watson and Reverend Watson and the forensic team from Immaculata University in Pennsylvania have alluded to a more sinister account of what may have happened here. They exhumed the remains of four men and one woman who may have been murdered by the P&C Rail Road out of fear that the Cholera would spread to areas beyond Duffy’s Cut. The rail road did not identify the those men from Northern Ireland by name and that is what we hope to accomplish.
Feel free to change it!
Don MacFarlane
October 20, 2012 at 3:23 am
A good start.
To give an idea of scale, your piece is about 250 words which is about a quarter there for a thousand-word item. Using your paragraphs as Introduction, the piece might go on to discuss Aims and Objectives as follows:
‘ The ‘Ghosts Of Duffy’s Cut’ is an appellage attached to men who set sail from Derry on the barque John Stamp, and possibly the ships Ontario, Prudence and Asia, on a two-month voyage in 1832 for a vision of what life could be like in America. The arrival of these young Northern Irish laborers in Pennsylvania coincided with the peak of the second cholera pandemic that Summer. The Pennsylvania and Columbia Rail Road administration reported in a secret file kept for 170 years, bestowed to the Watson family then dusted down, that the entire squad of fifty seven died from the cholera at the stretch of railway along Mile 59 in Malvern, Chester PA, called Duffy’s Cut.
The Duffy’s Cut Project is led by the Watson brothers and a forensic team, on the foot of their exhumation of the remains of four men and one woman, has given a more sinister scenario of what may have happened. They say that these young men were possibly murdered by the P&C Rail Road out of fear that the cholera outbreak would spread. This extreme but perhaps at least partially true explanation is yet to be confirmed but in the meantime we hope to accomplish what the rail road did not – to correctly identify those young men by name and restore their memories to their families back in Ireland. This task is formidable and is working backwards from the usual direction of genealogical research that seeks to find ancestors of living relatives. Here, the task is to find living relatives from the scanty or nonexistent records of the disappeared.
To simplify the task and to score some early and initial success, the plan is to concentrate on waxwings rather than house sparrows, meaning to focus on the more distinctive names from 1832, irrespective of which boat the young Irish labourers came off. These rarer specimens, according to Griffiths, are William Devine, Robert Ewing, David Patchell (5), Samuel Forbes, James Devaney (4), Hugh Foster, John Doak (3) and Adam Diamond from the John Stamp; Robert Arthur, James Barton, Edward Blackwell (1), James Bryan, Joseph Cochrane, Edward Edgar, Andrew Fergie (3), John Fowler, Henry McFadden, Arthur McQuade, William Menagh, James Vance, James Snodgrass (5), Thomas Southwell, Peter Darmond and William Stringer from the Asia;David Peoples, Stewart Davis, William Cole (3),John Gilfilland (1)and Richard Weir from the Prudence; and James Sproule, Francis Hood, Tim McBrearty, James McHenry, Connell Harold (4),Daniel Nee (3),John McQuigg and John Aiken from the Ontario.
It cannot be certain as yet that the number of men who were killed was actually fifty seven and this number seems to have been plucked from thin air. Neither can it be certain that the fifty seven men said to have been killed at Duffy’s Cut came solely off of the John Stamp. They could hace come off the Ontario, the Asia or the Prudence instead. All carried a large number of young, strong-abled men from Tyrone, Donegal and Derry. Why then are names from Duffy’s Cut engraved with such certainty on a memorial tombstone in West Chester?
An undetermined number of bodies remain untouched under the railroad lines and until those are exhumed there cannot be a definitive number or a definitive cause of death. The nine bodies that have been examined are said to show blunt-force trauma to the head and show large gaping holes. There were musket balls found in the graves, but no matching holes found in the skulls so cause of death can be no more than speculative. inferred,
If that small sample draws a blank, the likelihood increases that the Watsons’ theory of confirmed foul play has holes. In other words, if a parallel sample of young men known not to have been at Duffy’ Cut cannot be traced from existing records, then there is no reason to suppose that absence of Duffy’s Cut men from the records means that they were murdered. The ‘evidence of absence’ protocol used by the Watsons did not help in the identification of John Ruddy. Identification was done instead through discovery of a dental anomaly. The protocol used by the Watsons will, if independently and rigidly adhered to, locate two possible John Ruddys in the 1850 census. Both lived in Pennsylvania and both fitted available information on the John Ruddy who disembarked from the John Stamp in June of 1832. Neither was found buried under scree in Duffy’s Cut.
The reason for this challenge to the Watsons’ hypothesis, done in good faith and in the spirit of rigorous academic inquiry with all due deference to them for bringing the story into the public arena, is to eliminate the inference that absence of evidence means evidence of absence. This is not to say that the Watson hypothesis cannot yet become a theory, one based upon a more solid platform of evidence.
The numbers in brackets after certain names refer to the numbers of families with that surname recorded in Ulster in the 1901 Census.
Don MacFarlane
October 20, 2012 at 4:54 am
Following on and thinking this through.
Are the names on the headstone correct?
What methods are available to track down identities?
How to circumvent the pitfalls encountered by the Watson team that led to possibly erroneous conclusions of foul play?
Glaring alternative scenario – young man, appalled by what he has seen of conditions at Malvern, quits the team and moves elsewhere in PA; after a further period of time and having earned some money takes the boat back to Ireland; ergo, no death records in US/none either in Ireland as burnt in 1922 or earlier/ no ship manifests in Ireland of re-entry as no such records were kept; hence, not murdered, just returned.
Appeal for more information from readers.
Invitation for more volunteers to become involved to work up a better account.
Contact details.
Don MacFarlane
October 20, 2012 at 4:06 pm
1901 Census
From the results of this census, any grand nephews or nieces of these Duffy’s Cut labourers are likely to have come from the following locations:
Devaney – Strabane, Loughmuck.
Doak – Raphoe, Stranorlar, Drumfad, Cranford, Rosnakill.
Blackwell – Belfast
Fergie – Belfast, Larne
Cole – Belfast, Ballymena
Snodgrass – Clondermot, Stranorlar
Patchell – Limavady, Ballyshannon, Faughanvale
Gilfilland – Templemore, Kilderry
Harold – Moville, Greencastle
Nee – Carrovady, Letterkenny, Maghesaboy
Diarmid (Darmond) – Kildrum
Doaks
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/abercorn.htm
http://cwcfamily.org/doak.htm
Patchells
http://midlife-journey.blogspot.co.uk/p/hanna-family-history.html
http://cwdpa102ndregimentvolinf.com/colonel_james_patchell.htm
Septs of Donegal
http://clanmaclochlainn.com/inish.htm
Hearth Money Rolls
http://clanmaclochlainn.com/donega10.htm
Harolds
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/conandleckbap.htm
Diermonds
http://dearmondirishfamilies.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/alex-diermond-1766.html
Don MacFarlane
October 20, 2012 at 10:44 pm
Tenants of London Worshipful Company of Fishmongers in County Derry 1871
Carnamuff, Ballykelly
James Patchell £24 rent
Tirmacoy, Ballykelly
John Patchell £27 rent
Killylane, Faughanvale
Alex Gilfilland £42
Kincull, Cumber Upper
John Long £30
Gortgar, Faughanvale
Robert Barber £50
Ballyspallen, Tamlaght Finlagan
William Patchell £82
Mary Cornell
October 21, 2012 at 5:49 am
A very rough draft. Don may have to tone down my robust conclusions. Eileen, I think you should be the one to discuss the cholera epidemic. You have a greater knowledge on that one.
‘It cannot be certain as yet that the number of men who were killed was actually fifty seven and this number seems to have been plucked from thin air. Neither can it be certain that the fifty seven men said to have been killed at Duffy’s Cut came solely off of the John Stamp. They could hace come off the Ontario, the Asia or the Prudence instead. All carried a large number of young, strong-abled men from Tyrone, Donegal and Derry. Why then are names from Duffy’s Cut engraved with such certainty on a memorial tombstone in West Chester?
An undetermined number of bodies remain untouched under the railroad lines and until those are exhumed there cannot be a definitive number or a definitive cause of death. The nine bodies that have been examined are said to show blunt-force trauma to the head and show large gaping holes. There were musket balls found in the graves, but no matching holes found in the skulls so cause of death can be no more than speculative. inferred,
The ‘evidence of absence’ protocol used by the Watsons did not help in the identification of John Ruddy. Identification was done instead through discovery of a dental anomaly. The protocol used by the Watsons, if independently and rigidly adhered to,locates two possible John Ruddys in the 1850 census. Both lived in Pennsylvania and both fitted available information on the John Ruddy who disembarked from the John Stamp in June of 1832. Neither was found buried under scree in Duffy’s Cut.
Don MacFarlane
October 21, 2012 at 8:22 am
I have re-read the ‘Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’ book, just in case I missed something, but I cannot see anything about suspected murder in it. That theory must have come later. I agree particularly with your point about the generalisation (which I find to be extraordinary and unnecessary), that the Watsons appear to have made, that there was mass slaughter. Nonetheless, it appears to me that there may be a partial truth hidden in there somwhere, perhaps along the lines – one or several men may have been shot by the vigilantes as an example; the vigilantes maintained a cordon at a safe distance till the scare was over; the remaining mem (which would have been about 50%, perhaps non O-type) buried the dead and got out, never to be seen nor heard fom again. Who would have believed them anyway, no more than the story is totally believable today.
celticknot226
October 21, 2012 at 1:12 pm
The holes in the skulls, could they be larger because of an entry wound? I don’t think I saw that they had an exit wound. Usually the entry would would be larger. They did find pewter and lead around the holes leading them to think it was a GSW to the back of the head. They weren’t shot in the front so it wasn’t execution style. Maybe the holes in the skulls are large because they were up close to them?
How old was the John Ruddy in the Philadelphia 1850? Was he a laborer?
Phillip Duffy and the Sisters Of Charity didn’t get the Cholera? Did they bring their own water or drink something else or boil the water.
I think they spoke about possible murder in the UTUBE video from Immaculata University when the doctor spoke about the traces of pewter or musket balls in the holes of the skull.
Is there info out there about what blood types people in Northern Ireland might be? For example, American Indians are believed to be Type O positive and have resistance to syphilis because of the Syphilis outbreak they were exposed to when Northern European men infected the tribes.
Eileen Breen
October 13, 2012 at 9:59 am
FFT: There is a Cholera Pit and memorial for the 1832 Cholera outbreak in Belfast which victims of the epidemic are buried in a mass grave and covered w/ quicklime. The death toll in 1832 was 2,000-3,000 people. The article from the Belfast Newsletter also stated this. In 1847 the same mass grave was used for the Typhoid epidemic. There are also mass graves located in Dublin, England, Scotland,Wales, Canada and US (Indiana).
Reasons for the mass graves: Fear of the disease, lack of space in churchyards, restrictions on movement on people from place to place and people lacked the funds to be buried and to erect memorial stones. stones were sometimes added later.
The Belfast Cholera Pit is located in the Friarsbush Gravesite. There are photos of the site on line.
I was thinking that since most of the ships to Philadelphia came from Liverpool did the laborers from N. Ireland use the McCorkle line to travel to Liverpool then to Philadelphia. The rail road was established in England prior to the US. In Liverpool they were manufacturing locomotives and shipping them here. Perhaps the men were recruited from the rail roads in the UK.
Eileen Breen
October 13, 2012 at 1:47 am
Bibliography: suggestions from Watson’s Book: American Republican Newspaper, American Rail Road Journal, Philadelphia Gazette, Daily Advertiser, Gazetter State Of PA. Facts from The Ghosts Of Duffy’s Cut:
In the Fall 1827 The survey team on the Duffy’s Cut project were hit with a fever of unknown origin that put them out of work for weeks.
Sept 16, 1828 The citizens of PA were happy that the RR was going through PA and were very pleased w/ the P&C RR.
1832 The death of 57 in Duffy’s Cut in Aug 1832 delayed completion of the rail road. The Malvern section was completed in Sept 1832.
1833 Bad weather, problems w/ contractor and labor shortages hindered the mile 59 project.
The locomotives were fueled by wood and water and pulled by a fresh team of horses every 12 miles along the route.
By the time the railroad completed a line from the Atlantic ocean to Ohio it cost 12 million dollars.
The cost of a ticket from Philadelphia to NY cost $4.50. The cost of a steamship fare was $2.50 for the same distance.
The cost to build the rail road was one third the cost of building a canal. The military readily used the rail road lines during war time.
Eileen Breen
October 11, 2012 at 1:32 pm
FFT: 1831 Derry Census: Names from John Stamp that appear on the census but don’t fit both the last and first name: Doherty, Devine, Quigley, Deveney (Devenny on census), Forbes. Name that fit both first and last name: John McGlone, George Quigley. There are 2 George Quigley ‘s. The name Patchell: There’s a William but no David. The other names recorded do not exist in the 1831 Londonderry Census.
Don MacFarlane
October 11, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Mystery of Mysteries
It totally mystifies me how the Watsons can speculate with such certainty (a contradiction in terms, I know) that there are 57 bodies buried in Duffy’s Cut when archival methods to trace them are so incomplete and so open to wishful thinking. All of the Irish censuses from 1821 to 1901 were destroyed, bar a few. The most intact census was County Derry which was for heads of household only, which most of these boys were not, and they did not come from there anyhow. Likewise, the US records are not much better as Petitions for Naturalization did not seem to be obligatory or necessary for a continued stay? Those that did apply underwent umpteen court appearances – hardly conducive to applications for citizenship. In fact it is all very reminiscent of driving license requirements in Ireland up till recently. You could wear a Learner’s plate for life without the need to undergo a driving test.
Mary Cornell
October 12, 2012 at 5:52 am
I found microfilm copies of the passenger lists on http://www.familysearch.org. They are a little clearer than those on Ancestry, with the only deciphering problem being the handwriting. It is located in Philadelphia passenger lists, Jan-Dec 1832. The Asia begins with image 315, the John Stamp begins with 332 and the Prudence begins with 396. Went through the John Stamp, and there appears to be a lot of errors. Example- as to our list with (32) William Husting; it definitely appears to be Hasting or Hastings. As to those attributed to being part of the ‘Cut’- It does look like (119)Skelton, but if you look further down to 128 that name appears to be Robert Shelton. I have the list from the ISTG and I do not have a Bernard McGarrity on mine, on my copy it is Runand McIlheaney, but looking at the actual list it is Bernard McIlheaney.
BTW Philip Duffy is buried in Saint Anne’s Catholic Parish Cemetery in Philadelphia, but it seems his whereabouts in the cemetery is unknown. Ironic that the workers are unknown in a known grave and that Duffy is known, but his grave is lost.
Don MacFarlane
October 12, 2012 at 7:54 am
The frustrating thing is not finding petitions for naturalization for even one of these emigrants. The Watsons have not offered up any details as to how their team of genealogists came up with confirmation of the 57 dead. One must assume that this conclusion was based upon absence of evidence of their continued existence in US after 1832. What is this based on?
I have almost completed a very basic database on all young male passengers on the ships John Stamp, Asia, Prudence and Ontario – the only ships that left from Ireland to Philadelphia in Summer 1832 as far as we know. The hope is that one can find a clear contrast with the names that supposedly ended up in Duffy’s Cut with those that did not. One lot should show up as continuing to live in the US, the other lot shouldn’t. Without that control group, I think any ‘evidence of absence’ should be considered weak, especially as any evidence (very sparse so far) is confusing and ‘hit and miss’.
To improve the strength of any evidence that comes to light it should meet the usual criteria for sensitivity and specificity, meaning that the evidence is there to be found (sensitivity) and is specific to that individual, meaning it could not relate to someone else other than the person of interest. Hence, the best strategy would be to focus on names that are distinctive and that are not ‘ten-a-penny’. This means ruling out such names as – Doherty, Bradley, Smith, Johnston, Campbell, Gallagher, McLaughlin, Scott, Walsh, Wilson, Kelly, Thompson, Moore. Beyond that, it would be hard to rule out anyone as it is not all clear who, other than John Ruddy, went to work for Duffy.
The other consideration is to exclude, at least provisionally, anyone who does not fit the very limited profile that one has already. For example, Skelton could be a misprint for Shelton but either way the name is of no use as there were no Skeltons in Donegal (only in Tyrone) and there were no Sheltons in Ulster. I have a bit of work to do yet to narrow down a list to one that minimises false trails. There has been enough of that already and a really good thing that could come out of a chapter is to demonstrate the difference between a trustworthy trail and a false one when tracing ancestors. The unique thing about this project is the comparison between subjects who left no descendants (because they were killed) and those who possibly did leave descendants. Either way, both lots could very well have families, even if not descendants, living today.
The other interesting thing is to discover the big holes in US records. We are all fully aware of the problem of Irish censuses from the various acts of senseless destruction of records, with the last of these being the fire of 1922, but to find a comparable problem with US records comes as something of a surprise.
Eileen Breen
October 12, 2012 at 12:37 pm
Oy Vey! It looks like you have a full time job again! I’m going to get the book. I can’t let you have all the fun! I’m curious in the book did they show the “secret rail road file” they talk about in the videos? I think its strange that so many of these names don’t seem to fit the last names in the 1831 Derry census. I didn’t expect to find the men of the John Stamp in the census but I expected to see the last name to see if perhaps their families lived in County Derry.
Eileen Breen
October 13, 2012 at 12:22 am
I guess we need to prove the men didn’t have children or a wife. Often the husband came first to earn money for the rest of the family to come. The ship manifests don’t give much information and the Derry census which would have shown head of household doesn’t give any clues to their family life. The US census would have told a better story as to their personal information. Death records or obits also but we’re not finding them. I was wondering about Mr Boyle who is the relative of Mr Ruddy. Does he know anything about the men and if families are still present in Ireland. I was thinking that Duffy wanted men with no ties to home because the work was dangerous and that way he didn’t draw attention when someone was injured or died. “For every mile of track an Irishman is buried” according to the Watsons. So we still have work to be done. I think we should put up issues we are working on somewhere (perhaps in one place) so we can try to find answers.
I noticed in the Gettysburg newspaper The Sentinel there were frequent articles about Ireland (May-Aug 1832) that seemed demeaning to me. It seemed like the political humor we learned about when we looked at England’s smear campaign against the Irish. So did the feelings Americans have toward the Irish and immigrants fuel their need for cheap, expendable labor. In some of the articles it also spoke about slavery in US and selling slaves. There was also an article in the Belfast Newsletter that spoke about Colonial slavery and it’s implications, punishment for slaves first stating not to use corporal punishment then stating how many times a whip could be used. Slavery was still be used in the south for at least 20 years after Duffy’s Cut and Indentured servitude was also in fashion.
Eileen Breen
October 13, 2012 at 12:42 am
I found the first 88 pages on Google books as Don said. In the first chapter it says that the main goal of the Philadelphia and Columbia railroad was to establish a rail line from Philadelphia to NY. This led me thinking why didn’t Duffy recruit the Irish from NYC? Certainly it would have been cheaper? Or once an immigrant was established in the US did they demand higher wages? Did the NY Irish have more of an education that would make them wise to a scheme like Duffy’s? Were the Irish from Derry more destitute and would they take any wages and servitude to get here more appealing, thus costing Duffy less money. Perhaps the men were used as ballast on the ship (like the Irish on the Coffin Ships) so the money to pay for their passage was minimal?
Eileen Breen
October 11, 2012 at 12:50 am
FFT: I was looking up 1832 and the ships going to Philadelphia. I noticed the ship manifests, no matter what country they came from, had the same printed manifest, from the same printer in Philadelphia. So maybe the names were copied from the original ship’s manifest or when people disembarked they were asked who they were, occupation and what country of origin. Most of the ships came from Liverpool but there were many other countries. From Jan to May 1832 no ships came from Ireland. Still working on the rest of the year. Also as the weather became warmer the number of ships to Philadelphia increased.
Don MacFarlane
October 11, 2012 at 6:34 am
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/fuses/passengerurls/index.cfm?fuseaction=ShowListing&StartLetter=C
This list shows how few ships left for Philadelphia. How then was Duffy ‘in the know’ as he had no reason presumably to expect a sudden influx in Summer 1832 which just happened to coincide with Mile 59 of the railway. How convenient, or did he orchestrate it all?
On the other hand, I may have just hit upon a skewed sample as another paper seems to show that Philadelphia was a favourite destination port from Derry
Click to access Derry%20emigration%20overview.pdf
Hard to square those two, the Irish Times says one thing, the Derry Port report says the opposite. Either way, Duffy as it turned out was lucky to get the numbers to pick from that he did.
Mary Cornell
October 11, 2012 at 4:26 pm
Duffy may simply have known when ships were coming into port from Ireland, but there could be the possibility that recruiting was done in NI during the winter months. The recruiters in NI would then send word to Duffy when a ship would be coming with laborers. I do not know how slow overseas correspondence was, a couple of months, which would be enough time for Duffy to plan for more workers. The line had been in production for awhile before the section in Malvern.
Looking at all of the ships coming into port during the summer of 1832, was Duffy only targeting the Irish ships? There seems to be plenty of workers coming from Liverpool and other foreign countries who would also be looking for work.
I am glad to see that the Transcribers Guild is interested in making sure things are correct. Patty MacFarlane…hmmm.
Don MacFarlane
October 11, 2012 at 8:24 am
Correspondence with Senior Officers of Transcribers Guild
Hi Patty
Thanks for the excellent work that the transcribers are doing which I find to be invaluable. I can appreciate the difficulty of deciphering what often appears to be illegible. Thank Harry on my behalf for taking the interest to pursue this particular query just that bit further.
I am carrying out some amateur but nonetheless rigorous research, assisted by two volunteers from the US, and largely looking at the passenger lists to Philadelphia in the Summer of 1832 from Londonderry viz barques – John Stamp, Asia, Prudence and Ontario. The episode culminated, according to the Watsons with a lot of publicity, in the mass murder of 57 young Irish lads in Malvern PA. Like Harry, I mean to be very tenacious and get to the bottom of it. To do that, I need to have the surnames of these lads completely accurate. Names that I suspect are wrong are the following:
John Stamp – John McClanon, John McGlone, Bernard McGarrity, William Putetill, Robert Skelton, Patrick McAnamy, Samuel McKinney. The names I am most dubious about are Putetill, McGarrity and Skelton. All the rest of the names that have been decribed seem fine.
Asia – Peter Diarmid, James Hestine, James McAnurecht, George Rich, Hugh Taughing. The rest of the names are fine but a number of the placenames look very dubious and that is to be expected and acknowledged by yourselves with asterisks etc.
Prudence – no problems
Ontario – Daniel Nee, Peter Neilson, John Pooglen, J McGaghery, J Grelis.
There are a number of minor errors scattered throughout but nothing worth mentioning. Conventions for naming may have changed and the emigrants may have spelt their names differently to how they are spelt today. More to the point (a pun) I have a theory that if quills were being used in the original entries (seems likely as no biros or fountain pens then) the upstrokes would have been fainter than downstrokes so names would be harder to make out when copied.
Thanks again for your interest
Don MacFarlane (MD., PhD)
PS Excuse the vanity of the titles in brackets, not normally my custom and that is
to indicate I am not just a dilettante; newly retired with time on my hands, yes.
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:57:55 -0400 (EDT)
ships07@aol.com wrote:
Hi Pam and Don,
I am checking the scan of the John Stamp and find several errors that I will begin to correct, adding the appropriate transcribers notes. An updated surname list will be sent.
Don, while all volunteers are instructed to transcribe what was written, or in some cases how they see what was written, there is always the issue of what was written by the scribe and how accurate it was or was not. Often, a scribe wrote down what he heard and given that, Barbour may, indeed, be Barbar or Barber, and there are others where this may be the case and those occasions need to be noted.
When I have completed a complete review, I will let you know. While the reviewed list may not completely agree with the Watson’s list, I believe most of the names from their list will be included and those that are not will be noted.
Sincerely,
Patty Prather MacFarlane
Founder, Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild
From: pkoverman
To: Ships07
Sent: Mon, Oct 8, 2012 3:32 am
Subject: Fwd: ISTG-STAFF Digest, Vol 7, Issue 117
Patty,
In my opinion only, I think this issue could bear a second set of eyes and more communication with Mr MacFarlane. To me there’s a potential question of typing accuracy, visually reading the names on the manifest accurately and/or offering alternative spellings. I get the feeling that once it was discovered that the year had been misquoted and Harry got a compliment on the accuracy of his transcription(s), the conversation stopped. It seems that the typing alternatives should at least be addressed in notes to the transcription and in the surnames files.
Thanks for listening!
Pam
From: Donald Macfarlane
To: Harry Green. Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 8:38 AM
Subject: Morning
This is just a quick query to check whether the Passenger List you have posted for the John Stamp 1837 to Philadelphia from Derry is entirely accurate. The Watsons, who research the Duffy’s Cut episode, seem to disagree?
Some examples they have quoted are:
Brian McGourley (no one whatsoever with this name on the John Stamp list)
Samuel McKenny (there is no McKenny on the John Stamp ship list and the assumption that the John Stamp spelling of McKiney is wrong is mistaken.
William Barbour is incorrect and the name Barber which is on the ship list is a popular Irish surname?
James Devenney is incorrect and is not a misspelling from Devaney which is in the ship list?
Patrick McCanning (this surname spelling is from the transcription copy and is not on the original ship list).???
Thanks in anticipation
Don MacFarlane
Don MacFarlane
October 12, 2012 at 7:20 am
Rabbi Rafael Guber
“The job of a genealogist is to take people who are just numbers and give them back their names. I know their lives are worth remembering”.
Ironically, despite the fact that Rabbi Guber has discovered his family name was Gubernick he continues to be called Guber.
http://byutv.org/watch/410e2011-5fb9-4fb3-8b8b-a36688a94c3f
Eileen Breen
October 10, 2012 at 12:51 pm
I was thinking that another reason we are not seeing the men on data bases in US or in the UK is that many of them were not old enough to own property. In the US they were staying in a one room shack in the woods. The Ulster book as described above did not have the year 1832. What about Bill McAfee does he have an insights on the names from the 3 ships. I found 1 name from the 1831 Householder in County Londonderry. John McGlone (standard), Spelt on the census; Maglone Barony Loughinsholin. Lissan (Psrish) and Mobuy (Mohony) is townland.
Don MacFarlane
October 10, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Good thinking. I took a run up to Belfast today and popped into the Linenhall Library to have a look at the Belfast Newsletter 1832 and will do so again next week. I wanted to get a feel of what things were like in that year and I picked up a few snippets:
Cholera Epidemics in March-April 1832
Glasgow – New cases 107; Died 109; Recovered 124; Remaining 338
Paisley – Cases 301; Deaths 173; Recovered 118
London – percentage deaths 45%
No mention of cholera in Northern Ireland but it was present in Dublin.
Greyabbey (County Down) Petition against Tithes
“we as Protestants, Presbyterians and Dissenters are determined to free ourselves from the unjust exactions of a church which does not form one fifteenth part of the population of Ireland, the tenth part of whose produce must go to glut the insatiable appetite of its clergy”
Ships out of Belfast in April 1832
For Quebec
Earl of Aberdeen, Mars, Betsey Millar, Albion, Thomas Gelston, Wilkinson, George IV
For Baltimore
Mars 2
St Johns, Newfoundland
John and Mary
Pictou, Nova Scotia
Archibald
National Education Plan (Kildare Place)
“our object, and we freely own it, would be the conversion of Roman Catholics and we believe if they were educated this result would naturally follow. At all events we would give them education and leave the production of its fruits to providence”
“the power of the priesthood over these people is ten fold greater than anywhere else in the Empire”
Flaxseed Imports on a Ship from New York
400 barrels of New Riga flaxseed
Comment: I think you can see a picture emerging here of a Province that is ‘still in business’ in making linen so there should have been work there still for flaxgrowers and weavers. The flax was being advertised for sale, so it was not all being snapped up in advance by linen mills in Belfast. There was no mention of that ship taking back human cargo on the return journey to New York and there was clearly a market in Belfast for flaxseed despite the attempts of the British Government to monopolise that trade. There was a regular and plentiful exodus for North America but most of it was going to Canada, not the US, at that juncture.
There was cholera about but Northern Ireland was pretty clear of it – a good reason against internal migration to GB where cholera was rife and an ignorance of the fact that by going to US it was ‘out of the frying pan into the fire’. The death rate from cholera in Scotland was running at 25% whereas it was twice that death rate in London.
Any religious intolerance was being directed against the money-grabbing Anglicans, not against Roman Catholics who were perceived as ignorant but harmless ‘God Bless Them”! In 1811 a report from the Commissioners of the Board of Education considered that at least 200,000 children were being educated in hedge schools in 17 of the 22 dioceses. In these there were 3,736 schoolmasters, 1,271 of whom were Protestant and 2,462 Catholic, and 162,467 children were said to be attending hedge schools. The Commissioners later reported 561,000 being taught in 1824. The number of pupils attending each school varied from about 20 to upwards of 100.135. None of this squares with the account being given by the Watsons in their book of a people who were largely illiterate.
Eileen Breen
October 10, 2012 at 11:56 pm
There was cholera in Belfast in 1832 according to the Belfast Newsletter. There were more people with cholera in Derry, about 3,000 in all. The book Ulster to Philadelphia had multiple entries for 1833 but none for 1832.
Don MacFarlane
October 11, 2012 at 6:29 am
http://www.historyhome.co.uk/peel/p-health/cholera3.htm
This short history of cholera in Britain describes how the disease arrived with sailors and entered though the port of Sunderland in late 1831. As far as I can see so far from the Belfast Newsletter it had not appeared in Northern Ireland by the time the Duffy Boys had left for the US but very likely it did appear shortly after as 1832 was the landmark year for cholera. It then seemed to disappear as an epidemic, though it may well have continued as a sporadic disease, until the next epidemic in 1848.
Mary Cornell
October 11, 2012 at 5:03 am
i have been wondering about Philip Duffy… and maybe I have been watching too much ID television, too many secrets and plots going on, at least in my mind. Duffy died a wealthy man in 1871. Was it possible for an Irish contractor who worked on the railroad to make as much money as Duffy did? He was worth $40,000 in 1870; a lot of money for a poor immigrant from Ireland. Could the railroad have paid hush money or made sure that Duffy always won the contract for rail work as payment for his silence on what happened in Malvern and possibly other sites? FFT
I have been looking for anything on the Pennsylvania Railroad, but have been unable to find anything in the PA archives, PA Railroad archives or PA railroad museums. If it was a cover up in Malvern, it was buried deep.
Eileen Breen
October 9, 2012 at 6:31 pm
I was looking up weavers in Donaghedy, Co. Tyrone when I found a huge eighteen- generation family tree of the Love family. This has no connection to our men but may shed some light on why people left for America. This tree starts in late 1700s and the family owns a lot of property in Ardstraw. They left for Philadelphia in 1770s. There is a book Ardstraw,The Story Of A Parish, by John H. Gebbie.
There was extreme difficulty making a living at this time. “The cottagers” left out of necessity and hunger and the weavers were forced abroad by the trade depression in 1770s”. Maybe things weren’t much better by 1832. Places they found information in were wills, tenant rental maps, Presbyterian and Catholic Church records after 1860. There was a Presbyterian Church in Ardstraw village which was only thirty miles from Londonderry.
Don MacFarlane
October 9, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Falsities, Generalisations and Errata in ‘Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’ Page 19.
“At the time of the Famine, the majority of Irish people were Gaelic-speaking so immigrants to America were canon fodder for unscrupulous contractors”.
Fact: A statistical survey by Ravenstein showed that the parts of North-West Ulster in 1851 that were the places of origin of the passengers of the ships John Stamp, Asia and Prudence, had less than 25% Irish-speaking population. Fact: About a third of the emigrants had non-Irish and non-Celtic names. Fact: Any monoglot Irish speakers presumably would not be able to repeat on request the English versions of their names for the ship’s bursar.
Eileen Breen
October 9, 2012 at 5:32 pm
They probably didn’t understand why someone would want to kill them, what their rail road supervisors asked of them or the disease they contracted secondary to their knowledge of the English language. Today in US hospitals and clinics its mandatory to have access to a translator either by phone or in person so people have an understanding of what is being asked of them.
I was thinking that people in Philadelphia in reading about the men may not have understood the full story. The facts were probably obscured by the Cholera Pandemic that was in the news daily for at least 3 months from June to August and 1 article in September 1832. I think the rail road mongers saw this as a way to conceal what happened as well as making various articles disappear from the libraries.
Don MacFarlane
October 9, 2012 at 6:08 pm
Falsities etc of ‘Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’, Page 67
“Julian Sachse stated that Duffy in early Summer 1832 employed a large number of Irishmen who had but lately arrived on these shores. A number of them likely came off the John Stamp and were men such as the following …..”
FACT: There is no reason given as to why the ships Asia and Prudence, which arrived from Ireland around the same time, were not considered as contenders as ships that contained young manual workers.
Don MacFarlane
October 9, 2012 at 6:43 pm
I have purchased ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’ and I have to confess to being disappointed in it. With Bill Watson telling me that a team of six, four historians and two genealogists, worked on this for a year I was hoping to see something of a methodology at work, but there was no reference to any sources they checked to identify the victims. Various numbers were thrown about as to whether it was eight, sixteen or fifty four victims – a ‘you pays your money and takes your choice’ type of approach. It seems to be largely smoke and mirrors, with a big dollop of ghost-hunting thrown in for good measure. I think, ladies, you may have to roll your sleeves up!
The Watsons have another book coming out in the next eighteen months or so which may cover the ground of what genealogical detective work was done. Certainly, in one of Frank Watsons’s mails to me he makes reference to a pretty thorough search of records they took on but I can’t find any of that in the current book. Less ghostbusting and more archive digging would be more up my street.
Don MacFarlane
October 28, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Nine Types of Ghost
Sunday Times 10/28/12
Elementals – ghosts connected to burial grounds.
Poltergeits- ghosts full of angry energy.
Traditionals – souls that communicate with the loving.
Manifestations – effusions of energy connected to a particular place, epecially round anniversaries.
Apparitions – ghosts appearing to those with whom they have close bond.
Timeslips – eperiences of stepping into the past.
Phantoms – ghosts of the living.
Inanimates – ghostly energy attached to familiar objects.
Animal ghosts – being a ghost is not exclusive to humans.
Don MacFarlane
October 9, 2012 at 7:06 pm
The ship Asia docked in Philadelphia five days before the John Stamp, no doubt met by Philip Duffy. Over 50% of passengers were young labourer males under or around the age of 30. This was even more than the percentage of young male labourer passengers on the John Stamp. The net search might therefore have to be broadened. It is clear that John Ruddy came off the John Stamp but not at all what greater number came off that ship to work for Duffy. Likewise the ship Prudence docked in Philadelphia a mere four weeks after the John Stamp. Altogether, about 150 young male labourers from Ireland came off those three ships in Philadelphia over the course of five weeks, that being the pool that Duffy coud draw from.
Eileen Breen
October 9, 2012 at 1:15 am
There is a seven minute video on Utube where the Watson brothers are meeting with Irish Ambassador Michael Collins. They found Duffy’s grave in PA. Also the ship’s captain mainly sailed out of Cork and even brought prisoners to Australia. Could Cork be a place to look for advertizements for recruitment of the men? I’m curious how the captains were selected to go to different assignments.
Interesting letter from Dr Watson. I’m curious what research topics are still available. When they told the public eight men died at Duffy’s Cut wasn’t anyone curious who the men were and why they died?
Don MacFarlane
October 9, 2012 at 7:06 am
More from Frank Watson
As Mary would say, hmmm…
I would strongly recommend reading our book, as there is nothing more definitive on the subject in print. We have located a great deal of further evidence, both archaeological and archival, which will be discussed in our second book, which will be published by Praeger Publishers in 2013 or 2014. A second documentary, on the finding of the first seven sets of remains, has been produced by Tile Films, and will air on American PBS in March, 2013 (and probably on RTE at the same time).
The primary sources on the story are contained in Pennsylvania archives, which our team has combed through thoroughly, but the starting point is the Pennsylvania Railroad file which, prior to our investigation, was the only contextual documentary evidence on the event. The Nov 7, 1832 Village Record retraction story exists in print copy and microfilm, but the Oct 3 story which it supposedly corrects, does not exist in any archive in the US, suggesting it was pulled from the record at the time. The Ogden Diary, which had a first hand account of the event, has also vanished. Our team of historians has spent many hours at the Chester County Historical Society and the Pennsylvania Archives in Harrisburg and has located a good deal of contextual evidence. The forensic evidence shows that the first victims were murdered by blunt force trauma (one, however, had both an axe blow and a bullet in his skull).
The documentary context for violence to Irish immigrant workers during the 1832 cholera epidemic is growing larger. We have located other reports of immigrant murders in Chester County during the epidemic which will be discussed more thoroughly in our second book. Janet Monge, physical anthropologist and bone curator at the University of Pennsylvania Museum, has said that if the men had cholera, it was certainly not what killed them. There are no defensive wounds on any of the remains, so it was not a “faction fight” that caused their deaths, and the extreme violence meted out to the men and one woman, as well as the railroad’s own report of a quarantine, suggest it was not a “mercy killing” either. Nativism was on the rise in Pennsylvania in the early 1830s, as discussed in our first book. The family that owned the valley where the men worked and died in 1832 also ran the East Whiteland Horse Company, the local vigilante organization.
Mary Cornell
October 9, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Hmmmmm
I am interested in what your colleague has to say on this. There seems to be so many things that can be said about his letter, but I am going to wait and see what comes from your conversation on Friday. Do you also get the feeling that the Watsons might be reading this blog? When he refers to the first victims, is he speaking of the first bodies that were found? We have no way of knowing when the found victims died, first or last.
Eileen brought up an interesting point. Were the eight men identified to the public? Surely, there were those who were aboard ship with these men, living in Phila. who had to wonder what happened to them.
Eileen Breen
October 9, 2012 at 12:29 am
The Smithsonian Channel: Ghosts Of Duffy’s Cut. I’m sorry to find out you have to subscribe to their channel to see the video. I’m hoping someone will put it on UTUBE. I haven’t found it on UTUBE. It looks like it was also on in June. I wrote to the Smithsonian Channel to see if they could put it on line. If you have an AP for itunes for your ipad or other devices you might be able to pay to see it. But for now I don’t think I’ll be able to see it.
Mary Cornell
October 8, 2012 at 5:20 am
Thanks for the newspaper articles, Eileen. They were very informative as they effectively speak to the state of mind that the populations must have been in what with so many deaths from cholera. I was particularly interested in the article on no deaths in the Alms House. Does this allude to there being deaths in the cities?
This next article I found was while looking into the weavers, here and in Ireland. It gives more insight into what was happening in Ireland in the early 1800s and why Seamus’s mother would send her eleven year old son with the others to America. Notice that there does seem to be a lot of letters back and forth between family members. Those in Ireland would surely be expecting to hear from their sons working on the Cut. It must have been unbearable waiting and waiting to hear from them. http://cotyroneireland.com/emigration/emigration_donagheady.html
Genealogically speaking, what we do now is start eliminating people from the list. I suppose that would entail searching for each person in the census. In America, I would be looking for people in the 1840 census. What I would be looking for is for matching ages. If naturalization records have ages listed, it would help to narrow down the field. In Ireland, it would mean not finding people in the later censuses. This would mean that they have either died or left for America. It is not scientific, but it starts to pare down the names. I did notice that Bill McAfee has the entire Co Derry 1831 Census on line. It might help to locate those with the less common names from Derry. On a cursory glance, the name Sherwood (John Stamp) only appears once in the 1831 census, in Templemore. And then see if those names are in later censuses.
Don MacFarlane
October 8, 2012 at 7:39 am
Hi Mary
I think you may have hit on something with this article you found on Donaghedy. If we take the Tyrone weavers and labourers off the John Stamp, it is probable that they came from Donaghedy and its adjoining townlands
http://www.ancestryireland.com/database.php?filename=map_tyrone
Here they are:
Donaghedy Labourers
Baird (Urney, Ardstraw)-
Forbes (Ardstraw, Termonamongan)
Johnston (all, prolific)
Long (all, sparse)
McConamy (local, sparse)
McKenny (Ardstraw, Urney, sparse)
Donaghedy Weavers
Foster (Donacavey, Clogher)
Campbell (all, prolific)
Cooke (all, sparse)
Rice (all, sparse)
Donaghy (all, prolific)
McRory (Bodoney, specific)
‘All’ means dispersed thoughout Tyrone, therefore of limited usefulness unless sparse in number; ‘Prolific’ means plentiful but only of use if localised, which is not the case with this sample; and ‘Sparse’ means few in number, may even be extinct by now but otherwise extremely useful. Alternative placenames in brackets refer to where else these boys could have come from if not from Donaghedy and all but two(Bodoney and Clogher) are from a townland next-door.
The best names to zone in on at this stage are – Long, McConamy, McKenny, McRory, Cook, Rice and Foster. According to the Watsons, the labourers amongst those are buried in Duffy’s Cut; those that remained weavers are not.
If you were to write a feature article for the Strabane Weekly News, then later for the Derry Journal and the Belfast Telegraph, I have a feeling that something would come of it? On reflection, a drilling down on the basis of what you have unearthed here, and using these names only, is the way to go. Forget about the big-number approach I suggested earlier, that would be for a later stage (a specialist publication or such like), if at all.
With some good detective work, this initial part of the exercise could be wrapped up in no time? Or perhaps not, I have run most of the names past the Births section in
http://ifhf.rootsireland.ie/quis.php?page=1&confirmPageView=Y
to show that these people even existed and all I have come up with is blanks. Likewise, they are not registered in the Irish Ship Passenger Lists on the same website. I have a card up my sleeve, however, as Dr William Roulston is an acquaintance of mine from Donaghedy. William has a PhD in Irish History and he is the Research Officer at the Ulster Historical Foundation.
Mary Cornell
October 8, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Hi all
Concentrating on the short list of names that Don put forth, I have been looking in the US censuses. I have only been able to find two of the names. Possibility for John Long in the 1860 census for Philadelphia. Eileen, you might be able to read what his occupation is because I surely can’t. Stronger possibility for Samuel McKinney (not McKenney) in Allegheny, PA listed as a farmer. The ages are not consistent, census to census, but the same wife and family. Have not been able to find any of the other names. It is nice to hear that there is at least one other detractor concerning the Watsons’ theory. We might not be barking up the wrong tree after all.
Don MacFarlane
October 8, 2012 at 6:23 pm
Questionmarks
Why are erroneous transcriptions eg Putetill appearing on a headstone?
Why is it assumed that most if not all the young labourers went to Duffy’s Cut?
How does a handful of bones suddenly become 57 murdered?
How does ‘absence of evidence’ suddenly become ‘evidence of absence’? – so that absence of US death certificates, absence of Naturalization Petitions etc means bodies were feloniously secreted.
Why are there no Irish birth certificates and passenger entries for these young men?
There are probably a whole host of other anomalies and these here are just for starters.
Don MacFarlane
October 8, 2012 at 8:42 pm
From Frank Watson, received today:
It is interesting to have another look at this material that I/we have been working with for over a decade now. In particular, some possible connections with the John Stamp names and locations within Ireland. We have had some assistance in that regard from folks who came to us via Tile Films in Dublin, and through interviews that we did for BBC Foyle, and the Shaun Doherty show on Highland Radio in Donegal (as well as some who worked with us in our first TV documentary, “The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut,” in particular Sean Beattie, and Paddy Fitzgerald from the Omagh Center for Migration Studies).
You will see from the digitized copy of the original ship manifest from the John Stamp why we have had issues with the quality of the transcription version of the list by the Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild. There are clear discrepancies between the 2008 transcription and the original.
I assume my brother told you about our search for the ships that brought Irish immigrant laborers to the port of Philadelphia in the summer of 1832 (based on information found in the PRR file on Duffy’s Cut)? We searched through the National Archives and we also examined the passenger manifests for the Asia and Prudence. We then searched American census, marriage, tax, property, death records etc for the names on the John Stamp and found a number of names (particularly among the laborers) who disappear from the historical record. That is a short hand version of what took the better part of a year’s worth of research by our team of four professional historians and archivists and genealogists.
A lot of this material is found in our book, The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut. We detailed this search there, but the short version is this. In terms of the Village Record newspaper, we have searched the full run of the newspaper (both hard copy and microfilm) in the archives at the Chester County Historical society and there are multiple stories of Philip Duffy’s work along that stretch of railroad in various issues of the paper, as well as others, including the American Republican newspaper. But it is also clear that the one copy of the Village Record newspaper that contained the full story of what happened at Duffy’s Cut is missing from the modern historical record. The November 7, 1832, retraction of the earlier story that appeared in the Village Record is all that appears to have survived (the original story was obviously pulled from the public record).
In terms of the numbers of the men who died at Duffy’s Cut, we found the Mitchell Letter to the PA Canal Commissioners (spring 1833) which detailed the deaths of up to 60 men at Duffy’s Cut, and the PRR file stated definitively that 57 men died there (while they told the public that only eight men died there).
As I look to your reading of the names on the original ship list in your last email, I note the following:
Passenger 10 could possibly read William Patchill (noting that passenger 114 is David Patchill);
Passenger 16 – could possibly be McKenny rather than McKinny;
Passengers 36 and 37 — Buchanan for Barber? I am not at all convinced by that reading;
Passenger 128 – Skelton vs. Skipton — the fourth letter looks like an “L,” consistent with other “L’s” on the passenger manifest… “P” as in Campbell as in passenger 38, Hugh Campbell – looks very different; I am not at all convinced that this surname is Skipton.
On behalf of our team, I thank you for your questions and suggestions for places of origin for the John Stamp names. It is fascinating to have another set of eyes looking at the material but our book does offer ample material for further research in this area (pardon the shameful promotion…lol).
Eileen Breen
October 9, 2012 at 5:57 pm
In the file they found it stated there were 57 bodies buried and in a rail road inquiry it stated there were at least sixty persons buried in Duffy’s Cut. I saw this in a video on UTUBE. The naturalization process starts about 1 month after one comes here. There are 23 times you appear in the court over a three year period to complete the process. Maybe the men weren’t planning to stay. Perhaps they would stay for a few months during the summer when work was available then return home. It snows in Pennsylvania and it is very cold in the winter. Also horses pulled the locomotives. The horses can’t do this on ice and snow.
The absence of death certificates is a problem. I couldn’t find any Board Of Health Inquiries. It would be great to go to the libraries in Pennsylvania. I’m sure the Watson team spent a lot of time there. I think the University had these remains for a while and they wanted to give the men a proper burial. I think they did the best with what they had and with good intentions. The names are very difficult to read. I’m sure if some proof comes with getting the names right the Watsons and the University would do right by these men and correct the headstone.
I’m glad the Watson’s would want to work with an “armchair history buff” like myself! In one of the videos on UTUBE it said for “every mile of track an Irish man is buried.” I thought I read they were also looking into other sites that men were hired to build the rail road tracks. They also felt there were other accounts where men also died on other sites. This was the industrial Revolution so I’m sure there there are more accounts of unscrupulous behavior.
Don MacFarlane
October 7, 2012 at 9:22 am
Sir Robert Peel (1788-1850), a bigger scoundrel than Oliver Cromwell?
Born in Lancashire to the first baronet Peel who was one of the biggest and richest textile manufacturers during the Industrial Revolution.
Elected MP with his father’s money at the tender age of 21 to the Rotten Borough of Cashel in Tipperary which had 24 voters. His sponsor was the future Lord Wellington, Chief Secretary for Ireland and an Irishman by birth, famous for his outburst, “being born in Ireland does not make me Irish, no more than being born in a stable would make me a horse!”
With the nickname, ‘Orange Peel’, he was the strongest opponent of Catholic Emancipation, he delayed by a decade William Pitt’s efforts to repeal the Penal Laws, and he resigned as MP when emancipation was finally passed.
He introduced a police force to Britain but he nonetheless challenged the Liberator, Daniel O’Connell, to a duel – a favourite means of MPS at the time of settling differences of opinion. There’s one for Obama and Romney!
Peel was elected Prime Minister in 1834 while on holiday in Italy but he insisted on finishing his holiday before taking up office.
He opposed free trade with Ireland as it would damage the interests of his family business. He threatened as a bluff to move his linen mills to Ireland where labour was so cheap.
Hero or Villain?
A bit of both as far as the Irish are concerned. On the credit side, he reduced the number of offences that could attract a death penalty. On the debit side, he suppressed Irish efforts to become self-sufficient, indirectly contributed by so doing to the Irish famines, and provided inadequate relief measures when the Great Famine appeared. He took a protectionist stance to maintain a ‘special relationship’ in trade with the US at the expense of the Irish who were thereby forced to emigrate to the US and elsewhere.
Don MacFarlane
October 7, 2012 at 5:17 am
Yes, I remember reading this article which I had already come across and thinking how little mention there is, only the merest passing reference, of the possibility of foul play. The article was written in 2009 and it is since then that the project has had lift-off, on the back of the murder story. It all reminds me, as I said before, of the definition of a statistician as ‘someone who can jump directly from a set of unwarranted assumptions to a premature conclusion’. That of course is a cheap shot as statisticians are trained to do the opposite. I think if the Duffy’s Cut chapter for the book took a much more professional approach it would be doing a great service, not only to these unfortunate young men, but to amateur family historians by pointing out pitfalls. This is why I think yourself and Mary would make a great team by bouncing ideas, and dismissing them as necessary, off each other. I hope to analyse the data from all three ships, Asia, Prudence and John Stamp – all might become clear later but how does one get to view th record, the information on sncestry is very scant. It just confirms an application was made, nothing else.
Don MacFarlane
October 7, 2012 at 6:42 am
My hypothesis will be that there is no difference between being a labourer and a weaver. That should show in the records if the Duffy’s Cut account is genuine. A good few of the boys, even within the same family, were described as weavers with older sibs being labourers. It may all add up to the same thing – Duffy would take one look at a puny 16 year old, weaver or not, and say “you’re no use to me” and sibs would have been separated. I suspect it was a case of a distraught Irish mum back home, losing her two sons (one 18 and the other 16) to the US with her parting words to wee puny Seamus being “remember, you’re a weaver, not a labourer yet like Paddy there, till you build a bit of muscle”.
Eileen Breen
October 7, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Did you receive the ship manifests I sent to your email on the Asia, Prudence and John Stamp? You can do a free trial on Ancestry. Go under Immigration, then ships, scroll on June and July 1832. June for the John Stamp and July for the Prudence. The Asia off the top of my head is either June or July. The only thing I found was the Pennsylvania Railroad log that talked about the pandemic. I noticed Professor Watson researched the newspaper The Friend which I think is a Quaker newspaper in Pennsylvania. I’m not sure if it’s on Ancestry. There is also an Ancestry UK version on the same website. The records may be different than on the US version.
Perhaps the UK newspapers may have something. I tried to look at a few but I need to look further. The article on the Sisters had footnotes at the bottom leading to his sources for those items which might be interesting to look at. I disagree about the weaver/laborer issue. I had a great-grandfather who was a weaver and his information said weaver and another great-grandfather who was a laborer and he worked various jobs and was not a weaver.
There was a large linen industry in Ireland and Irish weavers were recruited by the mills in the US. It was illegal for mill-owners to take out of Europe any looms, weavers or plans to build looms. Weaving was a specialized skill. Donegal is known for it’s weaving, whereas most of Ireland at this time was farmland. I think if you earned a trade this was like receiving an education and one would stay in that trade. You wouldn’t want to be just a laborer who was not educated and education meant an opportunity and a way out of Ireland.
Eileen Breen
October 7, 2012 at 12:38 am
I read your letters to Dr Watson I think the discrepancies with the names and why you think they may be incorrect based on your research of family names could be an interesting point for the article on Duffy’s Cut. What about making a map or spreadsheet of the names and where they came from for the article? Maybe this article could be done from the Ireland perspective. What was happening in the country and the need to immigrate. Did men from certain areas have occupations that defined what families they came from. Often a trade was passed from father to sons. Were they masons, farmers, laborers or another trade? In my tree the father worked on the railroad and you could see the sons in various ranks of the profession as you looked at the Irish census.
I’m not sure the men on the Asia made it to Duffy’s Cut. Most of them were weavers, farmers and other trade occupations. They were not listed as laborers. Also many families traveled together. Duffy wanted young, strong single men with no attachments and not much “baggage.” The men stayed in Duffy’s shack so they never stayed in Philadelphia, thus never making it on any census, immigration or naturalization paperwork. They probably never had a bank account. Men owed their lives to the company store. They would be charged high prices by the rail road store for supplies so they probably couldn’t save any money.
Professor Watson said alcohol was highly available. It probably kept the men content to stay there under harsh conditions and low pay. They were stuck. The other two ships seem more likely. I tried to look up records in the PA.Gov website but couldn’t get onto it and I also tried through ancestry. I also looked for railroad histories but only found the one I quoted yesterday. I was wondering if there is a railroad museum in PA for the Pennsylvania or Columbia railroads. There are a lot of railroad enthusiasts who know everything about the railroads. I have a friend that builds model railroads with much enthusiasm so maybe that’s a source.
I was also thinking if there were Board of Health records or a Sanitary Commission like they had in the American Civil War. What about the Sisters Of Charity who tried to care for the men. Are you sure of the Col Putetill connection? When I looked up the tree on ancestry the dates and names didn’t seem quite right. The dates seemed later than our William and David and I didn’t see these two names together as brothers.
Don MacFarlane
October 7, 2012 at 5:54 am
I don’t think there is any direct connection between the Patchells of Ballyshannon in Donegal (William and David’s clan) who appear to have been the poor and distant cousins and the Tamlaght Finlagan Patchells (the good Colonel’s lot) from Derry who were significant landowners in a different part of the country. However, with the rarity of the name, I do believe they were connected and French Huguenots. Why both lots split off from the bulk of the Huguenots who had a commune in Lisburn in County Antrim, and who were the backbone of the weaving industry, is a puzzle however.
Don MacFarlane
October 7, 2012 at 1:51 pm
The same thought occurred to me until I realised (I think) that the benefits from the Flaxgrowers Lists only lasted until shortly before these weavers left on the John Stamp for the US. The practise of home-weaving was petering out with the advent of industrial looms in places such as Belfast, not even Lisburn so much any more, that could do the job much more efficiently. That left country folk in the lurch. I have checked the 1796 Lists for counties Derry, Tyrone and Donegal and most of the family names of the US-bound ‘weavers’ appear there. What puzzles me now are the cases of siblings within the same family where the younger sib is classed as a weaver and the older sib is classed as a labourer – the Ewings from Donegal being a case in point. Why the difference?
Eileen Breen
October 5, 2012 at 11:18 pm
I was thinking about Mary’s question “how do we know the men were from the John Stamp”? The laborer John Ruddy had the dental anomaly. it was attributed to the family in Donegal by a forensic dentist. 15 men from the John Stamp are buried in PA. There were 57 altogether. So what about the Prudence that Mary suggested. Could the others came from this ship? It was the only other ship coming from Londonderry. The men were from Derry and Donegal The other men listed on the John Stamp were weavers. their skills were fine, not like a laborers hands. They may have ended up in a mill in Philadelphia that produced wool, tapestry or Alpaca woollen products.
Mary Cornell
October 6, 2012 at 6:21 pm
Thank you Eileen! for seeing what I have been attempting to put forth as a possibility. Something that the Watsons somehow can’t grasp. The positive identification of John Ruddy does point toward passengers of the John Stamp being on the crew at the Cut, but there could also be men from both the Asia and the Prudence at the Cut. Prudence seems to be a more likely choice, but jumping to that conclusion can also lead us down the wrong path; ie. The crew that worked on the Cut could have come from any or all of the three ships. This also begs the question, how do we know that there were only 57 on the crew? Is there also a possibility of more? These men simply left, alive and well.
Nothing like putting the pressure on, Don 🙂 If anything, we can set things right for these ‘expendable’ men.
Eileen Breen
October 6, 2012 at 9:10 pm
Looking at the three ships, the John Stamp, Asia and the Prudence: The Asia seemed to have no laborers. The occupations of the men were weavers and farmers. So I think we can rule it out. The John Stamp and the Prudence seems more of a possibility. There were more laborers. I sent you both the ship’s manifests for all three ships to your private email. The Pennsylvania Railroad said the cholera pandemic didn’t reach PA until July 1832. I was also thinking what if the ships also went to Canada on a different run or before they came to PA? If they picked up new supplies and water this could be how they contracted the cholera. I’m sure they didn’t wash the barrels out each time they got water. Also, this was before steam was used on the ships to keeping supplies fresh for three months must have been difficult. I saw on line someone said the Prudence also went to New Brunswick. I don’t know if it was before they went to other east coast ports or did they do a run just to Canada. Cholera came from India to Canada then to the US Ports as the Pennsylvania railroad believed. I think the horses that pulled the locomotives and brought supplies up from the canals could also be sources of the cholera. BTW: It was the Irish and the English in Liverpool that built the locomotives and put it on a ship to Pennsylvania. Don’t forget Oct 8th at 8pm The Discovery Channel! (on line) It’s too bad they were here only a short time because they just missed being in the US Census or the naturalization process.
Mary Cornell
October 7, 2012 at 3:00 am
I disagree with you on one point Eileen. I don’t think we can rule out the Asia based on the occupation being listed as Farmer. We can probably eliminate those listed as weavers but farming was the occupation that these men did in Ireland. If we think about it, farming in Northern Ireland could not have been much different to cutting land for the railroad in the US. Same type of back-breaking labor. How many farm jobs would have been available for them when they arrived? I am of the mind to think that they would have taken the immediately available job offered to them by Duffy on the dock, if only to make money until they found a job in the area of farming.
I don’t know if this is logical, but if you are looking for naturalization patterns, I wouldn’t think in terms of percentages, but think in terms of family. I think that those who came over together as families or met husbands already in the country (Barr family comes to mind), would apply for citizenship. I also think that the ones who were able to find fairly suitable employment would also apply for citizenship fairly soon.
Don MacFarlane
October 7, 2012 at 5:29 am
You could well be right, and the same thought has occurred to myself, that reasons and intentions for immigration might differ for unattached young men from those of family units travelling together. Family units might be expected to become US citizens – all young under 25 years of age became citizens automatically if a senior, presumably male, member had applied for naturalization. Likewise, young unattached males might not necessarily see the American venture as a one-way trip and more a case of ‘needs must when the Devil drives’. However, Australian convicts from Ireland, albeit they left under different circumstances, rarely took the return trip home once their sentence had expired – did the same apply for US immigrants during the same period of the early 1800s?
In Scotland, the terms Farmer, Cottier and Agricultural Labourer were interchangeable, with Labourer being the poorest and at the bottom of the heap with no claim on even a handkerchief of land. I suspect it was the same in Ireland and the jobs they did were essentially the same so Mary is right there. The other point tnat might be worth looking at is to do with the collapse of the linen/cotton industry in Ireland due to the actions of the British Government which deliberately destroyed the Irish economy prior to the Famines. To facilitate the cotton mills in Lancashire, the tarriff barriers were removed and cheap raw products flooded in from the US so causing the collapse of a very successful Irish economy at the time and creating the ‘perfect storm’ conditions that forced emigration. Mind you, I don’t think some of these boys would have been rated much as weavers, not yet even being 20, unless they had started very young and even so. Squeeze the peasants by allowing them only the worst of scrubland to work and remove the chance of alternative employment by buying cheaper woven products from elsewhere – much like Eileen’s points made in a recent post about Asiatic imports to the US which is history repeating itself. The US is the new Ireland!
PS If some of these boys stuck with weaving, where were the factories in PA, would that have been Philadelphia or elsewhere?
Eileen Breen
October 7, 2012 at 3:03 pm
The Germans were also weavers and the Irish may have followed them to the Lancaster, Ephrata , Germantown area. The Amish were also into textile skills. I sent to your emails June to Sept 1832 The Adams sentinel, Gettysburg, PA. Brief articles on the Cholera pandemic. I think by 20 years of age they could have been weavers. Boys left school by sixth grade to help earn money for the family and the average lifespan was about fortu years of age. Also the factories would be near canals that were a source of water power for the linen and textile mills. There are many mills along the east coast of PA and the north-eastern states.
It wouldn’t hurt to look at each ship and put it through the same criteria: Where they lived in Ireland, which ship they were on, who did they travel with, occupation, see if we can find them in neighboring communities. My mom has a PA map. I can see if I can come up with a few town names, did they appear in subsequent censuses, did they return home, were they in receipt of medical care, church memberships, marriages, deaths. Just to name a few inquiries we could do. Then Don could put their names to the test back in Ireland. Perhaps we could each take a ship and passenger list? Mary and Don, do you have another focus to suggest?
Don MacFarlane
October 7, 2012 at 3:36 pm
This is where I fall short as I have minimal genealogy skills.
Of no or little use in this exercise would be – BMD certificates, headstones, wills, church registers, muster rolls, hearthmoney rolls, tithe rolls?
Of some use if available would be – newspaper cuttings, passenger manifests, port of entry records, Griffiths valuation, Flaxgrower lists?
Of more use if available would be – any leads, no matter how small, from any of the above.
In the meantime, I had planned to take a more macroscopic approach but the limited Ancestry information – no year of entry, no name of ship, no location of origin, does make things much more difficult.
Eileen Breen
October 7, 2012 at 3:23 pm
South Philadephia had many mills and factories. By 1870 there were over 2,000 factories and mills in Philadelphia. A lot of the factories were near the rivers, the Delaware etc, that were the major waterways, and where the railroads laid their tracks for easier capability of moving goods. With the industrial revolution and Civil War, children as young as twelve worked in the mills often without out safety equipment, worked long hours, and little pay. Children often lost their limbs. Animal rights came before children’s rights in the USA. We need the same list of people to look up with same criteria.
Eileen Breen
October 5, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Do you want a copy of the manifests of Prudence and John Stamp for the website? I can scan and send it if interested. On Facebook the Duffy’s Cut site has a replica of the John Stamp the Discovery Channel used in the movie. It will be on Oct 8th at 8PM and will be available on the computer. I tried to find the film I spoke about earlier but I was unable to find it. FFT: I don’t think the Professor was ignoring you but I think he’s in the dark as much as us. I think these records are going to be like a needle in a haystack. I couldn’t find anything in the Library of Congress. I read about the railroad that was responsible for building this line and what they built in 1832. It didn’t mention Duffy’s Cut specifically or Malvern. I don’t think this area was “signifcant” when the railroad was built- it was a means to get through a rocky, dangerous terrain. It wasn’t until the secret file was found that Malvern, PA was put on the map. I also noticed there were a group of weavers from Donegal on the John Stamp. Where did they end up?
Eileen Breen
October 5, 2012 at 9:16 pm
FFT: From Pennsylvania Rail Road Chronology, June 2004 Edition (Pennsylvania and Columbia Railroad): Entries are from 1832 discussing the cholera epidemic. June 9, 1832: World-wide cholera epidemic reaches North America at Quebec, carried by Irish immigration ships. (Niles Reg).
In early 1830s horses pulled the locomotives – was this a source of contamination of the water supply? In the lower class neighborhoods in Philadelphia water was of poor quality. It wasn’t until after the cholera outbreak that the upper class neighborhoods got their water from the reservoir. This decreased the numbers of those afflicted significantly in three more cholera outbreaks that affected Philadelphia. Deaths were high on canal projects, secondary to crowded, unsanitary conditions.
July 5, 1832: World Wide cholera pandemic reaches Philadelphia. It continues to October 1832. 985 deaths. Is there a listing of this?
August 8, 1832: cholera reaches Washington D.C.
Sept 20, 1832: cholera reaches Cincinnati, OH.
Eileen Breen
October 5, 2012 at 10:10 pm
FFT: I only see the John Stamp listed for June 1832. I looked up the years 1831, 1833 and did not see the name. The Prudence I saw one more time for June 1833. Perhaps these ships were sold after the voyages or if the John Stamp was known to have cholera perhaps it was destroyed. There must be an image of it somewhere because the Discovery channel has an image of the Stamp’s replica. I looked at the Maritime Heritage site and I didn’t see anything on the Stamp or the Prudence. There was a nice article on Ireland including Giant’s Causeway and one about the Port Of Philadelphia with pictures.
Mary Cornell
October 6, 2012 at 5:59 am
I have been looking at the first 23 names on the manifest for the John Stamp and it is obvious why transcriptions would be difficult. The main difficulty comes from handwriting and another would be from lack of knowledge of typical Irish surnames. I think that if you were to read this Don, you would be more apt to come up with an indecipherable name. Line 10 is definitely William Patchill, but for line 17, I am not sure I can get Margaret Sherwood out of it. And for line 23 I am also not sure that Patrick’s last name was Fullerton. It could be Ful, but I can also see the possibility of Fis.
Will definitely be looking for the movie on the 8th.
Don MacFarlane
October 6, 2012 at 7:05 am
Some Possible Errors in John Stamp Transcriptions
After the first page, the print got rather blurred and indecipherable in parts but from the first page alone it appears that Ancestry.com’s attempts at transcription are sometimes wide off the mark.
9 Robert Livingstone (not Leverington)
10 William Patchill (not Patchell)
11 Eliza McGeehan (not McGee)
12 Samuel Bell
13 William Boylan (not Boyll)
16 Samuel McKinney (not McReney)
17 Margaret Sherwood (not Duellman)
32 Wiliam Hastings (not Husting)
36 William Buchan (not Barbour)
55 Barney Rice (not Barry)
62 Charles Mullen (not Smullen)
111 Eleanor McGilligan (not McGettigan)
154 John Mc? (not McClanon?)
Mainly what I take out of this is that the names on the commemorative headstone in West Chester are a concoction of the possible, the mispelt and the non-existent! I am pretty nigh certain that there never was a William Putetill (that should be Patchill and a probable relative of David, both being from outside Ballyshannon); no McGarrity (possibly McGeraghty) or McIlhenney from Donegal; plus some dubious others as well. It remains to be seen if the Watsons will agree that there are big gaping holes in this story yet. We may be relying on Mary for a more balanced acccount of this yet? I will look out for the programme on the 8th.
Eileen Breen
October 5, 2012 at 7:23 pm
Ireland is the only territory that has a smaller population now than it did since the Famine two centuries ago. Since January of this year, over 45,000 people have left Ireland for economic reasons. I just read that in Australia there are groups that help the Irish immigrants with housing and food since many of them are becoming destitute with no money or jobs to support them. In the US the Green Card lottery has opened today. It will probably continue to bleed Ireland of its most important resource to change the economic situation around. They are coming to America and other countries in droves but in the US our economic situation is not much better. When we went to Ireland all the tourists were very eager to buy goods “made in Ireland”. So why are they not building on these skills to make these goods. I read that in Mexico people are readily buying goods “Made In America” because it meant quality. Now we are letting our American companies leave and we buy cheap products from China. Sure, they are cheap but they fall apart right after we buy them. The US and Ireland need to stop buying from countries that exploit their workers and buy products made in our countries. Even Ireland let Waterford Crystal out of Ireland. They sent the company to Germany and tried to pass it off as “Waterford”. There is a huge difference in the quality. Ireland needs to get on the ball before it loses its cottage industry. Americans will pay for quality. in Donegal the woollen mills produce beautiful hand-made woollen clothing. This is not an inexpensive item but tourists were very happy to be shopping there.
Eileen BreenEileen Breen
October 5, 2012 at 2:14 pm
I looked up the ship John Stamp on Ancestry. At the bottom of the page there was an entry by someone researching the Diamond family from Derry. The great grandmother died a few days after getting off the John Stamp from Asiatic Cholera. She was sent to the Blockley Almshouse (Philadelphia General Hospital). It was located around 3rd, 4th, Pine and Spruce Streets in West Philadelphia. I wonder if census records exist for the hospital which was known to be guardians of the poor? The care was dismal at best and in 2001 over 1,000 bodies were recovered from an adjacent construction site and reburied in Woodland Cemetery. This may be also another place to look as perhaps other immigrants from the John Stamp c could be located there. If Ms Rosanna Diamond got Asiatic Cholera only 3 days after the ship disembarked it brings the incubation period much earlier than was thought? I’m sure the ship was not very sanitary. There may be no records though. I saw a program on TV about an asylum in Philadelphia that had a cemetery next to it with no records as to who was buried there. They even built apartment buildings over the site of the asylum and cemetery. Another site to look at is Find a Grave.com.
Eileen BreenEileen Breen
October 5, 2012 at 2:54 pm
I found a woman on Ancestry who claims her Great Grandmother, Rosanna Diamond McQuillin, was passenger #79 on the John Stamp. She was the one that contracted Asiatic Cholera and who died three days after going to the Blockley Almshouse for the Indigent. I have written to her to see what we can find out and I tried to find records for the almshouse but I haven’t found anything yet. The census records are for 1930 and 1940 which are too late and too early. I also looked up Find a Grave with no success. Now that I’m thinking about it, I’m sure the TV Show I saw two years ago about Philadelphia and the Asylum was talking about this Almshouse. They had found multiple graves and three children’s coffins with signs they may have had smallpox. They had said in Philadelphia there are probably thousands of places where cemeteries were placed and then forgotten. Buildings were since built over these forgotten sites.
Mary Cornell
October 5, 2012 at 3:55 am
Hi Eileen- Good to be back on line, too. I was going through major withdrawal. So much so that I even took a stab in the dark and took a guess at an e-mail address for you! Sometimes I think that some of the information we have can be processed faster if we could e-mail each other and proceed from that point, combining information to send to the site and throwing out either duplicates or useless information. How about it Don?
I haven’t gotten to the point of any actual writing as I am still trying to collect information. With what I have now, I do not know how to approach an article that is not a regurgitation of other articles, so your newspaper sources could be very helpful. I have been trying to locate, either in the Philadelphia papers or the Northern Ireland papers, any inquiries from family members looking for lost family in America. I remember that the Boston papers during the 19th century had many classified ads looking for family. And the “West Chester Village Record” looks like it may have articles on the workers. Date October 3 1832 is said to be missing from the archives and an article dated 7 Nov. 1832 retracts the numbers stated for the Irish workers deaths in the 3rd Oct. 1832 article.
As to what I have found while Don has been away, and in response to Don’s inquiry about the John Stamp, Professor Watson said that the John Stamp was the only ship that arrived from Ireland that fitted the time frame. Well, besides the Asia, I also found the Ship Prudence that arrived in Philadelphia from Londonderry on 19 July 1832. The passengers are listed as being from Donegal, Tyrone and Londonderry. Like the other two ships, out of the 110 passengers, 50+ were men under the age of 30. A large majority were from Donegal. If we go by the first story that the men at the Cut died from cholera, the Prudence would have been a more likely choice for the origin of cholera, as it came into port less than four weeks before the deaths. And if we go with that, then John Ruddy would have been one of the workers already working for Duffy. It would also be reasonable to assume that he would be among those staying with Duffy because of his young age.
I also found, I think, Philip Duffy in the 1870 census in Philadelphia. His age is listed as 87 and he is listed as a retired contractor born in Ireland. His assets are listed at $40,000+ – an extremely large sum for 1870. In today’s money, a multi-millionaire.
Glad to see that you were right about the huffing and puffing during the parade season, Don. The last weekend was remarkably calm, but the large police presence probably helped the cause for peaceful marching.
Mary Cornell
September 24, 2012 at 6:12 am
Why were these immigrants being naturalized en masse? I am going to try and answer and it will probably come out sounding like a recruitment poster. They came because they believed in the the ‘American dream’. They were leaving countries that held little opportunity for them and coming to the country that was said to be the ‘land of opportunity’. They believed in the inscription on the Statue of Liberty. They believed in ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’. They came looking for the streets paved in gold. So when they arrived in this ‘promised land’, they became American citizens.
Eileen Breen
September 23, 2012 at 10:44 pm
“The Duff’s Cut Project” from Immaculata University has a website with articles and artifacts found. There are two Irish pipes, one marked Glasgow and the other Derry.
Eileen Breen
September 20, 2012 at 8:57 pm
Don MacFarlane
September 20, 2012 at 10:36 pm
A few questions I have put to Professor Gardiner from Wisconsin (a Patchell descendant) to answer:
Is it certain that the Patchells were originally French Huguenot?
Is there any connnection with Pattischal in Northamptonshire?
Are there other variations of the name, such as Putettil?
If Huguenots, did they come directly over to Ireland after the infamous St Bartholomew’s Day Massacre?
Did they always seem to cling together in communities such as Dublin, Cork and Lisburn?
If so, why are there isolated pockets of them in places such as Ballyshannon, Limavady and Derry?
As Chester PA seems to have been a favourite destination for the Irish Patchell emigrants, how come or are they related? Why would both Ballyshannon and Derry Patchells end up in Chester County PA, is that a coincidence?
Eileen Breen
September 20, 2012 at 11:07 pm
I didn’t find anything on Patischall in Northamptonshire, England. There is a family by that name in N. Carolina but the dates are later. I looked up Patishall, Patetill, Patchell, Patchill, Putehill with no success yet!
if the men were recruited there probably were notices for work in PA. It was common for mills to “paper a city” to advertize for the need for workers. They would be offered passage for a contract to work and that may have been the common denominator.
Does that name appear on the Huguenot memorial in Dublin? Didn’t the Huguenots also come when England disestablished the Presbyterian churches?
Don MacFarlane
September 20, 2012 at 11:24 pm
I am not aware of the Huguenots dispersing much in Ireland. They tended to stick together and where possible to form congregations for worship. That is why it is a little bit of a mystery to find pockets of them in Ballyshannon and outside Limavady in Derry (recorded in Griffiths). It is also a bit of a mystery why they gravitated to Ireland, a country not exactly famous for religious tolerance and strongly Catholic which is what they were trying to escape from. They had a strong presence in Lisburn and were well tolerated there because of their excellent linen-making skills. I am also a bit surprised to find a Huguenot, David Patchell, reduced to being a labourer. My gut feeling is that these Patchells had fallen out of favour with their own kind, so took themselves out to the sticks. My gut feeling also is that the Northern Patchells have to be related to each other, even if only distant.
Don MacFarlane
September 20, 2012 at 11:31 pm
I agree about the mailshots for sailings in newspapers and they were plentiful in the Belfast Telegraph for one. Curious though that emigrants would pick those messages up from papers but still didn’t know how to write or spell their own names?
Don MacFarlane
September 21, 2012 at 8:04 am
1911 Census
These names appear in the 1911 Census and point to the neighourhoods where living relatives of the Duffys Cut martyrs could be found. In the event of newspaper coverage – a long way off yet – in the form of an article, appropriate papers would include the Tyrone Constitution, Tyrone Courier, Strabane Weekly News, Derry Journal, Londonderry Sentinel, Donegal Daily News, Donegal Democrat! Donegal Peoples Press.
Forbes – Ardstraw, Strabane
Devenney – Strabane
McCahill – Binbane, Bonny Glen, Lettermacaward
Patchell – Ballyshannon, Killybegs, Eglinton, Limavady
McIlhenney – Castlefinn; McElhinney – Doocharry
Devine – Killymasny, Laghy
McGlone – Lissan
Quigley – Inishowen
Eileen Breen
September 21, 2012 at 2:16 pm
I think the men knew how to read and do simple math but for the woman it was not considered necessary. Men probably went to school to the 6th grade before they had to contribute to the family as the families were large. Also the advertizements may not only have been in the newspapers but handbills posted around the town. I looked an ancestry in their newspaper collection but haven’t found anything yet.
Eileen Breen
September 21, 2012 at 3:01 pm
21 Aug 1832 Belfast Newsletter. There were several articles on how to cure Cholera. On a ship that left Ireland to New Brunswick they tried brandy and Opium “which was consumed readily”! When this did not work they gave all affected Epsom Salts. There were no more deaths as a result! If the cure didn’t kill you the disease did. There was an article the local medical college was having a class in hygiene! This was to be the newest rage in medicine! There were also some herbal medicines said to cure cholera. that were advertized and that were not available by pharmacies or druggists! Another article spoke about two physicians going to Belfast to check out the Cholera epidemic not allowing people to sell used clothing which could spread the disease.
Eileen Breen
September 21, 2012 at 2:36 pm
In the Belfast Newsletter dated 24 Aug 1832: Cholera Epidemic in Belfast and around Derry. Deaths 322, survived 1790, over 3,000 affected. There is an advertizement for a book on treating Epidemic Cholera. The article lists the affected by town.
Don MacFarlane
September 22, 2012 at 6:06 pm
Is this a reasonable assumption?
Chester County Naturalizations 1798-
It is immediately apparent from a quick scan of Naturalization petitions in Chester County PA that about half of the petitioners were of Irish nationality. As Malvern (where Duffy’s Cut is to this day) is in Chester County, a reasonable assumption can be made that at least a certain percentage of the survivors of the trauma would apply for US nationality within Chester County or head straight back to Ireland or GB. Therefore total absence of the John Stamp names from Naturalization Records might point to no survivors.
Patrick McAnany 1808
George Patchell 1820
Edward Patchell 1824
Mary Cornell
September 22, 2012 at 7:38 pm
It is a reasonable assumption based on the information that we have, but from past experience in trying to locate people, it is also a possibility that survivors left Chester County and might have even left Pennsylvania. They did not return home, but went somewhere else in the States.
Eileen Breen
September 22, 2012 at 10:09 pm
Philadelphia was the largest city near Malvern, PA perhaps the district courts where they would apply would be there?
Don MacFarlane
September 23, 2012 at 8:41 am
Philadelphia Naturalization Records
I have had a cursory look at these through Ancestry.com and my impression is that there are names off the ship Asia that could fit which would make the John Stamp the more likely contender for the Duffy’s Cut crew to have come off. That coupled with the odd dental anatomical anomaly seems to have pinned things down. One would hope so, otherwise who knows what body the Ruddys of Donegal have buried? I also seem to notice that the applicants for naturalization seem to be almost overwhelmingly male? Did that mean that if you had one naturalized close male relative in the US and you were already in the country you got to stay?
Eileen Breen
September 23, 2012 at 12:51 pm
I think with the increasing numbers of immigrants coming to this country, it would have been beneficial to have a family member in the US. The person would then send money home for the next group to come. Often the woman were the unskilled laborers and the men had the skills. This was seen in Australia when they were burdened with thousands of unskilled workers who needed support and childcare and education was not available. Later on you had to have a place to stay and at least $5.00 in your pocket in order to get into the US.
Were there additional boats that brought unsuspecting immigrants after this event, did they use the same shipping lines and did shipping companies or agents they ever have to explain in court what happened to these immigrants. Also I was wondering if there were any medical records of treatment for the men. They may have been given Epsom Salts, brandy or Opium or maybe even quack medicine since no one knew how to treat the disease.
The Patchells in Chester County were Presbyterian and they belonged to St John The Evangelist Church but I didn’t find David or William. I did read that men would only come for six weeks to work so perhaps the Patchells that were in the US supported the men for their brief time there.
Don MacFarlane
September 23, 2012 at 2:54 pm
The Plot Thickens
Although I have only dipped into the lists, most of the names so far of the young male manual workers off the ship Asia are popping up in the Naturalization records for Philadelphia. Turning to the ship John Stamp, most of the young males that did not turn up in Chester County records are also turning up in Philadelphia!
My gut feeling is that there are nothing like the numbers of bodies buried under the railroad that have been quoted, perhaps more like the numbers that one would expect from a cholera outbreak. The majority of the workgang managed to make a break for it and headed straight for Philadelphia, perhaps to hide in and close enough to a port that they could escape if tracked down in the event that they had to be silenced.
Mary Cornell
September 23, 2012 at 7:02 pm
John Ruddy’s identification is most likely correct. No argument on that point. What I am pointing to is a ‘what if’…..hypothetically, what if only 30 (random number) of the men were from the John Stamp, where would the other 27 be from. Don’s latest findings has more worms coming out of the can. Were the men you are finding from the John Stamp in the Naturalization records even at the Cut?
The United States in the 19th century had open borders. No passports, work visas or green cards required. Once you were in the country, you had little to fear of being sent back. This was pretty much the case into the 20th century. Deportation was used only in the case of ‘undesirables’, usually felons. It did help the immigrants if there was already someone here, but they had little to fear when it came to being sent back.
Don MacFarlane
September 23, 2012 at 7:26 pm
I am puzzled by the fact that Naturalization wasn’t necessary – were there benefits to be had from Naturalization which were separate from a removal of any threat of deportation? Why did people bother to apply at all?
I haven’t got really deep into checking the identity of the people that pop up in the Philadelphia records but I think the odds are reasonably good with the less common names that there would,for example, not be more than two of each of these names coming from Ireland to PA in 1832 – James Baird, William Barbour, James Cully, Samuel Forbes, James Devanney, John Long and Samuel McKenny. I have not subscribed yet to Ancestry.com to check if their ages match. All these names came as labourers on the John Stamp and only Forbes and Devanney are on the memorial. Prof Watson has not indicated to me how he arrived at the conclusion that 47 of the crew came off the ship nor why only certain names are on the plaque.
Eileen Breen
September 24, 2012 at 12:02 am
I looked up names on the memorial and I tried to find their naturalization records in NY and PA with no success. I did notice the names that were listed on Ancestry.com but they were from about 80-100 years later.
The petitions for naturalization are from 1790-1970 on ancestry and the Declaration of Intent was made when the immigrant first arrived. Sometimes they made a Naturalization Oath at this time or during the second step in the process. The Declaration Of Intent was exempt for some people. The second step was made after a 5 year residency period and during that time a Petition For Naturalization was made. The Oath might be made then and there were no set standards to this naturalization process until 1906. Perhaps that’s why were not seeing any records from 1832.
A pipe they found was from Derry and the other was from Glasgow. Were any of the men from Glasgow?
Don MacFarlane
September 24, 2012 at 7:42 am
Ancestry.com Errors?
So, when I enter eg. Samuel Forbes into the on-line Philadelphia Naturalization database, along with ‘Ireland’ for Original Location and ‘1832 +/- 10 years’ for Declaration of Intent, the name it comes up with is from a hundred years later?
I have not subscribed yet to Ancestry.com yet to look in more depth but if it is so unreliable I don’t think I’ll bother. That’s a pity as I was thinking the existence of such records might partially compensate for the unavailability of Irish records for that period.
With regard to the pipe with Glssgow carved on it, there were a few older men on the ship that might have tried their luck in Glasgow first, or a pipe might have been a going-away gift from an older male relative, or (there is nothing to suggest this) the ship’s initial point of departure might have been Glasgow?
Eileen Breen
September 24, 2012 at 12:28 pm
I didn’t mean the dates attached to the Duffy’s Cut men were incorrect. So far I couldn’t find Naturalization records from 1832. I meant that there were similar names, coming from Donegal, Tyrone and Derry to NY and PA in the 1900’s immigrating to America .This hinting to a familiar tie in those places both in America and in Ireland. For EX; Ancestry naturalization records and other records seem accurate. Discrepancies come during the US Census when census workers asked citizens questions. Sometimes names, place of birth, date of arrival are incorrect due to transcription error at the time the records were recorded. Ancestry tries to make sure the records are as accurate as possible and they show the actual images of the records. I think Ancestry has an amazing site. You can do a free 2 week trial.
Don MacFarlane
September 22, 2012 at 11:49 am
Prof Gardiner has come back to say he cannot throw any light on these queries or anything to do with Patchells other than his own relative, the Colonel. He would like to be kept informed of any progress made however. Meantime I have contacted my acquaintance, Dr William Roulston (Ulster-Scots social historian and genealogist), for any ideas he might have about the authenticity of the names or research tips. I am determined to root out the truths of this story but other topics can be posted as normal rather than be monopolised by Duffy’s Cut.
Mary Cornell
September 22, 2012 at 6:56 pm
The Patchells in ChesterCounty seem to be very well placed in the county by 1832. Possibility that David and William were related to the already present Patchells when they came over on the John Stamp. If so, their living in the shanty town is odd. Are we even sure that they were among the 57 at Duffy’s Cut? Have the names on the memorial and those Don has posted as being the workers who were killed been verified as being among Duffy’s workers? Except for John Ruddy, the others may be only guesses.
The present day find seems to be very well covered in most of the Northern Ireland newspapers. I am still trying to locate any reports in the 1832 newspapers, nothing yet, but there was coverage of cholera in the various towns. Possibility that the relatives in NI placed advertisements in PA papers looking for the lost men.
Observation- We are starting to narrow the focus when it should probably be widened. There is, as yet, no way to verify anything that we may find on identities until it can be clearly linked to a family in NI, then and now.
Don MacFarlane
September 22, 2012 at 8:07 pm
Good point. There was such a heavy influx of Irish immigrants into Chester County prior to 1832 for example that a goodly number of these lads, the Patchells being some, might have had relatives waiting for them in PA and they could have been immune to Duffy’s blandishments. In other words, they could tell him to get lost as they were already fixed up.
Don MacFarlane
September 22, 2012 at 10:44 pm
Prof Watson’s Position
” We believe that forty seven of the men came from the ship, and ten from Duffy’s crew from the West Chester line were living with him at a rented home a mile south of the site. We believe that most if not all of the “laborers” on the ship John Stamp came to the work site. But the names we decided should go onto the monument were determined by standard genealogical protocols, and represent men who absolutely vanished from the record after arrival”.
“That the John Stamp was indeed the ship comes from the railroad file account that said the men had just arrived in America prior to theirAugust deaths, and between Jan-Oct 1832, this is the only ship ito Philadelphia coming directly from Ireland with a large number of manual laborers. From what we know of standard P & C practices, they would have been picked up at the docks by the contractor or his agentand transported out to the work site–hence with a late June arrival”.
” We are looking at a six to eight week timeframe until they were dead. We excavated seven graves. Of the fifteen names of the “vanished;” only one could be identified due to hisage (an 18 year old, determined by the fusing of the cranium), and we
conjectured it was John Ruddy from Donegal. When that his the Irish press, we instantly got replies from interested parties due to the factthat the remains had a very rare (1 in many thousands) dental anomaly that is still apparent in the Ruddy family in Donegal today”.
“We realise there are many transcription errors in contemporary 1832 records of this type in America-the same as later at Ellis Island circa 1900”.
Mary Cornell
September 23, 2012 at 5:24 am
The reason why I question the assertion of the laborers all coming from the John Stamp is because on 18th of June 1832, the ‘Asia’ arrived in Philadelphia from Londonderry. There were a large number of families, but there were also many young men who listed their occupation as farmer. Farming was their occupation in Northern Ireland. It is possible that they were not farmers after they arrived. It is not logical to think that these men would immediately go out, buy land, and start farming. They may have been able to get work on a farm, but how much work was available in the area at the time?
Don MacFarlane
October 4, 2012 at 4:44 pm
From Prof Frank Watson of the Duffy’s Cut Project.
Regarding the names of the John Stamp laborers and Duffy’s Cut, I did the primary work on the genealogical search for these names on the American side for our Project (as well as the genealogical search for Philip Duffy – we have him from the point of his immigration to America to his death.
Thank you for looking at this from a different angle but I do have a few questions regarding your findings. As an archivist, I have conducted a good amount of genealogical searches over the years, and I do know that names can be mis-spelled and incorrectly transcribed (American census and immigration records are notorious for this) and that records are only as good as those who keep them.
It looks like you are using the John Stamp ship list transcription of 2008 by Harry Green of the Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild. We have consulted that but we primarily used the digitized copy of the original ship list in our research. There are some clear discrepancies between the transcription and the original ship register. I think that is where some of my questions come into play and thus my curiosity regarding the corrections to the John Stamp ship list that you suggest. Specifically, I have questions regarding the following names:
Among the names from Donegal:
1) Bernard McGarrity (this name on the John Stamp list actually reads Bernie McGarty; the last name is spelled like the actress Shona McGarty;
2) William Houston (there is no William Houston at all on the ship; there is a 16 year old named John Houston);
3) Brian McGourley (there is no one whatsoever with this name on the John Stamp list)
Among the names from Tyrone:
1) Samuel McKenny (there is no McKenny on the John Stamp ship list; I guess the assumption is that the John Stamp spelling of McKiney is wrong — but the name McKinney is a popular Irish surname – and as for abbreviated forms of Irish surnames, my brother and I have an Irish ancestor who came to America in the 19th century whose surname was Donley, from an original spelling of Donnelly;
2) William Barbour (would we believe here that there was a misspelling from the name Barber which is on the ship list, and which is a popular Irish surname?; and if this is the assumption, why would we assume this?);
3) James Devenney (would we assume that there was a misspelling from Devaney which is in the ship list; if so, why would we assume this?)
4) Patrick McCanning (this surname spelling is from the transcription copy and not the original ship list).
Eileen Breen
September 22, 2012 at 11:37 pm
There are many Patchell or variations of the name living in Chester Co., PA. They are Listed as Protestants. Church: St John The Evangelist
Mary Cornell
September 20, 2012 at 8:31 pm
Just a few odds and ends before I start posting findings on the other site-
Karma at work? The Barque John Stamp sunk off the coast of Northern Ireland at Rossglass in 1839. They were able to salvage the load of raw cotton it was carrying.
In Aug. of 1832, the John Stamp was advertising in the New Brunswick papers for cabin passenger berths still available for the return to Liverpool.
In several of the articles that I have read, there is mention of a newspaper article written on Phillip Duffy in 1829 about his search for hardworking Irish lads to come to America. What paper do you think that might have been, Don? Haven’t been able to locate the article.
Have also been combing the census’ before and after 1832 looking for Duffy; especially for one right before (1830) since it says that many of the workers often stayed at his home. I also have yet to find him afterwards. Could he have been one of those who died? The mention of the laundress intrigues me. I wonder if she was a sister or mother of one of boys and may also be listed on the John Stamp passenger list.
Laid to Rest, but are they at Peace- http://www.philly.com/philly/multimedia/BC1498555242001.html
Eileen Breen
September 20, 2012 at 1:18 pm
There are also several entries for John Patchell in Philadephia, PA in US census with his family living on Olive Street. He’s listed as a laborer.
Don MacFarlane
September 20, 2012 at 5:13 pm
Perhaps you could check if there is any possible connection between David, Jane and Colonel James Patchell, who led the 102nd PA Regiment at the Battle of Cedar Creek. Wouldn’t it be ironic if David, who was treated so ignominiously, was an uncle, cousin or some other relative of an all-American hero? Granted, James is said to have come from a Derry branch of the clan, whereas Immaculata has David as from Donegal. Still?
http://cwdpa102ndregimentvolinf.com/colonel_james_patchell.htm
The Patchells were probably from Patishall in Northamptonshire in England and of French Huguenot origin, not typical ‘native’ Irish. David, an Ulster Protestant, was willing to dirty his hands and break honest sweat with work companions of either religion. That part of Donegal outside Ballyshannon was then two-thirds Protestant and one-third Catholic but probably not that today.
If we take William Putetill as actually being a Patchell, could you check if that name also appears anywhere in this connection?
Mary Cornell
September 17, 2012 at 6:15 am
This 2009 lecture by Janet Monge, curator and anthropologist at the Pennsylvania Museum, is on the first three bodies excavated from Duffy’s Cut. I found it to be extemely fascinating when she begins discussing the forensic pathology of the bones which is about 30 minutes into the lecture. The owners of the bones are said to be ‘massively muscled’ and at the same time, ‘sick’, due to a life time of poor health. At one point she is relating that the findings on one of the skulls indicate evidence of acute anemia which, according to Dr. Monge, was not a problem seen in the Irish. My inclination is to disagree on this point. Don, you are more knowledgeable on this subject than I am, wouldn’t there have been anemia in the poorer Irish?
She finds that there seems to be evidence of blunt force trauma on the skulls. Her conclusion is that, even though it is impossible to detect evidence of cholera in bone material, she believes it is possible but highly unlikely that they had cholera, but that they died from blows to the head. Her lecture is extremely informative.
Don MacFarlane
September 17, 2012 at 11:18 pm
There is more work to do on it yet, firstly to get the names right. Then there might be a hope of habilitating the deceased with their families, much as with the Ruddys? A number of the people on the monument are definitely incorrectly named due probably to the distinctive Ulster accent that transposes e with a and g with c.
Hence, McLanon=McGlennon; McAnamy=McConomy; Devenney=Devanney; McGarrity=McGeraghty. I will acquaint Prof Watson with these anomalies and he can decide what to do about it. What puzzles me is why these names are on the monument at all. If they did not show up on later censuses, therefore presuming them to be dead, there is little surprise there if the name was wrongly understood. The good thing is, now they have been clearly identified, these names are very distinctive and their places of origin can be pinpointed.
Eileen Breen
September 17, 2012 at 11:34 pm
When I did my family tree it was surprising how many names were misspelled and locations were incorrect. Every census was different. The older records were more accurate such as death and birth records. Early ship manifests did not have accurate information. As you said the accent also played a big part in how the names were recorded. In my family the French Canadian name Bourque was probably heard by an Irish census taker and the name was recorded as the Irish last name of Burke. It would be interesting to see if there are any relatives remaining in Ireland or USA of the victims. Maybe there are some armchair historians who could provide some information. Also what about newspapers from this time period or ship manifests. You had mentioned the men may have been recruited. In my city the men who owned the mills recruited men and woman from all over Europe to work in the mills. Maybe there is some evidence in local Ireland or PA histories. In my city we have one account of those who were recruited and what mill they went to.
Don MacFarlane
September 18, 2012 at 8:38 am
Cholera Outbreaks
If the plan from Duffy’s Cut was to nip any cholera outbreak in PIttsburg PA in the bud it clearly didn’t work:
http://www.pa-roots.com/index.php/allegheny-county/59-allegheny-county-data/479-daily-morning-post-1854-cholera-outbreak
A call went out to Pittsburg citizens ” In another day, if a little more attention is paid to the cleansing of our filthy alleys and lanes the disease will have lost its epidemic form. A heavy thunderstorm has helped to clear the atmosphere and if it is followed up by another we will be content”.
Clearly there was no proper understanding yet from the health authorities as to the cause of the disease which was being blamed on an atmospheric miasma rather than a need for personal cleanliness. A further health message went on to say ” We notice that few families are called upon to lament more than one of their number. This affords strong proof of the non-contagious character of the distemper and will banish the foolish prejudice that leads to the sufferer dying from want of attention”.
Typically, death occurred within a few hours of the appearance of first symptoms. Over the course of a fortnight there were over 420 deaths.
Eileen Breen
September 18, 2012 at 12:09 pm
Is it possible the workers from Derry brought Cholera with them?
Don MacFarlane
September 18, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Unlikely as contact with a source of infection takes at most five days, and usually as little as a few hours, before it manifests itself in a disease. Once it takes a grip, cholera takes about twelve hours to kill. Hence, the John Stamp would have been known as a cholera ship long before it reached PA.
Interesting aside, the simply washing of hands after toilet prevents the disease but as many women (normally considered more scrupulous in these matters) were struck down as men.
Eileen Breen
September 18, 2012 at 11:15 pm
I wonder if more woman were affected because they played the caretaker in the household. It’s amazing how many lives were taken by this preventable disease. I was also curious that by handling the remains of affected persons could the disease manifest itself like in Small Pox?
Mary Cornell
September 19, 2012 at 5:19 am
Another Possible Scenario
The bodies that have been found outside of the rails were the original nine who died, whether it was from cholera, yellow fever or gross negligence. The ones who were placed under the rails were the ones who were killed by the railroad in order to silence them. Would a group of fit but young and inexperienced young men, who were probably not armed, stand by to be killed? I think the answer to that is yes. Whether by surprise or sheer numbers, along with weapons, they would have easily been overwhelmed.
For the unknown names – McCanamy could be McNamee and its derivatives; McCanning could be Mckenna or McKinney. A bit of a stretch, but how about Scanlon for Skelton. Their Irish accents would have been very strong. The one that is a mystery is Putetill. I am of the mind to think that it is a spelling mistake, but also a transcription error, based on the flourish type of letters used in the handwriting back then. It is very difficult to distinguish F, P, and T. So how about Tuthill or Tuttle for Putetill? Is a scan of the log of the John Stamp available?
Don MacFarlane
September 19, 2012 at 7:42 am
Yes, these are very definitely good suggestions that would fit – especially McNamee and McKenna (or McKinney), names that are prevalent in North-West Ulster. Skelton does exist but at a different location to that recorded; Putethill is anybody’s guess.
What bothers me is that the identification process has been rather slapdash. The equipment is suggestive of bodies under the rails (that’s fine) but as I understand it there is no way of knowing how many or how few? There is a big assumption that nearly fifty bodies are unaccounted for but what is to say that most of these boys didn’t just head back to Ireland with two month’s wages, having had enough?
More seriously, the tracing that has gone on has been extremely cursory and that is being kind. As any enthusiastic amateur can tell, it can take many years’ search to trace even one Irish ancestor, never mind fifty, with so little clues. And serious cutting of corners where a person has been presumed dead just because their name does not turn up on later censuses, even though their name has been wrongly transcribed. How can McCanamy and McLanon, for example, turn up on a headstone when these names are clearly in error?
Mary, if you are so-minded (shock/horror) why don’t you write this saga up as a chapter and I will stick it in my book when it is published (as it will, never fear)? I am putting it on hold till I get chapters in on ‘The Hairy Man’ and ‘The Bussorah Merchant’ so there is time.
Eileen Breen
September 19, 2012 at 1:04 pm
The film stated that the people who were digging up the bodies were not anthropologists. It appears they were students working with an instructor from Penn. The woman who gave the lecture was not really fluent in her knowledge of the subjects and in 1830 in Ireland the records are scarce at best. I spent a lot of time trying to locate relatives in Derry from this time period. Also in the early censuses in US there is very little information on them.
The Discovery channel did another documentary “Waking The Dead” about an apartment building with a a dirt floor. When they were excavating they found 3 small child size coffins from 1700’s. Upon inspecting the bodies the found the babies had Small Pox. Later they discovered the apartment building was at a former sanitarium site. The paupers were buried in a graveyard next to the sanitarium. After the sanitarium was torn down the apartment building was built over the graveyard. The writer of the film said in Philadelphia there are many cases like these.
Don MacFarlane
September 19, 2012 at 2:50 pm
I sent an email to Prof Watson about my queries on the authenticity of the names and of the census searches. He didn’t take the hump and he said he would pass the message onto his colleagues. I am not going to let him off that easily however and I will keep digging in the figurative sense. If there is a chapter to be written, it could be along critique and revisionist lines similar to the Lulan story.
Feel free to chip in with Mary if she decides to delve into this more and to write a piece on it. I think you could make a good team – my impression is that Mary has a very analytical mind and you have a very lively intellectual curiosity and a great capacity for lateral thinking. Obviously that combination, normally to be considered an asset, was something strangely that Winnie could not cope with (!). If you do decide to delve more, I have opened a page on The Duffy Cut on my other website and feel free to go to town with the story on that page as well or instead.
If a proper story and valid account could be resurrected it could be circulated through the local papers in Tyrone, Donegal and Derry. Despite not being religious, I am spiritual and I have this feeling that these people should be respected, their stories told correctly and their memories put to rest.
http://celtdomain.com
Talking about lateral thinking, I had a fleeting thought that the mysterious Putchetill name might be Patchell and a relative. Strange that they both start with P, have the TCH in the middle and end with L? Also, I have come across a Michael Higgins who has a website on the 69thPA Regiment who also thinks the names Putetill and Patchell are the same!
http://www.69thpa.co.uk/
Finally, a John Patchell (24), farmer from Ballyshannon, left from Derry a year later on the Cruikstoun Castle bound for Delaware – possibly to look for or join a relative?
Don MacFarlane
September 19, 2012 at 4:12 pm
Where to Start?
Suggested names and locations to chip away at this. From the 1911 Census, the following names are still prevalent in Donegal and sufficiently distinctive:
Elliott *** – Ballyshannon
Ewing** – Manorcunningham
Fullerton** – Rosnakill
Houston** – Maghery
Daniel McCahill** – Binbane
Bernard McIlhenney* – Castlefinn
David Patchell** – Ballyshannon
I see already that a John Patchell (24), farmer from Ballyshannon, left a year later (1833) on the Cruikston Castle from Derry to Delaware – en route to PA to search for his relative?
Mary Cornell
September 19, 2012 at 6:02 pm
I did get the feeling that Dr, Watson blew off your question on the identities of the remains. It seemed the identity of these men is not important to Dr. Watson. As for any kind of research to their identities, a cursory one would have been in-depth compared to what they did. Absence from the census does not mean a death has occurred. As both you and Eileen can attest to, it usually means that we are not looking in the right place.
Are there records from the railroad company that show the names because, after looking at the passenger list on immigrantships.net, there were over one hundred people who sailed out of Derry in Aug. 1832 on the Barque John Stamp. There is also a notation that there is a discrepancy with the dates. It is listed as sailing in Aug 1832 but the Captain signed April 1832. Looking at the other passenger names, these men may have come over with other relatives.
Explain ‘so-minded’. Seriously, writing a chapter on this should be a collaborative effort from all of us! There is so much of the story that is missing and putting all of our heads together maybe we can write a chapter that would be some sort of quiet tribute to these men. I agree that these men deserve more than what they were given in this life and who were tossed away like yesterday’s rubbish. Whether there are 57 or 10, they deserve better.
Your comments on different kinds of burials made me think, Eileen, about Irish burial customs. Would it be possible to tell if they were buried according to Irish custom? It would have been the case if the other Irish workers had buried them, no matter what country they were in when they died. If there isn’t any indication of any Irish custom, they probably weren’t buried by an Irishman.
Don MacFarlane
September 19, 2012 at 11:18 pm
The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut
This 2006 book by Prof Watson and colleagues, ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’, makes nary a mention of murder. All the deaths are put down to cholera and the only foul play inferred is to do with the cover-up. The allegation of murder appeared around 2009. Interestingly, the book refers to cholera hospitals that were set up at intervals along the railway line by Superintendent Mitchell. This fact brings all sorts of implications with it – why murder this particular workforce if cholera was known to be rife; why the sudden hysteria from the local populace as the appearance of cholera was something that was dreaded but nothing new; why the conflicting stories about the heroic blacksmith versus the angelic Sisters of Charity; who were the mysterious vigilantes and at whose bidding did they perpetrate foul deeds? Also, Prof Monge’s spin on the episode is largely at variance with the book – no cholera in the region, more likely yellow fever. Perhaps I missed something but I don’t remember reading or hearing anything about musket balls or holes in the skull that could definitively be said to be from muskets? All I remember Prof Monge making a vague reference to was possible metallic residue in the area of the skull fractures.
Eileen Breen
September 19, 2012 at 11:45 pm
Only two of the men were buried in coffins. This seems like a Christian burial whether Catholic, Protestant or another Christian religion. In a Catholic tradition people are buried in coffins (modern day) and a wake is held either one or two days before. In 1800s to 1950s, wakes were held in the home. Perhaps there is a newspaper account of the two men thatbannounced a wake and a funeral. If the men came by themselves from Ireland the wake may not have happened.
In early Ireland when they had the Famine often one couldn’t afford coffins. They would have a coffin one could “borrow”. It had a trap door on the bottom and after the service the body would be buried in a shallow grave. The coffin could be used for multiple burials. I also wonder if it also had to do with a lack of wood. Early on in Ireland all the forests were cut down and even today you don’t see a lot of forests there, just man-made timber farms. In Pennsylvania there would have been plenty of forests and skilled craftsmen to make the coffins.
I think the first two men were buried according to a Christian burial. It seems the other men and the woman were murdered and were buried in a hurried fashion without a religious burial. Perhaps it was to hide the fact the men went missing and were murdered. I’m curious if the first two men who were buried in a coffin also had the musket balls in their scalp or did they die just from the Cholera. If so, did this start the panic as people feared dying from Cholera and then thisvled to the murders of the others? I agree with Don that an accurate account of what happened needs to be determined.
My other concern was if these men were indentured servants, they would be contracted to give 14 years service for passage to America. For children it was 7 years. Less than 50% of the people survived being indentured due to cruel masters and poor, unbearable working conditions. There was probably not a union early on. Later unions were in the Railroads. So I don’t think these men just walked away from there. If they did try they might have been killed b/c they would have cost the railroad owners money in lost wages. This could be a point of dispute over working conditions and the threat of leaving. Perhaps this is how the unions got started. They wanted safer working conditions like the Molly Macquires a union/ violent gang who were also from Derry and were in Pennsylvania. The issue w/ them was Catholic workers against the Protestant railroad owners. Could this also been an issue here? (Catholics VS Protestants)
Eileen Breen
September 20, 2012 at 12:46 am
On October 8th at 10pm and October 12th at 2pm the Smithsonian is having a full program on The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut. There are three video clips that on the site now. One highlighted a newspaper article and a file that was hidden in an office saying not to release the file about the Duffy’s Cut murders. If you go to the Smithsonian site under History you’ll find it.
Don MacFarlane
September 20, 2012 at 8:24 am
There is a nice seven minute video segment on the bottom of the page on
http://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/date/2012/03/11
Dr Bechtel puts it nicely at the end of the clip when he says “I want to see those boys go home!”, although I understand the plan is to have unidentified bones buried in Chester County PA. Even if unidentified, why not have them buried in Ireland? They have lain under that tree for almost two hundred years, a short further wait pending a concerted genealogical effort would not hurt but I don’t think this is currently on the cards. I think the Patchell/Putchetill boys are the ones to focus on to get that ball rolling.
Eileen Breen
September 16, 2012 at 11:31 pm
The Irish Times dated 16 Sept 2012: There is a 7 minute video on the child abuse by the Catholic Priests from for orders of priests. These priests had access to thousands of children from childhood to young adults in US, Canada, Ireland, Sierra Leone and well as around the globe. There are only a few priests that have been convicted. It is believed that not all of the former students in their care have come forward. In the video it highlights the number of cases by each order, how many stepped forward, the number of priests convicted and those who have not. It also discusses those who stood by and did nothing!
Don MacFarlane
September 16, 2012 at 3:24 pm
Theresa Villiers
There’s an interesting twist! Her ancestor, Earl of Clarendon, was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland at the time of the Great Famine and he failed to prevent mass starvation in the country, despite also being one of the most major landowners in the west of Ireland at the time when the famine hit hardest.
Don MacFarlane
September 16, 2012 at 7:09 am
I had the same thought myself, many of these lads were not long out of short pants and they had not developed the muscular strength and stamina of older men. I mean to contact Professors Watson when I am good and ready and thanks for the lead on this story, Mary. I had come across it before but I had put it somewhere to the back of my mind.
Don MacFarlane
September 16, 2012 at 6:52 am
As far as I know none of those three are Irish citizens. The leader would likely be from Labour to be impartial or someone with no political allegiance to a main party? Some inspirational figure would be good like Bob Geldof, God forbid! Or maybe a chat show host like Ryan Tubridy? Or the President, Michael D Higgins, give him something to do? Mark you, the two previous Presidents (Robinson and McAleese) were professors of constitutional law and they did nothing with the constitution so the boat has maybe sailed?
They are to look at fringe and uncontroversial matters mainly so they don’t fall out – like voting age, length of Presidency, women’s role in public life and same sex marriage. Nothing there about abortion rights or protection of the citizen from rogue bankers which are the real hot potatoes.
Mary Cornell
September 16, 2012 at 4:53 am
Is this to be a Republican convention or a multi-party convention designed to make the government better for all of Ireland, with the participants truly wishing to make a better Ireland? I do not wish to sound snarky, but… or will it be a convention where each party is there to make sure that their views are the only ones addressed and any changes made are only the ones done in favor of themselves? It is difficult to not be cynical when there are always the same players with the same agenda.
Don MacFarlane
September 9, 2012 at 9:09 am
Ulster-Scots Thesaurus
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/voices/atilazed/s.shtml
Good ones to try out without looking like an eejit! Many are used as terms of mild abuse, taken as a sign of affection and familiarity, and all expressions should be said with a little bit of oomph for the proper effect. All of these terms are in common every-day usage. Many of the expressions can be preceded by the word ‘pure’ (P in brackets) or ‘right’ (R in brackets) for extra effect.
Affronted (P,R)
Banjaxed (especially after a night’s drinking)
Boggin (P)
Boys-a-boys
Clampet
Crabbit (P,R)
Dab-hand (R)
Dander
Dead-on
Done-in (means the same as done-out)
Dose (P,R)
Drooth (R)
Eariwig
Famished (P)
Fornenst
Foundered (R)
Girn
Give over
Glory Hole
Gobshite (R)
Gorb (R) (as in greedy gorb)
Gulder (preceded by ‘let out a’)
Gulpin (R)
Half-cut
Hallion (as in greedy hallion)
Hoke (as in hoke out)
Hoof (as in hoof it)
Don MacFarlane
September 9, 2012 at 9:48 am
More Ulster-Scots Lingo
Try one out every day and slip it into ordinary conversation, though with some care in case of unintended offence. My sister-in-law, while nursing in Atlanta, accused someone of having a pointy head. This was taken as some sly dig that the recipient of the remark had Ku Klux Klan sympathies!
Deuk (as in take a deuk at)
Keek (as in take a keek at)
Keep ‘er lit
Lig
Measly (R)
Mind
Mingin (P)
Mizzling
Mooch
Molyee (R)
Naff
Nark (R)
Now (as in Ah Now, said to indicate you are being told a yarn)
Odd as get out
On the rip
Piggin (P)
Plastered (P)
Pointy head
Pure mustard
Quare and thick
Rightly
Saft in the head
Scunner (R)
Sleekit (P)
Spittin
Targe (as in a right targe)
Through other
Up the left
Up to high doh
Up to my oxters
Don MacFarlane
September 8, 2012 at 6:21 am
The Best of Irish
The brilliant and delightful Colonel Catherine ‘Cady’ Coleman USAF, astronaut, physicist and descendant of the Fennessys of Tipperary. Fennessys are thought to have been of Viking heritage and as such were fearless travellers in search of new horizons. Her horizons extend far beyond Carlisle Circus and she plays the flute a lot better. Way to go, Cady!
Cady’s silver flute was gifted to her by her accompanist, Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull. She also owns an old Irish flute gifted to her by Matt Molloy and a tin whistle by Paddy Moloney, both of the Chieftains. She obviously has a very exclusive fanclub!
Mary Cornell
September 8, 2012 at 5:13 am
I find it very strange that the Titanic was not at least mentioned in school..hmmm
Speaking of those with total disregard for human life…Mr. Uris did do his homework on the famine. I found this information in an article entitled “How British Free Trade Starved Millions During Ireland’s Potato Famine.” http://american_almanac.tripod.com/potato.htm
Some unimaginable quotes- Trevelyan, on the starving Irish -“The problem of Irish overpopulation being altogether beyond the power of man, the cure had been supplied by the stroke of an all-wise Providence.”
From a Lord Chancellor Bowes of Dublin- “The law does not suppose any such person to exist as an Irish Roman Catholic.”
And finally an excerpt from the article- “Incredibly, large exports of foodstuffs from Ireland continued right through 1848 and 1849, which were the years in which the Irish population fell rapidly from 8 million to 6 million through death and emigration (and 40 percent of the emigrants died in crossing the Atlantic alone). In November 1848, exports of food from Cork in a single day, were 147 bales of bacon, 255 barrels of pork, 5 casks of hams, 3,000 sacks and barrels of oats, 300 bags of flour, 300 head of cattle, 239 sheep, 542 boxes of eggs, 9,300 firkins [about one-fourth of a barrel] of butter, and 150 casks of miscellaneous foodstuffs. But an inspector of the Public Works in Cork in the same month wrote about the public “workfare” rolls: “The lists are useless. No one answers their name. They have gone, or are dead.”
So in the midst of millions dying from starvation, the British were exporting tons of food out of Ireland! It is not inconceivable that on the Protestant controlled docks of Derry and Belfast that the Orange Orders and the Protestant Churches could bring in food supplies for their members. Hoping they choked on their food.
Don MacFarlane
September 8, 2012 at 8:11 am
THE DESTITUTION OF IRELAND
The following is a copy of a letter from Commander Caffin, R.N., commanding Her Majesty’s steam sloop Scourge, dated Feb. 15 [1847].
My Dear Sir
Having, in the course of my late duty of discharging a cargo of meal at Schull in County Cork, being brought into direct contact with the distress that prevails there and in the neighbourhood, I venture to lay before you that which I saw. In the village of Schull three-fourths of the inhabitants you meet are reduced to mere skeletons, the men in particular, all their features wasted away; they have all become beggars. In landing the meal, they used all the cunning they possessed, to avoid detection, in cutting open the mouths of the bags and purloining the contents; and it required great watchfulness to prevent it.
Having a great desire to see with mine own eyes some of the misery which was said to exist, Dr. Traill, the rector of Schull, offered to drive me to a portion of his parish. I found there was no need to take me beyond the village to show me the horrors of famine in its worst features. There I saw the reality of the whole – no exaggeration. Dr Traill’s parish is 21 miles in extent, with about 18,000 souls and not more than half a dozen gentlemen in the whole of it. He drove me about five of six miles; but we commenced our visits before leaving the village. The first was a cabin and in it were three young women and one young man, and three children, all crouched over a fire, and the picture of misery. The father and mother were in bed, the father the most wretched picture of starvation possible to conceive, his power of speech gone! the mother but a little better, her cries for mercy and food were heartrending. They had been well to do in the world, with their cow and a few sheep, and potatoe ground; their crops failed, and their cattle were stolen. They had taken their cow and sheep into the cabin with them every night but they were stolen in the daytime.
In another cabin were a mother and her daughter. Dr Traill, on putting his head inside the hole which answered for a door, said ‘Well, Phillis, how is your mother today?’ She replied, ‘Mother is dead!’ And there, fearful reality, was the daughter, a skeleton herself, crouched and crying over the lifeless body of her mother, which was on the floor, cramped up as she had died, with her rags and her cloak about her, by the side of a few embers of peat. In the next room were three young children belonging to the daughter, whose husband had run away from her, all pictures of death. The poor creature said she did not know what to do with the corpse, she had no means of getting it removed, and she was too exhausted to remove it herself.
In another cabin, the door of which was stopped with dung, was a poor woman who burst into tears upon seeing the doctor, and said she had not been able to sleep since the corpse of the woman had laid in her bed. The poor creature was passing this miserable cabin and asked the old woman to allow her to rest herself for a few moments. She had lain down, but never rose up again. She died in an hour or so from sheer exhaustion. The body had remained in this hovel of six feet square, with the poor woman for four days; she could not get anybody to remove it. She said she trusted her sins were pardoned. She had prayed earnestly for forgiveness. She had been a wicked sinner, but God was merciful, and her Saviour was all-sufficient. She thought she could die, and longed to depart and be at peace, and she had blocked up the door that she might not be disturbed. She had some money but living four or five miles from the village, she could not get any food.
I am convinced in that district it is not in human power to stay the evil; it may be to alleviate it: but this must be by a good organized system, and the supply chiefly gratuitous. I am of opinion a number of naval surgeons should be employed, having under their orders a number of men to have charge of certain districts, not only dispensing medicine where it may be required, but also food, on an order of the relief committee, to any person in their district. A board of health is also new wanted, as it cannot be expected but a pestilence will rage when the mass of these bodies decomposes. They have ceased to put them into coffins, or to have the funeral service performed, and they merely lay them a few inches under the soil.
I could tell you also of bodies half eaten by rats; of two dogs being shot whilst tearing a body to pieces; of his mother-in-law stopping a poor woman, and asking her what she had on her back? and being replied to that it was her son, telling her she would smother it. But the poor emaciated woman said it was dead anyway, and she was going to dig a hole in the churchyard for it. I have given the counterpart of this letter to Sir Hugh Pigot [Commander-in-Chief on the Cork Station>.
J. CRAWFORD [sic] CAFFIN
P.S. There have been two or three post mortems of those who have died and they find that the inner membrane of the stomach turns into a white mucus, as if nature had supported herself upon herself, until exhaustion of all the humours of the system has taken place.
Footnote: Another tragic missal from Commander Caffin from his relief operation further up the coast in Mayo can be seen at:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/692278
Commander (later Rear Admiral Sir Crawford Caffin) – unrelated I think to the contemporaneous and unfortunately named Sir Edward Pine Coffin who was in charge of Scottish relief operations in 1847 – served with distinction as well as humanity in the British Royal Navy all his working life. His Irish experience must have left an indelible mark upon him but his appeals must have largely fallen on deaf ears.
It should also be noted that none of the famine-stricken households that Commander Caffin visited were Catholic. They were all Church of Ireland, which goes against the general assumption that Irish famine victims were invariably Catholic.
Don MacFarlane
September 8, 2012 at 9:16 am
Catholic Relief for Famine in Schull 1847
http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/RealitiesIrishLifeFamineSchull/
Mary Cornell
September 9, 2012 at 4:07 am
Two conclusions are possible
First, the British objective during the Famine was not a sectarian genocide, but rather a racial genocide. It was designed to eliminate all the Irish whether they were Catholic or Protestant.
Second,those non-Catholics who died during the Famine were simply collateral damage. The British objective of ridding themselves of the “Irish Roman Catholic Problem” was to be achieved through any means possible.
Irony in play. At the end of WWII, the British were among the most vocal in denouncing the Nazi soldiers who used the defense of “just following orders” to explain the atrocities they committed or watched. The British actions during the Famine were a step-by-step, mirror-image of those done by the Nazis, stopping short of concentration camps, but achieving the same goal. No doubt there were many like Caffin who deeply felt and regretted the actions they was ordered to take, but how many others did not regret what they did? Scary to think that many of their descendants may be OO members today.
The beautiful music of Cady Coleman and Ian Anderson show the possibilities of the human soul for greatness.
Don MacFarlane
September 9, 2012 at 6:50 am
A very full account of the famine relief measures put in place (but not by the British Government) in Schull and Skibereen can be found at:
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~datatree/wolf%2053.htm
A few stand-out messages:
The saintly Dr Traill, Church of Ireland rector (picture above), who accompanied Commander Caffin on his tour of the dying, did himself die of typhus fever a month after the letter. Caffin’s letter caused quite a stir in the English Press but it was largely ignored. The Treasury expressed some hollow words of sympathy for the dying but it sent not a penny of extra aid.
The vast majority of those who died were Catholic.
Before I wax too lyrical on the saintliness of Dr Robert Traill, he is said like many evangelicals of the period to have entertained thoughts that the endemic cholera in Ireland was a visitation from God as punishment for refusal by Catholics to pay tithes to the Church of Ireland! It may be however that his memory is being dishonoured by being tarred unfairly with the same brush as other rectors of the period. Rectors had a dreadful name and sometimes record of proselytising, soupering and rackrenting as landlords while posing as clergy.
My own thoughts on the matter are that modern-day Loyalists of whatever hue (Orange, Purple or Black) are oblivious of the Famine and other Irish tragedies and are mere coat trailers, the same as they have ever been from their Orders’ conception – expect nothing from them but keeping old wounds open. Most of their deaths (a handful by comparison) were in the skirmishes called the Battles of the Boyne and of Aughrim where the deaths were largely mercenaries (paid for by the Pope) from Denmark and Holland.
Where are the modern-day United Irishmen or Young Irelanders? Coat-trailers and wolves in sheep’s clothing, stand aside!
Eileen Breen
September 7, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Interesting program on today on the National Geographic Channel: Bombing of the Lusitania May 7, 1915 where the wreckage was off the coast of Kinsale, Ireland. It could travel across the Atlantic in 5 days. It was also made to be a war ship if needed. The English government put munitions on the cruise ship. The ship was bombed by Germany with a torpedo and sank in 18 minutes. Over 1100 people died. They were buried in Cobh, Ireland. The ship lies 12 miles off the Irish coast. The expedition ship is called the Granuaile (after the Pirate Queen).
Don MacFarlane
September 7, 2012 at 9:57 pm
The German Embassies arranged for warnings to be placed at US points of departure, including that for the Lusitania, for civilian passengers not to travel on board ships like the Lusitania that transported munitions. Therefore these deaths were totally avoidable but noone, especially Cunard, has ever accepted responsibility. It is also reported that Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson conspired to conceal the warnings from the public, so knowingly placing the passengers at risk. The tragedy, on a scale equivalent to the Titanic, has faded largely unremarked into history. It is hard to figure the implied sensitivity of the Germans in this matter by issuing warnings as they had no compunction in blitzing London and other English cities as well as Belfast. Therefore it all smacks of propaganda and disregard for human life on both sides.
Here is the passenger list of the Lusitania:
The Coughlins from County Cork (ex of Butte, Montana) in Third Class were a typically tragic case.
Footnote: As someone brought up in the Western Isles of Scotland with a father who survived German torpedoing twice in World War II, I had been told about the Lusitania but I had never heard of the Titanic.
Don MacFarlane
September 9, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Dr Richard Whately’s Memoirs (actually a biography)
” One student was the present Chancellor of the Exchequer remarkable for the extent to which he has applied to public affairs a profound knowledge of political economy.
The Reverend Morritt at the head of a company of infantry demanded tithes at Skibbereen. On being refused he ordered the yeomanry to fire and twenty nine persons fell dead. At Newtownbarry stones were thrown at Reverend McClintock and the infantry fired killing fourteen and wounding twenty nine others.
From ‘ A Parishioner in Stillorgan’ – ‘Did he [Archbishop Whately] ever mix with the gentry of the neighbourhood. Never, and this was felt to be an error on his part. No doubt he has been most kind in issuing coal and blankets to the distressed but this was nothing more than his duty. No doubt he established a National School within his demesne but some may have thought he exceeded his duty’.
From ‘Late Fellow of St Oriel’s’ – ‘Distrusted as a Catholic Emancipator and ill-friend of Protestantism, he [Whately] soon became disliked for tripping questions of logic with which he tried the temper of the clergy amongst whom his lot was now cast’.
The Archbishop would often give way to vigorous and unaccustomed movement, so much so that no less than five chairs were dislocated in quick succession by the energy with which he made his. Hair spin round on one leg.
Footnote: So much for how Arcbishop Whately was appointed and was received in his new appointment in Dublin. His full memoirs can be found at
Click to access a581759701fitzuoft.pdf
Further reading will uncover if Whately provided any kind of a shining example to his clergy in the relief of the suffering of the famine vistims of Munster. I suspect not. Of particular interest is to see how Dr Traill’s humanitarianism compared with the actions of his murderous and grasping fellow-rectors up-country and whether Archbishop Whately distinguished between them.
Don MacFarlane
September 9, 2012 at 6:12 pm
Evidence from Archbishop Whately on Tithe Collection in Ireland
House of Lords 1823
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=KYZTAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&authuser=0&hl=en_GB&pg=GBS.PA180
” I think it would be dangerous to legislate for relief in Ireland without prospect of the same for England. If relief were seen to be given in Ireland as a consequence of violent and turbulent measures, persons in England would seek to try for Tithes to be diverted to being substitutes for the poor-rates. Many are ignorant enough to believe that the sacrifice of Tithes for the maintenance of paupers would not only relieve distress in Ireland but would remove entirely the burden of poor-rates. There would then be no prospect or promise of anything being done to collect church-revenue in England.
What would you propose?
” I propose that the whole of the Church-property should be put into a common stock in the hands of a Corporation. Shares should be distributed to incumbents according to the present value of their tithes and a very small percentage handed to agents for collection of revenues. This would then remove almost all of the evils which are complained of such as frauds while collecting; bickering over amounts; refusal to go to church on a count of personal enmity with the clergyman”.
Question:
Could the Archbishop’s recommendations, which were turned down, have been the answer and have prevented the subsequent famines in Ireland?
Mary Cornell
September 10, 2012 at 6:05 am
Not having a grasp of agrarian economics and after reading the long version of Archbishop Whately’s proposal, I am quite certain I do not understand what he was trying to implement.
I see the establishment of a middleman, the corporation, with shareholders, the landowners. Is this to replace the Tithe? Even so, there still is money to be collected for the State by the corporation which would presumably come from the landowners. The money would be based on the value of the land? Wouldn’t the actions of the landowners be considered selling of their land for shares in the corporation? Or do they still maintain ownership of their land? It seems sound until you come to the point of “Where does the money keep coming from?” If it is based on the value of the land and the land becomes more valuable than the rent being received, then isn’t the landowner going to raise the rent to make up the difference?
Aye, there’s the rub. By 1823, the majority of the land was not owned by the native Irish. The burden of responsibility for monies to the State would be on the farmer who did not own the land. I see at some point the corporation wanting to profit from the situation, in other words more money needed. An endless cycle where the native Irish are the ones to suffer. It might have caused the famines to occur sooner and with greater devastation.
Gobshite, if I understand the meaning of the word.
Don MacFarlane
September 10, 2012 at 8:08 am
In actual fact, Archbishop Whately’s madcap scheme proved to be not so crazy after all. It became the harbinger of successive Irish Land Acts over the following fifty years under the guiding hand of William Gladstone, Britain’s longest-ever serving Prime Minister.
All of the flaws you identified in the scheme did occur and they were deliberately exploited by the same Lords who gave Archbishop Whately his audience with them. Many of them owned land in Ireland or feared repercussions in England where they were landowners. Most notoriously the Lords only allowed reforms to be passed which used the term ‘exorbitant’ instead of ‘excessive’ when applied to rents.
Despite his eccentricity, Whately was a very shrewd customer and he had a good grasp of eonomics – before becoming Archbishop he was Professor of Political Economics in Oxford. One gets the sense that he was playing cat-and-mouse with the Lords. The pity is that he did not use the opportunity to address the more pressing problems of famine relief by contingency planning. His schemes took most of the nineteenth century to roll out but the Great Famine was just round the corner.
In a way, Whately was playing God and on a grand scale with people’s lives – much as more notorious figures like Trevelyan and Malthus were to do soon after. Whately was an opponent of government intervention (more of a Romney than an Obama)- but more as a reminder to landowners of their responsibilities to their tenants – but these other two rascals twisted that message round or ignored it completely. Many landowners did take their responsibilities seriously, many didn’t, and they lost their so-called encumbered estates as a consequence.
Don MacFarlane
September 10, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Catechism of Catholic Church vis-a-vis Wealth Distribution
Seventh Commandment Corollaries -‘ Thou shalt not steal’
Respect for the fruits of a man’s [or woman’s] labours.
Sharing of land for the common good so as to prevent insecurity, indignity, poverty and violence.
Ownership of goods should also benefit others, not just the self.
Moderation of property ownership and nothing in excess.
Political authority to ensure fairness of distribution.
Rendering what is due without complaint.
No usurping of property against consent.
No price manipulation to take advantage of others.
More in the same vein that shows how the established churches (both Protestant and Catholic) abused their privileged positions in a wholly immoral and unChristian way in nineteenth century Ireland to the detriment of ordinary people can be found at:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm
Don MacFarlane
September 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm
Clergy Landowners 1876
County Derry
1874 pound sterling = 2012 equivalent of £7000
Most times the valuation of the property was based upon the acreage, at the rate of £1 per acre, rather than the munificence of any building that sat upon it. Hence, it can be reasonably assumed that there were tenants upon most of these properties.
Click to access rp03-082.pdf
Right Reverend Alexander, Derry (2680 acres)
Rev John Alexander, Brookhall, Coleraine £157
Rev Robert Alexander, Aghadowey
Rev Samuel Alexander, Caw £86
Rev William Anderson, Cumber £113
Rev Robert Atkinson, Lissan
Rev Richard Babington, Waterside £46
Rev James Bailie, Desertlyn
Rev Richard Bennett, Londonderry £66
Rev Stephen Bennett, England £124
Rev Nathaniel Brown, Limavady £109
Rev Robert Brown, Dungannon £739
Rev Patrick Campbell, Cumber
Rev Henry Colthurst, Knockloughrim £18
Rev John Colthurst, Bovevagh £7
Rev George Craig, Bellarena £52
Rev William Crawford, Cookstown (1195 acres)
Rev Robert Delap, Killygordon (5923 acres)
Rev William Dysart, Bellarena £53
Archdeacon Edwards, Dunboe
Rev Edward French, Ballyscullion
Rev James Fitzpatrick, Castledawson £12
Rev Robert Gage, Kilrea (264 acres) £292
Rev George Galbraith, Killaloo £137
Rev Joseph Gelson, Dungiven £49
Rev James Gilmour, Kilrea £177
Rev Stephen Gwynn, Ballyaghran
Rev John Hamilton, Manorhamilton (3181 acres)
Rev R Hamilton, Killelagh
Rev John Hewitt, Desertlynn
Rev Charles Irwin, Artrea
Rev John Jackson, Ballinderry
Rev W Jamison, Limavady £30
Rev Henry Kingsmill, Letterkenny (236 acres)
Rev James Knox, Maghera
Rev Thomas Lindsay, Cumber
Rev Thomas Lyttle, Dublin £13
Rev John Lyle, Ballyrashane
Rev Peter Maxwell, Faughanvale
Rev Richard Mauleverer, Termoneeny
Rev Alex Miller, Ballynascreen
Rev William McClure, Waterside £46
Rav Marcus McCausland, Kildollagh
Rev Samuel McCurdy, Stewartstown £15
Rev Joseph MacDonnell, Ballyrena £38
Rev Thomas McClellan, Macosquin
Rev Thomas McClelland, Moville (2050 acres)
Rev William Mill, Ballywillin
Rev Samuel Montgomery, Ballynascreen
Rev William Mortimeter, Ballynahinch (3825 acres)
Rev William Oulton, Ballyrashane
Rev J Paul, Ballyrena (594 acres) £594
Rev William Reynolds, Limavady (3 acres) £21
Rev James Robson, Tobermore (55 acres) £55
Rev George Sampson, Tamlaght Finlagan
Rev George Scott, Banagher
Rev George Smith, Tamlaght O’Crilly
Rev Mitchell Smith, Garvagh (255 acres)£257
Rev James Smyth, Portglenone £45
Rev William Stack, Balteagh
Rev Hall Stewart, Toombridge £86
Rev John Stewart, Portstewart £22
Rev John Stewart, Maghera £12
Rev George Stuart, Limavady
Rev S Templeton, Limavady £12
Rev Tredenick, Ardara (6297 acres) – married an heiress
Rev Samuel Twigg, Tamlaght
Rev H Verschoyle (927 acres)
Rev Mervyn Wilson, Cumber
Rev Gardner Young, Aughnacloy (539 acres)
Click to access londonderry.pdf
Mary Cornell
September 11, 2012 at 4:31 am
Do we place the Rev. William Reynolds, Limavady, with 3 acres in the same category as the Rev. Robert Delap of Killygordon with 5923 acres? I think 10 acres is not an unreasonable amount of property for a member of the clergy to own. Up to an amount of fifty acres should be acceptable but when you look at some of these other clergy members with huge estates it is deplorable. I do not think that they could have achieved such bounties without breaking most, if not all, of the corollaries to the seventh commandment. They surely received the same religious teaching as Dr Ian Paisley.
Even though the following statements are from the Catholic Church’s teachings, the other Christian religions have the same Ten Commandments.
2450 “You shall not steal” (Ex 20:15; Deut 5:19). “Neither thieves, nor the greedy, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 6:10).
2451 The seventh commandment enjoins the practice of justice and charity in the administration of earthly goods and the fruits of men’s labor.
2452 The goods of creation are destined for the entire human race. The right to private property does not abolish the universal destination of goods.
2453 The seventh commandment forbids theft. Theft is the usurpation of another’s goods against the reasonable will of the owner.
2454 Every manner of taking and using another’s property unjustly is contrary to the seventh commandment. The injustice committed requires reparation. Commutative justice requires the restitution of stolen goods.
2455 The moral law forbids acts which, for commercial or totalitarian purposes, lead to the enslavement of human beings, or to their being bought, sold or exchanged like merchandise.
2458 The Church makes a judgment about economic and social matters when the fundamental rights of the person or the salvation of souls requires it. She is concerned with the temporal common good of men because they are ordered to the sovereign Good, their ultimate end.
2459 Man is himself the author, center, and goal of all economic and social life. The decisive point of the social question is that goods created by God for everyone should in fact reach everyone in accordance with justice and with the help of charity.
2460 The primordial value of labor stems from man himself, its author and beneficiary. By means of his labor man participates in the work of creation. Work united to Christ can be redemptive.
2461 True development concerns the whole man. It is concerned with increasing each person’s ability to respond to his vocation and hence to God’s call (cf. CA 29).
2462 Giving alms to the poor is a witness to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God.
2463 How can we not recognize Lazarus, the hungry beggar in the parable (cf. Lk 17:19-31), in the multitude of human beings without bread, a roof or a place to stay? How can we fail to hear Jesus: “As you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me” (Mt 25:45)?
So were the clergy buying the land with money taken from the collection plates? Or were these men of God simply taking the land? The many deaths and departures during the Famine left a lot of land ownerless. A sad and distressing thought.
Don MacFarlane
September 11, 2012 at 6:55 am
Keeping it in the Family
Just one branch of this famous family and a cousin, Most Rev Sir William Alexander LLD, DD, DCL became the famous Dr Alexander, Bishop of Derry 1867-1896, then Primate of All Ireland 1896-1911. His wife, Cecil Frances Alexander was even more famous, having penned the hymns ‘There is a Green Hill Far Away’, ‘All Things Bright and Beautiful’, ‘Once in Royal David’s City’ and the English translation of ‘St Patrick’s Breastplate’.
Another branch of the same family spawned Henry Alexander MP who was a strong opponent of Catholic emancipation and repeal of the Test Acts. In other words, the Alexanders had a finger in every pie.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/member/alexander-henry-1787-1861
John Alexander 1610, rented land at Eredy in County Donegal from Sir James Cunninghame on condition that ‘ he did not alienate the premises to a mere Irishman or any other person unless they first take the Oath of Supremacy’.
Rev Andrew Alexander, Presbyterian minister at Eredy d. 1641
Captain Andrew Alexander, granted lands at Limavady, attainted by King James II in 1689
John Alexander, bought the lands at Gunsland in 1717
Nathaniel Alexander, Alderman of Derry d.1761 (grand-uncle of Sir William, Primate of All Ireland); brother of General William Alexander, Mayor of Derry (father of Sir William). Nathaniel was father to James Alexander, 1st Earl of Caledon. These Caledons became powerful land owners and peers of the realm with direct access to those with their hands on the levers of power. James Alexander made his fortune in colonial service in India from which he emerged as the equivalent of a modern-day billionaire. As a member of the nouveau-riche he spent half of his vast fortune buying up estates from aristocracy in Northern Ireland. He was a strong supporter of the Act of Union 1800 and he may well have had influence in garnishing votes in its support.
Robert Alexander, lived at Boom Hall, Derry d. 1790
Rt Rev Nathaniel Alexander, Bishop of Meath d. 1840
Overall, it appears that this powerful family came from modest enough beginnings. Over the course of two hundred years they formed a dynasty that occupied the most central positions of Church and State, and all had started from a little backwater in the hinterlands of Donegal.
By far the most famous of them was Field Marshal Alexander of Tunis, grandson of Dupre Alexander, 2nd Earl of Caledon. The Field Marshal was the most distinguished British soldier in World War II, even more so than another Ulsterman with roots in Moville in Donegal, Field Marshal Montgomery.
Mary Cornell
September 11, 2012 at 3:03 pm
St Peter had his job cut out with this group. The earlier Alexanders look to be representative of their times with the usual Irish bias and ‘colonial’ mindset. I think that as the fortunes rose so did the egos and senses of entitlement. As well as the greed. The one that I find interesting is James Alexander. Colonial (government) service must have paid handsomely for him to emerge from India as a wealthy man. I think that he pretty well demolished the seventh commandment with no tenet left unscathed.
The one who may be allowed to apply for a passport was Cecil Frances, but the concern that I have with her is that she surely lived grandly on the fortunes of her husband. Was she known to be a charitable woman who was concerned with the plight of those less fortunate souls?
Suffice to say that the Alexanders did not obtain and keep the fortunes they made by following any of the commandments too closely.
Don MacFarlane
September 11, 2012 at 8:22 pm
And then there was James’s son, Du Pre Alexander, 2nd Earl of Caledon, who was Governor of Cape Colony (modern South Africa) during the latter years of British Rule. He oversaw but did not initiate the demise of slavery of Africans in 1807-1808. Due to dithering, he declined to accept for disembarkation a cargo of two hundred plus slaves off a Portuguese slave trader, although purchase had already been agreed, despite a storm brewing. He declared as his reason or excuse that he had seen enough of slavery in Ireland and the ship was sent on its way to Brazil as it still accepted slaves. When barely out of sight of land the hip foundered with the loss of all lives.
Don MacFarlane
September 12, 2012 at 5:51 am
Landed Clergy of County Cork 1876
It could have been the case that Ulster was an unusual case of landed clergy simply being the beneficiaries of inherited wealth from the Ulster plantation, but a cursory look at Cork tells the same depressing story thirty years after the Great Famine.
Click to access cork.pdf
These few names are the stand-out cases of unseemly wealth amongst landgrabbing clergy:
Rev John Browne Cork £4919 *
Rev William Browne Tasmania £637
Right Rev Butcher, Navan £773
Dr Maurice Collis, Queenstown £5177
Rev Julius Deeds, Kent £1595
Rev Robert Delacour, London £872 *
Rev Evanson, Bristol £2272
Rev James Freke, Riverstown £1928
Rev John Leslie, Cork, £939
Rev William Nason, Rathcormac £2679
Rev Edward Newenham, Carrigaline £2740 *
Rev George Parker, Farran £1034
Rev John Pyne, Cloyne £1132
Rev Jonas Stawell, Donoughmore £1257 *
Rev Robert Warren, Shrewsbury £1574 *
Archbishop Whately would have had his work cut out persuading those carpetbaggers to put their land into a communal pot. The most depressing aspect is that Cork, unlike Ulster, suffered greatly from the Famine and was also a hotspot of the Landwars, the ‘peasant’ revolt against rackrent and tithe collection. The forced evictions and daylight robbery of those tenants who had starving mouths and nothing left to give was often at the behest of these landed clergy and were backed up by the local so-called yeomanry. Murders on both sides became the order of the day.
* These landowners became bankrupt, due to non-payment of rents by tenants who were perhaps dead from famine fever or had been forced to emigrate, and the landowner estates became Encumbered.
Mary Cornell
September 12, 2012 at 4:14 pm
Archbishop Whately should have been able to foresee that the clergy would have been unable to support their acreage if the renters were unable to pay and maybe come up with the term ‘tax exempt’. I do not think a communal pot would have helped in the case of Ireland because once the Famine grabbed a hold, there were too many who were able to help who simply refused to do so and whatever befell them was not mourned by those left still alive.
I couldn’t tell, but were these clergy already landed gentry who inherited the land? The amount of acreage speaks to them already owning the land.
Don MacFarlane
September 12, 2012 at 7:54 pm
Tithe Defaulters
This website sets out quite nicely the compromised situation that rectors could find themselves in if tenants refused to pay rents due.
http://www.brandis.com.au/genealogy/readers/kate001.html
Even clergymen with big estates, that were valued for rates accordingly, could find themselves in dire straits and lose their property. These big-time clergy landowners tended to be scions of aristocratic or otherwise well-to-do families, perhaps younger sons and the alternative for them was to join the Army.
Mary Cornell
September 7, 2012 at 5:42 am
An outsiders view- After reading the ‘apology,’ only one thought crossed my mind, HOGWASH. In this ‘heartfelt’ apology, it was said that no one had anything against St. Patrick’s Church or the Catholics. So I suppose they simply have an aversion to stained glass. It was simply an action against the Parades Commission who are out to get them. The Parades Commission must have some unseen power to destroy them and their DNA with the simple action of denying them ‘parade privileges.’ And there are those who welcome the apology as a sign of working toward peace. Yeah, right!
What I see though, is a bit of a Trojan Horse coming to Belfast. It is a way to deny anything that may happen on the 29th by saying simply “We offered an apology for the misunderstanding earlier this month. It is not our doing. We have only goodwill in our hearts.” The same thing can be said for those accepting the apology. “We accepted the apology and they stabbed us in the backs.” And the Parades Commission will be made the scapegoat for both sides.
As an outsider, over the past few months, I see an incremental rise in the violence that is occurring. It appears that in the coming weeks the violence will ratchet up exponentially, all in the name of parade rights. I hope Don is right in that this is a yearly occurrence with no real harm done, but I can’t help but feel a deeper undercurrent of hatred ready to boil over. Will the fire be extinguished in time this year?
Don MacFarlane
September 7, 2012 at 5:58 am
The Ulster Covenant
Ironic that PRONI which has not been very good at digitising records – most of what they have is on microfiche or stored – have digitised the signatories of the Covenant. Out of curiosity, I searched my own surname and found 28 signatures, mostly from Tyrone and Belfast:
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/UlsterCovenant/SearchResults.aspx
Here is a sample page of signatures, this time from Ballymoney in County Antrim, which is clearly all male and all Ulster-Scots. I would not like to have been a person whose name was missing from the list for all to see!
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/UlsterCovenant/image.aspx?image=M0000160001
Also note the wording of what signatories were signing up to:
” Being convinced that Home Rule would be disastrous to the whole of Ireland and perilous to the unity of the Empire, we pledge to use all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy. We individually declare that we have not already signed this Covenant”.
In 1916 at the height of the Great War, Protestant forces smuggled 40,000 rifles into Northern Ireland as a last stand against Home Rule. This forced the hand of the British Government which could not fight a civil war on their own doorstep as well as fight the Hun. And this is what is being celebrated on 28th September?
The chief agitator, apart from Thomas Craig and Edward Carson (Unionist politicians), who opposed Home Rule was Andrew Bonar Law who later became the shortest ever (221 days) British Prime Minister despite being Canadian. Even King George 1 was in favour of a plebiscite for the whole population (not just Protestants) to decide the issue but he was stonewalled by Bonar Law’s delaying tactics in Parliament before World War 1 intervened.
Mary Cornell
September 7, 2012 at 7:44 pm
The wording of the Ulster Covenant is similar in tone, phrasing and reasoning as the apology from the Royal Black Institution. It is so alike that you could almost interchange Home Rule with Parade Commission. The Loyalists portray themselves as victims when they are, in fact, the aggressors in these two events. Who exactly are they trying to fool?
Don MacFarlane
September 7, 2012 at 8:38 pm
How different and how mean-spirited these sounding-offs of present-day Orangemen compared to the reasoned appeals, even if their logic was way off beam, of Protestants from the Inishowen Peninsula in Donegal in 1798 prior to the Act of Union:
” We hold the sentiments of our fellow countrymen such as are different from our own with the just respect which is their due. We believe however that a legislative union will bury forever the religious animosities that are indistinguishable from a federal connexion between distinct and independent nations”.
Don MacFarlane
September 6, 2012 at 8:49 am
Open Letter of Apology from the Royal Black Institution
This public statement has caused quite a stir and it is worth a careful read.
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/black-institution-apology-to-parishioners-1-4226043
Also bearing the context of the Apology in the Newletter in mind, a further point:
What is the significance of the symbols on the aprons of the marchers at the front?
Footnote: I think Matt Molloy should set the musical standard for who should be allowed to play in a flute band, or better still, Sir James Galway!
Don MacFarlane
September 6, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Evangelical Protestantism and Loyal Orders
This site purports to give the inside story on the inner workings of the Loyal Orders and their world views:
http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/patrickmccafferty.htm
Most of it is heavy going and, frankly, balderdash but with a solitary voice of reason coming from a Father Patrick McCafferty:
” We are all in this mess together. We all have to repent of contempt and animosity and seek to become better channels of God’s healing grace and love one another – Evangelicals, Orangemen, Catholics, Presbyterians or anyone else alike”.
Eileen Breen
September 6, 2012 at 5:14 pm
The marchers are Masons. The symbols on their sashes and the apron are Masonic symbols. There have been many US presidents who were Masons, including George Washington who is seen with the Mason’s Apron. My guess is, as you go through the ranks of the Masons, you earn “merit badges”? I’m glad they are going to try to work on the Protestant marches parading and trying to encourage violence in Catholic neighborhoods. Perhaps they should have a battle of the bands where all bands play for the public for entertainment without playing sectarian music.
Don MacFarlane
September 6, 2012 at 6:06 pm
The marchers are actually from the Black Institution (or Black Perceptory as they are more commonly known) and their main man is ‘Doctor’ Ian Paisley. You have to have been a member of the Orange Order before you can join and you have to promise never to marry a ‘Papist’ (their words) or be present when a child is being baptised by a priest. With that inherent bigotry – they refer to the Pope as The Antichrist – they have had the neck to apologise for ‘any hurt’ they caused during the recent march (their march) which caused all the recent trouble. In actual fact, if you read their so-called public apology, it is really just a sounding-board for more of these sort of beliefs and attitudes. It is being latched onto by some wishy-washy ones from the other side as an olive branch, in advance of the flaring up that is anticipated later this month for the ‘celebration’ of the Ulster Covenant. If I were a Republican I would be hopping mad with the whole shower of them.
Why are some of them sporting Masonic symbols? That is another long story!
Mary Cornell
September 6, 2012 at 7:27 pm
Just wanted to leave a quick thought and will be back in a little while with some, hopefully, well thought out comments on the topics, but it appears that Don has been reading my mind! Following the latest news in Northern Ireland, I came to the conclusion the other night that the flute players in NI seem to be a violent lot. Perhaps there are esteem issues on not being able to play the ‘big’ drums? 🙂
One quick question on the issue of famine in Northern Ireland. Don, do you remember in the novel, “Trinity,” Leon Uris put forth that the Famine was less in the large Protestant communities of Northern Ireland because they were able to receive food supplies from the British, an option that was non-existent for the Catholics? How much truth is there in his novel?
Don MacFarlane
September 6, 2012 at 7:55 pm
It’s many years since I read Leon Uris so that particular notion escaped me but I wouldn’t discount it. Certainly, Sir Arthur Trevelyan was on record as having said that Irish were less worthy of help than Scots in times of famine. Ironic coming from him, a Cornishmen and fellow Celt, that he made that difference between Q-Celts, he being a P-Celt.
More to the point and according to Martin Dowling, an American who took his PhD in Irish history, there was a sustained attempt over many years by Planters to displace the native Irish from the better pastures to the rougher hillground that was only suitable for runrigs. That would have had the same effect and have left Catholics (native Irish) particularly reliant on potatoes which could grow in poorer soil.
Don MacFarlane
September 5, 2012 at 10:50 am
Famine Map of Ireland
A recent study from Cork University confirms that Ulster largely escaped the famine, apart from ‘mountainous’ or more inaccessible parts viz. the Sperrins, the Glens of Antrim and an L-shape taking in Lower Tyrone/Fermanagh reaching up into North East Donegal. The same pattern applied to the Republic apart from some anomalies like Cavan/Monaghan, counties that are relatively flat but they were still stricken. The findings of the study do not exactly square with a similar and earlier research which looked at the taking up of rations in 1847 which showed a large ration-consumption in County Derry. This implies that famine-relief was highly efficient in that county,unlike the other counties that were hit hard, hence there was little famine in Derry. Derry was flooded at that time by an exodus of people from Donegal who were simply bundled onto boats and bailed out to North America; local Derry people could afford to stay put.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/famine/distribution.html
Joan Turner
September 3, 2012 at 5:01 pm
I do not believe I stated there was “no mention of God”. In fact, I believe I stated that our founders stated quite clearly that we were “endowed by our Creator…”. What I did say was that nowhere in our constitution, bill of right or declaration of independence is reference to a deity precluded by these documents. Again, separation of church and state has nothing to do with referencing, worshipping, or speaking of God it has to do with not elevating one religious belief over another.
Joan Turner
September 3, 2012 at 4:53 pm
I am not a Romney supporter. I also am not an Obama supporter. I am simply stating that there is a difference between “separation of church and state” and the right of the individual to publicly manifest his or her beliefs. If we attack Mormonism why not Catholicism or Presbyterianism or Episcopalianism or Adventistism or Islam etc. etc. etc. Many of these religions also have tenets which some might find offensive or offputting and which may well influence our personal decision to support a candidate. Again, I come back to Kennedy who was accused of being unable to serve as President because he was a “papist” whose allegience was to Rome and not the US. President Kennedy addressed these concerns at his address to the Greater Houston Minsterial Association in September, 1960 in which he stated:
“But let me stress again that these are my views for, contrary to common newspaper usage, I am not the Catholic candidate for President. I am the Democratic Party’s candidate for President who happens also to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my Church on public matters–and the Church does not speak for me.
Whatever issue may come before me as President- on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject- I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise.”
Don MacFarlane
September 3, 2012 at 5:42 pm
Quote from Joseph Smith, Founder of LDS Church
” Enoch beheld the people who were the sons of Adam but the seed of Cain were black and had no place among them”.
LDS has believed that black skin is a sign of the Mark of Cain and, while tolerating Blacks within their church, will not administer the sacraments to them. This means that Barack Obama would be allowed to be a Mormon but he could not practise the faith in its fullest sense. This also means that LDS does not believe that all men (never mind women) are created equal. This then, from a secular point of view, goes against the grain and spirit of the Declaration of Independence, ‘the greatest happiness for the greatest number’.
Incidentally, Enoch is counted as the major prophet in LDS and he is accorded almost similar status in Judaism, Orthodox and Islam – something in common between these four faiths – with Christianity, which does not recognise Enoch, as the odd man out. Hence, from a faith point of view, Mormonism might be highly suitable as the established religion for a multicultural country like the US? What is in the Mormon faith for Blacks then and why does it have an appeal? Apparently this is because of their strong family ties and the Mormon belief that families are kept intact after death. This matters more than the Mormon belief that Blacks will continue to serve Mormons even in Heaven.
http://loop21.com/life/can-mitt-romney-lead-america-if-mormons-hated-blacks
Joan H. Turner
September 3, 2012 at 1:16 am
I certainly agree. There is no excuse for intolerance. My point was that separation of church and state helps to ensure that state sanctioned religious intolerance is unacceptable. It does not, however, preclude making reference to one’s personal beliefs, even in a political setting. If the individual(s) citing personal beliefs cross the line and dive head first into a sea of intolerance, a river of ignorance or a stream of just plain stupidity one can only hope the electorate recognizes the aberration.
Joan H. Turner
September 2, 2012 at 11:15 pm
Doesn’t that have more to do with religious intolerance than separation of Church and State? Certainly more conflict in world history has been rooted in intolerance than any other issue. It wasn’t that long ago that John Kennedy’s Catholicism was raised as a concern that he would not be able to fulfil his constitutional duties as President.
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 11:46 pm
I was brought up to have an intimate knowledge of the Bible and found nothing in the Gospels to advocate intolerance; a different matter entirely when you look at the Old Testament or the Epistles. For me, the biggest curse is ignorance as that is the root of intolerance. In other words intolerance is an inexcusable, lazy and shared form of learning disability.
Mary Cornell
September 3, 2012 at 6:44 am
Mitt Romney has said he is a firm and faithful believer in his religion. One of the tenets of Mormonism is that the woman is subservient to the man. How is this going to play out when it comes to legislation pertaining to women if he were to be elected? I prefer my candidate to be in support of women before he is elected and not hem and haw afterwards when his actions show an anti-woman bias. Another one of the tenets of Mormonism is that non-whites, specifically African-Americans, are inferior to whites because they are descended from Cain and will carry the mark of Cain ‘forever.’; forever inferior. When this was pointed out in the eighties, the passages concerning African-Americans disappeared from the Book of Mormon. It was denied that they ever existed, but it is possible to locate older versions of the Book of Mormon with the deleted passages intact. If I were African-American, I would wonder about him if he were to be elected.
My point is that if his belief system is so strong what will his agenda be? Will it be in favor of women if it goes against church teachings or will he adhere to the church? His beliefs are tied to his church and will he go against his church when it comes to legislation concerning women? This can be said of all political candidates – so that is why we choose what fits our own personal belief system best. I don’t believe Romney is the man for me.
Eileen Breen
September 2, 2012 at 10:50 pm
In the US the religious right are using “Weapons Of Mass Deception”, mixing religion with politics. Their agendas remain hidden. Politicians play on those citizens who fear God. What the US citizen should be fearing are the politicians. The Religious Right are saying Obama is the Anti-Christ. After watching the Republican Convention I still don’t know Romney’s views on national and international issues. I don’t think his religious views will matter much in Northern Ireland, Muslim countries or with non-Christians. The Republicans are making us believe the Republicans are the Saints and everyone else are Sinners. This goes back to one of our earlier debates – are our politicians a mixture of Saint and Sinner? There should be a mention of religious tolerance and acceptance by our clergy and not our politicians engaging in a religious war.
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 11:05 pm
The Pope recently described Australia as a place of no religion but Aussies took no offence, in fact they take pride in that. I had Aussie visitors this week and I asked them whether, if Australia were fifteen times bigger, they could be as great as the US which espouses similar values of freedom and self expression. They said they would have no wish to be like the US. Small was beautiful and, being remote, everyone left them alone. They had no wish to be considered a Superpower and they could just be themselves. Notions of grandiosity were a curse.
Joan H. Turner
September 2, 2012 at 10:48 pm
Lots of folks are confused about separation of Church and State. I was taught (back when we had civics classes) that the separation of Church and State ensured against the creation or establishment of a formal “state religion”, a religious faith or practice to be considered the correct or preferred practice of faith. Nowhere in our Constitution or Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence is there reference to a deity, religion or a worship prohibited. In fact, our Founding Fathers stated that “we are Endowed by our Creator certain inalienable rights…among these the right to life, liberty,and the pursuit of happiness”. Anyone practicing any religion, or no religion at all, ascribing to any belief or no belief at all is to be given equal purchase…even on the political stage
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 10:55 pm
Why then the amount of distaste at the thought of a Mormon being the next President? Would Mitt Romney be better being an atheist? Come to that, considering the strong Jewish lobby in America, why has there never been a Jewish candidate for President?
Some Twentieth Century Presidents
George W Bush (English ancestry)
Bill Clinton (Irish)
Ronald Reagan (Irish)
Jimmy Carter (English)
Gerald Ford (Scottish)
Richard Nixon (Scottish)
Lyndon Johnson (Scottish)
John Kennedy (Irish)
Dwight Eisenhower (Swiss)
Harry Truman (Scottish)
Franklin Roosevelt (Dutch)
Herbert Hoover (German)
Calvin Coolidge (English)
Warren Harding (English)
Woodrow Wilson (Irish)
William Taft (English)
In other words, almost all of them were WASPs.
Eileen Breen
September 3, 2012 at 12:45 pm
Americans in the past wanted WASPS. It was the WASPS, “The Good Old Boys Club”, that started this country. In the time when America was just just beginning the WASPS didn’t want a Jewish president, politician or in any position of power. There was a lot of prejudice against the Jewish faith or anyone that was not like them. Personally I feel variety is the spice of life. The different nationalities and races make America a strong and vibrant nation. I disagree with Joan that there is no mention of God. In many of our political writings, buildings and thoughts at the time of this country’s founding our forefathers, especially the Masons, wanted to ensure God was mentioned everywhere. In fact many of these religious symbols had to be removed from court houses and the Supreme Court. When Thomas Jefferson wrote about Liberty he wasn’t talking about African Americans. He as well as a few other presidents owned slaves. Equality under the law? I don’t think so!
Eileen Breen
September 3, 2012 at 12:48 pm
In fact woman and minorities are still fighting for equal pay for equal work. America is still a very prejudiced and biased country and it’s not just whites against African Americans. It’s black skinned people against lighter skinned African Americans and Hispanics. We have a long way to go!
Don MacFarlane
September 3, 2012 at 4:11 pm
Quote from 1694 from Francis Hutchison, an Irishman of Scottish parentage from Saintfield in County Down, and Father of the Scottish Enlightenment:
” That action is best which procures the greatest happiness for the greatest numbers”.
What is the flaw in that argument? Because there is one. Clue: Catherine the Great of Russia was a big fan of the Scottish Enlightenment.
I like his other famous quote better:
” Wisdom is the pursuance of the best ends by the best means”.
Professor Hutchison was believed to be an inspirational figure in producing the American Declaration of Independence. Question: How much of his main tenets as quoted above have come to fruition in America? Would he be pleased or dismayed if he were alive today?
Eileen Breen
September 3, 2012 at 8:28 pm
“Happiness and unhappiness are in the heart and spirit of each one of us: if you feel unhappy, then place yourself above that and act so that your happiness does not get dependent on anything” – Catherine The Great.
It does sound like she studied Hutchison, the founding father of The Scottish Enlightenment. At a young age she was forced to marry but he died before the marriage. She then was found another suitor and had an abusive marriage. By her account she had many affairs trying to find happiness. The flaw in the statement is that perhaps she was trying to find that ideal partner but didn’t take her own advice and find happiness in herself first. It doesn’t seem like she found “Mr Right”.
Hutchison who coined the phrase: “the greatest happiness for the greatest numbers” believed that a “morally good act is motivated by a desire to see happiness in others”. He further states we experience pain and pleasure through our five senses which is independent of our will. If we see a person who wants to make someone happy it gives us great pleasure.
Perhaps Catherine would have been happier doing good works for others and bringing joy to the masses rather than spending lavishly, overthrowing her husband from the throne and having relationships that were unsatisfactory in her life.
Don MacFarlane
September 4, 2012 at 9:55 am
Happiness Quotient by Country
Don MacFarlane
September 3, 2012 at 9:24 pm
The flaw in the premise, ‘the greatest happiness for the greatest number’, has spawned many theses and can be examined at different levels of complexity. At the most abstruse level, it can be summarised in a statement such as:
‘ with a zero-discount rate on future felicity, a larger value of elasticity has a flatter consumption profile, implying a more egalitarian distribution’!
This statement can also be rendered as a mathematical equation, thankfully not reproduced here.
My understanding of this is that when the cupboard is almost bare, there is little enough to go round so hard choices have to be made and not everybody can come out on top. For most people, don’t expect things to get better any time soon, tighten your belts and share and share alike. A fair reflection perhaps on the times we are living in, according to Obama? Romney, however, states there is no inevitability about the status quo and he can kick-start the economy out of a ‘zero-rate discount’ on the economy. Who do you believe? The prediction is that if unemployment can stay below 5.6% before November, Obama will win. If I were American and a voter, my gut as a natural-born cynic goes with Obama. My objection up till now with Obama, whom I have always been dubious of, was that he was wet behind the ears. His grey hairs tell me that no longer applies.
With regards to Catherine the Great, she toyed with the concept of socialism as espoused by Voltaire. He in turn was influenced by the Scottish Enlightenment when he said (or with words to that effect), ‘all good things come from Scotland’. They had a bitter fallout when Catherine turned her back on these ideals and she became quite tyrannical.
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 8:34 am
IRA Collateral Damage from the Troubles in Northern Ireland
November 1971
Customs officials, Ian Hankin (27) and James O’Neill (39) at Newry customs post during an ambush upon an Army patrol.
December 1971
Hugh Bruce (70), Harold King (29), Tracy Munn (2) and Colin Nicholl (1) killed in bomb attak on furniture shop in Shankill Road.
December 1971
Jack Bamhill (UUP politician) assassinated at home in Strabane.
February 1972
Seven civilian staff at Aldershot barracks killed in bomb attack.
March 1972
Two customers killed in bomb attack on Abercorn Restaurant in Belfast.
Three civilians killed by car bomb in Lower Donegall Street in Belfast.
May 1972
64 year old woman killed by bomb in Oxford Street in Belfast.
February 1973
Gordon Gallagher (9) killed by IRA bomb planted in his garden.
June 1973
Six Protestant elderly civilians killed by car bomb in Railway Street in Coleraine.
March 1974
Two customers killed in bomb attack in bar in Sandy Row in Belfast.
October 1974
Five customers killed in bomb attack on bar in Guilford in Surrey, England.
November 1974
21 customers killed in bomb attack on two bars in Birmingham in England.
April 1975
Five customers killed in attack on Mountainview Tavern in Shankill Road in Belfast.
August 1975
Five customers killed in attack on Bayardo Bar in Shankill Road in Belfast.
And so it went on. The rest of the slaughter of the innocents, from 1975 onwards:
http://www.victims.org.uk/eventsoftroubles.html
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 8:58 am
Tangled Web
Another site for those confused by Irish and American Politics
http://www.atangledweb.org/?p=19411
Eileen Breen
September 2, 2012 at 1:47 pm
Stormont looks so white and pristine as it sits on the hill. IRA and Sein Fein bombers shouldn’t be given high posts in your government. The Good Friday Agreement shouldn’t be used to allow officials to appoint terrorists and give them high posts in office. Instead of hurting and killing innocents with their bombs they’re doing it with their “laws”. The Good Friday Agreement should be abolished.
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Presence of Sinn Fein in Stormont All Party Groups
For Children and Young People – 25%
For Community Development – 7%
For Social and Economic Development – 8%
On Funerals and Bereavements – 0%
For International Development – 4%
For Tourism – 4%
ProLife – 8%
It is abundantly clear that Sinn Fein have no interest in cooperation and idea generation; ruling the roost seems more their style.
Eileen Breen
September 2, 2012 at 9:07 pm
It’s appalling that Sinn Fein is on a committee for children and young people. It’s probably to recruit them later on. Pro Life,that’s a joke. They are clearly not about life. Social and community activities on their part is for recruitment. I’m not sure why Sinn Fein is as popular as they are.
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 9:58 pm
What sticks out like a sore thumb to me is their complete absence on the All Party Group for Bereavement, considering the number of deaths they have been responsible for – either directly or as cheermasters. It shows how little interest they have in the bereaved.
Eileen Breen
September 2, 2012 at 10:25 pm
Why would they mourn the loss of life when they were responsible for it? The Victims.org site was horrifying. The deaths on both sides is tragic and senseless.
Eileen Breen
September 1, 2012 at 6:04 pm
Sad news today: Dublin resident Molly Malone is being transported to Australia this year. Her fate is to be placed in front of a bar. There has been some debate as to her country of origin as both Ireland and Australia lay claim to her heritage. I think they should put her near Grafton St. In that area there are so many statues of folks who were poets, politics, rebels why not someone who had a strong work ethic working day and night! She’s the most photographed tourist attraction in Dublin if not Ireland. There should be a grass roots petition to save her from transportation! She’s supposed to travel 1st class which is a better fate than the Irish and English who were sent before her.
Eileen Breen
August 31, 2012 at 10:34 pm
There’s an article from CNN World: So They Think It’s Over In Northern Ireland. The author concludes that the English government has not honored the Bill Of Rights as described in the Belfast/ Good Friday Agreement. Is this true?
Don MacFarlane
September 1, 2012 at 12:09 pm
This refers to Bill of Rights only, not the International Declaration nor the European Convention of Rights which all European countries are bound by. The Bill was to bring into force addiional measures to promote participation in politics (4), root out sectarianism (2), promote identity and culture (4) and to do posthumous justice for the victims of the Troubles such as the Disappeared (0). Some progress has been made but a long way short of what is needed – my marks out of 4 in brackets (!).
Don MacFarlane
September 1, 2012 at 6:21 pm
I don’t think the UN made much of a contribution to the peace process in Northern Ireland firt time round. That fell to the US, notably Bill Clinton and George Mitchell. They might need to recall George Mitchell to NI to get the local politicians to pull their socks up. Or Mitchell could be well-placed to bring some peace to the Middle East as he is half-Lebanese?
Eileen Breen
September 1, 2012 at 6:41 pm
I would like to see more work done with “the Disappeared”. There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions. Sectarianism in all parts of the world also needs to be addressed and there is a continuing need for education. I was thinking about the Bill of Rights issue: Perhaps we should get some new blood in there, namely Jimmy Carter. He’s worked all over the world on humanitarian issues. Perhaps also some Irish citizens who are not government officials and who could keep the government on their toes.
Don MacFarlane
September 1, 2012 at 7:18 pm
I would bring back people who were known to be focussed on finding the truth, who were totally impartial and who were hushed up – first amongst those would be John Stalker. There has been talk about a Truth Reconciliation Oommittee but so far nothing has come of it. Michael Portillo or Chris Patten were politicians who rose above party politics, took risks and very much were seen as honest brokers but for me the right man would be Peter Bottomley. To keep it nice and tidy there should be no more than four of these commissars so there should be two females to give out the right message. If Nuala O’Loan could be persuaded to come back that would be good, even though I don’t particularly like her demeanour and style and Brid Rogers would balance Peter Bottomley’s political stance. That should do it and Judith Gillespie should also be the next Chief Constable.
Eileen Breen
September 1, 2012 at 10:25 pm
Ireland seems so ahead of the USA in electing female politicians, police chiefs and executive positions. The good old boys in US politics make sure woman don’t get into the executive branch of government. Hillary got a raw deal when she tried to run for office. She has paved the way for others. The Reconciliation Committee sounds like a good idea maybe it will come to light. It will be interesting to see if any of your people make the cut.
Don MacFarlane
September 1, 2012 at 11:26 pm
Sign of the Times
Deputy Chief Constable, Judith Gillespie, receiving her medal for proficiency in the Irish language from Caral Ni Chuilin, Minister for Arts and Culture (and ex-IRA bomber).
Good on you, Judith, keep that grin in place!
Judith, the daughter of a Presbyterian minister, is of Ulster-Scots heritage and she is also proficient in French and German. She is also keen on fitness, as evident from her biceps, and she regularly pounds the streets of Belfast on her daily run.
Caral, convicted for explosive charges with intent to blow people to pieces, lit the Paralympic flame!
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 7:39 am
Shortly before this picture was taken, Caral Ni Chuilin (Carol Cullen) was made to climb down in the face of public controversy from her decision to appoint Mary McArdle as her personal assistant. Mary McArdle, an ex-IRA woman, had served a lengthy sentence for her part in the murder of Ann Travers, daughter of the judge, Tom Travers. The Travers family were targeted when leaving Mass and Ann (19) was shot in the back. Her Mum and Dad survived only because the guns jammed which were pointed at their heads. Judge Travers, one of the few Catholic senior members of the British Judiciary at the time, was a broken man – some would say foolish for having exposed his family to unnecessary risk. Until his death from natural causes he insisted the British Establishment, including Nuala o’Loan as Police Ombudsman – was complicit in covering up information that would have led to the arrest of the gunmen who escaped and were never brought to justice. Caral Ni Chuilin would know who these people are but Omerta Rules, OK?
Eileen Breen
August 31, 2012 at 12:41 am
Watching the Republican National Convention. They are quoting from the Bible for the second night in a row. What happened to the separation of church and state? Romney supporters are telling of Mitt’s spiritual direction and his rise from humble beginnings in the Mormon church. This is ok in a church setting but it doesn’t belong in the Republican National Convention. He’s downplaying international Affairs which is a huge mistake. We need someone who can deal with issues on the global stage.
Don MacFarlane
August 31, 2012 at 8:01 am
One of the issues I have with President Obama is how he came to be the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize when he was barely in the door of the Oval Office and the fact that he accepted it. The message that sent out for me was how low the bar was being set for efforts to secure international peace. I always on the other hand had a soft spot for Jimmy Carter who was arguably a more worthy recipient of the Nobel Prize. As for Henry Kissinger being awarded it, words fail me!
Eileen Breen
August 31, 2012 at 12:17 pm
I agree with you on Jimmy Carter. He was better as a humanitarian than as president. He’s a great role model. I think Mitt Romney was probably a role model in his church. I’m not so sure how he would be as president.
Eileen Breen
August 31, 2012 at 12:23 pm
I also thought it was a little weird that President Obama received the Nobel prize. I always thought it was for work done over a long career or working on the issue of peace like Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams, one Catholic and one Protestant, who became friends in Northern Ireland and worked on the peace process. They won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1976.
Don MacFarlane
September 2, 2012 at 10:33 am
Don MacFarlane
September 3, 2012 at 8:22 am
The Rogue Elephant
I couldn’t help but laugh when Dr d’Souza used an analogy of a rogue elephant when slating Obama. The elephant is the party symbol of the Republican Party! I don’t suppose there is such a thing as a rogue donkey?
Eileen Breen
September 3, 2012 at 9:02 pm
The Republican Party doesn’t like the symbol of the donkey as a representation of its Party. They wanted to change the symbol a few years ago. I’m confused about one thing the speaker said. If Obama wants to align the US in the world then why fight against Imperialism? It seems we are doing the same thing. In an imperial nation that country would strive to be a superpower by gaining land, wealth and power. It does seem Obama picks and chooses which countries he wants to fight with. Libya and Egypt seemed like easier targets than Iran, Iraq and other countries with larger armies and weapons. Also by putting into power leaders the US likes then we also get what we want. As seen in the beginning of the film the world’s politics sound like a game of monopoly.
Mary Cornell
August 29, 2012 at 5:20 am
And the band played on- As a citizen of Northern Ireland, Don, doesn’t this get old? Same tune, different day. Both sides with the same rhetoric. On and on and on….
From u.tv- August 28,2012 ‘Police officers in riot gear held back protesters and supporters as missiles, including bottles and stones, were thrown – after a loyalist band defied a Parades Commission ban to march past the Catholic Church. It came after the Young Conway Volunteers were filmed playing a song alleged to be sectarian outside the church on the Twelfth of July.
An Orange Order parade is due to take place through the same area next month.The Ulster Covenant Centenary parade, expected to be the biggest Loyal Order parade ever held in Northern Ireland, will take place on 29 September.North Belfast DUP MP Nigel Dodds says the unionist community is angry at “the illogical, bizarre, erratic decisions of the Parades Commission, which is deeply hostile to the Loyal Orders”.
Don MacFarlane
August 29, 2012 at 7:15 am
A lot of it is now part of the culture – it even has a name now, ‘recreational rioting’ – and it lets off steam. Nobody pays too much attention to it apart from when it hits the news. It has little to do with specific issues or complaints but in this case they have made up one. The whole thing usually blows over till the marching season next year. The anniversary of the Ulster Covenant has perhaps hyped things up a bit this time round.
Nigel Dodds was a QC or what you would call an attorney who has a big chip on his shoulder. Some would say an understandable chip as he was a very fortunate survivor of a cowardly IRA attack perpetrated upon him while he was in hospital.
Mary Cornell
August 29, 2012 at 1:43 pm
The September 29 event is being touted as the largest Loyal Order parade ever in Northern Ireland so one can expect that the opposition will show up in equal numbers. Does this change the normal dynamics of the usual ‘recreational rioting?’
Mary Cornell
August 30, 2012 at 4:17 am
I think there is an inherent danger in this ‘recreational rioting’ that is done with no specific issues being addressed. The letting off of steam does entail mild violence and there isn’t a great amount of damage done, but what happens when a specific issue is involved, an issue that creates an intense emotional reaction from one side or the other? What about all of the men like Nigel Dodds who can, with very little effort, incite violence in this simmering pot called Northern Ireland? The country is sitting on a powder keg and playing with fire by ignoring these small episodes of discontent. They could be the swallows coming to warn of things to come.
Don MacFarlane
August 30, 2012 at 7:22 am
The recreational rioting is mostly done by the younger set from teenagers upwards with the full knowledge of parents. It goes back almost fifty years and if done on a Sunday the rioter would be told, “Seamus/Billy get out of your Sunday best if you’re going out to throw stones at soldiers” – old habits die hard.
Eileen Breen
August 30, 2012 at 11:05 pm
There is a good article from The Guardian: The Loyalists Create A New Flashpoint And Shoot Themselves In The Foot. It’s about the new marching orders for the 100th anniversary of the signing of the Ulster Covenant. People actually signed it using their own blood! If people choose to defy the new rules and play their sectarian music in front of Catholic churches namely St Patrick’s in Belfast they will be seen for the racists they are. I have a better idea: how about letting the LOL march in a circle until they get dizzy, maybe they will fall down and leave eveyrone alone.
Eileen Breen
August 28, 2012 at 12:54 pm
“Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.” – Apple Inc
Don MacFarlane
August 28, 2012 at 5:06 pm
From another famous philosopher – George W Bush
” There is an enemy that would like to attack America and I wish him all the very best!”
” I want to share with you this programme for two reasons – one, it’s interesting; two, my wife thought of it!”
” There is a lot of prayer going on for those whose lives have been turned upside down. And I’m one of them!”
” And it’s goodbye from the world’s biggest polluter!” (said, grinning, at G-8 Energy Summit).
” Immigrants have helped to transform our nation of more than 300 people!”
” I once met the mother of a child who was abducted by North Koreans right here in the Oval Office!”
” I’ll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened in this Oval Office!”
Mary Cornell
August 28, 2012 at 10:03 pm
Ambition is a drug that makes its addicts potential madmen.-
Emile M. Cioran
Eileen Breen
August 27, 2012 at 2:23 am
According to Assange the more secretive is a government the more there is a need to leak government information to force the government to put their business out in the open for all to see. I can agree with him that governments should not be so secretive in some things but some things should be kept private. It seems he has a strong following in the USA and abroad. Armstrong had his own secrets. He says that he never used performance enhancing drugs but I think he may have. He let his fans believe he was clean for years. Both men have caused suspicion because of their actions that will be present for years to come.
Don MacFarlane
August 27, 2012 at 7:08 am
Mavericks United
Similar to Assange there is the case of Gary MacKinnon who is fighting extradition to the US. He hacked into top-secret sites and is said to have threatened US security. He is diagnosed as autistic and did what he did to see if it was possible and there was no other motive. I guess all three could say they were mavericks who were harming no-one but themselves. All they were doing was bucking a system that needed to tighten its act up. Some would say that all three deserve medals for having completed Mission Impossible (not just Armstrong who was given his) and certainly not to be punished. But then where do you draw the line before you end up with people like Breivik (or indeed the IRA) who make up their own rules according to some agenda, even if it means killing people to emphasise their point?
Eileen Breen
August 27, 2012 at 12:21 pm
There should be a better measuring stick for the mavericks of the world. There’s no comparison between John Glenn American Astronaut who risked life and limb for the chance to explore outer space and Assange who tried to challenge government to batten down the hatches. The Young Irelanders risked their lives, their families and rocked the British government to obtain freedom for the Irish people. Assange seems to want to challenge the government by committing espionage. He risks lives by leaking this information. In his case he reaps the rewards but no one else does.
Don MacFarlane
August 27, 2012 at 11:38 pm
For my money, Lance Armstong is innocent of all charges levelled against him or he is ‘completely mad in the head’. Having been told he had a 3% chance of survival from his testicular cancer to then supposedly meddle with testosterone without medical supervision stretches the boundaries of credulity too far. Likewise to meddle with EPO when the Kenyan runners can achieve the same effect when training at altitude shows a high level of stupidity if faced with countless blood tests.
I am not as forgiving of Assange who works on the assumption that there is a conspiracy of silence and collusion within the higher reaches of the US government which needs exposed. Now that Bush, Rumsfeld, Rove etc have gone the new clean sheet is deserving of some faith and to be given a chance. I don’t have much belief in President Obama but I do not believe he has a dirty pair of hands.
Where this all relates to Ireland in my book is that Churchill said it best ” Democracy is the worst form of government , except for all the others”.
Eileen Breen
August 28, 2012 at 12:24 pm
Lance Armstrong gave up his fight to clear him of all charges. Like Don said he fought cancer and won why give up now if he feels he is innocent? Did you see the movie Apollo 13? My brother worked with a few of the men who were engineers (among the thousands) that helped bring the men home. He liked the part of the film where they used the slide rulers.
Don MacFarlane
August 27, 2012 at 11:48 pm
I don’t know much about John Glenn but Neil Armstrong was an incredibly brave man, not to mention Buzz Aldrin and Michael Collins who lived in his shadow. Armstrong could not have pulled off what he did without their consent. In its own way, what they did was a form of fanatical pursuance of a goal which was not far short of madness. All right for the powers that be to crow that they were getting one over on the Ruskies but it was Armstrong and Co that put their lives on the line – the difference between a pig and a hen, one shows commitment, the other makes a contribution.
Mary Cornell
August 28, 2012 at 4:39 am
Lance Armstrong is a cheater who showed a total disregard and disrespect for his sport and for all athletes who compete in their respective sports without cheating. Assange is a whistleblower who put many lives in danger for his own personal agenda. Neither of these men have any altruistic reasons for what they did; they wanted to be seen as heroes and were willing to do whatever it took to achieve their goals. Villains? I would say so. Where is the accountability? Where is the remorse for the actions they took? If there were to be any apologies forthcoming, they would sound hollow. Because they are; men like this have no regrets. I do not put MacKinnon in this category. He had nothing to gain except a prison sentence by his actions. And if any government were smart, they would put him on the payroll so he could put his abilities to use.
I would not draw national lines when it comes to those men who went into space. Yuri Gagarin, the first man in space, was Russian. John Glenn, the first man to orbit the Earth, and the other Mercury astronauts were the brave ones who saw what no man had seen before, the Earth from outer space. They paved the way for the Apollo astronauts to reach the moon. Amazing to me, they did it with slide rulers! Yes, they had computers, but they backed them up with the human brain. These men had the kind of bravery that I cannot comprehend. The Mercury astronauts, the Russian cosmonauts and the Apollo astronauts were the first to sit on tons of explosives and trusted that they would escape the Earth’s gravity in one piece. Gordon Cooper actually fell asleep waiting for the countdown. And believed they would also return when the job was done.
Godspeed, Neil Armstrong.
Eileen Breen
August 28, 2012 at 12:37 pm
“Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet shed under the heel that crushed it” – Mark Twain
Eileen Breen
August 27, 2012 at 2:06 am
“Not everyone can be famous but everyone can be great because greatness is determined by service” – Martin Luther King
Don MacFarlane
August 27, 2012 at 7:40 am
Quotes from Steven Weinberg
” The effort to understand lifts human life a little above the level of farce”.
” For good people to do evil – that takes religion”.
Don MacFarlane
August 26, 2012 at 9:43 am
Thanks for the tragic story of the brig Despatch that foundered off the coast of Newfoundland with an amazing account of the Grace Darling-type rescue efforts of George Harvey but was he mad, putting the lives of his two teenage children at risk in such high seas for total strangers? This is a story that has been covered in a book by Alice Walsh and the image of the rescue appears as the frontispiece of her book on ‘Heroes of Isle aux Morts’.
http://www.isleauxmorts.ca/official_ah_nomination.php
Those that were lost amongst some others were:
4 members of the Bagster (Baxter) family from Cappagh (Drumragh) in Tyrone (2 adults and 2 children)
Husband of Margaret Gordon from Leckpatrick, Tyrone
4 members of Hamilton family of Tullybeg (Innishkeel) in Donegal (2 parents and 2 siblings)
Husband of Mary Graham from Raphoe, Donegal
2 young sons of Hart family of Urney in Tyrone / Donegal
Parents and sister in Mehaffey family of Taughboyne (Raphoe) in Donegal
Parents and 2 sisters in McMullan family from Termanveny (Termoneeny?), Derry
Charles Cochran of Strabane
I would be fairly confident in saying that many of these families left Ireland as some either church-sponsored or church-approved venture. From their names they appear to be planter Ulster-Scots from rural communities – Baxter (not Bagster), Gordon, Mehaffey, Hamilton and Graham.
Don MacFarlane
August 24, 2012 at 9:27 am
Blog Visitors
Derryweb versus Western Isles (Scottish Hebrides), Last Quarter
Derry
US 2911
UK 1464
AUS 410
Canada 299
Hebrides
UK 1340
Canada 1177
US 1172
AUS 334
The stand-out message is how much interest there is from Canada in the Western Isles of Scotland,and how little interest from there in County Derry. Derry Port was the major transit route in the 1800s to North America and many emigrants went to Quebec but that was often only en-route to the US. Hence, why so little interest?
Eileen Breen
August 24, 2012 at 12:12 pm
Maybe not everyone realizes their origins or the history. Seems like there is a lot of interest from Canada wanting to learn about Scotland. Perhaps an article on Derry would spark some interest? The Derry visitor site has been working on a lot of great activities for this year. I wish I was there to enjoy it. You can put the site on your Facebook page to see all the events.
Don MacFarlane
August 25, 2012 at 8:20 am
On checking further, there was substantial emigration from Derry Port to North America during the whole of the nineteenth century, of the order at its peak of 20,000 per year. A number of shipping lines cashed in on this lucrative trade – the Cooke and McCorkell lines based in and leaving fom Derry; the Allan and Dominion lines calling en route from England to pick up passengers. Canadian destinations were only during the Summer months (perhaps from a fear of icebergs?) and disembarkation was either from Quebec, St Johns Newfoundland or Halifax Nova Scotia. On average, 60% of passengers were from Donegal (mostly Inishowen where I did my recent bikerun), 20% from Tyrone and the rest from Derry. According to the Liverpool Maritime Museum, there are no passenger lists prior to 1890 as there was no requirement to give details, only to buy a ticket.
All told, the message appears to be that there should be significant interest from Canada in Derry and its hinterlands.
Don MacFarlane
August 25, 2012 at 12:34 pm
If North America was the intended destination it would have been a direct journey without stopovers, no need to go to Glasgow or Liverpool. Brian Mitchell has a book out on the shipping lists from Derry to North America. A bit naughty of him I think as he should have, metaphorically, taken a page out of Bill Macafee’s book who has put all of his data on-line for free.
Mary Cornell
August 26, 2012 at 4:03 am
The Ships List site has several large sections of passenger lists to Canada from NI, Ireland and Scotland from 1803 and forward. There is at least one McFarlane family listed eg in 1817 it shows Protestant and Catholic families from County Wicklow and County Carlow who had signed up to go to New Ross. There were 281 Catholic families (1475 people) and 710 Protestant families (4027 people) but not all sailed. There weren’t any arrival records, but some of the ships kept records for bookkeeping purposes of those who did not sail for various reasons (death, money owed etc).
The link is for the brig Dispatch which wrecked and sank on August 2, 1828 off the coast of Newfoundland with a list of the survivors from Counties Tyrone, Donegal and Londonderry.
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/Wrecks/dispatch1828.shtml
As for why the numbers from Canada are not as large as they should be is anyone’s guess but along those lines shouldn’t the inquiries from the US to the Hebrides site show larger numbers as the immigration to the US was rather substantial?
Don MacFarlane
August 25, 2012 at 9:13 am
Thank God, I didn’t run into scary monsters!
The location of the currently released Irish spoof-horror film, ‘Grabbers’, was set along my cycle-run.
Eileen Breen
August 25, 2012 at 12:11 pm
I like the quote from the film: “It’s always the quiet places where the mad shit happens”. This looks like a crazy movie! BTW: Did you see they found the Loch Ness Monster last week- They got pictures and everything!
Don MacFarlane
August 26, 2012 at 11:54 am
Something to Ponder
Who’s the biggger hero/villain, Lance Armstrong or Julian Assange?
Eileen Breen
August 26, 2012 at 7:57 pm
Check out the UTUBE video: The Face Of America: The Ellis Island Immigration Museum. There are a few Uncle Sam political cartoons in the beginning of the film.
Mary Cornell
August 24, 2012 at 5:36 am
Here is a two year old interview that President MIchael Higgins did before he was elected and all I have to say is “Bravo! Mr. Higgins.” He completely rips apart the Tea Party and the interviewer. I completely agree with his opinion of the Tea Party and those who follow them. Detractors from both sides of the ‘pond’ comment that Mr. Higgins should worry more about what is going on in Ireland, but I say the man is entitled to voice his opinion on the US or any other subject he chooses. I wish every leader could comment on every issue with this kind of emotion. He may have his naysayers in Ireland, but I applaud his forthrightness on the issue of the Tea Party. “Couldn’t have said it better, myself.”
If you want to see more comments, there was an article today in the Irish Independent in which Irish comments hold no bones on their opinions, both good and bad, of President Higgins interview.
Don MacFarlane
August 24, 2012 at 7:26 am
Presidential Election Outcomes Influence Suicide Rates.
‘The Politics of Despair’ (Dunn and Classen, 2010).
” Sure, supporting the loser stinks but if everyone around you supported him it isn’t so bad. It was more comforting to be a Democrat in Massachusetts when George Bush was re-elected than being the lonely Democrat in Idaho or Oklahoma”.
The message from the quote appears to be, ‘use your vote wisely, it may kill you’. There is an inherent contradiction in the quote, can anyone spot it? Meantime, the Huffington Post predicts that if the unemployment rate in US does not dip below 5.6% Obama and Biden will lose. There is no mention of the issues being a factor in the outcome that Michael D Higgins was on his soapbox about.
By the way, anyone notice that Michael D always uses a Windsor knot in his tie. What does that say?
Eileen Breen
August 24, 2012 at 11:46 am
So do people really take politics that seriously that they would want to kill themselves over it? It’s better to vote than not. In America we take voting for granted. Many people in other countries risk their lives for the chance to vote. Someone’s political agenda wouldn’t do me in.
Eileen Breen
August 24, 2012 at 12:04 pm
So is the Windsor knot reflective of Higgins’ views on politics? Is he on the side of the Royalists? I like the look of the Windsor knot but I’m not a Royalist!
Don MacFarlane
August 24, 2012 at 1:20 pm
It looks to me that Michael D needs everything to be big to compensate for his small stature. They say if your tie reaches down as far as your knees (that is being polite!)you need to put a double-knot in it. 😉
He is a foot shorter than his wife, he is the same height as his pet mountain dog, he talks too loud and too long (those in the know say you don’t sit next to him at the dinner table or he will bore the pants off you in five minutes max) and he wears a tie that is too big and was invented by the Duke of Windsor.
He has also been described as a hobbit (or even a leprechaun) who talks in verse and riddles. Apart from all that I suppose he is alright or as my Mum used to say, ” he is harmless”! He only became President (he was last in the poll up till the last round – everybody was too busy digging dirt on each other but overlooked Michael D. as they thought he was too insignificant) because all the other candidates were even worse.
Mary Cornell
August 24, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Well, I can see why elections are so contentious in Ireland what with the voters looking at ties and family pets. I keep chuckling about the Windsor knot. Is there a Dublin knot or Derry knot that I am unaware of that he could use instead as to not offend the nationalists? Or are you suggesting that maybe he should shop in the children’s section for his tie. Possibly a clip-on would suit his stature. They are notoriously too short. 🙂
Aside from his Napoleon complex, not being an Irish citizen, how does he rate as a leader when it comes to solving the problems of the country? If your answer is what I think it will be, then he is no better or no worse than any other politician. Sad to say, this is how many Americans feel about all politicians. We vote for the best of the lot; this does not speak to the quality of the lot.
As for the Canadian interest in Scotland and not Derry – if Derry was simply a embarkation point for emigrants from Scotland to North America, there isn’t really any information that can be garnered from the Derry site. For those who later emigrated into the US from Canada, your numbers would show the inquiries coming from the US. It is possible that many of the ‘hits’ to the site are from Scottish emigrants to Canada who later came to the US.
Don MacFarlane
August 24, 2012 at 4:49 pm
The Irish Presidency is simply symbolic and ceremonial and the holder of the office has no Cabinet or executive powers whatever, in other words he/she presides over nothing. A bit like the Queen, only it is an elected position which in theory but very little in practice guards the constitution, it is not a hereditary one.
Don MacFarlane
August 24, 2012 at 5:30 pm
My curiosity is about whether Derry folk almost invariably travelled to the US and hardly ever to Canada? I know that Hebridean folk went in droves to Canada and not much to the US so I don’t wonder about that so much. In other words were the emigration trends the mirror image of each other? 😮
Don MacFarlane
August 24, 2012 at 7:32 pm
Grosse Ile Immigration, Ireland-Quebec 1830s
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/grosse-ile-immigration/001053-130-e.html#c
Clearly there was a substantial flow to Canada from Ireland, about 20,000 passengers per year.
Also, a good many of them sailed out of Derry on the Cooke and McCorkell shipping lines.
Why then so little search activity from Canadian descendants into their Irish ancestors?
Mary Cornell
August 24, 2012 at 8:01 pm
One possibility-
The reasons why there was a large Scottish immigration to Canada and why there was little immigration by the Irish to Canada may be one in the same. Canada was a British held territory. The Irish were trying to leave behind British rule. The Scottish did not have the same dislike for British rule.
Don MacFarlane
August 26, 2012 at 9:05 pm
There would appear from the contemporaneous Canadian newspaper cuttings to be loads of evidence of a well-trodden emigration path from Ireland to Canada, not just Canada being a portal of entry to the US (see latest posts on the Folkways page).
Joan H. Turner
August 23, 2012 at 5:09 pm
In the US, the origin of the term “Lace Curtain” Irish is a perjorative which was common to Boston in the early immigration. It referred to the tattered and torn curtains hung in windows in the Irish tenements. Much later, it was a reference to the more educated and wealthy immigrants and “Shanty Irish” referred to those less fortunate.
Mary Cornell
August 21, 2012 at 12:20 am
It will definitely be something to watch.
One more reason why the rest of the world can view the US in a bad light– Did you read where Sen.Todd Aken stated that in a ‘legitimate’ rape, conception rarely occurs (a response to his anti-abortion stance). For me, the statement of a complete idiot. And this idiot is in office! Lord help us from this kind of thinking.
BTW For an atheist, you seem to spend an awful lot of time at religious functions, Don. And there is also a group of gay men wondering if you and your friend are in the ‘other’ closet. I think your next book should be one on your misadventures.
Eileen Breen
August 21, 2012 at 12:16 pm
There’s no legitimate rape. In both rape and unprotected sex the risk for a woman to get pregnant is 5%. There is no defense system in the body that can protect against pregnancy. Sen Aken may have got the facts wrong.
Eileen Breen
August 19, 2012 at 10:27 pm
FFT: Catholics are the new Protestants in American politics. It’s the first time in an American Presidential election that a Protestant is not on the ticket. Former MA Gov. and Presidential candidate Mitt Romney is Mormon, VP candidate Paul Ryan and VP Joe Biden are Catholic. President Obama is “Christian”.
Don MacFarlane
August 19, 2012 at 11:19 pm
WASPs RIP
Not to tread where angels fear to tread, but why was Obama so ‘behind the door’ so long about his white heritage. His genetic makeup is 50:50 but he is always talked about as the first black President? Is that a benign form of racism or what?
Mary Cornell
August 20, 2012 at 6:13 am
Was he ever ‘behind the door?’ He was always honest about his mother and father. President Obama sees himself as a black man. Sad to say, even in this day of so called enlightenment, he will always be seen as the African American president, no matter the percentages. We have not come as far as we think we have or he would simply be known as the President.
Is racism ever benign?
Don MacFarlane
August 20, 2012 at 7:41 am
A Matter of Definition?
Racism Definition: A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among various human races determine actual or potential cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race [or age or sex, see below] is superior and has the right to rule others.
For the above, substitute Sexism or Ageism and the definition works equally well.
Don MacFarlane
August 20, 2012 at 8:22 am
Presumably they are all Christian, not just Barack Obama? Although I do sympathise with him in choosing not to be defined by denomination. It reminds me of one night I was at a house-blessing. As the only ‘non-Catholic’ there, I spent a good part of the evening dodging about from room to room to avoid being conspicuous in refusing communion. The eagle-eyed priest finally caught up with me in a broom cupboard! In President Obama’s case, as I understand it, his religious background is indeed very mixed – his Irish roots are Protestant (Church of Ireland), his Dad was Muslim and he went to a Catholic school (same as I did).
Eileen Breen
August 20, 2012 at 10:25 am
What irritates me most about President Obama is that he turns off and on his race or religion depending on who he’s talking to. He knew after 911 America was not going to vote for a Muslim so he said he was Christian. The Christian church he belonged to was one of the most racist churches I have ever heard. When people gave him heat about it when he was running for president he quickly changed his church and put up a Christmas tree in the White House.
Mary Cornell
August 20, 2012 at 5:40 pm
The broom cupboard!! Rather than simply telling the priest you could not receive communion, you spent the night darting from room to room. I would have loved to have seen that. Presumably, there were people at the house blessing who knew you were not Catholic, so I do not understand your reluctance (fear) to simply say so. What was your response to the priest when he finally cornered you? I am sure that it was not amusing at the time, but now this is a priceless story.
Being referred to as Christian usually implies that one is a member of a non-denominational church.
Don MacFarlane
August 20, 2012 at 6:33 pm
You could call me a closet Protestant!
I have been in Catholic churches lots of times and I was even asked once to hand round the collection plate – which I did! I also contributed a substantial amount of money once to pay for a religious statue for the local Catholic church – I don’t talk about that much. I guess much of that comes from my Catholic maternal grandmother whom I adored and she is still (God rest her) one of my favourite people.
I was also very pally once with a priest who insisted on introducing me to his Bishop as his pet Protestant! I have never knowingly taken Communion, a hang-up from my mother who likewise never took Communion in her whole life despite being a devoted church-goer who never missed a Sunday.
Mary Cornell
August 19, 2012 at 4:17 am
I think that the success of the food for thought page is mainly due to Eileen. It is her passion for all the subjects that makes it interesting and fun respond to the topics we are talking about at the time. 🙂 Kudos, Eileen.
A few days ago, I read on u.tv of the problems in Rasharkin over limiting the number of bands in a parade by the unionists through the mainly nationalist Rasharkin community. I saw tonight where the decision to limit the number of bands to 25, not 44, was upheld. Am I correct in thinking that the number of bands greatly outnumbers the percentage of unionists in the community? Of course, there are going to be tensions when once again the unionists wish to parade through a nationalist neighborhood with overwhelming numbers and with names like Sons of Conquerors. I do not disagree with their right to freedom of speech, etc., but they seem to want to do it with such an ‘in your face attitude’ and then have the nerve to be surprised when they are called out.
One of the reasons I remember it is because one of the comments on the earlier article was something to the effect that the rights of British citizens are being denied when they are being held accountable for their choices by the nationalists. To me, this is the crux as to why there may never be peace in Northern Ireland, only a bare tolerance for each other, as long as one side sees themselves as British citizens and the other side sees themselves as Irish citizens. I do not see a middle ground anywhere.
Don MacFarlane
August 19, 2012 at 8:37 am
LOL Inside Track on Disputed Parades
http://www.bandparades.co.uk/
My biggest objection to these bands is the crimes they commit against music! Seriously, a big puzzle to me is why they pick on sleepy little Rasharkin which has no historical significance whatever, or indeed any other similar irrrelevant venue. That area is indeed loaded with history (not Rasharkin itself which is a backwater) and they should plump for Donegore Hill which is just down the road from Rasharkin. There is nothing there but fields where no-one would hear them, they could burn an effigy of a United Irishman if they like, light a big bonfire, have as many bands as they liked with full TV coverage, a bit like Scarvagh. If it could be seen as anything other than triumphalism, it might all die down. In other words, organisers of parades should explain to the Parades Commission the reason for their venues and be able to justify them.
Don MacFarlane
August 19, 2012 at 6:56 pm
Gay Orangemen LOL (by the way, LOL stands for Loyal Orange Lodge, not Laugh Out Loud!)
Don MacFarlane
August 19, 2012 at 8:38 pm
Did you notice they were all middle-aged? Puts me in mind of a GLBT meeting a straight colleague of mine invited me to attend. I thought I recognised one of the other attendees but I couldn’t quite place him. Afterwards he followed me down the street, as he also vaguely recognised me, and he started up some light conversation. Then the mutual recognition dawned as to who each of us was but our conversation was at cross-purposes. By way of catching up as we hadn’t met for years I said I was going through a period of transition (unfortunate choice of phrase I admit, but meaning I was heading into retirement). I asked him how his own transition was going and he informed me his wife and grown-up children had taken it hard but they were all again on speaking terms. They were all accepting that he was happier with his new life and his new boyfriend now that he had discovered his true sexuality. Realising I had just left a GLBT meeting,at this point I beat a hasty retreat! The scrapes I get myself into!
Eileen Breen
August 19, 2012 at 8:49 pm
Our prejudices are so deeply rooted that we never think of them as prejudices but call them common sense – George Bernard Shaw
Mary Cornell
August 19, 2012 at 8:56 pm
I disagree that ‘once a racist, always a racist’ idea. I think that with truly gaining knowledge, all knowledge (not just selected items off the menu), it is possible to become more empathetic and introspective. It may open up the possibility toward growth and a loss of existing ideas, including those of racism. Racism is present in both a closed mind and in an ignorant mind.
Eileen Breen
August 19, 2012 at 11:01 am
I think everyone has brought some great topics to the table! Don gets us to think about things in a different perspective. Kudos to all! I agree with you both on the bands. Too bad they couldn’t get all the towns in the area to march for charity instead of the sectarianism they preach.
Don MacFarlane
August 19, 2012 at 12:33 pm
Include me in that! The dialogue with you both has prompted me to think in a different way about many topics that had barely or long ago entered and departed my consciousness. It hasn’t though altered my gut reactions to certain things, in the same way that the King Billy mural got to Eileen, and I despise Imperialism and Republicanism with equal vengeance. I hate bullies of whatever hue and a hero of mine from whose Gallows Speech I quote in my book is William Orr of Donegore, a Presbyterian, who would put all those Orangemen and Feinners to shame:
“If to have loved my Country and to have felt the injuries of persecuted Catholics be felonies, then I am a felon. I leave five living children who have been my delight and may they love their Country as I have done. With this last wish of my heart I die in peace and charity with all mankind”.
Eileen Breen
August 17, 2012 at 6:46 pm
I came across a UTUBE video: No Go: The Free Derry Story Part 1/6.
Eileen Breen
August 15, 2012 at 7:49 pm
There was an article in the Irish Independent that a recent poll shows people in Ireland are 84% Catholic. When asked if they were religious, meaning did they obey all the rules and regulations, the number plummeted. There is a new divide in Ireland,not between Catholics and Protestants, but whether you are religious or an atheist. The poll states that for the first time more people are identifying themselves as atheist.
Don MacFarlane
August 15, 2012 at 8:15 pm
Better still, another poll found there were more Polish immigrants, but in Ireland long enough to exercise a right to vote as citizens, than Free Presbyterians. This means that if they voted, DUP would no longer be the party in power in NI and Martin McGuinness would be First Minister!
Don MacFarlane
August 15, 2012 at 10:41 pm
Something tells me Winnie won’t be back. There has been a veritable smorgasbord of topics since she left so there has been no lack of bait for her to pick up on. But, as she herself might say, “Cest la vie” (it has to be said or thought with a Gallic shrug)!
The way I look at it, the FTT has taken the website onto a different plane – a kind of intelligent Facebook – and it is no longer strictly parochial to Derry, which pleases me greatly, thanks mostly to yourself, Eileen, and Mary. The Bookclub and Media pages have fallen away but that’s OK, their day might come.
Don MacFarlane
August 15, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Kenyans More Irish than the Irish?
Brother Colm O’Connell (mentor, teacher and coach to David Rudisha, 800 metre Olympic Champion 2012).
“I feel more at home here in Kenya than back in Ireland where the expectations are now more immediate and maybe even higher” (!).
Eileen Breen
August 14, 2012 at 8:04 pm
FFT: The Saudi Royal family is banning web sites that end in Catholic. Their objection is that other Christian-based religions use the term catholic not just the RC Church. The RC Church paid $158,000 for the use of the domain name .Catholic. It already owns the domain name .va (vatican). The Saudi Royal family objects to and is fighting to prevent any domain names with religious, sexual, alcohol, pornography, Gay/Lesbian content. The Catholic Church will be fighting for the use of the domain name this year. I think it’s interesting the Catholic church can’t have control over their name that identifies who they are.
Don MacFarlane
August 14, 2012 at 8:29 pm
Weird that a Muslim autocracy finds it necessary to stick its nose into Christian affairs. They would be better sorting out their own Sunni/Shia differences – “people in glass houses …..” springs to mind?
As a Protestant who went to a Catholic school, I remember finding it confusing that I was excluded from Assembly but I was expected to learn the Catechism as part of Religious Education and to recite the Apostolic Creed. The bit in the Creed which went, “We believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic Church ….” confused me further till it was explained to me that Catholic only meant Universal, so that was all right then? It was all out-of-kilter as I discovered afterwards that one will never find a Presbyterian Church that demands to be referred to as Catholic!
Footnote: The Russian Orthodox Church uses the Sign of the Cross but they do it in reverse as they believe it to be bad luck to do it the way that is practised in the RC Church. It is interesting to go back to the time when the two Catholic churches, East and West, separated at the time of the Great Schism and had two Popes, one for each (Eastern one had became known as Patriarch, not Pope). Muslims,even then, and in the form of the Ottoman Empire which had taken over that part of Eastern Europe, protected the Eastern Catholic Church from Roman influence, not for any religious reasons but to keep Eastern Christians on-side. This perhaps explains the interest of Saudis who insist on it being known that there is more than one Catholic Church. Prof Diarmaid McCulloch covers this ground very well.
Eileen Breen
August 14, 2012 at 10:05 pm
I had never heard of other people calling other Christian churches as Catholic. I also found it strange to say the same prayers every week. Why not mix it up a little! Variety is the spice of life! The Indian and Celtic religions had a God for the Sun, one for the Moon, another for the crops or whatever. At least they knew Who to trust. Instead of one Person saying they have absolute control over everything including one’s body!
Mary Cornell
August 13, 2012 at 6:37 am
I was very intrigued with the McConville mystery. And the fact that it still is a mystery. I suppose it may remain so because too many people on both sides have too much to lose. As for the Boston Report, the interviews of the former IRA members were given with the promise of anonymity until their deaths. I believe that those promises should be kept. It is a difficult situation– do we try to learn the truth by opening the report and by doing so place numerous lives in danger or do we let it lie and keep promises hoping that those who should be held accountable are still alive? I am of the thought to just let it alone because putting more blood on our hands to learn the truth, is not worth the cost. It will come out and it might just be a truth that the McConville family may not want to hear.
Speaking of the accountability of McGuinness, the Irish Independent has done a recent McGuinness Cover Article.
Don MacFarlane
August 13, 2012 at 10:58 pm
My vote goes to the Welsh who lived alongside the English for centuries without seeing the need to fight them, gave up their autonomy without a thought, even fought their dirtiest English battles for them but they still have a much stronger sense of Celtic identity and have held on to their language much better than the other Celts.
Y ddraig goch ddyry gychwyn! I say! No need for McGuinness there, boyo!
Footnote: An Irish princess was Queen of England for a while, there’s a puzzler!
Eileen Breen
August 13, 2012 at 11:36 pm
Between 1966-2003 during The Troubles in Northern Ireland 3,703 people died. 40,000 people were injured. The IRA was responsible for about 60% of the fatalities. The militant unionists (loyalist paramilitaries) were responsible for 30% and the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the British Army was responsible for the remainder. – Edwards and McGrattan
Don MacFarlane
August 13, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Just taking New Orleans at random, murders in the period 1966-2003 could be estimated at about six thousand, roughly twice the murders during the Troubles in NI
http://miamifl.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=New+orleans&s1=LA&c2=New+York&s2=NY
Comparative figures for countries can be downloaded from
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=tAJzrYuGxXOGbU_HO2s_PrQ
A sample of these, listing homicide rates per 100k population show:
Afghanistan (3.4); Albania (6.6); Bahamas (22.5); Belize (30); Colombia (60); Ivory Coast (45); Norway (0.8); Northern Ireland (2.4); US (5.9).
Notably, there are twice as many US citizens killed in US by homicide annually as there are people killed in Afghanistan. By comparison, NI is one of the safer countries by far in the world in which to live, even despite the IRA. Even at the height of the Troubles, the murder rate of civilians in NI was only half of the continuing annual rate in the Caribbean.
By comparison, the likelihood that a newborn baby is likely to die before reaching the age of five by country and by deaths per 1000 births is:
Afghanistan (150); Albania (18); Australia (5); Bahamas (16); Bhutan (56); Chad (173); Colombia (22); India (63); US (8).
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.DYN.MORT
Even in the worst countries, still a lot less than in Ireland and Scotland at the time of the mass exodus to North America in the 1800s – doesn’t say much for the humanitarianism of the British Government towards its own citizens at the time. Three hundred times as many people were killed by the Irish Famine as by the Troubles.
Eileen Breen
August 14, 2012 at 11:58 am
How can they compare these small countries on the same scale as a country the size and population of the US and India. It seems the countries that have a better health care system and a democratic government may have lower infant deaths and homicide rates. Maybe the US homicide rate would be higher if we didn’t have the means to help those who were injured? New Orleans does seem to be a dangerous place and it seems our government just ignored that place for too long. When we had Hurricane Katrina we saw first hand the US government’s ignorance in abandoning its own people.
Don MacFarlane
August 14, 2012 at 12:24 pm
The relative sizes of these countries are factored in as the figures are rates per hundred thousand, not just raw counts. I think it would be incumbent upon heads of state to take whatever lessons they can from the figures as sometimes answers are obvious, sometimes not. Deathrates for coronary heart disease, hypertension, prediabetes, alcohol dependence and suicide also differ between the following regions – subhimalayan, subtropical Africa, West Africa, Horn of Africa, Baltic States, Philippines, North America, Australasia, Balkans. All of these conditions go hand in glove but with different peaks and troughs and closer scrutiny is quite revealing. It’s too esoteric for this forum but similar trends could be present for homicides and infant deaths. It all harks back to Ghandhi so that when asked what he thought of Western Civilisation his reply was “That would be nice!”.
Eileen Breen
August 14, 2012 at 6:52 pm
I agree with Ghandhi. I don’t think western civilization has all the answers. Look at all the eastern medicine that has helped many people. I saw a program on Tibet. In a city of over a million people, there are no traffic lights, just positive affirmations to be kind to others etc… In our cities in the USA we have millions of traffic signs but we’re not so kind to one another.
Don MacFarlane
August 12, 2012 at 1:59 pm
More Murky Business
One of a series of nine on the infamous Stalker Report on shoot-to-kill. The Chief Constable, Ronnie Flanagan, who killed off the Stalker Report, as well as John Stalker’s career, was rewarded with a knighthood and became Chief Inspector of Policing Standards in the UK. You couldn’t make it up!
Don MacFarlane
August 12, 2012 at 2:02 pm
A shorter version on Shoot-to-Kill
Eileen Breen
August 9, 2012 at 6:23 pm
“The underdeveloped countries can never expand, can never dig their way out of poverty, as long as the debts they accrue eat a way at the majority of their economy, as long as money is used to pay debts rather than educate feed, house, and care for the people. With the new century, perhaps, the more fortunate nations could forgive all the debt, allowing everyone to start afresh”. – Bono
Eileen Breen
August 10, 2012 at 12:40 am
So who do people trust? The celebs I’m sure felt that they did the right thing as well as the people that donated. In one place I worked in the management tried to get its employees to donate to a charity but the charity had a terrible track record and took over 60% for “administrative costs” plus gave the CEO 2 million dollars on his retirement. I refused to donate. Perhaps these charities should be investigated and the way its money is spent as well as the government who receives it.
I had a friend who went to Vietnam to volunteer. At the border the government attempted to take all their medical supplies. Eventually they were able to participate in their humanitarian mission. It’s sad that the money just went to the greedy. I saw that Children In Crossfire only takes one pence out of one pound for administrative costs. In Haiti a lot of the governments who sent aid after the earthquake wasted precious time taking photo ops instead of rescuing people. Perhaps governments need to make sure the funding is going to the right place.
Eileen Breen
August 10, 2012 at 11:41 am
I was also thinking of the saying “if you teach someone to fish you can feed a village”. Instead of just handing millions of dollars over to a country, if you can help people to learn about fair trade and how to make a living, people will be better off. Also education is so important. Many impoverished nations don’t invest in education for their people. The people can’t afford to pay for it so the cycle of poverty continues.
Don MacFarlane
August 10, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Too Good to be True?
A version of the microcredit scheme,conceived by Muhammad Yunus,which earned him the Nobel Peace Prize but, from the clip, the women are doing all the hard graft while the men are sitting in their air-conditioned offices. Nonetheless, might this have worked for the Irish and other Famines?
Eileen Breen
August 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm
It seems the women’s self help groups does a better job, charging less interest and allowing the woman to open a savings account. This way one can pay back the loan. It doesn’t sound like they are as intimidating as the microcredit schemers. The key is men want to be boss not the women even though the woman are the brains behind the business. Often the men in a culture are the ones that receive the education and not the women. India,like other cultures, need to invest in women, not just in men!
Don MacFarlane
August 10, 2012 at 5:48 pm
In Madeira, where I have been and which is Portuguese, you will find women slaving in the fields in the mid-day sun (dressed in woollen cardigans and wellington boots, strangely), while a half-mile up the road you will find their menfolk playing cards and drinking coffee at roadside cafes. These women are not yet middle aged but their skin is so wrinkled and so weather beaten but their daughters swank about Funchal, the capital, looking beautiful and dressed like something out of Vogue magazine.
Eileen Breen
August 10, 2012 at 10:45 pm
“A woman who thinks she’s intelligent demands equal rights with men. a woman who is intelligent does not” – Colette
Don MacFarlane
August 11, 2012 at 5:11 pm
Smacks of Cardinal Troy again, sounds like things have not moved on any?
‘Those whose education consists only of a few scraps from immoral writers should not speculate on the Rights of Man or investigate a moral maze of public causes that may exercise the public mind’.
In other words, Troy said a person should not fight for causes about which he/she knew little or nothing. Obviously Troy himself was an ignoramus who had never hesrd of the Scottish Enlightenment – a case of the kettle calling the pot black?
Don MacFarlane
August 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Gender Equity Index (ranking according to composite measure based upon education, earning power and influence).
Ireland (51), US (25), UK (26), Albania (104), Australia (16), Eritrea (135), Finland (2), India (155), Japan (93), Rwanda (3).
Earning Power (percentage of women who are wage earners)
Ireland (63), US (73), UK (73), Albania (61), Australia (75), Eritrea (54), Finland (78), India (36), Japan (55), Rwanda (84)
GDP per head (rounded)
Albania ($4k), Australia ($65k), India ($2k), Ireland ($48k), UK ($38k), US ($48k), Rwanda ($600), Eritrea ($480), Finland ($50k), Japan ($46k).
Empowerment (percentage of women who have some overt influence in decision making).
Ireland (46), US (52), UK (52), Albania (7), Australia (55), Eritrea (25), Finland (75), India (8), Japan (30), Rwanda (78).
The general message is that countries with women suppressed and disempowered are also amongst the poorest, in which their ‘citizens’ are struggling and are barely able to survive. It does not necessarily follow that giving women power and ability to earn makes any difference as can be seen in Eritrea and other African countries.
Leading Causes of Death
Albania (Heart and Stroke), Australia (Heart and Stroke), Eritrea (Influenza and Diarrhoea), Finland (Heart), India (Influenza and Diarroea), Ireland (Heart), Japan (Heart/Stroke and Influenza/Pneumonia)! Rwanda (Influenza and Pneumonia), UK (Heart and Stroke), US (Heart).
From these findings it is clear that most deaths in developed and third world countries are preventable through health education measures, more immediately so in the third world. Infant mortality rates are worst in Afghanistan, followed in steps and stairs fashion by Rwanda, India and Albania. Infant mortality in Afghanistan is way and beyond these others, being for example seven times as high as in Albania.
Don MacFarlane
August 15, 2012 at 9:06 pm
Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd)
Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Cold comfort for change
For a lead role in a cage?
Might have been written for the 1798 United Irish Rebellion, or for any other useless war ever since.
Eileen Breen
August 16, 2012 at 12:37 pm
The oral tradition in music, lyrics, storytelling in the age before television and radio could inspire nationalism, tell the emotion of what was happening to the leaders as well as the current events of the day. Even during the penal laws the music, songs and storytelling survived. “Irish music – all the war songs are happy and the love songs are sad”.
Eileen Breen
August 8, 2012 at 12:28 pm
I was reading The History Of Ireland By Malachy McCourt. There’s a chapter on James Joyce. He has a few things in common with you. He knew three languages and also had difficulty w/ publishers. They kept wanting him to make changes but he refused. A lot of his works (The Dubliners) were censored because they contained references to real people and places in Ireland. His daughter had a mental illness. She was analyzed by Carl Jung. He was her advocate and once when he didn’t like the care she received in a hospital he broke into the hospital and took her out of there. One of his books: Finnegans Wake contains 60 languages.
Eileen Breen
August 7, 2012 at 1:52 pm
I watched a video on Tiger’s Bay, looked at their website and read a brief history of the area. One of the articles “Love Thy Neighbor” and “In Jail With Jesus” struck a peculiar chord with me. How is marching on July 12th “loving your neighbor”? They seem to glorify men in prison and how they found Jesus. It was sad to see how many young people died during The Troubles and a young man who saw those that were killed as martyrs.
It was also peculiar that they want to love their neighbors but there are “peace walls” and CCTV’s everywhere. It seems people really want to live in the past. When we talk about events that shaped Ireland its easy to always bring up the past. In the peace process they address this that its important to speak of the past but then you have to move on. “Revisiting what was done in the past…runs the risk of not being understood by the current/ younger generation. Children today will probably find it difficult to imagine the threats and fears that inspired their fathers to take up arms”.
Eileen Breen
August 4, 2012 at 6:42 pm
Hi Guys! Check out on UTUBE from the Discovery Channel parts 1-5 on Grace O’Malley
Mary Cornell
August 4, 2012 at 7:13 am
Granuaile was definitely the original “iron lady.” And for a woman with her ‘pirate” past to be able to meet with the Queen, amazing.
“Women who behave, rarely make history.”- Unknown
Continuing on our sea theme- For all the ladies in “English bracelets’
Eileen Breen
July 31, 2012 at 8:11 pm
“I want to see an Ireland of partnership – where we wage war on want and poverty, where we reach out to the marginalized and dispossessed, where we build together a future that can be as great as our dreams allow”. – John Hume, Nobel Peace Prize, acceptance speech, 1998
Don MacFarlane
August 1, 2012 at 10:57 am
The Religious Persecution of the Vaudois of Piedmont
Even if your command of French isn’t the best, the pictures tell the story well enough!
http://www.info-bible.org/histoire/vaudois/tome1.htm
Eileen Breen
July 31, 2012 at 12:14 pm
Keep your thoughts positive because your thoughts become your words.
Keep your words positive because your words become your behavior.
Keep your behavior positive because your behavior becomes your habits.
Keep your habits positive because your habits become your values.
Keep your values positive because your values become your destiny. – Mahatma Gandi
Don MacFarlane
July 31, 2012 at 9:46 pm
The only things missing that need to be put in that mix are inclinations, intentions, instincts, obligations, expectations, goals, conflicts, satisfactions, roles, identifications?
Once you have all of these in perfect harmony at personal and societal level, then you are in Heaven?
Don MacFarlane
July 31, 2012 at 7:06 am
The nice thing about the Quinn story is that there is not a hint of schadenfreude at Quinn’s misfortunes. Perhaps also there is a quiet delight and sense of pride in Quinn’s roguish side that absolutely nobody suspected that he had. If there was such a thing as a secular sainthood, he would be awarded one overnight, warts and all.
This is the guy who played poker every Friday night in the local pub with matchsticks but he bet his £3 billion personal fortune at one fell stroke on the fortunes of the AngloIrish Bank in the stock market, and lost. The Bank was a basket case anyhow and Quinn should have checked his sums better, his naivete for such a shrewd businessmann was breathtaking. Now he is being crucified in the bankruptcy court but the Irish populus is fair square behind him. I don’t think Quinn will be committing suicide and he is an object lesson in how to handle despair for those that do.
Mary Cornell
July 31, 2012 at 4:20 am
I love it when I come back on this page and you guys have run the gamut of subjects! The time away seems to have done you good, Don. Your posts are more relaxed and more of your sense of humor is present. I enjoyed your newest youtube posts, Eileen. I only have one question, how did my cat get to Ireland.
On to the subjects at hand-
For MacGuinness, the man has either made a deal with the devil or his amorality places his ambitions to be won at any cost. Not for a second do I believe that he or any of his fellow IRA have changed their spots. They are simply placing themselves in positions that they feel will achieve their goals. I wonder if there is a portrait of the real MacGuinness hidden somewhere in his attic.
Prozac or Ecstasy? Made me think of my brother who recently started reading on neurotransmitters and amino acids and their affects on the brain and emotions. Might I suggest we add dopamine, serotonin, and GABA to the mix. Maybe, some sort of energy drink.
I think that Danny Boyle was smart in not including Britain’s imperialism in his Olympic opening. Not to detract from many of the great accomplishments of the British, there were also many awful things done in the name of the Crown. Observation- I realize that the Queen is along in years and it was a long night, but would it have killed her to smile a little?
I read where the IRA factions have joined into a “coalition.” Trying not to be cynical, but I see this as lasting for a day and a half before there is fighting within.
The many suicides reflect the hopelessness that many feel; a feeling that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Between the Orange order and MacGuinness, the despair is understandable. Describing the situation as the Troubles does not come close to describe what is happening politically, economically, or emotionally to the Northern Irish psyche.
Eileen Breen
July 31, 2012 at 12:01 pm
Don you said you liked the mural in Belfast depicting William III on his horse. Do you think that all these religious symbols and murals only add to the sectarian violence? I not speaking about the murals in Derry. I realize we need to show loss of life on both sides. It just seems wherever you look in Ireland there are religious symbols, parades and murals dividing neighborhoods. Perhaps if these constant reminders were downplayed especially the William III mural it wouldn’t add to the tensions there? This mural blatantly shows Wiliiam III on his white horse saving the day and protecting it’s people against the big bad Catholics. Couldn’t they find something more positive to paint like peace?
Eileen Breen
July 31, 2012 at 5:42 pm
I didn’t get to see either of these films but from what I read one emphasizes nationalism when the men toured the USA encouraging people to buy war bonds to fuel the war effort. These men were heroes like King Billy who fought for his beliefs. Letters From Iwo Jimo spoke about the horrors of War and devotion to their country on both sides: America’s and Japan’s.
I can see King Billy being immortalized for his love and devotion towards his country. However, I feel his presence on that wall is like rubbing one’s nose in it. It feels more sinister than nationalism or memorializing the loss of life and sacrifice for one’s country. The Orange Order emphasizes the Protestant victory over the Catholics. They march in Catholic neighborhoods to say they are better than everyone else. I don’t think I was glorifying war or oppression. Nothing good comes from either situation. I was trying to emphasize that even though we all love our countries we need to co-exist with one another.
Nothing put this to the test like when a Muslim mosque went up in New York City at Ground Zero. I hope there will be a time when the USA,Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and Muslim nations can continue to bridge their gap. I also hope the Republic and the North can stop the backlash and mudslinging that keep them divided. I feel we should love our countries but to a point placing less emphasis on our wars and nationalism and more on relationships we build with other countries. I thought it was great that Ireland forged the way to show other countries how they negotiated peace, worked to put people back to work and changed the economic situation around.
Don MacFarlane
July 31, 2012 at 6:59 pm
I had not given any particular thought to King Billy or how he is remembered till I saw that mural and it piqued my curiosity. I think I have a better understanding of the man now and, dare I say, a sneaking respect, though not that much, and his part in the MacDonald Massacre of Glencoe was pretty disgraceful. It is a pity how Orangemen have sullied his better motivations for their own purposes and glossed over his worse ones -Prince William did connive and resort to subterfuge too much for my liking.
I have no interest in hearing what Orange commentators have to say on the subject, as they just twist things to their own ends, and I would be much more interested in hearing what a Dutchman might say. In the meantime, here is a good website that throws much more light on the House of Orange-Nassau
http://geerts.com/Holland/house-orange4.htm
Eileen Breen
July 29, 2012 at 9:39 pm
The Battle Of The Boyne is celebrated on July 12th simply because somebody was mathematically challenged. In 1752 there was a change to the Gregorian Calendar so all the holidays had to be re-calculated. On the Old Calendar the date was July 1st, on the Gregorian Calendar the date should have been July 11th.
In the battle Protestants and Catholics fought one another with an interesting twist. In James’s army the soldiers were Irish, in William’s army the men were Anglo-Irish with Danish mercenaries that William hired from a Danish King. The goal was to get to Dublin and the Boyne River was the best way there, bypassing hostile territory.
James II was hated by his opponents for his Catholicism and William II was seen as a Protestant Saviour. He was depicted on a white horse,victorious in battle, but historians dispute this and say it was a dark horse.William II was Protestant but he had the support of Pope Innocent XI who even gave William a large sum of money. Some supporters changed sides during the war but their religion did not. The battle was between a Scotsman and a Dutchman fighting on foreign soil, over a dispute about the English Crown, and Irish issues were never raised.
The Orange Order was founded in 1795 and was modelled after the Masons. The Masons require a religious text to be used during their service but does not specify any specific text while the Orange Order requires that members must be Protestant. In the Battle of the Boyne fifteen hundred men were killed.
Don MacFarlane
July 29, 2012 at 11:47 pm
Indeed, there were quite a few twists. Here are a few more but to be taken with a pinch of salt as some of these are supposition and need to be further researched.
Pope Innocent XI inherited a massive deficit from his immediate predecessor as Pope who was very profligate, which Innocent recouped in smart order (running into millions of pounds) but he blew it all on supporting William of Orange.
If James II had been a proper Catholic and had taken his lead from the Pope, who was a very fair minded and ecumenical man, the war could have been completely averted.
Pope Innocent advocated religious freedom of worship, James wanted to suppress it. Orangemen fought for religious freedom supposedly but they fought against it (Catholic Emancipation).
Twice as many people died in the recent Troubles in Ireland (a legacy from the Battle of the Boyne) as died in the Battle of the Boyne.
One of the most Catholic countries in Europe (France), through the actions of Louis XIV and Napoleon, did their damnedest to destroy the Church of Rome. From them came the term Ultramontanism.
Napoleon would have liked to invade Ireland but he was busy elsewhere and the United Irishmen could not get enough support to back up a French invasion. Irish opted by default for British rather than French Rule.
If Napoleon had invaded, Paisley would later have had no work to do as Napoleon was much more anti-Pope than Paisley. Curiously, Napoleon wasn’t even French, he was from Sardinia which was Italian.
Eileen Breen
July 27, 2012 at 8:37 pm
Hi Don and Mary: I found a good video: Peace in Northern Ireland, But Religious Divide Remains. It was done by PBS.
It was interesting what is being done to keep and teach about peace and discrimination and diversity. Martin McGuinness said “you can’t just flip a switch and go from the darkness into the light.” “It takes time”. I think these are good lessons for people from all over the world that experience discrimination, prejudice and violence.
Don MacFarlane
July 28, 2012 at 12:47 pm
You could be right about McGuinness having been dropped on his head – I like that image! I am certain he is one of those people who could pass a lie detector with ease and I quote from something I wrote in a professional journal:
“one can readily see how the combination of Machiavellian egocentricity, social potency, impulsive non-conformity and blame externalisation might limit the usefulness of fMRI in lie detection. The question arises whether reduced activation of the orbitofrontal cortex and caudate nuclei may be telltale signs of greater stress immunity. Reduced activation of the ventral amygdalar fugal pathway, stria terminalis and hypothalamus might also point to the same effect”.
What all of that gobble degook boils down to is that psychopaths lack a proper stress response. So they are highly proficient at telling lies and can brazen things out even to camera. Nobody is better than McGuinness at doing that. His attack in last year’s Presidential elections on Sean Kelly over a brown envelope, conveniently overlooking his own murderous activities, was quite breathtaking.
Bring back Lord Alderdice, consultant psychiatrist and last Speaker in Stormont. A Danish guy I met in Munich once nearly split a rib when I told him the person charged with keeping Adams, McGuinness, Paisley and Co in line was a psychiatrist!
Don MacFarlane
July 29, 2012 at 5:54 am
Timeo Danaos et dona ferrentes.
Machiavelli would have been proud of him. McGuinness has been associated with, and possibly masterminded, mass murder yet his reward is to be pulling the levers of power and supping with the High and Mighty. His trump card is that the Powers-that-be turn a convenient blind eye and they have never scrutinised his claim that he was only ever a cheerleader, or a Divisional Commander who never got his hands dirty, for the IRA (!!). For them, all that matters is that he is seen as having brought the bad boys over with him from the ‘Dark Side’. However he managed to pull that one off is anybody’s guess and therein lies the rub.
Don MacFarlane
July 29, 2012 at 7:52 am
Hardly to be described as unbiased, this PR on behalf of Loyalists describes how King William has acquired almost demi-god status in the eyes of the Protestant community in Northern Ireland, whereas he is largely unheard of on the UK ‘Mainland’. What the spokespeople and historians neglect to mention as always is that Prince William’s adventure was financed by Pope Innocent XI! There has been a recent controversy over Pope Innocent whose remains were moved within the Vatican to make room for those of Pope John Paul II who is reputedly regarded with much more favour. In fact, some commentators would claim that the secrecy over Pope Innocent XI suits the Vatican as much as it suits the Orange Order. A painting by a famous Dutch painter that depicted the Pope giving a blessing to Prince William prior to going into battle hung in Stormont until it was slashed by Protestant vigilantes. The present whereabouts of that painting remains a closely guarded secret.
Don MacFarlane
July 29, 2012 at 11:37 am
From the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland
http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/history/Glorious_Revolution.html
“The true parting of the ways was the refusal of a Tory Parliament to repeal the Test Act, which excluded Roman Catholic and Protestant Dissenters from Office. If he [King James II] had only sought religious toleration he could have had it and that is what Pope Innocent XI and the Roman Catholic aristocracy advised. James however desired ascendancy for his co-religionists and not toleration. If Parliament would not do his bidding he would manage without it. After sitting for only eleven days Parliament was prorogued [disbanded]”.
Talk about hypocrisy! It was the Orange Order that propped up the AngloIrish ascendancy and delayed Catholic Emanicipation.
Don MacFarlane
July 29, 2012 at 2:58 pm
King Louis XIV of France was a bit of a megalomaniac who had designs on conquering Europe, not to mention Italy (shades of Charlemagne here?), and would not bend the knee to the Pope either. Pope Innocent XI believed that Prince William (and,through him, General Hugh MacKay) was the only person that could put King Louis back in his box. The French were the scourge of the Roman Catholic Church and did their best to destroy it, first King Louis XIV, then later Napoleon Bonaparte. Had they got their way it would be the French Catholic Church today, not Roman. It would grate on the Orange Order that it was their hero, King Billy, who saved the Catholic Church as we know it today?
Don MacFarlane
July 29, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Papal Histories
This well-constructed site is a good primer on the lives and reigns of Popes from the year dot.
http://www.papalartifacts.com/pope/15
Although the site makes no mention of Pope Innocent’s support for Prince William of Orange (a curious oversight) it does mention his efforts to save the Huguenots (French Protestants) from the infamous St Bartholomew’s Day mass slaughter.
Eileen Breen
July 19, 2012 at 12:24 pm
Hi Don and Mary: On the subject of Coffin Ships: There is a book by John Burrows entitled: Irish The Remarkable Saga Of A Nation And A City. The book is about coffin ships coming from Ireland To Glasgow. On http://WWW.Amazon.UK there is an excerpt of the book. In one chapter the people in Glasgow were watching many ships coming from Londonderry to Glagow. All they could see on the deck was pink. When they looked with a spie glass all they could see was hundreds of pink faces crammed onto the deck of the ship. The people were screaming. in another scene many people died when the ships captain not wanting to hear the screaming from the cargo hold of the ship covered the hold w/ a tarp and the people died of carbon monoxide poisoning. This book is not for the faint hearted, I cried for the first hundred pages.
Mary Cornell
July 19, 2012 at 7:09 am
For when you have time, Don.
Books on the Irish in Appalachia- The Haney book is a much more simplified book, but it does have census figures for the Scots-Irish in the late 1700’s.
Irish Pioneers in Kentucky- Michael I. O’Brien, 1916.
http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924028846074#page/n3/mode/2up
The Mountain People of Kentucky- Wm. H. Haney, 1906.
http://www.archive.org/stream/mountainpeopleof001065mbp#page/n5/mode/2up
Don MacFarlane
July 18, 2012 at 3:47 pm
More from Dominic Behan
The sea, oh the sea is the gradh geal mo croide
Long may it stay between England and me
It’s a sure guarantee that some hour we’ll be free
Oh! thank God we’re surrounded by water
The Scots have their whisky, the Welsh have their speech
And their poets are paid about ten pence a week
Provided no hard words on England they speak
Oh Lord! What a price for devotion.
Two foreign old monarchs in battle did join
Each wanting their head on the back of a coin
If the Irish had sense they’d drown both in the Boyne
And have Partition thrown into the Ocean.
Mary Cornell
July 18, 2012 at 6:20 am
Hi Don and Eileen-
I wish I knew what our ghost readers were reading! Since we don’t.
You were speaking earlier of the Irish migrations through the US and I came across this…it is a Masters thesis written by Kelly Tobin O’Donnell at USD in 1995,
“From Shamrocks to Serapes”
In it she discusses the complete integration of the Irish into the San Diego community beginning with the first Irishman in 1795, a year before the American Revolution, and continues through the 1800’s.
“Those Irish men and women who opted to settle the California frontier did not, however, leave a legacy of “irishness”…Instead they embraced the existing cultures and strove for the greater good of the community.”
I have only read half way through, but am wondering why these particular Irish “left their “Irishness” at the door” when those in the east held firmly to theirs.
http://www.patflannery.com/IrishHistory/FromShamocksToSerapes.htm
Eileen Breen
July 18, 2012 at 1:08 pm
Hi Don and Mary I found a part 3 of Irish in America and there is a video on UTUBE: The journey West. All these videos were produced by the History Channel.
Don MacFarlane
July 17, 2012 at 11:10 pm
Emigration from Ireland in the 1850s by County
http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Irish-emigration.html
Over the ten year period emigration slackened off considerably except for Counties Cork, Down and Antrim. Proportionately more people left from Counties Kilkenny and Wexford (Leinster Province); Cork, Limerick and Tipperary (Munster Province); Cavan and Donegal (Ulster Province); and Galway and Mayo (Connaught Province).
Not only that, but emigration dropped off sharply from 1852 onwards from the 1851 peak. The mystery is (but not for long) what was going on in 1851 and what brought about the abrupt change? Secondly, any Irish migration to the newer States (Florida and all States on a line of longitude west of Lake Michigan) were presumably and or the most part internal migration and not direct from Ireland.
Mary Cornell
July 17, 2012 at 8:51 pm
Hi guys-
I would like to take a different tack on the formation of the States. In a few paragraphs, a very brief history of the American States. I hope it gives a perspective on what we have been discussing.
The original thirteen colonies were the beginning of what became the United States. The colonies were begun by different religions that were seeking freedom from oppression and persecution in their own countries. There were the Pilgrims, Quakers, followers of Roger Williams, et al. Also in the New World, there were the Dutch and Swedish. Eventually, England took control of the New World. side note: It must have been very disheartening to the colonists to have travelled across an ocean to be rid of English persecution and then have it follow them. When the conditions became intolerable for the colonists, they decided, after much haggling that the only way to defeat England was to unite against it. Remember, at the beginning of the American Revolution, England was not fighting a united country. They were, in effect, fighting several different groups (colonies) and had they stayed as such, England may well have won the war. When the colonies united, there were too many fronts for the British to effectively fight.
America did not become a united country until 1789 when the US Constitution was adopted by the states. The states would keep their autonomy and make their own laws as long as they did not go against the principles of the Constitution. In return, the federal government would provide services and protection. It would also uphold the Constitution. Tensions would slowly grow as the cry for the abolition of slavery began to get louder. The economy of the South was dependant on slavery. They would be ruined were it abolished. The argument of the Confederate States was that they should be able to have laws within the state be free from government control. The government argued that they could interfere when those laws went against the Constitution. The Missouri Compromise did little to ease the building tension. The South had no hope of winning the war. The North was more industrialized with greater resources and population to fight the war. It also had a large population of slaves within the South that would provide a second battle line the South would have to fight. The newly arrived Irish would have seen the imposition of rules by the federal government as no different than the monarchy they just left in Ireland.
As for the formation of the other States, the vast land area would account for them. Also the founding fathers would have realized that the formation of States rather than countries would be a more secure situation in the long run.
As you say, Don, clear as mud. Eileen, it is not snarky when it is the truth. I have always perceived Johnson as a hateful little man. It show through in his portraits.
Don MacFarlane
July 17, 2012 at 8:07 am
Dr Samuel Johnson on America
http://www.samueljohnson.com/briefbio.html
As I understand the man, Dr Johnson never graduated, so where did the title come from? He was an ugly, unfortunate and unprepossessing character who had a bad case of Tourette’s Syndrome but he amassed a small fortune through causing offence. He had a certain turn of wit and so he acquired a fanclub in the US that followed his every utterances or ‘yelps’ (to borrow his own phrase). Dr Johnson must have relished this – so much for the jag,sometimes aimed at Americans, that they can suffer from irony deficiency! Johnson may very well have played on this and invented the device of taking an argument and developing it to a point that it is patemtly ridiculous.
“They ought to be thankful for anything we allow them short of hanging”
“No people can be great who have ceased to be virtuous”
“How is it we hear the loudest yelps for freedom from the drivers of negroes?”
“We have ruled for two hundred years large tracts of the American continent, based upon a claim that is valid only upon a consideration that no other power can do better”
“I am willing to love all mankind, except an American”
“We have always protected the Americans; we may therefore subject them to Government”
Don MacFarlane
July 17, 2012 at 1:21 pm
Hi Eileen
I know how you feel but it gives some insight into the English mentality of the time. Incidentally, two of his most fervent admirers were Irish – Edmund Burke and Oliver Goldsmith!
The Harvard Collection of Johnson Works
https://hcl.harvard.edu:8001/libraries/houghton/exhibits/johnson/
On a not altogether different note, and trying to educate myself, how did the different States come about and were they/are they radically difffent from each other. Are they sufficiently distinctive from each other that they could never be smaller federations, for example like Scotland, England and Wales. Taking names out of a hat, I am thinking Massachusetts (1789), Illinois (1818), Ohio (1803),Pennsylvania (1787) could be part of one; Arizona (1912), Texas (1845), New Mexico (1912) could be part of another; Kentucky (1792), Arkansas (1836), Tennessee (1796), North Carolina (1789) could be part of another etc.etc.
Don MacFarlane
July 17, 2012 at 6:19 pm
Click to access map_1800.pdf
According to the 2010 US Census (see Genealogy Page header), States that have drawn most Irish/Ulster people are:
North East (New York, Pennsylvannia, Massachusetts, New Jersey) – 8 million (15% approximate); Middle (Ohio, Illinois, Michigan) – 5 million (13% approximate); East/South East (North Carolina, Florida) – 3 million (12%).
No mention of the Appalachians which appear to be more of a tail-end or drift of people from neighbouring States? This appears not to have been due to inaccessibility as a later wave of Irish settled at the time of the Famine in States that were much more distant that emerged in the mid 1840s – California, Texas and Florida.
Mary Cornell
July 15, 2012 at 4:47 am
Mr. Henry’s statements fittingly apply also to Northern Ireland.
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who comes near that precious jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined.” – Patrick Henry
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government -lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.”- also Patrick Henry
Don MacFarlane
July 15, 2012 at 7:25 am
Patrick Henry is an intriguing individual (of Scots descent despite his name) and a force to be reckoned with. As one of the slaveholder class in Virginia (therefore someone of whom John Mitchel would definitely approve), he nonetheless was a fierce advocate of liberty and free speech (how does that work?). It set me thinking about whether you needed to be a slaveholder to be heard and I came across this database:
http://mapserver.lib.virginia.edu/php/newlong2.php
A quick scan comes up with these Slavecount statistics for the period 1790-1860, from the War of Independence to the Civil War, and a period when Irish and Scots were leaving for America in droves:
Georgia, up from 30k to 460k
Kentucky, up from 25k to 225k
North Carolina, up from 100k to 300k
Virginia, up from 290k to 490k
Don MacFarlane
July 14, 2012 at 9:35 am
What is the Orange Institution – From Northallerton LOL 265 Manifesto
” … A worldwide brotherhood composed of Protestants, resolved to defend the House of Windsor and to preserve the public peace. It will not admit to the brotherhood any persons whose intolerant spirit leads them to persecute or upbraid a man on account of his religious opinions”.
The Orange Association was formed in Exeter [in England] in 1688 in the presence of Prince William and the Bishop of Salisbury, concluding with the words ‘We shall defend the government, laws and liberties of England, Scotland and Ireland till they shall no more be in danger of falling into Popery and slavery'”. Later it transmogrified into the Orange Order in Armagh as a response to the activities of the Defenders and the United Irishmen.
Notably, there is little if any trace of Orangeism in Holland, the country of birth of King Billy.
Don MacFarlane
July 13, 2012 at 6:48 pm
It’s a rather poor quality of video, taken on a mobile phone,but it gives a flavour of the goings-on during the Marching Season.
My mother had a deep dislike of Orangemen and their parades from the time that she crossed a road in Glasgow they were marching on. She dodged between two Orange bands when she found a gap (something you are not supposed to do) and worse still she was wearing a green coat. Some of them pounced upon her and kicked her about like a football. Personally, I don’t quite get this freedom of speech thing either, no more than I can excuse people who indulge in road-rage behaviour. Something you would not do in a private exchange for fear of causing offence, why do it in public? When people cross those kinds of barrier against causing offence, you can guarantee there will be trouble.
Eileen Breen
July 13, 2012 at 9:53 pm
“One of the very best rules in conversation is, never to say a thing which any of the company can reasonably wish we had rather left unsaid” – Jonathan Swift
I think their is a huge difference between freedom of speech and manners. One would think by now that a reasonable person should know the difference. The freedom of speech should have a clause to treat others as you would like to be treated.
“It often happens that the real tragedies of life occur in such an intrinsic manner that they hurt us by their crude violence, their absolute incoherence, their absurd want of meaning, their entire lack of style” – Oscar Wilde
This situation must have been traumatic for your mother. I think people with a conscious wouldn’t dream of offending anyone but perhaps there are those who want to cause offense and do things that increase tensions in an already heated situation. Are they exerting their right to free speech or is there a hidden agenda? Would it be reasonable to place restrictions or lay down some ground rules that certain behavior will not be tolerated?
Eileen Breen
July 14, 2012 at 12:26 pm
“The basis of religion is love and that religion that expressed itself in faction fights must have hate at the bottom of it” – Alexander Irving
People say: “Of course, they will be beaten.” The statement is almost a query, and they continue, “but they are putting up a decent fight.” For being beaten does not matter greatly in Ireland, but not fighting does matter. – James Stephens, The Insurrection in Dublin, 1916
Don MacFarlane
July 8, 2012 at 10:19 pm
Most inspirational Irish figures for me (but almost completely unknown). William Orr (Presbyterian martyr and United Irishman) or Hans Sloan (physician and scientist)
Most inspirational Irish figure (alive). I should say John Hume but he was a politician; otherwise, any one of the dignitaries that lined up to meet the Queen in TCD when she visited Dublin. Collectively, they were the finest that Ireland has to offer.
For the future – the President is supposed to provide the inspiration but Michael D Higgins is just like a wee leprechaun so I will settle for an Irish American, Chuck Feeney. Contrast him with his side-kick, Robert Miller, to see the best (Chuck) in human nature. If he had been alive in 1845 there would have been no Irish Famine but then again no Chuck Feeney today.
Mary Cornell
July 7, 2012 at 7:41 am
Found this on the Irish in Appalachia and is a good example of what happens to a language when it is separated from its native country.
Billy Kennedy, author of several books on the Scots-Irish migration to the New World, estimates that quarter million Scots-Irish came to America from the early 1700’s through the Revolutionary War. A famine in Ireland around 1740 also caused an immigration push.
Upon landing in the New World, the Scots-Irish found the English colonial government here just as unpalatable as they had in their homeland, so they often pushed from Pennsylvania into new territories beyond British influence. The sparsely-settled Southern Appalachians served this purpose well, and there may have been another instinctive factor in the decision. Some geologic evidence suggests that Appalachia is part of an ancient mountain chain that runs through the northern United Kingdom.
“Scots-Irish” was also used as a term to help differentiate those from the Ulster province from Irish Catholics who came from other parts of Ireland. The Scots-Irish had a rather severe and stubborn reputation, and church and education were heavily entwined.
Their brand of Protestantism served as the foundation for the Baptist and Methodist faiths of today, though they brought a talent for making corn whiskey to go along with their distaste for government, which lives on in the unfortunate stereotype of the paranoid hillbilly.
Ireland also lent its lingual influence to the region, and the Irish word “seisiun” lives on in American English as “session,” a term for a musical gathering.
Other words that have Irish roots are “galore” (go leor in Irish, meaning “enough” or “plenty”), “shanty” (sean tigh, meaning “old house”), “slob” (slaba, meaning “mud”), “slew” (sluagh, meaning “host, army, or crowd”), “smithereens” (smidirini, meaning “small pieces”), and “whiskey” (uisce beatha, meaning “water of life”).
According to linguist Lorien Hightale, a lot of mountain vernacular comes from Gaelic and Celtic roots. Examples include the use of “what” in place of “that,” as in “He’s the man what went to church.”
Another is the use of “on” to demark the bestowing of emotions, as in “She was loving on that boy.”
For those of us who are sometimes grammatically incorrect, we can lay some “blame” on the Scots-Irish influence, as in the use of “Who with?” instead of the formal “With whom?”
Hightale said there is no word for “only” in Gaelic, so “There is not but one” or “There ain’t but one” are ways to get around saying “There is only one.”
Similarly, “I’m a-fixin’ to milk the cow” has its roots in “fix” as a Gaelic synonym for “do” or “make” and “a-going” is from the phrase “ag dul.”
Of course, music is the area most often recognized for providing a Celtic influence that continues to this day. Ballads and hymns from the church were popular because they could be sung without accompaniment.
The Irish are often associated with the harp, but that sophisticated and expensive instrument was often limited to the ruling classes that were allied with England. Penny whistles and bagpipes were native to Scotland and Ireland, but neither made a major impact on Appalachian music.
However, the fiddle does play a prominent role both historically and currently, as well as the lilting Appalachian style that has its foundation in the Irish and Scottish reels. In truth, Appalachian music is a blend of a number of influences, including the African-American banjo and the European guitar.
While you won’t find many leprechauns popping out of hollow tree stumps, if you listen closely, you’ll hear plenty of the sounds of old Ireland in these hills.
Don MacFarlane
July 7, 2012 at 8:47 am
Interesting and it appears substantially true but not entirely correct.
Emotions are given, offered, carried and accepted in Gaelic, almost as if they are commodities. Your example of love is an instance and, in Gaelic, instead of ‘loving’ which is a descriptor or an attribute of the person in English, that becomes ‘thoir gaol’ or ‘give love’. According to modern principles of interpersonal psychotherapy, perhaps the Gaels had it right after all? Rom Harre takes credit for the invention of ethogenics, and for separating out the agentic self from the reflexive self and the singular self, but it would appear from a cursory study of Gaelic that the Celts had this all worked out a full millennium before!
It isn’t the case that there is no Gaelic for ‘only’ but ‘a-mhain’ tends not to be used in everyday vernacular and it is true that the roundabout ‘aint but one’ is definitely preferred. Again, one could argue that is a mark of sophistication rather than primitiveness, as the device is emphasising exclusivity.
Those two examples you give are perhaps pointers towards the mindsets of backwood people, whether in Appalachia or Gaeldom, who have all the time in the world to reflect. They are not ignorant or have a dearth of language tools, it is just their way of going and thinking about things. Typically, if a Gael is on an errand he or she will ‘go all round the houses’ as they say – comment on the weather, the cow, anything, for half an hour – before coming to the point and stating their mission. Anything else would be considered rude.
On the matter of leprechauns, I met one once but that’s another story!
Don MacFarlane
July 6, 2012 at 7:53 am
Sean Quinn, whose interview clip I put up under the heading ‘Regret’, was a keyplayer in this Anglo Irish Bank calamity. I think the man is being pilloried as an example to all of the middle class upstarts (meaning half the country) or YUPPies (I was one of those once so I shouldn’t talk) who brought the country to its knees. I never took on a mortgage,however,that was more than 25% of my salary, not the 80-90% these latter-day punters took on.
Visitors to Dublin would have been shocked at the crazy prices that were being paid for years for very modest properties from German pension pots, brokered by AngloIrish. Where were the financial regulators and the poliicians who stood back and let this craziness continue till the bubble burst? One result of all this is that Sinn Fein, who have dirty hands of a more bloody kind, have now become the second-largest party in Ireland.
WB Yeats’ poem, September 1913, which provides the backcloth to the video, makes heavy references to the events of 1798 which I cover in my chapter, ‘Ceathrar air an Urlar’ in my book. What Lord Edward Fitzgerald, Thomas Emmet and Wolfe Tone have to do with the Anglo Irish fiasco is beyond me, but I guess that’s poetic license.
Don MacFarlane
July 6, 2012 at 5:08 pm
I think you’re right about keeping the videos where they are as the FTT page has bigger following, plus it keeps the videos in context.
Hits for Last Month
Entry Level Genealogy 541
FTT 396
Archives 255
Intermediate/Advanced Genealogy 88
Folkways 29
Media 14
Bookclub 8
My perennial complaint continues. It would be nice if more visitors would contribute rather than just visit but as they always say in Wales, “There you are…”
Eileen Breen
July 5, 2012 at 12:41 pm
Hi Don and Mary! U,S. President Obama stated that “the United States is no longer a christian country”. Since 911 the religion that is the fastest growing religion in the USA is Islam. The number of Mosques and new members of the Islamic religion has doubled. How will this affect the USA and our relationships with other countries. Will it affect our relationships with christian countries like Ireland? When I was in Dublin a man said “Ireland isn’t as religious at it once was”. The Catholic Church in the USA has been advocating for religious freedom free from political influences and prejudices. How will christian religions in Ireland accept a non christian religion in a country that is dominated by a christian religion? Will the RC and Protestant hierarchy ask for tolerance and acceptance? Will Ireland be influenced by a non christian religion in the wake of the child abuse scandal and will Irish residents look favorably towards this religion?
Eileen Breen
July 5, 2012 at 1:07 pm
FFT: There are 40-60,000 Muslims in Ireland and is also a popular religion in Ireland. On UTUBE there are a few videos on Islam and other non christian religions in Ireland. People in the video seem optomistic that these religions are getting along well with each other. Someone wrote in Ireland someone may say something about religion that someone may not like. In Ireland we expect you to say something about it. It seems the Irish people want to debate religion- a freedom they fought hard for. So perhaps Ireland is going to go through a religious and cultural change. It will be interesting to see how 2 countries who admire each other, who fought for religious freedom, freedom of speech, right to vote and participate in politics will accept a religion that is non christian. How will a non christian people affect politics of the USA and Ireland?
Don MacFarlane
July 3, 2012 at 11:05 pm
I think there was definitely something different about the US that drew Irish and Scots in much bigger numbers than alternative English-speaking destinations such as Canada, Australia or South Africa. Thinking back to my Dynamic Identity Grid, how do you think these different countries compare with regard to the Dynamics and Response Domains? The experience of the Acadians is an interesting case in point, they having settled in the maritime provinces of Canada, only to be driven out as an act of ethnic cleansing by Scots and Irish, then reincarnating themselves as Cajuns in the Delta States of the US.
Mary Cornell
July 5, 2012 at 7:18 am
Hi guys-
Sorry if my posts have been coming a little slow. I have been having problems with my virus scan wanting to re-scan every time I hit post. And when it does, it loses the post. It only does it on the FFT page. Haven’t quite figured out how to get it to stop doing it. So, Don if you have four or five of the same posts showing up, that is the reason.
Hi Eileen- Looked for your videos. What are they under? Or do I misunderstand where they are? Are they on YouTube or the Derry site? Hope you had a good Fourth!
Intriguing that you picked the Cajuns as an example. After they came to Louisiana, they assimilated into their culture those of the Creole and Haitians. They then chose to live in the bayou areas of Louisiana which effectively isolated them from others. They became clans or “clan-like.” There is intense loyalty within the families and intense distrust outside of the community. It closely resembles the Irish grifters, excluding the criminal aspects. The dialect is very distinctive. When I was in college, I had a friend whose father was Cajun. He had left the bayous when he was a teen, but the “cajun” was still very strong. After Katrina, several families temporarily relocated here, and it was very easy to pick out the Cajuns. If you remember the Cajun chef, Justin Wilson, who had an exaggerated accent, it is still very close to the actual accent. Sometimes you have to remind yourself that they are speaking English, even though you don’t understand what they are saying.
FFT- One of the other “clans” are said to be in isolated areas of the Appalachian Mountains. It is believed they are descended from very early Irish settlers.
Don MacFarlane
July 1, 2012 at 10:32 pm
I figure there are only about 80,000 fluent Gaelic speakers in Ireland, who have picked up the language through ordinary usage in their community, with it being a fully-working language, rather than something picked up at night-class.
It is not only RCs that have the language and Presbyterians were once quite fluent in it too, which is why some Church of Ireland people referred to them as Blackmouths. Some of that fluency was due to proselytising activity on the part of ministers in rural parts of Ireland poorly served by priests.
Mary Cornell
July 1, 2012 at 6:41 am
The difference between regret and guilt-
Right now, the state of Colorado is on fire, literally, there are wildfires all over the state. In Colorado Springs, there have been over 300+ homes destroyed in the Mountain Shadows sub-division. There were over 32,000 evacuated from their homes. Thankfully, they are beginning to get ahead of the fire.
There are homeowners who have lost their homes who probably regret building their million dollar homes in a mountain area without having 100 yards cleared around the house for a firebreak. The connotation of the word guilt does not fit here, regret seems more appropriate. If a spouse has told you for five years that the 100 yard clearance was needed, does that change it to guilt?
Philosophers have a tough job.
Don MacFarlane
July 1, 2012 at 7:32 am
REGRET
Sean Quinn was the richest man in Ireland with a fortune of £4billion but he is now bankrupt over a dodgy deal involving the Anglo Irish Bank. He has been described by the judge of an ongoing Tribunal as Public Enemy Number One because the taxpayer has had to pick up the tab for a deal that went sour. The public on the other hand have enormous sympathy for a fallen idol who once was the epitome of a ‘farmer’s boy made good’.
GUILT (or lack of it)
Cardinal Brady, Primate of Ireland, is standing in the dock of public scrutiny over his action, never volunteered by him, of being part of the ‘behind closed doors’ inquisition of a twelve year old boy sexually abused by Father Brendan Smyth. Under threat of damnation, the boy was made to swear secrecy on the Bible and Smyth went on to continue to be a sexual predator for the next twenty years. Brady continues to be Primate, he has not been required by the Pope to stand down, and he shook hands with the Queen last week.
Don MacFarlane
July 1, 2012 at 10:26 am
Cardinal Brady (protector of Father Brendan Smyth – inadvertent or otherwise) meets the Queen
This link is for UTV which can give rolling and inside-track updates on the stories and news in Northern Ireland.
Eileen Breen
July 1, 2012 at 12:00 am
Hi Don! Check out BBC History Of Ireland Age Of Invasions on UTUBE 1/5
The Biggest Invasion of All, this time non-human, the Potato Blight.
Eileen Breen
June 29, 2012 at 3:25 pm
“If they want to revive the Irish language, all they have to do is ban it” – Anonymous
I liked the video when someone said they didn’t have any regrets.
Don MacFarlane
June 29, 2012 at 8:55 am
I have now read Stephen Oppenheimer’s book, ‘Origins’, several times over. The main points for me are:
The last wave of Celts did not arrive in Ireland from Austria as was thought but from Iberia.
There are mesolithic ancestors all over the British Isles, including England (two-thirds) and Ireland (90%) and Scotland (80%).
The Celtic component of bloodlines is never more than about 10%.
The Celtic language, which is the most distinctive part of being Celtic, developed 1000 BC from a more primitive Celtiberian language.
Scottish Gaelic, a development from Irish, is about half as old as its parent language ( 500AD).
All of Ireland and Scotland spoke that language at an earlier point in their history.
Therefore almost all of their peoples have Celtic in them, albeit the lesser part, made up with other mixes – a bit like the paint you might buy from Wallmart .
So John Steinbeck, when thinking on his Derry Roots in the Derry Journal and on visiting his mother’s forebears in 1952 in Ballykelly, maybe said it best:
“Every Irish man – and that means anyone with one drop of Irish blood – sooner or later makes a pilgrimage to Ireland. I am half Irish, the rest of my blood watered down with German and Massachusetts English. But Irish blood doesn’t water down very well; the strain must be very strong”.
Don MacFarlane
June 30, 2012 at 8:02 am
Several things trouble me about Stephen Oppenheimer. He is a medical doctor by training and background so his academic background lacks the gravitas of people such as Barry Cunliffe and John Koch from whom much of Oppenheimers’s work derives, you could say plagiarised, or which he has used as a touchstone. He has stolen much of the thunder of these more publicity-shy researchers.
Whereas he has lifted Cunliffe’s work pretty much wholesale, Oppenheimer pretty much ignores Koch’s findings or any other work that doesn’t quite gel with his own theories about the Basques being ancestors of the Celts. In the process, he completely whitewashes all the much larger and earlier body of archaeological, as opposed to genetic work, that refers to the Hallstatt and la Tene origin of the Celts around the Danube. The significance of this is that these more ancient Celts were thought to be a very advanced culture for their time, second only to the Romans in significance, not just a load of goatfarmers and fishermen from the Pyrenees.
In the course of building his argument, Oppenheimer completely blanks out the hidden question that his own hypothesis implies. If the Celts took refuge in the Basque country in the Ice Age, how did they get there (certainly not by boat!) and where did they come from? He makes play on, and indeed bases his whole argument on, the accessibility of British shores by boat from the Bay of Biscay. And that’s it? He must never have heard of two-way traffic if he wants to use that argument. If the Saxons were displacing Celts Westward, what’s to say they didn’t go southward as well?
I am sure that Oppenheimer has no dubious agenda, and he carries on more like a genial buffoon, but his own surname would probably place him as German by origin (something that he and others have remarked upon). Nothing wrong with that, of course, but in his ‘Origins’ book he plays up the significance of the Frisians and Saxons in the making of Britain, while playing down that of the Celts. As an aside, he refers to the disproportionate early and historical importance of Schleswig-Holstein (where the present British Royal Family came from) in shaping Britain. You could say then that the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas (aka Windsors) have simply reclaimed their inheritance.
So it goes on, but for the time being I will humour Oppenheimer over what otherwise might turn out to be a harmless bedside story. It also suits me to go along with it. As well as having an aversion to the trainspotting activity of Y-DNA haplotyping that any serious follower or challenger of Oppenheimer would have to get caught up in, I can shrug off any pretentious people who object to the title of my book (will it.ever get published!) – New Celts from Old Horizons. If the experts can’t agree, that’s fine by me.
Don MacFarlane
June 30, 2012 at 11:29 pm
R1b is the most frequent y-DNA haplogroup found in Western Europe. It is only when it is broken down further into for example Rib1a2a1a1b that one can narrow down the location to a place such as Western Ireland.
Various myths have been around as far as the precise identity of the Irish people before the Celts arrived, such as Milesian and Firbolg but no one really knows. Whoever they were, they left no trace except for their genes which constitute 90% of the genetic makeup of most people in the British Isles, including Irish. The same goes with regards what language did they speak – no one knows.
Don MacFarlane
June 30, 2012 at 8:40 am
Don MacFarlane
June 27, 2012 at 8:20 am
” Men are the carriers of knowledge; women are the carriers of wisdom”
Dr Dipu Moni, Foreign Minister of Bangladesh (herself a woman), and in reply to Professor Richard Dawkins, on the role of women and religion in society.
Curiously, Dr Moni is a public health doctor but she is mixing up religion, politics and medicine to bolster her arguments (a strange mix). Compare her statement with that of Dr Stickgold, the eminent neurophysiologist;
” The frontal cortex gives us smart memories; the hippocampus gives us wise memories”!
Are women’s brains different to men’s?
Don MacFarlane
June 26, 2012 at 6:06 pm
No, I was simply having a go at UVF who pretended or claimed to be Loyalist. At the time of their country’s greatest need, instead of joining up, the UVF were preparing to mount an insurrection against the British initiative to bring about a settled Ireland. Sceptics think that the British hand was forced by the ongoing First World War as a failure to reach a settlement with the Irish would have encouraged dissident Irish republicans to collaborate with the Germans. Loyalists and the UVF in particular then took advantage of the situation to force a breakaway Ulster: all very cynical and not a bit patriotic? Compare that with the brave Irish soldiers who volunteered their lives in their fight against fascism,even though their country was neutral, but for almost a hundred years were treated as a guilty secret. None of the UVF were held to book for this treachery but Erskine Childers was executed for smuggling in a few rifles on his yacht. The world is ill-divided, as they say in Ireland.
Don MacFarlane
June 23, 2012 at 5:46 pm
There has been a wall of silence with regard to the Royal Family’s undoubted grief over Mountbatten’s death. Nonetheless, discreet opportunities are taken to commemorate his life, as in the huge montage that was on display at the Queen’s recent Jubilee, seen here from Westminster Bridge. He is fourth along (next to the Queen) and is dressed in his naval regalia. I was never a Royalist (quite the opposite) but I always admired the man and like most right-thinking people I was appalled at the atrocity. The Queen is a better person than me that she can shake McGuinness’s hand.
Don MacFarlane
June 23, 2012 at 8:10 pm
More on Mountbatten and how he was regarded in Sligo
http://www.sligoheritage.com/archmbatten.htm
Quote from Mountbatten,” why shoudn’t they fly their tricolour flag? It’s our property,yes, but it’s their country!”
Interesting Snippet:
Mountbatten’s wife,Edwina,who incidentally was Jewish, was the mistress of Nehru, founder of modern India! No big surprise there, Mountbatten called Edwina’s breasts Mutt and Jeff, the nickname given to British military campaign medals!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1216186/The-shocking-love-triangle-Lord-Mountbatten-wife-founder-modern-India.html
Don MacFarlane
June 21, 2012 at 6:10 am
Hi Eileen
I am not familiar with the second procedure that Mary has described here so I have no idea if the photos come up as a Gallery, much as in Facebook, or what. I envisaged giving the photos pride of place in the Tourism page so this might be a time for you to enter the site, not just visit, using the username and password which I have. The rest is straightforward and I can explain it later once you decide what you want to do. If there are a lot of photos, that woud be easier than sending them to me by email but that is another option and I can fix it.
Mary Cornell
June 21, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Hi Eileen and Don-
The youtube site is best if you are trying to upload a video, Eileen, but for photos the Picasaweb,com site would be a better idea, they are done in a galllery form. The problem comes with sending it to the Derry site, Don. She could send you the link and visitors to the site could link to the photos. If Eileen leaves the site open, you can pull the photos off. I don’t know what she needs to do if you want the gallery format to appear on the tourism section. In that case, I think that she might have to send the photos to you for you to put them on as a gallery.
Mary Cornell
June 22, 2012 at 6:47 am
I researched the youtube idea and there is a way to create an audioslide show using a free Windows app. I don’t think you have to send it to youtube when using it. It does require a lot of synching sound to photos. The link will take you to the youtube instructions, there you will find the Windows app and I believe there is also an Apple app.
http://support.google.com/youtube/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1696878
Having said this, since you want this to be a centerpiece for the tourism page, Don, whatever you are most familiar with would probably be the best way to go.
Mary Cornell
June 19, 2012 at 4:42 am
Hi Eileen
Sounds like you had a wonderful time. Can’t wait for the photos. Your very thoughtful remarks reminded me of something I had found earlier. Peace can only be accomplished if everyone is part of the process….if everyone remembers that we are all part of humanity. And these are not my words. They are the words of a much wiser person than I.
Mary Cornell
June 12, 2012 at 4:25 am
More on de Valera- This video has a lot of background info. About 3/4 of the way through the video, de Valera is pseaking of a united Ireland and what I hear is “We are NOT British, we are IRISH.” Something that surely stuck in Churchill’s craw.
The second video is of the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBzBZ-bXrvI&feature=related
Mary Cornell
June 10, 2012 at 4:43 am
Just now read this in today’s Irish Times-
Perhaps the most intriguing document in the exhibition is the secret telegram that Churchill, as Britain’s wartime prime minister, sent to Taoiseach Éamon de Valera after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour. “Now is your chance,” it says. “Now or never. ‘A nation once again’. Am very ready to meet you at any time.”
For Leslie and Kiely, the telegram is “the smoking gun” that proves the long-held belief that Churchill offered de Valera the North if Ireland would renounce neutrality. For them, ‘A nation once again’ refers to the 1840s song that became a rallying cry for Irish nationalists.
Packwood reads the telegram differently: “Churchill could be harking back to when we were one kingdom. Perhaps he was deliberately ambiguous. This is exactly the sort of debate we hope these documents will spark.”
What would de Valera have thought of this telegram? I think he probably would have wished the former was true, but thought the latter was more likely.
Mary Cornell
June 10, 2012 at 4:25 am
I do not know much about de Valera. Only what I have just read from the County Clare biography (which is slanted, most definitely, in his favor), but it seems that he stood by his principles, whether they were thought of favorably or not. I was impressed by the fact that he would not sign the loyalty oath for many years, and then only did so in order to have it removed once he was seated in government.
As for Ireland’s neutrality, it was not because he favored Germany, but because of his intense dislike and distrust of England. England to Irleand- “We know we thought of you as sub-human, nearly starved you to death, and took away all of your rights, but could you please help us?” I do believe that a man of his moral conscience may have accepted if the United States found it necessary to ask for Ireland’s assistance. But he would not do it for Churchill.
Another view–If the Welsh were to come to you (Scotland) and ask for help, what would your response be?
Don MacFarlane
June 10, 2012 at 9:45 am
On Erskine Childers
Winston Churchill ” No man has done more harm or genuine malice or endeavoured to bring a greater curse upon the common people of Ireland than this strange being, actuated by a deadly and malignant hatred against the land of his birth”.
Eamon de Valera ” He died the Prince he was. Of all the men I ever met, I would say he was the noblest”.
Don MacFarlane
June 10, 2012 at 9:47 am
On the question of Ireland’s neutrality, whose waters were in fact violated by Germany during World War II (my Dad was sunk by torpedoes twice), had it been violated by Germany during World War I would de Valera (an American national,never a British citizen but later to be an Irish citizen) have appealed to Woodrow Wilson or Churchill for help.
It’s interesting to note that as many Irishmen, whether North or South, as British (proportionately speaking) voluntarily lost their lives during the World War despite the supposed neutrality. Despite that, Britain was greedy for more Irish blood and it was the threat of conscription that turned the tide in the fight for Irish independence. Ironically and with the usual double-think, when the Queen visited Ireland last year she had to make a show of ‘honouring’ the IRA dead to be able to honour the Irish soldiers who fought in the War.
Don MacFarlane
June 25, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Sixty thousand rifles were smuggled into Ulster by the UVF in the First World War.
Sixty thousand Irishmen from the South lost their lives fighting in that war for Britain despite the neutrality of the South.
Who’s the Loyalist now??
Eileen Breen
June 9, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Hi Don! Emon de Valera seems like an interesting guy. How did a half Cuban and half Irish American become president of Ireland? Would this be allowed today in Ireland? I realize he was naturalized as an Irish citizen but it just seems odd to me. From what I read his naturalization is also in question. In America our president must be born in USA. This is why Donald Trump is making such a big deal about President Obama’s birth certificate. de Valera is criticized for his stance on reproductive rights, religion, a woman’s role outside the home as well as many other issues. He returned to USA in 1940’s after serving Ireland for many years then returning to Ireland. He was the oldest politician who was in office at the age of 90 years.
“Could he not find in his heart the generosity to acknowledge that there is a small nation that stood alone not for one year or two, but for several hundred years against aggression; that endured spoliations, famines, massacres in endless succession; that was clubbed many times into insensibility, but that each time on returning to consciousness took up the fight anew;a small nation that could never be got to accept defeat and has never surrendered her soul?” – Eamon De Valera, radio broadcast, in response to criticism by Winston Churchill of Ireland’s neutrality in World War II, May 8, 1945
Eileen Breen
June 9, 2012 at 12:48 pm
“Nothing is politically right which is morally wrong” – Daniel O’Connell, Letter to the Earl of Shrewsbury
“We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another”. – Jonathan Swift, Thoughts On Various Subjects, 1711
Mary Cornell
June 9, 2012 at 6:35 am
More fire for the DNA fire-
Stephen Oppenheimer articles- http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestry/
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/mythsofbritishancestryrevisited/
And if that is not enough–They have traced the mitochondrial DNA of the polar bear to a species of brown bear in Ireland.
Don MacFarlane
June 9, 2012 at 7:32 am
One thing I take out of the article is that it seems to be about mainland or Q-Celts (Welsh and Cornish) rather than Scots or Irish (P-Celts) so of lesser interest to me. The article seems a bit strange in that these interlocutors are firing questions at Oppenheimer without first having read his book properly – very frustrating for him but he kept his cool well.
The same thing cannot be said of Scotland or Ireland, that there is no trace of original Celtic names,as the place is littered with them. Also it seems strange that there is no trace of Welsh or Cornish in England placenames as it is the same land-mass. You would think that at the borders at least there would be some trace. It all doesn’t quite add up for me.
I have never really ‘got’ or understood the Welsh. They never ventured into England according to this article yet they had a major part in winning most of England’s battles for them. They were the best longbow archers in the British Isles and subjugated Ireland under Strongbow long before Cromwell. Why did they never turn on the English rather than always being against their Celtic cousins? I have to confess a primitive animosity that I feel rising within me against everything Welsh for those reasons. I have lived and worked in Wales and I find them nice enough people it is just their Welshness that sticks in my throat. As for their language, to me it is just spaghetti hoops.
As for the brown bear, it would appear that it wasn’t just snakes that Saint Patrick drove out of Ireland. Deer are about all that is left and not many of them either.
Eileen Breen
June 8, 2012 at 10:59 pm
“The two most important days are the one you are born and the day you discover why you were born”
Eileen Breen
June 8, 2012 at 12:25 pm
Hi Don! I had never heard of this expression.I’ll have to remember to tell this to my physician the next time he asks me to loose weight! I suppose it’s how we remember our ancestors. Perhaps the people that take the magic mushrooms, have seances, prayer services, sayings like the one you discussed, wakes or other traditions do this to keep their loved ones in their collective memory. I think I would freak out if my relatives came back! I don’t even like going to wakes.
“Let us dare to forget the terrible death and suffering that occurred between 1845 and 1850. in fact we should indelibly fix it in our personal and collective memory, for we are our ancestors”. – Jane Wilde, Irish poet and mother of Oscar Wilde
“Those who governed in London at the time failed their people through standing by while a crop failure turned into a massive human tragedy. We must not forget such a dreadful event. It is also right that we should pay tribute to the ways in which the Irish people have triumphed in the face of this catastrophe”. – Tony Blair, official statement read at the Famine commemoration June 1, 1997
Don MacFarlane
June 7, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Very appropriate for Food for Thought Page?
Eat for your Ancestors
Flyer for Workshop on Ancestral Fieldwork 9/10 June 2012
(not a wind-up)
At Saintfield, County Down.
with Juanita Puddifoot
‘Most non-Western cultures have rituals to help the safe passage of departing spirits to the other side to ensure they do not hang around the living, draining energy and invisibly influencing us. The Celtic Wake was also designed for this purpose. In the absence of such practises unhappy ancestors are calling to us waiting to be heard. Some ancestors can still be:
Yearning for a lost lover
Feeling outcast and shunned
Delirious and confused, unaware that they are dead
Weak with hunger and searching for food
Do you feel always hungry and driven to eat? How can you be satisfied if you are eating for ancestors who died from starvation?’
To book your place please contact http://www.energygateways.com
Beats DNA-typing, just talk to your ancestor instead?
Eileen Breen
June 7, 2012 at 10:40 pm
Hi Don! In nursing when a person passes often nursing staff will open a window so the person’s soul will pass to the other side peacefully. I’m not sure about the other things you speak about but perhaps those things give the living some comfort that their loved ones go peacefully.
Eileen Breen
June 7, 2012 at 10:51 pm
“The old – like children – talk to themselves, for they have reached that hopeless wisdom of experience which knows that though one were to cry it in the streets to multitudes, or whisper it in the kiss to one’s beloved, the only ears that can ever hear one’s secrets are one’s own!” – Eugene O’Neill, Lazarus Laughed, 1925
Eileen Breen
June 7, 2012 at 11:21 pm
Hi Don and Mary! Did you ever read the story of the wife of the Winchester fortune? She was convinced that the Winchester rifle was responsible for killing thousands of American Indians. She hired a psychic that told her to keep building her home to keep the spirits of the American Indians who were killed by the use of the Winchester rifle in battle. She had carpenters build multitudes of doors and stairways leading to nowhere. The building went on day and night for 20 plus years. Her soul never rested while she was alive. I’m not sure about the American Indians who died as a result of her husband’s rifles. This would be a perfect place for the workshop to go.
Don MacFarlane
June 6, 2012 at 8:32 pm
My understanding of this matter is that ‘nothing is left out’ as Mary put it by using mitchondrial DNA, quite the opposite.
To differentiate between people any DNA test depends upon the detection of subtle differences between subjects. This in turn depends upon mutation or ‘failure’ to replicate the DNA pattern handed down. Y-DNA is more susceptible to these random changes but they only happen once in every few hundred years. It is this relative frequency of change that makes the Y-DNA test of use to genealogists (who are interested in generations) and archaeologists. Women do not inherit the Y-chromosome (which of course thankfully is why they are female) so cannot have the Y-DNA test done.
The crux of the matter about the mitochondrial DNA and the reason why it is of limited use to genealogists is that it reproduces almost perfectly and is much more resistant to mutation (which happens every few thousand years, not every few hundred years as in the Y-DNA). In other words, mitochondrial DNA is super-DNA and hence paradoxically of limited use.
Clear as mud?
Mary Cornell
June 6, 2012 at 11:48 pm
I am still lacking understanding. If mitochondrial DNA reproduces perfectly, then wouldn’t it be easier to trace back ancestry and trace back further than if the y-DNA is used?. At least for genealogists. I understand that archaeologists would be more interested in the mutations that occur during certain generations or certain eras, but does genealogy need the Y-DNA.
Nevermind, I answered my own question in my mind. It would be important for genealogists to be able to mark where certain changes occurred in a family line, ex: the Hapsburgs. But..it does bring me to another question, if the mitochondrail DNA remains unchanged, then are all mutations on the DNA strand Y-caused?
Don MacFarlane
June 7, 2012 at 6:07 am
The Y-DNA is just as good as the mitochondrial DNA in tracing back further. That is because the first part of it remains unchanged eg. the R1b part of the haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1a4. That R1b part however only tells you the person’s origins from the mists of time were from Western Europe, little else. It’s the rest of the string that narrows things down.
The question for me is why there is still a debate about whether Celts in Ireland were hosts or invaders?
Eileen Breen
June 7, 2012 at 12:51 pm
“An Irishman resorting to arms to achieve the independence of his country is only doing what an Englishman would do if it were their misfortune to be invaded and conquered by the Germans in the course of war”. George Bernard Shaw 1916.
“Where all your rights become an accumulated wrong; where men must beg with bated breath for leave to subsist in their own land, to think their own thoughts, to sing their own songs, to garner the fruits of their own labours…then surely it is a braver, a saner and truer thing to be a rebel in act and deed against such circumstances as these than tamely to accept it as the natural lot of men”. -Robert Casement, statement at the end of his trial, the Old Bailey, London, July 29, 1916
Mary Cornell
June 7, 2012 at 5:01 pm
Last night, Through the Wormhole with Morgan Freeman was on the Discovery Channel where they attempted to explain DNA changes. It was dscussing the same things we have been. The show also pointed out that there are certain changes that did not occur because of the development of the human brain and its solving of certain problems. For instance, those who lived in cold climates did not have changes in their DNA because they used fire and clothed themselves for the weather. In other species, a DNA change would have occurred in response to the cold.
There was also a very controversial professor who maintains that IQ is DNA based. Her research shows that white races are higher than Asian and Asian are higher than black. I have to agree with the dissenters who say that her research is based on skewd IQ testing which does not take into account other factors such as nutrition, access to education, and other societal differences between different DNA groups.
And as you say, Don, it is still clear as mud.
Don MacFarlane
June 6, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Keeping it in the Family
Is uncle-niece sex any worse than first-cousin sex?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1170143/How-keeping-family-spelled-end-line-inbred-royal-dynasty.html
Mary Cornell
June 6, 2012 at 8:24 pm
Genetically speaking, they are both probably bad, especially if the first cousins have come down through the same type relationships. JUdging from the portraits of Charles and his father, they were within one generation of “Deliverance.” Charles has the pronounced forehead that seems to come with in- breeding and what I call the flattening or blurring of the facial features from the lack of diversity in the genes. Is there a loss of intellectual function with in-breeding? A loss of emotional feeling? There is a bland rather than sad feeling to the portraits.
Where I live, there is a Mormon farming community who, until lately, started to exhibit signs of a diminishing gene pool which I noticed with the prominent forehead and blurred facial features. Because of their tenets of only marrying within their church, the marriages took place between 5-6 families. So at some point everyone was related to everyone. Luckily, with the last couple of generations leaving for college etc., the gene pool is expanding outside of the general community.
The Hapsburgs, by trying to keep it in the family, began their own demise. Nature itself tries to stop the in-breeding through infertility, sterility and death. If the addage that only the strong survive is true, then diversity in the gene pool is necessary for survival.
Mary Cornell
June 6, 2012 at 3:09 am
“Ireland, thou friend of my country in my country’s most friendless days, much injured, much enduring land, accept this poor tribute from one who esteems thy worth, and mourns thy desolation.”
– George Washington, speaking of Ireland’s support for America during the revolution.
Don MacFarlane
June 6, 2012 at 9:01 am
George Washington Mural in Derry
It seems George Washington’s sentiments are still very much alive and have not gone unnoticed with the Loyalist community. These Loyalists have got the wrong end of the
stick as usual and have overlooked or conveniently forgotten that Washington drove the Brits out!
Also note that it was felt necessary to correct Washington where he used the description Scotch-Irish and replaced it with Ulster-Scots. The first of these continues to be used in America but is never used in Ireland. As far as the British mainland goes, most people there would be blissfully unaware of any Scottish connection with Ireland and would not use either term, everybody is Irish to them.
As far as the term Ulster goes, that appears to be a concoction of a word stemming from Uladh (Irish for Ulster) and Ster (Old Norse meaning ‘province’)but, as they say in Glasgow for anything that should be taken with a pinch of salt, “Tell that to your granny!”
Mary Cornell
June 5, 2012 at 9:58 pm
“Monarchy degenerates into tyranny, aristocracy into oligarchy, and democracy into savage violence and chaos.”
Polybius- Greek statesman and historian, 200 BC-118 BC
Don MacFarlane
June 5, 2012 at 4:30 pm
Trivia on Lesser Monarchs
Zahir Shah was Pashtun, which is the majority population of Afghanistan. As such, he was Indo-Aryan (not Aryan as the Nazis ‘knew’ the term), the race from which Celts are thought to have come. Their women are handsome and their men are formidable warriors. Shah had the reputation of being malleable but perhaps he knew his people were too hot to handle?
King al-Khalifa (Bahrain)
King Khalifa is listed as No.3 in the list of eight of ‘America’s Unsavoury Allies’. Khalifa has used up his own quota of four wives and he favoured Prince Charles by being the only foreign head of state to attend Charles’ wedding to Camilla Parker- Bowles. Bahrain is currently the subject of high controversy, due to its record of nepotism (you have to be a Khalifa to be on the cabinet) and alleged deaths by torture. Khalifa has recently been praised by Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama for his handling of uprisings but Bahrain stands to be the next country after Syria to fall with the Arab Spring.
More to follow.
Don MacFarlane
June 5, 2012 at 7:47 pm
More Trivia on Lesser Monarchs
Grand Duke Henri (Luxembourg)
Luxembourg is the richest country in the world despite its small size and its citizens’ take-home pay is on average twice as much as in the USA. Its’ floodgates have understandably opened to economic migrants from elsewhere in the EEC. The Grand Duke is skating on thin ice and he is about to be disenfranchised from having a veto over new laws brought in by parliament – he is a strong opponent of euthanasia which is about to be made legal.
Luxembourg has been an appendage of Belgium for long periods, whenever it was not being occupied by Dutch or Prussians. It was reinstated as an independent country by Viscount Castlereagh at the Congress of Vienna after the defeat of Napoleon.
Prince d’Orleans of France
The Henris (father and son) have been relative nonentities for most of the twentieth century as they were banished from living in France. That has been since reversed and the family are better known for always being at loggerheads with each other.
Don MacFarlane
June 5, 2012 at 10:42 am
Yes, it is surprisingly thought-provoking.
In the spirit of the ‘Food for Thought’ page being for random thoughts, here are some of mine for starters:
Hypothesis:
The Irish didn’t do too well for monarchs. In the post-High King period, all they had were major chieftains who scarpered off to the continent in the country’s hour of greatest need in the Flight of the Earls and were never heard of again. Likewise they wanted a Jacobite King and got James II, nicknamed ever since as ‘Seamus a Chac’ (James the Shite) for scarpering off to France and leaving his followers to pick up the pieces. Orangemen have been gloating about that ever since.
Hypothesis:
A descendant of the Earls of Clare once said of the Irish “nobody ever conquered them, they only ever married them!” But these in-laws were amateurs at that particular game compared to the Saxe-Coburgs of England who literally ‘stole the crown jewels’!
Don MacFarlane
June 5, 2012 at 8:10 am
Hi Eileen
I am impressed, particularly at the speed with which you identified King Albert of Belgium. The story of the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas is intriguing. How a relatively minor branch of the German aristocracy from Schleswig-Holstein – a part of Germany which was as much Danish as German and constantly changing hands over the centuries – came to be chosen to produce the monarchs of England, Portugal, Greece and Belgium is a mystery to me.
I have dumped some of the names off the poll as suggested but I have kept two in for now as there is still an argument to be made for and against them? The remaining names that have not found their names on to the list yet are still contenders.
The game I feel is worth the candle for two reasons – USA has been the melting pot for all the cultures represented by these monarchs and their individual stories can be very poignant. I met a refugee from Bhutan not long ago and his story was inspirational to me, for all that he was only sixteen. Secondly, you wonder which of these monarchs would have impressed the likes of the Young Irelanders, and others since, to desist from their bother and strife that has left Ireland such a mess for the last two hundred years. Certainly not Queen Elizabeth according to the IRA it would seem?
Anyway, the poll is still a work in progress subject to the debate.
Eileen Breen
June 5, 2012 at 11:40 am
Hi Don! Like the IRA I didn’t want to pick Queen Elizabeth II because of her family history in Ireland. But if you look at your types of identity she is a very effective leader. This is a similar problem w/ the other leaders we discussed. They ranked high in the grid as a leader but I didn’t like them as a person.
Back in the day all the monarchs seemed to marry each other, even if they were cousins to keep it all in the family. That’s how they got the term “blue bloods” because they were all hemophiliacs from inbreeding.
When I looked up King Albert there was a picture of him in a similar outfit. The hairdo was different!
I’m glad America rejected the monarchy! I believe in separation of church and state. That has caused nothing but problems for Ireland and Britain. I’m not sure why Americans are so fascinated w/ royalty. Why are we not revolting like they did w/ the french revolution. The monarchs have so much wealth and show it off. I’m sure they give some money to charities but not enough. I think people liked Princess Diana b/c she did try to help those in need.
Don MacFarlane
June 4, 2012 at 4:53 pm
They can be salami-sliced i.e. categorised in many different ways. Some such ways would be – who are despots, who are puppets, who are tyrants, who are pretenders, who are patriarchs, who are deposed, who are inspirational, who are fundamental, who are indispensable etc?
America rejected the monarchy, unlike their neighbours in Canada, was that a good move? Back to the quiz and first prize to whoever can identify – this monarch, what his connection was to the British monarchy, and later to Franklin D Roosevelt.
Eileen Breen
June 3, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Hi! Check
“Top Of The Morning To You”.
http://www.irishtrivia.com/
It’s a quick quiz on Irish trivia. I need to brush up on a few things! I got an 84%!
How about the ancient Celts the Druids. I read they would put a bunch of innocent people in a wicker cage and offer them up as a human sacrifice when they need to pray for someone who was injured in battle or sick. Thank goodness those days are over!
Eileen Breen
June 3, 2012 at 8:59 pm
Hi! Check out: facebook humans of Dublin. It’s an interesting look at people watching!
http://www.facebook.com/HumansOfDublin/timeline
Don MacFarlane
June 2, 2012 at 8:37 am
Is there such a thing as Celt
Celt is just a convenient label picked up again for common usage and applied to people now known as Insular or Atlantic Celts. The archaeological fraternity continue to use the term when digging for remains from long-extinct Celtic tribes in central Europe, some of whom are thought perhaps to have migrated to Gaelic Scotland and Ireland.
The term certainly trips off the tongue much easier than referring to Atlantic Celts by their common ancestry, which for most of those of native (Gaelic) descent is haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b4b. On the eastern seaboard of Ireland there is another ‘tribe’ with a different haplogroup, R1b1a2a1a1b4f, which reflects their non-native ancestry, and in central Ireland there is yet another ‘tribe’ with a different haplogroup, R1b1a2a1a1b4g. No surprise then that there are two other haplogroups in Ireland as it is common knowledge that Ireland has been ‘colonised’ for centuries.
Much more detail on all of this can be found at:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml
As to how this all relates to nationhood is a whole different story. Suffice to say for now that the rebel song, ‘A Nation Once Again’, was written by the Young Irelander, Thomas Osborne Davis, who judging by his name was of mixed Anglo-Welsh ancestry. Likewise with the other Young Irelanders: Rowan Hamilton, Corbett, Fitzgerald, Jackson, Hope, McCracken, Neilson, Russell, Sheares. None of these names are native Irish but who could deny them their Irishness? By any reckoning, they were more Irish than the Irish!
Eileen Breen
June 2, 2012 at 12:20 pm
Hi Don! OY VEY! Your a morning person aren’t you? I read somewhere 60% of the Irish men in New York City are descendants of King Niall. He was a real life Don Juan. I want to do the DNA test but sadly my brother won’t give up his DNA! I think it’s interesting how and why people migrate and what circumstances may have brought them to that decision.
I agree with you that the Young Irelanders adopted Ireland with their heart and mind unlike the Scottish clan than emigrated to Nova Scotia under harsh circumstances and could not assimilate or adapt to their new homeland. This was exhibited by keeping to themselves, kept their own language, didn’t interact w/ others in the community and being suspicious of outsiders. I think you can retain your culture of your homeland but accept your new country as your own by participating in the folklore, customs, music, language and government. In the US immigrants came prior to WWI and then had to send their sons overseas to fight their homeland. This must have been a difficult time for immigrants.
Don MacFarlane
June 2, 2012 at 5:02 pm
Competition for King Niall
Forget Niall of the Nine Hostages, some of the most prolific people in Ireland were the Breens! They pop up everywhere and mainly in three locations – Munster (Cork/Kerry/Limerick); Leinster (Kilkenny/Wexford); Ulster border counties (Tyrone/Fermanagh/Monaghan). As these correspond to the three haplogroups in Ireland (unless there was mass internal migration, these Breens are all different, despite the shared name), your brother is going to have his DNA to rule out Anglosaxon or Norman admix (only half- joking!). Part of the problem is that various non-Breens took on the Breen name because it sounded similar eg O’Braoin (native Irish), Byrne (Irish), Brun (Norman), Browne (Saxon). In other words, perhaps not so prolific after all, just that other people (mainly Leinster and Uster) liked the name!
Eileen Breen
June 3, 2012 at 12:03 am
Hi Don! I was looking at the site you posted this AM. The author of a blog tone of the differences between Americans and Europeans is that Americans see patriotism as important whereas Europeans don’t. I don’t think the author looked at Ireland when he said that. Is that true today?
The article also states in America we don’t like people to criticize our government but that Europeans are more than happy to hear people criticize their leaders. I think Americans like to hear about opposing view points based on a multitude of political talk shows, editorials etc.. Do people in Ireland, Scotland etc.. feel comfortable criticizing or critiquing their government?
Did you see the tab on linguistics? There’s a “quiz” you can take to see what language suits you based on your personality!
http://www.youthink.com/quiz.cfm?action=go_detail&sub_action=take&obj_id=22959
Don MacFarlane
June 5, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Yes, it’s all topsy-turvy. The Catholic church frowned upon second and third cousins marrying (see Archbishop Troy) but Royalty merrily married first cousins without a second glance. So it seems in high circles in Western cultures that being high-bred means close-bred. Actually, royal marriages over the centuries have been little different to so-called more backward cultures where arranged marriages to first cousins were the norm (it is reckoned up to 50% were so).
Seems to me the system in the United States is much better owing to its sheer size and mixed cultures. Its sheer size does away with the need for artificial alliances of monarchies to keep the peace – nobody is going to bully you anyway – and past grievances (retold or remembered) of fellow citizens whose ancestors may have been enemies in their erstwhile countries of origin are long buried or forgotten. Right now, it looks though that the United States of Europe (the EEC)will fail to make a transition or success of a similar model and that the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain)- note that the Saxe Coburgs had a hand in three of those, not counting Germany where they came from – will bring the whole house of cards down.
Don MacFarlane
June 6, 2012 at 6:37 am
Eileen Breen
June 3, 2012 at 11:15 pm
Hi Don! I was reading the article you put up about R1b replacing most of older lineages in western Europe. The author states the following factors that affected this was polygamy, status of power, gender imbalance, aggressive warfare and genetic predisposition to conceive boys. The article looked at people from 3000 -9000 BC. Did anyone look at later periods of history from 1000 AD-current time to see if famine, woman having multiple births, decline of the clan system in Ireland and Scotland and migrations of people from Ireland and Scotland to all points near and far played a part in R1b replacing older lineages in Europe?
When I saw a few ancestry programs on TV I found it interesting they could still pinpoint an area that someones ancestor came from. In the case of Ireland w/ R1b being so dominant in many places around the world is it possible to pinpoint an exact place someones ancestor came from or is it a more widespread guess?
Don MacFarlane
June 4, 2012 at 8:04 am
I haven’t looked into this in any depth but as I understand it the Y-DNA haplogroups are just the broad-brush approach that locates the part of the world that a person hails from. Even so, there is a certain amount of information that can be got from the tail-end or far-right part of the haplogroup.
Hence, while all three of the haplogroups I quoted for Ireland have the common stem of R1b1a2a1a1b4, it is the next and last letter that separates them all. So, in R1b1a2a1a1b4b it is the b suffix that indicates native Irish ancestry, whereas with the others it is the f or g suffixes that indicate non-Irish (non-native, that is) male ancestry. The above holds true for at least the last 500 years, which seems long enough as no one is ever going to know who that remote ancestor could have been but yes, in Eileen’s case, at least it could become clear if he was a Brun,Browne or Byrne who changed his name or if he was the ‘real McCoy’.
For technical stuff till it comes out your ears or it puts you to sleep (two minutes should do it!) read anything by Charles Kechner (he also gets into the serious business of SNPs and STRs which relate to Eileen’s queries to do with the past 500 years, like in forensic testing) check out:
http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/
Eileen Breen
May 31, 2012 at 11:58 am
Hi Don! FFT: Check out http://WWW.scottishtartansauthority.com They have your Beaton tartan! Also there is a little bit of historical info on the clearances and different clans.
There was an article written by Brian Wilson of the Scottish Tartan Authority
“For many thousands of individuals and families, genealogy has become an exiting and absorbing pursuit. In North America this is especially so and the common goal often seems to prove there’s Celtic blood in the family. One common belief amoungst overseas Celtic descendents seems to be they’re all entitled to a tartan”. (sounds like Celeste Ray)
This “and on the 8th day God made tartans for everybody”. The author concludes that this idea “holds true for those people who capitalize on the phenomenon”. He calls it “Instant Tartan Syndrome”. There are over 140 Irish tartans identifying themselves w/ Irish surnames. The author states Irish tartans are historical fiction. The premise “Which one can we design today’ encourages one to do your homework before buying a tartan. Make sure it comes from a historical, accurate and reputable source.
Eileen Breen
May 31, 2012 at 9:08 am
Hi Don! You said that the KKK wants to trim their outfits w/ tartan trim, this is puzzling to me! Their uniforms are white signifying their “pure race”. A tartan is a plaid and a blend of colors, something they don’t want to be. The KKK are a group signifying that they are white supremacists. They don’t want any other races or blend of other races in their group.
If the KKK is a behaving like a clan how about putting them through your grid? Their Common language and resonance evokes a strong emotion that causes fear. It is recalled in the countless images and stories of their racism and violence against others. Their image of men in white shrouds w/ their faces covered is associated w/ the image of fear, violence, white supremacy and their clan. To put a tartan on their outfit does not make sense. I think people now associate a tartan w/ a Scottish clan as a positive image. But not so w/ KKK. One who studies their ancestry wants to know where they came from and who they were associated with. Do people who study their family tree really understand what their clans did to maintain their group? For ex: who they had to fight, why they fought. The KKK has also used violence. So it seems a little one-sided that we can’t talk about clans as seen just as a positive image. One needs to look at the negative aspect as well.
The KKK uses a location ( US Southern states) and has identified w/ a culture, rights, folkways, religion and values as it pertains to their members but does not consider outside cultures. They have loyalty to their clan. They have mistrust of governmental authority. They are accepted w/in a certain society. They use their power secondary to their position to hurt others. Their beliefs and actions are parallel to others in the group. Their clan has no empathy for others outside the group. Their military readiness is apparent that they are resistive to others who don’t believe in their views. They have a long history of clashing w/ opposing groups but have remain an entity. All their members wear the same all white uniform. It reminds me of a saying “of many one”. You only need to see one KKK member and you know what they all stand for. I don’t think they are able to assimilate or adapt to new environments or accept minority cultures into their group.
God help the company that makes them a tartan! I don’t think any reputable company would do this. I think people want to emulate a particular clan. A tartan symbolizes a families “turbulent and bloody history of the struggle for survival and power of the clans”. It may also symbolize a families love for music, books, friends, wine and how they interacted with their neighbors. The clan Rose had eight centuries of peaceful existence with their neighbors. Wouldn’t this be nice?
Eileen Breen
May 31, 2012 at 10:08 am
Just another thought on kilts/ uniforms. In US there has been a move to have kids who attend public schools wear a standard uniform. That way kids are on the same playing field. no one gets made fun of for what they wear or identifying one for their social class ex: how expensive the clothes and jewelry are. This was done to ensure children are not seen by their peers as outcasts. The students found a way around this by wearing colored bracelets identifying gang affiliation. The schools had to stop students from wearing any jewelry. Perhaps children need to be applauded for their creativity and individuality not their conformity. Doesn’t conformity to a group cause more problems? If one identifies themselves as the in-group don’t they discriminate against those who are not? Those who are in the out-group see themselves as less valued? In the film The Breakfast Club the students viewed themselves as individuals who for one day all got along but felt that others see them by their labels: popular, jock, geek, vocational student and least popular. So why be a conformist and be labeled in a group when you could be an individual and stand out? I think the later is difficult for most people. No one wants to be part of the out group.
Don MacFarlane
May 31, 2012 at 5:45 pm
Other clans, as well as Rose, have managed to live in peaceful co-existence with their neighbours and have not just been hangers-on, turncoats, traitors or lackeys. The downside is that none of them achieved any great distinction or reputation. None of them have been great Highland clans and most of them have been from south of the Highland Line. If they kept out of harm’s way it was because they were too small in number and had nothing worth taking. A few of them had been important in the distant past (marked with an asterisk) but they fell upon hard times, or were allies of bigger clans and were wiped out by association, or didn’t play their cards right. A few of them also became virtually extinct as clans or were massacred (double asterisk); even fewer were constantly pacifist and were respected for that (triple asterisk).
Beaton (MacBeth)***
Buchanan**
Fletcher***
Livingstone***
MacFarlane*
MacLennan
MacKinnon
MacNeill***
Matheson
Colquhoun
Ferguson
Graham*
Shaw*
Lamont **
MacAllister*
MacAlpine*
MacAulay
MacCallum**
MacNaughton
MacPhail
MacPhee**
MacQuarrie***
MacQueen
Nicholson
Robertson
Don MacFarlane
May 31, 2012 at 7:50 am
Per mare per Terras
There lies another story and a full account is given in
http://macdonnellofleinster.org/page_15o_tale_of_donald_the_blac.htm
The gist is that the badge is a perpetual reminder of the treachery of the kings of Scotland and the motto refers to the Lordship of the Isles. There is a big connection here with Northern Ireland as it was during the period of that lordship that so many Highland folk settled in North Ulster, mainly along the coasts of Antrim, Derry and Donegal – long before the Plantation of Ulster by Lowland Scots. There is also a connection between the O’Kanes of Dungiven and the Lords of the Isles.
Incidentally, the present Lord of the Isles is not a MacDonald but Prince Charles, son of the Queen. That is what is known as sticking their noses in it. The MacDonalds may have the badge ‘Per mare per Terras’ of the Lord of the Isles, but that’s all!
As far as kilts go, few Scottish men own a kilt, they only hire them out for weddings.
Eileen Breen
May 29, 2012 at 12:18 pm
Hi Everyone! FFT: This has nothing to do w/ anything but if you need a good laugh check out Humorist Jeanne Robertson. She has several short videos that will make you laugh.:)
Don MacFarlane
May 28, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Dr Noeline Kyle of the University of Sydney, Australia, has put together an Idiot-proof Guide on how to track down a convict grandmother:
Click to access Emigrationpdf.pdf
Unlike what Commissioner Bigge wrote, Dr Kyle writes that on arrival most convict women were assigned to domestic duties for a family, very often a military family. Muster and census records covered all people in the colony, whether convict or free. Good sources are:
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au
and
http://www.sag.org.au
Unfortunately, these sources are not much good as not one of the names on my list appears there. So much for that.
Don MacFarlane
May 25, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Playing Devil’s Advocate
Colonel Gordon of Cluny
The colonel was a poser and a carpetbagger, not even liked within his own family so there is no obligation on anyone else to like him either. But very successful, with a fortune in today’s money worth over £40 million. Most of this came from his Scottish and Csribbean estates; none from his Uist venture which became a moneypit for most people but a pittance to him. He did not appear to have a charitable bone in his body but he proved in death to be generous to “all my bastards” (his words). Appeals to his better nature were bound to fall on deaf ears, as indeed they did. His colonel rank from the Territorials (equivalent to the Home Guard) was for show as he never fought in the regular army.
Do I like this man? Definitely not. Was he a bad man? Still up for debate but there are far more would argue against him than for him – a very hated figure even today, whereas other potential hate figures in Ireland and Scotland (like MacKay and Troy) are almost completely forgotten.
Don MacFarlane
May 25, 2012 at 2:45 pm
Playing Devil’s Advocate
General Hugh MacKay
At first glance, there is little good that can be said about General MacKay, a man who turned his back on his country and massacred those of his countrymen who did not agree with his choice of Prince Regent, and foreign at that. Prince William of Orange recognised in MacKay that he was a superb military strategist and secured his loyalty over King James 1 of Scotland. MacKay knew the risks he was taking and, if captured, he could expect to be beheaded as a traitor, or worse.
There would appear to have, nonetheless, been a softer side to MacKay who won the hearts not only of his Dutch wife-to-be but also of her extended family who were very much taken with his gentle, mannerly and courteous Highland ways. They accepted MacKay as one of their own and he in turn, once having cleared the boglands of Ireland and the glens of Scotland of rebels, left to make what was left of his life in Holland; not much as it turned out as he was killed shortly after at the Battle of Steinkeerke. An epitaph for General MacKay would have to recognise him as a fierce warrior, never afraid of the heat of battle, who had a major part in turning the course of British history although largely overlooked today. For him, duty to God (as he saw it) came before duty to Country.
Do I like this man? No, but I have a sneaking admiration, as I do for Archbishop Troy, for his strength of character. I see him essentially as quite a good but misguided man who put God before country. Was he a good example of a Celt? Yes, but as with Macquarie, not one I would wish to be compared to today if he still behaved the same way. Should Scots be proud of him? Only if they are not Scottish nationalists and only if they are supporters of the current British monarchy. Without MacKay the Saxe-Coburg-Gothas (otherwise known as the Windsors) would now be minor German aristocrats.
Don MacFarlane
May 25, 2012 at 2:43 pm
Playing Devil’s Advocate
Viscount Castlereagh
Viscount Castlereagh is a hero of Henry Kissinger, a sufficient damning in itself. But he was probably a more capable and shrewd politician than several prime ministers whom he served under, having held his own while carving up Europe with Prince Metternich at the Treaty of Vienna. Carving up Ireland was therefore small beer by comparison. Castlereagh was always vaguely ashamed of being Irish which may have accounted for his stammer. He probably had no concept of Ireland being sold down the river and so could not be considered disloyal. With a foot in each camp, and being able to compare the welfare of English and Irish families, he may well have thought that the Act of Union was for the general good, much as Archbishop Troy did.
Do I like this man? Probably not. Was he a bad or unscrupulous man? Probably not. He most certainly was not a man at peace with himself as evidenced by his brutal suicide. RIP.
Don MacFarlane
May 25, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Playing Devil’s Advocate
Sir John MacNeill
Sir John McNeill got too big for his boots and lost sight of the reasons why he chose to enter the medical profession? In fairness, the practice of medicine was much more primitive than it is today. A medic of intelligence in the pre-antiseptic and pre-anaesthetic era might well opt to enter public health medicine to pursue a more detached career focussing on the population rather than the person. The only problem then being, if you are going to do a job do it right. McNeill was guilty of the cardinal in of statisticians or enumerators, ‘jumping directly from unreasonable assumptions to premature conclusions’. This does not necessarily imply indifference on his part, perhaps merely slackness in procedure and negligence; failings unworthy of any member of the medical profession.
Bad man then, probably not. Bad doctor, probably yes. One hopes that he had a few sleepless nights!
Don MacFarlane
May 25, 2012 at 11:21 am
Playing Devil’s Advocate
Cardinal Thomas Troy
Archbishop Troy refused the Armagh prelacy as he saw the Catholic Church in the North of Ireland as nothing but trouble and a den of vipers. By so doing, he declined the position of Cardinal but he still remained the most senior Catholic churchman in Ireland as the Armagh See remained vacant – largely because for it to be filled would depend upon Troy’s recommendation. Troy played fast and loose with the aspirations that his flock had for Emancipation, playing the card of ‘Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s’ – not an unreasonable stance to take as Jesus took the same. He constantly bid his unruly flock and rebel priests (whom he was out of synch with) to knuckle down and be grateful for British Rule, what with the French revolutionaries knocking on the back door. The Catholic Church in Ireland was in a state of shambles, much as it is today, as the Pope and his cardinals in Rome had been expelled by the new King of Italy, Napoleon Bonaparte. Therefore it fell almost single-handedly to Archbishop Troy to work with Viscount Castlereagh to keep the French out of Ireland. When all is said and done, Archbishop Troy can be seen as the complete pragmatist, even at the expense of his own limited popularity. The Catholic hierarchy in Rome on the other hand thought highly of him and they saw him as their devoted servant, even despite his obstructionism against Catholic emancipation. They well understood, as troy did, the mindset of the British monarchy and the House of Lords.
Do I like this man? No, but I have a sneaking admiration for his strength of character. I see him essentially as quite a good but misguided man who failed to see the impossibility of serving two masters – not the Catholic Church and the British Esablishment; the Catholic Church and his flock. Was he a good example of a Celt? Yes, but as with Macquarie, not one I would wish to be compared to today if he still behaved the same way. Should Irish Catholics be proud of him? Probably, but he would be a prime target for assassination from dissident Reupblicans if alive today.
Don MacFarlane
May 25, 2012 at 7:58 am
Playing the Devil’s Advocate
Eileen (Celticknot) has given very careful, well-balanced and fair analyses of the different characters in my book ‘The Sea is Wide’. I will now try to turn these on their head to give a contrary,probably imbalanced, and unfair alternative just to see how they look.
Governor Macquarie
The Governor was not much of a saint, in fact he could be a bit of a rogue. He was often a thorn in the flesh and an embarrassment to the Establishment. So keen was he to get out of the mess he helped to create in Australia that he resigned his post three months early, out of a fit of pique, a decision he soon regretted. He had to then go begging to get his pension reinstated as he had since fallen on (for him) hard times, leaving his wife in a relative state of impoverishment. This whole episode does him no credit and portrays him as an insecure martinet, greedy for recognition and for approval. Macquarie even jailed Dr. William Bland for a year for poking fun at him in verse.
His nemesis and replacement, Governor Bigge, is regarded by posterity as being the baddie who tried to ruin Macquarie’s reputation. In fact, Bigge was probably more like a Sir Humphrey, a rather starchy but efficient civil servant, who saw Macquarie as nothing more than an enthusiastic, well-meaning but bumbling amateur – as someone who was promoted beyond his capabilities. There was much support within the British establishment for this view and it had begun to see Macquarie’s ‘experiment’ as an anachronistic embarrassment.
These convicts should never have been there in Australia in the first place, their very presence was a slur on the British justice system, and Macquarie was intent on rehabilitating them! Macquarie knew this right well but his attitude was ‘I’ve started so I’ll finish!”. He colluded with the corrupt Irish and English judiciary systems, unlike that of the Scottish legal system which was much more fair-minded, by accepting and treating as felons the thousands of Irish convicts who had committed little more than minor misdemeanours. In the process, these convicts were separated for life from their families as no arrangements were put in place to rehabilitate them – such as providing them with free passage home or reuniting them with their wives and children. To add to the injustice, he forced the convicts to ‘live in sin’ or be re-married in a ceremony of enforced bigamy in a Protestant church (not even his own church or theirs as he was not Church of England – any church would do as long as it was not Catholic) and he was intolerant of priests who would have provided an alternative to his proselytising.
He cared too little for his own family of origin. He did not go near his aged mother who was left with no visible means of support nor did he check out her welfare for close on twenty years. Even when he did return to Britain after eight years absence he gallivanted in London for a full year before returning home, despite the appeals from his sick uncle on his deathbed.
Do I like this man? No, definitely not as I see him as a sycophantic, grubbing, puffed-up, bitter, disillusioned, jumped-up bigot. Do I hold this against him? No, as he was just a product of his times. Was he a good example of a Celt? Yes, but not one I would wish to be compared to today if he still behaved the same way. Should Australians be proud of him? They profess to be but this is probably just a gloss – very few Australians try to track down their convict ancestors, the very people who built the colony almost from scratch.
Don MacFarlane
May 25, 2012 at 10:47 pm
I think the Australians have been quite myopic in how they represent Macquarie, typified for example by the recent address by Marie Bashir, Governor of New South Wales, on his legacy.
She made a big play on Macquarie managing 300-odd absolute pardons during his tenure of eleven years as Governor – that would only be one-in-ten convicts able to return to Ireland, supposing they only ever were Irish that were sent (not so,of course, as most came from England). On top of that, the majority of convicts were on seven-year sentences for the most minor of demeanours – stealing cutlery, that sort of thing.
The rest of her address was along similar lines so I mean to track down a more objective account.
Don MacFarlane
May 26, 2012 at 8:28 pm
‘National Portraits’ by Vance Palmer (1941)
Not every Australian has cast the usual uncritical eye over Lachlan Macquarie and the part that he played in the making of Australia. Vance Palmer was the major literary figure in Australia in the period 1920-60.
‘Macquarrie was beginning to enjoy the exercise of arbitrary power, for its own sake: it had become the spice of life. But despite his generous nature he was suffering in his character as well as in his public works from the delusions that come to all dictators. Whatever he did must be right. The men who opposed him must be self-seeking or corrupt; all who agreed with him must be paragons of virtue. He cultivated those it was easy to sway and quarrelled with those who showed independent will. Only from his supporters could he learn what was going on in the country.
So his work was ended. He had brought to it nothing but the energy of an honest, undistinguished man, but that happened to be enough. He had found the colony as a ragged settlement rent by a quarrel between a naval autocrat and a junta of rich land-grabbers; he left it laid with the foundations of civil government’.
Don MacFarlane
May 27, 2012 at 7:30 am
What an Epitaph!
He brought to his life nothing but the energy of an honest, undistinguished man.
This, that was of Lachlan Macquarie, would do me rightly as well.
Don MacFarlane
May 26, 2012 at 7:31 am
Send Me More Convicts!
Macquarie was Governor of Australia between 1810-21, during which time he became known as the reformer of convicts and architect of a humanitarian experiment for which he was later forced to resign. In truth he had enough by then, having set New South Wales on a sounder footing and ready to receive an influx of free settlers.
An increasingly steady supply of convicts was delivered to Macquarie from Ireland during that period, very few ever to return, and the
majority found guilty of minor misdemeanours for which a week in Limerick or Derry jail would have been sufficient punishment. In truth, they had already spent much longer than that on remand while awaiting for a ship (in brackets) to arrive.
From the Mayberry site:
1810 (Indian) 4 convicts, three of them court-martialled soldiers
1811 (Providence) 180 convicts, fifty for life, the rest for seven years (as if!)
1812 none, a fallow year
1813 (Archduke Charles) 223 convicts, sixty for life, the rest for 7 or
14 years (never 8-13)
1814 (Three Bees, Catherine) 360 convicts
1815 (Eliza, Canada) 348 convicts
1816 (Guilford, Surrey) 561 convicts
1817 (Pilot, Chapman) 497 convicts
1818 (Minerva, Guilford, Martha) 897 convicts
The influx peaked at an average of 1200 convicts per annum for five years after Macquarie’s departure, the vast majority convicted of minor offences, and the ‘trade’ only came to an end in 1849.
Don MacFarlane
May 27, 2012 at 12:42 pm
Macquarrie’s Convict Maids
These Ulsterwomen were transported to Australia during the tenure of Governor Macquarrie as Governor. They might well have been referenced in Commissioner Bigge’s report as at the mercy of unscrupulous pimps or unsuitable matches and cohabitation. Their BDM records don’t exist as they were personae non grata and any records of them in convict files were very likely dumped in Sydney Harbour. A number of them may well be unclaimed great great grandmothers.
Convict Ships are in Italics.
Margaret Quinn (50) on Catherine (1814)
Margaret Wilson (36) on Catherine (1814)
Cecily McGrady (30) on Francis and Eliza (1815)
Catherine O’Neil (24) on Francis and Eliza (1815)
Ann Armstrong (26) on Elizabeth I (1818)
Madge Freel (34) on Elizabeth I (1817)
Mary Kelly (40) on Elizabeth I (1817)
Margaret Morgan (19) on Elizabeth I (1817)
Jane Quigley (25) on Elizabeth I (1817)
Ann Armstrong (26) on Elizabeth I (1818)
Isabella McIntyre (30) on Elizabeth I (1818)
Anne McLaughlin (27) 0n Elizabeth I (1818)
Mary O’Hara (18) on Elizabeth I (1818)
Elinor Brannigan (30) on Elizabeth II (1818)
Mary Cloakey (22) on Elizabeth II (1818)
Mary Mawking (29) on Elizabeth II (1818)
Ann Hamilton (20) on Canada (1817)
Sarah Kane (24) on Canada (1817)
Margaret Mullins (20) on Canada (1817)
Sara O’Neil (20) on Canada (1817)
Mary Armstrong (35) on Janus (1820)
Isabella McKenny (29) on Janus (1820)
Ann Maxwell (30) on Janus (1820)
Kitty Rowan (25) on Janus (1820)
Ellen Smith (25) on Janus (1820)
Sarah Gibson (44) on Lord Wellington (1820)
Elizabeth Dougherty on Archduke Charles (1813)
Susan Green (30)on Janus (1820)
Elizabeth Hamilton (30)on Janus (1820)
Isabella Hunter (29) on Alexander II (1816)
Jane McClorinan on Alexander II (1813)
Mary O’Brien (28)on Janus (1820)
Eleanor Mathewson on Archduke Charles (1813)
This sample of women is from Derry and Antrim only, the figure can be multiplied three-fold to taken in all of Northern Ireland. Three-quarters or more of them received seven years for stealing minor items such as tea from the household where they were serving. It was common for these women to be widowed with small children, or for their spouses to have been transported before them, or to be convicted of vagrancy which was a pseudonym for streetwalking or soliciting, or to have spent one to three years already in Irish prisons awaiting a convict ship to transport them although they had already served a long sentence. In sum, these women were collectively victims of miscarriages of justice on a major scale which has gone unremarked and unacknowledged now for several hundred years.
Mary Cornell
May 12, 2012 at 3:30 am
Well, Don, you have made me into a Dara O’Briain addict. Can’t get enough. Very funny stuff!!
celticknot226
May 12, 2012 at 12:38 am
I that thinking that it would be interesting to have a list of topics covered that people could click on(like you have on the right side of the page eg. Bloody Sunday, Peace Talks, Mayberry Convict Stories etc). It could be a brief historical article or a link to research or a comment made? We have covered so many great topics it would be nice for others to see them.
winnie50
May 10, 2012 at 4:40 am
I’m afraid I don’t have any bright ideas about a name for the new incarnation of the site. I’m dazed and confused by what’s been happening lately, though. I’m getting e-mails containing old posts and new posts, but not all the new posts. And I’m unable to find many of them once I actually log in to the site in order to reply. I hate to say this after all the trouble Don has gone to, but as Mary suggested it does seem essential to organize the posts by date. It’s almost impossible to group them by topic because the nature of this mode of communication is that it meanders, rarely focusing for long on one topic.
As for a bookclub, I wouldn’t participate in it. I can’t commit to reading and commenting at a prescribed pace because I don’t have time. And since I read and discuss books for a living, it’s not what I’m looking for in this sort of forum. I’d be more inclined to stick with the original format if it survives the reshuffling. Finally, Don very recently listed some of the queries that have come in regarding ancestry, but I don’t see them anywhere on the site. I’ve been checking periodically because they interest me, but I haven’t seen any sign of them. Am I looking in the wrong place, or is the site is morphing?
celticknot226
May 8, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Food for Thought: On language And Literature:
“To part with it would be to abandon a great part of ourselves, to lose the key to our past, to cut away the roots from the tree. With language gone we could never aspire again to being more than half a nation.” – Emon De Valera
“There is no language like the Irish for soothing and quieting.” – John Millington Synge
“If they really want to revive the Irish Language, all they have to do is ban it.” – Anonymous
“I am very sorry, but I cannot learn languages. I have tried hard, only to find that men of ordinary capacity can learn Sanskrit in less time it takes me to buy a German dictionary.” -George Bernard Shaw
“Will you for Chrissake stop asking fellas if they read James Joyce’s Dubliners. They’re not interested. They’re out for the night. Eat, drink all you can and leave James Joyce to blow his own trumpet.” – Edna O’Brien, The Lonely Girls
Don MacFarlane
May 8, 2012 at 7:30 am
From Winnie 2012/05/02
Don–nothing to do with child abuse–how is it that your family was Gaelic-speaking so late in the game? Are there many speakers left at this point? There seem to be very few in Ireland. While traveling in the West of Ireland a couple of years ago I shamelessly sidled up to elderly Irish speakers in hopes of hearing their conversation, but could never manage to make out the sounds. Upon returning to the US I resorted to online tapes of conversation in Irish. Every syllable utterly unintelligible. It might as well have been Farsi.
celticknot226
May 8, 2012 at 7:07 pm
From the book: The Other Irish by Karen F. McCarthy:
“Those pestiferous Presbyterians, snapped King George III of England about the Scots-Irish in America. ‘They are always in unrest and will be until they are wiped out,” The Scottish left for America after being oppressed by the British rules and taxation, having their religious freedoms and land rights taken away. When the Scottish came to America in the early 1700’s they brought with them their hatred of the British establishment and their loyalty to the clan. Anyone who betrayed them “would meet the time-honored maxim of the defenders of Derry: “No Surrender.”
England tired of the new colonies putting a drain on England’s bank account decided that the colonies should “pay for the honor of colonial rule in the form of new taxes.” England who has not learned from their mistakes in Northern ireland, responded to this by sending in British troops. In 1775 after 5 years of massacres, injustices and coercive legislation, the British marched on Lexington and Concord in Massachusetts. “At lexington they were met by seventy local militiamen. a shot rang out. Eight patriots died. It was the beginning of the American Revolution”.
George Washington tried to wear down the British army to the point of collapse. The Scotch- Irish stayed by his side. in their eyes, failure to beat the English was equated with unworthiness. Over 25 leaders of the Continental Army and half of the ranks of the army were Scotch-Irish.
The Scotch-Irish militia did not believe in allowing their superiors the govern over them. They made up their own rules, elected leaders based on valor and ability based on their traditions. Trust in their leaders had to be earned. In 1777 The Battle Of Saratoga where American troops were victorious over the British and Hessian armies, a Hessian officer stated: “Only call it not an American rebellion, it is nothing more or less than a Scottish Irish Presbyterian rebellion.”
In the south, the Scotch-irish were so numerous that once the British left a location, the Militia took back control. They intimidated local loyalists with vigilante courts and handed down sentences of whipping and property seizure. They tarred and feathered the loyalists without trial. The British invaded Charleston, SC with ten thousand men and massacred settlers in Waxhaw Creek, SC. The South was devastated until a Scotch-Irish skirmish in the backwoods that changed the course of the Revolution.
British officer Major Ferguson in trying to protect Charlotte, NC against the American troops tried to get the Americans to put down their arms or ” Lay to waste in their country with fire and sword.” American Col. William Campbell known for his harsh treatment of the loyalists was elected to lead the charge. Campbell and the Overmountain men told his men ” shout like hell and fight like devils.” The British surrendered after a battle that lasted one hour.
“On hearing of Ferguson’s defeat, the main British forces retreated from Charlotte back to Yorktown, Virginia. British Prime Minister Horace Walpole told his parliament “cousin America has run off with a Presbyterian parson, and that’s the end of it.”
“The Scotch-Irish at the end of this war served their militia duty reliably and patriotically as long as it was on a volunteer basis. The last two hundred years, the structure of the army changed but the warrior ethic at the heart of these soldiers in the south stayed the same”.
winnie50
May 9, 2012 at 3:49 am
Again re Don’s question about Highlanders and the American Revolution, there’s another book that looks very promising, although I couldn’t even view the table of contents because Google Books now prevents potential buyers from doing so in many cases. I did read the one chapter that was posted online, however, which was beautifully written and very interesting, by someone with the unfortunate name of Bumsted. The volume, edited by Ned C. Landsman, is titled Nation and Province in the First British Empire: Scotland and the Americas, 1600-1800, published by the Eighteenth-Century Scottish Studies Society, US 2001.
Bumsted writes that, as was the case with the Irish, Welsh, and English newcomers, the bureaucrats in charge of documenting immigration to British North America, both Canada and the Thirteen Colonies, generally noted only the country of origin, with no indication of the county or city. However, Bumsted states that of the British immigrants whose place of origin was indicated, 20% were Scottish, whose numbers were evenly divided between Highlanders and Lowlanders, if one includes the people from Perth in the former group.
According to Bumsted the Highlanders generally settled in three locations in North America. The two locations in the Thirteen Colonies were North Carolina and New York State’s Mohawk Valley, and of those who arrived before 1800, most were political prisoners, transported convicts, and indentured servants. By contrast, almost all of those who arrived after 1800 did not belong to any of the three preceding groups and generally settled in Canada; of these, almost all were tenants and their families, farmers and artisans with a fair education thanks to the Scottish Enlightenment. They were generally successful in their new pursuits and aligned themselves with the Loyalists in Canada, while also, in many cases, converting to Anglicanism.
In reading the Bumsted article I realized that the strong association I had made between the Highlands and Catholicism pertains specifically to North America. That is, before 1800, most Highlanders arriving in British North America were Gaelic-speaking Catholics.
Don MacFarlane
May 8, 2012 at 7:02 am
From Celticknot 2012/04/30
Hi Winnie: I do agree with you that the RC church covered for the priests in a shell game or scheme not to have this situation be played out in the courts and in public. I was saddened that the victims were not able to come forward because of fear. They needed the church to show kindness and understanding not their indifference by putting the abusers into another church where they could do the same crimes to unsuspecting children and their parents.
I do agree with you that the RC church selects what they feel is best not what the law has determined what is in the best interest of the child. I had a friend who wanted to become catholic and is gay, they told her to pray the gay away essentially. she had to confess all her sins but the RC church does not have to tell God or the victims theirs?
Today I had to go to the doctor. I had to use my insurance that I have from work (I work for a RC organization) They wanted me to only use their services and not the services I had for years. So today I’m canceling my plan w/ RC’s and picking my own that way I don’t have a conflict between what I believe is in best interests and what they think is in my best interests. That was the point I was trying to make that the woman might consider doing this, so she doesn’t have to tell her employer her personal life. As I said before the laws are changing for employees of catholic institutions that they be offered EX birth control or other things that go against the churches belief’s. The church responded be encouraging it’s parishioners not to use birth control. I feel sad for the woman because she wanted a child. I can also understand the churches view about when life has begun which I do not want to debate or offend anyone. I respect your opinons and I’m not offended by what you say.
I do think we are in agreement. I think we need to understand where each side comes from. I also understand the woman feeling upset she lost her job. I was out of work for a year, trying to make ends meet and working when I could get an assignment far from my house. So I understand where she comes from. I do think the woman’s right to choose comes with sacrifices. Thanks again Winnie for your valuable insights!:)
Mary Cornell
May 8, 2012 at 3:32 am
I went back and reread Don’s post on his first language. His first “spoken” language was English. Was English his brain’s first “heard” language? Could his Mother have spoken to him in Gaelic in the first six months or even in the first six hours? According to the therapist, even if it is never used, those words are still present. Speaking Gaelic later on, would simply re-enforce a path to those first “heard” words. All just theory, unless Don would be willing to let us dissect his brain and see what we find! Never mind, I don’t think we want to know.
Something completely off the track, but I went back and researched the fourteenth century to refresh my memory in order to think about one of Don’s queries and was reminded that that was the time period for the Black Death. This in turn reminded me of a study done in England of descendants of the plague. The researchers found a village in England that had a large number of descendants from the fourteenth century. When they did DNA genetic testing, they found genetic markers present in all of the descendants that matched genetic markers in people who are HIV-positive, but who never make the step to AIDS. Nature always has a way of continuing. And this has absolutely nothing to do with anything, but my mind wanders.
Don MacFarlane
May 7, 2012 at 9:00 am
From Winnie 2012/04/29
I’m sorry if you were offended, celticknot. My point was to emphasize the Catholic Church’s hypocritical inconsistency in firing a female teacher for enlisting technological know-how in order to conceive a child while continuing actively to protect male priests who have done things that are universally condemned, ie sexually abusing children. A headline in today’s Los Angeles Times provides a handy example of the shockingly longstanding, widespread, and ongoing corruption: “Priests’ victims waiting still. The files of the L. A. Archdiocese hold the truth about abusers in the clergy. Years after a landmark settlement [$660 million], not a page has been released.” That is, the Archdiocese is still protecting the identities of the offending priests from becoming public, and is flouting the terms of the legal settlement with victims in order to do so. Clearly, the men with authority and influence in the Catholic clergy can and do pick and choose which sins to punish and which to deny, excuse, or cover up. They decide very selectively which believers to persecute–namely the 90% of Catholic women in the US who use birth control and in-vitro fertilization–and which ones to shelter or defend, thereby enabling inside abusers to continue to do harm indefinitely, betraying the trust of the faithful and their vulnerable children alike. Are the Catholic clergy to be permitted to pick and choose which sins and sinners they single out for punishment, on the basis of gender and blatant self-interest? Under the Inquisition they used to make wild guesses as to who was a heretic and torture the suspect in order to learn “the truth.” But society subsequently changed and, to some extent at least, the Church changed with it. Why not press for the kinds of change that are needed in today’s world?
I’m afraid I didn’t specify that the woman who was fired in Indiana based her lawsuit on a question that the Supreme Court has not settled, ie who is to be counted as a “religious worker” in a religious institution. I have many friends who have long been professors at Notre Dame and other Catholic universities. By law they are in no way obliged to waive their civil rights in order to work there, whether or not they are catholic. Many judges in states like Massachusetts and California would have decided in the woman’s favor, but her trial was in Indiana, an ultraconservative backwater if ever there was one. Note that men in teaching positions comparable to that of the Indiana woman are not fired or denounced as sinners for providing sperm for their wives’ IVF treatments, or for donating to sperm banks. There’s an obvious imbalance, such that women are held to a different–and higher–moral standard than men.
I feel strongly that we have to face up to the Catholic Church’s misdeeds and its unmitigated misogyny, while also working to eliminate the conditions that have made them possible. Consider this: the only influential groups in the world who share the Catholic Church’s beliefs and practices regarding contraception and the requirement that women take the risk of becoming pregnant in each sexual act (whether the act is voluntary or not, and regardless of their health, their desire for a child, or their ability to provide for it), are protestant evangelists who have been totally discredited by their own sex-and-money scandals (such as Jim Baker, of Jim and Tammy Faye); Orthodox Jews (as depicted in the interesting Renée Zellwiger movie, A Price above Rubies); and Muslim extremists, ranging from regular-Joe Yemenis and Kuwaitis to Osama bin Laden and many of his Saudi compatriots. Is this the company today’s Catholics want to keep?
I’d have to disagree with you regarding the legality or morality of the Indiana woman keeping her IVF activities to herself. The woman was required to inform her employer of her reasons for requesting days off in order to get her IVF treatments. (The employer repeatedly granted her requests matter-of-factly, then decided much later, along with the Fort Wayne Diocese, that the woman was “a grave, immoral sinner.”) As a Catholic, the woman believed that it was her prerogative to exercise her civil right to use birth control and resort to IVF because the male clergy are simply wrong in their interpretation of the faith in this day and age. Beyond this, it seems clear that in the eyes of Catholics who deem her actions immoral, those actions would be no less immoral if she omitted mention of them. So in my view she did the right thing by acknowledging her actions while at the same time expecting that her civil rights would be respected, even in a Catholic institution. She may even have deliberately intended to challenge the male clergy’s exclusive right to call the shots where conception and maternity are concerned.
I know you weren’t suggesting that it’s acceptable to commit misdeeds as long as they’re kept secret. But since the issue is such a compelling one across so many historical periods–precisely because the temptation is so great–I can’t resist citing Molière’s Tartuffe, a 17th c. French comedy on the subject, one that has its dark, threatening moments. Tartuffe is a Catholic spiritual advisor living in the house of Orgon, the married man who hired him. As he repeatedly tries in vain to seduce Elvire, his benefactor’s wife, Elvire herself, along with everyone else in the household except Orgon, sees Tartuffe for what he is: an ugly, aging, opportunistic dirtbag angling for both financial and sexual gain by passing himself off as a sincere man of the cloth. Urging Elvire to yield to his advances, Tartuffe assures her that their affair wouldn’t be sinful because he would keep it under wraps:
If you’re still troubled, think of things this way:
No one shall know our joys, save us alone,
And there’s no evil till the act is known;
It’s scandal, Madam, which makes it an offense,
And it’s no sin to sin in confidence.
Tartuffe, translated by Richard Wilbur, Act IV, scene 4.
Don MacFarlane
May 7, 2012 at 8:44 am
From Mary Cornell 2012/05/25
In regards to the problems Winnie is having- I am automatically logged in when I go to the website, but– sometimes when I am writing in the reply box, the info/login box will pop up into the space. It will sit either on top of what has been written or will move the writing up out of sight. What I have written is still there, but out of sight. It is difficult to get the info box out of the reply box and sometimes the only way to do it is to cancel the reply and start over. It occurs when I hit the enter button for a new paragraph, but it doesn’t happen every time. Might be the location of my cursor, too, when I hit enter. This doesn’t sound like the problem Winnie is having because the comment is still somewhere in the reply box.
celticknot226
May 6, 2012 at 10:02 pm
Book Club: I have been reading Angela’s Ashes by Frank McCourt. It is an autobiography of Mr McCourts life as it starts in the backdrop of The Great Depression in Brooklyn, NY in the 1920’s. His family experiences a geography of happiness. His father laments for a vanishing era in Ireland when he fought with the IRA to free Ireland from the British rule. Frank’s father feels the family will be happier in Ireland as he was in fighting against the establishment. His father depressed and unable to hold a job because of his alcoholism, puts Frank’s family at risk. The account of Frank McCourt’s family documents a roller coaster of raw emotions of their hardships, poverty, family dynamics, friendships and loss of a child in NY. The grieving family has brief glimpses of happiness surrounded by intense sadness, despair. Frank’s father is from the North of Ireland. His mother is from Limerick, Ireland where she still has family. Their friends help them through the grieving process and pay their passage to return to Ireland.
The geography of hope soon turns to geography of hopelessness in Limerick when Frank’s father unable to cope with alcoholism, periods of unemployment, grieving for the loss of a daughter in NY, now has 4 children. He spends his weekly paycheck in the bars and on cigarettes for himself and his wife even though his children are starving. Two more children die due to the parents inability to care for their children as they live in extreme poverty and unimaginable living conditions.
Frank and his brother starts school and religious education. His parents have another son. Frank is a curious boy who observes those around him in detail. Even though his family has experienced unbearable hardships and loss he shows a sense of humor in his descriptions of family, school and social life.
This is the half way mark in the book. I’m just throwing out some themes of the first half of the book. If anyone has read it it, could suggest topics for discussion, characters, objects, places style of Mr McCourt’s writing or anything else you might want ad. Thanks
Don MacFarlane
May 6, 2012 at 8:24 am
From Celticknot 2012/04/28
In response to Winnie’s statement; I think the woman should have kept her personal life private. If she was a Catholic and knew that this is something that would go against their values she was mixing oil with water. If she was a “true” Catholic adhering to all of the churches teachings she would have not gone against their moral code. The Catholic church does not want its followers to pick and choose what they feel is important. In the Catholic church’s eye, it’s all or nothing! Maybe this church is not right for her and her family. The laws have changed in America, that a Catholic church must provide birth control for everyone regardless if it goes against the Catholic church’s wishes. An employee of a Catholic institution who may not be Catholic must be offered the benefit of choosing birth control. The Catholic church recently made a plea to it’s parishioners asking them not to choose to use birth control. In the area of adoption, the US government has recently stated that a catholic church who runs an adoption center for children must allow gays to adopt. This went against the churches wishes. They pulled all the adoption centers out of Massachusetts! What happened to the separation between church and state in America?
Don MacFarlane
May 6, 2012 at 8:19 am
Not a book but a website on the Irish Land Wars I stumbled across that might be worth a visit can be found at
http://www.maggieblanck.com/Mayopages/LandIssues.html
Don MacFarlane
May 6, 2012 at 8:03 am
From Celticknot 2012/05/05
On the topic of the book club: I was thinking that maybe someone who read the book could suggest some themes or topics of discussion to keep in mind as we are going through a particular book or does everyone want to keep it open ended? I have never participated in a book club so I’m not sure what to expect.
I enjoyed the pictures you have on County Derry and was thinking that it might be nice to have readers contribute photos of their experience there, perhaps limited to scenic photos. Maybe ask readers to limit photos to one or two to allow others to contribute.
Also, the red color on the website may be a little hard to read text for some people. The quote on the top the type could be a little larger?
celticknot226
May 4, 2012 at 3:21 pm
The newspaper The Irish Times is available on Kindle.
Review: From Irish America. Article by Jon O’Brien. Article: What America Can Learn From Ireland: Birth Control Is a Medical Issue, Not a Religious One. P 106, Apr/ May 2012.
The author Jon O’Brien is an advocate for reproductive rights in Ireland. He states “I saw the travesty in a church-sanctioned anti-conception policy that harmed women and families in the name of saving them from sin.” Ireland has overcome the issues of contraception and religious freedom. in contrast, the US RC bishops are waging a war over contraception coverage “under the banner religious liberty.”
In the 1930’s in Ireland the sale of prophylactics and made it a criminal offense. In the 1940’s in Ireland contraception was available and acceptable to the RC church for woman who had seven children or more because of the health effects it had on the woman. In 1948 Dr Browne fought for a comprehensive mother- and- child care program.
Taoiseach Enda Kenny in his Cloyne Report on the child abuse scandal in July 2011 debated the role of the catholic church in the lives of the Irish citizens. He advocated that “Ireland is a mature country that practices a mature Catholicism. Both Irelands traveled a long and painful road to demand a country that serves all citizens.”
Mr O’Brien states that the US Bishops have created Ad Hoc Committee to fight against civil liberties: access to comprehensive reproductive care, distribution of condoms and family planning to prevent HIV, no-copay contraceptive coverage in employee health plans. The author criticizes the US Bishops that they have written their own version of religious liberty at the expense of many Americans. The catholic church receives millions of dollars in federal money while “playing by their own discriminatory rules.” 98% of sexually active Catholic woman used contraception.
American President John F. Kennedy stated “his catholic civil responsibility made him accountable to his conscious alone. Where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials.”
In Ireland, the author concludes that writers like Samuel Beckett, Patrick Kavanagh and Enda O’Brien were made targets by the Catholic church for their “evil literature.” Ireland today sides with John F. Kennedy. The Catholic church was once seen as a symbol of Ireland’s freedom but now does not protect the freedoms of the RC American’s. O’Brien states “one of the conditions of a safe, just society is the ability to follow one’s conscience in accessing contraception.” He hopes that Americans like the Irish will separate themselves from the RC church.
I feel that I believe life begins at conception but the reality of a woman having 10 children like my great grandmother and loosing seven of them before adulthood is unimaginable and heartbreaking. I do believe a woman should have the right to comprehensive medical care that utilizes family planning. Too many woman have died because they did not have access to health care and their reproductive rights were not recognized. I struggle with these issues. I hope the RC church and their parishioners can come to an agreement on these important issues. It should be a matter of conscience not a religious one.
Don MacFarlane
May 4, 2012 at 7:12 am
From Winnie 2012/04/27
Don, if we’re on our way to Scotland and the Hebrides, could we first go back to your reply to celticknot about the O’Cahans in the Hebrides and the trans-ethnic marriage alliance there with a Scottish noblewoman (the daughter of the Duke of Argyll?). I thought you were suggesting that there would have been descendants of the O’Cahan clan (high-born only? a mixed group?) in the Hebrides, and that celticknot’s ancestors may have been among them.
Based on this inference, in responding to celticknot I ventured a hypothesis about O’Cahans in the Hebrides subsequently moving to the mainland (in the Highlands) as so many islanders were eventually obliged to do, and about the “low-born” ones becoming crofters who also worked seasonally harvesting kelp on the Scottish coast–a development I believe Devine referred to in the lecture I listened to online.
Did I have this all wrong? For example, you edited my comment, substituting “North Antrim?” for the Highlands and erasing my reference to crofters in favor of another occupation (one I’d never heard of). Could you please explain?
Don MacFarlane
May 4, 2012 at 7:07 am
From Winnie 2012/04/27
My sense is that the disdain for international law stems from my country’s boundless narcissism. Whether fueled by arrogance or naiveté, ignorance or cunning (all of these come into play), the US’ extravagant displays of self-regard arise from an unshakable conviction that it is the very incarnation of freedom and justice. That being so, the logic goes, it is absurd to consider subjecting itself to judgment by others, who are by definition less just. Haunting this grandiose vision of itself, of course, is an inkling that it be telling that the US imprisons more people and imposes harsher punishments than any other country in the global north; that its people have a shocking tolerance for the poverty of fellow citizens; and that the US’ nonstop wars, none of which can be or could have been “won,” have less to do with justice than with self-interest (access to oil) and a now-futile insistence upon being THE world power, to which every country in the world must defer.As for the convention for the elimination of discrimination against women, it would be a slap in the face to the evangelicals. Encourage female insubordination to husbands and pastors? Support birth control? Prioritize education over shopping?
And in the eyes of the Sarah Palins among us, the convention is unnecessary: Girls, if you want to assert yourselves beyond the realm of the soccer moms (as pit bulls wearing lipstick, wolves in sheep’s clothing, so to speak), just arm yourselves and start shooting! Wolves, sheep, whatever. Speak loudly, and never doubt the truth and integrity of your words. Who needs to know world geography or American history? We ARE the world! American history lives IN us! And hey, who needs politics when you can be on talk shows–maybe even host one of your own–and make A LOT of money in the land of opportunism! I mean opportunity!
Don MacFarlane
May 4, 2012 at 7:06 am
From Winnie 2012/04/27
Right on! The hypocrisy of the Catholic Church is boundless. The head of a US Catholic School has now fired a teacher who had one child with her husband in the way God intended and a second child by means of biotechnological intervention. The reason given for her dismissal was that she was guilty of “grave immorality” and that because she was bound for hell she could not be permitted any further contact with students, even though she taught literature and language (no theology). Unfortunately, the laws of the land protect the right of religious institutions to exclude anyone who, in their view, does not abide by the institutions’ codes, so this woman lost in her lawsuit to be reinstated in her job and compensated for mental distress. Also, the Vatican is threatening to withdraw (or has already withdrawn?) recognition of a group of US nuns refuse to submit totally to the authority of the guys in charge, even though the matters at hand have nothing to do with church doctrine. Some gals are just too darned independent in their thinking and actions and must be punished. Whereas the priests who abuse altar boys . . .
Don MacFarlane
May 4, 2012 at 6:29 am
From Mary Cornell 2012/04/22
Eileen-
In response to your MLK quote. When I read it, it immediately reminded me of the following quote attributed to Edmund Burke–(paraphrased) “Evil wins, when good men do nothing.”
Where were all of the “good” men when these shameful laws were being put into effect? There were a few voices heard, but they were few and far between.
Don MacFarlane
May 4, 2012 at 6:24 am
From Celticknot 2012/04/21
A few years back Gerry Adams came to my city during our St Patrick’s Day festivities. He was selected because he was able to negotiate peace in Northern Ireland. Mr McGuinness is a very passionate and eloquent speaker. I would like to learn more about these two men. In my city we had many people who showed support for Northern Aid and there was a lot of people who wanted a totally free Ireland. I was a little puzzled how Mr Guinness felt that some actions he participated in were “necessary” and others were unnecessary, sad and tragic. I’m glad they were able to find peace.
A few years back Gerry Adams came to my city during our St Patrick’s Day festivities. He was selected because he was able to negotiate peace in Northern Ireland. Mr McGuinness is a very passionate and eloquent speaker. I would like to learn more about these two men. In my city we had many people who showed support for Northern Aid and there was a lot of people who wanted a totally free Ireland. I was a little puzzled how Mr Guinness felt that some actions he participated in were “necessary” and others were unnecessary, sad and tragic. I’m glad they were able to find peace.
Don MacFarlane
May 4, 2012 at 6:21 am
From Celticknot 2012/04/21
Maybe the oppressed Mitchel wanted to be part of the establishment to prove that the people of Ireland had the right to be represented in the government and, to have won the election that was voted on by the Irish people was the icing on the cake.
Why did Sinn Fein not want to take a seat in the government? Did they not like the establishment, the unionists or Home Rule? Did they want all of Ireland to be a free state?
Maybe the oppressed Mitchel wanted to be part of the establishment to prove that the people of Ireland had the right to be represented in the government and, to have won the election that was voted on by the Irish people was the icing on the cake.
Why did Sinn Fein not want to take a seat in the government? Did they not like the establishment, the unionists or Home Rule? Did they want all of Ireland to be a free state?
Don MacFarlane
May 4, 2012 at 6:18 am
I ‘ll let Martin McGuinness, leader of Sinn Fein and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, speak for himself on this one. His interview on Sinn Fein aspirations and politics is to be found in the Late Late Show youtube clip on the People page. This is not just me being evasive, as you might find in Northern Ireland a greater readiness and tolerance amongst folk in recent times to talk about religion, sex and politics.
I ‘ll let Martin McGuinness, leader of Sinn Fein and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, speak for himself on this one. His interview on Sinn Fein aspirations and politics is to be found in the Late Late Show youtube clip on the People page. This is not just me being evasive, as you might find in Northern Ireland a greater readiness and tolerance amongst folk in recent times to talk about religion, sex and politics.
Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 8:18 pm
Submitted on 2012/04/22 at 4:32 pm
Eileen-
In response to your MLK quote. When I read it, it immediately reminded me of the following quote attributed to Edmund Burke–(paraphrased) “Evil wins, when good men do nothing.”
Where were all of the “good” men when these shameful laws were being put into effect? There were a few voices heard, but they were few and far between.
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celticknot226
May 3, 2012 at 9:31 pm
I think there were a few men that stood out to fight for human rights and freedom in Ireland but too many evil men opposed it. I do agree more should have been done.
Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Submitted on 2012/04/22 at 3:32 pm | In reply to celticknot226.
I’m glad you’ve caught the bug!
The poll on a sister website I have
http://westernisles.wordpress.com
shows that about 50% of respondents think it is important to know about the social history of the times as well. There is also an accompanying website to the book which might be of some interest
http://hebridesweb.wordpress.com
Many thanks for your own contributions and suggestions for the site which have breathed fresh life into it as it had gone distinctly stale and, as they say in Ireland, ‘Go robh maith agad’.
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Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Submitted on 2012/04/21 at 12:21 pm
A few years back Gerry Adams came to my city during our St Patrick’s Day festivities. He was selected because he was able to negotiate peace in Northern Ireland. Mr McGuinness is a very passionate and eloquent speaker. I would like to learn more about these two men. In my city we had many people who showed support for Northern Aid and there was a lot of people who wanted a totally free Ireland. I was a little puzzled how Mr Guinness felt that some actions he participated in were “necessary” and others were unnecessary, sad and tragic. I’m glad they were able to find peace.
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Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 8:10 pm
Submitted on 2012/04/21 at 12:19 pm | In reply to celticknot226.
An improved photo gallery would be most welcome. At present, all that I have on site is the Geograph photo gallery Page which has photos of somewhat mediocre quality (including some of my own). Anyone who has photos to share should post a message to that effect and I will get back to them by email to get them transferred to the website.
Perhaps Winnie could coordinate the Book Club as that would be bread-and-butter to her?
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Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 8:07 pm
Submitted on 2012/04/20 at 9:50 pm
On the topic of the book club: I was thinking that maybe someone who read the book could suggest some themes or topics of discussion to keep in mind as we are going through a particular book or does everyone want to keep it open ended? I have never participated in a book club so I’m not sure what to expect.
I enjoyed the pictures you have on County Derry and was thinking that it might be nice to have readers contribute photos of their experience there, perhaps limited to scenic photos. Maybe ask readers to limit photos to one or two to allow others to contribute.
Also, the red color on the website may be a little hard to read text for some people. The quote on the top the type could be a little larger?
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celticknot226
May 3, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Hi Dr MacFarlane: I was thinking about a few things. I tend to over think things so look out, it’s going to be a bumpy ride!
I saw in a magazine a section called Quote / Unquote where people put up a thought or a statement of an issue that interests them. Further discussion could go in the food for thought category.
Amazon.uk has a newspaper and magazine data bank that can be accessed on line and on Kindle. Might be useful for those who want to comment on social issues in ireland. I saw an article What America Can learn from ireland: Birth control Is a medical issue, Not a religious One by Jon O’Brien Irish born president of catholics for Choice. the article appeared in the magazine Irish america April/ May 2012. I found it in Barnes and Noble. Winnie may find this article interesting.
The original photo you had on this site drew me to your site. I was wondering what everyone’s research projects were and their future interest. Perhaps by putting them in the interests box where you sign up for an account might be useful for when we try to find a topic to discuss.
The photo section is awesome. I thought it might be fun to hear and see photos and stories (old and new) of our families from County Derry. I liked the original house photo you had on this site. I have a family photo and brief letter from County derry from 1908. The letter was written in Craigavole, Derry I think and was sent home to Massachusetts to my great Grandparents.
I few items I found today: The Shore: Short Film: a personal story about a man and his daughter who return to Northern Ireland during The Troubles.
Magazines: Ireland Of the Welcomes and Irish America
Art Exhibit: in Ireland: called “Rural Ireland” Shows interiors of homes in mid 1800’s in Ireland. Usually elegant, wealthy homes are shown in films, magazines and books.
Quotes: From History From Gravestones website link on your site: Remember Man as you go by,
As you are now so once was I. As I am now, so shall you be. Prepare yourself to follow me.
“There’s a real danger of people saying the child abuse scandal is over. Let’s bury it. Let’s move on… It isn’t over. The protection of children is something that will go on for the rest of our lives and into the future. Because the problems are there.”- Archbishop Of dublin Diarmuid Martin in a 60 Minutes interview on March 4, 2012. The article was from the magazine Irish America Apr/ May 2012.
celticknot226
May 3, 2012 at 1:05 pm
Hi Dr MacFarlane: I do think it’s important to know how our home country interacts with other countries. we touched on this briefly when we spoke about how the US would not sign the human rights agreement and was thrown out of it’s seat on the human rights council. Americans hold the bar for what we feel is the gold standard in issues such as human rights but fails miserably in our ability to secure human rights for our citizens and in prisons, police brutality, and the death penalty. Further, allowing our companies to go over sees and use child labor so we can buy our goods cheaper.
Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 1:04 pm
2012/04/20
On the topic of the book club: I was thinking that maybe someone who read the book could suggest some themes or topics of discussion to keep in mind as we are going through a particular book or does everyone want to keep it open ended? I have never participated in a book club so I’m not sure what to expect.
I enjoyed the pictures you have on County Derry and was thinking that it might be nice to have readers contribute photos of their experience there, perhaps limited to scenic photos. Maybe ask readers to limit photos to one or two to allow others to contribute.
Also, the red color on the website may be a little hard to read text for some people. The quote on the top the type could be a little larger?
Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 12:55 pm
From Celticknot 2012/04/20
I read with great interest the Mayberry site and I didn’t realize so many laws were made to prevent the Irish from staying on their land, participating in politics and freedom of religion. I just picked up a book ‘The Other Irish: The Scotch Irish Rascals who Made America’ by Karen McCarthy. Maybe some of these folks could be a topic of discussion. Now back to reading your book!:)
Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 12:57 pm
2012/04/20
Some of the Mayberry convict stories, reading between the lines, are very tragic. John Mitchel wrote very eloquently in 1836 about the Penal Laws in his Jail Journal. As a Presbyterian from County Derry (Dungiven) he played a major part in the Young Irelander rebellion (Prof Kinealy’s chapter in my book). He was idolised in Ireland, North and South, by Catholics but he was despised by the Establishment. He also lost his two sons fighting in the Confederate Army in the American Civil War.
Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 12:46 pm
From Celticknot 2012/04/19
You spoke about identifying with the Irish culture. I have a friend who is an American History teacher who feels that Americans should not comment on issues such as politics or cultures of other countries before we know of our own heritage. The websites that encourage us to find our roots in far-off lands should also emphasize that no matter where we are and where we came from we should learn about how a country started, it’s ideals and how we interact with other countries.
Don MacFarlane
May 3, 2012 at 12:48 pm
2012/04/19
I agree and so I will do a review for the Bookclub on Prof Catherine Nash’s book on Irish ancestry which takes this theme further.
I also have a confession to make! I have no Irish blood in me but I grew up in the Western Isles of Scotland in a Gaelic-speaking household. I can’t seem to resist the foolish temptation to translate Irish for my Irish wife whenever I come across a hoarding with Irish on it; I also used to play the Bucks of Oranmore and other jigs and reels on the flute! Still doesn’t make me Irish and my wife got her own back on St Paddy’s Day recently when she handed me a card which read, ‘There are two kinds of people; Those who are Irish and those who wished they were!”
winnie50
May 9, 2012 at 1:14 am
I received an e-mail containing Don’s query about the Loyalist Highlanders in the American Revolution, but as has been happening regularly, I can’t find it on the website once I’ve logged in. So know that I’ve arbitrarily selected a post to reply to. I found an interesting scholarly article on this subject that is very accessible to general readers: http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol5/5_2/newton_5_2.pdf It deals with the Gaelic poetry of Highlanders as an important source revealing Highlanders’ views on their historic relationship with the British king (as his loyal military force) and the ways they in turn relate to Highlanders’ stance during the Seven Years War and the American Revolution. According to the author, virtually no students of the American Revolution have ever considered Gaelic sources’ importance in understanding the Loyalist positions–those positions themselves being, I gather, a relatively new focus in US History. (Go figure.)