Passage West

The leaders of the United Irishmen Rebellion, but only one Catholic amongst them – Dr William James MacNevin, sitting centre with scroll in his hand; perhaps it was the statement he was required to make in exchange for his life.


In a sane world, there must be a limit to what a person would sacrifice for their country – witness the poll taken at a recent Ard Fheis when a poll was taken of committed Sinn Fein supporters on the subject of a United Ireland. Predictably, 96% of delegates were in favour of it but that dropped to a surprising 66% if they thought they had to pay for it viz, have a drop in their living standards, what with the collapse of the Celtic Tiger

Here is the beginnings of a template for the Duffy’s Cut project for ready reference, mostly spaces at present which will soon be filled.




If you like the content of this site, treat yourself to the ebook ‘The Sea is Wide – New Celts from Old Horizons’ which is now available at no cost as a fundraising effort for a Derry-based but world-wide children’s charity (£2.00 minimum donation to Children in Crossfire would be most welcome).


1,236 responses to “Passage West

  1. celticknot226

    January 24, 2014 at 9:34 pm

    Robert Taylor (Robert Taylor and Co) was from Baltimore, MD. A letter in the Hegley Archives from Lommott duPont dated 1819 to E.I. duPont asked his bosses advice to recommend Robert Taylor as agent for duPont’s munitions. The letter stated Robert Taylor was of good character and was worth $200,000-$300,000. His father William H. Taylor (William H. Taylor and Company) was the principal in the firm. Robert Taylor had an office on Eutaw and Lombard Streets near Baltimore Port. They also had offices on Market Street, Philadelphia near the Philadelphia Port.

    I was wondering if any of our searches should look at Baltimore. Perhaps some of the emigration schemes included Baltimore, MD. The three ports, Philadelphia PA, Baltimore MD and Wilmington DE don’t seem very far from each other.

  2. Eileen Breen

    January 4, 2014 at 9:55 pm

    Hi Patrick:

    The LDS info seems promising. I’m glad you’re still in the loop. I was just thinking about you. Keep us in touch if you find something.

    We have been talking about Robert Taylor, agent and relation to James Corscaden. Simon Elliot, a relative to Robert Taylor, contacted Don. I might have found a manifest going to Quebec. An Isabella McCorkle was on it and the ship master was a Young who may also be related to Corscaden. Corscaden married into the McCorkles.

    • Eileen Breen

      January 4, 2014 at 9:59 pm

      FFT: Mary and I put up a ‘History of Ireland’ page on Facebook. We’re up to about the 1800s.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 5, 2014 at 3:18 am

        FFT: I was thinking about John Ruddy and others: Perhaps the laborers were registered as day laborers, fisherman, farmers or other household tasks. Perhaps laborers was not their only job if they had to register in a town hall in order to be placed into different groups who then met transportation to a job site and did a job for a day or seasonal tasks.

  3. maccarleo

    June 30, 2013 at 6:27 pm

    It is odd that Don cannot find anything on Ancestry and Eileen finds a few items. Is the Ancestry search engine completely unreliable? If there is a secret formula to its usage, how are you going to know if you have reached a true dead-end? Possibility this was the Watsons’ Achilles Heel??

    • Eileen Breen

      July 1, 2013 at 12:28 pm

      At first I didn’t find anything on Lappin. I went back to the emails someone wrote on Ancestry. I had to do a lot of searches before I found anything. A lot of what was in his emails were guesses such as immigrating in 1847 (I’m not sure from where he came. I tried Liverpool and Londonderry), He also talked about Thomas Lappin living in other states. I don’t think that’s true. I couldn’t find the Naturalization record. Perhaps I have the wrong state.

      Also with regards to the names of the children, I haven’t found a document that listed all of them together. The mothers name may be Mary Lucille, Mary Louise, Louisa (also translated as Lucia) in a St Anne’s record which I haven’t seen yet. Their daughter Catherine “Katy” may have been married with the name Ganhagan? or Gattivan? There were other Thomas Lappins and other Mary Lappins which may have been where he got confused. So I’m not sure that what we have is correct.

      • PATRICK Ruddy

        January 1, 2014 at 2:55 am


        Been a while since I heard from you. Not had much to say on this but I have found on LDS website two John Ruddy/Roddys living in PA re 1850 census who could well fit the profile of John in the Duffy’s Cut project. One was born in 1814 and the other in 1812, both were born in Ireland but so far I have not got any further with that.

  4. Waxwing

    June 30, 2013 at 6:04 am

    Mary has unearthed a Thomas Lappan from a Family Forum in Ancestry.

    The only connection with our project is that he was sponsored by Philip Duffy. Interestingly, even with all the detail entered and even though Lappan is already in their system, an Ancestry search can’t find him! Enough said?

  5. maccarleo

    June 16, 2013 at 6:31 pm

  6. Eileen Breen

    June 16, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    I looked again at McPhilemy and Leitch families. The names appear in PA and Ontario. There are a lot of choices for some of the names. I couldn’t find the families together.

  7. Eileen Breen

    June 15, 2013 at 12:34 pm

    Perhaps we can check our waxwings in Toronto and Quebec and see if we get anything.

    • Waxwing

      June 15, 2013 at 3:37 pm

      If you have the Canadian Ancestry as well that would be great. Perhaps if you limit yourself to super-waxwing names I posted yesterday in the first instance?

      • Waxwing

        June 24, 2013 at 6:59 am

        My wife tells me she is going off for a month to Australia, which leaves me with time on my hands!
        During that month I will spend some time going through 1832 local papers at my leisure.

        I’ve lost track of my azimuth or sense of direction as to where we are with our research.

        Have we decided Ancestry is a ‘beaten docket’ and that, short of checking papers in Archives, we have no way of proving or disproving the survival of the waxwings post-Duffy’s Cut?

      • Eileen Breen

        June 24, 2013 at 2:25 pm

        Mary and I can help you get your azimuth back! If you have time the newspaper archives might prove worthwhile! Ancestry only had limited issues so your trip to the archives could be worth the trip. Perhaps you’ll find something we didn’t on line. If they had newspapers from Donegal it might be interesting to see if they have any ads for weavers or if they mentioned anything about who hired them.

      • maccarleo

        June 26, 2013 at 2:38 am

        I have also felt a little lost at sea, or rather like I am spinning my wheels and getting nowhere. I set aside the chapter because I began to feel frustrated with it and thought I needed to refocus on the objective and then return to it. My feeling right now is that we have accumulated so much information that needs to be sorted out first before we can move forward.

        I don’t think we have lost the azimuth, but have lost how to get there. Oddly enough, the off-topic articles that Eileen and I find seem to help me focus on the waxwings. So maybe we need to alternate between the wide angle lens and the microscope.

      • Waxwing

        June 26, 2013 at 7:18 am

        I have already collated the best bits of what we have gathered, although I need to update it, and they are in the Waxwings to Philadelphia page.

      • Waxwing

        June 26, 2013 at 6:53 pm

        Selected Counterpoints to the Watsons
        Extracted from Waxwing Page

        1. Great majority of passengers on the four ships were Protestant (50-70%).
        2. Many of the waxwings were poor cousins of Scottish nobility.
        3. Land in PA and neighbouring states was being sold off at peppercorn rates.
        4. Most waxwings came from the Laggan Estuary in Donegal and Tyrone.
        5. Indentured labour for this group is conjectural.
        6. Amount of information on ships’ manifests was erratic.
        7. Transcription errors were the norm.
        8. Clustering of passengers on ships provide hints to kinship and place of origin.
        9. Weavers may have been snapped up by DuPont.
        10. Ancestry searches should concentrate on PA, OH and DE.
        11. Philly Street Directory gave few results, suggesting waxwings did not linger.
        12. Earlier lists of Wilmington-bound emigrants suggest chain migration.
        13. Eileen’s family tree entries could bear fruit.
        14. Irish landlords were very random in their rental charges.
        15. Those listed as weavers were mostly not weavers.
        16. Likewise, those listed as farmers were not farmers.
        17. Names on Duffy’s Cut memorial are wrong.
        18. An unspecified number of the waxwings could have ended up in Canada.

        With that alone there is enough to fill a book but I would dearly love it to also include a genealogical guide to the pitfalls and blind alleys awaiting novice family researchers, notably users of which I still think is a rip-off.

      • Waxwing

        June 26, 2013 at 7:47 pm

        Perhaps if you let me have what you have done on the chapter I could finish it off? With ‘The Sea is Wide’ I had to do some serious editing on a number of the chapters to whip them into shape. The final say would of course remain yours.

      • maccarleo

        June 26, 2013 at 9:10 pm

        Many of the items you have listed, I am trying to incorporate into the chapter, but I feel as though I am giving them short shrift. So I am not sure whether to simply mention them in passing or to spend more time with them.

        My instinct is to make the chapter about Duffy’s Cut, with the rest brought up as counterpoint, but to be dealt with more completely and succinctly in the book. When I do this, it feels incomplete when I read it.

        I will sort it out and try to get a more manageable piece sent out to you. Hopefully, I can have it ready in a week. Luckily, you and Eileen both know where the chapter needs to go. That does take some of the pressure off.

  8. Eileen Breen

    June 14, 2013 at 10:08 pm

    The James Snodgrass military record shows he was a carpenter. Our James Snodgrass was a farmer. There is a widowed, Presbyterian farmer named James Snodgrass in New Brunswick, Canada. Although this seems far away from Philadelphia. The other Snodgrass choices are born in US.

  9. Waxwing

    June 14, 2013 at 8:13 pm


    Perhaps not the same James Snodgrass as two years younger (?) but almost certainly related as there were only twenty Snodgrass households in Ireland and they were all in North-West Ulster.

    James Snodgrass Civil War Record

  10. Waxwing

    May 12, 2013 at 8:35 am

    Fritz Springmeier

    This man (from Oregon) heavily researched the links between the DuPonts, Jefferson, Franklin and the Freemasons/Illuminati

    He seems to have overstepped the mark however and he did eight years in a federal penitentiary for armed robbery. Since his release in 2011 he seems to have gone very quiet!

  11. Eileen Breen

    May 3, 2013 at 1:19 pm

    The Peggy McKendrick letter to duPont was in November of 1832

  12. Eileen Breen

    April 14, 2013 at 8:00 pm

    If our story came before the Catholic Emancipation why would the RCs trust the Protestants? If the church idea is correct then maybe the men were more Protestant than Catholic? Unless the landlords/employers were Protestant/H.I.S. and they proposed the idea of emigration. It seems like the recruiters had the major townlands covered. An article Don put up also said there were four shipbrokers but it didn’t say who they were. It would be interesting to see how many ship builders also had a Philadelphia connection. So far Moleson, Corscaden and duPont and Cunard did and all were Masons.

    The Masons were established in Philadelphia before the American Revolution. I was also thinking, with the waves of emigration to Philadelphia when the Scotch-Irish came first, perhaps many of them were Masons. The film on the Masons showed two lodges that were very early in Philadelphia prior to the one built in 1880s. One of the Masonic lodges was in Independence Hall. One Mason lodge was burned by anti-Mason’s in the 1860s. The two earliest lodges still exist. I think there is a link between the Londonderry, Canadian and Philadelphia ship builders and the Masons.

    • Eileen Breen

      April 14, 2013 at 9:24 pm

      From LPHC History Of Derry Port:

      In the 17th-18th century, in a city dominated by merchants, shopkeepers and craftsman, only Freemen (Masons) of the city were entitled to conduct business, own property, and receive protection within the walled city. Freemen consisted of two classes – the first were entitled by birth, apprenticeship, marriage or purchase. The second were those granted it by favor. The minute books record frequent complaints of freemen about ‘strangers and foreigners exercising their trade’ in Derry’. In the minutes the freeman levied a tax on all foreigners’ goods or imports in or out of the city of Derry.

      In 1767, sixty seven ships were owned by the merchants of Derry. In 1838, Derry was linked to sixteen ports in Ireland and fifty three ports in England. From 1834-1850, fifty four ships were bought by Derry merchants, twenty eight of these were bought in Canada. In 1833, there were forty one sailing ships owned by Derry merchants, fifteen were involved in the North America emigrant trade, three were steamships. Canada was an economic necessity for Londonderry in order to keep the supply of timber for their ship building business.

    • Eileen Breen

      April 14, 2013 at 9:31 pm

      The Alexanders (S. and J.) were Derry shipbuilders. I only saw this name from the article Don put up. Still need to confirm they are the ship builder Alexanders. The family tree for Youngs of Culdaff and Inishowen shows Youngs and Alexanders. Master John Young of the John Stamp and Corscaden may be related to the Alexanders. I had asked this person who owns the tree if he knew about the connection but he didn’t have any information. The history of the Alexanders shows them in Donegal in Inishowen near Patrick. The history shows that in the 1700s at the time of the Plantation. We need more information to confirm their story. They also have a Philadelphia connection. I sent everyone their story and it’s on the ship builders’ tree.

  13. Patrick

    April 14, 2013 at 7:46 pm

    This is on Lindel Buckley’s great web site

    It seems that the lands originally were bequeathed to Tristram Cary, son of Edward Cary of Dungiven, and Sarah Brazier, widow of Paul Brazier, daughter of Sir Tristram Beresford.

    “To my 3rd son Tristram Cary the two towns which I have in the Parish of Bovevy being parte of the lands which I hould from the Bishop of Derry and also the three quaterlands of Doneugh lying in the Barony of Enighowen”

    George Cary was Tristram Cary’s son by ? and he probably inherited these three quarterlands of Donagh and established the branch of the Cary family, based at Tiernaleague. One of his sons was Micah Cary who married Mary Anne Hamilton, widow of Tristram Cary (possibly a second cousin) and died in 1789. He died intestate and so the lands held by lease under the Bishop of Derry were divided – 1/3 to the widow and 2/3 equally to the 8 children, 4 boys & 4 girls. Each child therefore received a 1/12. The eldest daughter, Mary Anne Cary, married Charles Hamilton; Martha Cary married William Rankin, Frances Cary married Samuel Rankin (not a brother but almost certainly a cousin of some kind to William) and Jane Hamilton Cary married Thomas Levet Metcalfe. The eldest son was George Cary who left, probably having reached a settlement with his youngest brother Robert of an annuity in exchange for his 1/12 share – this is mentioned in Robert Cary’s will. William Cary died prior to 1813. Tristram Cary married but little is known about him, although various family letters refer to him. Robert Cary the youngest did not marry, but did have an illegitimate son, Matthew Cary, to whom he left property in his will and who is also referred to in some of the family letters as having gone to sea. When Mary Anne Cary (mother) died abt 1813 she left her 1/3 share to Robert Cary, this must have caused a certain amount of family friction because advice was sought from Counsel as to whether she had the right to will her one-third share in this way.

    Robert Cary took over the management of the estate for the rest of the family but clearly from the letters, this caused yet more aggravation and by 1820s he was getting thoroughly fed up. There appears to have been some division of the holding within the family, such that some of them were collecting rents etc on their own behalf. The initial agent, as far as Martha Rankin nee Cary and her son Samuel Rankin were concerned, was Robert Moore, however he clearly had a falling out with Robert Cary and is dismissed as agent. Robert Cary then appointed Dan Doherty as agent, possibly for the whole estate but certainly for himself and his sister. Dan Doherty seems from the letters to be a less educated man than Robert Moore.

  14. Eileen Breen

    April 12, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    Mary found a John Munn, mayor of Londonderry in 1829. There are two Munns listed a John Munn esq., MD and a John Munn Jr., both lessors. Mary also found a John Munn in Canada (Jennie Johnson article) and the date is later than the first John Munn so it may be his son.

    • Eileen Breen

      April 13, 2013 at 12:10 pm

      The Alexander Munn article from Mary has interesting points: Alexander may be the son of John Munn Esq., MD and brother to John Munn Jr. Alexander had a son John. They had a connection to Molson Brewing Company in Quebec where John Jr was Mayor. I think this company is on the St Lawrence River. I remember seeing it when I went to Quebec. The article also said that for the St Johns New Brunswick colony you needed a political connection to belong. Perhaps in Derry you needed to be political as well. The article also referred to “freedom of the city” which is also mentioned in the Mason’s philosophy.

  15. Waxwing

    April 9, 2013 at 5:28 pm

    A Query I sent off to Prof Dolores O’Reilly (author of ‘Atlantic Gateway’).

    ‘Some quick queries please, as you are one of the authorities on Derry as an early emigration port.

    Did the duPonts have any hands-on dealings with Derry shipping agents or were they just one of the regular users of the facility?

    Were the Derry emigration agents, such as Daniel Baird, Cary McClelland and others, complicit in securing young fit males from the Derry hinterland to build the Pennsylvania railway?

    Did the HIS (Honourable Irish Society) or Freemasonry have any vested interests in the emigration trade in Derry’?

    Not holding my breath for a reply!

    • Simon Elliott

      December 28, 2013 at 5:40 pm

      My ancestor, Robert Taylor of Philadelphia, acted as agent for his relation, James Corscaden, ship owner of Derry. Robert engaged the passages of Irish emigrants over a long period on behalf of Messrs E I du Pont & Co. There is a run of his letters at the Hagley Museum and Library of which I could give you the reference in case you are unaware of the archive.

      It is evident that by no means all the emigrants were intending to work for du Pont and I would be grateful to hear your thoughts on what the du Pont Company’s object might have been in facilitating immigration on this scale.

      du Pont did not apparently deal direct with Derry but rather through Taylor.

      Hoping to hear from you

      Simon Elliott in the north of England

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 30, 2013 at 8:22 pm

        We (myself, Mary Cornell and Eileen Breen) have been researching the 52 young male passengers of the John Stamp who sailed from Derry possibly to their deaths within six weeks at Duffy’s Cut in Malvern County PA in 1832. We would be keenly interested to find out any information you may have on Robert Taylor (agent) and James Corscaden who owned the John Stamp.

      • maccarleo

        December 31, 2013 at 2:39 am

        That is the same question we have asked ourselves and have been attempting to find out. The small percentage that ended up working in the duPont factories do not seem to have been a very profitable undertaking considering the number of immigrants who were financed by duPont. Just how did duPont profit from his ‘philanthropy’?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 31, 2013 at 7:24 am

        The book ‘Black Powder, White Lace’ by Prof Margaret Mulrooney on the ‘Du Pont Irish’ makes no mention of Derry or the emigration scheme, underwritten by Du Pont or his agent(s), that was obviously in place. As Mary would say, “hmmm….”

      • maccarleo

        December 31, 2013 at 11:26 am

        An item on the Hagley Site states that Robert Taylor continued to use Londonderry port even after everyone else began using Liverpool exclusively. Playing Devil’s Advocate, Taylor could possibly have profited financially through kickbacks from Corscaden by solely using Corscaden’s ships, keeping it all in the family. This still does not explain the DuPont puzzle. They did not profit in any visible way from their ‘generosity’. Loyalty from one worker would not seem to balance the scales when the passages of entire families were paid.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 9, 2014 at 7:06 am

        Just a thought on Simon’s letter:

        duPont not only had shipping interests in Derry be also had ships on the waterways in Philadelphia on the Delaware River, prior to and after the trains were established in the Philadelphia and Delaware areas and also in S. America. Mary found that Robert Taylor was also an agent for McCorkle lines. They did the cross-channel traffic and some trans-Atlantic transportation.

        Simon: What is your connection to Corscaden and R. Taylor? Do you have a family tree on1line?

        I think the emigrant travel was a way to fill the ships and to keep his businesses with cheap able-bodied workers and the work was dangerous. The emigrants seemed to travel to Delaware willingly and there was no evidence of evictions from the Beresford or other estates. The Beresford landlords also treated their tenants fairly. From all accounts I read, duPont treated his workers fairly but at the same time he knew how to keep his businesses in the black.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 25, 2014 at 5:57 am

        Hi Simon

        Earliest travel across the Atlantic involved emigrants finding their own passage on a ship crossing. Emigrants in the 1830s and after this found it easier to hire an agent to arrange the passage. Agents made a commission on each passage sold. Sometimes an agent would purchase all the tickets for a particular passage then resell the tickets making a profit. There is a letter in the archive that shows the profit they made. I think it was about $1300 for one ship.

        In a few of the letters, duPont and Taylor talk about the laws for emigrant tax and the rules they had to follow. Early on, the rule was two passengers per five tons that the ship weighed. Later on it was one passenger per five tons which cut their profit margin drastically. Robert Taylor wrote to someone in Derry and asked them to explain to the passengers that it didn’t matter if the person was two days old or 99 years they had to purchase a ticket, due to the passenger-five ton rule, although there were discounted rates for those under 12 years. He also showed frustration with this rule as people tried to pass off children as younger than they were for the discounted rate.

        From the Hagley Archives, Robert Taylor was the first agent to work with the emigrants full time during the 1830s – 50’s except for 1837 when another agent was hired at a cheaper rate than R. Taylor. Robert was then rehired. Robert worked out of the Port of Baltimore MD and the Philadelphia Port. (Robert A. Taylor and Co, Market St, Philadelphia PA and Eutaw and Lombard St, Baltimore MD).

        I found a document stating the property there belonged to his company. His father, William H. Taylor (William H. Taylor and Co, Market St, Philadelphia), was also the principal in the company. Robert was recommended for the agent position in 1819 by Lammott duPont. Robert was successful on his own and had earned $200-300,000 by 1819 when the letter was written. In 1847 Robert Taylor’s office was listed at 32 Walnut St, Philadelphia PA.

        From the Hegley archive someone did a summary of Robert A. Taylor’s history with E.I. duPont. Robert always signed his letters to duPont by saying ‘Your Humbled Servant’. In the summary it stated he was of Irish descent. On Ancestry, I connected to a family tree that contained Corscaden, Wolfe, Blood, Findlater and Taylor. She had three Robert Taylors listed but I don’t have the exact ‘Robert Taylor’ from that tree, her dates are a little later, but I do think I have the right tree. She was not aware that there were Taylors in Baltimore. I did pass the information to her and she was kind to give me access to the tree.

        So, iff Simon needs to make a connection I can pass your information privately or you can go on Ancestry and you can contact her. There are also several people researching this tree online. Our Robert was born in 1787 in Baltimore MD. The owner of the tree stated that in her family she didn’t have any Irish Taylors. I think the family was from Scotland. Taylor was involved in The Friendly Sons Of St Patrick and held several offices in the social group including President, VP and Treasurer. Robert also worked for James Corscaden out of Londonderry and William McCorkle.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 25, 2014 at 6:51 am

        It is possible that James Corscaden perhaps bought all the tickets for a particular ship and dealt with the passengers in Derry at his office on Shipquay St. He made a commission on each passage, Corscaden then sent the information and money to Robert Taylor who would act as a go-between and write to duPont to tell him at what price a ticket was sold for, how many tickets were sold, any emigrant laws they needed to be aware of as related to costs and received the money for the passages from Corscaden. It was known that E.I.duPont paid Taylor a cash rate although he didn’t pay E.I. duPont cash. E.I. dupont sent payment (commission) to Taylor at regular intervals. E.I.duPont also operated like a bank.

        As the emigration from the North of Ireland to the Philadelphia Port picked up momentum, some sixty thousand people left the Derry Port during Taylor’s twenty-year history with the duPont company (1830-50). More people needed the passages to be assisted so Corscaden notified Taylor and Taylor who needed assistance and how much was needed. E.I. duPont would then front the money for the trip which the emigrant needed to pay back. I think this is where duPont made some money. Instead of charging interest for the loan he offered to house them and offered the emigrant a job to work in his munitions factories which was a dangerous job. He also realized he needed loyal employees so he also assisted whole families to come. This probably kept his workers happy. The employees then paid E.I. duPont back at regular intervals.

        Maybe duPont charged a little interest on the money that was loaned and may also have charged for food, clothing and rent. I think E.I. duPont was a visionary in this. He knew how the make maximum profits. The employees seemed to be happier in US where they were living in better conditions, had a better diet and had their families with them.

        In an article I read about emigration to Canada from Ireland, it stated that the Masons who assisted with helping to rid Ireland of the ‘unwanted’ due to overcrowding, famine, poor crops in some years and high unemployment rate knew they could not just dump them in ‘the Dominions’. They had to make them worthy by giving them jobs, clothing, food and housing. The Masons were all about making ‘friends’ with those who were equal to themselves. You could become a Mason through a recommendation, hard work and working your way up the ladder. It seemed like a win-win situation for the emigrant and Shipping agent alike.

        The Irish were living in improved conditions and were happy to have their families with them. They had a job and they could support their families. Although emigration at first may have seemed like a death sentence by leaving some loved ones at home, duPont made this a better situation by keeping their families together. It also meant they didn’t have to face the harsh realities of being indentured servant. They were paid regulary, fed, had htheir families housed and could repay duPont at a regular rate.

  16. Don MacFarlane

    April 8, 2013 at 7:16 am

    Free Agents

    This from the Strabane Morning Post illustrates that folks were able to make their own way to PA unencumbered by any obligations to DuPont or their likes, as long as they had the means.

    ‘NOW IN PORT FOR PHILADELPHIA, The Beautiful, First-class, ONTARIO.

    Burthen 700 tons: JOHN CONNELL, Master. To Sail positively the 21st March next.

    The ONTARIO is a superior fast-sailing vessel, fitted up in a most comfortable manner for Passengers, and will be despatched at the above date, or, if the wind be unfavourable, she will be towed down by a steamer.

    Captain Connell’s kindness to passengers is so well known as to require no comment. Persons intending to emigrate this season should immediately secure berths in this superior conveyance, as her complement will also be engaged.

    For passage please apply to Mr. Samuel Morton, Mr. Leslie Sault, or Mr. Thomas Hamilton, Strabane; Mr. Lavens Mathewson, Mr. Stewart, Mr. William McCreery, Omagh; Mr. James Doughorty, Limavady; Mr. Robert Clegg, Enniskillen; Mr. Robert Laird or Mr. John Toner, Ballbofey; Mr. John Green, Ballyshannon; Mr. Gallagher, Letterkenny; Mr. William Henderson, Castlederg; Mr. James Sherrard, Fintona; Mr. John Sweeney, Filleton; as the Sub. souber, who will put on board an abundance of Fuel and Waters for the voyage.

    FOYLE STREET, DERRY Feb. 18,1832
    Elegant accommodation for Cabin Passengers.’

    Clearly there was no shortage of emigration agents. Also, notwithstanding the Ontario being such a ‘fine ship’, it is even so very likely that it would make itself available to ragamuffin passengers of the labouring variety. There would have been less salubrious compartments in the hold which would be jam-packed with the lower-class who became a human ballast. The above advertisement is clearly for cabin passengers only.

    It is also noteworthy that the ship was berthed for a full month before sailing, so it wold have been common knowledge that there was an emigration ship in port. No need then for more sinister press-ganging arrangements to solicit passengers for the US.

    • Waxwing

      April 8, 2013 at 7:50 am

      Other Emigration Agents

      ‘By 1833 seven merchants in the city – Daniel Baird, James Corscaden, John Kelso, William McCorkell, James McCrea, John Munn and Joseph Young – owned fifteen vessels, all engaged in the North American emigrant trade’.

      From Four Courts Press comes

      Atlantic Gateway: The port and city of Londonderry since 1700
      Robert Gavin, William P Kelly and Dolores O‟Reilly (Four Courts Press, Dublin, 2009).

      This is the reference work for the academic or serious general reader who wishes to research the history of Derry port and its relationship with its hinterland.

    • Waxwing

      April 10, 2013 at 7:33 pm

      So I guess some queries with the network of emigration agents being so well-established are:

      Did any of these agents handle the waxwings’ emigrations?
      Did the railroad or Duffy, much as DuPont did, make contact with any of these agents to recruit for them?
      Did the waxwings just apply for places on ships as ordinary-paying passengers?
      Did they just take pot-luck and arrive jobless and/or were they pressganged by Duffy on the quayside?

  17. Eileen Breen

    April 8, 2013 at 12:22 am

    Thanks, Mary, for all the Beresford family peerage information and the 1812 article. It’s interesting that Captain John Beresford was sent by the British to fight in Delaware in the War of 1812. E.I. duPont and his brother Victor were very industrious and profitable selling gunpowder and uniforms for the War. It’s interesting that duPont and Beresford were Masons and that their goal was imperialism, promoting the Masons and the Crown. Also, did duPont chose to side with the US did he just make a profit?

  18. Waxwing

    April 2, 2013 at 8:37 am

    Quotes from a Favourite Philosopher (Voltaire)

    ‘I never made but one prayer – “Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous” – and He granted it!’

    On his deathbed and on being asked by a priest to renounce Satan and all his works – “Now is not the time to be making new enemies!”

    ‘Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers’.

    ‘I do not agree with much of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’.

  19. Eileen Breen

    April 2, 2013 at 12:55 am

    The name Tristram has appeared several times in the Beresford tree. Tristram Cary, born in 1646 in Inishowen, was Lieutenant of Coleraine and he died 1726. His father was George Cary of Redcastle and his mother was Jane Beresford. His spouse was Eliza Mokton b.1650 and his siblings were Frances, George, Elizabeth, Lettice, Capt Edward Cary, Henry, Ann, Mary and Edward. There was a reference to a will in Dublin but I could only see the reference number and no details for Tristram and a few others in the family.

    On Ancestry on the UK site there was someone researching Youngs of Culdaff and Inishowen. They had in their tree, Young, Watt, Beresford and Cary. MacClelland and Corscaden were not in this tree. They had several John Youngs but one was born in 1761 in Liberia and died in 1834 in Bath, Somerset, England. We found the John Stamp with a John Young, Master and Cosignatory with R. McClelland in 1835.

    So this is probably not him but maybe one of the other John Youngs in the family might be ours. I wrote to see if he knows anything. I saw a Watt family researching the Beresford tree. I found the Tithe Applotment that Patrick said for 1828 for Donagh, Donegal.

    Still trying to find church records for Tristram Cary as Carey may be related to MacClelland. I noticed one of the main faiths was Methodist and one of the societies the duPonts belonged to was a Methodist society: The Holy Brotherhood.

  20. Eileen Breen

    April 1, 2013 at 11:24 pm

    I think the Illinois duPont’s and the Delaware ones are the same. I saw in the duPont’s tree they had the name Cornelius duPont. The name of the town in Illinois was duPont. Perhaps the Delaware group did the sail-ships (cargo and passenger) that did the trans-Atlantic crossing and the Pennsylvania canal ships (Christiana and E.I. duPont).

    The town the duPont’s lived in was Christiana. Also I saw an ad for a new ship that was launched for the canal system in 1831 called the E.I. duPont. The Indiana group must have been into using trains for transporting cargo in 1850s. They were also slave owners in Indiana and I also saw slave plantation records in Caribbean. I have to go back and look at it again but the owner was a duPont.

  21. Patrick

    April 1, 2013 at 4:23 pm

    Going through the Tithe Applotment for the parish of Donagh there is a Tristram Cary, a John Young and a H(?) McCorriston, who have small pockets of land about 1.5 acres in size. If these are the same men who seem to be a wealthy lot why these small pockets of land, a holiday home of some sorts perhaps. It’s also worth noting the names of their neighbours and while it may be a wrong suggestion perhaps the recruiting for the John Stamp was done from here. I also wonder if the other ships’ passengers were recruited from other parishes in a similar way in some sort of orderly fashion i.e. one ship filled with folk from one parish then the next ship from another.

  22. Eileen Breen

    March 30, 2013 at 1:21 pm

    I tried to find out if duPont owned a railroad. The only thing that came up was his shipping business , a ship he launched in 1831 called the E.I. duPont that used the waterway canal system and about the waterway system. It may have been how the P&C RR received it’s goods at Duffy’s Cut.

    • Waxwing

      March 30, 2013 at 3:55 pm

      DuPont Expendables

      ‘Black powder, as gunpowder was called then, was used for much more than just hunting. Mining and railroad companies used it for blasting away rock, and farmers used it to clear land. Making gunpowder was a very dangerous business. There were 288 explosions at the DuPont mills resulting in 228 deaths. Often, local people were afraid to work in the mills, so the company brought many workers from Ireland and Italy’.

      from and

      • Eileen Breen

        March 31, 2013 at 12:28 am

        DuPont Letters

        Alfred duPont in 1848 in his accounts purchased beer for the powdermen and coffins. Prior to this entry there were lettere relating to several explosions settling estates of two people. In April1847, there was an explosion where eighteen men died. In Alfred’s later records they referred to business with the BrandywineRR and a few others. I didn’t see the P&C. I think the Philadelphia RRs were first followed by the P&C. I did see another article that suggested the duPonts sold munitions to railroad entrepreneurs.

        E.I. duPont and his father fought in the French Revolution and his father was raised to the level of nobility. After the revolution nobility were seen as people who could restart a revolution so they were politically exiled. Perhaps that’s why they chose Ireland first to emigrate to because it was close to home. They later emigrated to Rhode Island in 1800, NY and Wilmington, DE. I just read he helped negotiate for land in West Florida. The Beresfords had a large estate in Florida on the St John’s River. I also read E.I’s father was a Mason.

  23. Waxwing

    March 30, 2013 at 9:36 am

    The affinity of duPont for all things Derry continues to this day and it was the largest single employer in Derry throughout the Troubles

    The bond between Derry folk and duPont remains very strong. I remember once trying to educate my six year old nephew into how rubber was made and I said “Did you know that rubber comes from trees?” His Dad worked in duPonts and he looked at me as if I had two heads before quickly retorting “Not round here it doesn’t. It comes from duPonts!”

    BTW The duPonts were Protestant (French Huguenots) so the connection may have had something to do with that. Ireland had been a place of sanctuary for exiled Huguenots for centuries following the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre – the Patchills being a case in point – and the duPonts likely knew that.

    From a more hard-nosed point of view, it may not have mattered much to duPont whether Irishmen or Chinamen built the PPR railroad – it was mainly Irish who built the bit that started at the east, the Chinese built the bit that started at the west. Be that as it may, there seems to have been a patchwork of motivations at play here?

    The book by Margaret Mulrooney, ‘Black Powder and White Soul’, may shed more light on it but one possible angle might be:

    The Duffy’s Cut episode had nothing to do with Famine or forced eviction in Ireland (the pattern of emigration was too patchy)?

    It may have had little to do with Orangeism or Freemasonry (why select your own kith and kin to put them in harm’s way)? Although Huguenots were big into Freemasonry.

    The Watsons were right about the John Stamp (the mix of passengers on that ship was too slanted towards young fit men and not towards family units)? The other ships that Summer were just ordinary emigration ships.

    Duffy and duPont were co-dependent. There was big money to be made, more so by duPont than by Duffy for whom it was a one-off project (duPont’s explosives were no use in clearing land unless the rubble was cleared by the rabble)?

    It was dangerous work and in difficult terrain for inexperienced young men totally unused to explosives. This was no mass murder but a tragic and avoidable accident?

    The disaster would have meant ruin for duPont and he was the villain of the piece and architect of the cover-up as muh as Duffy?

    Any cholera victims would have been no more than the customary 15%, probably less as they had a source of clean running water in the stream?

    Deaths by a blast that went wrong would have been easily covered up and caused no remark amongst survivors?

    There are not fifty bodies under railway sleepers still to be dug up as the remainder of the work crew went home to Ireland as they had had enough?

    The weavers on the John Stamp went to the duPont linen mills in PA?

    DuPont and his descendants knew the true story and felt a burden of guilt over the whole tragic affair but could not be touched?

    It is easier to blame mysterious vanishing horsemen than Big Business and pillars of society?

    How’s that for a conspiracy theory? It might be at least as credible as Hibernophobic native Americans and mysterious vigilante horsemen?

    • Mary Cornell

      March 30, 2013 at 3:36 pm

      Your theory works as well as any others, in fact better than some. It hinges on one assumption being true and that is that these accidental deaths would have been the ruin of duPont. I don’t think so. These were harsh times with ruthless men at the helm. What’s a few deaths along the way? I doubt duPont or Duffy gave it a second thought. Bury the men and get on with it.

      This does beg the question. How were these men replaced? Was another ship in the harbor two months later with fresh young faces? The cut was finished on schedule or close to it. The time lost during this summer seems to be insignificant.

      Why weren’t there more Huguenots in the mix?

      Why were all of the men Catholic per the Watson’s assumption? More expendable in everyone’s mind?

      Were the wealthy elite ‘cleaning house’ in the north?

      Vigilante horsemen brings to mind the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

      • Waxwing

        March 30, 2013 at 4:18 pm

        Half the crew were Protestant by my reckoning so religion wasn’t a factor.

        Other Trivia (recapping Eileen’s earlier post)

        The DuPonts were big buddies of President Jefferson.
        The DuPonts helped to secure the Louisiana Purchase.
        Native Americans were shy of being slaughtered in their hundreds, on railroads and in mills, by DuPont and his black powder.
        DuPont on more than one occasion sent to Ireland for more cannon fodder to replace his slaughtered workers.
        He always played his card right. Not a bit squeamish about his workers being killed by his powder, he refused to sell it to Confederates, posing all the while as an arch-patriot.
        He was the main supplier of gunpowder to the American government.

        Not at all clear if DuPont had any direct association with Derry or was his name just on a billhead.

    • Mary Cornell

      March 30, 2013 at 4:40 pm

      Clarification. The men who died at Duffys Cut were said to be all Catholic by the Watsons. The ship did carry equal numbers of Protestant and Catholic. So why only Catholic to the cut? Is the Watsons contention of Catholic-only wrong?

      • Waxwing

        March 30, 2013 at 5:23 pm

        I asked Bill Watson that question and his feeble reply was that he had friends and colleagues with Protestant-sounding names who were Catholic, and he named two for good measure! I guess he did his usual and made two and two into five just because those emigrants were mostly from Donegal – what would you do with him!?

  24. Waxwing

    March 29, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    Beresford Lineage (Burke’s Peerage)

    John Bereford d.1475 m.Elizabeth Basset, Staffordshire, England.
    Thomas Beresford d. 1473
    Humphrey Beresford m. Margery Bardesley
    George Beresford m. Eleanor Greene. he was Steward of Nottingham, England.
    Michael Beresford d.1574 m. Rose Knevitt
    Tristram Beresford b. 1574. Manager for Corporation of London. Lived in Coleraine.
    Sir Tristram Beresford d.1673. Member of Parliament for Londonderry, Donegal and Tyrone 1656-66.
    Sir Randal Beresford MP for Coleraine d.1681 m. Catherine Annesley
    Sir Tristram Beresford MP for Londonderry, attainted by King James II (for being Protestant), m. Nicola Hamilton, d. 1701
    Marcus Beresford, 1st Earl of Tyrone, MP for Londonderry, b. 1694 d.1763 m. Catherine Power (Baroness de Paor).
    Rt Hon John dePaor Beresford, b.1737, m. Barbara Montgomery
    Henry Barre Beresford, b.1784 m. Elizabeth Baily, d. 1837
    John Barre Beresford,
    George Beresford, b. 1826 m. Anne Conyers
    Tristram Beresford b. 1851.

    The general impression of the Beresfords is of a family that has been in decline for the past two hundred years.

  25. Eileen Breen

    March 29, 2013 at 7:54 pm

    We need to come at this from several sources.

    I couldn’t find just one source of who owned the land. I disagree with you that McAfee’s site is not useful. It’s just one small part of the puzzle. Bill McAfee’s maps showed where all the clans were on native land, on church lands and on Crown land prior to the Plantation.

    He also lists the lands where H.I.S. estates are in County Derry listed by their individual livery companies. You also have to look at how the land was divided during the Plantation and what their requirements were: English vs. Scottish; Principal Land Owners (called Undertakers).

    Private investors were the Scottish Undertakers and businessmen who invested in the Plantation and who were English. The Scottish land owners had under three thousand acres and the English had four thousand acres. Other interest groups, Scottish and English, were Servitors, Livery Companies and the Church Of Ireland. The map of the Scottish Planters and Servitors also showed who had large estates of two thousand acres, 1500 acres and one thousand acres or less.

    That’s why I started the Beresfords tree because we also need to see where the Crown lands were. The McAfree map also shows some of the Crown lands. Tithe books would probably assist in finding native land owners who were given land if they pledged their loyalty to the Crown. Those that didn’t may have rented and I’m not sure of that source.

  26. Eileen Breen

    March 27, 2013 at 11:28 pm

    I started a Beresford tree on Ancestry as there are a lot of people researching them.

    1861-2 Griffith’s Valuation: William Beresford, Dongore, Antrim; James Beresford, Rathbeg, Dongore, Antrim; Isabella Beresford, Tobergill, Dongore, Antrim.

    PRONI 10/3/1898 : James Beresford, aged 60, widow, Dongore. A Tombstone of 1810 listed a John Beresford and brother, Andrew, at St. John’s Church, Dongore, Antrim. Some of our names could be from here.

    Of the other ships we are looking at, one I think had place names. I remember Limavady, New Buildings and townlands around there. These are H.I.S. lands. How did the Crown get freeholds? I understand Native freeholds were there before the Plantation but the Crown was there after it?

  27. Eileen Breen

    March 27, 2013 at 5:03 pm

    I found some Seamen’s Certificates for a John Beresford Young, Master of the John Stamp and related to Corscaden. Corscadens and Beresfords were also related by marriage so Young must also have been related to the Beresfords. John Watt, Master of the Creole, may also been related to Corscaden. The Watts were grocers, wine merchants and distillers in the 1829 directory.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 27, 2013 at 5:28 pm

      The Beresfords and Hamiltons managed the Fishmongers’ Estate in the Manor Of Walworth. Barre Beresford made improvements and the land was taken back by the Fishmongers Company in 1820.

      Tristim Beresford was Agent for the Harberdashers’ Estate in the Manor Of Freemore and Randell Beresford controlled it. R. McClelland brought people from Scotland to settle this estate. The Merchant Tailors owned the Manor Of St John The Baptist and the Agent was Michael Beresford.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 27, 2013 at 6:32 pm

      I think the estates we need to look at are those managed by the Beresford Family. James Corscaden is related by marriage and the name Canning is from 1614 on the Ironmongers’ estate. Canning and Corscaden are related by marriage. The H.I.S. intermarried to keep everything in the family, from Ship masters to connections in business. The estates are the Marquis of Waterford’s Estate, the Ironmonger’s Estate in Castleagivey, the Merchant Taylor’s Estate, the Manor of St John the Baptist. R.McClelland leased lands on the Clothworkers’ estate in Articlave and the Haberdashers’ Estate in Ballykelly. I put up the map from Bill’s site on James Corscaden’s profile on Ancestry.

  28. Eileen Breen

    March 27, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    In the 1600s county lands in Derry, allocated to the Church and some native families, were called Native Freeholds. Four that are listed were O’Cahan’s, in Tirkeeran, Keenaught, Coleraine; O’Mullan’s, in Tirkeeran and Keenaught;McGilligan’s, in Ballycarton in Magilligan and Boveedy near Kilrea; and McCowell’s in Boveedy. There were no Native Freeholds in Loughinsholin belonging to the O’Neills. All these properties were in the old county of Coleraine.

    In the 1654 Civil Survey only a few of these Native Freeholders remained and the land was sold to spectators. One of these was Beresford who was connected to James Corscaden by marriage. He was one of the most successful managers of several properties and he is mentioned in H.I.S. minute meetings in 1829-32.

    Two private estates were owned by Sir Thomas Phillips, a servitor in Limavady and Mayola. Later this land was bought by the Connollys. The Connollys also purchased a Vintner estate in Bellaghy and Mayola. This property was later owned by Dawsons who named the area Castledawson.

    I was thinking we could use this map and information from the Bill McAfee Treasury site and put in the names from the ships according to these lands owned by H.I.S. Companies.

    On another subject, H.I.S. Corporation Minute books from 1829-32 refer to Stamp Fees. Freemasons were named in the minutes and they were required to pay a Stamp Fee to make it legal and to enter themselves as members of the Freemason Lodge. The minutes also invited Beresford to participate in the meeting. John Mitchell McClelland, son of Carey McClelland, was recommended for membership as a Freemason. Also mentioned is someone completing their term as an apprentice and recommending him to be a freemason. A McCorkell was also mentioned in the minutes. A note on the bottom of the page speaks about ‘Those admitted as Freemen of the city’.

    The committee asked for the names to be entered in order of those who received The Freedom. They were to be admitted in order, admitted by birth, service, marriage or ‘established by Grace’. In order to enter as a Freemason, you could inherit it, be given an honorary membership like Winston Churchill or if you were an Apprentice to the H.I.S. you could work to earn the membership.

  29. Mary Cornell

    March 25, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    Not to take away from the mastery of the flute playing, the song sounds much better on the fiddle. The nuances are more apparent.

    A few years ago, I saw an interview that James Galway gave in which he said that even though he grew up in Belfast, the strife between the Protestants and Catholics was not really a part of his life. If he was a member of an Orange band, there were some leanings present in his life.

  30. Eileen Breen

    March 25, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    I think we need to look at H.I.S. lands and who the leasers were, then see if they appeared on any ship manifests as cosignitories, like R. McClelland. There may be connections from Sir Robert McClelland to C.I. duPont in Willmington, DE.

  31. Eileen Breen

    March 25, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    Mary, the two articles were great. It would be interesting to understand under what conditions the Masons acquired their land.

    I heard of the tune the Mason’s Apron but I never knew the history. I’ll have to listen to both versions.

  32. Eileen Breen

    March 25, 2013 at 1:37 am

    Victor duPont had a long history of encouraging emigration to Wilmington, Delaware. He gave money to families to bring everyone over, offering free housing and gardens so they would owe their loyalty to him and his munitions and chemicals factories. duPont was Protestant. He built a children’s hospital and he supported St. John the Baptist church, both are signs he may have been a Mason.

    Masons supported children’s charities and their patron saint was St. John the Baptist. The Masons’ or H.I.S. lands, the manor of St John’s, were above the Grocers’ lands on the east coast of Inishowen. The name Worshipful seen on Tithe Applottment Books meant honorable for H.I.S.

    I think we need to look at Wilmington, Delaware for our John Stamp folks. FFT: If Peggy McKendrick paid for Samuel Doherty, how come they didn’t go back to Victor or Charles I. duPont when George Doherty from Donegal went missing?

    • Mary Cornell

      March 26, 2013 at 4:16 pm

      I noticed that most of the correspondence between Taylor and duPont that included James Corscaden were in 1832. Corscaden possibly the recruiter for duPont in 1832?

  33. Eileen Breen

    March 22, 2013 at 4:04 pm


    Tristam, Thomas and Michael Beresford, Nicholas Elcock, Paul and George Canning, David Babington.

    Some very prominent people leased this land and the small farmers were also part of these estates. McCorkell had the cross channel trade with his seven ships from Derry to England. Maybe the small farmers from his estates went to England to pick the harvest every year for seasonal work. Like migrant farmers they would follow the harvest and in the winter returned home. In 1832 there was a famine so maybe there was nothing to pick that year so they decided to go on the ships owned by H.I.S. and their landlords.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 22, 2013 at 4:40 pm

      The migrant workers could have been hired by H.I.S. to work their estates in and around Londonderry. A few of these estates were near each other outside Limavady and in Muff. When my mom was fourteen she and her brothers worked tobacco. A truck came to the city and all the kids met the truck. Then they went up north to the tobacco fields.

      Corscaden was a grain manufacturer in Muff. The clothworkers and haberdashers had their estates in Artikelly and Articlave. Perhaps flax was grown there. In one of the directories I saw someone who was in flax. The John Stamp went down with raw cotton. So perhaps the younger workers worked locally and didn’t have to cross the Channel. If the middle aged ones did then maybe the H.I.S. paid the 2lb a head and hired a boat so workers could work H.I.S. lands in London.

      The eldest workers worked the land on the estate or were weavers or farmers. It was four pounds to go to St John’s – the Manor of St John the Baptist, an H.I.S. colony then. It was seven pounds to go to America. So maybe a younger person contributed to his parent’s rent but didn’t have to pay the whole amount. Then after a few years money that was saved paid for a passage. If he worked in America the emigrant could get enough to send for the rest of the family. Are there any farm records for Muff etc?

    • londonderry

      March 23, 2013 at 2:14 pm

      I found this website quite interesting. Deep in the pages are some interesting historical things that I have not seen before – like the origin of ‘undertaker’. I am enjoying the research of all three of you. BTW, I have always wondered if my 6Grandfather, John Barnett was a Derry Boy. He was born in 1678 in Derry so he might have been on the young side e.g. 12-13. Keep up the research on your project. There may be more than one book here! When do you guys sleep?

      • Mary Cornell

        March 23, 2013 at 6:31 pm

        Hi, Vic

        🙂 Its the different time zones. Gives the impression that we never sleep. We actually sleep in shifts so someone is awake at all times. 😀

    • Mary Cornell

      March 23, 2013 at 3:14 pm

      I have not finished reading the article yet, but the Orange Order seems to be picking and choosing which parts of the Bible are ‘correct’ and using them to advance their way of thinking. Those beliefs spew hatred and intolerance toward anything not of their liking. Even though the earlier Orange spoke of never showing impolite behavior toward Catholic brethren, the tenets of the Order would seem to make that an impossible task.

      They are similar to the American evangelical Christians. Neither one bears any resemblance to the teachings of Christ.

    • Mary Cornell

      March 23, 2013 at 8:37 pm

      I am not exactly sure where my ancestors would have been in all of this. In the States they were Methodist Episcopal from the early 1800s forward. I do not know what they would have been in seventeenth century Ireland. Certainly not Methodist as it was before John Wesley. Coming from England, Episcopal maybe, or Church of England/Ireland. Or were they all one and the same?

      Quick insights into my ancestors – my great grandfather once tried to start a church so that he would not have to pay taxes. It was called something like the Free Libertarians. My great-great-grandfather dropped the W in Cornwell in order to avoid the draft during the Civil War. His brother went to jail for being a horse thief. During the uprisings, they were most likely selling poteen on the road to or from the battle.

      • Waxwing

        March 23, 2013 at 10:58 pm

        Just to recap the main points of Mary’s earlier research as it related to her ancestors in the late 1600s into the 1700s (dangerous times indeed) in Northern Ireland:

        A Cornwall was attainted by King James II and Parliament in 1689. The family most likely came earlier than that from Hertfordshire in England and they came to Ireland where they built or were otherwise associated with the Blackwater Fort in Armagh/Tyrone in 1575. It was there that articles of peace were signed with Turlough O’Neil, one of the main chieftains of Ireland. Through the line of Edward Cornwall who died before 6 March 1676 (named in the Hearth Money Roll of 1664) and Mary Mitchell of Annagry in Donegal, their four children included:

        1. John Cornwall, of Cornwalls Grove in Newmills, three miles outside Dungannon, who married Barbara Lindsay (daughter of Dr. Alex Lindsay – second son of Robert Lindsay of Loughrey in Armagh – killed in the Siege of Derry).
        2. Barbara, born 1674, buried 13 February 1747, of Newmills and probably Presbyterian.
        3. John, born 1666, died 22 March 1731, who had eight children.

        The impression is that the Cornells (Cornwells) moved in high circles. Like most courtiers, they may have fallen foul of the ruling elite at the time. If they owned Blackwater Fort, they were skating on very thin ice indeed.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 24, 2013 at 5:36 am

        I had forgotten about Blackwater Fort. I remember that we decided that the word was probably attainded, not attained. And that John Cornwall was sent to Ireland as punishment. John Cornwall was Constable of the fort during the 1570s. He was in charge of a very small guard. He was also a very bad caretaker of the fort. His removal was requested because of the deplorable condition of Blackwater. He remained for several more years until it is noted that there was a new Constable in place in 1583. Edward Cornwall later became Constable and was arrested for turning Blackwater over to the enemy. It was brought forward in his defense that he could not be held entirely responsible due to the condition of the fort.

        I do not know if they were moving among the elite, but they surely seemed to fall foul both in England and in Ireland.,+Blackwater+Fort&output=html_text

      • Waxwing

        March 24, 2013 at 7:56 am

        It all hinges on the word ‘attainder’.

        A thorough definition and explanation of the legal term can be found at:

        Anyone to whom the term applies has to have moved in high circles and in this case he came to the attention of the ruling monarch. That coupled with the Blackwater Fort connection clinches it for me.

        The name Cornell (a variation of Cornwall) is from the South West of England. Cornish people are P-Celts, just like their Welsh and Breton cousins across the Channels, and linked to the Q-Celt Irish and Scots. According to Oppenheimer, all Atlantic Celts came from the the Pyreness after the Ice Age but the P-Celts didn’t make it across the Irish Sea. There were strong sympathies for the Jacobite cause in Cornwall and minor uprisings there as well. Who knows what side of the fence these early Cornells sat on?

        As an aside, the hated Sir Charles Trevelyan who is usually held directly responsible for the millions of deaths of Irish people in the Great Famine, also was from Cornwall and appears to have had little sympathy for the plight of his fellow Celts. It’s a wonder that native Irish don’t burn his effigy, much as so-called Loyalists do with Lundy.

  34. Eileen Breen

    March 22, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Perhaps our farmers went across the channel to work for the harvest for a season or two before getting the money to make the transatlantic passage. On the estates of the Livery companies they were managed by various agents of the H.I.S. It wasn’t until the Wyndam Act Of 1903 that those farmers living on those estates were allowed to purchase their farms.One of the most successful agents was the Beresford family. He managed a few of the H.I.S. estates. On Bill McAfree’s site he has an in depth article on who managed the estates and who the agents were as well as the rents. I sent you a copy.
    Beresford’s, Tristam (agent) and Randall Controlled the estate: (Haberdasher’s (Manor of Freemore). James Corscaden was connected by marriage. Corscaden’s daughter married Sir Robert Maxwell. Early on Sir Robert McClelland leased the estate and later the Marquis of Waterford the estate ranged over various parts of Ireland. Sir Robert McClelland from Scotland had a Ballycastle at Aghanloo and John Cooke of the shipping co leased property in 5 townlands. (One our names we looked up from J.S. came from Aghanloo. I think the J.S. passengers came off these estate’s)

    Ironmonger’s (Manor Of Lizard) in 1842 12,686 acres. in 1614 George Canning was an agent at Castleagivey. Beresfords ran the estate. Paul Canning also leased the estate and others. Corscaden’s son’s middle name was Canning. Wyndam Passage act allowed tenants to purchase their farms in 1903.

    Mercer’s (Manor Of mercer’s 1740 they talked about the effects of emigration on their estate. Leased by: Wilson, Hill, Marquess of Londonderry and Viscount Castlereagh. Wyndam Passage act 1903 allowed these tenants to purchased their land in 1903.

    Merchant Taylors (Manor of St John Baptist): Michael Beresford agent. There are a few trees on ancestry I linked to that are doing the Beresford genealogy). Maybe they ended up in St John’s New Brunswick, canada one of the H.I.S. Colonies?

    Draper’s (Manor Of Drapers): In Moneymore and Draperstown. Tenants bought farms in 1903 as result of the Wyndam Land Purchase Act.

    Fishmonger’s (Manor Of Walworth): Also managed by Hamilton, Beresford families. Barre Beresford made improvements. Co. of Fishmongers repossessed the estate in 1820. The portion of the estate in Ballykelly also was improved. Agents: Sampson and Gage. Tenants bought their farms in 1903 by the Wyndam Land Purchase Act.

    Goldsmith’s (Manor Of Goldsmith’s Hall): 1850 the estate was sold in the Encumbered Estate’s Court. The Alexander’s John and Alexander had this estate heavy in debt.

    Manor of Grocer’s (Grocer’s) 1805 David Babington was Lawyer and agent tried to lease it but failed to get control of the land in 1822. The land was improved in Muff later renamed Elington. The rents were decreased 20-25%. In 1838 it was the best managed estates of the H.I.S. The Templemoyle Agricultural School now is on the property. In 1870 they tried to dispose of the land. In 20th century the farmers own their land and pay a fixed annuity yearly to the Land Commission instead of rent. I think Corscaden is associated w/ this estate. He came from Muff and he and his father were grocer’s / distiller’s).

    Clothworker’s (Manor Of Clothworker’s: Agent Nicholas Elcock. Sir Robert McClelland in 1618 held the lease 51 years from the Clothworker’s. (I think R. McClelland is our Robert McClelland from this (estate and Haberdasher’s estate.) The estate was in Articlave. It bordered the Habadasher’s estate in Artikelly. McClelland brought people over from his Scotland estates to settle here. Early 1800’s the Jackson family had the estate. (This estate is near Antrim (President Andrew Jackson and the McQuillin family are supposed to be connected and from this area perhaps this is where they came from.) In 1840 surveyed and improved the land. in 1871 Sir Hervey Bruce and later Sir Fredrick Hervey, Bishop of Derry had this estate. The estate is part of the Downhill Estate. You can see photos of it on line. I think I also sent a photo. You can visit the estate. I have seen postcards of this estate.

  35. Eileen Breen

    March 20, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    Thanks for the tip!

    1848 Tithe Applottment
    Clooney, Clondermot, East Ward, Parish Of templemore (Londonderry). Business: Cary McClelland – I think R. McClelland is a typo. It’s C. McClelland (Cosignitory John Stamp). He and two family members are also in H.I.S. Minutes. Property is listed as: store, offices and yard. The Lessor was John Mehan H.I.S. Nearby to this property is Distillery Rd, Coleraine Railroad and another neighbor selling grain.

    James Corscaden sold grain and his father and cousins (Youngs and Watts also were distillers, grocers and spirit dealers). The grain was shipped on Coleraine Railroad to the distillery for making alcohol for their business. Young(John Stamp) and Watts (Creole) were masters and cousins of James Corscaden on the two ships. James Corscaden was from Muff and there was a Joseph McClelland in Muff (Grocer) but not sure if he was related.

    I put the 1848 Tithe record under Cary McClelland in the John Stamp tree and I’m thinking we should start a tree for Known Associates:J.S.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 21, 2013 at 3:10 am

      The 1839 Londonderry Directory was organized by trades.

      Corscaden: US Consul, ship owner, window and glass importer.
      Hugh Corscaden 1830 Tithe: Clooney, Donegal
      James Corscaden; Gortaward, Donegal

      I saw the name Bersford on the estates of the Honorable Irish Society. Isabel Witherington Seckham married James Corscaden’s son William. She is part of this estate. That listing of the estates goes back to the Plantation in the H.I.S.

      James Mehan, who was the lessor for James Corscaden in Clooney in the 1839 New Directory City of londonderry owned: Clooney Mills, was a Brewer. Corscaden was the grain dealer and Mehan (Ecclesiastical Commoner, H.I.S.) made the alcohol.

      Anthony and Margaret Doak, Society St, Millners. Perhaps the H.I.S. recruited relatives of the H.I.S. to go to Philadelphia as the H.I.S. had business in both places and regularly went to Philadelphia. A lot of last names that are on the manifest for the John Stamp are also on this directory and 1852 directory. Maybe they cut the relatives a good deal!

      Ewing, the Mayor in 1852, was a card maker (Also a H.I.S. co) for wool and tow.

      John Munn, ship owner and part of the ones that bought Marcus Hill, was a grain merchant and flax spinner.

      Sam Baird, also part of the group, was a grocer.

      Rebecca Watt (cousin?) Corscaden was a millner in Butcher Street.

      John Cooke, ship owner and Timber merchant in 1852 with brother Joseph, was an iron founder of John Cooke and Co. and also a Copper and Tin Smith (without his brother). who also bought Marcus Hill.

      James McCrea Law on Foyle Street (part of the syndicate) “Corporation” bought Marcus Hill.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 21, 2013 at 6:54 pm

      I read the H.I.S. were Masons. There’s a lot of numerology and symbolism. I think they have seven basic principles. They designed Londonderry to be a symbol of London. The Guildhall is the symbol of the Masons: A setting sun with seven rays coming from it representing the seven principles. There are seven gates radiating from the Wall Of Derry that they built with seven streets. Each street houses all fifty Livery Companies. the Livery Companies drew a lot during the Plantation to which estates they would receive. Each of the fifty estates represents a livery company.

      The main goals of the H.I.S. was to live by the code or seven principles of the Masons. One of them is benevolence. They aided children’s charities, the poor and built schools and charities. The Ecclesiastical Commoners may represent the Anglican Church but also the Masons. You said the McCorkells were probably not members of the church but they could have been Masons. duPont is a name that sticks out from the rest and it. doesn’t seem to fit in but he may have been a Mason. The H.I.S. worked with the Hibernians, perhaps this was part of their charity work. Perhaps Duffy, duPont, McCorkle and Corscaden met in Philadelphia through the Masons. They may have also been Hibernians and there was a local chapter in Philadelphia.

      They heard about Duffy’s Cut and they vowed to remember them. The symbol on Londonderry’s crest is a skeleton. The secret society that most of the U.S. Presidents belonged to was the Bones Club, a secret society from Yale University. Many US Presidents went to Yale. The main goal of the H.I.S. was to colonize and create a self-sustaining city in the image of the Masons and the H.I.S. and London. They colonized Jamestown, VA, and two other VA colonies, Boston, MA, Philadelphia and St John’s New Brunswick, Canada.

      I bet their cities were set up with the capital being the sun and seven streets representing the seven Mason principles. Washington,D.C is also set up this way. The Statue Of Liberty has multiple Mason symbols, our dollar bill also. US has fifty states and H.I.S. has fifty estates. I’m not sure what fifty means to the Masons. The “stamp” is the Assurance of their allegiance of the H.I.S. to the King Of England. The stamp is the legalization of any paperwork to go before the “Corporation” through the court system, thus the King. Once they charged a tax (allegiance/assurance to the King) and the fee was paid the documents became legal in the eyes of the King. Since there is no separation between Church and State the H.I.S. was also equally represented in Church and State matters and I’m assuming the Masons. Need to find evidence to support this.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 21, 2013 at 8:30 pm

      The Honourable Irish Society and the Freemasons:

      Three principles that are the foundation of the Freemasons: 1. Brotherly Love (Philadelphia is the City Of Brotherly Love.) Its members show compassion, understanding and respect the opinions of others. 2. Relief: Charity towards others. 3. Truth: They have high Moral Standards.

      The seven Principles Of Freemasonry:
      The Guild hall is the setting sun and the seven streets radiating from it are a symbol of the Freemasons. Each street represents the seven principles: 1. High Moral code: Decency, Conviction, charity. 2. Charity: Welfare and Happiness. 3. Education 4. Religious not Religion: to have faith is a basic principle of all religions. Religion not discussed. 5. Social responsibility:Truth/Justice, fraternity, philanthropy, orderly and civil, religious and intellectual liberty, loyal to the Government. 6.Non-Political 7. Equality Among Members. From the book: Principles of Freemasons For Dummies.

      The Royal Arches

      From the Royal Arch Degree: The Boundaries of Freemasonry: a quote from Deuteronomy 19:14 about not moving landmarks set by their ancestors and their heritage of receiving the land that their God gave to them. The landmarks may be the Wall of Londonderry and the land they inherited is the land from the Plantation which the fifty livery companies each have an estate.

      Under Home Rule 1898:
      The path of order was debated. The RC in Ireland (Hibernians) who wanted Home Rule thus the separation of church and state and the Protestants who were Unionists (Freemasons and H.I.S.) wanted the Anglican Church and Government to rule Ireland and to keep Ireland, Scotland and England under the control of the Crown. The Unionists feared the RC pope and its politics would have its influence over Ireland.

      Freemason’s of London, England. Debate In The House Of Commons

      The H.I.S. worked with the Hibernians in their charity work. In the debate the Government feared these two groups could be secret and sectarian and they forbade its police force from participating in any secret society except the Freemasons.

  36. Eileen Breen

    March 20, 2013 at 2:55 am

    This is just an observation:

    The Honourable Irish Society (Protestant) on orders from London were to build a new city in the North of Ireland and call it London. Later the name was changed to Londonderry after the oak groves that once stood there. They built the wall of Londonderry with seven gates. They paid homage to themselves and they built the Guildhall. It represented the fifty Londonderry Companies called Honorable Irish Society. They were the government and when they needed more space they opened up more office space down the seven streets off the wall. Their homes were in the periphery near the Foyle so they could look at their ships. The Catholics and others lived in surrounding communities such as Donegal and outer County Derry. When the famine came in 1831 a slow trickle of emigration started. By the Great Famine the emigration trail to Londonderry City was a major emigration route to the shipping agents who were building, buying, selling ships, transporting commodities and selling tickets to the New World ships.

  37. Eileen Breen

    March 20, 2013 at 2:04 am

    From 1852 Provincial Directory for Londonderry

    Cary McClelland: Grain Merchant, Bleacher on Foyle St.
    James McClelland Grocer, Oil And Colour Merchant (paint), Diamond.
    Matthew McClelland Builder, architect Garnkirk Coal Co., Orchard St.

    The three McClellands appeared in the Honorable Irish Society’s minutes. They didn’t hold offices in the town government in 1852. None of these were R. McClelland but maybe he belongs to them.

    I was thinking the John Stamp might have been a J. and J. Cooke ship. The Cookes were in the H.I.S. I wonder if John comes from John Cooke and ‘Stamp’ comes from their job. Justice Of the Peace or, if they represented the Salters, they were responsible for Weights and Measures – making sure scales were correct, collecting licences, munitions (duPont had many ships carried munitions to PA). Were the ships duPont used from J. and J. Shipping Lines?

    The Honorable Irish Society was the town government for Derry and it represented fifty livery companies. Our syndicate represented the top twelve Liver Companies and the Mayor was Joseph Ewing M.D. HIS had Members of the Court, a Governor, a Deputy Governor, an Immediate Parting Governor, a Recorder, Aldermen (5) and Commoners (18). Aldermen and councillors represented North ward, East ward and South ward; Other offices were under this.

  38. Eileen Breen

    March 19, 2013 at 11:16 pm

    I believe that the twelve Great Livery Companies/Honorable Irish Society/London Companies of which our men were members funded the John Stamp. From the 1832 minutes, Robert McClelland and two family members were in the minutes. R. McClelland whom Mary found was a cosignatory.

    Also the Grocers were from Muff, including James Corscaden. The Youngs were probably related and all listed in the 1852 Londonderry Provincial Directory. Joseph Young was not not found but the Youngs were e general merchants, grocers and spirit dealers (vintners). John Young, master, was also not found but he may have been related. Also Jamestown and two other settlements were funded by the Honorable Irish Society. It’s the 400th year Anniversary of their society.

  39. Eileen Breen

    March 18, 2013 at 3:17 pm

    In the 1600s, of three brothers from the McCorkell family, one went to Philadelphia, PA, one went to Londonderry (The shipping McCorkells) and one they lost sight of. The McCorkells settled and named the towns in PA: Raphoe, Derry, Donegal and others. They considered themselves Irish according to the the article ‘Some Prominent Friends Of Pennsylvania’. They had Donegal roots as well. On the John Stamp ad just above it is an ad for the ship ‘Clansman’. McCorkell Company and a Richard Corscaden are named as James Corscaden and Co.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 18, 2013 at 9:09 pm

      1852 Provincial Directory, the Who’s Who of the McCorkell and Corscaden Associates in County Londonderry: Londonderry, Lisburn, Charlemont and Lurgan.

      Barry McCorkell inherited the McCorkell Shipping Line from his father and he owned two ships and J. and J. Shipping Lines and Businessman John Kelso owned five ships. These were passenger ships that used sail. The McCorkells tried to stay current and when J. and J. went out of business they owned eight ships: Village Bell (1863-1888), Lady Emily Peel (1864-67), Stadagona (1863-1875), Minehaha (1860-1895) and the Mohongo (1851-1872).

      There was a syndicate of merchant owners who bought the ship Marcus Hill. This led the way for these owners to establish shipping business on their own. J.J. owned five, McCorkell owned two and the associates owned the rest. In the Provincial Directory you can see where they were located on Williams St, Shipquay St, Queen St, Foyle St and Main St. The associates were involved in the shipping business, held government offices, insurance companies for the ships, were of nobility and gentry and were in the spirit dealing, grocery and distillery business.

      I think Master Young from the John Stamp was from this family. It said that on the Creole (from another source), the Master was Watt. In Londonderry the Watts were distillers: Watt and Company, Spirit Store, Shipquay St, Distillary, Abby St. I think Watt and Robert Corscaden may be related? Robert Corscaden was James Corscaden’s father. He was a Spirit Dealer on Shipquay St.

      I’ll try to make a list of what and who was on Shipquay St later. There was a W. and L. Young that were spirit dealers and grocers on Market Square, also listed in Lisburn under the Traders’ section. There was a Francis Young, a grocer in Charlemont, S. and W. Young who were publicans and grocers on Main St. Young is listed in Lurgan so maybe Robert Corscaden, Watt family and Young family were businessman who were related in some way.

      Two McClellands are listed, a James and a Matthew, but I couldn’t find a Robert McClelland. James was a merchant at the Diamond and Matthew was a builder and Architect General Garnkirk Coal Co on Orchard St. More later about the others.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 18, 2013 at 11:46 pm

        From 1852 Provincial Directory

        Associates who purchased the ship, Marcus Hill (the first ship that was made, provisioned and sailed out of Derry in many years), were James Corscaden, Barry McCorkle, James McCrea, Daniel Baird, John Munn, William Buchanan, Joseph Young and Dr John Kelso. Their occupations were ship owners, spirit dealers, grocers, publicans, assurance agents, shipping agents, masters of ships, lawyers, gentlemen, physician, government official, court magistrates and secretary of the library.

        These guys had it all figured out!

        James Corscadden b. 1808 in Muff, Donegal married ‘Fanny’ Francis Gallagher b Ballyarnet, Donegal near Burtonport, Donegal. They had five sons and two daughters. He was a grain merchant on Shipquay Street after the emigration trade decreased, so he and Barry McCorkell began importing grain. Also known as an associate was Stuart Christie, brother-in-law, who with Munn owned the Royal William. They sold it and purchased the Charlotte Douglas, Creole, Erin and Sarah Sands. The master was a cousin, Captain Thompson.

        Also from the 1852 Directory:
        The Northern Fire and Life and the Caledonian Life Assurance offices were located on Shipquay Place, Londonderry, the next street over. Also, he was Consul for Foreign Affairs to the U.S. in Londonderry in 1854-56, 1857-8 and 1861-2 and Town Councillor for North Ward, Londonderry. His son Robert married Annette “Minnie” McCorkell (1857-1895) – the family married into the McCorkell family a few times.

        Barry McCorkle inherited the McCorkell shipping Line from his father. Of the seven ships he owned, five were lost to shipwreck. Between 1864-1871 there were thirty sailings; between 1863-1874 there were 45 sailings; and there were multiple sailings between 1873-1889. The glory days of the shipping business ended in 1895 with the loss of emigration and the wrecks of five of the seven ships he owned.

        McCorkells were also associated with Victor duPont who manufactured Eagle cannon munitions which they shipped regularly to Boston and Philadelphia. Munitions were transported on a number of McCorkell Ships with various masters. The duPont factory in Londonderry had two fires that injured a few workers and nearly destroyed their munitions business. There was also a fire on one of the boats that was carry supplies that spilt on board the ship and almost set the munitions on fire.

        On-line there are duPont letters and a book about the duPont family. I sent you all the link to the book. Many members of their business in U.S. helped the duPont family immigrate to U.S. after the two explosions in their munitions factory. They also talked about the ships that would come down their river in Philadelphia. So they may have owned land in Philadelphia and they had an office on Pine St, Philadelphia. Phillip Duffy also lived on Pine St.

        J. and J. Shipping was owned by Joseph and John Cooke who were also Timber Merchants in Strand St, Londonderry. They wned five ships during this time but they also had many more – for a listing, go under the Ships of the J. and J. Shipping Line . They were the leading shipping industry until the McCorkell shipping line began. They may have owned some of them with Dr John Kelso who according to the 1852 Provincial Directory of Derry was a surgeon and apothecary. he is listed under the Nobility and Gentry Section of the Directory and he was located in the Market Square section of the city. Dr Kelso was a member of the literary Society and he held the position as Secretary.

        J. and J. Shipping Lines had multiple Atlantic Crossings from Londonderry to Philadelphia,U.S., St John’s, New Brunswick, Canada and Louisiana. U.S. records on-line can be found from 1836, 1847-1855. Ships that left Ireland to Philadelphia were Envoy (1849,1850), Superior (1847, 1850, 1853), Sarah Schaffe (1836), Hartford (1847), Heshell (1847), Montpeliar (1847), Alleghany (1847), Mary Stewart 91847), Garland (1848), 1849), Barbara (1850) and multiple other ships. 25 Crossings are listed.

        Other Parties were:
        James McCrea: General Merchant, Foyle St
        Daniel Baird: General Merchant, Ship Owner, Court Magistrate.
        John Munn: City Spinning Mills, Queen St, Agent Steam Packets, Londonderry.
        William Buchanan: Borough Magistrate, Londonderry.
        Charles Young: General merchant, Foyle St
        Thomas Young: Coach Factory on Foyle St

      • Eileen Breen

        March 19, 2013 at 12:54 pm

        You both also find awesome articles and present a lot of great ideas!

        When I looked at the 1852 Londonderry Directory I was puzzled why a bunch of ship owners would want a pharmacist. I thought he couldn’t make so much money to buy a ship. Then this theory came to me:

        The Syndicate of known associates that bought the ship Marcus Hill all represent one of the top twelve Livery Companies that are in the Honorable Irish Society that comprised land owners and merchants in Derry who donated money for charities? There may have been one member of the group who was the syndicate’s leader, probably the company that was the most successful financially which would have been McCorkell? Many of the associates had offices on Shipquay St, Queen St, Williams St and Strand St – all in the same area (see Ancestry google map).

        Some of the top companies were the Mercers which were traders in textiles called Mercery and the John Stamp was transporting raw cotton when it sank in 1839. James Corscaden, if he was the shipping agent, could have been a head of this company.
        The Worshipful Company Of Salters promoted the use of salt in the preparation of food and chemicals. The Vintners Company originally setled in Derry in the 1700s to sell wine without a license and they wanted a monopoly to import wine. Corscaden and his father were spirit dealers.The Grocers Company regulated the rarity of spices, setting the weights and measurement to pharmacist (Dr Kelso). Pharmacies also bought saltpetre for medicinal use.

        Two other choices perhaps for head of the association could have been duPont, who owned a munitions factory that made cannonballs and that sold saltpetre to local stores in Philadelphia, and who also had a huge fleet of ships transporting gunpowder from Derry to Boston and Philadelphia; or Dr John Kelso who was the surgeon and apothecary.

  40. Eileen Breen

    March 16, 2013 at 11:33 am

    I saw a George Corscaden when I was looking at records. I’ll have to look at it again. In newer records from the 1900s I saw the Corscadens on Shankhill Road in Belfast attached to a name from a family tree. We saw that road on the trip on the way into the center of Belfast when the driver pointed it out. I also saw in thebphone book page several Corscadens in Belfast. Perhaps John Young and R. MacClelland worked for Corscadden and Co., the McCorkell Line or maybe were embers of the Honorable Irish Society.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 17, 2013 at 1:42 pm

      I put up an advertisement on Ancestry under James Corscaden and a notice from the Belfast Newsletter that the John Stamp arrived and noted that it wrecked. I saw the notice in the Belfast Newsletter but I couldn’t find the ad for the J.S. leaving. Ancestry only put up four pages and I looked through the month of March and I couldn’t find it. The ad came from the Facebook page for Duffy’s Cut. Title Films had found it. If the Belfast Newsletter reporting it I wonder if Corscaden also used the Belfast port. I saw the ship the Erin in Belfast Port – Corscaden has this name as one of his ships – but maybe another shipping line used the name. I didn’t see any of his other ships in the advertisements.

  41. Waxwing

    March 16, 2013 at 8:25 am

    Tony Blair’s mum was Hazel Corscadden from Ballyshannon which is in South West Donegal

  42. Eileen Breen

    March 13, 2013 at 8:46 pm

    Robert MacClellan(d) was a cosignatory of a loan to stock the John Stamp from Londonderry to Quebec. I read it took $3000 to fund the cost of a ship. MacClelland was part of the Harberdashers, one of the twelve London Companies that funded the Plantation Of Ulster. He and his sons were in the Harberdashers and Clothing Manufacturer’s Companies in 1800s. They had a thread and cotton manufacturing company in Banbridge. The Harberdasher’s and Cotton Manufacturer’s are still in existence. I wrote to them to see if they know anything but I haven’t heard yet or if we have the correct person. As Mary said his name was on several ships: Barque John Stamp, Brig John, Victoria, England and Jupiter. The Master was John Young who probably received fifty acres of land in Philadelphia for each head brought to Philadelphia. After he collected a sizable sum he sold the land for money then was off to his new adventure and the passengers were off serving 7-14 years as an indentured servant. Although 1832 was late for the period Indentured Service still may have existed. Philadelphia was first to abandon it for the paid workers and looked to the fresh new class of workers from Europe that funded their own passage to North America. Or families in America sent money to Ireland to help fund the passage. If we can find John Young as land owner in Philadelphia or surrounding farmland that would be a good find. I would like to find the agent and the ship owner of the John Stamp. I also would like to find which London Companies owned land in Derry and Donegal and maybe match them to cosignatories on the ships leaving the Derry Port to Philadelphia or elsewhere.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 14, 2013 at 7:31 pm

      The John Stamp, a 401 ton Newcastle barque was according to the Watson’s book owned by James Corscaden and Company. Passengers wanting passage on thebJ.S. were asked to apply to him between April 7- April 13, 1832 at 26 Shipquay St, Londonderry, Ireland.

      Shipquay St. is near Guild Hall where all offices representing the trades and the London Companies were to be found. Corscadden was as a shipping agent who owned several ships himself. He married into the McCorkell family of the McCorkell Line that ran from Ireland to Englandnwho were major ship owners. He had several joint ventures with J and J Cooke and John Munn, ship owners. On 2/21/ 1834 he was U.S. Consul under U.S. President Jackson. In 1850 and 1854 he was a appointed as consular agent.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 14, 2013 at 9:32 pm


        I emailed a Mary Herbert, a relative of the shipping agent James Corscaden, for more information. Corscadden owned ships, Creole, Fanny, Royal William, Charlotte Douglas, Erin and Sarah Sands.

        I also put up a profile for him on I found several entries for him under Griffiths Valuation – for Templemore, James St and Queen St. He was a lessor for a William Doherty on Williams St. and owned several properties and businesses in the Shipquay St area.

        The J.S. master was John Young. On the ship Crole, Barry McCorkell was the Principal. We have R. McClellan as the Co-signatory. Maybe the McCorkells of the McCorkell Line were also a co-signatory or principal to the John Stamp. Corscadden and McCorkell were connected by marriage and business.

        I found a passenger record for Corscadden to Philadelphia in 1850s. Also near the entries to Corscadden’s company the McCorkell business were listed as multiple entries. The Honorable Irish Society (Londonderry Company of the Plantation Of Ulster) were also listed as lessors to other businesses near Corscaden and McCorkell properties.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 14, 2013 at 11:15 pm

        We have our Donegal connection. James Corscaden, ship owner, merchant and shipping agent, connected to the McCorkells was born in Muff, Donegal. Five families researched the name plus large family tree on another site. He owned 156 acres in Ballyarnet, Muff, Donegal in 1876. His wife was also from Donegal and they were married there. There is a photo of house where the eldest son lived but I think the house may have been in England.

    • Waxwing

      March 14, 2013 at 10:43 pm

      Excellent work, Eileen, keep digging!

    • Patrick

      March 15, 2013 at 1:17 am

      In Griffiths Valuation there is a Robert McClelland who owns a little land in Donagh parish. At a later point there is a Rev Thomas McClelland who owned land in the parish of Muff. I would not like to say Robert is the same one as that of 1832 but it may be worth looking into. I don’t know any more about Rev Thomas but being in the same parish as the Corscaddens he may be related to them in some way or another.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 16, 2013 at 5:52 am

      Robert Corscadden b abt 1790 (James’ father) also was a merchant, grocer and spirit dealer on Shipquay St. When James who married into the McCorkell family died his probate was 912 pounds. The family became wealthier as time went on. Two of James’ sons were lawyers and gentlemen. Another family member married Annette “Minnie” McCorkell. Two of the women in the family also married well. On Ancestry, I put up a few photos of Shipquay St, very close to number 26 Shipquay St where passengers of the John Stamp went to purchase their tickets for the voyage. Also a photo of Shipquay Gate and the Guildhall. James Corscadden Sr b 1808 lost a grandson in World War I in France in 1917.

  43. Eileen Breen

    March 13, 2013 at 12:41 pm

    In Pennsylvania indentured servitude lasted until 1829. Possibly a few years after this. Ship owners and agents made an agreement. If the agent could persuade someone to take the voyage he got a fee for selling someone into white slavery. People would go on the ships and coerced people into making such an agreement. They would go to the Justice Of The Peace to make the contract legal. The ship’s master would receive 50 acres of land. The master would save the certificates until he had a sizable number of acres. He would then sell the land at a profit.

  44. Waxwing

    March 12, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    Also from Eileen

    There were certain conditions that were applied to assess how distressed or needy a family was to qualify for State Relief and admission to a Poorhouse. The highly eccentric Dr Whatley, Archbishop of Dublin (mentioned extensively on this website in earlier posts) was in charge of the Poor Law Commission so what chance did the inmates have?

  45. Waxwing

    March 12, 2013 at 8:29 am

    The McCorkell line was the best known and was local to Derry.

    There was also J&J Cooke but I think they came a bit later.

    I don’t think either of these companies owned any of our four ships.

    Many of the ships came from Liverpool and stopped off in Derry en route, others may have been chartered.

    The John Stamp. as far as I can see, foundered off the County Down coast in 1939 while carrying cotton from Bombay to Liverpool

    • Eileen Breen

      March 12, 2013 at 8:47 pm

      Mary found a name, Robert MacClellan, who owned the John Stamp in 1835 that sailed from Derry to Quebec from 25 April – 17 June 1835. Ship master was John Young who also mastered J.S. June 1832 to Philadelphia from Derry. MacClellan also owned the barque Jupiter that sailed Apr 9- May 15 1835 from Liverpool; Brig John that sailed 26 April- 19 June 1835 from Dublin: and the Victoria and England. In 1832, 455 vessels arrived in Quebec from Derry, carrying 28,016 passengers.

      The Derry merchants in Derry Port became owners of the shipping lines and steamships but Robert MacClellan was not on the list. The Derry merchants also positioned themselves close to rail lines in Strabane and Enniskillin. The major landowners involved in trade of commodities in the Derry/ Donegal area in the 1830s were Marquis Of Abercorn and London Fishmongers Co. John Adair (Derryveagh) was one of the first six people to own a car in Donegal and he listed the reason for its use was for trade.

      Innishowen didn’t receive a rail line until 1888 but the Derry area had a few rail lines: the Coleraine Line and the Enniskillin Line. Some of the steamship owners, import merchants and distillers who promoted the Enniskillin Line were shareholders in the Londonderry / Coleraine Company. Anther name involved in trade was the North West Steam Packet Company. The Corporation managed the city of Derry.

      The use of steam by the railroads and shipping companies made transportation of people, cattle, produce and goods an inexpensive way to get commodities to the market and facilitated emigration to US, Australia, England, Scotland and Canada.

  46. Eileen Breen

    March 11, 2013 at 1:49 am

    27 July 1829: Ship: Dumfries. Joseph Harvey Of Baltimore, Master. Ship owned : Thomas Adair and John Adair Owners. (Is this Glenveagh Clearances: John Adair?) 126 passengers. Londonderry to Philadelphia.

    13 July 1830 Ship: Asia. Willard, Master of Londonderry. To Philadelphia

    26 June 1830 Brig Symmetry. Alexander Dall of Londonderry for Philadelphia. Listed crew, many were from Derry. 190 passengers. Listed many towns where the passengers were from. Many from Derry, Donegal, Omagh. I have the list of the towns : over 30 listed

    7 Aug 1830. Ship: Eagle. Henry B. Rose, Master. of Alexandria, from Derry to Philadelphia. Owed by Walter Smith, Georgetown, D.C. and H.B. Rose (Master / owner). 1/3 page listed: mechanics, farmers, laborers.

    13 July 1830. Ship: Minstrel Boy. John Whelan, Master from Derry to Philadelphia.

    4 Aug 1830 Ship: Haleyon. William Patterson, Master. from Derry to Philadelphia. Owners hard to read: Bryan Janes?, K, Lan?, Lee Daser?. Lists laborers and 2 citizens of US.

    13 June 1828 Ship: Wyoming. Joseph Coulon, Master, from Derry. Owned by John Welsh of Philadelphia. From Derry to Philadelphia.

    I was thinking these are some of the ships 1828-1830 (June-Aug). Perhaps Phillip Duffy’s housemates on the 1830 census came from one of these ships. Also it would be interesting to see if the ships and owners ring a bell with landlords in Donegal as Patrick suggested. I found a list of Donegal landowners but it only gives townland and how many acres. The Symmetry was the only one that listed the townlands. The Eagle had one full page each of mechanics, laborers and farmers. I’ll check out if there were any ships for 1831-34.

    Patrick, I don’t know if you’re interested but on Ancestry we have the passengers from the four ships in 1832 put up as a family tree. If you want to be a contributor you can give Don your email and he can send you the link and make you a contributor to the site. John Ruddy is on the John Stamp family tree.

  47. Waxwing

    March 10, 2013 at 1:00 pm

    Hi Vic

    If my memory serves me right, I can’t take credit for correcting the ‘I believe’ statement. I think that was passed on second-hand by me from Prof Christine Kinealy whom I enlisted as an associate editor. Nonetheless, the point is well made. I would like to say that Drew University in Madison NJ where she is a full professor is a cut above Immaculata. Neither is in the league of top-ranked Universities in North America.

    However, Drew University’s ranking in the 2013 edition of Best National Liberal Arts Colleges is 100th whereas Immaculata University’s ranking is in Tier 2. The subscription to Drew per annum is over $100 million; that to Immaculata is one-tenth of Drew’s.

    So that just leaves how do they compare as Professors as rated by their students.

    Bill Watson
    Bill gets an overall rating of 3.9 out of five which isn’t bad but he gets no marks for hotness!

    One remark for him goes:

    “This teacher is a mess. His lectures are boring and unorganized. I had such an interest in this subject prior to the class and I feel I learned nothing”.

    That remark is untypical as most feedback is positive and other descriptions of him are, “nutty, crazy, hilarious, easy, confused, amazing, brilliant, funny, painless, helpful, eccentric, amazing, compulsive, unsure, captivating, maniacal”. With all that, how did he lose out on hotness!

    Overall, the impression of Bill Watson seems to be that he is the archetypal Nutty (but endearing) Professor.

    Christine Kinealy
    Christine gets an overall rating of 4.9 out of 5 and she also gets no marks or hotness:

    One comment goes “Incomparable professor…she is the best I have ever, ever experienced in all my undergraduate and graduate years! She is so knowledgeable, approachable, and encouraging. Her enthusiasm for Irish history is contagious. My academic life has been enhanced in such a positive way due to her high standards and exceptional teaching style”.

    Descriptions of her include,’humorous, empathic,knowledgeable, engaging”.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 18, 2013 at 1:04 am

      Christine Kinealy was our 2013 Ambassador Award Winner for our St Patrick’s Day parade. She also got a nice article in our local paper about her accomplishments. She’s going to be a professor at Quinnipiac College in CT. They have the first Famine Memorial in the U.S. and the largest library on Irish history in the U.S.

      • Waxwing

        March 18, 2013 at 7:46 am

        Well done, Christine! I must congratulate her once I know what’s happening with ‘The Sea is Wide’. I’ll leave it till then as otherwise she will be asking. Incidentally, I wasn’t that impressed with her chapter as I know she can write much better.

        Quinnipiac University statistics where Christine went make interesting reading.

        The student intake of 2011 (similar to that of 2013) was 5,500 of 12,000 applicants (47%). Two-thirds of the intake were female and ninety per cent of them were in the top half of their high school class; half ranked in the top quarter; a quarter ranked in the top tenth. Most students hailed from the American Northeast: New York (29%), Connecticut (21%), New Jersey (19%), and Massachusetts (18%). Three quarters received financial aid and over ninety per cent were white.

        Go figure!

  48. Eileen Breen

    March 10, 2013 at 12:15 pm


    That’s a good point about the Scottish Clearances and the landlords who paid to hire the ships. If we can find information on the landowners in Donegal and look at ships that left Derry to Philadelphia from 1828-1834 maybe something will come up. Perhaps Duffy only ‘hired’ Captain John Young from the John Stamp one time but the real boss as you say was the landlord in Donegal. Perhaps the landowner trying to clear the land did the hiring.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 10, 2013 at 12:26 pm

      Tipperary (where Duffy was from) lost 24% of its population and Donegal lost 14% post-famine. That surprised me because I read Donegal had struggled so much during the Famine.

    • Patrick

      March 12, 2013 at 10:39 pm

      Regarding Captain John Young, I think it would be safe to assume that the folk on the John Stamp, or the labourers at least, were indentured servants. I was looking into something a while ago that suggested that the ship captain could well be the owner of the contracts and he would sell these to whoever when the ship arrived in port. I just wonder if these captains paid someone for the contracts before leaving port then sold them on for a profit on arrival. Just guessing of course but perhaps this was a way of paying for the crossing and perhaps to pick up cargo in the US.

  49. Eileen Breen

    March 8, 2013 at 11:50 pm

    Thank you, Patrick, for all the information you have given us. I find it interesting that many who were recruited may have been neighbors. A lot of land must have been sold at this time. It seems unusual that a whole neighborhood would decide to leave at the same time. It will be interesting to discover the circumstances under which they left.

    As Vic pointed out the recruiter alluded to greener pastures in new lands but there must be more to this story. Is it more likely in a community that 1-2 families would experience hard times than for eleven families at the same time? I wonder who owned or purchased the land before and after the migration. Some family may have stayed behind.

    Our problem is we don’t know the truth because we don’t have copies of the dental records, findings of the coroner, findings of the anthropologist. We only have access to published articles from second hand sources. Do the anthropologist and coroner have to make the records public?

    • Mary Cornell

      March 9, 2013 at 12:36 am

      I think Patrick’s family knowledge just gave us one of our most important clues to those passengers on the John Stamp. I do not think that the presence of those nine names on the passenger list are a coincidence. If we were mapping right now, all ten pins would be in the same spot. Also,the disappearance of so many men from one area would have to have had some kind of newspaper article. It would not have gone unnoticed.

      If we can place the other names in the same vicinity, it would show that recruiting was taking place. And I do agree with Eileen and Vic that something was transpiring to cause what is almost a leaving en masse from this area. A promise of greener pastures, you say. How wrong that turned out to be.

    • Waxwing

      March 9, 2013 at 12:42 am

      I take the point of why should it be that the odd person should leave a townland rather than a wholesale exodus. I think this has been touched on before that there must have been a tacit agreement that a junior member of a family would leave when a critical number of family members within a household had been reached. Migration has been described elsewhere as a ‘safety valve’. Also, the gender mix within a household may have ome into it. For a household that made its living from cottage production of linen, three daughters spinning, a male weaving and several males cultivating the flax could just about sustain that household.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 9, 2013 at 1:35 am

        On the Tithe Applottement 1829 in Carramore, Donagh lists William Ewing and a John Ewing. Both are not on the J.S. Are Robert Ewing b. 1814 18 years old and John Ewing b. 1816 16 years old one is a weaver and one is a laborer as Patrick said. Are William and/ or John the father (s) of the 2 young men?

        Patrick, Are we just looking at Carrowmore? I don’t see as many listings for Donagh, Carndonagh as I see Carrowmore and Carrowreagh, Maghredrummin

      • Eileen Breen

        March 9, 2013 at 1:40 am

        I like the idea that the migration was a pressure valve. It would be interesting to see if other communities lost as many to America and elsewhere at the rate Donegal did. It must have been sad to see so many of your neighbors leave at the same time. As we talked about before, the young ones all left leaving just the older folks who may have not been able to do the work or create new jobs.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 17, 2013 at 12:39 pm

        Advertisement from the londonderry Sentinel, March 1832
        ‘The Story of Duffy’s Cut’ #26, also read citations no 27-31 on p.189 in the book.

        Advertisement in the Belfast Newsletter, Tuesday, July 24, 1832 and citation no 32 in the book and p 190 listed the John Stamp as being wrecked. p 69 in the book.

        These were the only references to the ship I saw. I tried to find them without success in Ancestry. They said Tile Films found the advertisements. Maybe PRONI had it.

        I have written to three Corscaden families on Ancestry and Joe McCorkell to ask about the John Stamp but I have received no answer. The only time I saw records on Ancestry for the John Stamp was in the ship manifest. I don’t think we will find it on line. I may have said it incorrectly that he only hired this ship as I never found any other.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 17, 2013 at 11:07 pm

        I have been unable to find any sources that can verify if the JS was under hire from anyone other than McClellan. I believe the Watson’s book only said that Duffy hired the men off the ship, it does not say that he specifically hired the JS for the purpose of transporting laborers from NI. And all of the other sources that I can find, seem to be secondary sources quoting the Watsons. All saying thay Duffy met the ship at the dock and hired the workers from there.

        Your playwright could have a bit of truth in his language depiction, but probably several centuries off, certainly not in 1833.

      • Waxwing

        March 18, 2013 at 7:43 am

        Hi Mary

        Thanks for the link on Derry Port

        It brings some memories back as my Dad was a merchant seaman. He sailed with various shipping lines out of Belfast, possibly also Derry, and he reminisced about the Anchor and Laird Lines, amongst others. I must have absorbed some of this and I dreamt of becoming a ship’s officer but I put that idea out of my head when I discovered I was colour- blind! Not being able to tell between starboard and port on oncoming vessels could have been a bit of a problem! As it was, the British merchant fleet had virtually disappeared by the time I came of age and I had no interest in the Royal Navy.

    • Waxwing

      March 9, 2013 at 12:54 pm

      Not to mention the swingeing increases on whiskey taxation around those times. Whisky distillation was a major source of income for Inishowen and the reputation of its whisky/poitin/moonshine was known far and wide.

      For those who fancy trying their hand at making their own whiskey at home, here is a cookbook:

      Don’t forgot to invite me to the party!

    • Patrick

      March 10, 2013 at 12:17 am

      I don’t know if this will help but perhaps the “recruiting” was done by the landlords or their agents if it was recruiting. I seem to recall when reading into the Scottish Highland Clearances of the landlords “Clan Chief?” arranging and paying passage for some the the people during that time and if memory serves me well some people were given little choice but to accept the “kind” offer

    • Eileen Breen

      March 10, 2013 at 2:53 am

      The Morton Skull Project at Penn is interesting as it highlights racial bias in studying human remains. The scientist Gould felt Morton was biased in his research but it was Gould that was. Monge stated did the “end justify the means” when Gould attempted to discredit Morton. In this case it didn’t because it showed Gould as the one who was more racist. My concern for our project is that if we discredit the Watsons’ theory, what do we want to happen as a result? The Watsons have put a few of their racial biases into the mix. Perhaps this is why William and his family want to let sleeping dogs lie? (pun).

      The full interview with Janet Monge who also worked on the Duffy’s Cut project shows her to be very knowledgeable. Why did she not intervene when the Ruddys told them that these teeth were pulled not missing. I would also like to know how they can tell if a tooth was just missing or could have been pulled. It should have sent a red flag that if several members of the family had teeth pulled then perhaps John did too.

      In 1830 mercury fillings were available in US. Not sure about Ireland. So why was the tooth not fixed? Also teeth were pulled from healthy people and sold for money for making dentures. I saw an interview that said some of the gum and tendons were present on the teeth they found. I’m not so convinced. I couldn’t find any papers presented by Monge or Patterson who spoke in Ireland to dentists on two occasions about the anomaly.

  50. Eileen Breen

    March 8, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    I agree with you that it looks like the Watson’s thesis is false. I was just reading too much into what the Watsons might say: The modern Ruddys also had teeth extracted and it’s a possibility that John did too so maybe we could go with that theory too.

    I was looking at the “hotlist” for the Ruddys and there were only a few from Inishowen: McGonigle, Nicholl, McKendrick, Weir, Gibson, Quigley, McKnight and McIlwain. Not seeing Clonmany.

    Don’t work too hard in England!

  51. Londonderry

    March 8, 2013 at 8:38 pm

    Greetings to all! I have been quiet on the net lately, yet have enjoyed the evolving “discovery” phase. Having visited Donegal with my wife several years ago and witnessing some of the parks there which describe the poor times in that area over the years, I suspect that even any promise of something better likely would have drawn these boys to the Duffy’s work. It’s a lot like young men going to war, e.g. WWI, where things look far rosier than they actually are. Especially, when the promoter markets the benefits and conveniently forgets the hardships in their pitch.

  52. Eileen Breen

    March 6, 2013 at 10:09 pm

    FFT: Is the DNA we are talking about present in all teeth or just in the missing one? Do they have to test teeth, blood or just a buccal swab? Also how do we know the tooth is missing from birth or just knocked out when the the alleged violence happened to the men?

    • Eileen Breen

      March 6, 2013 at 10:13 pm

      Also it would be interesting to note how many in the current Ruddy family still have the missing front molar. Would this indicate how strong the genetic link still is or the prevalence of the genetic link to the Ruddy family VS those still in Ireland.

      • Waxwing

        March 7, 2013 at 7:48 am

        I guess that would be so.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 7, 2013 at 2:31 pm

        Patrick: Do you know if any of the Ruddys who married into your family also had the missing first pre molar?

      • Eileen Breen

        March 7, 2013 at 8:56 pm

        Patrick: On UTUBE I saw a few videos on Donegal. One said Quigley’s Point was also known as Carrowkeel. In the 1911 and 1901 Census of Ireland I didn’t find any Ruddys. I did see the name in a few places. Did the Ruddy family come from Portnoo or Quigley’s Point originally?

      • Waxwing

        March 7, 2013 at 11:23 pm

        There is as you say a lesser-known Carrowkeel just outside Quigley’s Point and the better-known one is in the next peninsula along, Fanad Peninsula, just north of Milford.

        According to Griffiths, there were three small pockets of Ruddys in Donegal – in Portnoo, Inishowen and Ballyshannon. By 1901 they were almost exclusive to Clonmany and Culdaff in Inishowen.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 8, 2013 at 12:50 am

        Ruddys weren’t Flaxgrowers nor did they sign the Act of Union. They may be under the name Roddy. I saw in the 1901 and 1911 census the Clonmany and Inishowen groups. Griffiths may be our only clue for the time period we are looking into with the different groups you pointed out.

      • Patrick

        March 8, 2013 at 1:35 am

        A few things need cleared up.

        Firstly no member of the Ruddy family ever claimed to have a missing first molar. I will use the comment Liam made in the Inishowen Annual to explain what he actually said, ‘Scottish born Liam Ruddy takes up the story: ” I decided to contact the team because of two strange coincidences – the name Ruddy and the genetic tooth defect. At the age of seventeen I had a molar removed from my top left set of teeth because it was impacting on the rest of the teeth in that area. I can remember my dentist telling me I had too many teeth for the size of my gums – our Ruddy line have a narrow jawline. I found this a bit coincidental but subsequently found it is a family trait as my two sisters are also missing certain top and bottom molars for the same reason”.

        Secondly, the William Ruddy who was said to have travelled to the USA to give DNA samples when he heard of the project is a myth. What really happened was Liam was in New York on holiday and because we were interested in the project he decided to go to PA on a day trip and visit the site and hopefully talk to the Watsons which he managed to do. How this got turned round into the myth we do not know but we can only think some press person embellished the story.

        The problem of the narrow jawline does run through our family group (my daughter included) but for me this is different from a missing moler and indeed explains the dentist (Matt Patterson?) being far from happy with this.

      • Waxwing

        March 8, 2013 at 7:49 am

        That was extremely helpful, Patrick, and thanks for that.

        The bones in Ardara then belong to any of the following?

        John Stamp
        John Ruddy, William Doherty, John Long, Hugh Foster, Samuel Bell, William Boyle, Samuel McKenny, William Mahon, John Hunter, William Barber, John Campbell, James Cooke, Samuel Johnston, James Baird, William Ward, James McCrory, Edward McCrory, Donal McFadden, Alex McIlwaine, William Elliott, Robert Ewing, John Craig, William McCormick, George Taylor, William McMichael, Robert McMichael.

        Samuel Scott, Robert Scott, William Campbell, John Fowler, James McFeat.

        James Steel, James Thompson, William Thompson, David Cowan, James Lecky, Samuel Kyle.

        Samuel Quinn, Francis Kelly, Andrew Gregory, James McGuire, Peter Neilson, Daniel Doherty.

        Four things seem to be clearer to me from Patrick’s insight and from compiling this list:

        1. It probably but not certainly was the men off the John Stamp who ended up in Duffy’s Cut, exactly as the Watsons have said all along.

        2. The age profile of those on the John Stamp was very unusual as it had too many unattached young men who had not completed puberty. This was no coincidence and some sinister forces were at play to rob their families of these young men.

        3. The chances of the bones in Ardara being John Ruddy are 1:26 rather than the chances of it not being him being one in a million as the Watsons have claimed all along.

        4. As a rider to the first point, if perchance we are missing something and a congenitally missing tooth is not a red herring, any cousins are most likely to be amongst the John Stamp tranche of boys.


        When Patrick says that these things need to be cleared up, some thought needs to be given to how exactly to go about doing that. It seems to me by doing nothing this leaves the way clear for the Watsons to keep on building their house of straw, especially now that they have been granted the official recognition of being the Institute that investigates at least six other sites in the US.

        The scientific watchdog in the US might need to know especially if a) taxpayer money is likely to be appropriated b) people are submitting DNA material under false pretences c) some other worthier scientific project is losing out through diversion of funds d) to say nothing about the maintaining of standards of seeking out scientific truth.

        It seems to me that the Watsons are way out of their depth and that they should have handed this project over to some other team. None of this takes away from the fact that they brought this story into the public domain and that does them enormous credit. It is what has happened since that bothers. However, the amount of hype that has been generated has not necessarily been a bad thing. It has raised the profile of the Duffy’s Cut tragedy and the story would otherwise have just ended up a footnote in some dry history textbook.

        The other thing that becomes clear to me is that I should have no further contact with the Watsons. Patrick knows the truth, the Watsons know the truth, but still the Watsons play their silly games. I don’t want any further part of that. Are you listening, Bill?

        Footnote: I have run all these John Stamp names through and they are all recorded on an Immigration Passenger List and then nothing.

        Further Footnote: We have enough angles and material to keep us busy for the next two years and to publish a book. All four of us should be part of that project and we can keep our powder dry until then if we so wish? That is not pie in the sky as almost five hundred copies of my book ‘The Sea is Wide’ have shifted already.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 8, 2013 at 1:25 pm

        As to what we can surmise, if we take all 26 unaccounted men from the John Stamp and put them at Duffy’s Cut, we are still short 30 men. Do we make the leap and say that another twenty or so also came from the John Stamp? That puts us back to our original hypothesis that all of the men did not come from the John Stamp. We know that Philip Duffy usually housed ten to twelve men so these men would already be in place at the cut. I do not see any way to identify them unless there is railroad documentation somewhere.

        This last week the Irish History Foundation gave me 100 free lookups for their database and I have been using them to try and find J Ruddy in their Donegal records. So far no luck in the birth and baptismal records. The Ruddy name seems to make a surge after 1850, but before that there are very few Ruddys documented. Like Eileen, I found more Roddy surnames than Ruddy.

        It may be helpful if we went back to Don’s spreadsheet and see if the 26 names are clustered in the same region where we believe John Ruddy lived.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 8, 2013 at 3:53 pm

        I would also wish to find where the men from the Duffy’s boarding house in 1830 census ended up. Unfortunately we have no names. We can use google map on ancestry to tag the places.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 8, 2013 at 3:36 pm

        Thank You Patrick for sharing your history and concerns with us. I think it was the Smithsonian article that said Liam came to PA to give the sample. I don’t think the Watson’s have received any funding for their research but maybe for additional projects they may. Patrick’s information breaks this story wide open. I feel a little disappointed that we are going to sit back and wait for the house of cards to fall. Can anyone put a challenge to Ireland’s coroner that the man buried in Ardara is not John Ruddy. As Mary said in an earlier post maybe someone else’s family is looking for their loved one. I hope Patrick you will continue to work with us.

      • Waxwing

        March 8, 2013 at 3:50 pm

        Patrick might feel a bit compromised that he has already been put in a very invidious position by insisting on the truth as that may put him in disfavour with anyone in the Ruddy clan who has bought the Watson story? Given that it is his contribution so far that could ‘blow this thing wide open’ I am more inclined to let him decide what is the best way to proceed at this particular juncture.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 8, 2013 at 3:55 pm

        I agree Don, I don’t want to upset the Ruddy family. I hope we can work along with them. Thank you again Patrick.

      • Patrick

        March 8, 2013 at 10:02 pm

        Within our family group there is varying opinions from “Don’t get involved…” to “well maybe it is possible that this is John Ruddy’s remains”. My opinion is and will remain that these remains cannot be deemed to be John Ruddy until proof is supplied and that this can only be done through DNA testing. The rest of the family know my position on this and do not seem to have any problem with me on this. There is no paper-trail to help us prove where John Ruddy came from in Donegal, if indeed he came from Donegal in the first place. It may just have been the last place he lived in before leaving for PA.

        In spite of eveything, there is something on the Ships List that may be an indicator that John Ruddy is related to our family group but it is so slim I’M loathe to mention. But it may be better than anything the Watsons have came up with to this point so here goes.

        In the Tithe Applotment 1829/1837 in the parish of Donagh(Carndonagh) there is a man called William Ruddy who I believe is related to me (but unsure as yet how) who shared a piece of land with a William Ewing and if you go to the Ships List there are John and Robert Ewing. one a labourer and the other a weaver. After William Ewing’s death his wife remained in the townland and she was a neighbour of my g-grandmothers brother (great-granduncle) until her death. This couple with other names on the list – Doherty, Long, McKenny(McKinney), McLaughlin, Diver, McIlheaney, Quigley, Farren and Campbell – were names that were borne by neighbours of the Ewings and the Ruddys and make me think that perhaps the recruiting of labour was done in Carndonagh perhaps.

        All that however does not change my stance as to who’s remains were buried in Ardara.

      • Patrick

        March 8, 2013 at 11:33 pm

        As far as I can see on the cancelled Land Books when Margaret Ewing died (I must check that) the farm she lived on became the property of a family called McLucas and the surname Ruddy changed to Reddy. Later on it changed to Ruddy.

        Re what happened to John Ruddy in PA there is a great quote in Charles McGlinchy’s book ‘Last of the Name’ (also used by the Inishowen Annual. “After the wars were over in 1815, lots of ones went off to America. It was all sailing boats at that time. One of the Grants of Clochfin went to America and it took him three months. On the way over he got so seasick that the crew were for throwing him overboard because he was about dead, but some Malin men interfered and woundn’t let them throw him overboard as long as there was life in him. He lasted out the voyage and reached Philadelphia. Instead of taking work he got a pack and soon made the price of a house, and before he died he had a street of houses.”

        I think this shows that the Irish knew what to expect when they reached USA and were well prepared to take off as soon as they landed or shortly after that. I just wonder (and hope) if John and some others did likewise. I have been trying for some time to get some information re a John Ruddy, wife, sons and brothers living in Philadelphia mentioned on the 1880 census who was born about the time of the JS John Ruddy but no luck so far. A long shot I know but you never know.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 8, 2013 at 3:49 pm

        Patrick: What does Liam and Sadie and your brothers think of all this. Are they as uncertain about the findings as you rightly are?

      • Eileen Breen

        March 8, 2013 at 4:29 pm

        I’m still unclear why Duffy would send to Ireland for fresh young 18 year olds than to use the thousands of young men who may have been more physically fit that were already in Pennsylvania. It reminds me of when young men in World Wars were recruited first. There is a lyric to an Irish song “In 1826, plenty of young men in their 20’s said goodbye.” I think they wanted to use them like pack mules in the mines.

      • Waxwing

        March 8, 2013 at 4:52 pm

        Fair Point. For some reason, it is believed that Irish built the Union Pacific Railway, Chinese built the Central Pacific, they joined up in the middle, and Americans had very little to do with the building of either.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 8, 2013 at 5:57 pm

        I think the reason was that the pay was nearly non-existent and the conditions were horrendous. Those who had been here awhile may have already figured out what the game was about or maybe actually worked for the rr and refused to do so again. The men already here would have realized that there were better jobs elsewhere. The rrs would not have a labor force available as the ones here would refuse to work as near-slaves.

        Maybe that is why Duffy kept his workers so close, to keep them away from the knowledge of a better life away from the rr.

      • Waxwing

        March 8, 2013 at 7:01 pm

        An Irish navvy earned $35 dollar a month building a railway in 1840 in the US. The same navvy earned the equivalent of $25 a month building a railway in England. That is to say 25% less and he was expected to shift in either place up to 20 tons of earth per day but almost certainly the terrain in the US was much more difficult and the conditions much more hazardous.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 8, 2013 at 7:15 pm

        Mary spoke about marking out the areas that those on the J.S. came from. We only have a few from all the ships for whom we have an exact townland name – Aiken family and Ruddy family. All the others are from counties. I think we need to work on pinpointing them to a townland, not just a county. Don had put up possible choices based on corrected names/ transcription errors from the manifests. This info needs to be put on the ancestry pages too.

        We only know Duffy was from Tipperary but we don’t know why Donegal was chosen, although it seems ease of travel may have been a factor as the ships went from the Atlantic to the Foyle. On the Donegal website it said if you wanted to travel on a ship you lit a lamp on a hill near the Foyle River and signalled the ship that you were coming. Families said goodbye on the Bridge of Tears before they departed.

        The counties we looked at were Donegal to the west, Derry to the East, Tyrone to the South and Leitrim was to the South-West. It just looks like they picked Derry because it was an easy and safe port to bring the ship in to, then they picked townlands North, South, East and West from there. Perhaps Duffy hired the ship and selected these areas because he knew he could fill the ship if he did a little recruiting. Maybe the roads to the Derry port were not that difficult. I saw that the train was not established in the North Donegal area area until 1888. So either walking or horse was their option.

        The Watsons may not be too far off with the missing tooth theory, even if it’s not the rare missing molar. Maybe, as Patrick stated, in modern times the overcrowding of the teeth needs a certain treatment to make way for new teeth or, as Mary said, in U.S. it’s common practice to remove teeth to push back teeth into a straighter alignment for braces. Another possibility is that in the 1800s if maybe there was an injury to the tooth, or if it was missing in the first place or if there was an infection or a cavity, the common practice was to pull it. Perhaps John Ruddy couldn’t afford the treatment so the tooth was pulled. Early on the barber was the dentist so perhaps there wasn’t concern to save a tooth.

        If we are unable to prove the tooth issue is there any other way to prove John Ruddy is who they say he is? Was he where they said he was, or ere there any letters or family discussions that remember John wanting to go to Pennsylvania? Did he let anyone know his intentions or where he was staying or did he just pick a ship that was going to America and take his chances that he would find housing and a job? Was he planning to send money home or help pay for other family to come?

        Patrick said Liam came to New York. Are there other family members who came to NY during this time in theb1830s? Can we try to find this family? How is John related to the Liam Ruddy family?

      • Waxwing

        March 8, 2013 at 8:28 pm

        Have to disagree with you here, Eileen, and that is a pretty rare occurrence. Patrick’s information on the Ruddy narrow-jaw anomaly knocks the Watson tooth-theory completely out of court and points towards it being a complete falsehood. The difference is that a congenital anomaly will not have a cavity in the jawbone where a tooth should have been; an extraction due to whatever cause will still have the cavity in the jawbone.

        The rest of the geographical points will be covered in the Excel database when I get round to it (that will be in the next few weeks). The sorts of associations that you refer to will be amenable to proximity measurements of some sort or other. This is where my knowledge of statistics will come into play and it should hopefully become clear.

        Nonetheless, I believe your underlying thesis is correct – that Duffy (whether he was from Tipperary or somewhere else) targeted North-West Ulster or he had an agent do that on his behalf. I don’t think he could have done it on his own. I also hope to trawl through the local papers for 1832 and see what I can come up with. I am in England so much these days that will take a bit longer.

        Overall, I think today has been a red-letter day, mainly because of Patrick’s input on this occasion, and it brings Vic’s azimuth into play.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 8, 2013 at 12:20 pm

        The Watsons seem to have been always ‘playing at it,’ as noted by Eileen’s comment that they never want to ‘pay the piper’. Any true scholarly endeavor would not be hindered by a lack of funds as the Duffy’s Cut project has been. I am in complete agreement that they are out of their depth; they lacked that investigative determination to get to the truth. I suppose it can be said that they lack the ‘fire in their belly’ that is necessary to complete the task. The lights of fame seem to have been the goal.

        It is obvious now why it was important to them to have Patrick seen in a bad light; he knows the truth. As a team, we owe him a huge debt of gratitude for his insights. Thank you Patrick.

        BTW I too have a narrow jaw and actually had four teeth pulled (two on top, two on bottom) at the age of 12 when I had braces put on to correct the crowding of my teeth. Might want to inform the Watsons of a possible Ruddy relative!

    • Eileen Breen

      March 6, 2013 at 10:34 pm

      On the Duffy’s Cut Facebook page some asked why they buried him in Ardara not Inishowen. Bill Watson said: We had hoped to bury him in Inishowen but the only unencumbered offer was to bury him in Ardara. Meaning the site was donated for free. I wonder if The Watson’s have a thing about money. Either do the right thing (bury him in Inishowen and do the DNA) and “pay the piper” (not sorry for the pun) or not do this incorrectly as they have.

      • Waxwing

        March 7, 2013 at 7:49 am

        Pay the Piper. I love it!

      • Mary Cornell

        March 7, 2013 at 2:39 pm

        Remember, they are the pipers, bagpipes. Lol

    • Waxwing

      March 7, 2013 at 7:47 am

      I think they would have to extract material from the dental pulp, always supposing that there were any teeth left or that were testable. With a congenitally missing tooth there would be no socket present, hence they would know the tooth was never there.

  53. Eileen Breen

    March 6, 2013 at 10:03 pm

    They prefer to test the X chromosome so they can go back as many generations as they can. But if they are looking for the Y chromosome link they may also have to test the Y chromosome. Perhaps Ancestry could help with particulars. When I was interested in doing my DNA I wrote to them about the testing and they answered my questions.

    • Waxwing

      March 7, 2013 at 7:43 am

      It’s a while since I looked at this but my understanding of DNA testing is that Y-DNA testing (the male side) can track more recent mutations within about ten generations or longer, whereas mitochondrial DNA (the female side) tracks further back than that again.

  54. Eileen Breen

    March 6, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    If Ancestry can find out through DNA testing if someone’s linked to Niall Of The Nine Hostages or Thomas Jefferson surly the Watson’s can pay under $300.00 to see if the Ruddy family is linked to “AKA John Ruddy.” If we are going to try to see if cousins came over w/ John, then we will need Patrick’s assistance with relatives’ last names. Also prior to burying a missing person in Ireland don’t they need a positive ID? Did the Coroner in Ireland need proof before putting the bones into the ground? Can we find out through Coroner Records in Ireland. Can Patrick request such a record?

    • Eileen Breen

      March 6, 2013 at 9:58 pm

      Patrick: Can we map out your family tree? We could use a private tree on Ancestry. I thought if we could find some names to search we could see if there others on the ship manifest that might be connected. Thanks

      • Patrick

        March 7, 2013 at 12:18 pm


        Mapping out a family tree in the time frame of 1832 is a Big Ask. The best I could do is make a guess as trying to find information re family links at this point in time is difficult to say the least. Something worth noting is that when you look at the ships manifest family groups seem to be indicated by bracketing names together. If I applied modern information re names on the family tree I could well be related to a number of names on the manifest. To muddy the waters somewhat we have (unrelated) Ruddys on both sides of our family. My great grandmother on my mothers side was a Ruddy also but from a different parish. Leave this with me and I will see what I can come up with.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 7, 2013 at 1:20 pm

        Thank you Patrick for your time and effort. This seems to be getting interesting.

  55. Eileen Breen

    March 6, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    Excellent Quote! So true!;)

  56. Eileen Breen

    March 6, 2013 at 1:32 pm

    I can’t believe Bill Watson wrote to you! That was amazing! Maybe we can ask him about the DNA in a round about way. Ask him about the the DNA information you found maybe this could open the door?

    • Waxwing

      March 6, 2013 at 1:46 pm

      ‘Keep your friends close and your enemies closer’
      Niccolo Macchiavelli

    • Mary Cornell

      March 6, 2013 at 3:44 pm

      Logically, the Smithsonian has no reason to lie about the DNA results. On the other hand, if the DNA results were not what the Watsons expected, they would be back to square one and would lose a lot of their credibility. Being that the Watsons were the ones who opened up their work to the public and the press, right to privacy is no longer valid. The Watsons have placed themselves on a slippery slope and don’t know how to get off.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 7, 2013 at 1:42 am

        The Watsons may not have the right to privacy but Liam Ruddy does. HIPPA laws and all. So maybe if Liam could write to the Watsons to ask what’s up? Then we might have a leg to stand on. Perhaps we could have Patrick look at the ship manifest for J.S. to see if any last names ring a bell with cousins they might have had.

      • Waxwing

        March 7, 2013 at 7:54 am

        You have a good point there. It sounds distinctly dodgy, ethically speaking, to take biological material from a ‘consenting’ and living subject for a specific and agreed purpose and to withhold the results. Liam could have personal information held on him without his knowledge which for all I know could conceivably be used against him if being kept on some database or in a file. Habeas Corpus might apply? In any case, if they are not going to do the test the Smithsonian should destroy the material and erase Liam’s name from their database.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 7, 2013 at 2:52 pm

        There is a possibility the Liam has been given the results. He seems to be absent from view in this whole thing.

    • Mary Cornell

      March 6, 2013 at 3:57 pm

      I just realized something from Eileen’s post. We have never checked into the possibility that John Ruddy may have been traveling with cousins. If the dental anomaly is carried on the x chromosome, sisters would inherit the gene. Married sisters would have different surnames. Difficult task, but something to look into with the younger passengers on the JS. Young cousins may have traveled together.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 6, 2013 at 4:15 pm

        Another thought on the dental anomaly. If it is carried on the x chromosome,then its occurrence in present day Ruddys may have no correlation to Ruddys in the past. As you stated,the anomaly may be present through a male Ruddy marriage to a female with the gene. This would make identification impossible through the anomaly. Too many outside factors present. So we are back again to DNA being the only definitive answer.

      • Waxwing

        March 6, 2013 at 8:03 pm

        I need to double-check and triple-check before I could be more definitive but from what I have read so far the following appear to be true:

        Solitary non-syndromal congenital hypodontia, the kind they found in the Duffy’s Cut, is more likely to be X-linked than the other kinds.

        Whether X-linked or not, the chromosome would have to be recessive and it would give way to any more dominant gene. This accounts for the rarity of the physical expression of the gene in the form of in this case the missing tooth.

        It the anomaly were peculiar to Ruddys it would not be X-linked and it would have to be incestuous or the effects would wear off or become more dispersed with each generation.

  57. Eileen Breen

    March 6, 2013 at 1:23 pm

    I tried to quickly find records in Donegal for Sadie, and James and Bernard (first cousins). This might be interesting to discover if not only John Ruddy but cousins were on the John Stamp. If Liam Ruddy gave DNA did he have a missing tooth or did Sadie? On Ancestry they ask for the male DNA and I think you learn more about the DNA from the male that is the oldest with a particular last name.

  58. Eileen Breen

    March 6, 2013 at 1:13 pm

    Hi Patrick: Thanks for the information. About two months ago I found an old article about Duffy’s Cut in the Smithsonian Magazine. I wrote to the editor of the magazine and asked about the DNA results and they said we had to ask the Duffy’s Cut project. It’s interesting if the Smithsonian volunteered to do the project for free we should have seen results. Mary saw a post on their Facebook page where someone asked what were the results of the DNA tests that Liam Ruddy volunteered for. It did not get a reply. A new book and a TV movie are soon to come out maybe we will get some answers. Do you know the Ruddy family perhaps we could ask them?

    • Waxwing

      March 6, 2013 at 1:33 pm

      Patrick is a brother of James and Bernard.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 6, 2013 at 10:18 pm

        Hi Patrick: Are Sadie and Liam 1st cousins?

  59. Eileen Breen

    March 5, 2013 at 2:23 pm

    DNA samples of Liam Ruddy were taken by the Smithsonian. The same folks who did the film The Ghosts Of Duffy’s Cut. I wrote to the Smithsonian but they said we had to contact the Watsons. Perhaps the Watsons never paid the Smithsonian to do the DNA on the material they took. The DNA testing they do on Ancestry seems reasonable. I don’t understand why it wasn’t done.

    • Patrick

      March 6, 2013 at 12:28 am

      This reply was sent to someone I know who asked if there had been any progress re the DNA result. It was dated 16/11/12
      Hello ****** –alas, we are at the mercy of the Smithsonian Institution, where it is being done

      for us without charge. We are awaiting word.



      Dr. William Watson, Immaculata University

      • Waxwing

        March 6, 2013 at 8:31 am

        Without charge, interesting! Whereas before, the official line was that it was too costly? Also there seems to be a case of smoke and mirrors going on around the missing William Ruddy (presumably a cousin) who is said to have gone walkabout in Australia?

        On a slightly different tack, the issue of the missing tooth has been gnawing away at me (sorry about the pun)! The whole Watson case on John Ruddy is built on this dental anomaly rather than the missing DNA. It is true that a missing first premolar tooth is one of the rarer dental anomalies but I started to wonder about the effects of living in a closed community such as Donegal (especially Inishowen) and marrying between way-out cousins.

        Recent research appears to show that the chromosomal glitch that is the cause of singular (one-tooth) congenital (born that way) nonsyndromal (nothing else wrong, such as cleft palate, stunted growth or missing nails) hypodontia (too few teeth) is highly likely to be linked to the X-chromosome. That means it could be running down the female line, not the male, although expressing itself in males. In turn, that means you don’t have to be a Ruddy to be missing a tooth, you could just be born to someone who married a female Ruddy.

        I don’t know enough about genetics to say much more than that at this point in time but I mean to find out more. What all that boils down to is that John Ruddy may not be buried in Ardara, it could be a cousin!

        In this particular instance, could either of these boys on the John Stamp be a cousin of John Ruddy:

        William Ward 17
        Donal McFadden 18

        There is another whole heap of 18 year old labourers from the John Stamp that I haven’t listed as their surnames are probably Protestant (though that doesn’t necessarily rule out) or they were from neighbouring counties (ditto). Neither have I mentioned a tranche of 18 year olds that came on the other three boats with passengers who could have ended up in Duffy’s Cut.

      • Waxwing

        March 7, 2013 at 8:50 am

        This link comes from Mary

        Unless Bill Watson has got himself tied up in knots, this is even curiouser. He talks about an upper missing front molar. There is no such thing as a front molar, but perhaps he means first molar as opposed to third molar. Molar teeth are at the back of the mouth and the rarest tooth that can be missing is the first premolar.

  60. Eileen Breen

    March 5, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    So if Duffy was from Tipperary he didn’t speak Gaelic? So would recruiting in Ardara be difficult or not if 30% of the area spoke Gaelic. He may also have been illiterate if he only signed with his mark and not his name.

  61. Eileen Breen

    March 5, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    We had a few people from Prehen. Maybe we would try to look up. On my Facebook page, there is a photo of the town.

  62. Mary Cornell

    March 4, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    Earlier, both Eileen and I had found a few tidbits on Philip Duffy. He can be found in the 1830 census in a house with several male laborers. I do not remember the name of the town, but it was in the general vicinity of Malvern. He is also in the 1870 Census living in a wealthy suburb of Philadelphia. He is also buried in one of the Catholic cemeteries in Philadelphia. The actual location of the grave is not known, but is believed to be in a section that now has a building on top of it. I have been trying to locate where I had seen his birthplace as being Tipperary. I believe it was in one of the earliest articles on the dig. Will keep looking.

    Hmmm …The Watsons blocking of Patrick on their sites is very interesting. Patrick may be pointing out exactly what the Watsons do not want investigated more closely. Yesterday, Eileen sent me some of the photos that are posted on the Duffys Cut, immaculata site and what caught my eye is the fact they blurred the image of the purported railroad letter. Why would they feel that was necessary? I suppose that if they blur and block any more info, their web site will be empty.

  63. Eileen Breen

    March 4, 2013 at 2:19 pm

    On the John Stamp tree I tried to look up census records for Philip Duffy. I only found one and a few snippets on his son. It was strange he only appeared in an 1830 census with the ten Irish workers who were not listed by name. I would like to see if any of the woman on the John Stamp took over employees of the P&C RR. Thanks for the email. Now we know Ruddy may have been From Portnoo, Inishowen or near Quigley’s Point and we have 3 relative names James, Bernard and Sadie. Can Patrick give us any updates? Also the article said Slieve Tooey was the last place John would have seen before he left Ireland.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 4, 2013 at 3:18 pm

      Liam Ruddy is the one who gave DNA to the Smithsonian when he came to the US.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 5, 2013 at 1:11 pm

        Now that John Ruddy is buried, are there any DNA samples available?! Or have the Watsons made it so that any samples would only be available from them?

    • Eileen Breen

      March 4, 2013 at 9:13 pm

      I sent you and Mary the slide show from the funeral. My Guess photo #51 is Sadie Ruddy (Portnoo, Donegal), and her first cousins James Ruddy and Bernard Ruddy (Quigley’s Point). The article said John Ruddy’s hometown was Inishowen. Looking at the slideshow: In the very beginning a man in a turtleneck and khakis took the casket out of the hearse (maybe he’s from the Watson’s team?). After him were the men in black who I’m assuming were undertakers as one of them lowered the casket into the ground. The lady in blue and two men were next in line. Not sure if Liam was there. There also was a photo of an older gentleman in the center with two ladies, perhaps daughters, who looked like they were from the same family? Maybe, Liam Ruddy and his daughters. The others are photographed in larger groups like they were bystanders. I guess we will have to wait for the TV movie and book.

      • Waxwing

        March 5, 2013 at 11:35 am

        I believe the guy in the turtle neck is Earl Schandelmeier, one-time student of Bill Watson and adjunct Professor at Immaculata. Not surprisingly, I heard a few of the people there speaking in Gaelic, even the younger ones in their twenties, which was quite pleasing to me.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 5, 2013 at 1:34 pm

        My thought was that the woman in blue was Sadie based only on her presence in several of the photos and she and two men were first in the procession. I don’t think Liam was there, but the duffer in the hat is still interesting.

      • Waxwing

        March 5, 2013 at 1:49 pm

        I have the answer to that but it would be better coming from Patrick who has been in touch with me by email to give me the lowdown. Here is my reply to him:

        “Sorry you couldn’t make it to Ardara. I was very much in two minds about it and the trip wasn’t really worth it, other than being able to look Bill Watson in the eye, and my wife got some nice new purchases in McElhinneys in Ballybofey on the way past!

        I am glad you made contact as a kindred spirit. I sense I am persona non grata with them but no way is that going to put me off. Feel free to continue to add your tuppenceworth and you will categorically never be bumped off my website! Also, you will find in Mary Cornell and Eileen Breen two good new buddies”.

      • Waxwing

        March 5, 2013 at 1:51 pm

        I don’t understand how the Smithsonian works. I would have thought they have a duty to inform and educate the public without strings attached?

      • Eileen Breen

        March 6, 2013 at 1:43 am

        My guess since the Duffy’s Cut project initiated and would be funding the DNA analysis they have their right to privacy of the results. The film they were making in Ardara is for TV. The first film was done by the Smithsonian. Maybe they mentioned the DNA in the film we didn’t get to see. I keep looking for it to come out on the Smithsonian website but so far it hasn’t happened. I’m envious you got to go shopping! My favorite pastime!

      • Mary Cornell

        March 5, 2013 at 2:17 pm

        Don, feel free to give Patrick my e- mail address if he is more comfortable not using a public forum for all of his insights.

        I told you you would owe your wife big time. 🙂 Looking Bill Watson in the eye and making him squirm, to me, was worth the trip.

      • Waxwing

        March 6, 2013 at 8:51 am

        BTW I got an email from Bill Watson saying it was great meeting me (!) and giving me a whole spiel on his Donnelly ancestors. As usual, he avoided my suggestion that I put to him that, never mind the Ruddys, Donnellys shouldn’t have been too hard to find in Donegal. It is a comparatively rare name there, at least as rare as Ruddy.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 6, 2013 at 3:00 pm

        My suspicious mind is at work. Certain actions by Bill and Frank at certain times makes me wonder if they are following our comments on this page. Deflecting again? Bill may also want to keep his enemies close. I was always rather fond of Machiavelli.

      • Waxwing

        March 6, 2013 at 3:29 pm

        I would be surprised if they weren’t following it. If you Google my name alongside Duffy’s Cut half of the entries on the first page refer to me.

    • Waxwing

      March 5, 2013 at 9:05 am

      I think there was a little bit of poetic license when Fr. Laverty said that Ardara/Portnoo would be the last place the emigrants saw when they left Ireland. That would more likely be the Fanad Peninsula or the Inishowen peninsula which includes Malin Head. Otherwise the ship would have had to turn a corner and hug the Donegal shoreline, instead of heading straight across to America.

  64. Eileen Breen

    March 2, 2013 at 11:00 pm

    Prior to our hiatus, we talked about the Passenger Act that affected Irish immigrants and indentured servants. I saw an article on NBC News about the Cruise Vessel Safety And Security Act. The Carnival Ship Triumph had made the news on 15 Feb 2013 when it lost all four engines and passengers and had to endure several days on the ocean before they were towed to a New Orleans port. The passengers originally embarked in Texas.

    The issue was that even though passengers embarked in the US the ship was registered in the Bahamas. The passengers had to read the fine print and signed an agreement to abide by their (Carnival Cruise Line) terms. Often passengers don’t realize ships are registered in foreign ports. By signing the passenger agreement, Carnival Triumph passengers gave up their rights to compensation. Those travelling on ships are not as protected as those who travel on planes. The passengers of the Triumph had no rights to receive compensation for the psychological effects when this event occurred. This was stated on their passenger agreement that they signed prior to their voyage.

    When the engines on the ship failed the passengers and crew were stranded on the open ocean. As a result, they had no fresh-running water or fresh air, sewage was seeping all over the ship, there was lack of food and a prolonged period of time enduring these conditions before they were rescued. Sounds familiar? In comparison, planes offer stiff fines if passengers are left on the tarmac for more than 3 hours, if they don’t provide for safety measures, food and water etc. Knowledge is power. It pays to read the fine print.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 3, 2013 at 2:59 pm

      Prior to our break we had a lot of questions to be answered. Looking back on the Fear Of Contagion article (Well written Don!) and the comments below that we still have a lot to do! Where does that leave us?

      • Waxwing

        March 3, 2013 at 5:02 pm

        Personally, I don’t think we need to bring anything more to the table. I think we have enough material, as summarised by me in the Archives page. I plan to focus on completing the Excel spreadsheet and to see what leads come from any patterns that emerge from that. I also plan at the correct juncture to make a renewed contact with the Donegal Democrat to get them to follow through on the Ardara angle which could be a launching pad for a fresh initiative. I think between us we could decide what criteria to apply to the Ancestry searches and include the findings of all our waxwings in the database. Then we might be getting somewhere. I punched John Doak DOB 1813 born in Ireland in for starters and I came up with someone who appeared as a teamster in the 1871 Canadian Census.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 4, 2013 at 2:34 pm

        There are several John Doaks but I couldn’t find Amelia. I wasn’t sure if the one in Canada was correct. I was thinking he may have worked in a mill as he was a weaver. But it could be possible he ended up in Canada and worked a a farmer/ weaver as he got older. I didn’t see any records that he travelled from Philadelphia to Canada. I saw in Philadelphia there was a Doak textile/rug store but I couldn’t find out anything on the company. Just a lot of possibilities. Sometimes going to Philadelphia and looking through the books in the library might be more useful than trying to do this on line.

      • Waxwing

        March 5, 2013 at 8:56 am

        I saw that there was a whole clan of Doaks that left from Donegal for the US in the late 1700s so our John was probably the latest in a whole line of them so he will not be discoverable.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 3, 2013 at 3:04 pm

      The Watson’s last letter was very informative. He seems to disagree with us that John Ruddy was English speaking and may have been more educated that the Watsons believe. Also he assumes that the Irish just want to fight with one another over their religion. They were trying to get away from their problems, not trying to keep the old issues from hindering them. They wanted a better life. Perhaps they were trying to get along with everyone despite sentiments at home and abroad.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 3, 2013 at 4:51 pm

        That last letter by Bill Watson had a distinct ‘attitude’ that bothered me. He was basically saying that these findings are true because I say they are. He simply spit back what was said in his first book. He also seemed to think that by saying everything would be discussed in the second book made the suppositions true. He sees our questioning of his conclusions as a personal attack on him rather than an attempt to get the facts straight.

        The way I see it, he is the one who has called his own integrity into question. I also have a problem with Janet Monge’s scientific process. Except for the actual head wounds, everything else is conjecture. She herself said early on that it was impossible to tell if any of the remains had cholera as there was no tissue left. And as Eileen pointed out, you cannot judge stature by a skull and jawbone.

        Bill’s actions yesterday clearly had the arrogance of someone who does not take kindly to anyone questioning his findings. I personally thought it to be completely disrespectful to ignore Don’s presence yesterday. I fear all he is done is ‘awaken the sleeping giant’. We all seem more determined than ever to find the truth and set the record straight.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 3, 2013 at 11:27 pm

      I was looking at the John Stamp (immigrants came from Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh, Donegal, Leitrim and Monaghan); the Ontario (N.W. Ireland); the Prudence (Tyrone and Derry) and Asia (“Ireland”- no townlands listed). It looked like the North West of Ireland was recruited on three of the ships.

      When I searched why the North West of Ireland was recruited in 1832, a story popped up about the DuPont Irish who owned a gunpowder factory in the eighteenth century. Multiple members of several generations were recruited from N.W. Ireland and it wasn’t only the family that sponsored other families to come over but shop owners, and other workers employed in the town where the DuPont’s lived as well as their employees. One employee sponsored thirty four members of the DuPont family.

      I was thinking about our saga and maybe Duffy didn’t act alone. Maybe workers and owners of the railroad and merchants also recruited the Irish laborers, weavers and farmers. The book Black Powder And White Lace also suggested that woman also assisted in bringing the family over. When you put some of the towns on the Ancestry google map you can see how they travelled recruiting workers. So all three ships carried workers who were from the North West of Ireland and with but a few exceptions, being Leitrim, Laois and Antrim.

      • Waxwing

        March 4, 2013 at 12:03 am

        That is true and it is even more concentrated than that – 80% of the immigrants came from within a fifteen mile radius of Lifford in Donegal and Ardstraw in Tyrone. Hardly any came from Derry and hardly any came from Gaelic-speaking places. From that alone, it would appear that Duffy was not acting alone.

        That is to say, unless Duffy came from round these parts himself? If Duffy came from Donegal, it is highly likely judging by his surname that he was a Gaelic speaker. Likewise, judging by his surname, he was five times as likely to have come from Donegal as Tyrone. If he did come from Donegal, he had little success recruiting from the part of Donegal that he most likely came from.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 4, 2013 at 12:48 pm

        Didn’t the Watsons state somewhere that Duffy was from Tipperary? Quite a ways from the recruiting area to say the least and, if he were from Tipperary, was he Gaelic-speaking?

      • Eileen Breen

        March 4, 2013 at 2:22 pm

        I discovered Prehen is in Derry right on the Foyle. It looks like it would have been their first stop to recruit people. If you google it it has an interesting history of the town.

      • Waxwing

        March 5, 2013 at 9:02 am

        Prehen is not actually a town as it is little more than a tiny suburb of Derry, no more than a few fields.

  65. Eileen Breen

    March 2, 2013 at 1:37 pm

    It’s probably best to not go to the service. I do think the Watsons have the best intentions. If the book was written more objectively I think the Watsons would have got farther with me. I think Frank Watson likes a good story with folklore and all. The only time I saw negative postings on their site was recently. They brought this on themselves with all the publicity. Perhaps if they had made the service private and invited just the Ruddys then it would be less sensational.

    I do think the Watsons are respected by the students and the Pennsylvania community. I wish they would reach out to Patrick Ruddy to answer his questions. I don’t think researchers usually invite the press at every finding and publicize it with articles and a film. I watched a Special on The Titanic and it was told in a objective manner by the researchers who showed compassion for those who were lost as well as the Belfast workers and families of those who built the ship. The Watsons can save the ‘I caught the big fish story’ for the classroom but when discussing their findings leave out the tall tales.

    • Waxwing

      March 2, 2013 at 6:11 pm

      Too late.

      I went to Ardara and I dragged my wife along with me. We had a cup of tea in the parochial hall where the Watsons played the bagpipes. I did not go to the service as it didn’t sit right with me and I arrived just as the interment had been completed. I went up to Bill Watson and I introduced myself but by the look on his face I don’t think he was particularly pleased to see me. In fact he seemed lost for words (unusually for him). In Northern Ireland they have a word for it – gobsmacked. I tried to get a word with Frank but he was too busy speaking to a journalist and I slipped away. I intend to have no further contact with the Watsons unless they have contact with me first. I will post some of my photos later on the website. I am not discouraged by Bill’s lack of interest or lack of welcoming of my attendance and, having looked him in the eye, I am more determined than ever to put some of the falsehoods and fabrications straight.

      • Mary Cornell

        March 2, 2013 at 7:01 pm

        You owe your wife big time for this one.

        Whether it was a good idea or not, I think it was important to meet the Watsons in person. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall after you left. It seems to have been awkward for Bill, like a child caught in a lie who hopes nothing is said about it. A gentlemanly or scholarly reaction would have been to engage in a conversation, no matter how short, about the differing views.

        Your opinion of the man after having met him?

      • Waxwing

        March 2, 2013 at 7:14 pm

        Having my wife there was a good idea as I would otherwise have been like a lost soul, sitting in the hall as a complete stranger and wondering what I was doing there. She thought it odd, to say the least, that Bill did not seek me out in that small hall which only had a smattering of people in it and put some kind of a face on things. For all he knew I could have gone to some considerable trouble to get there – a five hour car journey I suppose was trouble enough. Also, I was probably one of the few people there who had some informed and genuine interest in the occasion. Enough said!

      • Eileen Breen

        March 2, 2013 at 7:42 pm

        Thank you, Don, and to your wife for taking the time and compassion to set the record straight. I tried to check out Dee Campbell from Facebook who claims to be a relative of William Diver b. 1811 (laborer), Elizabeth Diver (spinster) and her son, John Diver age 1.

        I put the name Diver as an alternate under their names. The John Stamp manifest has the name listed as Diven from Donegal. Tithe books have five William Divers in 1828 from townlands of: Aughalalty, Mevagh, Donegal; Dallylosky, Donagh, Donegal; Dually, Clonmany, Donegal; Dromore, Donaghmore, Donegal; Letter, Clonmany, Donegal. Spelling for towns from Ancestry. Letter, could it be Letterkenny?

        There are Campbells on the John Stamp but they are from Tyrone. I don’t know if we want to ask Dee how she’s related to the Divers? I couldn’t find anything definitive on Ancestry or in Ancestry family trees for this name.

      • Waxwing

        March 3, 2013 at 8:02 am

        Dee seems quite a character and her Facebook is a hoot. She is into cosmetology and she has been married six or seven times, she says she has lost count!

      • Patrick

        March 2, 2013 at 7:39 pm

        Hi Waxwing

        Now that the remains of whoever this person was have been laid to rest, I hope that you will continue to try to expose some of the falsehoods and fabrications you believe are attached to this project. The Watsons continual claim that these are the remains of John Ruddy, or anyone else for that matter, are in my eyes disgraceful to say the least. Clearly they cannot prove this and if you step back and look at this it brings the rest of their “work” into question. If they have been found to tell one lie how many more have they told. As far as I am concerned these remains are those of John Ruddy simply because the Watsons want them to be.

      • Waxwing

        March 2, 2013 at 8:05 pm

        Hi Patrick

        Thank you for this input as Eileen, Mary and myself from the Waxwing Project crew have all been asking about you recently. You have been very much the lone soldier for so long and you are very welcome to jump on board.

        I have taken some photos from the Ardara carnival and they head up the new Duffys Cut page on this website.

        All the best


  66. Eileen Breen

    March 1, 2013 at 10:41 pm

    According to the article, one body buried separately was that of John Ruddy. The rail road records show only one man was 18 years old. One body found was that of a man who was 18 yrs of age. The other bodies of men in their 20’s couldn’t be identified because of “too many possibilities.” I think their research has too many possibilities!

    • Eileen Breen

      March 1, 2013 at 11:21 pm

      The Duffy’s Cut project on Facebook has more comments recently. I emailed Mary that I saw two comments, one from Margaret McLaughlin that Inishowen is far from Ardara and a comment by Patrick Ruddy. Someone said that they saw Patrick Ruddy’s comment and made a nasty remark about it – that he should say he’s sorry for insulting the Watsons (which he didn’t)! He just said he didn’t think the remains they found could be John Ruddy’s with so little evidence – that it was a lie! The other person said he should put up his evidence or take down the comment. I had seen his comment this AM but now it’s nowhere to be found. Perhaps Patrick took it down, which is too bad. Can we contact him to let him know we are still trying to find out what happened?

      • Mary Cornell

        March 2, 2013 at 1:00 am

        I don’t think Patrick took it down. When I was reading the comments I noticed a question about the DNA tests and why was it taking do long. That question went unanswered while questions that appeared later were answered. Frank seems to be very good at deflecting by using flattery to not answer a question. I have to disagree about there not being an agenda. Or more to the point, the Watsons look like they are trying to hide the fact they just don’t know and get their backs up when someone appears to be criticizing.

      • Waxwing

        March 2, 2013 at 7:51 am

        I put together some time ago a short feature article, ‘Eagla na Galru’ (The Fear of Contagion), which I sent to the Donegal Democrat and the Donegal News, the same papers that are giving this circus in Ardara so much column space. I never received an acknowledgment, let alone a reply, so clearly anything that could be seen to possibly spoil a good story does not go down well.

        The article can be seen at the top of the Food for Thought page under DraftEagla if clicked upon. I sent a copy to the Watsons as well and Bill came back with a sharp retort, accusing me of having spoken to the forensic dentist, Matt Patterson, who fell out with them. This dentist was allegedly going about pouring cold water on the more sensationalist parts of the story. He sounds a good person to link up with?

        I very well may not make it to Ardara today. My wife is thoroughly disapproving of the idea as she thinks the whole caper is a sham and that it is disrespectful to the Ruddys and the other unidentified deceased.

      • Waxwing

        March 2, 2013 at 8:25 am

        UPenn Article on Duffys Cut

        I came across this feature article from UPenn which covers the ground (sorry about the pun) in a balanced and considered way:

        It portrays William Watson as a kind of Indiana Jones character who is way out of his depth and who is like a bull in a china shop. Watson is seen as someone who stumbles across the truth because of his blind enthusiasm, and despite his undoubted flaws and lack of critical faculty. The article also describes that certain members of Watson’s team, notably Earl Schandelmeier, have tried to rein Watson in without success but they stick with him because he is the driving force behind the Duffys Cut project. His steamroller approach, although unscientific, can be quite contagious.

        I think I’m starting to like this guy!

      • Mary Cornell

        March 2, 2013 at 8:36 am

        Of course it is a sham, but shouldn’t there be at least one person there who is there to honestly honor the memory of those lads who crossed the ocean and never returned? The Ruddy family must certainly feel used by the circus this seems to have become and their absence is understandable. I am not sure if I would go if the opportunity was mine. Your wife is right, but….

        The question I would ask the forensic dentist would be – how prevalent was the dental anomaly in Northern Ireland, not just in the Ruddy family.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 3, 2013 at 1:28 pm

        Every time they get asked a question about DNA the article either says they’re still waiting for results, haven’t got the results or need the funds to do it. One of the first articles done by Smithsonian Magazine which also produced the movie that’s on the Smithsonian HD Channel this month said the Smithsonian did the DNA. I wrote to the Smithsonian who said we would have to write to the Watsons for the results. I think they have the results but they’re inconclusive but they went ahead with the service, 1 year memorial in PA on Mar 9, 2013 and the film crew from the Smithsonian that was at the funeral service yesterday. I don’t think they will make the results known or they know they will be challenged.

      • Waxwing

        March 3, 2013 at 6:00 pm

        Intriguing! The Smithsonian are not disclaiming all knowledge so must have more than a passing acquaintance of the sample. They are being very coy about sharing information, which is in marked contrast to the Watsons whose line is that the test was too costly to carry out. Who and what to believe?

      • Patrick

        March 3, 2013 at 5:48 pm

        My comments were removed from the Duffy’s Cut Facebook page by their team while they left their own. But they in turn were removed after I e-mailed them with a long reply, pointing out the folly of what they posted. I pointed out that there was more than one labourer on the John Stamp age about 18 years old. There were in fact sixteen labourers in the age group of 11 years old to 18 years old and some others aged 19 who may well could be brought into the equation.

        The Facebook page in the first instance denied this, then tried to deflect from this by pointing out how many labourers there were on the John Stamp but they were still not willing to point out I was in fact correct. As things stand at the moment they have blocked me from making further comment on the page. Looks like they do not want to be taken to task any more. I wonder why?

        It is also worth noting that as I look at it, it seems that because they were contacted by members of the Ruddy family that means that these remains must be John Ruddy. Where is the science in that? They have made a quantum leap from a name on a ship’s list to remains in a grave. I also think that the DNA results will never be known as it may cause problems for the Watsons at a later date.

      • Waxwing

        March 3, 2013 at 6:15 pm

        Thanks for that input, Patrick, which adds grist to the mill. Well spotted also about the number of 18 year olds on the John Stamp. It may be of interest for you to know that Bill Watson warned me against being taken in by Dr Matt Patterson, their erstwhile forensic dentist. It was Dr Patterson who flagged up the one solid piece of evidence tnat the Watsons have and that they play upon, namely the anomalous missing upper premolar. Apparently Dr Patterson has fallen out with the Watsons over this and refused to hold the line on the official Watson version. As I understand it, it is the combination of unsealed cranial fissures (indicating an 18 year old) and missing premolar that has convinced the Watsons the remains have to be those of John Ruddy, not just the age alone. Not an unreasonable stance to take but not watertight either, hence the need for the DNA.

      • Waxwing

        March 4, 2013 at 7:48 am

        Mary has forwarded the article from the Donegal News which has a few interesting additional snippets:

        The article reports that three Ruddys were in attendance, Sadie (from Portnoo, which is just round the corner from Portnoo) and James and Bernard from Quigley’s Point in Inishowen. None of them gave quotes to the paper, all of them had the same dental anomaly, and their attendance might imply they gave their blessing to the proceedings.

        It begs the question why they agreed to have John Ruddy buried in a stranger’s grave, rather than find space for him in a family plot, but perhaps they will speak on the documentary. The officiating priest remarked,” In a strange way it’s appropriate that his [Duffy’s] remains are laid to rest in his native country”, but he likewise did not comment on the appropriateness of a strange grave to serve that end. At least he got the ‘strange way’ part of it all right.

        The article also reports that Bill Watson’s department is to house an Institute that will explore at least six other mass graves in PA and neighbouring states. This whole thing is certainly gathering a lot of momentum, where will it all end?

      • Waxwing

        March 4, 2013 at 9:01 am


        Anyone thought of trying to find any details on Philip Duffy himself? There must be some trace of him in the form of an obituary at least? If he can’t be traced, what hope of finding any of the railroad workers? He’s not even listed in the PA censuses as far as I can see.

      • Waxwing

        March 4, 2013 at 9:26 am

        Matthew 8:22: ‘And Jesus said, let the dead bury their dead’.

    • Waxwing

      March 2, 2013 at 12:02 am

      My gut tells me that much of the way the findings are being presented is counterfactual, hyperbolic and a house of cards. I think the only way to counter this is to come back with incontrovertible material that has a solid evidence base and that is not simply speculative. Whenever I nicely challenge the Watsons with a contrary or questioning proposition, all I get from them is ‘hmm, we will feed this back to The Team’. This has happened on a few occasions now but The Team never comes back with a reply, considered or otherwise.

      I don’t think posts on Facebook is the answer as that just leaves it open to nutters to fire off angry and empty headed ripostes. Patrick Ruddy was once a fan of the Watsons but he appears now to be totally disillusioned with them. I think also it was very mean of the Watsons to take a sample for DNA testing but never to carry out the test, on the basis of cost they say, but they can somehow find the price of three airtickets this weekend. Also they claim to have tried to make fresh contact with those Ruddy relatives again but without success. It remains to be seen whether any Ruddys will turn up at the interment?

  67. Waxwing

    March 1, 2013 at 8:58 am

    The Latest on Duffys Cut

    In advance of the reinterment on Saturday coming of John Ruddys bones in Ardara in Donegal, the Donegal Democrat has a piece which offers up the current thinking of the Watson Team on the ‘mystery’:

    They seem to have come away from the position that there was mass slaughter and are more inclined to think that all but seven died from cholera rather than that they were murdered. They are categorical that the seven were murdered but this is still a toned down version of some earlier versions of the story.

    As is clear from the Donegal Democrat piece, some probable mistruths or dissimulations are still being fed to the press:

    ‘Twenty one of the group [of 57] were from Donegal, the rest were from Derry and Tyrone’

    ‘Seven people fled but were forced to return’.

    ‘The seven bodies were buried by people who did not know they were burying murder victims’.

    ‘[They were despatched] because they were Irish Catholics. End of Story’.

    There is no agenda or motivation at play in these misrepresentations from the Watsons, it is more a case of loss of objectivity through so close an involvement with the project. To use a pun, it is more a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees and a more objective account of the gaps of knowledge of the Duffy’s Cut saga can be found in the Archives section of this website.

    • Waxwing

      March 1, 2013 at 12:34 pm

      Dealing with the first proposition that 21 were from Donegal:

      John Stamp

      George Doherty
      John Ruddy
      William Patchill*
      John Hunter*
      James Doherty
      William Hasting*
      William Diven
      William Ward
      John Creighton*
      Donal McFadden
      Alex McIlwaine*
      John Long
      Daniel McCahill
      Brian McGourley
      William Elliott*
      David Patchill*
      John Ewing*
      Robert Skelton*
      Thomas Skelton*
      Raymond McElhinney
      George Quigley

      There were enough young male labourers on the John Stamp to make up the number of 21, exactly as the Watsons say. However, they do not explain their insistence that the work squad came off that particular ship rather than the other ships that arrived from Derry within the same time-frame – the Asia, Prudence or Ontario. Also, what is clear is that about half of the crew (asterisked) were not Gaelic-speaking Irishmen at all, despite the Watsons’ insistence.

      • Eileen Breen

        March 1, 2013 at 1:58 pm

        I’m confused by this “list of 21 from Donegal”: The book ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’ p. 68-9 lists those from Donegal asGeorge Doherty,age 28; John Ruddy, age 18; William Putetill, age 20; Daniel McCahill,age25; Bernie McGarty, age 2o; David Patchetill, age 20; Robert Skelton, age 20; Bernard McIllheaney, age 23; George Quigly, age 22. This totals 10. From the book ‘The John Stamp’ we have “21 of the laborers were in their twenties.” 15 of the laborers were in their teens. From Tyrone were James Deveney, Robert McAnamy and Samuel Forbes; from Derry were John McGlone, age 25 and John McClannon, age 24.

    • Waxwing

      March 1, 2013 at 5:28 pm

      An insight into the Ruddy Ardara Interment March 2nd 2013

      From Daily News, Delaware County PA

      ‘Researchers are going ahead with Ruddy’s burial this weekend because of a looming deadline for a documentary film crew that has been following the Duffy’s Cut project. Ruddy’s relatives, who could not be reached for comment, are expected to attend, as are other community members’

      ‘Ruddy’s jaw also had a genetic dental abnormality — a missing molar. It’s a trait that still runs in his family, according to Watson, who said modern-day Ruddys in Ireland contacted him after reading about the discovery. One Ruddy donated a DNA sample to confirm the identification in 2010, but researchers have not had the time nor the money to complete the analysis yet. However, it’s unlikely another body with that bone size and “super-rare” tooth anomaly would be found at the site, said University of Pennsylvania anthropologist Janet Monge, who works with the all-volunteer team’.

    • Eileen Breen

      March 1, 2013 at 10:30 pm

      If the box of bones they are showing in the latest articles are of John Ruddy this is amazing. How do they know he is of small stature when they don’t have the whole skeleton? They have less than a shoebox full. It looks like a partial skull and jawbone. Also they never ran the DNA after all this time! They made over $50,000 on the book. Where did the money go? If John Ruddy wanted to go to Philadelphia willingly, how do they know if he would have wanted to go home to Ireland. He’s not even in the right town. As someone said Inishowen is a good distance from Ardara. On their facebook page: Imaculata University/ Duffy’s Cut is where I saw Patrick Ruddy’s statement saying he thinks this is a lie, although he was trying to say it a little nicer. Can’t wait to see what tomorrow brings!

  68. Eileen Breen

    January 16, 2013 at 1:46 pm

    Thank’s for the link to The Belfast Newsletter. I briefly looked at this site when we were talking about Cholera in Ireland. I found a few articles on Cholera. I liked the site. I’ll have to check it out to see what ships sailed out of there and if they made it to their destination. I found a few articles on ships sailing out of the Derry Ports and what happened to them.I think we have enough evidence to write about the Passenger act and the American passenger act, I was thinking the protection and carriages act protect all except the Africa and lowest income levels.

  69. Eileen Breen

    January 15, 2013 at 3:28 pm

    FFT: I found info on cost of service industry in Ireland, England and Philadelphia.

    A. Apprenticeships (education in a trade) in England and Ireland: a precursor to indentured service.
    B. Passenger Acts in England and US. This could outline an article for us. (The need to protect passengers).
    C. 600 children kidnapped from Abererdeen and a story of one child who returned to sue his captors.
    D. The Year Of Coffin Ships that sailed to Montreal and Quebec in Canada. On Ancestry I found a registry for RC and Anglican parishes that adopted the children.
    E. Several Ships from Derry port where the passengers arrived ill or died. I found ships manifests on Ancestry. Also the Derry Port and the Linen industry and how linen was used in the slave trade in southern US.
    F. Cost of Slavery and indentured service in US
    G. Service industry in Philadelphia after 1829
    H. Current issues and costs of slavery in US and around the world. 27 million in human trafficking, exploitative labor.
    I’ll put up some stats on the Ancestry:Ireland timeline. I’ll look at Ancestry to see if there are ships manifests for slaves. I think I saw there were some. I’ll save the information for after we come back but I just wanted to see if I was on the right track or not.

    • Waxwing

      January 15, 2013 at 11:09 pm

      Belfast Newsletter

      I went for the first time to the Tyrone Local History Society group which meets in Omagh. It is quite a small group but the folks are old hands, very welcoming and friendly. I will continue to attend their monthly meeting but in the meantime I picked up a few snippets.

      You probably knew already but you can read the Belfast Newsletter on-line on Ancestry. So it seems it was right under my nose all along but I begrudge the extra cost entailed as the Ancestry system has me down as an American so my subscription only covers the US. All the local libraries let you view Ancestry free of charge so I will just arrange my weekly schedule to suit.

      Meanwhile, here is the link

  70. Eileen Breen

    January 10, 2013 at 3:04 pm

    Clonmany, Donegal Tithe: 1827: John Ruddy p. 9. Widow Ruddy p 18. 2 Roddy’s and a widow p 38. Edward Ruddy p 48: Ballinaroe. William, Nogher and Bryan Ruddy p 53 in Boherna. p 54: Owen, edward, Neal, Edward, Michael Ruddy. Also lot’s of Duffy’s, Doherty: majority of the landowners, Gonnigle, Kelly, Devlin, Cahill, 1 Barr.

  71. Mary Cornell

    January 6, 2013 at 5:07 am

    Quick question- We have the name Diven as one of our waxwings. The last couple of weeks of going back over our sources, I keep coming across the name Diver in County Donegal. Is there a possibility that this is the name of our waxwing?

    • Don MacFarlane

      January 6, 2013 at 9:17 am

      According to Griffiths Valuation, there is only one instance of the name Diven in Ireland and that belonged to a single lady in Maghera in County Derry. Diver on the other hand was a reasonably common name, mainly to be found in Donegal, around Kilmacrenan, Tullyfern or Killygarvan. These are adjoining parishes on the outskirts of Letterkenny. From my point of view, Diver works but Diven doesn’t.

  72. Mary Cornell

    January 4, 2013 at 8:26 pm

    Don, you make me laugh. It seems that you are chomping at the bit for a chapter or at least the glimpse of one. I picture you sitting at your desk with your editing fingers at the ready poised above the keyboard, your sweatband on your head and a water bottle close by, waiting for the whistle to blow. 😀

    Run-on sentences not withstanding, never fear, a chapter is being crafted. With this particular writing, my modus is to write a section at a time in no particular order or more precisely, in the order that I have the best feeling for the information. Several of the sections have been rewritten several times. You and Eileen refused to stop finding new info.

    Because of the amount of information we have, it is difficult to know what to exclude. I am also trying to remember where the information was found for citing purposes. I think a month away will allow our typing fingers to rest, but you do realize that even though we are not posting, all of us will probably be still looking. There will surely be an e-mail here and there.

  73. Londonderry

    January 4, 2013 at 4:04 pm

    I think he meant Wilmington Delaware, down river from Philly. 🙂

  74. Eileen Breen

    January 4, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    I don’t see the names Houston or McGourley on the memorial. Bernie McGarty was listed on the memorial. I believe we changed his name and the change is on ancestry. List for the memorial is on page 69 in the book. When do you want to take a break? We can work on summerizing the info and start back in Feb?

    • Don MacFarlane

      January 4, 2013 at 3:11 pm

      Starting back in February sounds good to me. I may be heading off to England on business for a few weeks anyhow so mid-February sounds about right to me. Maybe Mary will have been able to bash out a first draft of her chapter as well by then.

      My sense of it all is that we have done a serious amount of headbanging over this project for what is almost six months now and that we deserve a rest! We have come at it from a wide variety of angles, so we have covered the ground very well. Often times (as you say in the US) we have come up with more questions than answers but that is exactly how it should be. If this were a piece of research, which it is suspiciously like at times, this would be the time to come up with a list of hypotheses to be tested so as to sharpen the thinking. In my mind’s eye, we are not quite but almost half-way there with the project but it is definitely time for a breather. Over the next few weeks I will draft something for you all to look over.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 10, 2013 at 9:37 am

        While taking some time out to clear my head and readjust my azimuth (Vic’s metaphor which I rather like) I came across this quote in the Irish Times from Bill Watson. He reported to them that John Ruddy never grew an upper right first molar, a rare genetic defect, and that when the find was reported in Ireland, two dozen members of the Ruddy family contacted Watson. One of them, William Ruddy, travelled to Pennsylvania to give a DNA sample.

        “The body we excavated had a one in a million anomaly,” says Watson. “There are not a million Ruddys and there are not a million people in Donegal, and here’s a Ruddy and he has it and two of his aunts have it and they also have a story in the family of a guy coming over to the US in the 1830s, working on the railroad and vanishing. What are the odds of that? How could it not be him?”

        I am not a mathematician but, just for the sake of the math alone, this dental anomaly occurs in one in three thousand people. Neither am I a philosopher but I think this kind of logical gymnastics or sleight of hand (which usually ends with the performer falling flat on his face) is called tautological.

        In the meantime, I have found a PhD thesis by Dr Pekka Niemenin on the molecular genetics of hypodontia whch I will scan through. The limited amount of reading I had done before now has the PAX9 gene mutation as the cause of asymptomatic singular hypodontia and this has also been connected to a predisposition to lung cancer. Once I have read the thesis I might have found something that can pin this possible red herring down better.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 10, 2013 at 9:48 am

        ‘Maybe, by then John Ruddy will be in his final resting place in Donegal. If it turns out that the bones don’t belong to Ruddy, he’ll still rest in peace in the land where he was born. Irish Center President Vincent Gallagher has donated a gravesite in his family plot in Ardara, County Donegal’.

        “He’ll be right next to my grandparents,” said Gallagher.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 10, 2013 at 8:47 pm

        Research has shown that the prevalence of a missing adult maxillary first molar tooth is of the order of 20 in every 50,000 people. This converts to roughly 40 people with that anomaly in the present-day adult population of Donegal. One can reasonably presume if those people came forward they would not all be Ruddys. As the population of Ireland fell by a third between 1832 and today a reasonable projection would be that 60 people in Donegal at the time of Duffy’s Cut had that anomaly. Therefore the chance of the Duffy Cut body being John Ruddy could be as much as 1 in 30 of the male population, not that the chance of it not being Ruddy is 1 in a million as the Watsons portray.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 11, 2013 at 9:33 am

        Thinking it through again, I am more convinced by William Watson’s logic of the coincidence of a) being a young immature male b) on board one of those four ships c) with that particular dental anomaly and d) with a modern-day counterpart relative. On other occasions Watson has got himself tied up in knots with manufactured odds of one-in-a million for the dental anomaly alone but by doing that he has just caused confusion. If he had stuck with his initial argument I think it has a much sounder basis and it is very nearly but still not quite water-tight as there are at least 25 young males on the John Stamp alone that fit that profile except that noone else has come forward.

        On balance, I am probably prepared to give it to Watson – that has to be John Ruddy? But I have no idea how it would stack up in a modern court of law. Even with the best expert on probability theory, would that coincidence be enough to send an alleged perpetrator to the electric chair? Either way, I wish Watson would hurry up and have the ‘Ruddy’ bones repatriated but not in Messr Gallagher’s family grave in Ardara. It seems to me that Mr Gallagher, who is in no way connected to the Ruddys, is cashing in on the reflected publicity – when does it ever stop? If the Ruddys are claiming the bones why don’t they take responsibility to have them buried. It sounds a bit like, ‘Hold on, I am missing a tooth too, can I have a freebie trip to the US?”.

        It’s too bad about the other sets of bones, however, which now have little or no chance of being repatriated? The lot of them could have been sent to Ireland as a job lot to be buried in Derry City which was their point of departure. That would have been even more poignant? As it is, do the souls belonging to the bones think they are any better off being buried in West Chester where they were allegedly murdered?

      • Mary Cornell

        January 11, 2013 at 5:54 pm

        I do not disagree with Professor Watson that the remains are, in all probability, the remains of John Ruddy. What I question is how he arrived at that conclusion. When the dental anomaly was found and the requests came from Ruddys in Northern Ireland, the only thing that was required for positive identification was DNA testing. I would also have given credence to the family story of a relative who came to America in 1832, never to be heard from again. Once again, DNA to prove or discount. Was there effort made to see if the dental anomaly was also a possibility in any of the other workers on the passenger list in order to rule out the others? Saying that it is one-in-a-million and proving it are two different things.

      • Mary Cornell

        January 11, 2013 at 4:58 am

        More proof of murder?! There were 141 nails in the coffin, not the usual 50 nails. With each article, the Watson’ s seem to have different ‘ proof’ of murder. At the start of the search, the men died from cholera, then it became murder and then progressed to every find pointing to murder. Chronologically speaking,with each article on the excavations, the plot becomes more sinister. It does not seem to be evidence-based , but based more on imagination than anything else.

        As to the nails, more logically, they were afraid of getting cholera.

  75. londonderry

    January 4, 2013 at 10:11 am

    This is great Mary! This is how I feel myself.

    I am continuously amazed why more people don’t feel this way. Our forefathers and mothers were truly remarkable people. Sometimes I feel that we could never live up to their grit, determination and commitment.

    My grandfather was a teacher and when I compare the subjects they took against the subjects our kids take today, there is no comparison…..and no one made straight As.

    Thanks!!! Happy New Year to all!!!

    • Don MacFarlane

      January 4, 2013 at 12:36 pm

      From ‘It’s Not About the Bike’ by Lance Armstrong.

      ‘Definition of being human: a characteristic of people as opposed to God or animals or machines is that they are susceptible to weakness and thereby show qualities of being a man [or woman]. Athletes cultivate an aura of invincibility but they can be fearful, weak, defenseless, vulnerable or fallible [like everyone else]’.

      Lance Armstrong is a hero of mine till someone tells me different.

      • Waxwing

        January 13, 2013 at 4:10 pm

        Yes, I spotted that but I don’t think we get Oprah anymore. I have just finished Lance Armstrong’s book, ‘It’s Not About the Bike’ from ten years ago, before any of these doping allegations came to life. The bottom line for me is that if there is any truth to the allegations, Armstrong must have been seriously wrong-headed and fixated on winning, at the expense of all else including threat to his life, and was at a point just short of being mentally ill. Yes, he was given EPO (erythropoietin) as part of his treatment for a life-threatening cancer but it is altogether a different matter for him to take the drug after his cancer treatment was finished. He was seriously scared of his cancer returning and EPO is known to cause cancer cells to accelerate their growth in anyone who is not on anti-cancer treatment. For me it doesn’t add up.

        BTW If I have been somewhat AWOL it is partly because an impacted wisdom tooth has pulled me up short. I have also just had an invitation to present in Nice, France, at the EPA (European Psychiatric Association) Conference in April on my favourite work-related topic at present, ‘Self-Identity and Holistic Recovery from Critical Cardiac Events’. I have to get a jazzed-up Powerpoint prepared so I will be flitting in and out.

  76. Mary Cornell

    January 4, 2013 at 8:08 am

    Songs, Stories, We are Called!

    In each family there is one who seems called to find the ancestors. To put flesh on their bones and make them live again, to tell the family story and to feel that somehow they know and approve.

    Doing genealogy is not a cold gathering of facts, but instead breathing life into all who have gone before.
    We are the storytellers of the tribe. All tribes have one. We have been called as it were, by our genes.
    Those who have gone before cry out to us; “Tell our Story!”
    So, we do. In finding them, we somehow find ourselves.

    How many graves have I stood before now and wept? I have lost count.
    How many times have I told the ancestors; “You have a wonderful family. You would be proud of us”?
    How many times have I walked up to a grave and felt, somehow, there was love there for me? I cannot say.

    It goes beyond just documenting facts.
    It goes to who I am, and why do I do the things I do.
    It goes to seeing a cemetery about to be lost forever to weeds and indifference and saying; “I can’t let this happen”.

    The bones here, are bones of my bones and flesh of my flesh.
    It goes to doing something about it.
    It goes to pride in what our ancestors were able to accomplish, how they contributed to what we are today.
    It goes to respecting their hardships and losses, joy and grief, their never giving in, or giving up,
    their resoluteness to go on and build a life for their family.

    It goes to deep pride that the fathers fought and some died to make and keep us a nation.
    It goes to a deep and immense understanding that they were doing it for us.
    It is of equal pride and love that our mothers struggled to give us birth.
    Without them, we could not exist and so, we love each one, as far back as we can reach,
    that we might be born who we are, that we might remember them.

    So we do, with love and caring and scribing each fact of their existence,
    because we are they and they are the sum of who we are.
    So, as a scribe called, I tell the story of my family.
    It is up to that one called in the next generation, to answer the call,
    and take my place in the long line of family storytellers.

    — Tom Dunn

    • Don MacFarlane

      January 4, 2013 at 9:51 am


      “I am constantly finding new information on this site. I started going through some of it tonight because of your e- mail and found this. There are a lot of familiar names, even those that we thought were wrong on the manifests. It cannot be a coincidence that so many of these names that were being ejected from their land also appear on the ships’ manifests. They could no longer earn a living in Ireland whether they were farmers or weavers”.


      ‘Good find and there is plenty meat in that. My reading of the list is that as many of those who were being evicted were Protestant as were Catholics. Ditto, they were being evicted as often for overholding as for non-payment. I was curious how so many of these leases became due for renewal at the same time but I think I found the answer in the Hansard report below*.

      I wonder also how many of the court actions arose from agrarian unrest and dissatisfaction with the landlord; how many of the court actions for overholding were successful; how many of the landlords had political aspirations and needed votes; how many of the estates were threatened with being encumbered; how many of the actions were the result of rackrenting? Once I have studied it a bit more, I will run this past Martin Dowling’.

      * The Hansard report in 1847 on a Houses of Parliament debate on the subject.
      In the late 1820s, an extension was brought in that without a by-your-leave the right to evict was bumped up in Ireland from property valued at £20 per annum rent to more than double at £50 per annum.


      “I didn’t know if this could be a resource for County Donegal”.


      Thanks for that. I think I have come across it before and most likely it would not apply to our waxwings but I will double check. It was a duplicitous ploy by the new post-1800 British Government to deny to the less well-off, which included most Catholics, the right to vote. With the relaxation of the penal laws that year (1829) they did not want a flood of Catholics voting so they bumped up by five times the value of the land owned that qualified a person to vote.

      From all of that and if I understand the situation correctly, by dint of political manoeuvring in London and sleight of hand, a situation was evolving in Ireland precisely at the same time that the bottom was falling out of the linen industry – sitting on land in Ireland that was valued at £10 per year rent entitled you to vote; sitting on land of up to £50 per year rent entitled you to be evicted.

      Vic would have certain thoughts on this. A near facsimile of the situation had happened with his ancestors 150 years earlier – clearly little in Human Rights had changed for the better in Ireland in the meantime.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 4, 2013 at 1:51 pm

        Almost all of 797 people in County Donegal that were listed on the site you put up were on the list for overholding. It was either pay up or get out for these folks.
        1813: Catholic relief Bill introduced by Grattan was defeated.

        1816: Failure of the potato crop causes famine. Typhus epidemic Aug – Oct

        1817-1819 Typhus epidemic kills 50,000 people in Ireland.

        1820: Grattan dies.

        1821: Potato crop fails Sept – Nov

        1822: Fever follows famine in the west of Ireland June -Dec

        1826: Act providing for uniform valuation of lands and tenements for the purpose of local taxation. Richard Griffith appointed commissioner of valuation.

        1826: Fever epidemic and collapse of the linen industry in Dublin, Belfast, Cork and other towns.

        1829: Relief Act: Allows Catholics to enter parliament, belong to any corporation and hold higher offices in state. Catholic Emancipation. Act raising county franchise from 40s. to 10 pound freehold

        1831: Tithe War begins

        1832: Asiatic Cholera appears in Belfast and Dublin and spread throughout Ireland. Lasts until 1833.

        From: The Course Of Irish History

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 4, 2013 at 6:05 pm

        That looks like a pretty ‘neat’ timeline to me and it provides a nice skeleton to work around. Can you slot in some extra dates as well to do with introduction of industrialisation of the linen industry, introduction of the Passenger Act that quartered the cost of travel, encumbering of estates and anything of significance on the US side of things such as the reduction of the price of land in Ohio, any change to indenturing and the slave trade or anything else you can think of? I would also start the timeline in 1796.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 5, 2013 at 1:55 am

        The timeline I put up was just for background for what information that was put up on 1/4/13 about the Donegal page you put up. I can look at what you asked and put up a timeline for this. I put a lot up on the Ireland Timeline Family tree on Ancestry but I can try to add more US info.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 5, 2013 at 9:39 am

        M Carleo

        I also found this last night. It is a list of renters of Lord Abercorn from 1789. I am not sure how to read the table on annual rent. Does the first column show the present rent and the next column the new rents of the new leases? If it does, some of the rents have tripled.

        Editorial Comment

        Some thoughts spring to mind when reading this list:

        There would be some connection between not signing a 21 year lease due for renewal and being called to Court for overholding if you still continued to sit on your rented property?
        Rents would not be hiked up once every twenty years, they would be the equivalent of index-linked?
        The rental would be proportionate to the value of the property and higher for good-quality arable land that a living could be made from?
        For the better-quality land, it would be a poor gesture for a young able-bodied son to hike off to America if he were needed at home?
        For the poorer-quality land, there would be no living to be made from it and a son might have to emigrate for all to subsist?
        If a son disappeared to the likes of Duffy’s Cut (if he came from a poor family) and never was heard of again, that land-tenant might well appear in Court soon after for failure to pay rent?
        This kind of table could usefully be cross-checked against other lists for landowners of one acre or more. I think I might have to buy a fresh copy of Martin Dowling’s book.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 5, 2013 at 9:49 am

        Excellent Find from Celticknot

        Editorial Comment:

        These records beg the question why emigrants would travel to PA from Ireland and other European countries to end up in doorways in Philadelphia. Presumably these were not indentured labourers or they would have had roofs over their heads? Presumably also they would not be recorded in censuses or street directories as they had no address?

      • Mary Cornell

        January 5, 2013 at 6:52 pm

        If you cross index the names on the Ejected list with the 1789 and1794 renters lists for the Abercorn estate, the recurring names were:
        Armour, Colhoun, Gallagher, Gamble, Lowry, Moore and Park

        And if rent was based on the value of the land, Colhoun and Lowry rented the more valuable land sections. All of the enactment petitions for Abercorn were for overholding.

  77. Eileen Breen

    January 2, 2013 at 9:44 pm

    I’m trying to put in the changes you put in on Duffy Temp site. I’m up to McHenry

    • Don MacFarlane

      January 2, 2013 at 10:07 pm

      I have got a replacement laptop now and I intend to update the spreadsheet soon. If you have made any changes already on it, could you send me any updated version of the spreadsheet so I don’t inadvertently spoil any other work that is not my own.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 3, 2013 at 1:17 am

        Taking a step back from what we have been doing of late, we don’t need to locate the waxwings to prove the Watsons wrong. ‘Too many possibilities’ does the job just as well. I think we have ‘planted the bait’ for whoever wants to respond on Ancestry or wherever, thereby giving the personal angle with accounts such as the McQuillan/Diamond story, plus we have ‘nailed’ various myths, assumptions and misconceptions. All we need to do now is to sit back, consolidate what we have, run some basic statistics from the spreadsheet, and write something up after a suitable lapse of time.

        Some basic results that (off the top of my head) we have so far include the ‘discoveries’ that:

        Most of our waxwings are Ulster-Scots
        Most signed up to the Act of Union
        Few were registered on Tithe Applotment
        Few were from Derry
        Most of the Donegal and Tyrone ones came from within a 15 mile radius of Camus in Tyrone and the Laggan area of Donegal.
        Few were to be found in the Philadelphia street directory
        A good percentage were possibly to be found in rural PA and OH.
        There is some evidence of chains of migration, firstly through Wilmington NC.
        Few came from the Linen Triangle.

        There is a lot more to come out yet and that is just for starters.
        In short, we can afford to take a breather and assimilate what we have found already.
        Even with what we have already, there is enough material there for a book.
        If Mary tidies up a chapter for ‘The Sea is Wide’ we can start to look to the next phase.
        In other words, a month’s break would be in order? This suggestion should not be taken as a sign that the project is wearing thin on me, anything but.

  78. Mary Cornell

    January 2, 2013 at 4:08 pm

    This is a database of over 40,000+ names of lost Irish immigrants in ads placed in the Boston Pilot by relatives and friends. Only up to the D’ s. None of our waxwings, so far, but the list does throw up a lot of hints to where some of our names might possibly be from originally. Many of the names are quite detailed as to birthplace. There are surnames that match our list that give a birthplace; possible links to our waxwings. The list is also very helpful in seeing migrations by family and county. From the few samplings, emigration from Counties Donegal, Tyrone and Derry occurred earlier than those in the south, as we already knew. The migrations of families out of Ireland can also be seen and some of the relatives knew where their missing relatives traveled to within the States once they arrived. Ex: Philadelphia>Ohio>Wisconsin.

    BTW . There are a lot of missing Breens on the list, Eileen.

    • Don MacFarlane

      January 2, 2013 at 4:58 pm

      Thanks for that but there may be a typo (?) as the link does not work – at least for me it doesn’t.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 2, 2013 at 5:38 pm

        On the Boston College site there were a lot of resources. I think you can type in Boston College and Irish studies you may find it. When I looked at their ancestry class I saw the link Mary put up. I’ll have to check it out for missing Breen’s.

      • Mary Cornell

        January 2, 2013 at 6:39 pm

        Did you try typing the URL in the address bar?

        One more time-

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 2, 2013 at 6:51 pm

        Thanks, it worked this time.

  79. Mary Cornell

    January 2, 2013 at 4:00 am

    All roads seem to come back to John Ruddy. I found another article on the Watson’ s investigation. This time when the female remains were found, WW said that the remains were most likely those of either Catherine Burns or Elizabeth Devine. According to Watson , this is based on the ‘ disappearance’ of these women and the fact they were on the John Stamp. Mind you, the remains were only recently exhumed at the time and there had been no forensic test conclusions presented. What also bothers me is the comments section at the bottom where a P. Ruddy asks if the remains were definitively those of John Ruddy. Someone answered that yes, it is definitive based on the dental anomaly present in Liam Ruddy, from Inoshowen, who had initiated the Ruddy request, and the same dental anomaly present in the remains. Pretty much a done deal, so they say.

    No doubt, this is your Patrick Ruddy who is just as amazed as we are that definitives are thrown about without any verifiable proof given. Where is the DNA? There should be DNA results by now. I would have expected that when dealing with an actual family member more care would be taken in giving answers.

    • Don MacFarlane

      January 2, 2013 at 11:23 am

      I must ask Patrick Ruddy is he missing his maxillary first molar tooth. If so, that could be as indicative for him as DNA findings. The Watsons have somewhat exagggerated the rarity of such an event as they put it as one in millions, except if running in families, which is nonsense. The true percentage is more like one in 3,000 of the population, which is still highly significant. I don’t begrudge the Watsons making that leap but to go further and conclude the labourers were all off the John Stamp is for me a step too far.

      • Mary Cornell

        January 3, 2013 at 6:32 pm

        Googling Ruddy/Templecrone, I found this site. Someone had researched Ruddy. I am not sure of the accuracy as there weren’t any citations as to sources, but for our purposes, here is the list.


        Bryan Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
        Daniel Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
        *Ellen Ruddy . Templecrone, Rutland Island or Inishmacadurn
        James Ruddy Clonca, Laraghirril
        James Ruddy . Clonmany, Urrismenagh
        *Patrick Ruddy . Templecrone, Rutland Island or Inishmacadurn
        William Ruddy . Inishmacsaint

        Here is the site. It has Ruddy’ s in Ireland and the main concentration seems to be in County Mayo.

        No waxing hits yet on the Boston College site.

  80. Mary Cornell

    January 1, 2013 at 6:43 am


    • Don MacFarlane

      January 1, 2013 at 9:26 am

      And to start the New Year off, I have just been contacted by a Pstrick Ruddy (a presumed contender for relative of John Ruddy) who is highly dubious of the Watsons and their agenda, whatever that might be!

      He also attached what I presume to be a festive greetings

      He asked me whether I could confirm that John Ruddy came from Templecrone, presumably where the Watsons have placed him, and according to Griffiths that would be Rutland Island off the West coast of deepest and Gaelic-speaking Donegal.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 1, 2013 at 12:59 pm

        Off on the Best Foot

        A quick summary of where I think we have come from and where we could be going in 2013.

        The most significant events of 2013 have been:

        The Derry site had been dormant for a long time and almost extinct. Although visitor activity continued apace, very few visitors posted comments and that left me that I was losing interest in the site to such a degree that I was ready to jack it in.

        Then Eileen and Mary came along, Eileen with her amazing enthusiasm and Mary with her attention to detail and objectivity. The two of them sparked off each other to such an extent that my own flagging interest in Irish social history of the period began to revive.

        After fishing around a wide range of topics the one that stuck was Duffy’s Cut, dug up by Mary although known to me from before, and the rest is history.

        Three new pages were add to the site but the FTT page is the one that has lit the torchpaper, with over a thousand posts over six months – most of them from Eileen and no outside interest seemingly apparent but the visits to the site are double that of last year.

        I am content to have the Derry site mosey along as a bog-standard genealogy site, which is what by far the most of the visitors are seeking from it. There is a new person about, Debbie Lapeyrouse from Mississippi, who reminds me of Eileen with her enthusiasm and she could very well come on board. We will wait and see as her focus of interest for now is primarily the Scottish Highland that is on my sister-site, However, she has other intriguing branches on her family tree, the Blakeneys of Mount Blakeney in Galway, who were central to the colonisation of Ulster at the time of Oliver Cromwell.

        We appear regrettably to have lost Winnie Woodhall due to some petty misunderstanding on her part and she could have been a very valuable resource. Ah well. The most recent addition is Vic Barnett, who actually with his PA Leslie inspired and constructed the prototype for this site. I am gratified that Vic sees value in the Duffy’s Cut Inquest which will remain the primary focus of this site in 2013.

        As far as the direction the research will take in 2013, for that is what it is, I think we will need Vic’s azimuth to see the project through. Much of the time it seems like a polar expedition in a snowstorm. I have a hope that enough will have been achieved by 2014 to enrich my planned visit to Lancaster County and to the Watsons if I have not fallen out with them by then!

      • Eileen Breen

        January 1, 2013 at 1:02 pm

        Awesome! How did you find him? This area seems to be remote area for someone to be recruited from. Why not places closer to the Foyle River? Why did the Watsons feel he was from Templecrone, Rutland Island? Also wouldn’t the language barrier pose a problem for working in US?

        Happy New Year Everyone!

      • Eileen Breen

        January 1, 2013 at 1:26 pm

        The 1901 and 1911 censuses for Templecrone, Rutland Island, Donegal have no Ruddys listed. There is a Boyle family. I think I read that someone with the last name Boyle came to the service for the Duffy’s Cut memorial. There is a researcher with an email address for Rutland Island listed on the Rutland Island site. You had put him in Malin, Ballyshannon, Donegal. I put both these places under his name on Ancestry. I quickly tried to do a search for Ruddy on Ancestry with residence Rutland Island but so far nothing has come up. There was one listing for a Ruddy in Donegal but not Rutland Island and several in Philadelphia.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 1, 2013 at 1:46 pm

        Rutland Island is really just a piece of rock, almost a stone’s throw reach from Burtonport and it was finally evacuated of people about fifty years ago. The further-out island, Arranmore, has people still living on it and a ferry goes there (it takes about ten minutes) from Burtonport. I suspect these particular Ruddys all moved away from Rutland Island long ago, perhaps ending up in Arranmore Island, Burtonport or Glenties if they stayed local.

        Patrick Ruddy posted a message on my site which supports the ‘Sea is Wide’ book. I hope to keep up a correspondence with him and winkle more information from him. I suspect he was the person who originally contacted the Watsons and that set the memorial thing going. He expressed disillusionment with the Watsons as there had been talk of a DNA project (he might even have given a sample) as he has heard nothing further from them for two years and he thinks it has all died a death. It was Patrick that mentioned Templecrone, the parish Rutland Island is in, and I presume the name was banded about between them. Watch this space!

      • Eileen Breen

        January 1, 2013 at 2:16 pm

        I found a Tithe record for John Ruddy 1828 in Cleaghbeg, Donegal. The map puts it near Glenties. Did you want to write to the researcher for Rutland Island? I can send you her email address or you can find it under the Rutland 1901 and 1911 census?

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 1, 2013 at 2:23 pm

        I think I’ll wait till I hear back from Patrick Ruddy first to see what else he has got but do feel free, if you want, to chase up the Glenties or Rutland end in the meantime. The name was so scarce in Donegal I have to think they were all connected in some way anyhow.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 1, 2013 at 3:40 pm

        I have checked these censuses and note that almost all the Ruddys are from the Inishowen peninsula, nowhere near Templecrone/Rutland/Glenties.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 3, 2013 at 1:37 pm

        On Find-a-Grave:

        Someone put up a memorial to John Ruddy and says that the body was returned to Donegal. If Patrick Ruddy writes again can you ask if the body is buried in Templecrone, Rutland Island or somewhere else in Donegal. I’m not sure if they made a memorial to all the laborers at Duffy’s Cut. I haven’t had a chance to look it up yet.

      • Eileen Breen

        January 2, 2013 at 2:24 pm

        The article Mary put up doesn’t mention Templecrone. I tried to see if Patrick or Liam Ruddy were on Ancestry and I don’t see their trees under their names. There are a lot of people researching the Ruddy name. Two trees have links to PA but in the 1890s.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 2, 2013 at 6:46 pm

        Extant Donegal Baptism Records

        The only baptismal records for CofI (I) and Presbyterian (P) relevant to our waxwings are from dates as listed below.

        Clondavaddog 1794 – on; Donegal 1808 – on; Drumhome 1719 – on; Fahan Upper 1762 – on; Inver 1805 – on; Killygarvan 1706 – on; Raphoe 1771 – on; Tullyaughnish 1798 – on.

        Donaghmore 1803 – on; Ramelton 1806 – on.

        Records are generally unavailable for this period.

      • Don MacFarlane

        January 2, 2013 at 7:01 pm

        Extant Tyrone Baptismal Records

        The only baptism records available for our waxwings are:

        Moy (Clonfeacle) 1814 – on; Clonoe 1810 – on; Camus 1773 – on.

  81. londonderry

    December 29, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    This is all most interesting to me… an aside I don’t know if I’ve ever seen such a group of
    Type A personalities. Don’t you folks take a break during the holidays?

    One of the mysteries in my Barnett family was John Barnett’s (born 1678 in Derry) occupation. I am pretty sure his father was a wool manufacturer, read weaver, when he moved to Ulster from lowland Scotland. When he emigrated in 1729 with his family he bought a farm in Tinglestown just east of Harrisburg. Your post indicates that it was common for weaver’s to also farm and vice versa. That explains a lot. He probably did both farm and weave. Another mystery is that his oldest son, my GGGGGrandfather moved to Amherst County, Va leaving the Pa farm. This has always puzzled me since he should have been the first in line to inherit the farm. I suspect, without proof, that he didn’t want the tough life that his family had and wanted to strike out on his own. It also could have been a disagreement. It is an example of a family not staying together as they did in Scotland and Ulster. My theory is the chance to own land was too attractive to a land constraint Ulster environment.

    I am half way through Duffy’s Cut and enjoying it. Never suspected the many positive and negative facets of the congruence of religions. Seems to me that the Ulster crucible has been one of the world’s greatest examples of turmoil sparked by injustice and insensitivity. I don’t think my Presbyterian /Methodist family experienced the environment confronting the waxwings. I also don’t think they ever disparaged the Catholics albeit they didn’t like the religion. Playing Notre Dame in football was like fighting the Kremlin. On the book, I’m still reserving judgment.

  82. Eileen Breen

    December 29, 2012 at 12:40 am

    The Gender Division Of Labor In The Production Of Textiles in The 18th Century in PA: This was an article about weavers and spinners in Chester County PA in 18th century.

    In New England, rural woman were the core of the linen industry. In South Eastern PA the men were at the center of the industry. Male weavers in Chester County, PA retained control over their looms and weaving. They maintained a home based textile industry well into the 18th century. They maintained a balance between skilled craftsmanship and farming. They exported flax seed to Ireland which depended on American flax for its linen production. Ireland used the mature flax seed they produced for fine linen products and the new seed for other linen production needs. The men and woman from one family would work together. Woman worked as spinners and the men wove and finished the cloth. The work was done in the cities rather than the countryside as it was done in New England. Philadelphia was known for it’s fancy goods.

    Weavers of fine cloth were also active in agriculture. This established an international need for its products. Weaving was done by hand until water powered mills came into use. In Europe woman were excluded from weaving and finishing in cloth production. This policy continued in Pennsylvania. In early America women in rural communities were responsible for cloth production for commercial and home use. By the 18th century there was a division of labor within the linen industry.

    In Pennsylvania, men were artisans who combined their craft with farming. They experienced a lifestyle similar to Europeans. They worked with an extended labor force that utilized free labor, apprentices and paid workers. Records for the weavers are located in Probate records, tax lists that included loom owners, books, newspapers and court records. In Pennsylvania, English, Scots Irish and German immigrants were involved in weaving and the linen industry. The majority of households in PA that owned looms also were involved in farming.

    A woman was trained to operate the spinning wheel. She may have purchased her own or inherited the spinning wheel. In turn, she would hand down the spinning wheel to her daughter. This was observed in probate records. Woman did the spinning for commercial needs and for her family. A woman may have her daughter earn the trade of spinning by becoming an indentured servant. In the early 1700s thirty per cent of households had a spinning wheel. By the late 1800s 65% of homes did. Wealthier woman hired free and hired labor to do the spinning in her home then would hire the men to weave and finish the cloth. The woman spent their income on personal items.

    The weavers accounted for 13-20% of the taxable income in Chester County, PA. Men outnumbered women in the 17th to 18th centuries in PA. Males spent 50% of their income on personal needs and the rest was used to purchase land. The weavers started out as apprentices with no land or family. His production of cloth was at its highest. By midlife he had a family and he was able to purchase land. He then had to hire an assistant to help with the work. He maintained a supervisory role in the industry. By the end of his career his status increased as he has earned enough to establish his own woollen business with multiple workers. His wife might also have worked with him as a spinner. The majority (40%) of weavers were single, 25% were married without children.

    Maybe our weavers are in probate records and wills in Chester County, PA?

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 29, 2012 at 11:11 am

      Great stuff, all of it. Great minds think alike as I have only yesterday purchased ‘The Impact of the Domestic Linen Industry in Ulster’ by W.H. Crawford who did his PhD on this subject. I have it in my hand as I write but I have not got stuck into it yet. Just glancing at a table in the book, the change in the Size of Holdings in the Brownlow Estate in Central Ulster during the latter half of the 1700s went from an even spread in the size of holdings, there was a gradual chopping up of the largest holdings of 100 acres so that by 1800 most holdings were 5-10 acres (30%) and 10-20 acres (20%). There were 400 holdings in total, most of them on leases of at least thirty years.

      Crawford goes on to describe the ‘Linen Triangle’, a name given to the area of Ulster south of Lough Neagh where the finest linens were produced. He includes in that a part of Tyrone which would take in some of our waxwings – the townlands of Clonfeacle or Moy (725,40%), Killyman (204,40%), Clonoe (72,16%), Donaghenry or Stewartstown (268,80%), Tullyniskan (114,50%), Drumglass (76,40%), Donaghmore (540,40%) and Dungannon (160,80%). The first figure in brackets refers to the census number of the religion of the household and the second refers to what percentage of the population of that townland was Protestant. I reckon that not all of our waxwings were Protestant, but about three-quarters were.

      Looking at our own demographic breakdown, our waxwing weavers who said they were from Tyrone were – Aiken, Donaghey, Foster, Livingstone, McRory, Potter and Rice. Of these, listed in Griffiths for Clonfeacle were Aiken and McRory; for Killyman were Donaghy and Rice; for Clonoe were Donaghy and McRory; for Donaghenry were Donaghy and McRory; for Tullyniskan was McRory; for Drumglass were Donaghy and McRory; for Donaghmore were Donaghy and McRory; and for Dungannon is part of Drumglass. The inference that comes from all of that is that there were few if any weaver emigrants from parishes in the Linen Triangle. A cross-check of Clinfeacle shows a 40/60 split so that theory will require further testing down the line – mainly because most of the waxwings who were possibly from Clonfeacle were in fact from Donegal or went on the Asia, which did not list county, or were women and juveniles so numbers for testing were insufficient.

      However, on balance the picture has face validity at least – weaving families from the Linen Triangle parishes held on tightly to their source of income and did not welcome outsiders to share their largesse. Those not fortunate enough to be born into weaving families with at least five acres had to look abroad. The weavers from Donegal may be similar but Crawford’s book does not cover that county. However, the same intuitive logic would still apply -if the waxwing did not come from the Laggan area of Donegal adjoining Letterkenny he or she would have been kept out. There were few waxwings from Derry which is another puzzle.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 29, 2012 at 12:55 pm

        Donegal Weavers Listed on Spinning Wheel Entitlement.

        Only two waxwing names from Donegal were listed as weavers.

        Doack – Tully, Claughboyne, Clondavaddog, Raphoe.
        Ewing – Donaghmore, Templemore, Inch, Rye, Fahan, Moville, Conwal.

        This tends to confirm that the only weavers amongst the emigrants of Summer 1832 were from poorer parts of counties Tyrone and Donegal.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 29, 2012 at 1:29 pm

        In Ireland did the weavers receive money from the government to maintain their weaving business. In PA they were taxed on their income.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 29, 2012 at 1:48 pm

        You said that the linen triangle produced the finest linens. The Farmers in PA sent American flax to Ireland not for the finest grade of linen but one step down from that. So maybe poorer weavers who were edged out of the finest linen trade could still weave other grades of linen. It probably was a competitive business.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 29, 2012 at 2:56 pm

        Yes. I read in one of my recent sources that the poorer types of fabric made in Ireland were sent back to the US to make clothes for the slaves on the plantations. I think there were hierarchies of weavers and some made more money than others. It still doesn’t take away from the emerging fact, if it is the case, that those weavers in the Linen Triangle did not by and large emigrate to the US. It will require some more digging to verify what could prove to be a novel and as yet unpublished finding.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 29, 2012 at 3:01 pm

        I don’t know the ins and outs of the economics yet but it has been extensively looked at by Marilyn Cohen in her book, ‘The Dynamics of Capitalism in the Irish Linen Industry’ (2003). It is rather an expensive volume so for now I will have to be content with what I have, coupled with

      • Eileen Breen

        December 29, 2012 at 12:59 pm

        That’s interesting our waxwing’s were not from the linen triangle. I forgot to put in that The researcher who did the article about weavers in Philadelphia found that the weavers in their younger years said they were weavers but later in life after their families had grown and they established their own woolen business they called themselves farmers. In their later years they did less weaving and hired young men to work for him. It would be interesting to see if the farmers were also weavers in their early lives and to see if they grew flax. The Presbyterians wanted smaller land holdings. A few of the records showed their property was worth $800.00 in early years and%1500.00 in their later years. This may fit that they were weavers who depended on farming and their income improved as they established their business.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 31, 2012 at 10:40 pm

        From: Enterprising Elite And The Boston Associates And The World They Made: (mills in New England) The farmers daughters would come to the cities to work for the mills that the Boston Associates owned. They were required to have high moral statndards and to go to church each week. They lived in boarding houses and matron would supervise them in the house. They were paid better than most professions for woman and the work was consistent throughout the year unlike teaching and domestic service. The position provided them with a better status than domestic service and they were paid in cash which was a relatively new way of paying employees. Woman were required to save their money to help pay for expenses at home, save for a dowry or a brother’s education. They worked 12 hours per day, six days per week in poor conditions. Breaks were rigid and supervised. The loud sounds of the machinery was constant. Workers would be watched for signs that they were not able to keep up with the production and would be let go thus no longer be able to earn a living. Mill owners actively recruited woman a s a source of cheap labor for the mills. Woman were seen as a temporary employees that would stay until they save enough money then would leave. Waiting lists were long. Woman were seen as part of the machinery of the mill. The coarser lesser grades of cloth was more desirable than fancy linens. Mill owners at first could not sell an improved higher grade of cloth. They sold it to an auctioneer who sold it at 30 cents per yard and the mill owner earned a one percent commission from the sale for each yard sold. Mill owners recruited whole families from farming communities with several small children to work in the mills. They would be paid on store credit in the mills. In order to keep peace in the mills the mill owners knew they had to start to pay woman a higher rate or they would find opportunities elsewhere or go to work in southern states where the wages were higher.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 29, 2012 at 4:09 pm

        What a Lazy Lot?

        ‘Weaver households had a higher preference for leisure and with the arrival of the linen trade they were able to meet their consumption needs with less effort. Their surplus earnings also meant they could enter marriages which they must otherwise have postponed and which led to population growth. They had low education and narrow horizons as they had already reached their ‘upper bound’. Others contributed the population growth, not to earlier marriage, but to absence of push factors compelling migration’ and a decline in infant mortality’.

        Strangely, this quote from Jane Gray’s book on the linen industry refers not to Irish folk but to their competitors in Flanders in Belgium. Whether lazy and primitive or not, something the Irish and the Belgians were alleged to have in common, both places produced the finest linen, streets ahead of anywhere else.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 30, 2012 at 12:40 am

        Further quotes from Jane Gray

        ‘A shortfall of female labour at the end of the eighteenth century led to quicker industrialization in Ireland’.

        ‘Despite wages that were amongst the lowest in Europe, the process of industrialization in Ireland was confined to a small enclave’.

        ‘Mokyr noted that Ireland was the only country in Europe to experience large-scale outmigration in the first half of the nineteenth century’.

        ‘During the first half of the eighteenth century, Irish linen increasingly substituted for European imports on the English market’.

        ‘Potato cultivation led to narrower birth intervals because women spent less time breast – feeding’.

        ‘Women and children were unemployed and they occupied themselves in poorly remunerated tasks because they had nothing better to do’.

        ‘The wage-gap between skilled and unskilled labour was markedly smaller in Scotland than it was in Ireland where it increased even further in the early nineteenth century’.

        ‘Linen weavers’ wages were much lower than for other skilled craftsmen. Irish weavers earned 66% of other craftsmen whereas Scottish weavers earned 80%’.

        ‘Irish weavers earnes 1s 5d per day for fine linen and 1s 2d for course linen in the 1770s, compared to 1s 9d for masons and carpenters. Thirty years later, weavers earned little more although they could earn up to 2s 6d per day when trade was brisk’.

        ‘During the last quarter of the eighteenth century, increase in demand for coarser linens drew men into the business with less training. Duing this period, outlying markets had a greater share of growth in input than the Linen Triangle’.

        ‘In the linen industry, because of the technological bottleneck, men were outnumbered by women [who earned less than half as much] by a factor of four to one’.

        ‘A weaving household of four adult women to spin and one adult male to weave earned less than two unskilled labourers’.

        Table 2 (page 50)

        In the same fifty year period spanning the second half of the eighteenth century, in Scotland and Flanders the population increased by 50%. In Ireland it doubled, producing a surplus population of 2 million people.


        The arithmetic on page 25 of the paper by Prof Jane Gray of Maynooth University draws one to a shocking conclusion. Women spinners (spinsters) in Ireland were little better than slave labour who worked for nothing in a cottage industry that kept the Irish Linen industry afloat. The exploitation was compounded and perpetuated by the Spinning Wheel Premiums which entitled a weaving family to have four spinning wheels and a loom.

        This offer was a mirage of hope for families living on a potato-line (instead of a breadline) as merchants before long refused to ‘put out’ their flax for spinning as it robbed them of profit, hence a drive towards emigration for young unmarried women. Meanwhile, women who were already married became burdened with small families as working in the potato fields was not conducive to the natural contraceptive that was breastfeeding.

        Commentary: This Professor Gray could be a very useful resource to call upon as she knows her stuff and could be a kindred spirit as she comes from Indiana.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 30, 2012 at 4:47 pm

        Weaver Families

        Ship John Stamp

        Doak – John (19) and Amelia (17).
        Ewing – Robert (18) and John (16).
        Skelton – Thomas (22) and Robert (20).

        McRory – James (18), Heather (18), Edward (17).
        Anderson – Mary (22) and Miriam (21).

        Laughlin – Joseph (24) and Jane (24)
        McConnell – William (21) and Robert (18).

        Ship Asia
        Henderson – David (30), Mary (26) and Jane.
        Gallagher – William (30), Mary (30) and Eliza.
        Culbertson – Letitia (21) and John (20).
        Shields – William (21) and Mary (21).
        Bradley – Michael (25), Peter (22) and Patrick (21).

        Ship Ontario
        Aiken family.

        Ship Prudence

        There are very few sibling couples or large family units listed as weavers who travelled to PA that summer but plenty of young weaver bachelors. Unless some of the young females registered as spinsters are from weaver families, there is no indication of poverty traps in weaving families having been the reason for emigration.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 30, 2012 at 11:43 pm

        It’s sad to think the weavers and spinners worked hard but got nothing in return. Perhaps that’s why they weren’t motivated to produce more. I had a GG grandfather from Alsace that came here to work as a weaver. I always thought he had a skill. Someone decided that weavers and spinners were unskilled to keep the costs of labor down and to boost their profits. When we went to Donegal we saw the weaver in the shop working. It definitely took skill to produce the fabric he made.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 31, 2012 at 12:12 am

        Statistical Notes from Bandon in County Cork 1844

        There were 126 schools with almost five thousand pupils for a population of 80-odd thousand. One in six people could read and write, three times as many could neither read nor write, and the rest could read only, meaning that half the people could read.

        One family in three lived in mud cabins of one room; one in three lived in mud cottages of more than one room and with a window; one quarter of families lived in farm houses of solid construction; and the rest (1 in 30) lived in a superior class of house.

        One in 50 were farmers who had more than five acres; 60 per cent of adult males were labourers; and one in three adults of working age had stable employment.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 31, 2012 at 12:17 am

        Kindred Spirits

        ‘A well remembered donation to famine relief was that made by the Choctaw tribe of American Indians who in 1847 sent a donation of $710, the equivalent of more than $100,000 today. They had a special affinity with the hungry and those who had lost their homes, since it was only 16 years since their tribe had been made homeless and walked the “Trail of Tears” from Oklahoma to Mississippi, along which many of them died.

        This extraordinary gift from a people who were themselves impoverished has never been forgotten. In 1997, the 150th anniversary of that generous gesture, a group of Irish people walked alongside members of the Chokraw Nation along the 500 mile Trail of Tears in reverse, back to the Choctaw homeland’

      • Eileen Breen

        December 30, 2012 at 2:00 pm

        Perhaps producing the finest linen they could get a high wage for it. So those receiving larger wages didn’t need to work as much large wages as they produced smaller amounts of higher quality qoods. I don’t think they were lazy. I think they produced what they needed to maintain their life style, to establish a business plan for their children’s future and to enjoy the good life!

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 29, 2012 at 6:06 pm

      Tied to the Spinning Wheel

      According to Almquist and others, hand-spinning of linen was correlated with getting married younger and having larger families. Horrible thought, but most of these young women on these ships were already past the age of getting married? Their ages were 25, 22, 26, 22, 22, 26, 20, 22, 20, 24, 26, 20, 26, 20, 20, 26, 24, 22,18, 20, 22, 20, 24, 18, 24, 18, 21.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 31, 2012 at 12:56 pm

      I’m still trying to locate probate and land records for our weavers / farmers. I couldn’t find it on Ancestry. Perhaps BTW: The comment reply box is not at the end of this page as it usually is

  83. Eileen Breen

    December 28, 2012 at 5:32 am

    I looked at family groups from the Ontario. I may have found the Ryan family.

    Christopher b 1896 and Mary b 1800 from Rossgier, Donegal and their children: Eleanor “Ellen”, b 1821 Fanny “Frances” b 1823, Nancy b 1825, Mary b 1827 and Christopher H. b 1831.

    1860 census: Urbana, Champaign, OH lists: Christopher, Mary, Fanny, Christopher (sailor). 1850 census lists just Mary and Christopher (Parents). Family is not listed in 1870 or 1880 census in OH. 1840 census doesn’t list people’s names except for Christopher Ryan: 1 male: age 10-14, 1 male: 40-49, 1 female: 15-19, 1 female 30-39 and 1 female; 50-59. There is a 86 yr old Fanny Ryan listed with Ryans on one of the censuses. Don’t know the relationship.

    Fanny “Francis” Married a George Ketchum. Her obit from Find a Grave Ohio (Urbana Newspaper Abstract 3 Apr 1890) says the parents are Mary and Christopher Ryan who came to Urbana, Champaign, OH from Londonderry, Ireland. Frances died at her sister’s home in NY, her sister being “Ellen”, or Eleanor Columba Anderson, who was married to William Marshall Anderson (there is a profile on him from family trees that’s interesting). Her children are listed under her profile.

    Sister, Anna Ryan, married Admiral Febiger (he has a profile from family trees and he was prominent in the Civil War). She’s not on the Ontario* I can’t find anything on sister: Nancy Ryan

    Christopher H. Ryan was a sailor in 1860 census. I found a few Civil war records but I’m not sure if they belong to him. Next of kin is William Ryan. The only William we have is William Marshall Anderson.

    The tree is on Ancestry under the Ontario.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 28, 2012 at 5:39 am

      I looked at families A-R so far on the Ontario. I went through family groups on the John Stamp and Prudence 2x and the updates are already listed. Mary and you did all the ships as well. So after the Ontario is done I think we have all been through all the ships’ names a few times. I didn’t get to put up all the changes for the place names from 2 weeks ago.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 28, 2012 at 9:51 am

      Well done with that. Maybe it was worthwhile going to the trouble to find out what Prossgear really meant?

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 28, 2012 at 10:34 am

      BTW There is no Ryan household listed in Griffiths for Rossgeir which is in the Parish of Clonleigh but there is one Ryan household, head of household called Patrick, in Birdstown next door, also in Clonleigh. So why would they say Rossgeir? Maybe their house was tumbled but I would say it is the same lot of folks and Patrick was left behind.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 28, 2012 at 2:13 pm

        Maybe Rossgier is the next largest townland. maybe if they said a smaller townland the person taking the names down wouldn’t know where it was. When we tell someone what city I’m from they may not know it but if I say the largest city near me then they may know about where it is! We can keep checking the hints on the trees maybe something else will pop up.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 28, 2012 at 3:35 pm

        FFT: From 50 When states received their statehood

        1787-1796: 16 states: DE, *PA, NJ, GA, CT, MA, MD, SC, NH, VA, *NY (1 record), NC, RI, VT, KY, TN

        1803-1896: *OH, LA, IN, MI, *IL, AL, ME, AK, MI, FL, TX, Iowa, WV, CA, MN, *Missouri, OR, KN, NV, NE, CO, ND, SD, MT, WA, WY, UT

        1907-1959: OK, NM, AZ, AL, Hawaii

        * states are were we have records for our families on the manifests.

        I read the rail roads by 1840’s were in 11 states. The story for the Pennsylvania Port may be that people moved at least twice by covered wagon. and by 1880’s by immigrant train or rail car. Also the choice seems to be a personal one- economics: (jobs, land) and maybe to stay w/ their church. Prior to 1780’s the emigration seems to be for religious reasons: (5 waves of emigration and the Presbyterian church that also expanded west.)

        In PA our people seem to spread west for the land for farming. Cheaper land and land grants were made land available in western states in 1800’s. Maybe our story could group together some of our farmers, their move from PA to OH, Illinois, Missouri (temporarily during Civil War) and Wisconsin. Later generations moved to: Texas, Colorado and Wyoming, California and Nevada.

        We have records for Presbyterian, RC faiths in 18th and 19th centuries.

        The records for the laborers seem to have too many variables. Single names still seem to be more difficult to find. Family groups seem to be easier to find. The farmers appear in census records seem to be easier to find. The weavers also have been difficult to find ( I don’t think we found any weavers or laborers). Perhaps weavers and laborers rented instead of owned. They should have been in census records. It would be interesting to see if laborers and weavers were more likely to be single or married and if they owned or rented property.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 28, 2012 at 10:02 pm

        From the lists of names per parish for Tyrone and Donegal, the names that appear infrequently or not at all are: Brisland (Donegal – Innishkeel, Clonmany or Killybegs), Dermott (Donegal), Diver (Donegal), Doak (Donegal – Clondavaddog, Taughboyne or Raphoe), Fergie (Belfast), Carland (Donegal – Clonleigh), Gilfillan (Derry – Clondermot or Faughanvale), Harold (Donegal – Conwal or Raphoe), Hastings (Donegal), Hay (Tyrone – Urney or Bodoney Upper), McAnaney (Tyrone – Ardstraw, Bodoney Upper or Capagh), McDonagh (Donegal), McHenry (Antrim), McMichael (Tyrone – Aghaloo or Bodoney), Menagh (Down or Derry), Nee (Donegal – Leck), Potter (Tyrone), Risk (Derry – Clondermot), Ruddy (Donegal), Scallan (Tyrone – Donacavey, Termonmaguirk or Drumragh), Sherwood (Derry – Templemore), Sterling (Antrim).

        That adds up to just 22 names or about 15% of the total and these are super-waxwings. These names if spotted are much more likely to be the real deal and not cases of mistaken identity. The downside is that because they are rarer they are less likely to be spotted. Where only county is mentioned that means that nonetheless the name is sufficiently rare for that to be enough. I mean to concentrate my efforts on these two dozen names only for the time being.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 28, 2012 at 11:42 pm

        Dermott Genealogy Forum

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 28, 2012 at 11:45 pm

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 28, 2012 at 11:57 pm

      • londonderry

        December 29, 2012 at 3:41 pm

        Dermott—-this is especially interesting to me. My grandfather and his family lived in Dermott Arkansas in Chicot County. The county furthest South East next to the Mississippi River, and on a railline. When I researched the name Dermott, I found that the town was named for a farmer named McDermott who bought a plantation in the rich river bottom. This brought me to a site to research how Scottish names were generated and I found that a Gaelic tradition ofth used was to add a Mc in front to indicate, “son of”. So McDonald indicates the son of Donald. There are many other protocols on this site but I have this question. Was there a norm when the Mc was dropped or not. Was it in America, Ulster, when leaving Scotland or random? Pardon the rulebased preciseness and neatness that us engineers always look for in the world. But it does raise the question, could any of the waxwings have similar name changes?
        The very interesting site is:
        I am learning a lot from this voyage that you guys are taking!!!!!

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 29, 2012 at 12:21 am

        What It’s All About

        A lovely couple from Oklahoma City seeking their Ulster-Scots Ancestors

      • Mary Cornell

        December 29, 2012 at 8:17 am

        Response to your super waxwings-

        Super Super Waxwings in the US Census 1860-1920
        Male or female from Ireland w/following names-

        Fergie (1)
        Brisland (24)
        McAnaney (37)
        Menagh (40)
        Risk (67)

        The name McMichael is listed 252 times, but 50% are in Philadelphia.
        Doak is listed 208 times.
        Most numerous is Hastings (1245)

    • Mary Cornell

      December 29, 2012 at 6:18 am

      Have my computer working well enough to use. Finally able to post a comment on the Thompsons. I found another Isabella Thompson along with her husband, Bery(?) and children who came to Philadelphia in 1830 on the Margaret Miller. She also had children named John and Alexander. Could these be the ones that you were finding? I found it odd that there were two Isabella Thompsons. The ages are completely different so they appear to be two different women.

      I will make a couple more passes on the Ontario to see if anything else shows up.

      I found several very interesting works by Dennis Clark who spent 30+ years writing on the Irish in Philadelphia and is considered a foremost expert on the subject. Much like Don, he was also an expert in social and urban dynamics and how they are affected by a culture. He spent many years in urban development in Philadelphia and he was a strong believer in knowledge and understanding of one’s culture and how it plays out in the urban sphere.

      None of his writings are available online, but you can read several excerpts through Google/Amazon books. I was a little disappointed in his earlier writings as I was expecting much more researched and detailed writings, but the later works seem to make up for that. Sadly, he died several years ago. He would have been an excellent source for some of our unanswered questions.

  84. maccarleo

    December 26, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Computor is down. Don’s computor is a bad influence. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas.

  85. maccarleo

    December 26, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    Computer is down. Don’s computer is a bad influence. Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas.

  86. Don MacFarlane

    December 26, 2012 at 10:06 am

    Hi Vic. If you mean what photo was that on the Header, I haven’t a clue. It was just chosen at random from the WordPress gallery of themes. Sorry to disappoint. I thought it was time to give a fresh look to the site and I coldn’t access my own Ulster photo gallery as my computer is broken. However, I have reverted to an earlier frontispiece for the site as it has restored certain functionalities that the more experimental themes could not deliver.

    A review of the activity for 2012 on the site shows:

    Over 26,000 ‘hits’, which is double that of last year and four times as much as when the site was set up five years ago. That translates to roughly nine thousand visitors.
    The site still retains its name for now of Genweb but in fact more than 90 per cent of the activity comes from Google searches.

    A pie chart per country would show – 50% of visitors are from the US; 20% are from the UK; 10% are from British Commonwealth countries; 3% are from Ireland; and the rest are random.

    Favourite clicks are for:;; and This suggests that the majority of visitors are armchair genealogists and that they have much less interest in the social commentary and social history themes that have been picked up by FTT this year. Either that or they are satisfied with the pages which have enough meat in them, without any need to explore further. This is somewhat at odds with the poll results that show that over 56% of visitors to the site claim to be interested in history as well as ancestry.

    Irrespective of all of the above, I am really pleased that our small team have formed and that they have begun to drill down into the social issues of the period which impacted upon ancestors in Ireland around the times of the Famines. Living in the place, it has opened my eyes and I look around me with a fresh pair of eyes at places that I barely noticed before.

  87. Eileen Breen

    December 24, 2012 at 1:09 am

    I’m looking at the Prudence. So far nothings coming up for names A-L. The Leitch family has a tree I saw but I can’t access it. When I googled Leitch family, Tyrone: there was a tree from Ardstraw, Tyrone. I was wondering if this is the one you found?

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 24, 2012 at 4:38 am

      Unless I am mistaken, the only Tyrone waxwings that could have travelled on the Prudence were Barr (NOT Clogher or Aghaloo), Birney (NOT Clogher), Crawford (Donacavey), Deery, Hay (Urney or Bodoney), Keys (Donaghedy or Donacavey), Leitch (NOT Ardstraw) or Patrick (Ardstraw). The parishes they are most likely not from are in the brackets if it says NOT, otherwise the parish is correct. I say this because the website AskaboutIreland lists these surnames from those parishes as landlords if I have put NOT, so unlikely to be travelling as labourers or farmhands. I have used the Failtromhat website most for Griffiths but I have recently discovered this other website which has the advantage of listing sitting tenants as well as heads of household. Failteromhat has the advantage of listing ‘all’ names within a parish but is not exhaustive as it does not include non-householders as far as I know. Hence Askabout more closely resembles a census.

      Tenants listed for these landlords were:

      Barr – various, including McCann, McNally etc.

      Birney – over 20 in number at various addresses, including Wilsons, Cosgrave, Stewart etc.

      Leitch – 15 in number in Carncorran Glebe (Castlederg), perhaps all farmhands and servants, including Gallon, McSorley, Corcoran etc.

      This Askabout site puts a rather different perspective on things. Clearly, there are tiers of prosperity at work here with some folks able to employ significant numbers of others as helps and farmhands. It may be on closer scrutiny that my suspicions will prove correct, that our ‘farmer’ waxwings were really farmhands and will be listed on this site as such. In any event, I feel I am closing in on these waxwings bit by bit, at least as far as their parishes of origin in Ireland. I have a bit to go yet with the ‘triangulation’ method but I am getting there.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 24, 2012 at 9:18 pm

      I think I found the Thompson family from the Prudence. Two brothers lived in Wisconsin and there are several trees on Ancestry, including:jamiemorrison 1974. The two brothers in Wisconsin, William Henry and John, were farmers and owned land in Wrightstown, Brown, Wisconsin. another brother, Alexander, lived in Ontario, Canada.

      I am still working out the details. They were RC. Brother John died in Morristown, Brown, WI, and there is a tombstone photo with documents (some are upside down – just as they were on Ancestry)

      • Eileen Breen

        December 25, 2012 at 4:30 am

        Some things seem ok with this family [some not]. The Philadelphia part on the ship matches with the Wisconsin census but there are two questions so far. Several family members have Isabella as having a husband, Edward, but there is no Edward Thompson on the Prudence. Maybe he came over earlier. Also, two sons lived in WI but Isabella is listed as a spinster on the ship with several children. I can’t find a death date for Isabella. Isabella had a son or nephew called Alexander and several people have him living in Canada. Edward Thompson lived in Canada but the kids’ names don’t match the ship manifest or the Wisconsin census. On his death certificate Edward is Presbyterian but his brother William H. Thompson is RC. Also on the ship William is a laborer but on the Wisconsin census he is a farmer. If this turns out to be correct we will need to cross-check all our laborers as farmers. I think this suggestion was proposed by Mary and Don.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 25, 2012 at 8:15 am

        This case throws up several issues, quite apart from the two raised so far which are a) how to link up spouses that may have travelled separately b) how to square different religions within the same family. Normally those two things alone, if not satisfactorily accounted for, would disqualify the family under scrutiny from further consideration. However, if other things add up (whatever these ‘other things’ might be) then the family might not be so easy to dismiss. But there would be a need to specify what these ‘other things’ could be that can compensate for what seems to be an obvious mismatch (duly weighted as well probably, as well as specified).

        Bigger issues, in the sense that they are about the groups as a whole rather than individual cases, have to do with the method of sampling. Quota sampling is problematic and if it is to be done it would have to be done without bias. If a name is to be discarded in favour of a name for which information has come to light, the discarded name would have to be recorded to ensure ‘like for like’. Secondly, if we are keeping to the waxwing method then the Thompsons do not qualify as the name is very common, as well as very dispersed throughout Tyrone where this family came from, and the potential for misidentification is correspondingly greater. Otherwise, there is no way of ‘disproving’ the Watson theory about Duffys Cut?

        In a nutshell, if we have on the one hand sixty of the Watson names that are untraceable, and on the other hand our sixty names that are traceable but are substituted for sixty of ours that were untraceable, then that proves nothing and it bolsters the Watson case rather than weakens it. Ideally, if we had a position of trust with the Watsons, we would be keeping in mind the search protocol that they used. Then, using it as well as our own methods, for us to be drawing blanks (in whatever number of cases) would be perfectly OK. That is called replication and it is a cornerstone of research.

        As far as the first issues that have been raised, and if this family is correctly identified as coming off the Prudence, I would assume that the matriarch of the family is RC. Otherwise why would the patriarch change religion from Presbyterian to RC? The travelling ahead assumption, which does make sense, is reasonable as the patriarch would probably wish to check out the lie of the land before sending for his family. The hope for us would then be that the patriarch would have appeared in an earlier shipping list on Ancestry?

        I’m away now to baste that turkey!

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 25, 2012 at 9:37 am

        ‘Elusive Dreams’, Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood.

        Thinking of the Thompsons who travelled a thousand miles from Philadelphia to Wisconsin:

        I followed you to Texas
        I followed you to Utah
        We didn’t find it there
        So we moved on

        To a small farm in Nebraska
        To a gold mine in Alaska
        We didn’t find it there
        So we moved on

        And now we’ve left Alaska
        Because there was no goldmine
        But this time only two of us move on

        And now we just have each other
        And a little memory to cling to
        And still you won’t let me go on alone

        I know you’re tired of following
        My elusive dreams and schemes
        For they’re only fleeting things
        My elusive dreams

      • Eileen Breen

        December 26, 2012 at 1:05 pm

        From the Prudence on the Thompson family:

        Isabella Thompson is the matriarch even though the ship manifest says she is a spinster. Perhaps her husband died or her husband came before her as you suggested and Iam Still looking for death records for her. I’m not sure who the father is of James (1814), John (1820), Rebecca (1818), Alexander (1822) and William (1816). There is a Matilda (1815) listed on the family tree but not on the manifest.

        The eldest son William Henry Thompson (1813) d 22 Feb 1890 and is buried in St Paul’s RC Cemetery. His wife Frances was from France and is buried in St Mary’s RC Cemetery. Their children, Mary and Samuel, are buried in St Paul’s and I am still working on finding records for their other children.

        William Henry and John were living next to each other and had farms in Morrison, Brown, WI. William farm was worth $800.00 and John’s farm was worth $1000.00. There are a few pictures and records. Isabella’s family matches several family trees on Ancestry and the ship manifest from the Prudence. The only records that I’m not sure are correct are the Canadian records.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 27, 2012 at 2:11 am

        The Thompson tree is growing. I don’t see a story here except one part of the family traveled from Wisconsin to Wyoming in a covered wagon for 1 month. Then another part of the family took an immigrant train to Wyoming and then the rest of the family came on a passenger train. William Thompson was a traveling salesman who had a cart pulled by donkeys. He sold Ward products, spices, and household products door to door. I think the family is catholic. I think there’s a few errors in other people’s trees. They have 2 sons (Alexander and John) emigrating to Canada but I found records for John in Wisconsin (if this is the correct family). All the trees seem to have the same names. I think it’s time to move on…

      • Eileen Breen

        December 27, 2012 at 10:20 pm

        “The opposite of history is not myth. The opposite of history is forgetfulness”

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 28, 2012 at 9:40 am

        Yes, and I had a complete blind spot with regards to history when I was at school. I couldn’t see the point of it and I wanted to do Geography instead! I ended up doing neither and when my Mum would not allow me to do technical subjects I did scientific subjects instead. There must be a moral in there somewhere?

        BTW I have been missing this last few days as I have been helping a lady from Mississippi to find her Scottish Highland ancestors. We are still following that trail but I have found out something she did not know in the meanwhile. Three men on the other side of her family tree were colonels in Oliver Cromwell’s army in Ireland. Not does she not have the Irish blood in her family that she took some pride in, her ancestral family were colonists and land-robbers. Be careful what you look for, you may find it?

        I will get back on track with the Waxwings project but I feel a bit hamstrung by my computer having broken down. I can do Google and other searches but that is the height of it. I would like to enter what we have on the spreadsheet and start analysing but that has to be on hold. I have almost finished with listing per parish the names of the waxwings in each. That should mean for one thing not continuously having to visit Griffiths and should make any triangulation easier.

      • maccarleo

        December 27, 2012 at 4:48 am

        I have been wondering about the word spinster. Could it simply mean woman or female? Could some of these women been with their husbands, not their brothers as we have assumed?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 27, 2012 at 8:37 am

        I wondered the same thing, only I thought it might just mean the female equivalent of weaver. The woman of the house spun the flax on her spinning wheel (hence spinster) and the man as weaver wove it on his loom if he had one, otherwise the product of the woman’s labours got sent off to the bleach green. That was my theory.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 27, 2012 at 2:03 pm

        Spinster usually means an unmarried woman or maybe unchaparoned. I once saw it in a medical record and was appalled! I thought no one better call me that! In the case of the Thompson’s: Isabelle was older than this group of children. I thought she may be an aunt who was unmarried or the mother who was widowed or who was meeting her husband. I never found the husband in Philadelphia or Wisconsin. Several trees had an Edward Thompson and two sons living in Canada but this didn’t make sense. I found records for one son they said lived in Canada but records said he was in Wisconsin. Also the records had the wrong place of birth for the son. I’m still trying to figure out the sons in the family.

  88. Eileen Breen

    December 23, 2012 at 1:53 am

    The Irish Times site has a great interactive program on emigration, ‘Irish Emigration: Welcome Emigration Isle. 200 Years Of Irish Emigrants Through The Lives Of Real Emigrants’. It covers the Who, What, When, Where and Why of emigration and the sights and sounds of emigration from the 1800s to the present day.

    From the site: In 1841-51, 34% were literate but the Registrar General who recorded literacy rates during the census years in Ireland recorded a higher rate for males in 1841 at 67.7%.

    87% of emigrants had families of more than eight children. The average age of emigration was 17-29. Emigrants were mostly farmers. in Munster, 290,970 people emigrated; in Leinster, 332,936; in Ulster, 171,287; and in Connaught, 245,624.

    In 1788, transportation to Australia was for mostly minor crimes. A boy aged 12 was sent there for stealing a silver spoon. Woman were transported for stealing petty items. The average stay in Australia was 62 years. Over 60,000 emigrated to North America to participate in the American Revolution.

    Famine in 1841 killed 400,000 in Ireland. Gold was found in Australia and the Irish in Australia encouraged relatives in Ireland to emigrate. As a result of over-population in western rural Ireland, the Poor Irish Law Boards funded 100,000 people to go to Australia as long as they were good workers. Prior to this the 10-15 pound ticket to Australia was cost-prohibitive.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 23, 2012 at 6:02 am

      One wonders about the accuracy of these statistics. If you add them together, they claim that almost ninety percent of the emigrants had eight children before they were thirty years old? If these figures are correct you begin to understand why the likes of the infamous Trevelyan blamed the Irish for their own troubles by bringing such large families into the world when life was so precarious. Angus MacMillan, who contributed to ‘The Sea is Wide’, put it quite neatly about the Scottish Highlands) where circumstances were similar but on a lesser scale):

      ” As for the emigrants, even now and knowing the hardships and tragedies to which they were exposed, it is not possible to judge where advantage may have lain between an island where one family could lose ten of eleven children in childhood, or in risking all and paying the price”.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 23, 2012 at 9:19 pm

        I’m not sure I understand the large family concept except that I think that when they lost a child they felt a strong need to replace that loss with another child. Also to carry on the family name. It could have also been the custom in which clans had large families and shared their children with other members of the clan. That way the work on the farms could be done more easily. My own G-G grandmother had 10 children in 10 years. 6 died before adulthood. The RC Church played a major role in encouraging large families to continue spreading Catholicism all over the globe. I don’t think they thought about the implications of having a family they couldn’t provide for.

  89. Eileen Breen

    December 22, 2012 at 10:37 am

    The question put forth by the Watson’s that the laborers were not educated bothered me.

    The English Government in the early 1800s became concerned over the rise in Catholicism in Ireland. During the 1800s, education was seen as social emancipation for the Irish people during a time of political and social unrest in Ireland. Irish Catholics were subjected to Penal Laws which made education for the Irish Catholics illegal. Education was seen by the English Government as an agent for social control. The Establishment used censorship, taxation and had complete control over the printing and approval of which subjects were taught in the schools.

    Education was seen as “raising expectations” and made one “receptive to radical subversive literature.” The Government felt that providing simple education would allow the English Government to have control over Ireland socially. Further it was seen as a cost-control measure to reduce crime and the cost of rehabilitation of adults and children in workhouses. The Church Of England used education to win over the Irish working class by limiting the use of the Irish language, taking away its customs and by controlling the subjects that were taught. This did not settle well with the majority of the Irish people. Hedge schools were opened.

    Prior to hedge schools being established, the Government provided money for educational materials and school buildings. Private education during the Penal Law period was supported by the Irish chiefs until they were driven out of Ireland in the 17th century. Education for Catholics were illegal. School masters could be transported to Barbados if caught teaching Catholic children. Schools flourished during periods when the laws against Catholics were relaxed and closed during the height of the restrictions against Catholics. In 1812, the “Irish wanted an education for their children and were prepared to pay, even more than they could afford. The desire for education was a constant factor and universally held.” Further, Wakefield states “the people of Ireland are universally educated. I do not know of any part of Ireland so wild that its inhabitants are not anxious for the education for their children.”

    In 1810 William Reed on his tour of Ireland speaks about Hedge Schools and the desire of Irish parents to educate their children, “A desire for education manifests itself, and very generally, among the lower orders of the people. I found several very humble seminaries called hedge schools. There are teachers, who become inmates of a cabin for several weeks, receive temporary lodging and a few potatoes to instruct juvenile inhabitants.” Teachers who were male received about 9 pounds per year and female teachers were paid 4 pounds per year. There were several accounts of people with little or no means who had an extra building on their property who would loan the instructor use of a building for the hedge school. The Government also tried to keep control of the educational system and would provide grants for education and provide school buildings.

    In 1805, males received an average of 2.3 years of education. From 1846-51 males earned an average of 5 years of education and by 1867 the average education for males rose to 6.6 years. By 1830 there was a drive towards mass literacy. Private education brought education outside of the state and church run schools. About a quarter of the children of the working class were educated in this way. Over 6,000 teachers sought to become certified by 1849 as the Government sought to standardize the educational system. Churches continued to influence the subjects to be taught and the control over texts and reading materials for the masses.

    The Registrar General who recorded literacy rates during census years concluded that in 1841 males were 67.3% literate and females were 51.1%. In 1851 the literacy rate increased to 69% for males and 54.8% for females. In 1861 males obtained a rating of 75.4% and for woman was 73.2%. Some factors that affected literacy rates were living in the rural areas in Northern Ireland where schools were not available. Often students were living more than ten miles from a school. The major factor was that Irish parents wanted their children not to learn just from books as the English did but to learn about all aspects of every day living. When subjects in daily living were introduced, the popularity of education flourished. By 1870 education was seen as a means to create an industrialized society. Laborers saw for the first time possibilities opened to them and new products and information were made available. In 1900, Ireland’s literacy rate reached 100%.

    The drive towards literacy and the importance of education for Ireland’s children was influenced by the English Government’s greed for imperialism and social control over Ireland that attempted to devoid the Irish people of its history, customs and ability to govern its people. For Irish parents living in poverty in rural Northern Ireland in the early 1800s education was perceived as a means to social emancipation. Private citizens, teachers and parents risked their lives to raise expectations and opportunities for their “children”, ensuring that education would be provided to all children despite religious or financial background.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 22, 2012 at 11:21 am

      The Catholic Church were not entirely blameless in perpetuating ignorance amongst the masses either. Witness Archbishop Troy, primate of Ireland, who condemned his flock and the many rebel priests for free-thinking at the time of the Act of Union. I would give a quote but my computer has crashed and I can’t access.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 22, 2012 at 4:11 pm

        The articles I read hinted that the churches had their hand in swaying opinions without actually pinpointing what the Catholic and Church of England said about education. I’ll have to check it out. It must have been difficult to stand up for what you believed in back then especially if you were a free thinking rebel clergy member. They felt for the common man but at the same time got heat from their churches and the Government.

        BTW: I found several articles quickly on education in Northern Ireland and statistics proving the Irish Catholics had a high literacy rate despite all their hardships and they didn’t come to the US as illiterate men and woman. The Watson’s never researched this before putting their biases in their book. The book might have been more interesting and accurate if they had.

  90. Londonderry

    December 21, 2012 at 10:40 am

    Don, I think the Watson interface might be interesting and educational. It might be that we learn from any pushback in particular areas……e.g. “the “professor” protesteth too much me thinks” from Lady Gertrude in Hamlet. I applaud your approach to gently engage and suggest you continue, if he responds.

  91. Eileen Breen

    December 18, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    I found an interesting book on Ancestry. If you go to search bar and type in Pennsylvania; “Personal Reminiscences Of The Old Main Line”. It’s the original line of the Pennsylvania RR. It discusses all the social history of Philadelphia and PRR. It doesn’t mention Philip Duffy or the Cut as it takes place 1860-1879 but it was interesting to read the history.

    From the book on the subject of ancestry: p 96-99: “We are indeed a melting pot’s product like a thick vegetable soup, in which the stock is Anglo-Saxon- the strength of the soup; but the rest of it is in the mixture that we see, taste and chew on.” From the Columbus dispatch: 33 million immigrants came to America. 1/4 (24.7%) of the immigrants came from the United Kingdom.

    I put up a profile on Philip Duffy ( info from the book) and only 1 record I could find on Ancestry for the 1830 census in which the Duffy’s Philip, his wife, son Francis Xavier and daughter lived w/ 24 men and a child age 10-14 yr. Listed on the census: 1 male: age 5-9 (Duffy’s son), 1 male: age 10-14. Of the 24 men: 3 males in household age: 30-39. 1 female under age 5 (Duffy’s Dtr), 1 female age 20-29 ( Duffy’s wife) and 3 children under age of 20 ( Duffy’s 2 children and 1 other child), 24 free white men in total (10 of these are aliens, foreigner’s not naturalized).

    • Eileen Breen

      December 20, 2012 at 2:03 pm

      FFT: OnTwitter they have a set up where if a person is missing they can use Twitter and their social network to find missing people For ex they have siver alert for and elderly person and amber alert for children. I think there are different degrees of severity. I was thinking why couldn’t genealogy research clubs all over the world find the missing. Obviously we are looking for people that have died so it’s like a cold case. Maybe genealogical groups would be willing to help us do research for these folks. Who better that people who are interested in genealogy and would like to help others figure out theit questions. The difference between just writing on one site at a time like starting a thread on Ancestry or Roots is time consuming. I don’t think people look at these threads often. Also you have to go through a lot of threads and as Don said the quality of the information wasn’t there. We could put out invitations to genealogy groups asking for their assistance about who we are looking for and asking them to respond to us on Twitter. It may be faster and more wide spread and more instant gratification.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm

        Sounds good to me. I suppose Facebook is similar but allows more space, has a photo gallery etc? The wordpress that services this website can connect up to Facebook but I suspect it can’t differentiate between one page on the website and another. The idea of the waxwings page was for it to be tighter and less random, specialising in DuffysCut etc issues. My brother links up his wordpress site to Facebook and Twitter and gets several thousand hits per day compared to my several hundred at best. They rarely talk to him however so I’m not sure how worthwhile that is.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 21, 2012 at 1:50 am

        I suppose it doesn’t do any good if they won’t talk to us. Frncis Davis. Only a few choices for this name but I’m not sure if I have the same person. On the UK side later census records have Davis families near Letterkenny and Stranolar. In Philadelphia I found 1 in Philadelphia in 1850 in ward 3, not sure of the profession. He’s a farmer in Ireland so I don’t think he would be living in the city. The neighborhood is near Kensington and N. Liberties. 1880 there’s a Francis Davis in the poor house: Paralysis, in Philadelphia.
        I’m not finding anything definitive for Samuel Adams, Robert Allen, William Balantine, Barr family and Brisland family. I’m trying to go through the family groups on the Prudence.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 21, 2012 at 8:45 am

        I have been through the PA and OH censuses and have come up with these surnames (all with correct first names) and these surnames alone from our waxwings. These lists comprise therefore roughly half of our names which means the other names are not in the PA or OH censuses and may be further afield.

        Mostly, there have been single results, several means two and where I have said ‘various’ that refers to no more than four possibles. There are no multiples of more than four viz ‘too many choices’. I have not studied this list yet but my immediate impression is that few if any of these townships are in Philadelphia. That would mean the City Directories would be of limited use, except that I have not tracked the census results.

        The male names from the John Stamp are asterisked and if even one of these names is correct the Watson story, which depends on no survivors, falls apart. The names in asterisks belong to females who may well have changed names if they married. The logical next step for me is to bombard Google with these combos and see what comes up.

        Pennsylvania Censuses

        Aikin – East Whiteland
        Balentine* – Brandywine
        Barber* – Tredyffrin
        Barr – Willistown or West Fallowfield
        Bryan – Sadsbury
        Buchanan – Honeybrook
        Caldwell – East Bradford
        Childs – Maria, N. Coventry
        Cochrane – Highland
        Cook – E Bradford or New Garden
        Cowan – E Nottingham or Sadsbury
        Craig – Kennett
        Elliott* – Newlin
        Ewing* – Warwick or East Nantmeal
        Fleming – Lower Oxford or West Fallowfield
        Forbes* – West Brandywine
        Gilfillan – West Fallowfield
        Greer – Highland or West Pikeland
        Griffin – Phoenixville
        Hastings – West Bradford
        Henderson – West Chester
        Higgins – Phoenixville
        Hunter* – several
        McConnell – West Nottingham
        McCormick*- West Chester or West Whiteland
        McGlone* – Phoenixville
        McMichael – Schuylkill and Honeybrook
        Patchell* – London Grove and Penn
        Potter*- Easttown
        Shields – West Chester and Westtown
        Snodgrass – West Fallowfield
        Woods – Penn

        Ohio Censuses

        Arthur – Greenfield
        Barton – various
        Bryan – various
        Burns – W Cincinnati
        Childs – Bayview, Jefferson or W Dayton
        Creighton*- Pleasant, Hale or Portage
        Culbertson – W Cincinnati, Madison or Troy
        Cully* – W Cincinnati
        Diven* – Cincinnati
        Ellis – various
        Fowler – Harrison

        Gregory – Madison
        Hastings* – various
        Keys – Waynesville
        Kyle – Sugarcreek or Henia
        McGuire – various
        Mahon* – Wyandot
        Montgomery – W Cincinnati and Fremont
        McBride – Crosby
        McClay – Piqua
        McConnell – various
        McCormick* – various
        McHenry – Xenia or Cincinnati
        McMichael – Pleasant
        McQuigg – Claridon
        Neely – Hillsborough and Springfield
        Nelson – Oxford and Cincinnati
        Noble – various
        Owens – various
        Patchell*- Onelick
        Peoples – various
        Potter*- Trumbull
        Riddle – Clermont
        Ritchie – Cincinnati
        Russell – various

        Shaw – various
        Sherwood – Oxford
        Snodgrass – several
        Southwell – Millcreek
        Wilkinson – Madison
        Woods – various

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 21, 2012 at 11:27 am

        Higgins of Phoenixville PA

        Here is an early capture from Google. I have no idea if it is the right Higgins family tree till I study it but it is not the original John Higgins. I only post it to illustrate the good work that is being done ‘out there’ in the ether.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 21, 2012 at 2:17 pm

        Do you want to run these names w/ just Ohio residences and skip Philadelphia? I agree I wasn’t getting much for Philadelphia.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 21, 2012 at 5:13 pm

        I think they just passed through Philly for other parts of PA, OH and beyond. ‘Farmers’ I can understand heading for where land coud be got, weavers I think would be more inclined to hang around PA?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 21, 2012 at 9:20 am

        I said in my mail to Frank Watson that I was merely keeping him posted – I ostensibly did not expect a reply as it was merely an update rather than anything else. This disclaimer was merely a camouflage on my part to cover any embarassment or defensiveness he might feel at being confronted. I specifically challenged him on two points only and I said there were no other points of divergence (not quite true). These points were about their suppositions that the workers were native Irish and poor at English speaking. Given that Lancaster County and its surrounds were largely founded by Ulster- Scots I stated that I doubted there was the degree of racism implied by them that would require such a hush-hush coverup. I also asked why there were only two Ulster-Scots names on the memorial.

        My mailtracker records that the mail has not been opened yet, only that it has been delivered. I presume Frank has not read it yet or has binned it unopened. If he has opened it, he will know now that we may have in mind to publish our efforts at some point and that may put the cat amongst the pigeons in relation to their own book coming out next year I think.

  92. Eileen Breen

    December 17, 2012 at 2:05 am

    I put in place names for Woods, Lecky, W. Doherty and Wilkinson

    James Lecky: 1828: Tithe: 1828 Gortnamuck, Donegal, Donaghmore

    Woods: Farmer, in Mt Washington, Virginia. Also in Pittsburg, PA in the 32nd Ward in 1872.
    *I didn’t find James Lecky or William Doherty in Pittsburg but the last names were present in Pittsburg, PA.
    1831: Donegal, Townland: Ballymacarry, Parish: Fahan Lower

    Elizabeth Wilkinson: Associated W/ Henry McCauley. There’s a Mary and a Hannah McCauley also on the J.S. I wasn’t able to find the family yet. Wilkinson found 3 death dates in PA in West Philadelphia, age 79, age 28 in Philadelphia and married to a John Wilkinson in Petersburg, PA (She was a spinster on J.S.) so this last one seems unlikely.

    Dolly McFadden: Listed as a laborer? I think when they entered Henry McCauley having his 2 boxes he brought his occupation was put on the next line on Dolly McFadden’s name. He could be listed as unmarried but there are 2 other McCauly’s listed. So I think Dolly McFadden is unmarried. Elizabeth Wilkinson is a spinster and Henry McFadden is a laborer w/ 2 children? Mary and Hannah.

    Henry McCauley: City Directories in Philadelphia have a few Henry McCauley’s listed w/ 4 professions.

  93. Eileen Breen

    December 13, 2012 at 7:53 pm

    Name Census BMD Military Immigration Newspapers Stories
    Alexander Barber 2,643 5,000 3,062 321 5,000+ 2,438
    John Burns 2,781 5,000 5,000 1,666 5,000 5,000
    John Craig 5,000 5,000 5,000 1,898 5,000 5,000
    John Creighton 172 1,854 1,139 122 5,000 1,533
    James Crilly 11 95 58 15 5,000 76
    James Deviney 75 318 197 67 5,000 169

    These numbers are using filters: Name, Year Of Birth, Place Of Birth, Death 1832 Malvern, PA, USA and Placed Lived: Philadelphia, PA, USA (All Search).

    • Eileen Breen

      December 13, 2012 at 10:59 pm

      I forgot to say: each page has 10 items per page for each category. The searches give alternate spellings. I think you can place an * on the first or last name or use a ( ) on a name for more specific searches if you have a Mac. I haven’t tried it yet. I read it in an Ancestry book. Just can’t use numbers near a name the filters don’t work. I’ll try to do more searches in the AM.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 14, 2012 at 9:06 am

        In the course of completing the biogs for the ‘Country Folks’ page, I came across a number of forums for a number of the names. I am not impressed with these forums, either because of the sparsity of responses in some instances or because they are too dispersed to be of much use. Hence, I remain a very committed non-fan of Ancestry for that and other reasons we have talked about.

        I will not be directing any of my efforts towards Ancestry as I think they have made a bollocks of the whole thing (sorry, an Irish expression). I know you have come up with really good material already from that source but I think that particular well is dry now. I also commend your efforts which have been really original and imaginative in trying to force Ancestry to work. However, I think our small tight group can do much better through our individual efforts and I have some plans up my sleeve which I will pass on soon once they are more definite and crystallised.

        In the meantime, continue with Ancestry if you please but count me out. I will not be renewing my subscription and I think their whole set-up is a sham and a shambles. I would not give them the light of day if they came to me for business – in a previous existence I commissioned client information systems so I know what to expect. I can tell you a story about two set-ups, who do remind me of Ancestry actually, who did come touting for business but got short shrift from me in particular!

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 20, 2012 at 6:57 am

        I had the map in mind to do of where waxwings came from by townland and county and I was in the process of doing so when my computer crashed. It is still crashed and I will have to decide what to do about that as it is unlikely to be fixed (too old) or replaced, if at all, till after Christmas. I continue to post onto FTT with my ipad which is mostly what I have been doing up till now but it has its limitations. It doesn’t have Word or Excel as it is an Apple product.

        When I get up and running again I will tackle a spreadsheet, not the existing DuffyTemp one but an existing one which I have had in storage for a long while based on Griffiths. I will add to it new material from the ship lists to PA from Derry for the period 1830-1834. From that I will analyse the patterns of evacuation from Townlands. My impression so far is that there is no pattern of evacuation from the townlands in general, it is all very patchy and sporadic, apart from these – Derry (Maghera, Faughanvale and Macosquin), with very little from East or South Derry; Tyrone (Castlederg and Strabane), with very little from East or South Tyrone; Donegal (Letterkenny, Muff and Lifford), with very little from West or South Donegal. In other words, the further you get away from the port of Derry, the less immigration there has been, it seems to be a local phenomenon. If I take a wider sample of ships the picture could build up more but I don’t intend to trouble the team with that search as that is something I will do on the side.

        BTW Sorry if I have caused confusion but could we continue to use FTT for normal posting and reserve the Waxwings page for reference purposes only as that was what that page was set up to do.

        I posted the Ferguson link as an example of a very systematic piece of research and to show the range of sources that was used but it has limited value for what we are doing. It is a tour-de-force of all the Fergusons in Ireland but that was the precise reason I left Ferguson off the list of waxwings – the name is all too common to be of use for our purposes. I had spotted Hunter Ferguson and I had contemplated using him, but mainly because of his first name which was very unusual. He might still be a good candidate for that reason.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 20, 2012 at 7:24 am

        Other Trends

        American Civil War

        Most of the Irish soldiers who fought in the war came from Gaelic-speaking counties. So much for the prejudice that Americans supposedly had against Gaelic-speaking Irishmen. They didn’t mind fighting alongside them?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 20, 2012 at 7:41 am

        Plantation of Ireland

        It is clear from this map, as if we didn’t know that already, that the majority of our waxwings were of Ulster-Scots (Scotch-Irish) descent.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 20, 2012 at 1:23 pm

        Could Hunter be a family name? Maybe his mother’s maiden name? In the Civil War there were over 38 regiments on both sides that had the word Irish in it. It may be interesting If we looked up some of the regiments to see where they came from? The 69th NY was one of the most noted. The work your doing on the trends for migration is very interesting. I think it adds another dimension to the story as well as everyone’s research contributions. Good luck w/ the computer. I had one crashed last year. I’m going to try to work at adding the information from the waxwing page to their profiles on Ancestry. If there is anything you need to add to your spreadsheets and can’t because your using the ipod let me know.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 16, 2012 at 12:31 am

      Check out on ancestry: Irish History Timeline Family Tree. I made you all contributors. We can add pictures, stories etc on the timeline. Feel free to add anything.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 16, 2012 at 1:09 pm

        I saw the names of the towns you added to the DuffyTemp page. I can add these to their profiles, maybe we’ll get a hit off these. I was thinking we should expand our search from Philadelphia outward. If many of those who were on the ships were Presbyterian perhaps they followed the church. I read they wanted small farms so the Pittsburg, PA area and Ohio countryside may be be places to look. Pittsburg is the second place the church expanded to after Philadelphia. I’ll try to look up the churches and maybe there are records to be found.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 16, 2012 at 1:35 pm

        I am going to have a look at what ships left with Irish passengers from the North West of England, Scotland and Southern Ireland for the period 1830-1834 to see if I can pick up on more possible chains of emigration.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 19, 2012 at 9:37 am

        Derry Census 1831

        The following names have direct hits on the census
        Gregory – Meeting House Lane in Coleraine or Gills in Macosquin
        McGlone – Lissan
        Sherwood – East Wall in Derry City

        The following are mainly from Faughanvale and Cumber – Cowan, Davis, Gilfillan, Owens

        The following are mainly from Loughinsholin – Diamond, McQuillan, Hemphill

        The following are not on the census – Brisland, Brigham

        The following are not on but have names that are similar
        Carrigan (Carrican from Muff Village, otherwise known as Eglinton) but the name is common in other counties including Donegal.
        Childs (Chilles)
        McClannon (McClainan from Ballyleagry in Balteagh)

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 21, 2012 at 1:29 pm

        I think I have a different angle to test which Parishes lost the most emigrants during tnat summer of 1832. So starting with Tyrone, waxwing names prevalent (50% of total names) there were:

        Ardstraw – Aiken, Arthur, Baird, Barber, Barton, Bredin, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochran, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Devany, Doak, Donaghy, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Gregory, Grier, Hemphill, Henderson, Hunter, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leitch, Lemon, Levingston, Long, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McConamy, McCormick, McFadden, McHugh, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McKenny, McKnight, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhillimy, McQuade, McRory, McSwine, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Patrick, Polock, Porter, Quigley, Read, Russell, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Sproule, Woods.

        I will check the rest of the parishes but I kind of know already none will come anywhere close.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 21, 2012 at 1:44 pm

        Conwal Parish in Donegal

        Waxwing Surnames (40% of Total)

        Aikin, Baird, Barr, Boal, Buchanan, Byrnes, Craig, Davis, Deery, Dermod, Devanney, Diven, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Herold, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, Long, Magee, McClay, McConnell, McCormack, McElhiney, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHenry, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McRory, McSwine, McIlwaine, Neally, Nee, Nelson, Owen, Peoples, Porter, Read, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheil, Speer, Sproule, Teas, Wilkinson, Wood.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 21, 2012 at 11:17 pm

        Clonleigh (Donegal) Waxwing Surnames (20%)

        Allison, Bryan, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Henderson, Hood, Keys, Lecky, Leech, McAleer, McBride, McBrierty, McClay, McFadden, McGettigan, McGourley, McHugh, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Shiels, Slevin, Weir, Wilkie.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 22, 2012 at 10:22 am

        Remaining Donegal Parishes

        The percentages after the parishes refer to the percentage of the waxwing names which were to be found in that parish. Conwal with 40% has the biggest percentage of waxwing names, followed by Aughnish with 25%.

        Names which have spilt over to Donegal from Tyrone or Derry and which from the ship manifests are not Donegal but Tyrone or Derry waxwings are: Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barr, Birney, Brisland, Brigham, Burns, Byrnes, Carrigan, Cowan, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Deanny, Diamond, Donaghy, Ellis, Forbes, Gilfillan, Gregory, Griffin, Hay, Hemphill, Keys, Livingstone, Leitch, Long, Maguire, McConnell, McGonigle, McKenny, McRory, Owens, Patrick, Shaw, Speer.

        From that, the percentages of waxwing names indigenous in Donegal should be adjusted upwards by a third. In the case of Aughnish for example the percentage of possible waxwing names in that parish will be closer to 35%, not 25%, and a similar adjustment can be made for the rest of the parishes. This inclusion of non-Donegal names might seem to be causing unnecessary confusion but it is presented this way to give some feel for the internal migration that took place in Ulster which was quite apart from the emigration to places abroad.

        Donegal names off the John Stamp were – Allison, Craig, Creighton, Diver, Doak, Elliott, Fullerton, Hastings, Hunter, Montgomery, McCahill, McGettigan, McGhee, McGourley, McIlhenny, McKinney, Patchill, Quigley, Rush, Ruddy, Shannon.

        1. Aghanunshin (10%) – Baird, Berny, Buchanan, Davis, Elliott, Greer, Hood, McGettigan, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Noble, Reid, Russell, Speer, Wood, Wylie.

        2. All Saints (20%) – Allison, Arthur (A), Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell (A), Cochrane (A), Cooke (A), Craig, Darmond, Deary, Divanny, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Griffin, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Kerrigan, Long, Magee, Maguire, McBride, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McNaught, McQuaid, McCormack, Noble, Peoples, Shannon, Sheil, Woods

        3. Aughnish (25%) – Aiken, Allison, Birney, Brien (A), Buchanan, Caldwell, Cooke, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Fleming, Fullerton, Gibbons, Griffin, Hay, Henderson, Hunter, Kyle, Lackie, McBride, McConnell, McCormick, McFadden, McFate, McGettigan, McGhee, McIlwaine, McKenny, McMenamin, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheils, Sproule, Tays, Wood

        4. Burt (15%) – Bredin, Byrne, Cochran, Dermott, Elder, Fleming, Hay, Hunter, Long, Magee, McBride, McConnell, McConomy, McCormick, McGonigle, McKenny, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McNutt, McSwine, Nealy, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Shiel, Wilkinson, Wyley.

        5. Clonca (10%) – Baird, Davis, Dearmod (A), Deery, Devanny, Diver, Elder, Elliott, Fleming, McGonigle, McGuire, McIlhenny, McRory, Nelson, Quigley, Ruddy, Shiels.

        6. Clondahorky (15%) – Baird, Barr, Grier, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Hunter, Mahon, McBride, McFadden, McGee, McIlhenny, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Shiels, Weir, Wilkinson, Woods.

        7. Clondavaddog (10%) – Brien, Buchanan, Culbertson (A), Dermod, Gibbons, Griffin, Hay, Magee, McBride, McElhinny, McGettigan, McIlwaine, McSwine, Peoples, Reid, Sheil.

        8. Clonleigh (20%) – Allison, Bryan, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carland, Carrigan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Henderson, Hood, Keys, Lecky, Leech, McAleer, McBride, McBrierty, McClay, McFadden, McGettigan, McGourley, McHugh, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Shiels, Slevin, Weir, Wilkie.

        9.Clonmany (7%) – Brisland, Diver, Herald, Hood, Magrory, McGonigle, McIlhenny, McKenny, Montgomery, Nelso, Quigley, Sheil.

        10. Convoy (20%) – Byrne, Caldwell, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Devany, Ellison, Ewing, Grier, Henderson, Kerrigan, Knee, Leckey, Levingston, McBride, McCormack, McFadden, McGee, McGuire, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, Montgomery, Neely, Reid, Russell, Shiels, Slevin, Snodgrass, Spear, Sproule, Woods.

        11. Conwal (40%) – Aikin, Baird, Barr, Boal, Buchanan, Byrnes, Craig, Davis, Deery, Dermod, Devanney, Diven, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hastings, Hay, Henderson, Herold, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, Long, Magee, McClay, McConnell, McCormack, McElhiney, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHenry, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McRory, McSwine, McIlwaine, Neally, Nee, Nelson, Owen, Peoples, Porter, Read, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Sheil, Speer, Sproule, Teas, Wilkinson, Wood.

        12. Culdaff (10%) – Barr, Caldwell, Craig, Crawford, Diarmod, Fleming, Henderson, Long, Mahon, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, McKenny, McQuade, Nelson, Quigley, Sheils, Woods.

        13. Desertegney (2%) – Barr, Fullerton, Magrory, McKenny.

        14. Donagh (7%) – Barr, Bresland, Elder, Ferguson, Gibbins, Herald, McDonagh, McGonigle, McIlhenny, McKenny, McRory, Nelson, Shiels.

        15. Donaghmore (30%) – Barr, Buchanan, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlin, Cochran, Crawford, Davis, Deveny, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Gibbons, Gregory, Grier, Griffith, Henderson, Hunter, Leckey, Maguire, McBride, McCormack, McFadden, McGee, McHugh, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McNaught, McSwine, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Russell, Shiels, Slevin, Snodgrass, Sproule, Woods.

        16. Donegal (20%) – Brigham, Buchanan, Byrne, Cowen, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Elliott, Greer, Gregory, Griffith, Henderson, Higgins, Mahon, McCormack, McFadden, McGettigan, McHugh, McIlhenny, McNamee, McQuaid, McSwine, Montgomery, Quigley, Richie, Shiels, Slevin, Weir (JS 6).

        17. Drumhome (20%) – Barber, Bredin, Buchanan, Byrne, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Devany, Diver, Edgar, Elliott, Ellis, Gibbons, Gregory, Griffith, Henderson, Kerrigan, Magee, Maguire, McBride, McClay, McCormack, McFadden, McIlhenny, McQuaid, McRory, Montgomery, Nelson, Reid.

        18. Fahan Lower (10%) – Barr, Breesland, Cochrane, Cooke, Donaghy, Elliott, Fullerton, Hunter, Keays, Levingston, McFadden, McGonigle, McGrory, McKenny, Nelson, Quigley

        19. Fahan Upper (10%) – Barr, Cochran, Davis, Devanny, Elder, Ferguson, Henderson, McClea, McCormack, McIlhenny, McNutt, McSwine, Montgomery, Nicholl, Quigley, Ruddy, Shaw, Sheil, Wyley.

        20. Gartan (5%) – Fleming, McCormack, McIlhenny, Nee, Neely, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Skipton.

        21. Glencolumbkille (7%) – Buchanan, Byrne, Craig, Crawford, Diver, Griffith, Higgins, McBrierty, McGonagle, McGuire, McHugh, McNelis

        22. Inch (5%)- Craig, Dermott, Ewing, Fleming, Griffin, McCormack, McGrory, McSwyne

        23. Innishkeel (15%) – Aril, Byrne, Brisland, Carlon, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Devany, Devir, Elliott, Griffin, Long, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McGee, McGuire, McHugh, McIlhenny, McManamin, McNalis, McSwine, Quigley, Richey, Sproule.

        24. Innishmacsaint (15%) – Brien, Brislane, Byrne, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyles, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCormack, McGonigle, McGuire, McKenny, Montgomery, Noble, Reid, Ruddy, Shaw, Shiel, Slevin.

        25. Inver (20%) – Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Cowan, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Elliott, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Kerrigan, Kyle, Long, Maguire, McBrierty, McCahill, McCormick, McDonagh, McFadden, McGettigan, McGrory, McHugh, McMonigle, Montgomery, Reid, Richey, Russell, Shannon, Slevin (JS 6)

        26. Kilbarron (20%) – Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Culbertson, Davis, Deery, Devanny, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Gibbons, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Kerrigan, Keys, Maguire, McBrerety, McBride, McCormack, McGettigan, McGhee, McGonigle, McMenamin, McNelis, Montgomery, Nelson, Patchell, Quigley, Shiels, Slevin.

        27. Kilcar (5%) – Byrne, Mahon, McBrearty, McBride, McFadden, McGonigle, McBride, McHugh, Ryan.

        28. Killaghtee (15%) – Barr, Buchanan, Byrne, Cooke, Crawford, Deery, Ellison, Ewing, Gibbons, Griffin, Hastings, Henderson, Higgins, Long, Maglone, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCahill, McFadden, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHugh, Richey, Shannon, Shaw.

        29. Killea (12%) – Arthur, Baird, Buchanan, Byrne, Craig, Elliott, Ferguson, Gilfellan, Hunter, Kernahan, Lecky, McBrearty, McDonagh, McIlwaine, McNutt, Montgomery, Rankin, Woods.

        30. Killybegs Lower (8%) – Bresland, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Elliott, Griffin, Hunter, Long, McBride, McConnell, McGuire, McHugh, Quigley, Richey.

        31. Killybegs Upper (10%) – Bresland, Byrne, Crawford, Davis, Devanny, Long, McBrearty, McCahill, McCormack, McFadden, McGonigle, McGuire, McHugh, McIlwaine, McRory, Shannon.

        32. Killygarvan (10%) – Bryan, Cochran, Gibbons, Grier, Griffin, Henderson, Kyle, McBride, McGhee, McGonigle, McKenny, McMenamin, McNaught, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nelson, Quigley.

        33. Killymard (10%) – Brigham, Byrne, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Dermott, Ellis, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Long, McGee, McGettigan, McGrory, McHugh, Montgomery, Richey, Slevin.

        34. Kilmacrenan (20%) – Bresland, Brien, Buchanan, Crawford, Devany, Elder, Elliott, Gibbons, Hastings, Hay, Higgins, Hood, Kyle, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McDonagh, McElhinny, McElwain, McFadden, McFate, McGhee, McGettigan, McHugh, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nelson, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Sheil.

        35. Kilteevogue (10%) – Byrne, Devany, Ferguson, Henderson, McBrerety, McBride, McCahill, McCormack, McHugh, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McSwyne, Slevin.

        36. Leck (20%) – Allison, Baird, Boale, Davis, Devany, Elliott, Ewing, Gregg, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Leitch, McConnell, McCormack, McFadden, McGuire, McIlhenny, McKenny, McMenamin, McSwyne, Montgomery, Nee, Peoples, Reid, Russell, Wilkinson, Wyley.

        37. Lettermacaward (8%) – Brislan, Byrne, Dermott, Devanny, Elliott, McBride, McGee, McGettigan, McGuire, McHugh, McIlhenny, Russell.

        38. Mevagh (15%) – Barr, Barton (A), Brislane, Crawford, Devanny, Devir, Greer, Hay, Hunter, McBride, McConnell, McFadden, McGettigan, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNutt, McFadden, McBride, Peoples, Sheil, Speer, Wilkinson.

        39. Mintiaghs of Inch – Barr, Bresland

        40. Moville Lower (15%) – Baird, Barr, Carlan, Cooke, Crawford, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Ellis, Hastings, Hemphill, Henderson, Herold, Kerrigan, McConnell, McCormack, McDonagh, McGee, McGonigle, McHenry, McKenny, McSwine, Montgomery, Peebles, Sproule.

        41. Moville Upper (15%) – Alleson, Baird, Barr, Bredin, Brislan, Burns, Carlin, Cochran, Cooke, Crawford, Dermott, Ewin, Ferguson, Hay, Hemphill, Henderson, Kerrigan, McDonagh, McGee, McGonigle, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Peebles, Quigley, Shiels, woods.

        42. Muff (15%) – Allison, Barber, Barr, Bresland, Cochrane, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Elder, Ewing, Ferguson, Gibbons, Gilfillan, Greer, Long, McIlhenny, Montgomery, Quigley, Sheils, Wylie.

        43. Raphoe (8%) – Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Henderson, McBride, McCormack, McMenamin, McNaught, Nelis, Noble, Russell.

        44. Raymoghy (18%) – Allison, Arthur, Barr, Bresland, Crawford, Davis, Dermott, Devanny, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Gilfillan, Henderson, Hood, Hunter, Lecky, Mahon, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McFadden, McHugh, McIlwaine, Montgomery, Peoples, Quigley, Shannon, Shiels.

        45. Raymunterdoney – Ferguson, Greer, Mahon, McBride, McFadden, McGee.

        46. Taughboyne (10%) – Arthur, Cochrane, Cowan, Craig, Devanny, Donaghy, Elliott, Greer, McNaught, Neilly, Nicholl, Porter, Rusk, Speer, Woods.

        47. Templecarn (15%) – Aikens, Caldwell, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Elliott, Ellis, Henderson, Kyle, Magrory, Maguire, McIlwaine, McHugh, McMenamin, McRory, Nelson, Noble,
        Owens, Peebles, Reid, Woods.

        48. Templecrone (8%) – Crawford, Devanny, Ellis, McBride, McCormick, McFadden, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, McMenamin, McNelis, Quigley, Slevin, Sproule.

        49. Tullaghobegley – Davis, Devir

        50. Tullyfern (25%) – Aikin, Birney, Buchanan, Crawford, Davis, Diver, Elliott, Ellis, Ewing, Ferguson, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Hay, Hunter, Kerrigan, Kyle, McBride, McClay, McConnell, McElhinny, McFadden, McGettigan, McGrory, McIlwain, McNutt, McSwyne, Montgomery, Peoples, Quigley, Reid, Richey, Russell, Reid, Shannon, Snodgrass, Sproule.

        51. Tullyfern (12%) – Barr, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Grier, Griffin, Henderson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leech, McCormack, McHugh, McNaught, Nelson, Sproule, Rush.

        52. Urney – Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Kerrigan, Keys, Kyle, Lecky, Leech, McCormack, McHugh, McNaught, Nelson, Rush, Russell, Sproule.


        A definite picture may emerge which, coupled with triangulation and mapping, might provide evidence of local recruiting activity prior to the sailing. An initial eyeball test, however, and subject to later statistical analysis, does not suggest any prior recruiting in Ireland of the John Stamp crew.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 23, 2012 at 11:11 am

        Donegal Recruitment for Ship Prudence?

        Names – Buchanan, Greer, Kernahan, Davis, Kyle, Lecky, McDonagh, Peoples, Weir, Woods, Barr, Kernaghan

        Barr – very spread out.
        Buchanan – 1 2 3 7 8 11 15 16 17 25 26 28 30 34 43 50 51 52
        Greer – 1 6 8 10 11 15 16 32 38 42 46 50 51 52
        Kernahan – 29
        Lecky – 15 36 43 44 52
        Peoples – 2 6 11 20 34 36 38 44 49 50
        Davis – very spread out
        Kyle – 3 25 47
        Weir – 16 24 33
        Woods – 2 6 10 12 15 41 43 46 47
        McDonagh – 14 25 34 40 41 43

        Numbers are codes for ‘Remaining Donegal Parishes’, (see post on 22nd Dec 2012). The clusters do not on the surface indicate wholesale recruitment by the Prudence for these names. Reference to ship’s manifest indicates that the Greers and Barrs travelled as a family or couple and the Buchanans and Kernahans came as siblings so they can all be removed from the list. Woods and Lecky travelled together and both may have come from Donaghmore (15) or Raphoe (43). Or they may have come from Killea along with McDonagh. All of these places are in East Raphoe barony and a short distance from each other adjoining Tyrone.

        More work needs to be done yet to explore these origins and this is ongoing. These details would ordinarily be on the DuffyTemp Excel spreadsheet but my computer has broken down and forbearance is required.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 23, 2012 at 2:43 pm

        Tyrone Parishes of Waxwings

        Tyrone Waxwings: Baird (S), Ballantine (S), Barber (S), Barr (P), Birney (P), Burns (S), Byrnes (S), Crawford (P), Cully (S), Deery (P), Devanny (S), Donaghy (S), Forbes (S), Foster (S), Hay (P), Keys (P), Livingstone (S), Leitch (P), Lemon (S), Long (S), Maguire (S), McAdam (S), McAnaney (S), McCanny (S), McConnell (S), McRory (S), McGlashan (S), McGonigle (S), McKinney (S), McMichael (S), Patrick (P), Potter (S), Rice (S), Scallin (S), Shaw (S), Speer (S), McAnamy.

        John Stamp (S); Prudence (P); Asia (A); Ontario (O)

        1. Aghaloo (20%) – Barber, Barr, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Donaghey, Ellis, Ferguson, Fleming, Foster, Henderson, Higgins, Keys, Kyle, Levingston, McAdam, McConnell, McGee, McGlone, McHugh, McKenny, McMichael, McQuade, Montgomery, Nelis, Nelson, Potter, Reid, Shannon, Sheils, Slevin, Stringer, Woods, Wyley. Possible waxwings = 11.

        2. Aghalurcher – Birney, Caldwell, Cowan, McGuire, McRory, Montgomery, Noble, Woods.

        3. Arboe (15%)- Ballantine, Burns, Cowan, Creighton, Donaghy, Eldher, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Lemmon, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, Meenagh, Reid, Rice, Ryan, Shaw, Sheals, Taylor, Wyley. Possible waxwings – 10.

        4. Ardstraw (50%) – Aiken, Arthur, Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barton, Bredin, Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlan, Carrigan, Cochran, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Deery, Devany, Doake, Donaghy, Ellison, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Gregory, Grier, Hemphill, Henderson, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Keys, Kyle, Leitch, Lemon, Levingston, Long, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCanny, McConnell, McCormick, McFadden, McHugh, McIlhenny, McIlwaine, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhelimy, McQuaid, McRory, McSwine, McAnaney, Montgomery, Neely, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Patrick, Quigley, Reid, Riddall, Rush, Russell, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Sproule, Stevenson, Taylor, Woods. Possible waxwings = 24

        5. Artrea (6%) – Burns, Caldwell, Cooke, Crawford, Ferguson, Foster, Greer, McDonagh, Spears, Weir.

        6. Ballinderry – Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Greer, Potter, Ryan.

        7. Ballyclog (12%) – Brien, Buchanan, Byrne, Davis, Donaghy, Elder, Ellison, Ferguson, Henderson, Hunter, Levingston, McBride, McConnell, McFadden, McMenamin, McRory, Nelson, Nicholl, Russell, Wyley.

        8. Bodoney Lower (20%) – Ballantine, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Crawford, Culberton, Davis, Deery, Donaghy, Ellis, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Hunter, Leech, Mahon, McAleer, McAneny, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McHugh, McIlwaine, McMenamin, McMichael, McNamee, McPhilimy, McRory, Montgomery, Neally, Nicholl, Spear, Wilkinson.

        9. Bodoney Upper (15%) – Ballantine, Barton, Byrne, Crawford, Ferguson, Fullerton, Griffin, Hay, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McElwain, McEneny, McNamee, McQuade, Nels, Noble, Patrick, Reid, Woods.

        10. Camus (30%) – Aiken, Baird, Barber, Barr, Beirne, Bredin, Buchanan, Burns, Carlin, Cowan, Craig, Culbertson, Davis, Dearmod, Devany, Elliott, Ewing, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Leech, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McConnamee, McCormack, McIlhenny, McGettigan, McGonigle, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McRory, McSwyne, Nelson, Nicholl, Noble, Quigley, Read, Riddall, Shiel, Snodgrass, Sproule.

        11. Cappagh (10%) – Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Donaghy, Edgar, Ellis, Fleming, Greer, Hunter, Livingstone, Mcleer, McBride, McRmack, McKenny, McNamee, McQuade, Reid, Sheils.

        12. Carnteel (20%) – Aiken, Ballantine, Buchanan, Caldwell, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Fleming, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Kernihan, Kyle, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McIlwaine, McNamee, McQuade, Montgomery, Neilly, Nelson, Potter, Reid, Riddall, Russell, Shaw, Sheils, Speer, Taylor.

        13. Clogher (33%) – Aikens, Arthur, Barr, Barton, Birney, Blair, Bredin, Bryan, Buchanan, Caldwell, Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Donaghy, Elliott, Ellison, Ewing, Fleming, Henderson, Hunter, Kernahan, Keys, Kyle, Long, McNamee, McRory, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McConnell, McCormack, McGlone, McKenny, McNelis, McQuade, Montgomery, Neilly, Nelson, Nicholl, Owens, Reid, Rice, Richey, Rush, Russell, Shannon, Shiels, Skelton, Slevin, Taylor, Weir, Woods.

        14. Clogherny (20%) – Ballantine, Barr, Barton, Bredin, Byrne, Cochrane, Cooke, Crawford, Culbertson, Donaghy, Ellison, Forbes, Greer, Kyle, Macrory, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCormack, McHugh, McNamee, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Neally, Nicholl, Noble, Owens, Patrick, Read, Rice, Ritchie, Rush, Shiels, Sproule, Stevenson.

        15. Clonfeacle (25%) – Aiken, Barber, Buchanan, Craig, Crawford, Elliott, Ewing, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Long, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McConnell, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McQuade, Meenagh, Nelson, Patrick, Peebles, Reid, Ryan, Shannon, Sheil, Skelton, Sterling, Stevenson, Stringer, Taylor, Weir, Wiley, Wilkinson, Woods.

        16. Clonoe (8%) – Arthur, Burns, Donaghy, Gibbons, Higgins, Hunter, Magrory, Magee, McConomy, McCormack, McQuade, McCrory, Montgomery, Nicholl, Reid, Russell, Ryan, Woods.

        17. Derryloran (25%) – Ballantine, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Fleming, Greer, Griffin, Higgins, Hunter, Kyle, Lecky, Leitch, McRory, McGee, McAleer, McBride, McConamy, McConnell, McCormack, McElwain, McFadden, McGlone, McGourley, McNamee, McQuade, Nelson, Owens, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Ridell, Russell, Shaw, Stirling, Taylor, Weir.

        18. Desertcreat – Baird, Ballantine, Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Burns, Craig, Devanney, Donaghy, Ferguson, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Magee, Maguire, McAdam, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McConomy, McCormack, McGlone, McQuaid, McRory, McShane, Reid, Russell, Woods.

        19. Donacavey – Arthur, Baird, Barr, Bredin, Brien, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Cooke, Crawford, Culbertson, Donaghy, Elliott, Ewing, Fleming, Griffin, Henderson, Maguire, McAleer, McCormack, McCrory, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhilemy, Nelis, Noble, Owens, Potter, Reid, Sheils, Skelton, Slavin, Sproule, Taylor, Weir.

        20. Donaghedy – Aiken, Baird, Barr, Bresland, Buchanan, Cochrane, Cooke, Craig, Crawford, Davis, Deery, Devanny, Diarmod, Donaghy, Edgar, Elliott, Ellis, Ferguson, Forbes, Griffin, Hennderson, Hunter, Kerrigan, Leech, Levingston, Long, Magee, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McConamy, McConnell, McGettigan, McGonigle, McKenny, McMenamin, McPhelimy, McRory, McShane, Neely, Nelson, Patrick, Quigley, Rice, Richey, Shaw, Shiels, Slevin.

        21. Donaghenry – Birney, Byrne, Caldwell, Crawford, Davis, Donaghy, Elder, Elliott, Ellison, Ferguson, Greer, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Keys, Lemon, Maguire, McAdam, McBride, McConammee, McConnell, McElwaine, McGee, McQuade, McRory, McGlone, McShane, Nicholl, Noble, Reed, Riddle, Rush, Riddle, Shields, Speer, Weir.

        22. Donaghmore – Arthur, Barton, Birney, Byrne, Caldwell, Craig, Creighton, Davis, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Fullerton, Higgins, Hood, Macrory, Magee, Maguire, McCormack, McGlone, McHugh, McMamee, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Reid, Richie, Rush, Shaw, Sheil, Taylor, Wylie, Woods.

        23. Dromore – Arthur, Buchanan, Crawford, Edgar, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Fleming, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McCanny, McConnell, McCormick, McDonagh, McEnaney, McFadden, McGee, McHugh, McKenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McQuade, Noble, Owens, Reed, Russell, Shannon, Slevin, Sproule, Wiley, Woods.

        24. Drumglass – Arthur, Barton, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Davis, Divenny, Donaghy, Ellis, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Henderson, Hood, Leckey, McQuade, MacRory, McShane, Magee, Mahon, McBride, McConnell, McGlone, Maguire, McHugh, Montgomery, Nelis, Nelaon, Noble, Peebles, Slevin, Speer, Taylor, Wyley.

        25. Drumragh – Aiken, Allison, Arthur, Baird, Ballantine, Barber, Barton, Buchanan, Burns, Byrne, Caldwell, Carlan, Cochran, Cooke, Crawford, Creighton, Davis, Delany, Doak, Donaghy, Elliott, Ellis, Fergey, Ferguson, Fleming, Forbes, Fullerton, Gibbons, Greer, Henderson, Higgins, Hood, Hunter, Kyle, Lemmon, McRory, McGee, Mahon, McAdam, McAleer, McAnally, McAnaney, McBride, McClay, McConnell, McCormick, McDonagh, McFadden, McRory, McHugh, McKenny, McNaught, McPhilemy, McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Nelson, Nicholl, Patrick, Rice, Shannon, Shaw, Sheils,
        Slevin, Sproule, Taylor.

        26. Errigal Keerogue – Buchanan, Burns, Cochrane, Crawford, Deery, Donaghy, Ewing, Ferguson, Greer, Gregory, Henderson, Higgins, Kyle, Macrory, McNelis, McAleer, McBride, McConnell, McIlhenny, McGlone, McNamee, McQuaid, Montgomery, Neally, Reade, Rice, Riddall, Rice, Ryan, Sheil, Slevin, Spear, Stringer, Woods.

        27. Errigal Trough – Fleming, Kyles, McQuade.

        28. Kildress – Arthur, Burns, Craig, Crawford, Creighton, Donaghy, Elliott, Fullerton, Greer, McAleer, McBride, McCormack, McNamee, Montgomery, Potter, Reid, Taylor.

        29. Killeeshill – Caldwell, Culbert, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Griffin, Henderson, McBride, McConnell, McElhinney, McGee, Macrory, MacNamee, McQuaid, Montgomery, Potter, Reid, Ryan, Shannon, Shiells, Woods.

        30. Killyman – Cochran, Cowan, Creighton, Donaghy, Fleming, Fullerton, Greer, Henderson, McBride, McConnell, McCormack, McGlone, McNamee, McQuade, McShane, Montgpmery, Nelson, Noble, Quigley, Reid, Rice, Russell, Ryan, Shaw, Skelton, Wiley, Woods.

        31. Kilskeery – Cowan, Hunter, Maguire, Magee, McCormick, McQuaid, Montgomery, Reed.

        32. Learmount – Donaghy

        33. Leckpatrick – Arthur, Barr, Breslan, Buchanan, Burns, Caldwell, Carlin, Cochrane, Davis, Devenny, Elliott, Ells, Ewing, Forbes, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Magee, Maguire, McBrearty, McBride, McCormick, McGee, McGettigan, McGonigle, Mcguire, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McShane, Nicholl, Slevin, Weir, Woods.

        34. Lissan – Ballantine, Brien, Donaghy, Fleming, Henderson, McAleer, McBride, McCrory, McGlone, McKenny, McNamee, Patrick, Reid, Weir, Wiley, Wilkinson.

        35. Longfield East – Allison, Barr, Barton, Buchanan, Caldwell, Crawford, Donaghy, Davis, Livingston, Magee, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McConnell, McGuire, McHugh, McPhelimy, McQuade, McRory, quigley, Reid, Russell, Sproule, Woods.

        36. Longfield West – Barr, Barton, Breslan, Buchana, Caldwell, Cook, Crawford, Creighton, Devanny, Hemphill, Higgins, Hunter, Keys, Maguire, McAleer, McAnenny, McBride, McCormack, McMenamin, McPhelimy, McQuaid, Montgomery, Nelson, Quigley, Reid, Rush, Russell, Scallin, Shannon, Speers, Sproule, Woods.

        37. Pomeroy – Aikin, Arthur, Barber, Buchanan, Ellis, Fleming, Foster, Magee, McAleer, McRory, McMenamin,McQuaid, McShane, Montgomery, Noble, Potter, Reid, Ruddy, Sheils, Wiley, Wilkinson, Woods.

        38. Tamlaght – Cooke, Cowan, Craig, Ferguson, Griffin, Henderson, Hunter, Lamon, Leech, Long, Magee, McShane, Montgomer, Owens, Reid, Shaw, Spears, Weir, Wilkinson.

        39. Termanomongan – Breslan, Byrne, caldwell, Carlin, Craig, Crawford, Donaghy, Elliott, Ferguson, Forbes, Foster, Gibbons, Hemphill, Zhenderson, Hunter, Kyle, Lecky, Levingston, Magee, McCormack, McHugh, McIlhenny, McRory, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhilimy,
        Rush, Heils, Snodgrass, Spears, Dproule.

        40. Termonmaguirk – Buchanan, Cochran, Crawford, Avis, Elliott, Ewing, Forbes, Higgins, Kle, Levingston, Maguire, McAleer, McBride, McDonagh, McGlone, McGuire, McNamee, McQuillan,McRory, Minagh, Nelson, Owens, Patrick, Ryan, Shiels, Taylor, Woods.

        41. Tullyniskan – Bryan, Burns, Cochrane, Cooke, Elliott, Greer, Henderson, McConomy, McGlone, McGuire, McMenamin, McRory, Montgomery, Reid, Ruddy, Sheil, Skelton, Taylor, Weir, Woods.

        42. Urney – Arthur, Baird, Barr, Beirne, Buchanan, Burns, Caldwell, Carland, Cowan, Craig, Deery, Donaghy, Elder, Elliott, Ewing, Ferguson, Forbes, Gibbin, Hay, Hemphill, Henderson, Higgins, Hunter, Long, Magee, McAdam, McAleer, McBrearty, McBride, McCormack, McGonigle, McHugh, McIlhenny, McMenamin, McNamee, McPhelimy, McRory, McShane, McSwine, Nelson, Nickle, Noble, Owens, Quigley, Reid, Rush, Russell, Shaonnon, Speer, Sproule, Taylor, Woods.

        Commentary So Far

        Almost all of the Ardstraw emigrants that Summer, whatever number that there were, left on the John Stamp. The few that did not may have left on the Prudence. From these lists, the names that appear infrequently or not at all are: Barber, Birney, Blackwell, Boal, Brisland, Brigham, Childs, Culbertson, Cully, Diermott, Diven, Doak, Fergie, Foster, Fowler, Carland, Gilfillan, Gregory, Harold, Hastings, Hay, McAnaney, McDonagh, McFeat, McHenry, McMichael, McQuigg, Menagh, Nee, Potter, Risk, Ruddy, Scallin, Sherwood, Skelton, Sterling. That adds up to just over 20% of the total and these are super-waxwings. These names if spotted are much more likely to be the real deal and not cases of mistaken identity. The downside is that because they are rarer they are less likely to be spotted.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 23, 2012 at 7:24 pm

        Donegal Waxwings by Ship

        Allison (S), Buchanan (P), Carlin (O), Craig (S), Creighton (S), Diven (S), Doak (S), Elliott (S), Ewing (S), Ferguson (O), Fullerton (S), Gibbons (O), Greer (P), Harrold (O), Hastings (O), Hunter (S), Kernahan (P), Kyle (P), Lecky (P), Montgomery (S), McBrearty (O), McBride (O), McCahill (S), McClay (O), McDonagh (P), McGettigan (S), McGhee (S), McGourley (S), McIlhenny (S), McIlwaine (S), McMenamin (O), McPhelimy (P), McShane (O), Nee (O), Nelson (O), Patchell (S), Peoples (P), Quigley (S), Rush (S), Ruddy (S), Ryan (O), Shannon (S), Skilton (S), Slavin (O), Sproule (O), Taylor (S), Weir (P), Wilkinson (S), Woods (P).


        Tyrone waxwings invariably travelled on the John Stamp and never on the other ships, Prudence or Ontario, that travelled to PA in the Summer of 1832. Donegal waxwings travelled on all three ships. Unfortunately, the parishes or counties of origin were not recorded on the manifest of the Asia so that discovery will require a bit more digging to find out the answer. In other words, recruitment for the John Stamp appears to have happened at county level but not for the other ships.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 24, 2012 at 7:29 am

        Passenger Groupings on Asia 1832

        Barr/Wilson – Clogher, County Tyrone

        Snodgrass/Bryan/Rich/Morrison/Nelson – Rich is probably in error, otherwise Ballymoney, County Antrim.

        Arthur/Hunter/Diermott/Carland/Barton – Diermott is odd man out; otherwise Tyrone.

        Southwell/McFadden/McAleer/McKenny – Southwell is the odd man out; otherwise Tyrone

        McNamee/Conway/Cochrane – Derryloran, County Tyrone.

        Patton/Graham/McCoy – North Antrim Coast viz Ballintoy or Cushendall.

  94. Eileen Breen

    December 13, 2012 at 3:20 pm

    On listing the choices: how many pages may be difficult since they tell you number of choices first and you have to scroll page after page until you hope you find the end. For ex: William Barber has 491,307 choices for all searches and 11,845 choices for US federal census. 1 family tree but it wasn’t matching his profile. Would it be better to say look at 5 pages and put down the number for best possible choices. It seems after the 1st 2 pages the choices on most people gets “unlikely”. In fact ancestry will put up “best choices for your ancestor”, then will list “unlikely choices”.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 13, 2012 at 3:48 pm

      Yes. If it looks like if after the first two pages all you get is ‘unlikely’ then I would just put 2pp+ against the name. I think there might also be an ‘exact name’ option as well, to filter out the ‘and others’ category? Most of our waxwings only have one or two reasonable spellings. Hence, the names (within the confines above) I would give some latitude to would be such as:

      Aiken (Eakin)
      Allison (Alleson)
      Ballantine (Balentine)
      Barber (Barbour)
      Boal (Bole)
      Bryan (Brien)
      Byrnes (Byrne)
      Carlin (Carlan or Carland)
      Carrigan (Kerrigan)
      Cochrane (Cochran)
      Cooke (Cook)
      Davis (Davies)
      Deery (Deary)
      Devaney (Devany)
      Diamond (Dimond or Dymond)
      Diermott (Dermott or Dyermond)
      Doak (Doack or Doach)
      Donaghey (Donaghy)
      Fergie (Fergy)
      Fullerton (Fullarton)
      Gibbons (Gibbens or Gibbon)
      Gilfillan (Gilfillen or Gilfilland)
      Greer (Grier)
      Griffin (Griffen)
      Harrold (Harrol or Arrol)
      Hastings (Hasting)
      Lecky (Leckey)

      I will place a full inventory on the spreadsheet but you get the gist. I will also put a column for ‘Extras’ for the purpose.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 13, 2012 at 6:12 pm

      On Ancestry,if you do an all-search on the left side of the page it breaks down twenty places where this name could be: Such as census and voter lists, BMD index, immigration, etc. For example, for Alexander Barber, there are Census records: 2,643, BMD: 5,000, immigration: 321. If you search census by year: 1840:4 pages, 1850:12 pages, 1860:14 pages, 1870:6 pages. Every time you narrow something down you get better results as long as you put in quality information. We’re going to get similar results for our single men.

      John Burns: 1840:1,752, 1 in Ohio, 18 in NY, all-search 5,949

      John Craig: all a 7,264

      John Creighton: all – 127,737, 1840: 32 choices (10 results per page), 1850: 538, 1 in Philadelphia, 1860: 2 pages 15 results,

      James Crilly all-7,976, 1840:none,1850 1 in NY, 1860 1 in Philadelphia, 1870 none

      Do you want it broken down by census? Way too many possibilities and combinations!

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 13, 2012 at 8:43 pm

        The interesting thing is the Watsons have to account for all of the labourers of the Ontario and John Stamp to make up their quota of fifty seven. They can’t afford to lose any, either that or they have to filch numbers from elsewhere which destroys their argument that the Irish labourers all came off a boat or boats from Derry that Summer. There is no room for error in their numbers if they hold to that position and that does not square with ‘any number of possibilities’ once you start going down the list on Ancestry?

        Another thing, if you put Ireland as place of origin does that still churn out the same number of answers? I don’t believe for example that there were 538 John Creightons from Ireland in the US in 1850 with the same year of birth. We need to figure what is going on with Ancestry before we turn ourselves inside out?

      • Eileen Breen

        December 16, 2012 at 12:13 am

        All that means is that there are 538 versions of the name. Unless you put in US records only you will get choices from other places. The better the information you put in the more accurate the information is. Our issue is that we only have a name, birth year, and a place of origin that may or not be correct. Also the big thing is we know that they went to Philadelphia on the day they landed but what happened after this is unknown, thus many possibilities will also come up.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 16, 2012 at 5:43 am

        Just ignore my blowing off steam about my frustration over Ancestry. I will nonetheless be directing my own efforts and energies in other ways, not to do with Ancestry, but I am glad they have one fan. You have turned up some nuggets of information and I suspect no-one else has ever used Ancestry in the innovative way that you have done so you may have started something.

        I have started pulling together in the new Waxwings page the strands of the work that we have done so far. This page will be a dedicated research page and it holds duplicates of those posts which point towards ideas, lines of enquiry and directions that the research could take. I think we have enough of all of those to be getting on with and you will recognise a good number of these posts as being your own. In the course of cutting and pasting the stuff across, WordPress failed to cut the author’s name as well so I hope the explanatory acknowledgment at the top of the Wacwings page will suffice and meanwhile the original post remains on the FTT page.

        I have attached to each post, wherever appropriate, a comment called a Corollary. A corollary is a proposition that follows on from a point or suggestion that has already been made, usually in the form of a testable or provable hypothesis. Feel free to add replies to the numerous questions that the Corollaries raise or reiterate. I am working my way slowly through and disentangling my thoughts as I go along so this exercise will take some time.

  95. londonderry

    December 11, 2012 at 10:34 am

    I found move patterns in my research. I call them move patterns because they continued after the “emigration” move. They tended to be family, villages and churches on the first order, then trades and work related patterns. You definitely see this from the old country to America where they came in families, often around popular preachers like Craighill and settled in towns that they named after towns in the old country. But in America they moved again in families, not so much churches, because the farms, in my case couldn’t support the big families and they didn’t want to divide up the land. Why should they when there was land and a lot of it, just over the hill or just past the Ohio River. Just a theory and not proved, I think this continued until the communication patterns became active and mature. The people became more independent and self reliant. I am thinking Boone, railroads, rivers, wars and new territory deals. On my wife’s side we found that whole towns moved west to Iowa and Illinois at one time because of the offers of land for settlers/farmers in new state. In my mind this was a major motivator for the land locked and imperial driven family of Europe. I also think the Scotch component of most of these people…..adventuresome, risk taking, challenging, power weary, etc. is apparent. I am still sorting the Ulster component.

  96. londonderry

    December 10, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    Great work Eileen, you are amazing. Do you ever sleep? My research and reading is consistent with yours albeit not as extensive. And it is consistent with my family who, as you may recall, moved from Derry in 1729 landing in Dover/Wilmington and bought a farm in Tinglestown just east of Harrisburg. I would add that Franklins folks, the Quakers, were very anxious to have these folks settle ever westward in Pa to hold off the Indians. Also, Virginia was more populated and than Pa and add in the P churches and “walla” you have settlements and streams of folks coming into the 1800s. These folks settled the mountains and were loyal to no one. The loyalists settled in the tidewaters. Another thing I noted in my research and visiting Donegal was that the famines as most of would cite for the emigration was caused in many cases by the British merchants in London dictating what the Ulsterites could grow and what they couldn’t. With diversity in crops, if one year there was a blight, then probably a different crop would make it. When the crops are limited, there is a reduced chance of this. My research also showed that the documentation of ships (and their passengers) PRIOR to the Revolution is very limited. So if you are finding ships in the early 1700s, I would be very interested. BTW Don, this may be the record for blog space on the internet!!!!!!!!

    • Mary Cornell

      December 11, 2012 at 6:52 am

      Terrific job on the timelines, Eileen. And Vic’s suggestions on how to incorporate them into the spreadsheets was great. My personal preference has always been the linear timeline (left to right read), but I like the color-coding idea for various events in the time line. It makes it easy to see simultaneous or overlapping events that are happening.

      There was a footnote on the Aiken tree about Joseph Aiken.. Apparently, he is the brother who left for the States first in 1829. After he had established himself, he sent for the family who then followed in 1832. I wonder if this is the reason why the family’s place of origin is out of place with the others on the ship. And are there others whose place of origin is also out of place with the other passengers? Would they also have had a ‘scout’ who went ahead of the others to set up camp, so to speak, before the others arrived? I think it would be easier to pick out families than it would be to pick out the lone passenger, then backtrack to see if the name appears in earlier ships.

      Commentary- Don, you have pinpointed the reason why I do not like Ancestry. It is the “locking up’ of records for financial gain. When I began my family research, most of the sites that are now on Ancestry were free to view on their individual sites. The owners of the sites are certainly within their rights to sell their information to Ancestry, but I see it as ‘selling out’ to the highest bidder. Public records, even those, indexed and researched by others, should not be hidden in a private depository, to be accessed only by those who are willing to pay the ransom. Ancestry looks like they are trying to do the same in the UK, but there are still outside sites that you can go to in order to find the information. Maybe this is why you do not have that to- and- fro feeling as much. You may go to a site and at some point reach a destination where you can page through without the constant returning to the search page and plugging in yet another name to search. There is also the difference of what has been placed behind money doors. A good example of this is Ulster Ancestry site which is a $ site, but the readily available information on the freepages is free to all and is information that can be extremely helpful in a search. This information would be behind the $ door at Ancestry. Greed is an ugly truth.

      BTW Yes, Don I am diligently working away on the chapter for the book. The amount of information we have accumulated is monumental. Deciding what to put in and what to leave out is difficult. I have been constantly adding and subtracting, sometimes the same material. I have to keep in mind that the subject of the chapter is Duffy’s Cut and the Watson’s investigation. It is also difficult as we have not yet reached a definitive conclusion on the Watson investigation. Or more aptly put, we have not yet reached proof of a shoddy and reckless investigation put forth by a preening Dr. Watson and his brother. You may have to tone down my conclusion, Don. LOL

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 11, 2012 at 8:14 am

        I have just finished looking at ships from the year before and after 1832 to see if I could detect any chains of migration within families. I have to start taking a closer look at what I have now but some things jump out of the pages at me.

        The quality of transcription of the names beggars disbelief at how shoddy it is. This in turn would become GIGO fodder for Ancestry – Garbage In / Garbage Out.

        Around 40% of the waxwing names reappear in subsequent or previous voyages the year before or after, notably five new Patchells – none of them are picked up by Ancestry as immigrants into the US.

        As a rule, I try to steer clear of politics but it should be noted that the majority of the waxwings forced to emigrate to survive were Protestants. Famine, oppression and persecution was never confined to one religion.
        There is a peculiar pattern of families of five children or so below teenage years accompanied by father and spinster sister – otma mother in site.

        There is a pattern of whole families emigrating in one fell swoopmand across three generations often.

        There is a pattern of villages losing groups of young people in their late teens and early twenties of both sexes in bunches of 6-10 at a time, all different names, therefore presumably unrelated for the most part. One of these was Tory Island, a Gaelic speaking island (still) well off the coast of Donegal. One of the modern-day residents does paintings and I have posted one on the Townland page as a header. This Tory exodus was one of the few departures for PA from the wilder, more remote and truly Celtic parts of Donegal or anywhere else.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 12, 2012 at 12:14 am

        I remember reading that women in Ireland were not as valued as the men. They were a burden on a large family because women didn’t have jobs or professions early on and their families would pay for the passage to America. Maybe this was similar with children. Maybe they sent them to America with an aunt who may have been coming for herself. Children, both boys and girls, as well as woman probably were indentured. They had to stay on the ship until someone agreed to negotiate a contract for their labor. The longer they remained on the ship without a contract the more likely they would be indentured. The Master would pay for their passage and negotiate a contract for their labor. Woman cost $70.00, Children were $60.00 and men were $80.00 depending on skill level. In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the indentured system continued to 1829. In other parts of Pennsylvania it may have lasted much longer. In the mid 1800s a family member who came first assisted their relatives to come over, slowly dissolving the free labor system for immigrants. For the African slaves the free labor system would be a part of the South much longer.

        If you get some townland that you think might fit for some of our single people I can add it to the profile and maybe it will spark something.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 12, 2012 at 9:48 am

        Perhaps we can concentrate for now on the names that offer the best short-term prospects to build up a better picture. I suggest for names A-C:

        William Barber
        The Faughanvale Contingent

        I will go back to your earlier instructions how to add material to trees in Ancestry, which I have not attempted yet, and I will do it in batches starting with the names above. The names that will be left out for now from this exercise will then form a reserve list which will be put to one side. In the case of surnames A-C, the names that will be given no further FFT for the time being are – Arthur, Allison, Barr, Barton, Birney, Blackwell, Boal, Brigham, Buchanan, Burns, Bradley, Caldwell, Carlin, Carrigan, Childs, Cole, Cochrane, Conway, Cowan, Crawford, Cussen.

        If the same sampling quota holds for the rest of the names, this exercise should end up with about 60 names which should be much more manageable. All of the labourers from the John Stamp will be on the main list as of right.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 12, 2012 at 3:42 pm

        I have only just noticed but I think that Mary made some reference to this before, some of these people (on the John Stamp only unfortunately) are bracketed together by their baggage which points to who travelled together. Family units, obviously, but also as follows:

        Hugh Foster/Robert Livingstone
        John McAdam/Barney Rice
        Rosannah McQuillen/Adam Diamond
        Ewings/Robert Skilton
        William McCormick/Richard Kane
        George Quigley/Michael Farren

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 12, 2012 at 11:23 pm

        Google Searches

        I have started doing Google searches to find any people that have been on-line already, even going back a number of years, looking for our waxwings. I have placed weblinks on the Country Folks page and will syatematically work throught the names from the Duffytemp database. I have merely posted what could be promising links but I have no studied them yet. If I find items of interest in any of the links I will also place the links on the Family Trees of Ancestry.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 13, 2012 at 1:21 am

        Livingstone/ Foster: Too many choices for each, not listed together anywhere. Robert M. Livingstone: Joiner, listed as a carpenter in Johnstown, PA. Several Livingstone’s live near him. Several entries for a Robert Livingstone: box maker in Philadelphia. Few other professions that don’t match.
        Hugh Foster: weaver. 1896: upholsterer in Philadelphia but he would be 83 yr. In a ancestry tree living in NY. There’s a death in 1885 in Chicago, Ill., death in Pittsburg, PA in 1890. Hugh Foster death in Ballyshannon, Ireland in 1880. Hugh Foster in army dies in 1835 in Coraopolis, PA.
        i put on their profile that they came together.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 13, 2012 at 2:08 am

        John McAleer (McAdam b 1812) d. 6 Sept 1896 Delaware County, PA- Methodist. Barney Rice 1860 watertown, Jefferson, NY laborer (ours is a weaver). Multiple entries for each in military. Nothing promising.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 13, 2012 at 7:53 am

        In general it would be important to keep a record of the ‘Too Many Choices’, not the details of the choices, just the message. That way, we could compare how often that message occurs for the Duffys Cut folk, or more generally for all males. Then we would have a fair good indication if the Duffys Cut candidates never presented with too many choices and were untraceable therefore possibly murdered as inferred by the Watsons. In other cases, meaning not John Stamp males but non-John Stamp females, we don’t need to expend effort on tracing all of these people, just the ones that we are interested in because they throw light on some aspect of the times they were living in.

        In this recent example, the subjects are of interest and are worth looking into further despite the ‘Too Many Choices’ scenario because Foster, McAleer, Ewings and Creighton were all Duffys Cut fodder. The reason I got prematurely excited over the ‘discovery’ that some of these people shared chests – premature because I then discovered that the John Stamp was the only ship that recorded shared baggage? – was because that discovery would allow me to be even surer how reliable was my triangulation method of locating parishes and townlands of origin. On the limited info I got, my triangulation method would indeed appear to be relatively sound.

        Going back to something Mary said, where did Duffy get all his 57 from, not just from the John Stamp. I should put an extra column into the Excel spreadsheet to signify Too Many Choices and colour code them. From what you have found already, Eileen, could you send me a list of the Too Many Choices you have found already, indicating preferably (not the headcount) just the number of pages that Ancestry threw up. If that is a chore, just the names will do. It occurs to me that if we address the too many choices issue, we could through that method nail the Watsons pretty quickly.

        Just to recap where I am with all of this:

        a) I have just about completed tracing or at least narrowing down probable townlands of origin. I will insert these into the spreadsheet, colour code for degree of certainty and send you a refreshed copy.
        b) I have started putting comments into for all of the people in the trees for whom I have some extra details and that includes townland of origin.
        c) I have started trawling the internet by Google searching with keywords. Computer-literate armchair genealogists may have put stuff on-line already on waxwing names and this is proving to be quite productive already. I have not sifted though the material I have collated (posted on on the Country Folk page) yet as I am still gathering.
        d) Feel free to insert in the spreadsheet any info from the US side as per the column headings, or in any other columns you wish to insert.
        e) I intend to contact when we are ready the Philadelphia Donegal Association at

        I have a hunch that once all that is completed it will be a case of sitting back to see who takes the bait, just like the pond analogy, and the bait will have to be periodically refreshed. Like I said before, this is a formidable task and I have in my head a five-year timeframe. It should have gathered up enough steam by Fall 2014 to be of use to Eileen if at that point she wants to have discussions with BU about research.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 13, 2012 at 12:43 pm

        Only two ships had laborers: John Stamp and Ontario. Only one other ship,the Prudence, had a laborer and the Asia had none. When you add the number of the laborers from the two ships I believe the number was around 56-57. Also all the people on the memorial are from the John Stamp sixteen in totl 16 laborers.

        On page 68-69 from the book there were two pairings: William Devine with a sister Elizabeth and her son John. William Putehill and David Patchill from Donegal (spelling from the book). 11 from Donegal, 3 from Tyrone, 2 Derry. 1 woman and 1 child.

        FFT: Should we do a triangulation method of where people may have settled in Pennsylvania? – People with a similar name settling around Philadelphia. There is an article called: From Rostrevor to Raphoe: An Overview of Ulster Names In Pennsylvania 1700-1820 By Peter Gilmore

        I’ll check out the ‘too many choices list’mand get back. It’s maybe easier to put up who we found because most of the single men had too many choices except one where we found a family tree on Ancestry. It’s been easier to find a grouping of a family.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 13, 2012 at 2:15 pm

        The more I read, the more I get hot under the collar over the stuff that the Watsons have written about the Irish in their book ‘The Ghosts of Duffy’s Cut’. As Mary has said, their work has been lazy, slapdash and sensationalist, not to mention very misrepresentative and disrespectful of the Northern Irish. I do not use the term Scots-Irish (a recent invention anyway) or Ulster-Scots because our waxwings were not all of that ethnic and cultural background.

        It will take me quite a while to plough through all of it but even what I have posted of linked material so far on the ‘Country Folks’ page – and I am not even halfway there – makes it clear that these people were far from being the yokels they were made out to be. Or to paraphrase Ralph Waldo Emerson when he wrote:

        ‘What was behind them and what was in front of them was nowhere near comparable to what was within them’.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 13, 2012 at 4:29 pm

        Medals of Honour to Irishmen
        Indian Campaigns

        Letter B

        Richard Barrett
        James Bell
        Edward Branagan
        James Brogan
        James Brophy
        James Brown
        Patrick Burke
        Richard Burke
        Edmond Butler
        Dennis Byrne

        And the list goes on. For those with surnames with the letter B alone the Irish were awarded a quarter of the medals. I’m not Irish and it makes even me proud! A similar story can be told for the Crimean War where a disproportionate number of Irishmen were awarded the Victoria Cross. Supposedly, according to the Watsons, immigrant Irish were looked down on by US citizens. Excuse me??

        Also note from the surnames that none of these gallant men were Scots-Irish.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 12, 2012 at 12:40 pm

      I will be tidying up the FTT page very soon as it has got a bit top-heavy right enough. There are several thousand posts on that page compared to the other pages that are very much more modest. The FTT page has really also turned into a Duffys Cut page but I have no problems with that as it has got a clear sense of purpose now rather than just being a talkshop. I feel that the chapter that Mary is working on will complete the ‘Sea is Wide’ and you chapter ‘John 1678’ amongst others will see the light of day very soon now. As soon as I get receipt of Mary’s chapter I will contact Liz Rushen for her chapter and to push ahead with publication. I figure the other side of Easter now to wrap it all up. It has been a long time coming but worth the wait as the US side of things will now get a good airing and that was missing. Mary, I forgot to mention that the other chapters are 12,000- 20,000 words long!

  97. londonderry

    December 10, 2012 at 4:29 pm

    Don, when I worked on the timelines before, I tried to put myself in the environment which impacted the people I was researching. I did this because I wanted to “feel” what they were experiencing and why they might have made certain decisions. This has a macro (historical) and a micro (day to day conditions) dimensions. I’m sure from your background will get a sniff here and there of the “Skinnerian” approaches. I say this because the title timeline seems too inanimate. BTW, I am hoping that you guys select the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s. The great migration was in the 1700s but the periods before shaped the migration and the post period continued the movement. I would love to get my hands on the model Mary says her brother uses. I like to use models in my consulting to make sure I think completely through the problems. I would use a Xcel spreadsheet with several pages at this point but there may be a better way to do it digitally.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 10, 2012 at 9:30 pm

      Great timelines Vic! Thanks for this!. I do sleep occasionally. The timeline I got from Roots. I think I Googled: Timelines of immigration from Ireland to PA w/ a few additions to it from an article I found on Ancestry on the five waves of immigration.

  98. Eileen Breen

    December 10, 2012 at 1:32 am

    Timeline: What time period do we want to cover? There is great history for the 1600s, 1700s, 1800s and 1900s, for Ireland, the US and Pennsylvania that could be useful when writing our social timeline.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 10, 2012 at 7:08 am

      Perish the thought but is this where the Watsons as historians have advantage over us? Bill Watson is a History professor who gives nothing away. When asked politely but obliquely, he chooses to shed no light on how he knows that the Duffy’s Cut crew were murdered en-masse or died of cholera. Has he got some historical trick up his sleeve that us amateurs are just starting to tumble to?

      The idea for the book, ‘The Sea is Wide’, was that historians and family historians could come together within the covers of a book and show two sides of a coin. Historians paint with a broad brush. Unless they are biographers, they write about individual people to illustrate the period of history they cover. Family historians rarely but if at all write about history and then only in a very cursory way as a backcloth to the family tree being researched. Even programmess such as ‘Who Do You Think You Are’ give the nod and little else to history. Certainly, the family researcher touches base with historians in these programmes but the key and starting point every single time seems to be the snippets of information held within the family that allows the programme to ‘Pass Go’.

      If I understand you right, you suggest that an in-depth knowledge of the history of the lifetime of the waxwings will find the historical records that could locate them? Or one could become in effect a historian of the period and be no further forward? I guess if you decide to contact BU these are questions that you will have to address head on. If you do a SMARTER exercise right now it might help to answer them. For now, my impressions for what they are worth are that the US BDM records are too dispersed and are too full of holes. The whole caboodle has been taken over lock, stock and barrel for the purposes of financial gain by who have made a complete hotch-potch of them. By comparison, if I decided to locate emigrants to Australia, provided they were not convicts as their records were thrown into Sydney Harbour, I would find it a very simple exercise.

      In short, I will do an analysis or exposure of the inadequacies of the Ancestry system. It claims to be the repository of BDM details of all immigrants to the US. I will carry out that exercise once I have finished dredging what I can out of the Irish sources. This is why I prepared the Excel spreadsheet. Between the spreadsheet and the vignettes there should be no need for the ‘back-and-forwards’ that Mary mentions. It certainly works for me but I have not started on the US sheet so it would not be of benefit to Mary or yourself yet. In the meantime, I believe you can download a template from Ancestry that cuts out the to-ing and fro-ing?

      The concept of using historical insights has merit and it may well prove to be the finish-up to all of this. But it is for later, not for now. I also believe we have enough material, thanks to your own good work in Ancestry, to write a chapter for ‘The Sea is Wide’. I think Mary is tackling that as we speak? BTW I place a greater belief in Google than I do in Ancestry which is why I am drilling down to find as many keywords for Google searches for people ‘out there’. My Derry site has never been successful in getting these people in any numbers to post their queries and that is a nut I have still to crack. Loads of searches, certainly – over 24,000 this year, but hardly anyone leaves a message. If these things could be joined up we might get somewhere.

      In brief, I think we need to keep in mind the size and the difficulty of this project which has almost 200 subjects being traced. I doubt whether any such kind of genealogical exercise has been carried out before. The beauty of it is that the snags and pitfalls that we come across with the large numbers of people can be identified and recorded and be valuable information for any family researcher looking for just a handful of people. I also try to keep in mind that a family researcher typically has been working on their project for at least 25 years. This is why I believe they deserve the admiration of professional historians. Luckily the historians in my book had the good sense to appreciate that the marriage of minds could be worthwhile.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 12:12 pm

        On Ancestry they also have a large catalog of historical information, not just BMD records. I still think it could be interesting to weave different time lines of Ireland and US as well as Pennsylvania.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 1:38 pm

        So do you want us to stop looking at the ship manifests and trying to find people. Are we done w/ it?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 10, 2012 at 1:41 pm

        I will plug away a bit longer with them to triangulate the names.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 10, 2012 at 4:33 pm

        Other Ships to PA from Derry circa 1827-37

        Asia 1828
        Vernon 1832
        Adam Lodge 1834
        Ann 1834
        Dorothy 1834
        Edmond 1834
        Ellergill 1834
        Garland 1834
        Jessie 1834 (Belfast)
        Kinkella 1834
        Macedonia 1834
        Phoenix 1834
        Courage 1836
        Emmanuel 1836

        Derry to Wilmington

        Lady of the Lake 1831
        Leander 1831
        Inez 1831
        Cupid 1833
        Mary Cummings 1833
        Cruikston Castle 1833
        Lady of the Lake 1833

        PA held its own as a port during the early 1830s, peaked in 1834, then it all fizzled out when other destinations replaced it viz NYC and Boston. Prior to 1832 and concurrently, Wilmington NC was very popular (it is 500 miles from PA) but it fizzled out as well. What was that all about? NYC was worse hit with cholera than PA so it wasn’t that which put people off. In other words there was a stampede into PA and then that became a wide berth.

        Summary of Voyages Derry to US

        1803 to 1812 – PA 10; NYC 15; Baltimore 3.
        1813 to 1822 – NYC 1.
        1823 to 1832 – PA 5; NYC 2; Wilmington 3
        1833 to 1842 – PA 12; Wilmington 6
        1843 to 1852 – PA 3; NYC 4

        The peak year of sailings to PA was 1834 when they doubled compared to year before and after. Thereafter sailings from NI (Derry and Belfast) fizzled out. 3-4 sailings per year was the average apart from 1834, the boom year. Tnere were no sailings to PA in 1833 for a year after the cholera outbreak. Any relatives seeking to join up with Ulster emigrants would have had to sail to Wilmington and perhaps not bothered to trail back to PA.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm

        5 waves of immigration to PA:

        1717-1719: 5,000 Ulster men from NI immigrated in 12-13 ships. In 1717, the Marquis Of Donegal leased on his lands in Antrim expire. Those unable to pay the high rents were evicted. Between 1717-1719, 100 vessels sailed from NI with over 25,000 of them being Presbyterian.

        1725-1729: Poverty was the dominant theme. In Ireland there were not enough crops harvested. Lack of jobs meant no money to purchase food or supplies. High taxes and landlords raised rents. Those not able to pay their rent were evicted. Those out of work were at risk for starvation.

        1740-1741: Saw the first signs of emigration of the Scotch-Irish in America to Virginia, North Carolina and S. Carolina. Irish in south-east PA started to have political influence. 1740, famine in Ireland when over 400,000 people died. 1740-1750, there was a large exodus from Ireland to America.

        1728: 1 in 10 people from Ulster paid their own passage. The Irish valued owning their own land, religious and political freedom and obtaining social prominence were factors that attracted residents from NI to America.

        1775: 2,000 NI residents immigrated to America. The choice where to immigrate to was influenced by geography. Virginia and the North and South Carolina were not a choice for the Irish as these states had large plantations and slavery. Maryland was set up to be a home for Roman Catholics. Presbyterians wanted small farms. The middle colonies and New England were the best choices. Gov. William Penn encouraged the Irish to settle in Pennsylvania. An invitation to the Irish people from the Secretary also attracted them to Pennsylvania. The Delaware River was the entry point to Pennsylvania and to the Frontier and migration to the West. It is said an Irishman is not comfortable until he has moved at least twice. The first counties to be settled by the Irish were Chester, Philadelphia and New Castle. Emigration continued north of Maryland, establishing the counties of York, Cumberland and Bedford by 1775.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 1:01 pm

        The story that was found where a family was looking for their family in Ireland could be a human interest story: Finding Miss McGhee. From our first impressions of her by looking at the spelling of her name, to where she may have come from. Occupations she may have had, reasons why she might have decided to immigrate using a historical time line in US and Ireland to the pitfalls of using BMD records, map software, and family member trees. Identifying the pitfalls of not being able to find her. Maybe identifying other avenues to pursue if you still want to look.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 10, 2012 at 1:39 pm

        BTW The method I used to identify the places of origin from the ship manifests was as follows:

        Sticking to one ship at a time, I looked at clusters of people, with these clusters being defined and demarcated by family units alongside them. Assuming that it was an anxiety-provoking time, quite apart from the natural sociability of the Irish, I looked at lone passengers and who they may have hung out with, even if they had just met them. More likely I assumed that clusters would have known each other from their own townlands as well. So, for example, if you had a cluster of three young males, bounded on each side by family units, I assumed that they were in each other’s company. This turned out to be the case more often than not and with this method I garnered sixty odd names that I was able to locate and I am still not finished. This was done simply with Griffiths Valuation by a triangulation method. If I found three passengers with waxwing names that had only one parish in common, out of perhaps six possibles, I assumed they came from that parish. It is not fool-proof I know but it is a fairly good bet.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 20, 2012 at 1:36 pm

        Should we put there relationships on ancestry? I was trying to put up known associates on their profile but this doesn’t seem to see this filter just the jobs. When I look for the person I try to see if they are neighbors on the census records. I put up some of the information you put up on the profile page on ancestry. I want to get through each ship at least 1x.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 10, 2012 at 4:04 pm

        The idea of the timeline is starting grow on me as it may provide some clues. I will take that on with regards to the Irish end of things, basing it upon contemporaneous accounts in the Press viz Belfast Newsletter, Derry Journal and Strabane Morning News. Once I have that all gathered together I will send it to Vic as he is a dab hand at converting data into timelines. I have no ambitions to be a historian so I will keep whatever I find at a factual reporting level. As I said before it will probably require a good bit of sifting as much of the material in the old papers was political and imperialistic propaganda – not much has changed there then!

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 6:30 pm

        Timelines 1600’s to Present: 1.Historic Events: Irish History, US History, PA History, Irish Leaders, US leaders, PA leaders,
        2. Irish literature, speeches Timeline in US, Literary History in PA, as it pertains to Rights and Freedom for the Irish, Immigration, Irish in America United Irishman, Public opinion in Ireland, US and PA concerning the Irish
        3. Presidential or Political Parties in Ireland, US and PA as they relate to Irish immigrant and rights of Irish to join in politics and own land and the Democratic party in particular,
        4. Wars, Conflicts, Uprisings, Legislation in Ireland/ US/ PA affecting Irish,
        5. Waves Of immigration, 6.The occupations, How they got to US, Indenture, Irish funding the passage, slavery in Ireland and US,
        7. Religion as it pertains to some churches being dis-established and others are started and emigration: the expansion to the Frontier and ultimately the West.
        8.Transportation timelines especially Canals, RR and our men of Duffy’s Cut.
        9. Diseases. Yellow Fever (Under the yellow flag and the Lazaretta. Cholera- 3 waves of it etc how disease, poverty, decreased economy affected the Irish and public opinion.
        10. Present day Irish in US, PA and Ireland on the issue of education, politics, immigration back to Ireland until banks failed. Still the need for immigration. Irish Times has a website helping those who want to immigrate. Our stories we found from ancestry can be plugged into the timeline as well as technology that is used to locate them.

        1603: Accession Of James I in England. England Enforces laws against the Irish.
        1606: Lands in six counties in Ulster confiscated by the British.
        1607: Flight Of Earls O’Donnell and O’Neill To Spain.
        1608: Plantation Of Derry
        1640-1659: England is engaged in a Civil War. Oliver Cromwell defeats Royalist King Charles I and
        the Parliamentary Army. Cromwell rules England when England becomes a
        commonwealth and a Protectorate

        1641: Great Catholic Rebellion led by Rory O’Moore. Return of confiscated lands and the British
        are driven out of Northern Ireland. Catholics hold 59% of the land in Ireland.
        1646: Massachusetts approves a law that religious heresy is punishable by death.
        1649: Cromwell kills 2,000 men in Dublin and confiscates lands in Munster, Leinster and Ulster.
        1650: Catholic landowners exiled to Connaught.
        1652: Rhode Island declares slavery is illegal.
        1656: 600,000 Irish Catholics are forced into slavery in Barbados and the Carribean as a result of
        British rule in the colony.
        1658: Cromwell dies. Population of Ireland decreases by 2/3 under his reign. from 1.5 million
        inhabitants to 500,000.
        1660: England approves the Navigation Act limiting goods being imported and exported from it’s
        colonies. Only British ships can be used to transport goods. Charles II ascends the English
        1663: King Charles II establishes a colony in the Carolina’s.
        1664: New york becomes a British colony. Legislation passes that stipulates lifelong servitude for
        slaves in US.
        1672: 6,000Irish boys and woman sold as slaves in the British colony of Jamaica.
        1688: James II defeated in England. Gates of Derry closed as James’ troops attempt to enter Derry.
        1689: Siege and Relief of Derry.
        1690: King William’s War hostilities between England and France spread to NY. Royal African Trade Co. looses monopoly over slavery.
        1690: William Of Orange defeats James II at The Battle Of The Boyne.
        1692-1829: Exclusion of Catholics from Parliament and Government.
        1695: Anti-Catholic Penal laws introduced. Irish Rc hold 14% of the land in Ireland.
        1698: 1st pamphlet written against England making laws for Ireland.
        1702: Queen Anne ascends the throne: “Queen Anne’s war in the American colonies lasts
        for 11 years and ends in 1713.
        1714: Irish Catholics hold 7 of the land in Ireland.
        1740: The forgotten Famine.
        1775: Henry Grattan is leader of the Patriot Party in Ireland. Irish leader Daniel O’Connell is born.
        1782: Irish Parliament won legislative independence.
        1798: Revolution 1798. Irish leader Daniel O’Connell becomes an attorney.
        1800: Act Of Union. Goes into effect 1 Jan, 1801.
        1803: Robert Emmett’s conviction, trial and execution.
        1829: Catholic Emancipation. Tithe wars begin.
        1830: Last King Of Ireland dies in Dublin Castle
        1837: Accession of Queen Victoria
        1840: Daniel O’Connell’s Repeal Association is formed.
        1842: “The Nation” newspaper is founded in Ireland.
        1843: Daniel O’Connell holds meetings for Repeal Of Union.
        1845-1849: The Great Famine. Charles Trevelyan, Head Of the Treasury and Sir Robert Peel,
        imports Indian corn
        1846: In April depots are opened to sell the corn by summer they are closed. Repeal Of The
        Corn Laws.
        1846: Failure of the potato harvest in August. by October, 1st deaths from starvation.
        1848-1849: Worst Years Of The Famine: Trevelyan: Soup Kitchen Act. Trevelyan writes a book
        on The Famine.

        1848: Irish population is decreased by 2 million from death or immigration.
        1858: Fenian Brotherhood founded in the US and and the Irish Republican Brotherhood is
        established in Ireland.
        1865: End of the American Civil War
        1867: Fenian Rising
        1869: PM Gladstone dis-establishes the Protestant Church in Ireland.
        1870: Gladstone’s 1st Land Act
        1875: Charles Stewart Parnell elected MP in County Meath
        1879: Threat of a famine. Evictions. establishment of the Irish National League
        1879-1882: Land war
        1881: Gladstone’s 2nd Land Act
        1882: Kilmainham “Treaty”, Parnell is released from prison.
        1886: 1st Home Rule Bill
        1891: Parnell loses 3 by-elections in Ireland and dies in October.
        1893: 2nd Home Rule Bill
        1903: Land Purchase Act
        1906: Liberals win the election
        1912: 3rd Home Rule Bill
        1914: WWI
        1916: Easter Rising in Dublin. May 3-12 executions.
        1917: De Valera wins in East Clare
        1918: End WWI
        1919-1921: Anglo-Irish Treaty. Irish War Of Independence
        1922: Civil War between Free State Army and the IRA
        1923: End of the Civil war
        1926: De Valera founded the Fianna Fail
        1932: Fianna Fail wins the general election
        1937: Constitution Of Eire: claims 32 counties
        1939: WWII: Ireland is neutral
        Just some Ireland topics we covered. if we could weave some of the other timelines it might be interesting.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 9:33 pm

        typo: 1714: Should say: Irish Catholics own 7% of the land in Ireland.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 10:07 pm

        Railroad Timeline:
        1804: “Golden Age of railroads” also known as the “age of the iron Horse” begins. Richard Trevithick hitches a steam engine to a coal wagon over 9 miles of track in England.
        1824: George Stevenson builds first public railroad in England.
        1825: Stockton and Darlington Railroad is established in England linking 2 towns 20 miles apart.
        1825: Directors of the Hudson Canal Company sent 2 engineers to investigate the steam locomotive. They order 4 locomotives at a cost of $12, 515.58. One of them was the Stourbridge Lion . It was the first locomotive to run in America. Canal boats on the Eire Canal was a vital transportation system.
        1827: A survey is initiated to plan the track location for the Columbia and Pennsylvania Railroad.
        1829: Stourbridge Lion runs on 16 miles of track in Pennsylvania. It was used to pull coal from the mines from Carbondale to Honesdale. The 7 ton locomotive was deemed to heavy.
        1830: The steam locomotive: The Best Friend Of Charleston was built in NY and the South Carolina Canal and Railroad Company built a 127 mile track from Charleston to Hamburg, Georgia. It’s first run was 25 Dec 1830. It could pull 50 passengers in a half-dozen cars at 20 miles per hour.
        1831: In Pennsylvania the Pennsylvania Railroad made a contract to build a railroad track on mile 59.
        1850: 11 states had granted railroad charters. Over 1,000 miles of track were used.
        1860’s during the American Civil war both the confederate and the Union armies realized that the railroad’s were vital to their supplying and transporting their troops.

  99. Eileen Breen

    December 8, 2012 at 2:05 pm

    From the updated name list the other day:

    Elizabeth McKnight: There are a few trees with this name. From the Census: Reading, Berks, PA; Washington, Jefferson, PA; Allegheny, PA; Delaware, Juanita, PA.

    James Nance: Found nothing in PA. I saw a few states with that name: Ill, NC, Indiana, but nothing looked promising.

    Peter Diermott: Nothing coming up at all for him.

    John Carland: Nothing for him. Civ War marker in NH, a few family trees but nothing promising.

    James McKinney: d. 1878 in Philadelphia ward 26; also a McCanney tree with similar birth year, perhaps a misspelling of the name.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 8, 2012 at 8:17 pm

      From the Asia: Eliza McNamee

      Lots of McNamees in Philadelphia, only one Elizabeth married to a James. The last name is probably her married name. She’s a spinster on the ship’s list. One in OH, one in NY.

      William Hill: Farmer. Only listed as a weaver in two censuses. He came with a brother James Hill. Can’t find them together. In 1860 W. Hill is a plasterer. Other censuses for James in Philadelphia birth dates don’t match for the occupation.

      Sterling Family: I tried lots of combinations for them but I can’t find any census that has them all in it. James aged 30 might be the father of Mary Ann aged 2 and Sarah Jane aged 3. Isabelle may be his sister aged 24. I tried Isabelle as the mother too. Mary aged 50 is a spinster so she may be an Aunt to James and Isabelle.

      Alice McSwine: There are McSwines in Philadelphia and in surrounding PA but no Alice. Note: McSwine’s Gun: Located in Donegal: A cavern. Photo of a drawing of this place and a description of it. It can be googled also. Maybe the name is from Donegal. Ship manifest says she is from Ireland, no townland or county given.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 8, 2012 at 9:35 pm

        Mary and Andrew Morrison: too many choices.

        William Balentine: William R. married Andrews in Philadelphia, no date with the record. No good choices.

        Samuel Adams: 1850 death date in Philadelphia: Cholera. Kensington Methodist Church.

        Mary Black: too many choices.

        Didn’t find anyone today 😦

      • Eileen Breen

        December 9, 2012 at 1:04 am

        FFT: I saw a book online about managing a genealogy research project. A few ideas came up:

        To do a journal of negative results, do a correspondence log. If a book or periodical was used, reference it (Ancestry has a place for it), and do a research journal. This might be helpful if Mary does the story on pitfalls and success with using the mapping software on ancestry. I’m still working out the details for the class etc.. There is supposed to be a numbering system for each ancestor depending on status in the family. On Ancestry we can put in relationships so I’m not sure we need it.

    • Mary Cornell

      December 9, 2012 at 8:15 am

      Did the first run through of the Asia and have come to the conclusion that most of the passengers were put into the witness protection program when they landed in Philadelphia. Not very many leads, but did find two different possibilities for the Bradley brothers. Possibility they went to New Jersey, but then it looks like they returned to Pennsylvania. Or these are different Bradleys altogether.

      The most interesting family that I found was the McFate family who seem to be in Sugar Creek, Venango County, PA. I found a Letitia McFate married to a John Culbertson who are on the ship with the McFate family. In the 1850 census, there is a Jane and Sara McFate living with John Culbertson in Sugar Creek. Several other McFates are living in the same general vicinity of each other in Sugar Creek.

      If you want to see how not to do research, you need to check out the Rootsweb family trees that have been put up for the McFate family. It is not just one contributor, but they all have put together a jumbled mess of family members. So either they were copying off someone who hadn’t a clue about how to do research or none of them knew how to do research. Here are the three names of the towns where the McFates were from. Drumhaven, Donegal…Drumhevirre, Donegal… or Drumhavre, Donegal. My bet would be on Drumhaven. Several of the trees have Letitia getting married a year after she died and having children up to five years later. Other trees have children and spouses born before 1850 as still being alive. And my favorite is the famous town of Landerry, Ireland. I apologize if there is in fact, a Landerry, but I think they mean Londonderry.

      There is one thing that ticks me off to no end is that Letitia McFate is listed as being baptized into the LDS Church in 1912, seventy years after she died. Something that is still practiced today by the LDS Church, though denied. The more souls on your family tree supposedly gets you a higher place in the seven heavens. The gall of the act is what gets me. But I digress,… These particular trees should be used as examples of shoddy research. It also pinpoints why knowledge of the history, geography, politics, religions and ideas of an era are so important in genealogy.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 9, 2012 at 7:49 pm

        Nice job Mary: I have looked at Rootsweb before and I don’t particularly care for it. People’s trees are confusing like the Aikins’ tree that’s on it.

        I think when we look at social timelines we often see them as one for Ireland and one for US. It might be interesting to put it on a spreadsheet listing as many types of social timelines that we can think of as it applies to Irish Immigration to Philadelphia and Emigration to the West. I was thinking for our research to look at timelines for Ireland and America as they affected immigration from 1700-1900s.

        In US and Ireland: Political Parties, People Of Influence, Legislation that assisted or discouraged Irish, Heads Of Churches who imposed laws against Irish RCs and Irish Protestants, waves of Immigration in 1700-1800s, Political Parties in Ireland and US, Occupations, Historic Events, Transportation, Geography, Public Opinion, Fraternal Organizations and those who supported the Irish. Maybe we can come up with some more.

        I was also thinking about the mapping thing. It could be interesting to test out a few different types of genealogy mapping software: Ancestry, Family Tree Maker and others. Then look at someone’s experience in Irish history and genealogy with 0-3 years experience, 3- 5 years and 5 plus years, and have them try to find samples of people from Our ships: either a single person, a family and/or some of our missing people and see if they come up with any results. It could be interesting to see if they could perform skills such as copying info from someone’s tree like a photo, emailing a member or finding a certain record. Then they could help to critique mapping-based genealogy software, its pitfalls and success stories, which program was easiest to use or that they liked or disliked.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 1:28 am

        I think you were right about studying Irish history first. The more I looked at various sites and books on genealogy, they all seem to talk about how they did a specific person and the records they searched. They all used the same basic records. Between databases on sites like ancestry and a good local library or regional library I think most people can find the databases to start a search. The problem lies with little or no information to go on. With just a name, birth year and country of origin it’s going to be extremely difficult to find people. There is a site online that helps to find cold cases like this and you can volunteer to help using your genealogy skills. I think certification could be icing on the cake but to understand the history would be the ideal. My brother said he uses map software for his job. He said it’s like the ancestry software that the more data you put in when your looking up a certain topic the better your results are. He told me there’s math behind it! That’s your job! He thought maybe researching the logic behind map software might help us in our research.

      • Mary Cornell

        December 10, 2012 at 6:22 am

        Thanks Eileen. I decided to give Rootsweb another chance because it can provide clues to a family. I chose the Aiken family as my subject. Luckily, the first tree I chose seemed to be well documented and the reason I know this it is because the information matches the information you found on Ancestry. The tidbits I found on this particular tree might help you in your search for the Aiken/McQuigg families in NI, Don. According to the tree, the families of the Aikens and McQuiggs are related by marriage. James Aiken’s mother was Mary McQuigg. Both are listed as being from Ballymena, Antrim.

        I like your idea of testing out your mapping ideas. Maybe it could be possible to somehow incorporate the ideas of the times into the schematic? My peeve with the current systems is the constant paging back and forth. I often lose track of what I was looking for in the first place.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 10, 2012 at 8:16 am

        The McQuiggs appear from the 1803 Agricultural Census to have mainly been from Rathlin Island off Ballycastle in County Antrim and are listed as:

        Patrick, John, Aeneas, Henry, Michael.

        There were offshoots of them further west who had come ashore and they were based in Dunluce and Ballintoy: James, Alexander, Catherine.

        McQuigg (a Mayo clan) in Irish means ‘unkempt’ or ‘scruffy’ and is similar to Quigley, a counterpart from Donegal.

        Dr Ronagh McQuigg doesn’t look a bit scruffy and she is a law lecturer in Belfast. She is an expert in international law as it pertains to domestic violence against women.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 10, 2012 at 12:31 pm

        Can you open 2 screens on the same page? I heard that’s helpful. May contacting the family might give us some clues. I had contact one person who had a little insight. There were many people researching this tree on line on rootsweb and ancestry. Maybe the man that put up the tree on Rootsweb might be worthwhile. I think he started the tree and others on ancestry added to it. Also there is a book: Some history of the Aikin’s family that’s in a library. Feel free to add information to the ancestry tree or change it if you find something needs changing.

  100. Eileen Breen

    December 7, 2012 at 2:26 am

    I think the cholera pandemic, prejudice, racism and its social impact on the Irish in Philadelphia and surrounding neighborhoods would be a good study. I saw that the BC genealogy certificate program has a forensic genealogy course as part of the four month course. I sent you all two articles from NPR on forensic genealogy. One was what it is and the other is how police used a computer program to track crime that was originally used to track pandemics. I thought their approach was interesting. They could pinpoint areas of crime and analyze the information to see if the crime was spreading. I would like to use it to plug in all our data!

    • Eileen Breen

      December 7, 2012 at 2:47 am

      Instead of plugging in “crimes” we could plug where they came from, which ships everyone came off of, where they went, what happened to them (jobs, social factors such as prejudice, poverty, indenture), disease, crime, births, marriages, deaths, religion migration within a family).

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 7, 2012 at 7:58 am

        Now this is where I display my prejudice! This mapping study sounds an awful lot more exciting to me than the historical study on cholera and it introduces or develops a whole new method to genealogical research. My own doctoral research took a method used in racial conflict to study identity, linked it up with decision theory, and applied it in a clinical sphere in a way that it had never been done before to study disposition and intention. My point being if you have a proposal that takes a totally fresh approach to an area of study it could fire a potential supervisor’s imagination that he might want to throw his weight behind it. If you did decide to look at forensic genealogy further it would be throwing sand in the face of the seemingly ramshackle approach that the likes of the Watsons and other so-called historians took to things.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 8, 2012 at 12:03 am

      There’s an ArcGIS Explorer for free. It can be viewed on-line and maps/data can be shared within the group.

  101. Eileen Breen

    December 7, 2012 at 1:23 am

    I wrote to BC for info. They say the majority of people who go through this program teach, write and present papers. Teaching is not for me. Also, the program has a lot of literature which isn’t my thing either. I would rather do research. The sociology aspect interests me but I didn’t see it on their site. So I’ll see what’s up when I talk to them. The other certificate program might be useful too. It’s a four-month course.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 7, 2012 at 8:22 am

      I think you have been misinformed or partially misinformed, depending who you were speaking to. If you are on a so-called Fellowship or some such, you are probably quite likely to be hooked into teaching and such like my friend Deb Wilson was. This is because, in her case, she had come over from the US as a mature student on a cultural exchange scheme, she liked the place and she decided to stay. Although she was a well-qualified social worker, her visa did not permit her at first to apply in open competition for permanent jobs here so she did bits and pieces of temp jobs. She applied for and she was offered a Fellowship to study for her PhD. This became her sole source of income which she was happy enough about as it gave her some security. The downside was that she became an honorary member of staff of the University and was required to do some teaching or other bits of small commissioned research for the University – basically to fund her Fellowship. In my case none of that applied as I was a part-time student and I held onto my day job so the University could not place any demands upon me.

      As far as the literature part of the course goes, this sounds to me like misinformation and relates to the MA rather than the PhD. As I said before, a PhD has no course content as it is not a taught degree course and you have a completely free hand with regards to what you do with your time subject to two restrictions – you must comply with whatever the supervisor wants of you to enable timely progress reports, and you must meet the target deadlines for completing the different components of the thesis or dissertation as you call it. Therefore, there is nothing in the curriculum other than what you choose to put into it, subject to the appropriate SMARTER guidance of the supervisor. SMARTER is an acronym for Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Time-sensitive, Evaluative, Reviewable.

      BTW I forgot to mention my research involved a form of statistical mapping called SEM or Structural Equation Modelling, otherwise known as covariance structure analysis, using a computer programme called AMOS, but there are other ones such as EQS (which is fine) and LISREL (which I didn’t like). You don’t need statistics to use them although in my case I did use quite a lot. Sounds to me like the forensic mapping would use something along similar lines.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 7, 2012 at 1:19 pm

        Thanks for all the insight. I really have a lot to think about. I think I’m beginning to understand! I don’t need an MA first and then a Ph.D? I think the program I saw for BC was a MA program. I was trying to find Ph.D information but kept finding the MA program. I asked for information but I haven’t heard yet. I’ll look into what mapping program they used on the NPR and try to see if their study is available. I was thinking the police mapping study had variables that were static and one that was dynamic; how the crime moved from from neighborhood to the next. That’s why I thought cholera. But later I was thinking the dynamic variable could be the migration?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 7, 2012 at 2:05 pm

        There are Research Masters degrees as well and they are called MPhil or some equivalent. I did a Masters before my PhD but, if it is research you are interested in, it sounds to me you should avoid any other kind of Masters degree. It is possible if you are going straight from a primary degree that they might require you to do a module or two in any perceived areas of weakness, or because they put that as a basic requirement. Or indeed, for that matter, you could volunteer to do additional courses if you thought that doing them – eg Irish and/or American History of the period, or a crash course in statistics, or research methods, or English writing skills – would strengthen your ability to do the research degree well. I skipped all of mine because they were modules and exams in my Masters.

        SEM will do perfectly well any social research incl. mapping or trend analysis you have in mind to do and you don’t need to specify dynamic variables, or you can if you want, that’s entirely up to you. Analysis of dynamic variables, by the way, is just another term for repeated-measurement, and it is no more difficult to do.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 7, 2012 at 3:06 pm

        BU also has a forensic genealogy course and I asked them about a Ph.D. Capella University on-line had a Criminal Justice Ph.D program but it didn’t have the forensic genealogy part.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 7, 2012 at 4:34 pm

        How Many Fish are in the Pond

        Just for fun:

        Note: Be wary of the answer suggested by the hint. It’s not right either!

      • Mary Cornell

        December 7, 2012 at 6:31 pm

        Using this method would only work in a pond. No matter how big the pond, it has boundaries that cannot be breached. Since animals and people migrate back and forth, a gross underestimation of the population will occur. A geographically isolated location would give a closer estimate, but my guess is that it would also be on the low side. This would also go back to Eileen’s idea that the migration has to be the dynamic when considering mapping for a forensic genealogy study.

        I forgot this. The other day, Eileen eliminated a choice because the age of fourteen sounded too young for a wife. The years we are looking at girls were often married young. In my family tree, there were several of the girls who married at fourteen and started having children at fifteen.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 7, 2012 at 6:47 pm

        The Pond Puzzle

        A good start. Any more offers?

      • Eileen Breen

        December 7, 2012 at 9:58 pm

        Do you have to keep catching and releasing so many times before you get an accurate number?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 7, 2012 at 11:01 pm

        Exactly so, ‘got it in one’ as the saying goes.

        There is never a unique number that is the ‘true’ and only correct answer. There is only ever an estimate, an approximate that is in turn within the range that is possible. That is what statistics is all about. To get the range one needs repeated sampling and then take the average, mean, median or mode (some one of these) as the best estimate.

        Quite apart from the numeration, one has to account for effects such as depletion (Mary’s pond analogy), attrition (death), growth (birth), responder bias (taking the bait), masking (trap-shyness), sampling errors (using the wrong bait), confounding (different species) etc etc.

        That about sums it up. To carry out a proper capture-recapture estimation would require advanced calculus, not a simple sum.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 8, 2012 at 1:45 am

        Count me out! I checked out ArcExplorer On Line and it says it’s free but it’s a free trial then $2500/ yr but 5 people can use it at at time. They have a lot of nice tools to use. They also have software to put in large amounts of information and track demographics, competition, supply and demand (sounds like a business model that maybe could be changed to a ancestry one) Ancestry has GPS maps that you can see from each person’s profile. It would be interesting if Ancestry could add to their mapping software so you could track migration or other things you want to track.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 8, 2012 at 2:38 am

        Ancestry uses mapping software right? Do why not use it to track all people from various counties: Derry, Antrim, Tyrone, Donegal; those on the ships; woman, men; laborers; spinsters; children; other types of labor; internal migration – how many stayed in Philadelphia, how many went to ohio, Ill, Tx, or other places – we could make a tree for each, also we can use the photo of each person in these trees. Our main trees are the ones we have now in which we could hold all the records we find, birth, marriage, death, census, land, naturalization, passport, military etc. The GPS map on ancestry would highlight where they came from and where they immigrated to.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 8, 2012 at 11:08 am

        That seems to be a massive project, one worthy of a book in its own right. If you are up for it, you should take the lead and you can count me in. It is also a project worthy of a PhD, all-told I figure it would have a gestation period of five years to bring to completion, but it is do-able and you could do the two in parallel. All the criteria you listed are easily handled and analysable within SPSS which is the standard statistical package for social sciences.

        BTW The fishpond seemed to me to be a very good analogy for the Waxwing project. That is why I put it up as a poser. Within the numeration, one has to account for the effects of depletion (Mary’s pond) = internal migration from PA to TX and elsewhere, attrition = death, growth = birth, responder bias (taking the bait)= Ulster-Scot waxwings (or pike versus trout to stick with fish) are easier caught; masking (trap-shyness) = indentured labourers are not captured by censuses; method of capture (net or line)= different methods such as Griffiths / Flaxgrowers versus / Tithe Holders pick up or fail to pick up same names; sampling errors (using the wrong bait)=; vectors (fish disease, cholera, murder)= independent events interfere with natural process; confounding (fishing in the shade versus bright sunlight)= looking only in Philly or West Chester and placing too much reliance on particular directories eg McElroy of unknown reliability.

        I could beat the analogy to death but you get the gist. Capture-recapture seems to be what the exercise is all about. If the fish is caught once, put back, then never seen again, does that mean it has died, it has got crafty or it has escaped the pond?

      • Mary Cornell

        December 8, 2012 at 6:41 am

        If it weren’t for the numbers, statistics would be fun.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 8, 2012 at 11:30 am

        I agree! Mary: do this with me! I was thinking that the people on the four ships are the fish in the pond. Our waxwings are the marked ‘fish’. Then we keep catching and releasing them until we find them all? Or come up with something we can measure, depending on what we find?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 8, 2012 at 11:52 am

        I meant to say has the fish died (as the Watsons would have it), got crafty or escaped the pond (I said escaped twice, ommiting death).

      • Mary Cornell

        December 8, 2012 at 5:58 pm

        Exactly, Eileen. We are dealing with some pretty cagey fish. Our problem seems to be that we catch those who are masquerading as our waxwings. We have two choices. We can keep fishing in the same spot (meaning location, not source) and wait for them to pass by (least likely, but not impossible) or we can constantly change spots (least desirable, we get lost in the possibilities). If we could find a definitive way to keep or eliminate our possibilities, I think the pond would become much smaller. I don’t see any easy way on that idea so I guess we will be constantly catching and releasing. So far, I have gone through the constantly updated waxwings at least a dozen times and do not have any definitives. Do we at some point remove a name from our waxwings and place it in the lost column?

        BTW Talk about mixed metaphors – waxwings and fish! Neither one can live in the others’ enviroment (sp).

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 8, 2012 at 7:59 pm

        I haven’t made any attempt yet really to look at the US side of things and I have just finished the vignettes on the DuffyTemp page. I have started having a measure of success in pinning down the location of origin of some of these waxwings and I am about to have a second pass at them – more details tomorrow.

  102. Eileen Breen

    December 7, 2012 at 12:39 am

    I think I found the Rae family from the Asia and there are several families researching this but no interesting histories or photos yet. Basically, James Rae b 1777 from Ireland immigrated with his sister Susan who was single and his children: James b. 1809, Ruth b 1814 and Samuel b 1817. Samuel Rae is found in the 1860 Census and was married to Mary W. Polly Dickey of Armstrong, Indiana, PA. They had four children between the 1860 and 1880 censuses. The children were James F b 1848, Hannah I. b 1850, William D b 1854 and George S. b 1858. Susan who was James Rae’s sister was living with them. In the 1870 census Samuel was a farmer, his land was worth $1300 and his personal estate was worth $1100.00. By 1880 he was listed as a farmer but he was disabled. A family tree has his death date as 1908 but I haven’t found the death date to confirm it. I think that might be all we get from this unless I find military records on the younger generation. Time to move on I think. I also saw records, but not matching, for Raes living around Antrim in earlier and other US censuses but I couldn’t find this family in 1840, 1850, 1890 or 1900.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 8, 2012 at 12:40 pm

      Five generations of the Rae family up on the Asia family tree. We have a few tombstone photos and one old photo. This family stayed around the Indiana, PA area. The modern family spread out a little in PA but close to where the original family was. The family spells the name Ray (see tombstones). Also all the censuses except the original family spells the name as Ray.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm

        And I think they were spelt Rea on the ship’s manifest?

      • Eileen Breen

        December 9, 2012 at 12:17 pm

        Rae in on the manifests for the original family and everyone else is Ray. I did see other trees on line with spelling Rae.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 9, 2012 at 1:50 pm

        I must have been looking at a different lot that are listed as Tea which I took to be Rea.

        Anyway, I have been having some success pinpointing the original locations of our waxwings (60 in total) and that is still just my first stab at it. I have put up the details alongside the names with the vignettes. They are not yet entered into the database. I have arrived at these by a rough-and-ready eyeball test but I may well apply a more sophisticated test later on – something in the nature of logistic regression but that is for later. My main effort at present is to get the maximum amount of info about the waxwings before they have left the nest. When I am ready I will ask if the extra details can be put onto Ancestry or grit my teeth and try to do it myself!

        The location details that are given in most cases are three in number – townland (60+%), parish (80+%) and county (90+%) – where the numbers in brackets refer to my level of confidence that I am correct. I have quite a bit more to do on it but I am taking a break now as I have been at it for hours (not complaining as I have been in the zone). The aikens are bugging me and not being able to locate Ballyhall yet where a mysterious McQuigg also comes from.

  103. maccarleo

    December 6, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    Looking at the BC Irish studies program, it would be perfect for you Eileen. And it is not expected that you go down and enroll today. It is FFT and though I cannot speak for the others, I will be there for moral support if you need it. Besides, with all of the information we have, your dissertation is already halfway there.

  104. Eileen Breen

    December 5, 2012 at 11:31 pm

    We just got a note on ancestry from George Kerr re. Mary Ballantine who was Archy Ballantine Sr’s sister. Mary married a William I. Pollock and they had a daughter Margaret who married George Kerr. The man who is writing to us is George Kerr and Margaret Pollock’s grandson (on Ancestry he is georgekerr123). He states “I have no insights into the motives of Archy Ballantine but my Great-Grandfather George Kerr came from Ireland with two brothers and they were indentured farm hands in Downington, Pennsylvania. Free to leave in 1849, George Kerr emigrated to California to pan for gold where in 1852 he married a daughter of a farmer who had bought his indenture and inherited a farm.

    I had read that indentured servants were done with in Philadelphia by 1829 but the Kerrs were indentured much later. Maybe we need to look at indentured schedules for our Duffy’s Cut laborers? I also read that the average period for indentured servants was fourteen years for adults and seven years for children. Over seventy per cent of the people didn’t survive being indentured becuse of the harsh conditions. If the servant thought he was almost done with it the farm owner could tack on more money he owed thus keeping him indentured forever.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 6, 2012 at 12:15 am

      Being indentured in the US sounds exactly like being a convict in Australia then? Fourteen years was one of the sentences there if it wasn’t the seven for a lesser ‘crime’ or the life sentence for a more serious. Funny that the lengths of term were exactly the same for convicts as for indentured servants?

      • Eileen Breen

        December 6, 2012 at 2:41 am

        I’m a little puzzled why George Kerr and his brother Henry sailed on the ship Jamestown from Liverpool to NY 20 on March 1848. On the ship manifest it says George was aged 20 and a farmer from Ireland. Nothing on the manifest says anything about being indentured. I tried to look for advertizements from ship captains to sell indentured servents either in NY or PA. There is a newspaper called the Gazetter in Virginia that is supposed to have a lot of these ads in thev1700s. I’m unclear why the Kerr brothers went to NY then PA. I also tried to look for any contracts for indentured servants in East Bradford, PA. There is a book on-line for free about Indentured servants in Pennsylvania, ‘Redemptioners To Philadelphia’. I sent you the link. I tried to go back to send it to Mary and Vic but I lost it somehow so I’ll try to put up the name again later. George Kerr’s grandson said they were married in 1852 but I think it was 1858. Margaret would have been fourteen in 1852. I tried to find him in the Civil War but there were too many choices for his name.

        It is interesting to note thatbthere was a period in England when they indentured convicts and the poor. It became such a problem in Maryland when runaway indentured convicts took off in the surrounding cities. Maryland was the top spot for indentured convicts from England. There were numerous advertizements for the return of the convicts. In the late 1700s in Philadelphia the cost of a female indentured servant fresh off the boat was $70.00, men $80.00 and boys $60.00.

        Indentured Service was where “one party agrees to serve another for a period of years in exchange for an initial payment or money”. Indentured Servant were seen as property and they were subjected to various constraints by their masters. Masters were not supposed to have total control over them but they controlled the length of service, conditions and the type of work to be done. Theybcould increase the length of service at will.

        A proprietor received fifty acres for each servant or laborer he recruited to Pennsylvania. The proprietor had an ‘acquaintanceship’ with the ‘Masters’. Contracts were oral, based on their customs in their home country. Later on the contracts were written and became less about customs. Initially, Indentured Servants in PA cleared forests and were skilled laborers. Labor became expensive as America expanded into the West and America then depended on a mixed labor system of slaves and Indentured servants.

        In England in 1707 at the time of the Act Of Union, Indentured Servants came from Great Britain. By the mid-to-late 18th century Indentured Servants from Northern Ireland and Germany filled the need for cheap labor. In 1720 the Redemptionist System replaced the older structure of labor and was the greatest source of free labor in Pennsylvania well into the 18th century.

        Ships carrying servants had to furnish within 24 hours a Justice Of The Peace with a list of all those being imported, including their crimes. If they were found fit to enter the country, the J.P. wound grant the merchant or captain a ‘Certificate Of Permission’. Without this, an Indentured Servant would be freed from any obligations despite having made a contract with a master. By 1789 there were laws forbidding the transportation of convicts and ‘undesirables’.

        Ships’ captains would place ads in newspapers for Servants and Redemptioners from Londonderry and listed men, woman and boys and their occupations. Terms could be appled for to the ships captain, giving the name of the ship and the Port of Philadelphia. Immigrants funding their passages to America’s colonies disrupted the free labor system. Europeans were enjoying a higher income for their labor and as a result prices for passage began to decline. Recent immigrants were funding their family to come to live with them through a system called ‘remittances’.

        In Great Britain those wishing to fund their passage to America did so by entering a contract with a merchant. Individuals sold their ‘labor’ to the ‘master’ of the ship. The ‘Master’ had to sell his labor to a ‘Buyer’ in America to pay for the passage. The laborer would have to pay for any extra expenses, bring their own food or buy it on board. If a family member died during the voyage, the family would have to pay his share of the passage. There are many accounts where a ship’s captain would be responsible for locking up and handing out the food and water. In one case a ship was lost at sea for four months, someone broke into the food cabinet and the whole ship was ‘punished’ for it and the captain refused to feed the passengers. In many cases whole ships of passengers starved to death.

        Before a servant left Europe he had to go to court to show that he agreed to the agreement freely if he was over the age of 21 years of age and he would be ‘bonded’. In PA if a servant was under 21 years he was registered as an ‘apprentice’ which meant that some type of education was expected to take place but it was not mandatory. Children often worked in the fields instead.

        Unscrupulous masters manipulated the system and hired laborers without a written contract. The laborer could not then go to court to dispute the length or terms of a contract. Contracts for male children ended when aged 21 or 22 and for girls at age 18. For adults the contract was based upon their productivity, and if they had a trade, upon their gender and level of education. At the end of the contract the master was required to bring the servant back to court within three months of the end of their contract. The Indentured Servant had to pay a for their freedom and any provisions that the master provided to the servant. The servant’s contract would be lengthened to pay for their freedom and provisions. If a indentured servant was a criminal he could work off his sentence and absolve his crimes.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 6, 2012 at 2:49 am

        I agree the Indentured servant system was like that in Australia. In Pennsylvania the free labor system occurred longer than in other colonies. I was thinking our children on the ships could they have been indentured if they were deemed a burden to a large family in Ireland?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 6, 2012 at 8:30 am

        All of that seems to fit but you start to wonder where the advantage was for Irish people to sign up for indentured or slave labour in the US. Did word never get back to Ireland just how awful the conditions were? Did illiterate people know what they were putting their mark to? Were the English establishment, especially the courts, complicit in all of this just to get the Irish out of the country. Viz ‘if they’re stupid enough to fall for it they deserve everything that is coming to them’ or ‘sure the Famine is round the corner and we’re doing them a favour’. Also, the same courts were busily sending so-called convicts to Australia for the most trivial of offences to colonise the place. “Steal a handkerchief or a loaf of bread and you will get seven years’ hard labour in Australia. Don’t steal the handkerchief but sign here and you will get seven years’ hard labour in the US. Makes no difference to us”?

        I haven’t read the papers of the period for a while but I think they must have glossed over all of this because I haven’t picked up any whiff of it, so maybe they were complicit too. Mostly what you got was a full front page of the latest debates in Westminster, which were of no interest to anyone, details of which ships were expected to arrive from the US, the prices of food and other produce, what crimes had been reported, court appearances. No sense of outrage or concern about conditions, just ‘business as usual’.

        I have quite a famous book by Michael Hechter ‘Internal Colonialism – the Celtic fringe in British national development 1536 – 1966’ but it really does not look at these issues, nor does Terence McDonough’s book on ‘Was Ireland a Colony’? You could open a whole new can of worms here! I get quite outraged thinking about these things but I am not thinking of starting up a new career as a political historian, so, ah well! I will have to leave this for the new crop of students enrolling at Boston College!

      • Eileen Breen

        December 6, 2012 at 3:50 am

        I read in one article that the indentured servant’s term was five years for an adult but it could, depending on a lot of factors, be increased. On the updated name list Ontario: Ellis Slavin, male found in PEI and New Brunswick in Canada. Too many choices for Catherine Rodgers. Name John Bole, not finding much but the name Boyle might give more choices in Letterkenny. I saw a Henry Boyle (not on our list) in Letterkeknny who went to Philadelphia. There was a John Boyle (on our list) in his tree but the dates are wrong. Jane Devlin, there is one listed in Ward 7 and one in Ward 17. One had a family and one was single and a death date in Philadelphia. That was just a quick look.

    • Mary Cornell

      December 6, 2012 at 7:44 am

      I have been off-course for the last couple of days because I found this great website, free Irish genealogy e-books. Lots of great reading. Tonight I read a book by George McAleer on the origin of the name, McAleer. Last night I read on the Allison family. It seems they were rather large landowners in Northern Ireland and the same in Chester County, PA. Likewise, a book on the Stewarts of Green Hill, Letterkenny, was full of detail. So far no connections with any of our group, but some of the books are just interesting to page through. There is a book on three hundred years of Londonderry written around 1800. A great deal of opinion is presented but it still has a lot of detail. The link I am sending is for the Irish Name histories page with the McAleer link.

      I will comment on everything you guys have been finding in the next post. It seems some of our waxwings are refusing to give up their songs, but the ones that have do have wonderful tunes to sing.

      PSSST. Eileen, I think we are but mere pawns in Don’s quest for his love, Eliza!

      • Eileen Breen

        December 6, 2012 at 12:57 pm

        I agree, Mary. I’ll keep looking for Miss McGhee for Don! Did you write to the Kerr family. His timeline doesn’t seem quite right. First to be indentured, then to go to California which probably took six months in a covered wagon each way, plus time and money to pan for gold, then to return to get married in PA. Why not stay in California? Mary, these books look great. Maybe they will shed some light on the Allisons and the Stewarts.

        Don, for the sake of argument. What would be an advantage of going through a doctorate program versus a certificate program like Boston College? What project did you have in mind and what field would the degree be in? I’m assuming if I did a degree program I would have to start at the beginning. I have a bachelor’s degree but not in anything related to this.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 6, 2012 at 2:05 pm

        I could give a very long-winded answer to this but I will try to keep it cogent and succinct, Eileen. I will also try to keep in mind that I am really only familiar with the UK system but I guess the same principles apply.

        First off, and this is not intended as flattery, I believe you have the kind of mind that would lend itself exceedingly well to a doctorate and the fact you have a bachelor’s degree, irrespective of what it is in (but it is a necessary entrance requirement), gives you a headstart. Also, and more so in recent years, there is a realisation by universities that the route to a PhD is not always straight off the back of just having completed the primary degree – many years may have elapsed.

        The criteria which have to be satisfied to be awarded the research degree that is the PhD or equivalent are a)the work is your own b) it is original c) it adds to what is already known about the chosen area d) it adds new knowledge to the subject area ie it is not merely ‘more of the same’ e) it demonstrates knowledge and application of scientific principles of investigation f)it is presented and written up in a coherent style with good command of language.

        The point of all the above is that when and if meaning to utilise the doctorate as evidence of suitability for a higher position in employment then all of the above mental faculties can be taken as read. Anyone who has a doctorate can be assumed to be thorough, methodical, analytical, driven, self-motivating, open-minded etc. These mental faculties cannot be assumed to be present in someone who has a Certificate or some other qualification that has been taught – a doctorate has not been taught.

        I’ll leave it at that momentarily until you come back to me for any further clarification you might need on any of the above or anything else. I do have other thoughts on where this all fits into what has evolved from the FTT which to my mind is quite amazing.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 6, 2012 at 9:30 pm

        That’s a start but don’t you have to pick a field of study. That’s where I’m confused. Thinking about it, I really like researching. I’m not sure I want to be a genealogist although it would be nice to know the tricks of the trade. I like Irish history and I am not so much interested in English/Irish Literature but having some background might be OK. But I am intrigued about what subjects or types of projects would come out of what we’re working on or to add more depth to the subjects.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 6, 2012 at 11:43 pm

        I think how you come at it depends on a variety of factors such as – motivation for doing it, strength of interest and enthusiasm for the area of study, own personality type, availability and quality of support from experienced researchers, ongoing research programme within the academic institution in chosen research area.

        Looking at Boston College for example, the doctoral supervisors in this area who might have relevance to Irish immigration appear to be Kevin Kenny

        and Kevin O’Neill

        An overview of the faculty can be found at

        If you were toying with taking this further and ‘the humour is on you now’ in the words of the old song, be aware that you have to enrol by 1st February if you had next Fall in mind to start. The thing to do would be to have a meeting with Professor Kenny or Professor O’Neill or both and to verbally present a proposed line of research.

        Before I give this any further thought I suggest you go over the posts that were generated since Mary first brought up the subject of Duffy’s Cut. Make a list of the areas that are begging for further research and top slice the top three. See which of these connect best with the fields of interest of the Professors and make a pitch.

        I know what areas I would have in mind but it would be better coming from you. When you are up against tight deadlines which, unless you are a super-organiser, you inevitably will be then your driving force will be the passion that you have for your self-chosen subject, not one that was given to you.

        My choice of doctorate subject was at the third or fourth time of asking. After the first neurophysiology subject was proposed by my professor and rejected by me, the subject I had in mind to research was in neuropharmacology: lithium-induced endothelial stabilisation; then it was carbohydrate-deficient transferrin activity in maternal alcohol abuse; before plumping for a subject in the totally different area of social psychology – maternal identity and parental disposition. You get the drift, the choice will probably change several times before you decide.

        I do think however that social history will be your forte, much as Vic has suggested, rather than genealogy per se which can be an important tool that you use but nothing more. I think I have rabbited on enough for now.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 6, 2012 at 4:03 pm

        Another Name Source

        Application to Vote Donegal 1829

        Arrell/Arroll (Harold)
        Boale (Boal)
        Deyermott (Diermott)

  105. Eileen Breen

    December 4, 2012 at 9:46 pm

    Richard Patrick McCunney: Ontario.

    Married to Bridget Kearney. Lots of photos and a family member’s diary of a trip to Ballybofey, Donegal. He was educated in Salamanca in Spain at Irish College. RCs were not allowed to be educated as a result of the Penal laws so children were sent out of the country. He was a teacher who started the Free Boys School in Philadelphia to educate RC Boys. He was naturalized on 25 Oct 1832. This seems kind of quick as it was usually a three-step process. He and his wife opened a girls’ dormitory for girls in their home. He was also a bookkeeper, accountant and clerk. He died without a will and his family had his will in probate. They disagreed at the low appraisal of three buildings he owned (valued at 68,000 total before probate), valued at half what they were worth. His daughter had to pay a $2,000 debt of his, 20 years after his death. A family member wrote a book about his life and there are several stories under his profile and photos. His portrait was painted by Thomas Scully. He was a member of St John the Evangelist Church. His wife was a niece of Col Anthony Gale and cousin of Sharp Delany b 1790. There might be a story about them? On one of the stories there is a book cited and a link: ‘Irish Relations: An Immigrant Tradition’ by Denis Clark.

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 5, 2012 at 8:52 am

      Great find and I will add this name to the waxwings. I really feel for the US visitors who appear to have been on something of a wild goose chase in Ballybofey. I think we could be doing them and others like them a great service after we have collated and analysed the findings of our waxwing search. Their arrival in Ballybofey must have been a real let-down for them as well as it is your archetypal one-horse town. I would like to invite the McCunnys onto our website so I will have to go back and read your instructions how to do that.

      A number of things trouble me about their Odyssey. They went to a great deal of bother and expense and came up with very little, other than a ragbag of theories that probably don’t hold water. I will put that to one side for now and make a few points as they relate to our search. They seem to have been fixed on the name McCunny and they made no reference to main records such as Griffiths Evaluation, Tithe Applotment and Flaxgrowers List that list no McCunnys in Ireland for that period. They did not consider, except through a chance remark that was made to them, that it might have been a corruption of some other name. Or perhaps not, which would be even more mysterious. Richard was well-educated and a man of the world, not a bit subservient. Why then would he allow a ship’s bursar to spell his name wrong? Nonetheless the US researchers pricked their ears up and dropped in on a man that had a similar sounding name – not McCanny, the more obvious choice, but McConaghey that was way out. And so the sorry saga went on.

      The long and short is that the McCunny search is an object lesson in the pitfalls that await casual family researchers and that is perhaps something we could address?

      • Eileen Breen

        December 5, 2012 at 1:04 pm

        Yes, I agree. BTW: When you put up the updated and alternative spellings for names yesterday under the old name we had no hints but when you changed the last name to McCanny that’s when the hints popped up. So great detective work! I felt bad for the person who was doing the research, he really had a run around. I haven’t finished updating from the new list but I’ll work on it tonight. If you want to write to the family click on one of the pictures and it will say who added the picture. Then click on that Ancestry address. I can see who the tree belongs to and let you know. I’m not sure how people find out as much as they do on Ancestry. My guess is that for this family, they went to a local library and found a historical book that listed biographies for his home town, the family scanned it and added it as a photo. Ancestry doesn’t always have the local histories so a trip to a local library room that has their town history, photos and city directories is probably a good way to find information.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 5, 2012 at 8:28 pm

        I have figured that if recruiters were based in either or both market towns, Strabane (Tyrone) and/or Letterkenny (Donegal):

        10 mile radius would have covered 50% of the waxwings
        15 mile radius covered 75% of the waxwings
        20 mi.e radius covered 100% of the waxwings

        I can cover 20 miles comfortably in 2 hours on a bike. I reckon the same time for someone in a carriage or on horseback way back then.

        I am going to have a fresh look at the Derry emigrants as our present lot have very little representation from there. It will not increase the overall numbers as I will ditch some of our present ones to make way.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 5, 2012 at 8:42 pm

        Derry Waxwings



        Thats it, there are no more. It brings the total numbers to:

        Derry 24 (29)
        Donegal 54 (49)
        Tyrone 36
        Unknown 40

        In brackets are revised numbers with new adjustment. Donegal waxwings to be dropped to make space are – John Woods, James Sproule, Eleanor Ryan, Peter Nelson, Nancy McShane.

  106. Eileen Breen

    December 4, 2012 at 10:25 am

    FFT: In 1860s: Another reason to move to the Frontier:

    Wages for a farmer in Ohio were $8.00 per month, while a farmer in Illinois made $12.00 per month. In mid-Atlantic States a worker would cost his employer $90.00 per year for health care, wages etc. while a slave would cost his employer $15.00 per year for the same expenses.

    I was thinking with the little snippets of info we have we could write an article about the trends for jobs, immigration to certain areas, wages, states where they immigrated to, prevalence of churches and prevalence of names in certain areas as well as neighborhoods where the Irish lived in Philadelphia. The map you put up with the neighborhood is great.

    The Kensington neighborhood is where all the mills, factories and jobs were. It was also a neighborhood where the Irish were. I saw an article that this neighborhood had the lowest amount of cholera in Philadelphia, the Northern Liberties neighborhood had the most. I didn’t get to check out this neighbohood yet. It would be interesting to compare these neighborhoods with the percentage of Irish in a neighborhood versus that of Cholera in each neighborhood.

    On the Ancestry homepage for each tree there is a database where we can plug in the last name and the state and we could see which states have certain last names. For ex: we are seeing a lot of Presbyterian, Rrotestant, Methodist and Episcopal records in PA, Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania. Also a lot of these folks emigrated from UK to Southern states before ending up in PA, OH, Ill, MO, TX.

    I saw an article a few years ago in an Ancestry magazine (back issues are on Ancestry) on how recruiters actively advertised for workers for steel mills etc. Mary Balentine was on the Israel in 1837 and on the ship manifest the passengers were grouped by occupation: mechanics, laborers, farmers and children. It looked like maybe they might have been recruited. I also saw a database on-line for all the mills in Philadelphia, maybe by looking at these we might find something?

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 4, 2012 at 11:02 am

      Loads of really good ideas there. I think this is where the faculties of intuition, empathy and lateral thinking can prove to be really powerful tools. Check out that Boston College site, Eileen, you’re ‘wasted’ as they say here.

      What you are talking about here is the US side of the equation. I also will start to look at that quite soon for the spreadsheet, picking up on your ideas as well as my own. I have finished looking at the Irish side other than completing the vignettes.

      BTW ‘wasted’ in NI means one of two things which have opposite meanings. One, being the one that was meant for you, means ‘full of unused potential’. The other meaning is ‘blind drunk’!

      • Eileen Breen

        December 4, 2012 at 2:30 pm

        Thanks, Don! I’ll check it out 🙂

  107. Don MacFarlane

    December 3, 2012 at 9:42 am

    So far, they only cover the bits of Irish stuff that is known about them so hopefully the profiles will fill out with detail as and when more comes to light. I am about half way through the names at present, another week should do it.

    I have decided to forget about including the Hairy Man story in ‘The Sea is Wide’ book. As soon as Mary has got a chapter ready on what we are doing here, and Liz Rushen has her Tasmanian chapter ready, I am going to push ahead for publication of that book. I feel that the US contribution will have completed the book as it was seriously imbalanced towards Australia and Canada.

    As far as what happens after, I see the Waxwings project as a long-term one that should not be skimped over, and I was not joking. Someone or more than one of the three of you should think about doing something with it, a book or a PhD project. Several of the contributors to the ‘Sea is Wide’ did their PhD on genealogy as mature students (Carol Glover and Christine Wright) but this project of ours has much more substance. Count me out, I won’t be doing another PhD so it is up for grabs but I would be happy to give total support. Any takers? If any of you has an alma mater they are bound to be interested. You could even get Bill Watson to supervise (shudder at the thought)!

    • londonderry

      December 3, 2012 at 7:45 pm

      Eileen, Mary and Don, I am most interested and amazed in your research, tenacity and commitment. I am not interested in working toward a PhD at this stage of my life albeit I am very interested in this cultural area and always open to helping as I am can. I view your “Duffy’s Cut” effort as a very professional and comprehensive work and I encourage you to continue. So I am in a mode to encourage, contribute and offer comments here and there. I think your interest in honest research, objective reporting and a desire to provide accurate portrayal is very attractive to me. I am a participant in this venture not trying to be an author.

  108. Eileen Breen

    December 3, 2012 at 2:43 am

    Archibald Ballantine, a farmer, immigrated from Tyrone. He was on the John Stamp. His teo sons were masons. There is a large family of his on-line. His sister Mary immigrated in July 1827 on the Israel. There is an interesting note on this manifest along the margin where they wrote: Farmers, mechanics, laborers and children. Mary’s husband William Pollock, also from Tyrone, was a farmer. He had an estate of $5000 at his death. I sent you all her obit (the best one I have ever read) and his will. The physician’s bill was for $1.25, Undertaker $22.00 and digging the grave $4.00. among other bills he owed. I’m still filling in all the information. They lived in Bradford, Chester, PA. One of his sons lived in Brandywine, Chester, PA. Several family members are researching this family. One of Archy’s sons had two children who died young, aged 9 and 12 years, not in the same year.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 3, 2012 at 2:46 am

      Mary Ballantine and husband William Pollock were Methodist. David Ballantine, Archy Ballantine’s son, was married in a Protestant Episcopal Church (maybe his wife’s family parish).

    • Eileen Breen

      December 4, 2012 at 2:00 am

      Archibald Ballantine Sr (John Stamp) had a son Archy: He was a mason. I can’t find him in PA. I saw entries for Canada? He also has a son John. I found a naturalization document and a passenger arrival from Liverpool to Philadelphia: J.J. Cooke and McCorkle line in 1850’s The natuaralization was 1854. I’m not sure if it’s him. I saw death/ church records for a few John Ballantine’s in Philadelphia, Pittsburg, PA. Then a census for East Bradford, Chester, PA where his father lived. I also saw connected to this tree the names: Campbell, Stewart, Aikin all from Chester, Co, PA. I saw the most records for Archy Sr. I’m not sure if there is a story here other than they came here and bought land. Some of the family they married into seem more interesting but not much of a story. Maybe time to move on.

    • Mary Cornell

      December 4, 2012 at 5:37 am

      Hi Eileen

      I am in awe of your Ancestry skills. I had a soft spot for Archy Ballantine. Both father and son were on the JS and both were named Archy. Just looking at the ages, could one of them have been Mary’s father? Both are in the 1840 Census for East Bradford. Could Mary have been living next door to her father and not her brother. I missed her age somewhere. What is strange, with your information on Archy, I went to findagrave and there I found pretty much the entire Balentine family in the Grove Methodist Cemetery, but none of the Pollocks, even though they were also buried in the same cemetery. I suppose this is just an example of finding all of the puzzle pieces. Of course they can never be in the same place.

      I found a William Barber who was living in Washington, Illinois for at least 20 years. He is an age match for our William Barber. I can’t find anything else so far. But, I am going to turn to our greatest resource. Eileen, do you think you can check and see if someone is researching William on Ancestry, also. I came up with zero.

      In this day and age, I hate to think how much such a beautiful obituary would cost today. The expenditures for Archy reminded me of the hospital bill for my mother when she gave birth to one of my brothers in 1962. Delivery and four day hospital stay, $98.00.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 4, 2012 at 8:37 am

        I second the comment about Eileen’s Ancestry skills. She seems to have a natural talent and she could soon take up a second career as a professional genealogist. I have been too persistent with this I am sure, to the point of being annoying, but I still think she should enrol at Boston College and take this further. That way she can consolidate even further her Celtic identity which is already very strong.

        No one seems to want to take up my challenge to take on a PhD, unless you will of course. BTW It was never my intention to undertake that doctorate during the last third of my career. I didn’t need it, it didn’t advance my career as I was already established and I did it purely and simply to improve my skills in a particular area. I got no financial or other assistance from my employer who are probably still oblivious.

        I embarked on a Postgrad Certificate, on top of my day job, for one year meaning to leave it at that. I did another year and that became a Diploma. I did another year and that became a Masters. My supervisor suggested I do a PhD. I dismissed that idea as nonsense but then the idea grew on me. My supervisor took a nervous breakdown and I have heard nothing from him since! I got a different supervisor in a different University who took the hump with me after she was told she had messed up with me and she would not attend my graduation! A different lecturer who took me briefly under his wing died unexpectedly and suddenly in his late 40s from a probable heart attack!

        So you see,and according to the Ulster saying, “what is for you won’t pass you”!

      • Eileen Breen

        December 4, 2012 at 8:55 am

        Hi Mary,

        Mary, Archy Sr’s sister, was married to William Pollock. Archy had three sons John b 1923, Archy and David. Mary died young,aged 51. The family tree has a lot on William Pollock who had the medical bill. I think we have his tombstone and hers. According to one of the censuses, Mary lived next to her brother. The family info said it was her father but the age wasn’t right for the father. I don’t think Archy Sr’s father (also named Archy or Archibald) came over, or at least I haven’t found it yet.

        Talking about the medical bill, I think your Mom got a good deal. I can’t imagine what they would pay today if it wasn’t for insurance! Before you talked about looking for patterns on the manifests. I was reading an ancestry magazine and the article said to look at who else is listed on the records such as witnesses, neighbors, etc. Maybe we’ll come up with something. I was also thinking of looking up the origins of the names, maybe that might give us a clue?

        BTW: If anyone wants to add to the trees or change anything, please feel free.

        The link about the Boston College program intrigues me. What would could I do with this degree? I appreciate you offering to be a mentor. I could expand my horizons!

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 4, 2012 at 9:14 am

        I have some familiarity with what is entailed in further education at mature student level. I supervised various Masters at the University of Ulster and also a Theology Masters (you couldn’t make this up!) at Cambridge. I also supervised as part of an exchange scheme a number of Masters students at Marywood University in Scranton PA. Two of the students I worked close with were Ed Sipler from Philly who did a Masters and Deb Wilson from New Jersey who did a PhD. Both are currently working in Northern Ireland and weirdly neither has Ulster ancestral roots.

        I must say the Boston College course does look very good, much better than comparable ones here. What I like about it is the way it is presented and described as a literature degree rather than an Irish Studies degree which otherwise would seem too narrowly focussed. Also it is a very nice mix of Arts and Science with a combo of literature and research methodology. I have to think it would teach any student a whole new array of skills that would adapt to any occupation, existing or new. I believe my own Masters and PhD fundamentally changed the way I did my work and made me much more analytical. I cant say what that degree would mean as regards self-advancement but it would most certainly enhance any personal prospectus or CV (curriculum vitae) as it is called in the UK.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 4, 2012 at 6:27 pm

        BTW: Mary and Vic this course is on line you can do it with me!

        OMG! I almost fell off the chair! What possessed you to supervise a theology masters student! 😉

        FFT: a few topics came to mind:
        Unusual relationships: We have a history of two first cousins marrying and needing special permission from the RC church. Also children on ship manifests accompanied by relatives and not their parents? We also have two brothers marrying two sisters.

        Another topic might be woman laborers on some of the ships. A large number of single women were on the ship and there were a large number of child laborers. The topic could shed a light on children and women’s rights in US at the turn of the century as well as servants. In one family they had servants.

        I also thought that a story could be about the role of the church and how it served the people in the community, not telling what they believed in, but their unusual and usual roles in the community. For example, Geneva College during the Civil War, and how it was used in the Underground Rail Road, weddings, funerals, social gatherings, Sunday School etc. Some of the obits, tombstones and death records.

        The role of the family: “supported each other financially, education – were tutors for their relatives’ children, supported their parents and orphaned children, worshipped together, worked together, witnessed legal documents, supported the same political party, joined the same fraternal lodges and migrated together.” From Family Chronicle magazine (Feb 2009). What Is Family? Genealogical Definition.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 4, 2012 at 9:21 am

        It occurred to me that then and probably still today crap doctors are the best friends of undertakers!

      • londonderry

        December 4, 2012 at 9:48 pm

        Eileen, I must have missed the link to the Boston College course. Would you send it to me please?

      • londonderry

        December 7, 2012 at 2:52 pm

        Eileen, I offer a perspective from another point of view. I am not going to argue against anything Don or Mary have offered previously.

        FYI, I spend lots of my time helping people get jobs. I’ve been doing it for four years now. I don’t charge and I have over 50 years of USAF and private business experience. I genuinely enjoy finding people’s talents then matching them to the right opportunity. I am finding lots of folks who are getting degrees in areas they think are fun or in areas where their counsellors provided bad advice. So my advice is, don’t pursue a degree for its own sake, work towards a job that you will enjoy and advances the ball for humanity. You can’t imagine how many people are getting degrees which are not marketable or in areas that don’t fit their talents or preferences. They are also miffed that with their degree they still have no future. My son dated a girl at Duke who got a degree in Art History. There must be at least five jobs in this country in this area.

        I don’t have a PhD but I have completed two masters and all the course work for a PhD. The USAF would not pay for the dissertation, which turned out to be a blessing in my later career. The PhD is a long commitment and it should lead you somewhere worthwhile. I have a friend who is a triathlete and who is married to an Olympic-class race-walker. Their entire life (time, $, food, etc.) is tied up in their own training. To my mind it is somewhat selfish. They have little time for other ventures in life. All I am saying is to launch into a PhD is a similar venture and should be taken only because it leads you to a place in life where you want to be.

        Now I am very interested in the work that you three have accomplished. I am amazed at the innovative work and research so far on Duffy. I don’t consider myself a genealogy expert but I am not inexperienced and I have been doing it for over 45 years. I am amazed at what you are finding on websites and pass them along to the group that I have founded here in Dayton.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 7, 2012 at 5:05 pm

        Vic, I liked your imagery of the azimuth, a term I had not heard of before. I have put an image of it at the top of the Archive page. I would prefer to put it at the top of the Duffy Page but the spreadsheet is already there. I think the imagery of the azimuth is very apt for the heart-searching Eileen is having to do currently.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 4, 2012 at 9:33 am

        William Barber:

        I saw a few trees on Ancestry with this name, nothing promising. Only one had the name with information and I can look more later today. One tree had a town identified for a William Barber but no Alexander was listed with him – the town was Newtonstewart in Tyrone. This family immigrated to Missouri, Michigan and New York. I wasn’t sure if there were a lot of Barber families in that town. There was also a 1850 census with a William Barber and family but no Alexander listed. The job was “Confectioner”. I think I saw other censuses with this occupation. Our William was a laborer on the John Stamp. I also saw a passport dated 16 July 1857 for a William Barber for Berks County, PA.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 4, 2012 at 1:58 pm

        Talking about soft spots, and I think we all have some and they all seem to be different, mine are:

        All ‘orphan’ juveniles – Sam Kyle, William Elliott, the Risks, Thomas Maguire, Ann Riddle.
        All ‘elderly’ – the Montgomery couple.
        Eliza McGhee – I think I’m in love with her!

  109. Eileen Breen

    December 2, 2012 at 2:32 am

    There is an interesting profile on Samuel Day’s son John who had a son George who married Hannah Mitchell (Jane Aikin’s daughter). George was a miller and an elder for the church. His grandfather Joseph (also another profile under his name) was an innkeeper, tavern owner and farmer. He left his sons two hundred acres of land in Jefferson County, Ohio. He was elected as a house appraiser in 1803 and 1805 election in Jefferson County, Ohio. The election was held in his home. Now we have elections in public buildings like schools and firehouses but back then, in small towns, elections were held in someone’s home.

    • Mary Cornell

      December 2, 2012 at 8:02 am

      Two more possible waxwings-

      The Philadelphia Directory 1833-

      William Barber Cordwainer
      J McAleer Fruiter

    • Don MacFarlane

      December 2, 2012 at 9:29 am

      I hope you like some of the vignettes that are on the new waxwing page on the website. I thought you might like to get your teeth sunk into the following as there looks to be some interesting back-stories to be discovered with them:

      James Ferguson
      Andrew Fergy
      John Ewing*
      William Elliott*
      William Diven*
      James Devaney*
      John Creighton*
      Sally Brisland
      Catherine Allison*

      The ones with asterisks are off the John Stamp and can be left for now as more info may very well come to light, except for Elliott as that story has enough going for it already to warrant a bit more digging. Perhaps you could stick Ferguson, Fergy, Allison, Elliott, Risk and McKendrick up on Ancestry to see if you can get a bite?

      • Eileen Breen

        December 2, 2012 at 1:19 pm

        All the names from the four ships are on Ancestry. I started with the John Stamp and the Prudence because they had laborers on them. The Ontario had only one laborer and the Asia had none. I can look at these names to see if there are any hints. I remember looking at these names and a lot of them had too many possibilities.

        Catherine Allison on someone’s tree was married to a John Doak but both were on the same ship. I think I tried to write to the family but I didn’t get a response. This family was in Canada.

        I tried to check out the Brislands but with no luck. Mary thought that going in order of how the ships came in might spark something, also to look at names that are the same. The ships came in the order: 14 May 1832, Ontario; 18 June 1832, Asia; 23 June 1832, John Stamp; and 19 July 1832, Prudence.

        Looking back:
        Donaghy: There was a woman on Ancestry named Anne Symes researching the name but it didn’t work out.
        Elliot: I found a few choices, one in Philadelphia and Lancaster plus a few other choices.
        Diven: Minnesota in 1870;1877 in Philadelphia; 1832 in New York Cty 1832 and near Gettysburg.
        John Brisland: 1840, Locust Ward, Philadelphia and a few other choices also.
        Fergy: I didn’t find anything for him.
        On the Asia there is a Hunter Ferguson. I didn’t see anything on James or Hunter Ferguson but I didn’t run the names together. I’ll check them out again.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 2, 2012 at 2:38 pm

        Thanks for that. There may be an element of waiting-game to be considered with Ancestry and as long as the names are on it that is as much as one can do for now.

        Putting a different kind of shape on the data other than just to have it on the spreadsheet and to have it in a text-based format might bring an extra benefit. We can wait and see. As far as I know, Google and other search-engines don’t pick up on spreadsheets. They are all geared to picking up keywords from text. Hopefully,for example, someone who punches in keywords such as ‘William Elliott AND Inishowen AND Donegal’ might be directed by Google to this site.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 2, 2012 at 10:59 pm

        FFT: If you want them directed here we could add a profile under “Mother”: John Stamp, Asia, Ontario, Prudence – one for each tree, so if they look for the family tree your address could appear and you could invite them?

      • Eileen Breen

        December 3, 2012 at 1:09 pm

        Usually, if you look at a person, say on one of the ships, you can look at the family trees. If you type in the name on the search bar on their tree then you can click on it and see if the information fits. If you have a question about that name you can look up on the right corner of their profile page – like mine says celticknot226 – and click on their Ancestry address. You can then write to them. If they want to reply you will see it on your ancestry email. You’ll see on your toolbar a box that looks like a letter, click on that to get your email. I save emails I like, then it’s easier to click on their ancestry profile and tree from there, especially if I’m a repeat customer looking at photos or information. I often look at the family tree search bar. I think it’s under “search” on the tool bar. Just type in a persons info and it will tell you who may have that name in their tree. Just click on that or if you see a photo you can also click on that. Also there are tutorials on how to use Ancestry. It’s on your Ancestry home page. That’s how I learned about it. They have a lot of articles and small videos on how to do something. Also there is an ancestry magazine on-line that’s free. I used to like this magazine but my local bookstore doesn’t carry it anymore. There are also a lot of genealogy magazines. I saw one from the UK.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 3, 2012 at 1:25 pm

        I forgot to answer you question!

        When we first put up each tree, in order to add the people I had to start with a “Parent”. Because all names are listed separately I put “Mother and Father John Stamp”, “Mother Asia”, “Mother Ontario” and “Mother Prudence”. When I set up my personal family tree I started with my parents. You can include a photo for the site. It will say “You are the first photo”. I was thinking if anyone was looking for these trees we could put the Entrylevelderry genweb address under the “mother” profile so maybe someone would see it. Also you can start a thread where you can ask a question and maybe you could refer them to your site. You can ask a question about an individual or put John Stamp, Prudence, Ontario or Asia as the topic. So when someone is looking under those names they will see your ancestry address. Then you can start a discussion with that person, then you could invite them to your site. As you say “Clear as mud?”

      • Eileen Breen

        December 3, 2012 at 1:31 pm

        On Ancestry, the Member Family Trees are under the “search” tab on the tool bar, the Learning tab on the tool bar has the tutorials etc..

      • Eileen Breen

        December 3, 2012 at 1:46 pm

        The thread is under Collaborate on the top tool bar. Also under the same tab scroll down to the “recent member connect activity” tab and you can see who is looking at the site. You probably can click on their ancestry ID from there and write to them.

        I was thinking about writing to the Ballantine family. The only pain about Ancestry’s email is that you can forward the emails to another member. If you want to try the email under ancestry you can practice sending me an email or Mary and Vic. We can send you an email back. Then go into your email and click onto the ‘my ancestry’ email address and you can see my profile and you can connect to the “family trees”: John Stamp Family Tree, Ontario family tree etc.. or my profile page from there.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 3, 2012 at 2:01 pm

        FFT: Under: Type in address bar: Ship John Stamp, Ship Ontario, Ship:Prudence, Ship: Asia. Then on top tool bar it says comments. Add the subject then text below. We could talk about our project, the ship and you can add your Entry Level Derry site link.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 4, 2012 at 8:24 am

        To tidy things up and to put to bed the annoying errors of transcription of the Transcribers’ Guild, I have gone through the manifests for one last time and offer the following corrections, confirmations and additions:

        Ontario May 1832

        Eilis Slaven
        Catherine Rodgers
        Richard McCanny
        John Bole
        Jane Devlin

        Asia June 1832
        Patrick McKeogh
        The Rea family
        Elizabeth McKnight
        The Rusk family
        James Nance
        Peter Diermott
        John Carland
        James McKenny
        Eliza McNamee
        William Hill
        Alice McSwine
        The Sterlings

        John Stamp
        Margaret Sherrard
        Michael Farren

        Prudence July 1832
        Richard Wier
        The Morrisons
        William Balentine
        Samuel Adams
        The Kernaghans
        Charles Breadin
        William Mitchell

      • Eileen Breen

        December 4, 2012 at 9:37 am

        Do you want me to change the last name on ancestry or just put alternate name then when we search we can look under both names? Can you please leave the above post up for a few days until we make the changes and look up the names. Thanks.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 4, 2012 at 9:50 am

        Perhaps if you put the corrected name in each case with the mispelt one as an alternative?

        For Ardstraw Parish, where Newtownstewart is, a Matthew Barber was listed on the Flaxgrowers List 1796 (that name only). Griffiths Evaluation (1848) has a Matthew and a John.

      • Eileen Breen

        December 4, 2012 at 9:44 am

        FFT: I saw a spelling of Sterling as Stirling. Was the Rusk family the Risk family? William Balentine on the Prudence could he be related to Archy Ballentine? Some of the family trees had the spelling Ballentine and Balentine? Is there any easy way to find duplicate last names on the ships, would the spread sheet list all the names from all the ships or just one ship at a time?

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 4, 2012 at 10:43 am

        I would say that Risk is actually Rusk (in which case the name can be narrowed down to Taughboyne) or possibly even Rush (in which case it can be narrowed down to Urney). Check the manifest and see what you think. Risk is in both those places and also in Fahan.

        Names I have found to appear in a different form were:

        Aiken (Eakin)
        Allison (Alleson)
        Barber (Barbour)
        Boal (Bole)
        Carlin (Carlan)
        Cook (Cooke)
        Davis (Davies)
        Deery (Dearey)
        Devany (Devaney)
        Diermott (Dermott)
        Doak (Doack or Doach)
        Donaghy (Donaghey)
        Fergy (Fergie or Fargg)
        Fullerton (Fullarton)
        Gibbons (Gibbens)
        Gilfillen (Gilfillan or Gilfilland)
        Greer (Grier)
        Griffen (Griffin)
        Harold (Harrold or Harrell or Arol)
        Kernahan (Kernaghan)
        Lecky (Leckey)
        Livingstone (Levingston)
        Leitch (Leech)
        Lemon (Leamon or Loman)
        McCrory (McRory)
        McGettigan (McGittigan)
        McGhee (McGee)
        McIlhenny (McIlheaney)
        McKenny (McKinny)
        McKendrick (McRondneck)
        McSwine (McLaven)
        McMenamin (McMenamen)
        McPhilemy (McPhelimy)
        Nelson (Nielson)
        Nicholl (Nickle)
        Patchell (Patchill or Putetill)
        Riddell (Riddle)
        Ritchie (Richey)
        Scallan (Scallin)
        Shields (Sheil)
        Skilton (incorrect)
        Sproule (Sproul)
        Stirling (Sterling)
        Weir (Wier)
        Wylie (Wiley)

        Who is to say in each case which is right and which is wrong as conventions have changed as well as there being transcription errors. Names that would appear to us to be mispelt have appeared in that form or even more bowdlerised in the original Planter documents.

  110. Eileen Breen

    November 30, 2012 at 11:55 pm

    Hannah Forsythe Aiken:

    Someone on Ancestry states her mother may have the last name Jackson. This came from John Calvin Aikin, a descendant. I found a few Aikin photos on Ancestry and I put them on our site. Hannah Forsythe, according to the family history, may be related to President Andrew Jackson. The site, The Hermitage, is named after Andrew Jackson’s estate in Tennessee. I can’t find her name listed in his ancestry. Jackson had two siblings that died in childhood. He never had children, he married his first wife before she was divorced and he adopted his wife’s nephew. He had a Indian child who was found on the battlefield, who was taken to live with them and who was educated by them. Only one of his adopted children had children so descendants with the name Jackson are limited. He had over three hundred slaves and two of them were named Hannah Jackson. The Hermitage site is interesting and shows the mansion, grounds, slave names and slave quarters. The only connection to Philadelphia is Andrew Jackson’s adopted son, Andrew, who was his wife’s nephew (Andrew Jr’s wife was from Philadelphia). Andrew Jackson Sr’s wife also had extended family and there are two photos on the Hermitage site of Hannah Jackson, the slave. I wrote to the Hermitage Museum to see if they know anything more.

    • Eileen Breen

      December 1, 2012 at 3:02 am

      Hannah and James Aikin’s grandson, Knox, lived on a 160 acre farm in Colorado. There’s a great photo of the farm on their grandson’s (Knox M. Aikin) profile page. A family history (Obit) relates that they left Colorado and traveled in a covered wagon for two months to go to Midfield, TX. He was a farmer and a school teacher and his wife was a Sunday school teacher. I can’t find if Knox owned the land in Colorado or TX yet or if James Rowland Aikin owned his farm in Ohio. I thought James owned a farm in Beaver but I can’t find it, only that they moved to Ohio and bought the farm according to family history. His son John married and stayed in Philadelphia at that time but later went to Ohio.

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 1, 2012 at 9:15 am

        Waxwing Commentaries

        I have started cataloguing the names on a separate DuffyTemp page with a brief summary of the limited information that is known yet about them. That might be easier to follow than the spreadsheet. I have also changed my avatar to a rather Presbyterian-looking waxwing as I was starting to get fed up looking at my ugly mug! With its very direct stare, wearing its identity or its plumage in a way it could not be missed, fiercely guarding its find of berries, how could it be anything other than Presbyterian!

      • Mary Cornell

        December 1, 2012 at 7:06 pm

        With this latest list of waxwings, I have been going through the partial 1831 trade occupations list (cities only) found on Jane Lyons site, and only two appeared. The name Elder appeared twice in Carndonagh, Donegal. One was a tobacconist and the other was a grocer. The name McGettigan was found once in Letterkenney. This particular McGettigan was a victualler (tavernkeeper?). There were several names from the passenger lists that occur, but outside of the parameters that we have been using. Is it worthwhile to look further names for others on the list? It does show a partial listing of surnames in selected cities that match names on the passenger lists, though not waxwings.

        The site also has what appears to be the entire Lewis Topographical Dictionary. The extremely detailed descriptions might help to narrow down certain locations.

        BTW LOL Only Don can imagine a bird being Presbyterian!

      • Don MacFarlane

        December 1, 2012 at 8:45 pm

        I’m not familiar with the Lyons site but I do have business owners highlighted in the spreadsheet in the Slaters column. I count 23 of those names and from the right localities had businesses, though more than likely not the waxwing families, otherwise why emigrate?

        My reason for looking at businesses was to figure who could, if only by association perhaps with more successful relatives, have managed to make a living other than from hard toil or from the land. Also, who could have managed to put enough funds aside ahead of the voyage to give a cushion or slushfund once at their destination. Likewise, the same kind of reasoning would apply to identifying landowners with the same surnames.

        On the other hand, the Flaxowner Lists would identify the poorer people who needed subsidies to purchase their flax, spinning wheels or looms. Someone on the landowner list should not be on the Flaxowner List by that reckoning. I think I have found the Flaxowner Lists to be particularly useful, albeit it is 1796 and therefore refers possibly to parents rather than the waxwings themselves. As far as I understand Griffiths, that list may not necessarily cover sub-tenants, and the Flaxowner lists can pick up on that blind spot. Almost all of the waxwing surnames are on the Flaxowner lists.

        BTW I am absolutely gobsmacked (Ulster word for bedazzled) with the material that Eileen has been uncovering in Ancestry. She seems to be a wizard at it and it goes well over my head. I take back the mealy-mouthed remarks I made earlier about Ancestry, obviously it is a treasure trove. I think any contacts that Eileen makes through Ancestry could be invited to post comments on this website if they so wish?

  111. Eileen Breen

    November 30, 2012 at 8:30 pm

    We just received a note on Ancestry from Ellen Stinson and Thomas McQuillin’s grand daughter, Marge. She gave me her email address and her cousin Liz who is from the McQuillin/Diamond side of the family (I got most of their family history from Liz and Marge). Marge says she was a member of St Anne’s parish in Philadelphia where Philip Duffy is buried and she was aware of the Duffy’s Cut story. She didn’t add anything new to the mix but extended her hand out if we need any information or if we would like to write to them for information. I sent a thank you note back.

    The Stinsons were not on the ships but their son Thomas came in 1830 and Roseanne was on the ship in 1832. As stated before, the Stinsons were first cousins to the McQuillins. Ellen Stinson and Thomas McQuillin’s sons were all in the Civil War for the Union side and their history is on Ancestry on our site. I don’t know if we would get another story out of this that we haven’t covered already but it seems the Civil war keeps coming up as a theme. We just need to reinvent it with a variation on a theme or move on? Their tree is pretty extensive, the sons were all successful in the war and the subsequent family seems to be doing well.

  112. Eileen Breen

    November 30, 2012 at 4:59 am

    Aikins family, Bellfontaine, Logan, Ohio:

    Bellfontaine, Ohio in 1846 had 610 residents, four churches, one newspaper and eleven stores. The population boomed in the late 1800s to 4,238 residents because of two rail road lines. By 1886 they had three newspapers, eleven churches and two banks. The largest employer, a chair manufacturing company, had sixty four employees. It is known for having the shortest street in the US and the first concrete paved street – McKinley Street – in the US. By 1840 the last group of Native Americans were removed from their lands in Ohio.

    In 1861 when the Civil war broke out most Ohioans were in favor of unification but the Copperheads were Peace democrats who opposed reuniting the nation. Many residents of Ohio came from Southern slave-owning states and emigrated to Ohio in the early 1800s but they had relatives still in the southern states on the Confederate side. They were afraid that President Lincoln would free slaves who would come to Ohio and take their jobs away from them. They agreed with the Southern view that if a state voluntarily joined the war effort they could leave the Union at will. They opposed the war when in 1863 President Lincoln signed The Enrollment Act forcing Ohio men to be conscripted to fight for the Union cause. They didn’t want to leave their families unsupervised while they were serving in the war. Over 260 regiments from Ohio were involved in the Civil war a d Generals Grant, McClellan and Sherman were all from Ohio.

    Railroads and steam boats brought people into the interior at a rapid rate and men on the Frontier in Ohio worked the land. Often they had crops as well as livestock in case the crops failed and the livestock could be falled back on. A farmer could clear one acre of wilderness in one week but most farmers could not keep up with this pace and life on the Frontier was back-breaking work. Families had to not only clear the land but also build their log cabin homes. Further, they had to protect their family from Native Americans defending the loss of their territory, as well as from wildlife such as bears and wolves that preyedd upon their livestock. Once the farm was cleared and established, it was five years before the farm would turn a profit. The Aikin family cleared eighty acres of forest for their farm.

    Women on the Frontier in Ohio were involved in child rearing, farming, making supplies for the family, making cloth and sewing clothing for the family. When the husband died she often stayed on the farm with assistance from her sons. Often the woman left an urban area to move into the wilderness. She experienced hardship working on the family farm, she was isolated and she had to leave her possessions behind. As the wilderness was modernized into towns, the woman in the community became involved in the Temperance Association, Abolition Movement and Prison Reform Movement.

    Geneva College where the Aikin grandchildren attended was founded by the Reformed Presbyterian Church in Northwood, Ohio. The students of this college were called engineers in the Underground Railroad. They were sympathetic northerners who assisted runaway slaves from southern states by providing shelter. Often a slave didn’t get their freedom by entering a free state and a slave owner could reclaim his slaves. The Presbyterians in the early 1800s were the largest denomination and the Civil war divided its members. By war’s end the Presbyterian church was reunited.

    In Ohio, politics was fiercely debated with all parties represented. In early nineteenth century the feud between the Federalist Party and the Democrat-Republican Party delayed statehood. The working agricultural class favored the democratic party while the middle-to-upper class was in the Republican Party. President Lincoln was from the Whig Party that pushed for Ohio to become industrialized. By the mid-nineteenth century Republicans demanded to limit slavery while Democrats opposed a strong federal government. The Whig Party dissolved and it was accused of being a member of the Native American Party known as the Know-Nothings. It was most influential in the native-born Protestant community in the 1850s. The Know-Nothings supported the idea that newcomers were unwelcome.

    The South was dependent on slave labor for it’s livelihood but the North had its solution to cheap labor – five million European immigrants who came to America between 1815 – 1860. The majority of the immigrants from Ireland who fled during the Great Famine were seen by the Know-Nothings as ‘unfunded, uneducated and,to American eyes, uncouth’. Further their platform in the 1856 election was ‘sending back all foreign paupers’. President Lincoln stated “I am not a Know-Nothing. That is certain. How could I be? How can anyone who abhors the oppression of negroes be in favor of degrading classes of white people? As a nation, we began by declaring that all men are created equal. When the Know-Nothings get in control, it will read all men are created equal except Negroes, and Foreigners and Catholics”.

    In 1854 President Lincoln signed the Kansas – Nebraska Act where states on the Frontier, not the federal government, could decide for themselves if they wanted slavery. The frontier states were bitterly divided and there was loss of life. Lincoln advocated for prevention of the spread of slavery into the Frontier and he pleaded with Americans to abolish slavery but he refused to blame Southern states for it.

    • Mary Cornell

      November 30, 2012 at 6:46 pm

      More questions than answers. To the question of how the Aikens were able to afford land also goes back to how were they able to afford passage for such a large family to sail together. I doubt that children of twelve and under went for free.

      Moving into the west and the wilderness was a dangerous proposal for the immigrants. Dying was a very real possibility, whether it was from illness or Native American discontent over their presence. I do not think that their deaths would have been recorded except in family journals and on tombstones. I also do not picture the census-taker travelling into the wilderness to record a family for the census. Lumber camps would also not likely be visited by the census taker. This is also not taking into account the many fur trappers etc who traveled the waterways. So what we have is a substantial portion of the population who were not counted during the censuses.

      • Vic Barnett

        December 1, 2012 at 1:23 pm

        As I write, I am listening to the History Channel on how the “spirits industry” was initiated by the Scotch-Irish. How they moved after the Rev War to areas around Pittsburg and the Whiskey Rebellion resulted. This resulted in a Government push for taxes which was just the opposite of what the Ulster Scots loved….freedom. They moved to parts south, especially Kentucky, and it further goes on to tell how to make a ‘thump barrel’, along with how to prevent the “puke problem” in the still, and on and on. I am amazed at how the Scotch Irish get almost unanimous credit for moonshine, country music, marijuana and NASCAR to name a few.

        One of Don’s degrees, if I recall, is cultural identity. The things most remembered about the Ulster-Scots are not the common denominators that I associate with them as an Ulster Scot, even though I like a strong whiskey, the uniqueness of a good country song (I’m thinking ‘All my X’es are from Texas’), never tried drugs and I like hard-fought football and to some extent car racing.

        My azimuth in this diatribe is that these folk have often been mis-described and the common denominators are at a much more general level. For example, we are not just talking about just Presbyterian; we found many Baptists and Methodists churches in Northern Ireland. Bill and Hillary loved to come to NI to get Protestant funds. I forget which, but one of the middle counties has a Bill Clinton museum. We are putting people in categories that really were best described more broadly as being alive, risk takers, inspired in different endeavors, had a dislike/mistrust of power and driven by sometimes worthy ventures like the principles of freedom in our constitution and,regrettably, some who selfishly held slaves in their own self interests.

        With all the breadth and depth of your research, I don’t think this story has been told except for a few such as Senator Webb. I encourage you to consider the possibility of a book that more accurately captures these broader cultural descriptors.

  113. Londonderry

    November 29, 2012 at 11:08 pm

    Regarding the move to Ohio, the settlers came to find land. After the Revolutionary War, the Congress granted land to soldiers. Virginia as we know it today was pretty much taken, especially the land worth anything for farming. Virginia in the colonial days didn’t look like it does now; it included Kentucky and some of Ohio. If you draw a line, the area south of the Wheeling line to the Ohio River was considered Virginia. So the Continental Congress gave parcels of land in what is now Kentucky and South Ohio to soldiers and their widows.

    On another but related note, Daniel Boone was a teamster in the Battle of Fort Pitt before the Revolutionary War and had explored regions in Kentucky and in this South Ohio area. My point is that he likely shared his knowledge of this land with soldiers that he rubbed shoulders with in the war. So he lit the flame of exploring and moving to better land in the soldiers and their descendents. The South Ohio land was also very much Shawnee Indian, including Tecumseh, so there were many fights and battles after the Revolutionary War. These Indians continued to try to hold their homeland forcibly, moving westward until they lost the Battle of Fallen Timbers in Indiana/Ohio.

    So in summary,in the pre-Revolutionary War timeframe we saw nuclear families in regions like PA moving down the Shenandoah Valley southward, then after the Revolutinary War the vectors turned westward to the benefit of the whites, but to the detriment of the Indians. East Ohio is very poor land until you get to east of Columbus in the middle of the state. In that region, you start to find moraine-plowed land rich for farming and settling. Some settlers stayed in areas around Zanesville, of Zane Grey fame, like my wife’s Border Riever family but it was very poor land and only good for timber or ceramics.

    My long answer to your short question is to say that the land offered opportunities in the 1800s and the push continued into the mid-western states like Illinois and Iowa. The Ohio population radically expanded in this period and it was made the 17th state in 1803 as a part of the NW Ordinance.

    • Don MacFarlane

      November 29, 2012 at 11:54 pm

      I’m wondering what the Aikins did for four years in PA before they made the move for Ohio. Where they just accumulating capital, getting orientated and figuring what to do next, having found that PA did not meet their expectations and needs? BTW the distance from Philly to mid-Ohio is about the the same as the length of Ireland? Not tnat insurmountable, except I guess there were no proper roads and by then the railroad was only about half-finished.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 30, 2012 at 5:18 am

        They lived in Philadelphia for one year then moved to Beaver County PA and bought an eighty acre farm. They stayed there for four years then moved to Ohio and bought a farm. Pittsburg is in Beaver County and there is a large Presbyterian community there. After the church was established in Philadelphia with four synods they spread to Pittsburg, PA. I saw a hint on Ancestry under James Rowland Aikin that there is an Aikin family from Antrim but not with the same first names as this family. The townland was Ballyclan, Killead, Antrim. The head of the family was George Aikin. He was a farmer. I didn’t see this name listed with our group but I was wondering if this could be our Ballyhallan – Ballyhalion (Donegal) or Ballyclan, Antrim?

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 30, 2012 at 8:13 am

        This is the problem with emigrants off the ship Ontario. Their county of origin is not recorded and what we have instead is erroneous townlands such as Ballhall and Prossgear (Rossgeir). There was also an Aiken family from a Ballyhall in County Down so there will often be a ‘take your pick’ possibility and there were over a hundred Aikin households in Ulster at the time. As Vic says, a scientific approach requires a conclusion to be both ‘refutable and verifiable’ – seek to prove it wrong rather than to prove it right he says. If it cannot be proven wrong and all other possibilities are discounted the conclusion must be right. That is the general idea but it is rarely perfectly achievable and tnat is why statistics was invented.

        The Ohio Aikins puzzle me still and thanks for your very enlightening account of the Frontier development and the major part that Lincoln and other Ohioans had to play in that. Why leave a well-established eighty acre farm in PA for eighty acres of back-breaking wilderness in Ohio and the hazards of Indians and bears to contend with as well? Also, how did they acquire eighty acres of good farm in PA when they had no land in Ireland and they were presumably not wealthy on leaving Ireland?

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 30, 2012 at 8:47 am

        Another thing that bothers me and I can say this as a lapsed Presbyterian. Presbyterians, and probably various others, ‘planted’ Ulster, and that of course means displanted, robbed or displaced native Irish, often and necessarily with considerable force. If you look at photos of their weapons of ‘defence’ such as snapchances, halberts and pikes it would make you shudder.

        Then we have the account on the American Frontier, including Ohio, of the self-same Presbyterians being very squeamish about the rights and freedoms of negroes (who have already been displaced from their homelands in Africa generations before). All this time, however, they are not the slightest bit bothered about the rights of native American Indians to be left alone in their territory and to be unmolested?

        If I were a modern-day so-called red Indian I would be full of hatred and I am sure very few of them would have been fans of the cowboy movies that all young boys in my time would have thrived on. It all smacks of the same hypocrisy that was apparent in John Mitchel, Derryman and advocate for repeal of the penal laws in Ireland, who sacrificed his three sons in the American Civil War in the cause of slavery.

        BTW Why go all the way to Africa to find slaves when it would surely have made better sense to turn red Indians into slaves or to nip over the border and capture Mexicans as slaves? Which makes the modern day patrols on the Mexican border to keep people out all the weirder.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 30, 2012 at 9:43 am

        Back to Business!

        Names from the spreadsheet that are truly waxwings are:

        Catherine Allison – Donegal (Leck)
        Archibald (Archy) Ballantine (Balentine) – Tyrone (Bodoney)
        William Barber**- Tyrone (Ardstraw), accompanied by younger brother (11). McElroy 1839
        Andrew Deery (Deary) – Tyrone (Leckpatrick)
        John Doak (Doack)* – Donegal (Taughboyne), accompanied by 19 year old sister. McElroy 1839
        Alexander Elder – Donegal (Templemore)
        Connell Harrold (Harrell) – Donegal (Donaghmore)
        Samuel Hay – Tyrone (Urney)
        Samuel Kyle – Donegal (Tully)
        Hugh Livingstone (Levingston)*- Tyrone
        John McAleer – Tyrone. McElroy 1839
        Margaret McAnaney – Tyrone (Ardstraw), spinster on Stamp
        Daniel McCahill**- Donegal (Donegal Town)
        Eleanor McGettigan – Donegal (Clonleigh), spinster on Stamp
        Francis McGlashan – Tyrone, unaccompanied ‘juvenile’, tho’ 17.
        Patchills (Patchell)- Donegal (Conwal)

        I will concentrate on these ones for the next while as they are clearer cases to look at. Unlike the Aikens, their county of origin is stated on the ship’s manifest; unlike various other names, these names are clearly decipherable; and also their names are most distinctive and peculiar to Ulster, so they would not have come from a further away location such as Leitrim or be more dispersed.

        Those asterisked once were weavers on the Stamp; asterisked twice were labourers. As they were invariably on the Flaxgrowers Bounty List and not on the Landowners List, a reasonable assumption can be made that they were all scraping by and were not in a position to buy acres of land in the US. A secondary assumption is that they lived within striking distance of Philadelphia, or in it, rather than further afield unless they had earlier family connections in the US whom they could meet up with.

        Just as a reminder, part of the point of searching for these names is to challenge the Watsons over the names they have decided to put up on the West Chester memorial. If we cannot consistently and with relative ease trace the waxwings we would be entitled to ask what magic formulae they were using in tracing the Duffys Cut deceased. As an extension of that agenda, we are checking if any of the Duffys Cut folk came off the other ships from Derry that Summer other than the John Stamp. Also, we are looking at whether there were any peculiar and particular forces at play that Summer to account for the exodus from Ireland in 1832. Finally, we are doing a service to all family researchers that are looking for isolated cases, whereas our bigger numbers can paint a bigger picture about impasses, pitfalls, stonewalls, wrong turnings etc. etc. that we unearth.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 30, 2012 at 3:35 pm

        The Chieftains did an album about England forcing the Irish into conscription and going to Mexico where they fought against the Mexicans for their territory. England in their battle to be an Imperial power wanted Mexico for themselves. The Irish and the Mexicans were Catholics so this didn’t sit well with them and many Irish refused to fight the Mexicans, much to the chagrin of the English. There is a memorial and museum dedicated to the Irish and Mexicans who came together. I met an American man who works in Mexico and he said there are a lot of expats living in Mexico.

  114. Londonderry

    November 29, 2012 at 4:04 pm

    Sounds to me that my folks were smarter than I thought. I do wonder about the influence of the clergy on certain classes, especially in the Lowlands. It’s interesting in history how hardship has been the catalyst for great things in art, science, politics etc. I’m thinking Russian music, Isaac Newton, Andrew Carnegie, French political thinking, American frontier, etc. I believe the most vulnerable time in companies/organizations is when they are riding high and there is no need to find improvements. The most potentially beneficial times are when the companies have their backs to the wall and improvements are essential to survival. In many ways the Ulster-Scot migration was a good example of the “human bounce-back” from hardship.

    • maccarleo

      November 29, 2012 at 9:55 pm

      My computer has been having issues with WordPress all morning so I apologize if this has posted before.

      All of the female passengers on the Ontario manifest are listed as spinster but Hannah is probably James’s wife.

      I think what we are looking at in the summer of 1832 is the second phase of a recruiting effort in Ulster. The first phase was a lone male going to the States for work. After he is settled, the rest of the family joins him. If he is not in Philadelphia, they would travel out of Philadelphia to some unknown place. The family may have had to save for the trip or waited for money to be sent before they could leave. This may explain why the travels seem so haphazard to our eye. The third phase may be word of mouth that caused others to emigrate. We may also have to consider that the recruiting effort spread a wider net than we originally thought.

      BTW. About aeroplanes?! Were the Wright brothers of Scottish descent? No offense, but neither Don nor Vic look like rough footballers! Okay, maybe in your younger days 🙂

      • Eileen Breen

        November 30, 2012 at 12:47 am

        Vic, I could use help with Ohio and the Civil War. Is it the cae that Ohio did not go into the Civil War until 1863? A lot of records show enlistment starting 1 July 1863. Also, from the map is Preble, Ohio any way near Rush Creek, Logan, Ohio? I found Civil war records for four of Jane Aiken and Robert Brown’s children in Union, Ohio and I found records in Preble but I think they are on opposite ends of the state?

        Hannah Forsythe and Robert Aiken’s daughter, Jane Aiken, married Robert Brown. They had six children, five boys and one girl. Robert Brown was a farmer in 1850 and they lived in Rush Creek, Logan Ohio. The value of the property was $1500.00. Thirteen years passed between the firs child and the last. In 1880 Jane Aikin Brown and her husband Robert lived in Bellfontaine, Logan, Ohio. with their youngest son, John, who was listed as a comonal Traveler? There is a photo on line of the Brown family tombstone, and two smaller ones for Jane and Robert. The Brown tombstone is large.

        Robert is listed by the family as coming from Belfast,Ireland. The family listed Ballymena, County Antrim as the birthplace for Jane but the ship manifest has Ballyhallan, Donegal. A family member has their marriage as being in 1834 in Philadelphia, PA but I can’t find it. There is a map of their land in Union Township, Ohio in 1875 in Logan County Ohio.

        There was a woman, Mary Ann Brown, who had land near the family, perhaps she was related. James, David and William are listed as registering for the draft for the Civil War on the Union side on 1st July 1863 in Union, Logan, Ohio. I can’t find Robert H. their brother in the Union, Ohio draft. The name is popular and is listed in various places including Preble, Ohio and Pennsylvania. With the McQuillin family they signed up in their home state but they were in regiments in neighboring states so I’m not sure if this is the case with him. Probably all five sons were drafted on the same day and I’m still looking for draft records for the youngest son, John.

        Robert H. Brown did well for himself in Ohio as a farmer. He married Jennie Miltenberger whose family was in insurance. In 1880 the Miltenberger family and Robert H. and his family lived in Bellfontaine, Logan, Ohio. The Miltenberger family’s estate was $5,000 and his estate was $1300. He became an Insurance A.F. and they had five children, of whom three may have have died at an early age. There are no first names for the first three (they are in the families profile page but I didn’t see them listed on any other census records. The other two are listed as Wallace and Mary J.

        In 1900 Robert H. and his family, his mother-in-law (now widowed) and youngest brother, John Brown (widowed), and his children moved to Detroit, Michigan whete Robert H. became a cigar manufacturer. There were two servants with them in this census, a cook/housemaid and a coachman. His brother lived next door and his mother-in-law lived with them. In the next census they were back in Bellfontaine, Ohio.

      • Vic Barnett

        November 30, 2012 at 1:42 pm

        Eileen, I have done some research on your question of when was it that Ohio entered the war and I submit the following without proof. While it is easy to determine when Southern states entered the war, or seceded, like my state, Louisiana, in 1861, there is no such date for the states that never left the Union. Ohio was made a state in 1803 and they were always a part of the war.

        There were very many famous generals and politicians from Ohio, e.g. Generals Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, Custer, Rosecrans, Buel and Crook; and politicians Stanton, Hayes (general and President) and Chase. My wife and I just saw the movie “Lincoln” which y’all must see, and I can hear Abe saying now , “that lineup of people is not too shabby.” The problem he had, and it gets to the heart of your question, was the organization. Lincoln controlled the regular army and navy; he did not control the county and city units that came under the control of the Governor. You’ll recall that at Gettysburg Lincoln had the problem of the Pa Governor calling home his Pa units to protect the state.

        My wife’s ancestral town of Zanesville raised seven local units for the war. I picture the westward movement into Ohio and parts west as a continual push for land that was workable. BTW, I had a year at the Army War College in Carlisle Barracks PA and I travelled most of the state. If you consider PA as a rectangle sitting on its long side, the best land is in the Quaker Southeast, west of Philly to Harrisburg, not even a quarter of the state. Other than that very rich part, which was quickly taken in the pre-Rev War era, the rest of the state is rolling hills and mountains with only a valley here and there that is producible. The rest of the state is good for mining, oil, a pasture here and there, and timber. It’s no wonder that farmers landing in Philly or Delaware quickly flooded the Ohio valley when the Indians were pushed further west.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 30, 2012 at 7:48 pm

        I think the 1 July 1863 dates I saw were about the Enrolment Act Lincoln signed that forced Ohioans conscription. Ohioans from PA originally had Southern roots, Southern sympathies and relatives from the South were not too keen with them being forced to sign up for the Northern side. When the Kansas-Nebraska Act passed, frontier states had the right to choose whether they wanted slavery. Ohio, Nebraska and Kansas were divided on the issue. Many of them had Southern ties and being land owners they had an interest to see that slavery spread to the Frontier. The Presbyterians also were on both sides of the issue and soon the Frontier was involved in the Civil War.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 30, 2012 at 7:59 pm

        Vic, was right. Ohio was involved in the Civil War early on and over 260 regiments from Ohio were entrenched. 6,479 Ohioans paid a military fine to the federal government to escape military duty or they aid someone else to go to war for them which was legal but was not viewed in a positive light. 5,092 African American soldiers served in ‘colored troops’ for the Union side and enlisted from all Union states. 11,237 Ohioans died in battle and another 13,354 died from disease. 84 out ofevery thousand Ohio men died in the Civil war and 44 out of every 1000 Ohioans deserted. Ohio had the lowest desertion rate.

  115. Don MacFarlane

    November 29, 2012 at 7:32 am

    And also quite a few groups of children with only one parent with them, though often there is what appears to be a maiden aunt. The Aikens are one example of this and Hannah 48, spinster, must have had her hands full, although six older nieces from 16 upwards probably played their part. It is mind-boggling why the patriarch of the family, John Senior (a widower at this point), would have upped sticks for the unknown at the age of 60 with such a large and very young family in tow, the youngest being six months old. Reckless or crazy?

    There is no record of anyone by the name of Aiken owning land in Donegal around that period. Aitken,yes, but not Aiken

    Likewise, on the same ship there is a McQuigg who also claims to be a farmer from the mysterious Ballyhall but there is no record of a landowner (meaning anything above an acre) of that name either. As mentioned in an earlier post by Mary I think there is a Ballyhallan (Ballyhallion normally) in Donegal, just outside Clonmany, but it is entirely in the wrong peninsula in Donegal from where the Aikens and Forsythes were to be found.

    It all begs the question then – how does a late middle-aged widower of modest means and a large young family go from being a sub-tenant of land (if that is what he was) to being owner of a large spread in Ohio. How does he hear about it, does he carry the means of purchase with him, who did the land belong to before and was it already a homestead? More questions than answers. It also raises the question of what was going on in the Summer of 1832 that drew these semi-literate Irish folk like a moth to a flame? Did any or few of them bother to stop off at Philly at all or was that just a portal of entry? As Vic says, they are cold cases and as such it is about means, motive and opportunity. I don’t feel we have much of a handle on any of that yet and therein lies the clues.

    Although Hanna is listed as a spinster on the manifest, could that be a mistake and was she actually the wife? If so, and if Hanna Forsyth(e)was from Donegal, that narrows it down considerably. Forsyths were only to be found in Raymoghy Parish; Forsythes were only in Taughboyne, Leck and Clondahorky. The odd one out amongst those is Clondahorky (modern-day Creeslough/Dunfanaghy area), the others are clustered together in a wedge at the start of Lough Swilly butting on to Letterkenny.

    Aikens on the other hand were only to be found in Aughnish and Killygarvan. Either of those would fit as they are on the road out of Letterkenny, in a different direction it’s true – East, rather than North or South. So from all of that, it would appear that this Ballyhall(an) is in Laggan region of Donegal adjoining Letterkenny, not outside Buncrana which would otherwise be the case.

  116. Mary Cornell

    November 29, 2012 at 6:02 am

    As to the idea of a PhD dissertation out of all of this, the first paragraph would say simply ‘here you go’, the last paragraph would say ‘there you go.’ And in between would be all of our posts over the past few months. The title would simply be “The Perils and Pitfalls of Genealogical Research.”

    Okay, back to being serious. Vic, you are right on target as to what all of this entails, which is constant detective work. Too many researchers fall into the habit of disregarding information because it does not ‘fit’, rather than do the work to disprove what they think is incorrect. Those in your genealogy group who think that the history gets in the way of the work are missing so much of the picture. For my money, they are the ones who will come to all the wrong conclusions in the end.

    I found the following article a while ago and kept meaning to post it, but had actually forgotten about it until now. I was not sure how to take it. The first half is the usual discussion of the Watsons’ work, but the latter half of the article is odd at best. What I take away from it is that whatever happened at Duffy’s Cut was brought on by the men themselves. “Rough behavior provokes rough behavior.” I found it odd because it was written by an MD, George R. Fisher. It comes off sounding ignorant and prejudicial toward the immigrants. He echoes the British mindset. Your takes, please.

    • Don MacFarlane

      November 29, 2012 at 7:02 am

      Curious. Dr Fisher is described as a Philadelphia physician who served his community for sixty years, which makes him almost ninety when he was writing this stuff. I suppose at that age one will rant on a bit. Stop me if I go that way!

      The homepage is

      The essay, if it can be called that, makes a reference to Prof Watson feeling that there was a modern-day conspiracy to shut him up. BTW I was amused at the description of the Scots-Irish being known for bagpipe-playing, rough football, country music and flying aeroplanes. I didn’t know Vic played the bagpipes!

      • Londonderry

        November 29, 2012 at 10:34 am

        Well there is some truth to that I suppose. As to bagpipes…no. When I was researching on my family tree, I remember a quote from one of the books, maybe “Albion’s Seed” that ‘the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment never made it to Scotland’. Recall the Romans never invaded Scotland. The Lowlanders were heavily influenced by the Presbyterian clergy who basically said to their flocks, “if you need to know it, you’ll hear it from me”. I have always been bemused that the Scots while wild and wooly often were wildly successful with great determination and resilience. My reading doesn’t show them to be instigators of the Revolution, as I think Eileen implied a few days ago, but they were in the backwoods only wanting to be left alone. Only when their freedom was provoked were they players and players they were.

        I am very fascinated by the double envelopment of Lt. Col. Bannister Carlton at Cowpens by Daniel Morgan, an Ulster Scot. This is still studied at West Point as the perfect example of soldiering in the war. Essentially Morgan used the militia, read Ulster Scots who were poor soldiers, to fire two shots then run to the rear (which they probably would have done anyway). This was viewed by the British as a retreat and they attacked only to be almost wiped out by the uniformed colonial soldiers.

        I also believe that the early Ulster-Scots, say in the 1600s and 1700s, may have been a little different than the folks you are researching on Duffy’s Cut, albeit moulded by many of the same forces as their forefathers. I also find the Scotch Highlanders and Ltowlanders to be two different lots, maybe like the North and the South in every country and state usually are different.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 29, 2012 at 2:22 pm

        The only quibble I would have with what you have said here is that the ‘Scottish Enlightenment’ was held up as a beacon of political philosophy by much of Europe, notably by Voltaire and through him by Catherine the Great of Russia. Not that it did her much good as she turned out to become a despot and she and Voltaire parted ways.

        Francis Hutcheson was the Father of the Scottish Enlightenment but he was Ulster-Scots from Saintfield in County Down. How his movement came to be known as Scottish was because he was Professor of Theology and Philosophy at Glasgow University. He was much admired by Adam Smith, David Hume and other famous Scottish philosophers of the day. Hutcheson’s name is little known today but he was a bigger figure than Smith during his lifetime.

        His best known edict is ‘that action is best which procures the greatest happiness for the greatest number’ and that became the cornerstone of the Utilitarianism Movement espoused by Jeremy Bentham and others. Hutcheson is thought to have had great influence in the drafting of the American Declaration of Independence and his other edict was ‘wisdom is pursuing the best ends by the best means’ which became the basis of Management Science and Decision Theory.

  117. Eileen Breen

    November 29, 2012 at 1:53 am

    From the Ontario, James Rowland Aikin was a farmer from Ballyhallan, Donegal, Ireland. Together with his wife Hannah Forsythe and their children they lived in Philadelphia for a year then moved to Beaver County, PA. They were a Presbyterian family and they bought an eighty acre farm in McArthur township, OH. His son James, who supported his parents until their death, married twice and he had a total of eight children. James Junior’s second wife Catherine McKinley was also from Donegal and her parents together with eleven children had come from Donegal to Philadelphia a few years after the Akin family immigration. Her father owned an eighty acre farm in Ohio.

    The five children of James Jr. and Catherine all graduated from Geneva College and a daughter Maria “Mary” Akin married a Dr Kennedy and they lived in NYC. From James Jr’s first marriage to Maria Irwin there were three children. His wife died in her early 50’s and a daughter died at seven years of age. He married his second wife Catherine McKinley in the same year. The families’ biographies are chronicled in the ‘Families of McArthur Township, Ohio’.

    • Eileen Breen

      November 29, 2012 at 8:32 pm

      Maybe Ballyhallan is Ballyhallion as you said? This was from Ancestry- Families Of McArthur Township, Ohio. If you look at the profile for Catherine McKinley or her husband James Aikin Jr (see story). I can email the story to you all. Under Catherine McKinley’s father the story talked about that he and his sons cleared the wilderness to farm in Ohio. This is another story to disprove the Watson’s theory all the Irish were poor. I bet they sold the farm in Donegal to buy the farm in Ohio. They bought it after only living in US for 4 years. His eldest son was still a teenager so all the funding must have been on James Aikin Sr.

  118. Eileen Breen

    November 26, 2012 at 1:29 am

    Points To Ponder:

    I just received a note from John Gillen from New York (Johgil on Ancestry). He wrote to us about James McClay and Rebecca Stewart in his family tree.

    “I noticed that the James McClay and Rebecca Stewart on the passenger list are both identified as being from Letterkenny. There were two clusters of McClays in County Donegal. One large one in Southern Donegal centered around Laghy and a smaller one in N. Donegal around letterkenny. So I am wondering if the James and Rebecca are the ones who married in Laghy the following year. On the other hand, multiple Atlantic crossings were less frequent in the family than one might expect from people of limited financial resources.”

    “My own grandmother made a crossing multiple times when she was working as a servant during the first two decades of the twentieth th century before she married in Boston. Her brother’s wife, Maggie June McClay, lived in Massachusetts for six years. She took her three children and returned to Ireland while her husband remained in Massachusetts and worked as a chauffeur. In 1914 when they returned WWI broke out. Several of the McClay and R. Stewart children travelled back and forth between Donegal and the US. Good luck with your research.”

    I put up some of his tree on ancestry but there are more records that I saw for Massachusetts that I wasn’t sure about until I saw his letter. I’m not sure if this is our man so what do you think? Perhaps the marriage record might not belong to this family but his tree might, especially if they are from Letterkenny. The name Rebecca Stewart was very popular when I tried to search for her. Also McClay is also a popular name. I also think that travelling back and forth was not for most people but if you were a servant you would travel with the family at their expense.

    John’s grandmother may have traveled as a servant when she was single. Even if this is not our family it could be an interesting story about working as a servant. There was a good article on line about servants in early Philadelphia from the late 1700s to the late 1820s. It sort of reminds me of Downton Abbey which is all the rage here in US!

    • Don MacFarlane

      November 26, 2012 at 9:25 am

      Clan McClay

      There appears to be a DNA project on the McClays but it would be of perhaps little interest to your Mr Gillen as these types of project only follow the paternal line. It does list quite nicely however the whereabouts of the McClays in Donegal which was much as he says.

      You can send Mr. Gillen the earlier link and he shoud be able to find in there his ancestor and a whole heap of relatives, both in Ireland and the US:

      There was something that niggled me about McClay/Stewart. The supposition was that they must not have been as poor if they were able to return to Ireland after a year. Three things:

      There has always been the idea about that emigrants sent a portion of what they earned back to help less their more hard-pressed and less well-off relatives back in Ireland. But why? Square that up against the favour the emigrant has done by agreeing simply to be part of the ‘safety-valve’ of emigration, taking pressure off the family of one less mouth to feed. Why then the extra obligation of financial relief for those left behind when the younger ones can take the same emigration route as well? If that obligation was there, it seems enormously selfish of the stay-behinds who sit tight and wait for the hand-outs to keep them above the subsistence line.

      Which brings me to the second point. What was the income-differential between the US and Ireland at that time. It might perhaps take a year’s savings to travel to the US but much less than that to travel back again? Or it might not take anything like that long. The average wage for a handloom weaver in England was five-to-seven shillings a week and you can be sure someone Irish was at the bottom end of that scale or worse. The weekly wage in 1830 for a millworker in the US was €5 and that was equivalent then to £1

      Therefore a weaver could expect from that to earn about three times as much by emigrating to the US. Likewise a non-farm labourer could expect to earn twice as much as a farm labourer if prepared to rough it and have poor rations. Hence the attraction of the railroad.

      The cost of a Transatlantic passage had dropped the year before (1831) to a quarter of what it had been to one pound ten shillings, in other words six weeks’ wages if in Ireland, or two weeks’s wages if in the US. What then was to hinder any but the most poor to make the return passage? A different story of course for women who earned a third as much as men and needed board and lodgings as they could not be expected to live rough.

      The third point is that the McClays are not listed as having even an acre of land in Ireland, so in fact it looks like they were dirt-poor but they were able to make their way back.

      BTW. I mean to post a nice map of the districts of Philadelphia as an aid to discover where were the poorer and more outlying parts that were still or soon to be part of the city – the equivalent of zipcodes today. That may help to refine any searches.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 26, 2012 at 2:58 pm

        Snippets from Stanley Lebergott 1960

        ‘In 1833 fifty per cent of employees in cotton mills were children’

        ‘Women walked barefoot to the meeting house to save their shoes, putting them on only when entering’

        ‘Wages (in kind) for slaves were half that for free labor but on adding out-of-pocket expenses the difference later became six-fold’

        ‘Beginning with the panic of 1837, in New York alone twenty thousand workers had been discharged by their employers’.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 26, 2012 at 5:56 pm

        Wards of Philadelphia 1839

        Penn Township
        Vine – Mulberry N&S, Arch, Market, Chestnut, Walnut, Spruce, Cedar, Locust

        Northern Liberties
        Street – Delaware (Upper and Lower), Pine, Mulberry, New Market, High, Sassafras


        Spring Garden




        * Irish Ghettos

        Of course, with at least a good half of our waxwing emigrants being Scotch-Irish (Ulster-Scots) and not of ‘native Irish’ stock, would they have been well-advised to keep away from Irish ghettos or would they have had much choice? ‘Out of the frying pan into the fire’ springs to mind!

        If going further inland, the main destinations for Uster-Scots in PA were Lancaster, Delaware and Susquehanna counties.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 26, 2012 at 8:09 pm

        The McQuillins settled in Kensington and there’s a photo from the family on Ancestry under one of the McQuillin sons of this neighborhood. In the article on servants in early Philadelphia it said the Irish lived in the lower Wards. Also in the articles on cholera it stated the poor were located in the lower Wards and did not have access to clean water like the wealthy in the upper Wards who got their water from a fresh water source.

        If we decide to do a story about the McClays three things come to mind: Plantation of Ulster, being in service and making the crossing being not just for the rich.

        FFT: Facts On The Plantation: Protestant English and Scots from the Church Of Ireland were invited by the English to live on three-quarters of the confiscated land in Ulster located in Northern Ireland. British landlords received the best interest rates and purchased 2,000, 1500 and 1000 acres. They were expected to build a castle and wall off their land. The walls were to be built by those who had the smallest parcels of land. The Scottish and English were to settle on the cleared lands that were once owned by the Irish. During the fifteen years of the Plantation it had limited success.

        The social and economic climate in England and Scotland caused the Protestants to move to Ulster. During the Plantation forty thousand Protestants were in Ulster; by the end of the seventeenth century a hundred thousand Scots and twenty thousand English were established in Ulster.

        The Gaelic Chiefs saw a swift economic change in the way they earned their living – from a bartering system to a money-based economy. Landlords in the new money-based system learned that food given to a landlord in lieu of rent could be exported, thus a profit could be made. Landlords soon realized they could make more profits by not just renting their homes on the land but renting to large-scale sheep farms.

        Rack-renting tenants became profitable and clans that once enjoyed long term thirty year leases that were handed down from father to son saw rents sky rocket. At the end of the thirty year term, families could no longer afford to stay on the land were evicted and cleared off the land they had been on for centuries. Lament for their lost way of life has been emotionally documented in Irish literature and music for six centuries. Most notably the song “Danny Boy” which depicts the last King of Ireland of the O’Cahan Clan being removed from his land and who was killed in Dublin Castle.

        Duing the last decade of the 17th century into the 18th century, Ulster Scots who were descendents of the Scottish Presbyterians and who had left Lowland Scotland to settle in Northern Ireland in Ulster intermarried with English and Plantar families. Any attempt at the English who tried to isolate, harass and persecute the Presbyterians was made more difficult by the intermarriages. In 1684 the Presbyterian churches were forcibly closed. In America the first Presbyterian church was established in Pennsylvania.

        Ulster-Scots also started the first newspapers in America and were noted to be part of the Revolutionary war, if not responsible for starting the American Revolution. Ulster Scots were dominant in the creation and fighting for freedom in America. Seven Scottish men from ulster were signers of the Declaration Of Independence and multiple Presidents of the United states claim Ulster Scot ancestry.

        Economically, Ulster-Scots saw drought and an economic depression caused by England as major factors causing them to emigrate to Pennsylvania. England imposed trade restrictions on Ireland’s wool industry which was her largest export. England stipulated that Ireland could only sell its product to England and Wales which caused a depression in the Ulster economy. The Irish depended on the wool industry and when that was no longer viable they decided to emigrate. 250,000 Protestant and their families left Ulster between 1717 and 1775 and immigrated to Pennsylvania. In Later years they migrated to the cheaper, fertile farmlands in the southern states.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 26, 2012 at 8:14 pm

        The McQuillin family has a photo of the 1844 sectarian riot and the family’s church, St Michael’s RC church, that was noted in your article was burned.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 27, 2012 at 7:46 pm

        50 Miles Further Out

        For when I have exhausted Philly as the place to locate our waxwings and I have to start looking further out with the use of a Distance Calculator.

        Also, I have come across a Find-a-Grave website which may sometimes be of help.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 27, 2012 at 11:24 pm

        The Kensington neighborhood where the McQuillins lived seems to be right off the Delaware River where the Port Of Philadelphia was. It was probably easy to hop off the boat and find housing in this neighborhood. I have used Find a Grave before. A lot of people take photos of gravestones. I liked the idea of Rebecca and Seth saving the day! When spreading out I think we could look at larger concentrations of Presbyterian churches. From Philadelphia, Presbyterians went to S. Carolina, Ohio, Minnesota and Illinois.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 28, 2012 at 6:11 am

        Sometimes, by retracing the footsteps of these emigrants, I can feel that we are making the same journey as them, only for us it is in our imaginations. Part of that is that the first flush of excitement has worn off.

        For now and for easy reference, I have pasted the most useful sources at the bottom of each page of the spreadsheet and I will just plug away until the spreadsheet is complete. That is not visible yet as I will post no further versions of the spreadsheet till I am satisfied with it. There is only one way to do this and that is method and hard graft. I am getting on with completing the spreadsheet and there is a good way to go yet with the picture building up all the time.

        I haven’t forgotten my business with the Watsons!

        To relieve the tedium, feel free to use FTT for random thoughts and for flashes of inspiration.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 28, 2012 at 12:55 pm

        I’m ready to move on to the Prudence. I’m not finding anymore with the John Stamp except I’m skeptical about who the Watson’s identified. Many of them were not just lone laborers. They traveled with the family. So why no one put an ad in the paper to look for them unless they too are buried with them. Not all their companions were laborers. In the case of the Burns family-mother, father and the child were all at Duffy’s Cut. So maybe there were multiple tents for each family not just the one cabin that was found.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 28, 2012 at 3:45 pm

        Yes, I smell a rat too. My gut tells me, and I may well be wrong, that there are connections between the different ships. It needs to be put to the test, otherwise it is just as much a speculation as that of the Watsons. The different composition of the ships – some had family groups, some didn’t, some had siblings on board, some didn’t, some waxwing names pop up in different ships etc.- makes me wonder did some of the families of labourers follow on behind. It is no more than a suspicion that eg. some advance recruiting went on and some parishes were targeted. Once I have finished the spreadsheet and perhaps done some basic statistics the picture may become clearer.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 29, 2012 at 7:42 am

        Just so. John Long, presumably at the Cut according to the Watsons, travelled with two sisters – Jane and Sarah. William Mahon came as part of a family that included his parents, both about 60, and two teenage sisters. Patrick Fullerton travelled with three brothers. William Barber travelled with his eleven year old brother. William Diven travelled with his spinster sister aged 20 and a child aged one. Are they all in the Watsons’ roster and, if not, what does that do to their arithmetic? My thoughts are that Duffy snapped up the young fit men of whatever trade, labourer or not, including groups of brothers. Whether that makes up the numbers, I don’t know, I haven’t looked at that yet.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 28, 2012 at 5:14 pm

        My thoughts exactly. In this case, we have the added advantage of it not just being one ‘cold case’ but many so it is more like hunting down a serial killer. According to the Watsons, that is exactly what we are dealing with.

        BTW If your folks came from Scotland they would have come from the Lowlands, not from the Highlands. If memory serves, you thought the Barnetts were a branch of the Livingstones. If so, there were two tribes of Livingstone, one from around the Firth of Forth west of Edinburgh. The other tribe were an offshoot of that first one that ended up in Argyllshire and they had their ancestral home on the island of Lismore. Most of these later took the mongrelised or Gaelic form of the name, McClay or McClea.

        Like the Beatons, to whom I am related, the McCleas became famous as hereditary physicians. Hence they were not expected to fight, just patch people up from the battlefield. There is a DNA project for all those of Clan MacLea aka Livingstone and they may welcome Barnetts also for all I know? Another account says that Barnetts were just a variation of Burnetts which were never a clan in their own right but who had an honourable pedigree, though Saxon or Norman, nonetheless. Yet others say Barnett was a sept of Clan MacAllister and in that case definitely of Highland origin. Take your pick?

    • Eileen Breen

      November 26, 2012 at 2:26 pm

      I forgot a sentence from the letter. John didn’t think the two McClay clans, one from Letterkenny and the one fron Laghy, spoke to each other. This is why he doubted if our Letterkenny McClays were his Laghy McClays.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 26, 2012 at 3:06 pm

        Planters Unplanted

        I would say they are the same McClays, even if not within a generation or two, as the name is so unusual, much like the Patchells and Snodgrasses – back to the waxwing theme again. The Snodgrasses for example we not Johnny-come-latelys, they were among the first Scottish planters in Donegal as they appeared in the 1630 Muster Rolls.

        Other waxwings from that Muster Rolls were: Lecky, Buchanan, Campbell, Gilillan, Cooke, McCauley, McKenny, McConnell, Cochrane, Aiken, Greer, Crawford, Leman, Noble, Woods, Ballantine (Archy actually!), Allison, Ewing, Barber, Johnston, Reid, Nelson, Ellis, Griffen, McClay, McAleer, Edgar, Davis, Henderson, Keys, McNutt, Leitch, Foster, Barr, Hunter, Griffith, Peoples, Russell, Stevenson, McIlwaine, Speer, McAdam, Caldwell, Creighton, Elliott, Magee, McIlwaine, Ritchie, Long, Sproule, Livingstone, Wylie, Nicholl and Hood.

        In other words, at least half of our folks were Planters?

    • Eileen Breen

      November 26, 2012 at 8:42 pm

      There is a large family tree on the internet when I typed in Stewarts in Ulster. They were one of the first families involved in the Plantation in the 1600s. They were invited by the King of England to live in Ulster. One group from Sir William Stewart’s family settled on over three hundred acres in Donegal. There are pictures of the castle and his estate. Don’t know if our Rebecca Stewart is one of them. There is also a large group that went to Pennsylvania as they were Presbyterian. They also settled in Ohio in the 1700s

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 26, 2012 at 9:57 pm

        I think it unlikely these particular Stewarts were people of wealth or property. The name was very prevalent in Donegal but there were none down by Ballyshannon where the McClays came from. That is to say, if the McClays were from Ballyshannon but the family tree seems to very definitely place them in Laghy, despite the ship manifest recording McClay as being from Letterkenny. There were only two or three wealthy families by the name of Stewart, roughly a tenth of the total number of households of that name in Donegal at that time. Oddly, one of these Stewarts did indeed have a sizeable acreage of land just outside Letterkenny, or as Mary would say, ‘hmmm ….’.

        I doubt whether they shared the same religion, judging by the names that these particular Stewarts favoured. Rebekkah and Seth were names taken from the Bible and they probably represent a particular world-view that the family had. I will leave you to figure out what I mean by that – that is your conundrum for today! In short, if there was a class as well as a religious barrier, that seems to be a little too much to cross. Meanwhile, here is an essay that may help with the conundrum that I have set following on from the naming of Rebekkah and Seth.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 27, 2012 at 7:14 am

        Donegal, a Latter Day Zimbabwe?

        County Donegal Protestant Association 1925

        ‘The Protestants in Donegal are by race, religion and sentiment different to the remainder of the population. They own eight tenths of all the land and pay nine tenths of all the rates. They therefore should carry weight over and above their minority electorate base and should not be swamped by the votes of their labourers and hirelings’.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 27, 2012 at 10:45 am

        I have since discovered some more about the Stewarts and a strong connection with Tullyaughnish in Ramelton in Donegal where Rebecca Stewart was listed. There are also a number of other waxwing names from that same parish so I will have to backtrack and check some more.

        An earlier Seth Stewart was listed for Bouchen in Raphoe which is on the opposite shore of Lough Swilly, with Letterkenny being at the top end of that lough. It is conceivable there was a younger Seth and with it being such an unusual name he may have been cousin to Rebecca. That would also fit with both declaring themselves to be from Letterkenny, not quite right but near enough.

        In sum, we may have had the wrong McClay/Stewart connection all along (perhaps not) and the ship’s manifest might be close enough when locating the couple in Letterkenny. A bit more spadework is necessary.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 27, 2012 at 2:35 pm

        I suppose it all boils down to whether there are one, or two, or more McClay/Stewart marriages in Donegal from that time period, with the added coincidence of a couple of that name having emigrated to the US on the ship Ontario. From that, the additional queries are to do with what was their purpose in emigrating, did they return after a year and if so, why? Here is a picture I can conjure up in my mind which may be, more likely is, completely fanciful.

        James and Rebecca, whether from outside Ballyshannon or Letterkenny, belonged to the same or a compatible Protestant church. In other words they were of a closed (eg Brethren or Quaker) or evangelical (eg Presbyterian) Protestant sect, a bit like Mormons today. Evangelical Protestants were known to have settled in PA from Ulster since about the mid 1700s and these two were fed up being surrounded by Catholics.

        Why do I say evangelical? Because of their biblical first names which signify the beliefs of their extended family that they were of a ‘chosen people’. Seth was the younger brother of Cain and Abel who saved the human race from iniquity. Rebecca, wife of Isaac, did likewise by advancing her righteous but younger son, Jacob, ahead of the wicked brother, Esau, as patriarch of the House of Israel. In other words the original Rebekkah and Seth both saved the world from eternal damnation, or so the Bible says!

        Having arrived in Philly, this latter-day Rebecca and Seth found the place to be in their eyes a hotbed of iniquity, full of native Irish gangs and bootleggers and the likes. Before too long they decided they had had enough – ‘better the Devil you know etc’ – and they returned home, with James in tow who may not have had much of a say in it.

      • Mary Cornell

        November 28, 2012 at 6:55 am

        Probably not the last word on McClay/Stewart– I have been patiently sitting back waiting for one of you to discount the the one piece of information that ties this couple together as one and the same, but being that has not happened and until it does happen, I maintain that James and Rebecca from the Ontario and James and Rebecca married in Donegal are one and the same. There is an exact age match for BOTH. Had it been just one, the odds were even as to whether we were right or wrong about the connection, but having both match, exponentially raises the odds, coupled with the find of a large landholding Stewart family near Letterkenney. I do have to agree with the theory expressed earlier about ‘the devil you know.’ as to why they would return to Donegal. And further evidence of some amount of wealth is the survival of the entire family during the Famine.

        On the other side of the Atlantic – Philadelphia – the only strange thing that I have found is that Alex Barber appears regularly in McElroy, but I cannot seem to find him anywhere else including the census.

        I did not find findagrave to be particularly useful. I ran 100% of the names through and if there is a match, there usually isn’t any more information than the name and the cemetery where they were buried. I was particularly disappointed that the women were not able to be found even with the option of using their maiden name in the search.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 28, 2012 at 9:40 pm

        There were several Rebecca Stewarts who came after this Rebecca Stewart. We should probably rule out her being the one in Philadelphia and who she belongs to as I’m still not convinced that James McClay and Rebecca Stewart are a couple. I still feel that James moved into the frontier and married in another state rather than move back home. Not that it’s not possible and twenty per cent of the people did move back home but to me it seems like a slim possibility. I think we should move on to other ships and come back to this later. There is a Livingstone on another ship, maybe we’ll find a connection to James and Rebecca.

  119. Eileen Breen

    November 26, 2012 at 12:21 am

    FFT: Families from the John Stamp:

    Burns: Both Catherine and John both are on the memorial.
    Diven: Elizabeth, John and William are all on the memorial.
    Doherty: Samuel and Michael travelled together but only Samuel is on the memorial. McIllheaney: Bernard and Biddy travelled together but only Bernard is on the memorial.

  120. Don MacFarlane

    November 25, 2012 at 8:11 am

    I think I’m starting to get the hang of Ancestry now!

    James Barr from the ship Prudence.

    There is one of that name, a tobacconist, in the McElroy Directory in 96 W High. He is also in the 1840 Federal Census but the demographics of the household don’t fit. There is only one adult male living with a woman perhaps ten years younger and there are no children. Therefore, unless our Thomas has upped sticks, abandoned his wife and family, and taken up with a new woman, this is not our Thomas.

    From this example, it is possible to pin down exactly from a combination of McElroy and the 1840 Federal Census which of our emigrants are alive and well in Philadelphia in 1840. I will get on with completing this sheet of the spreadsheet, enter the findings in the Comments column and move on from there.

    Of course there are the usual frustrations with Ancestry that if one wishes to broaden the search beyond Philly, Ancestry doesn’t do what it purports to do. Even if you refine the search by entering additional filters such as child called Jane and of Irish nationality it doesn’t make a button of a difference. In other words, Ancestry is a donkey, it leaves most of the work to you!

    • Don MacFarlane

      November 25, 2012 at 9:36 am

      Chain Migration

      Taking another name at random as a tester, I come across the Snodgrass family. Ancestry throws up the following:

      Asia (1828) from Derry – Samuel (26), William (25), Mary (20) and William (1)
      Asia (1830) from Derry – Peggy (20)
      Robert Ker (1836) from Derry – Eliza (20), James (20)
      Carouge (1837) from Derry – John (22), Joseph (20) and Mary (18)
      Solon (1844) from Derry – Margaret (46), Elias (18)
      Warren Hastings (1844) from Derry – Eliza and Thomas (ages not recorded)
      Delta (1849) from Derry – Catherine (17)
      Creole (1849) from Derry – Martha (18)
      Provincialist (1851) – Jane (21)
      Superior (1853) from Derry – Robert (20) and Mary Anne (18)
      Superior (1856) from Derry – Rebecca (20)
      Zered (1858) from Derry – John (22)

      That makes a total of 21 Snodgrasses emigrated from Derry to PA over a thirty year period, most of them in their late teens or early 20s. There is a story there to be told.Ŷ

    • Eileen Breen

      November 25, 2012 at 3:03 pm

      The mystery of the Earl of Leitrim had a lot of twists and turns! Someone should make it into a movie again.

      For UTUBE video I just typed in UTUBE then Duffy’s Cut then Then look down: 2nd video: Duffy’s Cut: Reburial Of Irish Rail Road Workers of 1832. At the end you can pause on the sign they made for the the memorial.

      On Ancestry you can have to look at the records to see what it contains or putting all the flters in won’t make any difference. My irritation is ancestry doesn’t remember the filters so you have to put them in over and over again. I tried to look up the Mahon’s yesterday but I didn’t see anything.

  121. Eileen Breen

    November 24, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    At Lazaretta Quarantine Station the ship’s captain would ring a bell if people aboard the ship were suspected to be ill. The doctor would row out on the Delaware river and inspect the people. If they were sick a flag with the letter Q would mark the ship as being in quarantine. They tried not to bring people ashore unless it was medically necessary. People were often treated on the ships on the river. If someone was sick they might be taken to the quarantine station or the hospital. Doctors and nurses stayed near the hospital. There are no records from the hospital or quarantine station. There is not a separate database for Lazaretto, just the ship manifests.

    • Eileen Breen

      November 24, 2012 at 6:33 pm

      From your link about Lazaretta there is a book written by a ships doctor from 1890’s who would go out to the ships. It’s title Under The Yellow Flag. It’s on line (first 33 pages). It doesn’t mention our 4 ships but it might be interesting to you. The doctor would put up a yellow flag with a black letter Q for Quarantine. The book said all the ships were not inspected Probably only 1 doctor to inspect many ships. Maybe that’s how Cholera or other diseases like Yellow Fever got through.

      FFT: I strted w/ the John Stamp and put a number by the last name to indicate a possible family grouping. The one’s w/ numbers are the one’s i looked at. The 1st 17 last names up to letter J. I’m finding many choices. Also not able to find the family listed together except (see below):. I looked at census records, city directories and family trees. I think Philadelphia being a large city our names are very popular. Even when looking up men’s names in the civil war I’m coming up w/ a lot of choices.

      Names we found: Family #1: Catharine Allison married to John Doak in New Brunswick, Canada. Family tree has them in it.(Not sure if it’s them). Family #8: Mary Campbell Shaw, Samuel Shaw and son James A. Shaw: see family tree we have their family history in a biography of Cass Cty, Ill and a tree on ancestry. Family#11: Adam (John) Diamond and sister Roseanna Diamond McQuillin Civil war story, lg family tree on ancestry.

  122. Mary Cornell

    November 24, 2012 at 7:36 am

    McElroy 1837

    John Stamp
    William Devine weaver
    Robert Skelton labourer
    *James Devamy weaver

    Thomas Skelton weaver
    Miss Eliza Magee
    Robert Ewing (2) dry goods, merchant
    Johnson Stevenson weaver
    James Snodgrass labourer
    John Culbertson labourer
    Alexander Barber cordwainer
    John Doak cab mr
    *John Doke car mr
    Peter Campbell weaver

    *different spelling than manifest

    • Don MacFarlane

      November 24, 2012 at 9:18 am

      So far, I have about fifty possibles from McElroy that match for name and possible occupation, listed on the spreadsheet. I had spotted Eliza Magee (McGhee) but I hadn’t put her in yet as I was doubtful about her. I like that the first name fits but I thought that if she was so fussy to have an h put into her name on the manifest, would she have tolerated such a complete mispelling in McElroy? Also, I had noticed that McElroy seem to go for uniformity of spelling, almost as if they had a protocol that they kept to. Rarely, you would find a name that was the same as a whole host of others but was spelt differently. Is it likely that Eliza would insist on McGhee in Derry but Magee in Philadelphia? Likewise, I didn’t have Peter Campbell as a waxwing as the name is quite commonplace. I will put them both into the spreadsheet anyway.

      Eileen’s suggestion that we widen the search reminds me of what my PhD supervisor, Dorota Iwaniec from Krakow in Poland, used to reiterate. It was with her almost a mantra, but she was preaching to the converted. ‘Follow the data’. I am a believer in that approach. Any other approach is counter-scientific, will not bring new knowledge, and is just rehashing what is already known. Of course such a searchlight approach has to be grounded in existing knowledge or it has no established basis or credibility. The two approaches have to meet in the middle.

      Of course, in our case the data is mostly corrupted as it is badly recorded through sloppy and bad transcription. The errors perpetuate in subsequent records such as Ancestry and this is where our project can be of value for unwary family researchers who have to find these things out the hard way. I thought the Irish scenario was bad with all the BDM and census records being lost in the 1922 fire. This is worse. At least with the Irish situation you know where you stand.

      I have some ideas already on the back of the data so far but I will leave those for a later post. This is where an intuitive approach to data would come in, although my radar is malfunctioning at the moment, and Mary calls these ‘aha moments’. If germs of ideas can consolidate and hang together to form a bigger idea which can be tested in a formal way, better still. Statistics might be useful, perhaps not, and that is one of the reasons for a spreadsheet to see if any patterns will emerge.

      I think the next stage would be to take those fifty names from the two McElroy directories (1837/43) and see if they come up on the Federal Census for 1841. I can’t think of any earthly reason why they wouldn’t. Plus, out of those, focus on waxwings that appear on the Duffy headstone – James Devaney, William Devine, George Doherty (Dougherty), Robert Skilton – and challenge the Watsons over why they think they were murdered.

      • Mary Cornell

        November 24, 2012 at 7:12 pm

        In this earlier time period, spelling was not of major importance. Names were often spelled differently as to the whim of the moment or the education level of the writer. It did not seem to bother or matter until later on when consistent spelling of a name became important for civil and government interaction. This is where intuition on the part of the researcher comes in, with apologies to your PhD supervisor. The list I posted was not to be intended to be definitive. It is simply an exercise in finding the names on the John Stamp and if, with further research, they are the right people, so much the better.

        Now for the intuition part – I included Miss Eliza Magee solely on intuition. It is the presence of the word ‘Miss’. It reflects back to the feeling you had for her about the spelling of her name. As for Peter Campbell – after looking for the labourers, I decided to go through the entire list of names on the JS and see what could be found. Weavers seemed to be turning up fairly regularly. The reason for the inclusion of Peter is his first name. Peter, along with Michael, is one of the more uncommon names of the era. And his occupation being the same as the listed occupation on the manifest, makes his probability high on the list. Alexander Barber was placed as a find because he seems to be William Barber’s brother.

        I did find it strange that the name Doherty did not appear. It will make it very difficult to find these men if the name changed to Dougherty.

        Following the data only works when you have the data and in so much of this, there isn’t any data. Our intuitions seem to serving us well, though.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 24, 2012 at 8:24 pm

        I mean to try to get a better handle on how literate or otherwise that ordinary folk were in that era in Ireland. All of these folks were of similar background, from similar locations and mostly of one religion. Yet some are able to ensure their names are spelt correctly, others not. None of them were from purely or mostly Gaelic-speaking areas so they should have been familiar with the English versions of their names.

        I can’t quite get my head round Eliza, if it was her, switching or allowing the different spellings of her name. She may or may not have known that three different spellings refer to three separate tribes of a similar name – McGee from Donegal, Magee from East Ulster and McGhee from a a specific small part of Donegal. The names were not interchangeable. However, she may have got tired correcting spellings and have let it go, just as I rarely collect the usual mis-spellings of my name as McFarland rather than MacFarlane.

        As regards Doherty or Dougherty, the former is the Catholic spelling, the second is Protestant. It is not likely a Protestant would let that mis-spelling go uncorrected.

  123. Eileen Breen

    November 24, 2012 at 3:28 am

    FFT: I quickly looked at all our hints from our trees. So far, nothing is jumping out at me except Aikens, Shaw families and the McClay family. What if we expanded our stories to other ships that passed through Philadelphia’s Lazaretta immigrant station? So far we did a pairing of two family members. What if we could find a single person’s story, a whole family’s story or other pairing within a family. Or find a story that talks about immigration in 1860s, 1880s, 1900s and a present day story. Then we could talk about what was happening during these time periods in US and Ireland: economically, politically, socially, public perception of immigrants, reasons for immigration, types of occupations and the rise up the social ladder, importance of education, Irish roles in America? Maybe we could search family trees on Ancestry for an interesting story?

    • Don MacFarlane

      November 24, 2012 at 8:14 am

      I think we would be better drilling down with what we have instead of spreading the net. You have put a lot of work into the family trees and you have had a few bites, yes, but I am sure ‘making haste slowly’ will bring rewards. It had crossed my mind that the Lazaretto Station might keep records but strangely I don’t think they did. Philly decided against using it as a quarantine station for cholera but there would have been other killer epidemics at the time such as measles, influenza, typhus and smallpox. So why no records? BTW, did Duffy have to go to Lazaretto or did emigrants disembark at the port? Or did just the ships that were known to carry diseased passengers stop off there? In other words, was it just left to the initiative and judgment of the ships’ captains? Or did the ships all carry a surgeon? Seems unlikely but the Australian ships did all carry medical support. It seems to have been all very much more laid-back than at Grosse Isle.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 24, 2012 at 11:15 am

        I looked at the Duffy’s Cut memorial at Laurel Hill, West Bala, PA. All of those listed were from the John Stamp. The name, as Mary said, Bernie McGarty or a variation of that name doesn’t exist on the original manifest (John Stamp or the other trees we have). The only other Bernie on the John Stamp is Bernard O’Neill who was aged 25, traveling with two other O’Neills. The two women, Elizabeth Devin and Catharine Burns, are also from the John Stamp. I can’t imagine why they would want to live in the woods with all these men in a shack. Elizabeth Devin had a son, John Devin, aged one who was also at Duffy’s cut and who was the only child on the memorial. I’m confused by Bernard O’Neill (25) as he is the only male non-laborer. Why not his brother Daniel who was 18. Both were listed as students. Age 18 and 25 seems a little old to be students for this time period. Perhaps they were more financially secure. Most poor men stopped their education at an early age to help support their families and did so by age 11. Also John Burns was 70. He seems to have been at the age of retirement and not a laborer.

        They didn’t seem to be concerned with the laborers from the Prudence. The only thing I can think of is that they found John Ruddy (tooth anomaly) and decided he was from Donegal. All the other entries are from Donegal except McCahill, McAnany and Catherine Burns are from Tyrone. Perhaps the people were decided by how old they looked at the time of death. They were considered non-citizens, there were no death or naturalization records. there were multiple entries for each name in Philadelphia and surrounding communities and in city directories. The number 57 equals the number of laborers from The John Stamp and the Prudence. Phillip Duffy said the number was between 57-59. No other laborers were on the other two ships except one on the Ontario (I think).

        I saw a video on UTUBE: Based on a research project: Madness, Migration And The Irish In Lancashire (Liverpool, England) 1852-1921. The conditions reminded me of the Irish in Philadelphia during the same period. The project researched mental health among Irish emigrants to Liverpool. It examined “disease, poverty, intemperance, stereotypes and social dislocation.” The study looked at how the Irish ended up in asylums. In Liverpool there was a large asylum system containing four asylums.

        Conditions in Liverpool that may have predicated the Irish being subjected to being institutionalized included: overcrowding in Liverpool; the Irish were seen as responsible for the evils in the society; there was a rise in “pauperism, violence and crime; there were outbreaks of disease, decrease in wages, sectarian violence and political tensions which paralleled outbreaks of Typhus and Cholera; Asylums were overcrowded.”

        The study examined the attitudes toward the Irish. The lay people, press and medical community used harsh terms to describe the Irish as “lunatics”. The Irish were seen as having high levels of “insanity”. They were viewed as being “susceptible to mental illness and as a result vulnerable to psychiatric intervention.” Alcoholism was identified as the major cause of insanity. In the press they portrayed the Irish as being a burden to the taxpayers. In society, the Irish were viewed as “ould Ireland’s demented children.”

        Laymen further felt that the rising number of patients with mental illness was a gloomy prognosis for the Irish people as a whole. In 1847 there were hospitals that contained three hundred patients with mental health issues. By 1870, there was an increased level of anxiety concerning Irish emigrants’ state of health and overcrowding. In Liverpool, they had built an additional building to house over 1,000 patients. Some in the lay community saw the Irish as a burden and others saw them as experiencing stress from the emigration.

        An Irish woman could be institutionalized for being single or widowed. Often they were domestic servants who lived in the home where they worked. Once they were seen as not being able to fulfill their duties they would be sent to work and live in a workhouse. If that didn’t pan out they would be sent to an asylum. Some patients were admitted for melancholia, malnourishment, delusional states and weakness. Some patients committed crimes and were convicted to seven years in the institution.

        During the 19th to 20th centuries there was a higher rate of mental illness among ethnic groups. This may have been due to disease, poverty, substance abuse, crime, lack of a social network from family and friends. Stereotypes may have contributed towards the feelings of isolation and poor self-esteem.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 24, 2012 at 12:49 pm

        Two women, Elizabeth Diven and Catharine Burns are on the headstone. Elizabeth Diven aged twenty, John Diven her son aged one “son of the above” as marked on the manifest. and William Diven aged twenty one, a laborer, are all on the headstone. They are grouped together by a bracket. Catherine is listed with John Burns, aged seventy. I forgot her age but she is much younger and she is a widow. Either she is his daughter, niece, or a daughter-in-law. All the people on the memorial were from the John Stamp.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 24, 2012 at 9:44 pm

        Could you forward me the URL for that as there are quite a few Youtubes for the Cut.

        The one I looked at had Paddy Fitzgerald searching the passenger list for the John Stamp and I notice the Mahons were down as having come from Leitrim. I had spotted that before then forgotten about it, so clearly the emigrants came from further afield than Ulster – something we had expected of course. The Mahons appear to have come from the most southerly part of the county, bounded by the River Shannon to the West and Lough Allen to the North. The Third Earl of Leitrim was murdered while going about his business in Donegal

        The Second Earl had possession of the land when the Mahons left Leitrim and he seems not to have taken much heed of the increasingly dire condition of his tenants.

  124. Mary Cornell

    November 23, 2012 at 8:55 pm

    Getting ready to delve into the McElroy directories, but I wanted to comment on one of your statements, Don. Eliminating names because the job level seems to be above the skill level they had when they arrived, bothered me. The statement strikes me as being a little ‘elitist.’ If we are talking about occupations of doctors, lawyers etc., I agree with their elimination. I would also agree if we are talking about opportunity and education that was not available to them in Ireland.

    These men were labourers and farmers in Ireland out of necessity and lack of opportunity, not from lack of intelligence. Are you saying five years was not enough time to improve their station in life? Are you saying that in five years they could not have educated themselves or gained experience to improve their lives? I thought the main motive of immigrating to America was for the opportunities that were not available in Ireland. The ambitious ones would have been able to move up the economic ladder and some could have done it fairly quickly. If we use this criteria, Philip Duffy would have been eliminated because of his financial success.

    • Don MacFarlane

      November 23, 2012 at 9:07 pm

      In principle, I am with you on this one, the only issue is about time-trajectory for self-advancement. The criteria I was applying was along the lines of

      In the days of no higher education except for the wealthy, pulling oneself up by the bootstraps more than two levels in five years would be truly remarkable even in today’s terms?

      • Eileen Breen

        November 24, 2012 at 12:01 am

        What measures success? The mere fact that one could feed one’s family would deem a father successful in the nineteenth century America and Ireland. My G-G grandfather had 8 living children and a wife plus 3 nephews to support on a machinist’s salary. There was no extra money for a luxury like education. His sons all worked in the mills by 10 years of age or earlier. My Grandfather did slightly better by getting out of the mills and into a supervisor’s position but w/ a 6th grade education he wasn’t ascending to the fast track of success. By by mothers generation she did finish high school and a secretarial class.

        It wasn’t until my generation that my brother and sisters had the opportunity to go to college. This would not have happened unless the other generations of my family paved the way. I think the ladder of opportunity is more insidious. We hear about people like Andrew Carnegie rising up the ladder quickly and becoming financially successful but in reality he and his family came from a lower class neighborhood Scotland. He and his family immigrated to Pennsylvania and lived in the tenements in Pennsylvania. He worked up the ranks in a rail road company and had a drive to be successful. Within his lifetime became one of the financially independent businessman in US. He also gave millions of dollars to many charities including starting the first free library in the US.

        Factors such as Poverty, opportunities for education, raising the literacy rate and equal access to education and resources at the elementary and high school level so one can be at the appropriate grade level. Encouraging people to further their education at a college level or higher education. Further, childcare, support of family and the financial support of government loans to help pay for an education or to start a business allow one to support himself and his family. In turn, it places the family in a financially stable environment and builds one’s self esteem. These elements were not available in the 1800’s to early 1900’s in America. As costs for education keep rising, the opportunities for education and keeping people out of poverty will continue to be a challenge in the 21st century.

        This past election season was seen as the most expensive senate and presidential race in US history. The Republicans and Democrats spent over 80 million to get one senator elected. If we could spend that on education for equal opportunities for education and low interest loans for students we could greatly increase the literacy rate and provide opportunities for commerce, jobs and future educational opportunities in US and worldwide.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 24, 2012 at 11:51 am

        He’s Skelton on the headstone. Skilton was in a family tree on ancestry. I don’t think we had any other successes with the name except for a few possibilities. You thought the name Skilton might not be a name found in Ireland? It’s interesting Mary found names in McElroy and the occupations were different. Would this rule them out or not? Also they could have changed careers depending on the availability of jobs. McElroy is later (1837/1843). If we found the city directory to match the name, new occupation or if we saw a change in occupation we might have something. A lot of times the father passed his occupation to his son. The son would work as an apprentice and you can see the job change in the son but usually in the same field of work.

  125. Don MacFarlane

    November 23, 2012 at 10:16 am

    I have had a first look at the McElroy Directories and have entered data into the spreadsheet.

    For 1837, I have left out any names that fitted but where occupations were at higher a level of skill than one would expect from young, newly arrived and unskilled emigrants from Ireland. For 1864, I have allowed a bit more license (but not much) to allow for emigrants who were well settled to have become better established and to have picked up a bunch of new skills, provided the economic shift was not a shift of more than two levels of economic status. I have not got round yet to the intervening years which could throw more light.

    I’m sure even what is there already will be of some interest and will get my braincells working a bit better. BTW, two of the names on the headstone have cropped up in the Directory.

  126. Mary Cornell

    November 22, 2012 at 6:02 pm

    To be honest, I began using Ancestry simply as a guide to find the names in other places. With the more common names, it refuses to use the filters I give it, so it spits out hundreds of names. On the other side of the spectrum, other names will only show one or two possibilities, none that matches the information I had input. The choices you have given happen to be the names that I have been unable to find any information on in Ancestry.

    For census research, I prefer to use Heritage Quest. The only bad side is that the 1830, 1840 and 1850 Censuses are not indexed, but this is where I use Ancestry to give me specifics where to browse or if I can find a name in a later census, I can backtrack. The reason why I like Heritage Quest is that even though it is exact match only, you can search last name only, first name only or no name at all. The advanced search lets you narrow down the possibilities to a manageable amount. This is how I was able to find a few of the mis-indexed or misspelled names.

    One caution with family trees. There are a few researchers who may not have been as thorough as they should have been in following their trees back or there are wrong assumptions made on their findings. I know from first-hand experience with my husband’s family tree that once one wrong connection is made, it is continued through the following branches. Because I knew the family connections, I was immediately aware of the mistakes that were made and why they were made, but what of those who are not aware of a family history. So, right now half of my husband’s family are on several trees where they have no relationship to anyone on the tree. Just cautioning that one wrong turn on a tree makes subsequent entries wrong.

    I get the feeling there is a bit of subterfuge going on with the Watsons in the correspondence with you, Don. As for their research, any halfway-competent genealogist would have found the Bernard McGarrity mistake in the first go-round. Their ‘research’ seems to be superficial, at best. Harsh, I suppose, but I would expect better from academia. The men of the ‘Cut’ deserve better.

    BTW You would not have done the same. Your integrity would not have allowed it.

  127. Eileen Breen

    November 21, 2012 at 2:42 am

    FFT: For the Campbell / Shaw story:

    I was thinking their story reminds me of a Robert Frost poem, ‘The Road Not Taken’.

    From the last part of the poem:
    I shall be telling this with a sigh
    Somewhere ages and ages hence;
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
    I took the one less traveled by
    and that has made all the difference

    Perhaps the title of the article could be ‘The Road Not Taken’ or ‘The Road Less Traveled’. This family chose not to stay in Philadelphia but moved into the Frontier where there was little protection from the Government. Two months prior to their arrival there was the Black Hawk War when the Black Hawk Indians fought against settlers to reclaim their land. This must have been a difficult decision, first to leave Ireland, then to leave the comfort a city could provide and move into the wilderness where it was a hostile environment. Illinois was not so much an Irish settlement as a mixture of cultures, religions and occupations.

    I’m not sure if the focus should be on the causes for immigration, choosing a new path, the Governments position on helping those of all income levels to own land. I’m not sure if we have enough for an article but f someone wants to write it they can. It could also be paired with the Rebecca Stewart/McClay story where they chose a different path: to return to Ireland.

    Mary what would you like to write about? Do you want to do the next article and I’ll stay quiet!

  128. Eileen Breen

    November 20, 2012 at 10:40 pm

    Charles McQuillin was Roseanna and thomas McQuillin’s third son. He was born in 1838 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and he had four brothers and a sister. At age eleven he and his brother Thomas aged five were sent to live with Archibald and Isabell Scott, who were relatives, because their parents died at an early age. His other siblings were also sent to live with relatives. He married his cousin Ellen Stinson and they had four children. He was a plaster by trade like his father and he enlisted in the Union Army on 1 Sept 1861. His regiment was the 1st Missouri, Company K, Light Artillery and he entered the service as a private. By war’s end he was elevated to the rank of corporal.

    Missouri was a border state and it sent men to armies on both the Confederate and Union sides. Over 110,000 men were in the Union forces and there were 40,000 Confederate soldiers. As soldiers died, injured or were missing soldiers were combined with other militias. The 1st Missouri Light Artillery Battery served in regiments in Missouri and Alabama. In a Civil War Pension application that he filed he was declared as an invalid.

    During the Civil War his regiment fought in many battles in Tennessee and Mississippi. The most noted was The Battle Of Shiloh in Tennessee on 4-7 April 1862. This was seen at one of the costliest battles of the American Civil War. Union forces declared 754 men were killed in action, 8,408 were wounded and 2,885 union soldiers were missing. The Confederate troops counted 1,728 men killed, 8012 soldiers were wounded and 959 men were missing or captured. Union General Grant was seen as unprepared for this battle and the Confederate forces took the Union troops by surprise. Union forces were bayoneted in their tents as they slept and Northern newspapers did not portray Grant in a positive light. Demands for his resignation flooded Lincoln’s White House but President Lincoln dismissed their pleas. Grant pulled off a victory the following day which redeemed him and by the summer of 1863 Union forces were in control of the Mississippi River, a vital waterway.

    Charles McQuillin served two years and nine months in the 1st Missouri. He mustered out of service on 3 January 1864 and returned to his family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

  129. londonderry

    November 19, 2012 at 2:38 pm

    Eileen, sorry for the delay…..I have been searching for my Baird book and I just found it today. The bottom line is that I cannot find David Baird per se but I believe that there is a high likelihood that he could be related to my Baird clan. Here is what I know. I have a James P. Baird born in 1749 in Derry County who emigrated in 1782 and died on April 18, 1829. He is buried in our Barnett family cemetery in Hartford, Ohio Cy, Kentucky.

    Baird is a fairly common Ulster name, especially in Derry, and one closely associated with other names in our tree. My theory is that David Baird of Duffy Cut was in the second wave of emigrants from Ulster ports like Derry. The initial wave in the 1700s followed a general route of Derry, Dover, Pa, Va (down the Dunmore Rd —I81 or Shenandoah Valley), then on to Kentucky, getting land as a reward for serving in the Revolutionary War and Points West.

    These were pretty nuclear families travelling together and following preachers like Reverend Craighead. Not wealthy but not poor either. To me it seems that later in the second wave those on the ships you all are working on opcame separately when they heard of opportunities available in America. Their route was from the eastern ports more directly west since the Indians were pushed back from the French-Indian Wars, then the Revolutionary War and land became available. These were often poorer people ready to trade their hard labor for getting out of Ulster conditions. In my mind the waves were not homogeneous. I am going to do some research on the Dover port which is just south of the Philadelphia port. Mary’s recent post on the quarantine station was intriguing and got me thinking.

    I am having trouble opening the Ancestry trees you sent me last week. Any suggestions?

  130. Eileen Breen

    November 19, 2012 at 2:03 am

    Thomas McQuillin from County Antrim, Ireland and Roseanne Diamond from County Derry, Ireland, married 29 November 1828 in St Patrick’s RC Church, Ballinderry Chapel in County Derry, Ireland. Thomas McQuillin a weaver, immigrated from Derry, Ireland in 1830 to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, leaving his wife and first born son, John. Their son was baptized in Aghalee, Antrim.

    In April 1832, the family set sail on the barque John Stamp. The ship was a three-mast ship constructed before the age of steam and the journey across the Atlantic took two months. Roseanna Diamond McQuillin traveled with her two year old son John, and possibly a brother, Adam Diamond, were recorded on the ship manifest. He was a laborer. and the family of Roseanna Diamond McQuillin record his name as John Diamond. There are multiple records for this name but a personal story later on states his name is John.

    The barque John Stamp arrived in Philadelphia on the 23Rrd of June 1832. Roseanna reunited with her husband in Philadelphia and they had four more children. They lived in the Kennsington Ward 3 neighborhood in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and they practised their faith in St Michael’s RC Church. She was committed three times in the Blockly Almshouse for a period of three years due to a psychiatric illness. During the second commitment she eloped from the institution and her brother John put an ad in the local paper to try to locate his sister. Records don’t indicate how long she was missing but a third commitment was recorded after this event.

    (I need to add more details to this section)

    • Eileen Breen

      November 19, 2012 at 2:50 am

      Ships coming into Philadelphia entered the Lazaretta Quarantine Station. The series of buildings and a cemetery were a century older than Ellis Island in NY and it lay on the banks of the Delaware River. It was a port of entry into the U.S. from 1643-1893. The original building erected in 1799 still remains on the property. These buildings stand as a reflection and monument to the millions of immigrants who passed through these doors. Those who were too ill to enter the U.S. remained in its hospital, were quarantined or died there. Those that were healthy were given a medical exam and were allowed to enter the United States. One out of three Americans came through this port.

      Blockly Almshouse is where Roseanna Diamond McQuillin died in the “Insane Unit” on 16 July 1849 from Asiatic Cholera. This was during the third Cholera pandemic in Philadelphia in July 1849 and she was 48 years old. Located in West Philadelphia, this institution was a charity, poorhouse, orphanage and insane asylum. There is a memorial dedicated to those who died here which reads: “Here rest the remains of 437 persons removed from the former burial ground of the City Of Philadelphia’s Blockly Almshouse from 1835-1888. Discovered in 2001 during excavation for construction at S.E. corner of University Ave and Civic Center Boulevard”.

      On an Ancestry site I found the family tree of Roseanna Diamond McQuillin which belongs to her great- granddaughter. She spoke of trying to locate any information about her great-great grandmother. There are no photographs of her but there are some of her children. There are a few census records and information that she located in the hospital records of the Blockly Almshouse. She does not know where she is buried but feels she may be located in the Blockly cemetery on the hospital property, now removed to a local cemetery in 2001.

      She also had the article from Roseanne’s brother, John, who put an advertisement in a Philadelphia paper that described her as missing and what she was wearing. Also often noted in Blockly records if a woman was hospitalized with her children was whether there was no one to care for them. Roseanne’s husband died seven months prior to her death from dysentery and their children were divided among family members. In one census a son age eleven was listed as a farmer.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 19, 2012 at 2:05 pm

        Duffy Template

        I have rejigged the template so that it should jump out of the page what we know versus what we don’t yet know.

        The first sheet has the Stamp passengers highlighted in yellow across the rows. If it is a male labourer the yellow line goes all the way across, male but not labourer goes two thirds across, non-male or juvenile goes one third across.

        Duffys Cut workers on the headstone are highlighted in orange.
        White spaces mean missing or dubious information.

        I have next to nothing from Ancestry as I can make no headway with that. Eileen seems to be very skilled in Ancestry and any info given to me as a batch will be transferred onto the spreadsheet whenever received. I anticipate that the big blank spaces will have to be substantially filled, through dogged enquiry, triple checking and hunches before we make a breakthrough here.

      • Don MacFarlane

        November 19, 2012 at 4:37 pm

        Another one down, this time from the Asia:

        I’ll chase these ones down for more details.

      • Eileen Breen

        November 19, 2012 at 2:14 pm

        Philadelphia Public Ledger on 26 Oct 1846 Advertisement.

        Placed by John Diamond, Roseanne Diamond McQuiilin’s brother.

        ‘Anyone giving information on Mrs. Roseanna McQuillin will confer a favor on her distressed brother, John Diamond. She left the Insane Hospital on the 9th inst., had on a leghorn bonnet, yellow ribbons, light shawl with dark borders, dark calico frock, check apron and a bundle in her hand. She is a large-sized woman, swarthy complexion, and her teeth set thin. Any person knowing anything of her will please address a few lines to her brother, John Diamond, corner of 2nd and Jefferson streets, Kensington. County papers would do an act of goodness